Konami Sues Harmonix Over Patents Possibly Illegally Used in Rock Band

[AgtFox]

The link is from Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/10/konami-lodges-patent-suit-against-harmonix-mtv-over-rock-band/), the original story is from Bloomberg News (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aHQODoKwFYrA&refer=japan). Konami has sued Harmonix for patent infringment via Rock Band in Texas Federal Court. Viacom/MTV/Harmonix have not commented yet as they have not received the court papers as of yet. Here's a part of the story:

The Konami patents, issued in 2002 and 2003, relate to simulated musical instruments, a music-game system and a "musical-rhythm matching game.''

...

Konami is demanding cash compensation, plus an order that would block Viacom and Harmonix from using the inventions, according to the complaint, filed yesterday in federal court in Marshall, Texas.
Konami had the Japanese-only game Guitar Freaks that had instruments and helped in the creation of Guitar Hero and Rock Band, both originally created by Harmonix. Konami also has an upcoming game called Rock Revolution coming to multiple systems this fall that will include instruments and they had recently asked for cross-compatibility via instruments with both Guitar Hero and Rock Band. In other news, Activision supposedly licensed these patents for use in Guitar Hero III. Big shout out goes to subscriber Ondo for clueing us into this newstory (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16014) talking about it from Gamasutra.

[TheFlyingOrc]

BOO! Go after Guitar Hero instead, they've got way more money to steal and don't understand music.

[pseudopseudo]

Funny how they wait until the first Rock Band has made two metric assloads of money, and the second is a few months away from coming out.

I'm saying this purely out of spite... but fuck off, Konami.

[Talon-]

Well, Harmonix created the Guitar Hero Franchise.

Konami has reason to be bitter, but they have no one to blame but themselves, specifically Konami of America for being short-sighted and overly conservative with their -mania line of games.

[jeffbax]

Konami can fuck off. Their game sounds horrendous and its their own fault for sitting on their asses.

[AgtFox]

Well, Harmonix created the Guitar Hero Franchise.
Yes, but Red Octane created the instruments Guitar Hero was played with which is evidently the patents Konami is summoning.

[Talon-]

Konami can fuck off. Their game sounds horrendous and its their own fault for sitting on their asses.

Prepare for the gaming public to collectively roll their eyes at Konami.

[Nazriel]

I'm saying this purely out of spite... but fuck off, Konami.

I am an EvAv reader and I approve of this message.

Go after Guitar Hero instead, they've got way more money to steal and don't understand music.

And this one as well.

It does seem a teensy bit late in the game for this idiocy. Maybe it would be better if lawsuits were played out like penalties in football. You can't ask for a referee to check the replay on something that happened three plays ago; let alone what happened last season. :D

[Talon-]

Yes, but Red Octane created the instruments Guitar Hero was played with which is evidently the patents Konami is summoning.

First of all, I'm sure Neversoft and Red Octane will be dragged into the mud at some point. Harmonix is the origin of the (much improved) concept, and it makes sense for Konami to go after them first. Second of all:

Bloomberg News
The Konami patents, issued in 2002 and 2003, relate to simulated musical instruments, a music-game system and a "musical-rhythm matching game.''

[Ondo]

Maybe this is just the first action Konami is taking and they're going to go after Activision/Red Octane/Neversoft next with Guitar Hero.
Actually, Activision apparently licensed the patents from Konami before Guitar Hero III was released - see this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16014) on Gamasutra. (Mentioned in Game | Life's coverage here (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/konami-sues-har.html).)

[TrackZero]

Nice work Konami. Guess you don't want me to buy any of your games in the future.

[Nazriel]

The Konami patents, issued in 2002 and 2003, relate to simulated musical instruments, a music-game system and a "musical-rhythm matching game.''

Just imagine if id Software had a patent on "first-person action games" from Wolfenstein 3D.

They could just sue half of all game companies since 1992 through the present right now and claim billions of damages!


Any time patents are brought up in gaming news, they only seem to be examples of how the patent system just seems to bog down our judicial system. *sigh*

[Talon-]

Actually, Activision apparently licensed the patents from Konami before Guitar Hero III was released - see this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16014) on Gamasutra. (Mentioned in Game | Life's coverage here (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/konami-sues-har.html).)

