TF2: Demo Changes Incoming and More Trading Cards

[Varsity]

News from the frontlines! One TF2 fan received a lengthy reply (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699622) to a series of question he had sent to Robin Walker, including this nugget:
We agree that [stickies] are a little too overpowered right now. In fact, internally, we refer to them as “winbombs”. We haven’t reached a decision on what we’ll change yet, though.
They're also having a lot of fun making Meet the Pyro (which doesn't mean that it'll be next out, I should make clear).

On top of that, two more of Valve's trading cards have been posted on the TF2 Blog (http://teamfortress.com/post.php?id=1678). Which you already knew about because you were subscribed to its feed (http://teamfortress.com/rss.xml), right?

http://teamfortress.com/images/posts/heavy_back_thumb.jpg http://teamfortress.com/images/posts/heavy_front_thumb.jpg (http://teamfortress.com/post.php?id=1678)

[Varsity]

Here's what I hate about America: Capping Up All News Headlines All The Time. Nnnngh!

[Sazime]

Here's what I hate about America: Capping Up All News Headlines All The Time. Nnnngh!
Mwahaha! Deal with it! It's English (http://www.rasmusen.org/w/capitalization.htm")!

[Katslover]

Here's what I hate about America: Capping Up All News Headlines All the Time. Nnnngh!

Fix'd that for ya!

The only real way I can see to balance the stickies is to limit the amount that can be on the field at once (or do they already do this?).

[KamaItachi]

Fix'd that for ya!

The only real way I can see to balance the stickies is to limit the amount that can be on the field at once (or do they already do this?).

They do. You can only have a maximum of 8 on the field at once.

[alienchild]

I just realized that I've become a Valve fanboy.

I am also a hater og capitalized headlines.

[Varsity]

Mwahaha! Deal with it! It's English (http://www.rasmusen.org/w/capitalization.htm)!

It's American English. We cap up first letters and proper nouns only.

[Wackman3000]

I personally think they have nerfed the demo enough as it is.

There are plenty of options to disperse stickies; pyros can use their compression blast, soldier can chuck a rocket, opposing demomen can toss a sticky and move them all about etc...

Demoman is clearly a class that requires patience in regards to stickies and playing defensively, which is clearly my favorite class while defending the payload style maps.

While I agree that stickies can clear out a large portion of charging enemies when they are concentrated on a certain point but demoman are still very vulnerable to nearly every class if they are charging at them.

Personally I'd say leave the demoman as he is, or it you need to nerf him anymore, reduce his crit percentage for stickies, since I know anytime during setup time if I'm a demo I will continue to fire stickies until I have at least 3 crits laying on the ground.

I pray to whoever is up there that they dont fuck things up with demo. A solid demo on a defensive or offensive rush is a crucial aspect to the team, and to see him nerfed anymore than he has already been would just be nothing but disappointment to me.

[Varsity]

A solid demo on a defensive or offensive rush is a crucial aspect to the team

That's not a good thing.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Good post which I basically completely agree with.

Demo has already been nerfed three times, and I think he's possibly the most well balanced of all the classes. He doesn't need another nerf. Yes, stickies can take out 5+ people at once, but only if said people are completely oblivious to all the crap piling up beneath them or you get a very lucky crit and a lot of people on low hp.

The ROF is such that you can't spam them everywhere unless you've got a moment alone or are in setup time, and the delay between launching and being able to det them means plenty of forward thought needs to go into them if you're using them as one by one rockets (unless you're doing it at range and detting them midair above the enemy's head, in which case you're a sitting duck for a sniper, so balanced again).

To add to all that, the demo has almost no close range options that don't involve switching to melee or risking blowing yourself up.

Poor fella doesn't need a nerf, give him a break (and the ability to have pipes det on contact after one wall or ceiling bounce, like his "meet the" trailer).

[Kryopsis]

Don't tell me the Demoman is getting nerfed *again*! It's not exactly the easiest class to master and lobbing stickies to destroy engineer buildings is the point of being a Demoman, isn't it? It takes me less time as a Pyro to burn down the engineer, his sentry and dispenser as a Pyro than Demoman so I can't possibly see what's their problem with Stickies.