Well, in that case we've got to believe that Viacom would've looked into similar preventive measures.

Viacom. Konami. FIGHT!

[Talon-]

Just imagine if id Software had a patent on "first-person action games" from Wolfenstein 3D.

They could just sue half of all game companies since 1992 through the present right now and claim billions of damages!


Any time patents are brought up in gaming news, they only seem to be examples of how the patent system just seems to bog down our judicial system. *sigh*

Funny thing is that John Carmack feels the exact same way that you do about patents.

[Wolvie]

If Konami had sued Harmonix back when the first Guitar Hero came out I wouldn't have a problem. But waiting this long, after two competing games have been out and raking in tons of cash? Sorry Konami, this is just a shameless money grab and you know it. It also smacks of sour grapes.

Oh and I agree, Konami can fuck right off.

[mister_slim]

Harmonix has a number of patents of their own. I wonder if Konami is still licensing Harmonix's patents for Karaoke Revolution?

[Philonious]

I had heard Activision liscensed the idea, so there is no need for a suit. As for why would they wait? Well because they weren't competing with the previous versions of the games, now that they are entering the North American marketplace it would kind of suck to get beaten out by someone who blatantly ripped off their ideas. I doun't think anyone can argue that Harmonix was unaware of the Konami games, and depending on how similar Guitar Hero/Rockband is to guitar Freaks, Drum Mania, etc, they might have a case.

[AgtFox]

Actually, Activision apparently licensed the patents from Konami before Guitar Hero III was released - see this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16014) on Gamasutra. (Mentioned in Game | Life's coverage here (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/konami-sues-har.html).)
Thanks for this, I did not know. I am going to change the OP with this info and give you credit.

[Heretic Machine]

This is really one of the few cases where a patent suit that has been covered on this site really seems right to me. You might not like what it does for gaming as a whole, or one of your favorite franchises, but you cannot deny that Konami has a pretty valid complaint here.

Anyhow, they're basically suing EA, so it'll probably be settled out of court.

[AgtFox]

Anyhow, they're basically suing EA, so it'll probably be settled out of court.
Actually, EA has nothing to do with it. Viacom, MTV and Harmonix are the stated companies. EA only distributes the game in this case, much like Activision does with most id properties.

EA does not own Viacom, MTV or Harmoinx and the heirarchy goes in that order: Viacom owns MTV, which purchased Harmonix.

[Heretic Machine]

Actually, EA has nothing to do with it. Viacom, MTV and Harmonix are the stated companies. EA only distributes the game in this case, much like Activision does with most id properties.

EA does not own Viacom, MTV or Harmoinx and the heirarchy goes in that order: Viacom owns MTV, which purchased Harmonix.

Ahh, hm, I must have forgotten how it all went down then. I was thinking that EA bought Harmonix.

Anyhow, that just makes it even more likely that it'll be settled out of court.

[Norse]

I hope Konami wins and becomes the only developer of rythm games with instruments. With the shitty games they make the genre will die a horrible death. Excellent!

[Derella]

I hate music games. I hate overly general patents even more.

[Kem0sabe]

If they knowingly infringed on patents, then i agree that they should face consequences for it. Intellectual property is something i value very much, especially when you cut corners by using other peoples work to develop your own.

[Wilkz07]

konami with their hand out. they should get jack thompson to represent them... oh wait, didn't he get disbarred?

[Sl1pstream]

Why am I not surprised that they're doing this now that they've announced a similar game that's released outside of Japan? They had guitar freaks, drum mania and karaoke revolution and they haven't said a thing all these years. Now that Rock Band is getting a JP release and they're trying to sell us Rock Revolution, they're going to sue HMX?

Fuck you Konami!

While I don't consider myself a Harmonix fanboy, I seem to keep picking up new tracks almost every week. I've invested more time into Rock Band than any other game in the last few years (except for maybe CoD4). If this is Konami's plan to get rid of the competition, I'm going to stop buying their games.

[Heretic Machine]

If they knowingly infringed on patents, then i agree that they should face consequences for it. Intellectual property is something i value very much, especially when you cut corners by using other peoples work to develop your own.