[Kryopsis]

Hm. Beat by Lon Lon Rabbit.

[BloodPack]

Its very noticeable how overpowered the demoman is when the entire defending team picks demoman and just lays the ground with explosives, its next to impossible to move forward as the attacking team.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Its very noticeable how overpowered the demoman is when the entire defending team picks demoman and just lays the ground with explosives, its next to impossible to move forward as the attacking team.

I've yet to see a successful team ever which was composed of entirely one class.

4 or 5 demos spamming pipes used to be hell for attackers when the pipes were det on contact, I agree, making it almost impossible to push forward, but a single uber can easily pass a sticky minefield, or even a single sacrificial scout, who with the double jump might even survive the blast if he's lucky, and will certainly allow the whole team to pass before the ground is freshly stickied due to the slow ROF.

[Varsity]

Most teams aren't that organised, Lon Lon. I've seen plenty of Demo and Engie only defences - sure it's theoretically possible to break them, but it just doesn't happen.

[mightbe]

Maybe on a pubbie sure. I doubt that shit would work too well on EvAv stocked servers.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Maybe on a pubbie sure. I doubt that shit would work too well on EvAv stocked servers.

Yeah, even on pubbies I've never seen a full team of the same class win, in over 250 hours of play (the exception being when the teams are only about 4 people a side).

Although, I only play Australian pubbies, so maybe we're just better players!

Joking, although everyone on SA says that goldrush rarely gets to stage 3 on US pubbies while all us Aussies agreed it gets there about 70% of the time on Aussie pubs.

[Vanthar]

I sort of agree.

The grenade launcher in a decent players hands is extremely powerful and should stay that way. It can 1-shot quite a few classes with a direct hit.

Stickies on the otherhand do MORE damage per and can be stacked up to 8 times. Nothing can survive 8 stickies short of an uber. Hell, I don't think anything can survive 4 stickies short of an uber. You can move them, but the imbalance is when someone is purely playing defense and puts them all on a ledge above you and nukes 2-3 people instantly. There is no retaliation there. It's simply a matter of not running into that demoman's hallway. If it's simply impossible to play against without an uber, isn't that like the definition of unbalanced?

I'm not sure what the fix is. Do you reduce the number that can be placed and reduce his defensive viability? Do you lower crit rate on them or damage and reduce those times when the demo is trying to kill someone a sticky at a time on the run? Maybe the blast radius should be lowered a bit so that something like a scout could theoretically run through them if the demo isn't on his toes.

[Varsity]

Someone on the Steam forums suggested that one sticky do 1/3 normal damage, two 2/3 and three or above normal (making the only advantage of eight stickies wider coverage). That would give people time to attack after the initial detonation, while still letting a Demo mount an effective defence. Crits would become much more important if that went ahead.

[Bahamut]

Don't tell me the Demoman is getting nerfed *again*! It's not exactly the easiest class to master and lobbing stickies to destroy engineer buildings is the point of being a Demoman, isn't it? It takes me less time as a Pyro to burn down the engineer, his sentry and dispenser as a Pyro than Demoman so I can't possibly see what's their problem with Stickies.

It's not the easiest class to master, but from what I can tell, those who master it are virtually unstoppable. As a soldier, I have a hard time killing those demos, as they play it just about to perfection.

[Citizen Philip]

Nerf Shamans.

[Sazime]

Nerf Shamans.
Frostshock!

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

There is no retaliation there. It's simply a matter of not running into that demoman's hallway. If it's simply impossible to play against without an uber, isn't that like the definition of unbalanced?


It varies with circumstance, but there are usually plenty of ways to get around it.

The thing is, the ROF of the stickies is so low that once he blows his trap (3+ stickies) he can't get another trap set up if there are more people coming immediately. This means that yes while he can lay a godly trap, it's only valid for one use before it needs a good bit of prep time to be ready again, that is, get the demo to blow the stickies just once and you can proceed.

The easiest but least efficient method is to just have someone be a sacrifice; run through and get the demo to trigger them. If you're doing this as blue, attacking, and are at spawn, the penalty isn't so great because you'll respawn in a few seconds very close by to where you died anyway. Deeper into the map it's a much heavier price to pay.

There's also obviously the methods of moving the stickies, with other explosives, airblast, or even bullet weapons (though not as easily).

You can also try and get the demo to trigger them early; for example by popping out, and quickly ducking back round the corner. If the stickes are on the other side of a 90 degree angle, they won't hit you at all, even if you're basically right there next to them. Other methods include, for example, what I occasionally do as blue engy behind the gates at startup; build a sentry RIGHT at the gate that the demo is stickying, then put my finger on the detonate building button and detonate it RIGHT as the gates open, and demos VERY often blow their stickies right away because they think they're going to get a free destruction. It's great to deny them their point and also make them waste their trap.

You can also send a cloaked spy round the corner to stab the demo.

Now I know all of these methods rely on the fact that you know that the demo/stickies are already there, which is not always the case, but really if your team is communicating properly, you should know after one or two deaths to the demo which hallways are currently being camped and know to avoid them or take one of the countermeasures I've listed above. No one complains that pyros can get a free kill on a low hp class because they camp round a corner waiting to ambush someone, so I don't see why it's unfair that a demo can wait to ambush too (he IS a defence class primarily) for one or two free kills before the enemy team has to adapt to him.

Basically, if you know a demo is round a corner, you have ways to beat him. If you know a pyro is right round a corner, most classes just plain can't proceed.

The other reason I find all this hate on stickies confusing is that I simply don't use them in the way people seem to be complaining about them that often. I think their best use is simply for area denial, like peppering the area just ahead of a cart checkpoint so red is too scared to come and stop the cart when we've almost checkpointed it; pipes are definitely my main weapon. But I guess that's just me.

[apollyonbob]

It varies with circumstance, but there are usually plenty of ways to get around it.
*snip!*

So, what you're saying is, it's not hard to get past a single demoman - so long as you're on a crack, well-coordinated team that's making sure to talk regularly so that you can come up with a plan.

I'd like to point out, that's not true of Scouts, Spies, Soldiers, Medics, Heavies, Snipers, or Pyros. Those guys you can just run into the room and kill.
And it's not true of Engineers either, if you have a Demoman :P

I mean the devs refer to stickies as "winbombs"

Clearly, there's some need for balance - maybe it's not a nerf. Maybe it's the other class upgrades - ala the Pyro getting the airblast. But I think it's pretty easy to argue the need for balance.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

So, what you're saying is, it's not hard to get past a single demoman - so long as you're on a crack, well-coordinated team that's making sure to talk regularly so that you can come up with a plan.

You need a single one person to do any of the things I mentioned to get past a demo, and then kill him. Even a medic can do it, because if he closes on the demo the demo is useless at close range, so they have equal chance at meleeing each other or the demo has a high chance of suicide if he tries to use his main weapons at that range.

The well coordinated team is needed just so that they don't stop running into the same trap over and over and over, and they notify you if there IS a trap in that area.

I agree with you on the balance issue, though.

Balance should be achieved by giving other classes new ways to get around tricky situations, not by just nerfing the classes that cause the problems.

[Jeff]

It's not the defensive side of the Demo that needs to be nerfed. I don't think anybody is claiming that. He's supposed to be awesome at defense. The problem is a large number of people use stickies as an offensive weapon.
My suggestion to fix it: Increase the number of rounds the regular grenade launcher can hold, and maybe slightly lower the ROF. Then to take care of the sticky launcher, make it so they cannot be detonated in the air, and make the delay before detonation a second or two longer. I don't see a problem with Demo using stickies to blow up engy buildings, since the amount of time it takes to set up enough stickies gives the defending team more than enough time to take him out.

[Jackel]

So, what you're saying is, it's not hard to get past a single demoman - so long as you're on a crack, well-coordinated team that's making sure to talk regularly so that you can come up with a plan.


No...what he's saying is that most of the classes have ways around the stickies...individually or as a team....think about it: pyro has the airblast, soldier can rocket them, demo can use his own stickies....and the other classes can shoot the stickies around.

I think the only real nerf that may be needed is a delay to stop a demo from stopping a cap by firing the stickies *after* the other team is already at the point and isn't able to defend against the stickies. Maybe make the stickies more powerful the longer they are laid down.

[Wackman3000]

Good post which I basically completely agree with.