The level at which they're being ripped off is pretty blatant.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Gfv3anddmv3.jpg

[Sl1pstream]

The level at which they're being ripped off is pretty blatant.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Gfv3anddmv3.jpg

Then why didn't they say anything in 2005, when Guitar Hero got released? Or near the start of 2007, when Rock Band got announced?

Now that HMX is working together with Q? to bring Rock Band to Japan and now that Konami is trying to bring a game to western consoles, they're doing this. If they were really interested in patent infringement, they would've said something a long time ago. Now it just looks like they're trying to get rid of the competition.

[MosBen]

Look, I'm about as big a Harmonix fanboy as there is, but I'm also a lawyer and I know just enough about intellectual property law to know that it's a complex area of law and I hardly know anything about. It certainly isn't as simple as some here seem to think. Also, there are lots of reasons why a suit may not be filed immediately after a party is harmed. In environmental law a suit might not be filed because the government tries to work with the offender to get the site cleared up. In a personal injury matter the injured party may need extensive medical care to prove a permanent injury has been sustained.

The long and short of it is that while we all want to jump in with out own opinions, the courts will handle this better any all of us put together. That's what they're there for and by and large they do a good job.

[Kem0sabe]

Then why didn't they say anything in 2005, when Guitar Hero got released? Or near the start of 2007, when Rock Band got announced?

Now that HMX is working together with Q? to bring Rock Band to Japan and now that Konami is trying to bring a game to western consoles, they're doing this. If they were really interested in patent infringement, they would've said something a long time ago. Now it just looks like they're trying to get rid of the competition.

Even so, its still patent infringement, and the way i see it, HMX knowingly stealing Konami's I&D is the worst of both actions. I agree that its a business tactic, to sue them so late, but the fault is not theirs in the first place.

[Deadend]

Software patents are bullshit.

[protocol_image]

The long and short of it is that while we all want to jump in with out own opinions, the courts will handle this better any all of us put together. That's what they're there for and by and large they do a good job.

I just want to say two initials and a last name....O....J.....Simpson

But seriously, I agree with you :)

[protocol_image]

Software patents are bullshit.

are you communist?

[asimonk]

are you communist?

What does that have to do with anything? Most software patents are in fact, bullshit. Amazon's One-Click™ shopping (I love Amazon); Eolas patenting hyperlinking after the technology exists; I could go on for hours.

[Flatpicker]

Why am I not surprised that they're doing this now that they've announced a similar game that's released outside of Japan? They had guitar freaks, drum mania and karaoke revolution and they haven't said a thing all these years. Now that Rock Band is getting a JP release and they're trying to sell us Rock Revolution, they're going to sue HMX?

Fuck you Konami!

While I don't consider myself a Harmonix fanboy, I seem to keep picking up new tracks almost every week. I've invested more time into Rock Band than any other game in the last few years (except for maybe CoD4). If this is Konami's plan to get rid of the competition, I'm going to stop buying their games.

If Activision is paying for licenses from Konami and Harmonix didn't, it's more like "fuck you Harmonix!" for not doing your due diligence.

[Flatpicker]

Software patents are bullshit.
Hardware patents aren't. This is a combo package.

[Kem0sabe]

What does that have to do with anything? Most software patents are in fact, bullshit. Amazon's One-Click™ shopping (I love Amazon); Eolas patenting hyperlinking after the technology exists; I could go on for hours.

I think the problem here is related mainly to hardware patent infringement.

[Rommel]

Are these utility patents? If so, Konami has every right to sue.

[asimonk]

I think the problem here is related mainly to hardware patent infringement.

I was speaking towards the apparent proponent of software patents.

[MosBen]

And let's not go overboard, Harmonix may have acted in good faith believing that their product was different enough from Konami's that they didn't have to pay a licensing fee. So Konami will take Harmonix to court because they think it *does* infringe on their patent so a court will arbitrate the dispute. Trials don't always happen because someone acted maliciously. Sometimes you just need a judge to resolve a dispute.