You mean I wrote something of substance in my drug addled, drunken state of mind at 4 am? Wow, im impressed with myself. :D

I am really concerned for mr. demoman.

[Dorfl]

Balance depends on the map. If the map is a long straight road, nothing beats the sniper. If there's only one tiny doorway to get from one point to the next, the demo-man is king. In both cases, the problem's not with the class, it's with the map. Gold Rush does a beautiful job of balancing out so that all classes get to shine, other than the scout, maybe.

[cp#]

I was right, Valve only wants people to play Pyro

If there's only one tiny doorway to get from one point to the next, the demo-man is king.

Until one person walks through, he blows his stickies, then a Pyro or Scout or Heavy come charging his way

[Kryopsis]

So the Sniper and Spy have one-hit-kill attacks, a single Engineer can stall/hold/obliterate a whole poorly-coordinated team yet the Demoman is overpowered? The class is one of the hardest to master in the game, has been nerfed repeatedly (from a 6-grenade load and 30 ammo to 4 and 16 respectively), has almost no close-range abilities and is the second slowest runner in the game? Give me a break!

Why do people use the sticky-bomb launcher other than laying an 8-sticky trap or jumping? It's very simple. It has double the load and almost double the ammo of the standard grenade launcher. There are several shortcomings of the weapon:

1. Slow rate of fire
2. Short range (unless charging)
3. Slow projectile speed
4. Limit of 8 stickies deployed at once
5. Can only be detonated several seconds after launching

No weapon in the game has more drawbacks.

[Kryopsis]

We agree that [stickies] are a little too overpowered right now. In fact, internally, we refer to them as “winbombs”. We haven’t reached a decision on what we’ll change yet, though.

Anybody care to explain what 'a little too overpowered' means? Does that imply that there's a way to be 'just overpowered enough'? Is it or is it not overpowered?

Have anybody vocally complained about the demoman before? No. If the demoman is overpowered, wouldn't that reflect in the official TF2 stats (http://steampowered.com/status/tf2/tf2_stats.php)? Let's see... It's not the most-played class, it's just in the middle and it gets less kills than the Heavy, the Pyro and the Soldier.

As far as the argument that good players can dominate as a demoman, think about it. That's what it means to be a good player. If the game is balanced, a person who takes the game seriously should be able to play well as any class.

Finally, somebody mentioned that a sticky trap can stall the opposite team but so can a good sniper or a Sentry gun. In fact, both of them are much more reliable than a Demoman trap that will kill one or two foes on a good day.

[Mason]

Sticky bombs should be left alone. The popularity of Goldmine gives Demos a bit more credit than they deserve, since the challenges faced by both sides are best addressed by stickies:

- Defenders need to kill or scatter people away from the bomb.
- Attackers need to take out sentries that are surrounded by defenders and that have at least one Engie banging on them.

They could easily tweak their PL maps to make them less Demo-friendly. Some walls that keep defending Demos from lobbing stickies onto the bomb path from complete safety would reduce the defensive advantage, and some sentry perches that aren't easy to lob grenades at would help diversify attackers.

As generalized weapons, stickies are already so-so. Anyone can scatter a pile, and if a sticky explosion isn't fatal, Demos don't have a lot to follow-up with to finish someone off. They make great traps, and getting a crit into a crowd is a beautiful thing, but that's not unbalanced.

Give Scouts their new weapons and see what that does to Demos. On Scout-friendly maps, a Demo might as well hang up his eyepatch.

[Mason]

I think the only real nerf that may be needed is a delay to stop a demo from stopping a cap by firing the stickies *after* the other team is already at the point and isn't able to defend against the stickies. Maybe make the stickies more powerful the longer they are laid down.
Even then, the Demo is just a defensive class doing its job. Just like the Sniper and Engineer, a Demo can screw you for being where he expects you to be.

Other than Snipers, Demos are the class most dependent on map layout. Look at the final caps on the first two Dustbowl maps; a defending Demo has to walk through a nice little chokepoint before he has a chance to get a sticky onto the final cap.

[Varsity]

rom a 6-grenade load

There were never six grenades. The weapon model has six chambers (it'd look crap with only four), but it's never held that many nades.

[Disgustipated]

If the demo gets nerfed anymore he'll be a soldier with bouncing rockets.

[Kryopsis]

There were never six grenades. The weapon model has six chambers (it'd look crap with only four), but it's never held that many nades.

In Team Fortress Classic, the Grenade Launcher held 6 grenades. In TF2 beta, the Demoman used to have a load of 6 but this was removed prior to the game's release on PC. On the Xbox 360, the Demoman had 6 grenades for the first month after the release, before it was patched. On the other hand, I believe the PS3 version still has the Demoman with 6 grenades in his launcher.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Well now I know most of you NEVER play demo, half of these "nerfs" would make a demo useless.

[AbeLincoln]

The only time I've felt unfairly squashed by demomen is due to their ability to spawn camp. I played a dustbowl game once with 4 very coordinated people. 2 medics, 2 demos, they'd uber at the start and just rush back to the spawn, being largely ignored by the defenders, they'd then sit there at the spawn alternating who was blowing up and laying, sacrifice didn't work, brute force didn't work cause of the medics, it was impossible to get out of spawn, and the longer re-spawn time of defenders was no help

That is the only time I've ever felt the demo was overpowered. Sticky traps are meant to kill you, you can't rush into them, just like you can't rush into a sentry, but there are ways around it, ubers, spies, sacrifice, or perhipheral explosives. Same tools as overcoming a good sentry defense.

I've just never really felt like the demo was overpowered, but then I mostly play as scout.

[Grey]

pawn camp.

Since when is spawn camping class specific? On most maps there are no barriers and every class can go spawn camping.

thats a whole other topic and should be resolved with map updates not with class nerfing.


(PS: you could have übered in your base and then rush out)

[Citizen Philip]

Blizzard loves Shamans that's why they won't fix them.

[Chimpbot]

I've just never really felt like the demo was overpowered, but then I mostly play as scout.

Demos hit pretty damn hard, but their overall impactfulness is pretty much on-par with the rest of the cast.

Coming from a seasoned Sniper from the days of yore, Demos have never been more than an annoying threat.
While I'm definitely more afraid of them in TF2 than I ever was in TFC, the only thing they ever really accomplish is pestering me and getting me to move around more than I like to.
Their stuff is easy enough to dodge; I don't run into too many Demos who are proficient at lobbing their normals grenades up into my hidey-holes with any real accuracy and their stickies seem to exist purely to eat up my limited ammo.
With that being said, they're easily the best class at disturbing Snipers and I do hate seeing their damnable grenades bouncing around my perch.


I don't even play the Demoman class and I'll be pissed if they get nerfed!

[Bahamut]

Since when is spawn camping class specific? On most maps there are no barriers and every class can go spawn camping.

thats a whole other topic and should be resolved with map updates not with class nerfing.


(PS: you could have übered in your base and then rush out)

Sticky spawn camping is usually a gamebreaker though - by the time you get an uber ready, the other team will likely have won the round or be about to. It's worse when people don't communicate. With other classes spawn camping, it's not so bad because there are direct ways one or two people can stop it. With stickies, there are no clear ways against it unless the demo doesn't do it right. For an example, if the demo stickies up the sides of the gates, pyros won't help move them. If some stickies happen to be at the front, he'll blow it up as soon as the gate opens, and you need someone to sacrifice himself at the very least if you want to do the herculean task of breaking out of it without an uber. If the demo has help from other classes or even another demo, then you're just plain fucked.

[Talon-]

Demos hit pretty damn hard, but their overall impactfulness is pretty much on-par with the rest of the cast.

Coming from a seasoned Sniper from the days of yore, Demos have never been more than an annoying threat.
While I'm definitely more afraid of them in TF2 than I ever was in TFC, the only thing they ever really accomplish is pestering me and getting me to move around more than I like to.
Their stuff is easy enough to dodge; I don't run into too many Demos who are proficient at lobbing their normals grenades up into my hidey-holes with any real accuracy and their stickies seem to exist purely to eat up my limited ammo.
With that being said, they're easily the best class at disturbing Snipers and I do hate seeing their damnable grenades bouncing around my perch.


I don't even play the Demoman class and I'll be pissed if they get nerfed!