[Flatpicker]

And let's not go overboard, Harmonix may have acted in good faith believing that their product was different enough from Konami's that they didn't have to pay a licensing fee. So Konami will take Harmonix to court because they think it *does* infringe on their patent so a court will arbitrate the dispute. Trials don't always happen because someone acted maliciously. Sometimes you just need a judge to resolve a dispute.

You're quite correct, but, people tend to take sides so either Konami or Harmonix will be considered dogshit in EA's eyes. ;)

[protocol_image]

What does that have to do with anything? Most software patents are in fact, bullshit. Amazon's One-Click™ shopping (I love Amazon); Eolas patenting hyperlinking after the technology exists; I could go on for hours.

so if you were to spend months/years coming up with a new way to do something in code that nobody is doing, you don't think that you should be able to patent that method? how does it being software make it any different from other business methods? should ALL software be open source? some think so.....which i liken to communism.....but that's just me

[MosBen]

Flatpicker, oh I know. What's the internet for other than porn and bitching about stuff, especially stuff you're not an expert in. So yes, down with Konami! Boycott anyone?!

[TheFlyingOrc]

As if Konami would ever have cashed in on the idea and made a lot of money.

Harmonix took Konami's idea and made it good by putting real music in the game. Drat it all, they didn't hurt Konami, even if Konami might have a leg to stand on legally.

[Aneurhythmia]

so if you were to spend months/years coming up with a new way to do something in code that nobody is doing, you don't think that you should be able to patent that method? how does it being software make it any different from other business methods? should ALL software be open source? some think so.....which i liken to communism.....but that's just me
Protecting specific code and restricting the function or task the code accomplishes are different things.

And removing market restrictions and controls is sort of the opposite of communism.

[Bahamut]

It does seem a teensy bit late in the game for this idiocy. Maybe it would be better if lawsuits were played out like penalties in football. You can't ask for a referee to check the replay on something that happened three plays ago; let alone what happened last season. :D

It takes time and a good deal of research/investigation for a company like Konami to decide whether to sue someone for copyright infringement.

The legal system does work somewhat like this for a good deal of things. However, asking for a timeframe of less than an year is unreasonable in the realm of business. In addition, patents have a limited lifespan. To point to an example, when Nintendo's patents related to the NES expired a few years ago, copycat consoles that could play NES cartridges started floating around legally.

[Rock Bandit]

Meh. Money-hats will be exchange, egos massaged, and then everythings back to status-quo.

Still a stupid situation. "Hey! We came up with a basic idea for a music-rythym game and you ran with it, improved it, and expanded it in ways we could never have imagined! You fiends! We were totally going to do that stuff you jerks. Uh, ignore the fact we were letting the original idea languish in Japanese arcades for years with no inkling to ever do anything more with it until we saw you guys raking in the cash hand over fist."

[Flatpicker]

Flatpicker, oh I know. What's the internet for other than porn and bitching about stuff, especially stuff you're not an expert in. So yes, down with Konami! Boycott anyone?!

Nah, boycott Harmonix. Or Boycott MTV!!! :D
No more MTV until they come out with MTVH (all hair metal, all the time.)

[asimonk]

so if you were to spend months/years coming up with a new way to do something in code that nobody is doing, you don't think that you should be able to patent that method? how does it being software make it any different from other business methods? should ALL software be open source? some think so.....which i liken to communism.....but that's just me

Um, I think your knowledge of software and by extension software patents is almost as bad as your ability to read. Where did I say anything about open source or that everything should be open source?

The problem with software patents is that they are typically applied in the broadest and most asinine ways. Imagine Microsoft patenting the functional concept of Word. Suddenly, any text editor, including the text box on these forums, falls into infringement.

If you are going to argue a point, at least have some idea as to what you are talking about. And since you brought up open source, there are multiple open source products/initiatives that make money, considerable amounts of money, most notably, IBM and Red Hat come immediately to mind.

[Talon-]

Harmonix took Konami's idea and made it good by putting real music in the game. Drat it all, they didn't hurt Konami, even if Konami might have a leg to stand on legally.

Actually, I'm pretty certain that the Konami games had at least some master tracks in them.

[Headcase]

In the past they successfully sued Roxor for In The Groove, which is basically DDR but better (according to me... in any case it was a lot like DDR).

Gonna be more difficult against the big guys. Hopefully they will fail and stop stifling an entire genre of gaming. IMO it's similar to if Id sues when more FPSs hit the market.

[Headcase]

The level at which they're being ripped off is pretty blatant.

I'll fight that point. Unlike with ITG\DDR, most of the similarities in this case can be attributed to the fact that they're simulating instruments. If GitaDora (Guitar Freaks\Drummania) didn't exist, Harmonix (maybe another company) would still come up with Rock Band, and it would still be pretty similar.

So IMO the argument is more about whether it's fair to hold a patent for a video game simulating an instrument. Yeah, it's clever, but it just feels to over-reaching to me. I would imagine that even before GitaDora there were probably some Musicians\Gamers who were already thinking about merging their two hobbies.

I think the guitar tilting is probably the most "rip-off" thing Harmonix did, though the mechanic is totally different (star power instead of "wailing bonus"). And they did hammer-ons, real versions of songs, 3d graphics... Rock Revolution will be all covers, 2d graphics, and for the love of god a separate column for the bass pedal?

Give Konami a monopoly over the rhythm genre, and it will revert to being the niche genre that only big nerds will play. I used to play a lot of Bemani but Rock Band has spoiled me so even if it were discontinued (yeah right), I still wouldn't play RR.

[Headcase]

Actually, I'm pretty certain that the Konami games had at least some master tracks in them.

You're right. This is especially true in DDR. In GitaDora (Guitar\Drums), I recall some master tracks but not many (not counting Konami Originals as master tracks). Beatmania has a ton of Konami Originals but I believe all the licenses are the real version (of course most of them are Japanese songs not known here). Admittedly, I have not played much of the newer GitaDora.

Apologies for triple posting.

[Zecon]

Flatpicker, oh I know. What's the internet for other than porn and bitching about stuff, especially stuff you're not an expert in. So yes, down with Konami! Boycott anyone?!

I would boycott them, if they had anything worth playing on my xbox.

[Venkman]

That drum kit for Guitar Hero 4 looks an awful lot like the Konami one.

Although, aren't "real" electronic drum sets basically exactly like that, too?

[Nazriel]

Hopefully this lawsuit will bring to light the absurd level of vague Konami's patent is at this point in time.

"Music/Rhythm" is a genre these days, what with Guitar Hero, Rock Band, Singstar, and Konami's old stuff like DDR; no different than Real-Time-Strategy or First-Person-Shooter in terms of having an encompassing definition of what makes it what it is.

To give Konami a win with this would not be too far removed from giving them a monopoly on an entire industry. Please see the lack of an umbrella patent on "using a mouse to simulate shooting a firearm" or other ingrained basics of the genres we've grown accustomed to in gaming this past decade.

There is simply no sense in awarding Konami a victory in this and it comes off as completely spiteful from the previously mentioned fact that Harmonix brought the genre to a level of awesome that Konami failed to bring; esp. in the States.

... I would hate to think what would happen if this occurred elsewhere. "Hey! You can't invent a car with better mileage than mine! I made a four-door sedan first!" :(

[Heretic Machine]

I'll fight that point. Unlike with ITG\DDR, most of the similarities in this case can be attributed to the fact that they're simulating instruments. If GitaDora (Guitar Freaks\Drummania) didn't exist, Harmonix (maybe another company) would still come up with Rock Band, and it would still be pretty similar.

...The guitar controllers are, essentially, identical. The buttons are placed/shaped the same way, the strumming mechanic is exactly the same with the same physical implimentation. I'm pretty sure there is more than one way you could go about making a guitar controller, and I don't think it's a mere coincidence that the Guitar Hero/Rock Band controllers look like perfect clones of the Guitar Freaks controllers.

Guitar Hero plays like an unofficial sequel to Guitar Freaks. It just builds on what was already there. American gamers like to say that it was really innovative because they like the franchises, but that just isn't the case.

[JediSanf]

If Konami was going after Red Octane/Harmonix they might have a chance. But this is EA/MTV/Harmonix. You do not fuck with EA's lawyers.

And while I haven't read the patent closely, it looks like a valid case could be made against it on the uniqueness condition.

[AgtFox]

If Konami was going after Red Octane/Harmonix they might have a chance. But this is EA/MTV/Harmonix. You do not fuck with EA's lawyers.

And while I haven't read the patent closely, it looks like a valid case could be made against it on the uniqueness condition.
Once again, EA only distributes the game and they are not named in the lawsuit. It is Viacom/MTV/Harmonix, take EA out of the equation.

[Nazriel]

...The guitar controllers are, essentially, identical. The buttons are placed/shaped the same way, the strumming mechanic is exactly the same with the same physical implimentation. I'm pretty sure there is more than one way you could go about making a guitar controller, and I don't think it's a mere coincidence that the Guitar Hero/Rock Band controllers look like perfect clones of the Guitar Freaks controllers.

This isn't too surprising as the Guitar Hero controllers were originally created by Red Octane, who prior to making the peripherals for Harmonix were largely focused on the DDR dance pad market. It isn't too surprising that Red Octane would have just looked at Konami again and go "yoink." :)

Once that was established, and after 2 GHs, Harmonix did their own thing and improved on the intuitive set up further. However, I'm not sure how much different you could get with guitar controller inputs to avoid falling undre an all-encompassing patent like Konami is trying to claim.

[inmostlight]

Once again, EA only distributes the game and they are not named in the lawsuit. It is Viacom/MTV/Harmonix, take EA out of the equation.

And in any case, I fear Viacom's lawyers far more than EA's. Look at what they're doing to Google, YouTube, and all our account info.

[JediSanf]

Once again, EA only distributes the game and they are not named in the lawsuit. It is Viacom/MTV/Harmonix, take EA out of the equation.

Fair point. My fault. Still looks like the patent might fail uniqueness.

[Rock Bandit]

MTV responds: (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1590762/20080711/id_0.jhtml)

"Konami's actions are extremely surprising," an MTV spokesperson said of the suit. "Unfortunately, successful products such as 'Rock Band' can often become targets for baseless litigation. We have substantial defenses to this claim and intend to vigorously defend it."

[mister_slim]

By "substantial defenses" I think they mean MTV and Harmonix have a fuckton of patents and will make this really messy.

[Sl1pstream]

What about Drumscape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_Drumscape)?

Devecka Enterprises president, John Devecka, is a consultant for Activision[3] which now owns all of Devecka Enterprises' US and international patents. All patents issued by the USPTO are presumed valid[4][5].

I feel an upcoming Activision lawsuit. :p

[Sl1pstream]

That drum kit for Guitar Hero 4 looks an awful lot like the Konami one.

Although, aren't "real" electronic drum sets basically exactly like that, too?

The thing is, that drum set isn't being made by Harmonix. It's set up to be a real electric drumset that can also be used in Rock Band 2. I'm pretty sure that Konami doesn't have a patent on those.

[Headcase]

...The guitar controllers are, essentially, identical. The buttons are placed/shaped the same way, the strumming mechanic is exactly the same with the same physical implimentation. I'm pretty sure there is more than one way you could go about making a guitar controller, and I don't think it's a mere coincidence that the Guitar Hero/Rock Band controllers look like perfect clones of the Guitar Freaks controllers.

Guitar Hero plays like an unofficial sequel to Guitar Freaks. It just builds on what was already there. American gamers like to say that it was really innovative because they like the franchises, but that just isn't the case.
Well, they needed to make something that could be pushed back in forth by either fingers or a pick. What we have in all the controllers is a little piece of plastic that can be moved back and forth with either fingers or a pick.

The only other thing I could think of is have an actual piece of guitar string that can sense when it is being plucked or something, which would be both harder for beginners and more expensive. Yes, I think the Guitar Hero guitar would be about the same if Guitar Freaks didn't exist.

Try to make an FPS that doesn't "build on" what's already in FPSs, you won't get far.

And yes, I think Harmonix did bring a fair share of innovation into the genre. I would not play a guitar game that doesn't have hammer-ons in this day and age. (Something that Konami should have been able to figure out on their own considering real guitarists do it, it requires no change to the hardware, and it improves the variety of the game considerably).