Making that jump from TFC to TF2 was so huge. I'm glad they didn't just reskin the old game. I honestly think that TF2 is a much more balanced game than TFC. That said, I miss conc jumping with my Medic and terrorizing the opposing base.

Still, I don't know why, but I'm barely halfway decent as a sniper in TF2 while I still rock the shit in TFC. I guess letting go of the mouse button to shoot was quicker than clicking...or something. I'm just making excuses now.

[Lint of Death]

I'm willing to bet the sticky's ridiculous level of usability in close quarters combat contributes to the 'winbomb' name.

[Grey]

Sticky spawn camping is usually a gamebreaker though - by the time you get an uber ready, the other team will likely have won the round or be about to. It's worse when people don't communicate. With other classes spawn camping, it's not so bad because there are direct ways one or two people can stop it. With stickies, there are no clear ways against it unless the demo doesn't do it right. For an example, if the demo stickies up the sides of the gates, pyros won't help move them. If some stickies happen to be at the front, he'll blow it up as soon as the gate opens, and you need someone to sacrifice himself at the very least if you want to do the herculean task of breaking out of it without an uber. If the demo has help from other classes or even another demo, then you're just plain fucked.


I already said it: Thats the problem with spawn camping, not with the Demo as such. Changing him for failures in the map design is wrong.

[GigaFuzz]

That is the only time I've ever felt the demo was overpowered. Sticky traps are meant to kill you, you can't rush into them, just like you can't rush into a sentry, but there are ways around it, ubers, spies, sacrifice, or perhipheral explosives. Same tools as overcoming a good sentry

Couldn't you also use a Heavy or Pyro's airblast to move the stickies out of the way?

[Bahamut]

I already said it: Thats the problem with spawn camping, not with the Demo as such. Changing him for failures in the map design is wrong.

I dunno, I don't have a problem stopping spawn camping by other classes. Sticky spawn camping is a whole other beast though.

[Grey]

I dunno, I don't have a problem stopping spawn camping by other classes. Sticky spawn camping is a whole other beast though.

I did not encouter that heavily. To which maps are you referring? Most have two spawn point exits so you need like 3 to 5 demos if you really want to pin a team down. That scenario is most unlikely for the bigger part of the mappool. If I am thinking about it only goldrush stage 3 comes to my mind right now, and even there I cannot imagine how you're able to pin down a team of 8 or more people just with stickys.

[cp#]

Valve loves shitting on the Soldier and Demoman

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Sticky spawn camping? How retarded does someone have to be to fall for that?

[Bahamut]

Sticky spawn camping? How retarded does someone have to be to fall for that?

There are certain maps where it has unbelievable power and not that inconceivable for it to happen in, most notably with offense camping the defense in Goldrush Stage 1. I've seen it happen on several other maps, but not with such freakish regularity.

[Amzin]

Don't let stickies crit (except with a kreitzkreig). There. Done. Although I think ALL weapons should be that way, unless it's a bonus of the weapon, but the way the game is currently set up, removing crits from stickies is the only change I see needed to demos.

[Amzin]

Hmm, can't edit my post for some reason, but here's more comments from me:

The Air Compressor is actually a gigantic counter to demos. A pyro standing by a sentry can effectively negate a demo-uber attempt to clear a sentry. It adds another class that can clear stickies out of the way, and a demo actually has no ranged weapon that can shoot a pyro with an air compressor reliably. This will be more apparent as the time goes on and people get over the Backburner and go back to the compressor.

Demo spawn-camping can be a problem, but I've never died 2 times in a row to it, and the first time is only if I don't know he's there. A heavy-medic can cause far more damage than a demo or demo-medic spawn camping for that matter, but I haven't seen anyone complain about that.

[Mason]

Don't let stickies crit (except with a kreitzkreig). There. Done. Although I think ALL weapons should be that way, unless it's a bonus of the weapon, but the way the game is currently set up, removing crits from stickies is the only change I see needed to demos.
The good and bad thing about crits is that they exist to even out player skill. While this makes them pretty annoying to self-identified good players, that normalizing factor is important to the long-term viability of the game.
This will be more apparent as the time goes on and people get over the Backburner and go back to the compressor.
I definitely agree with that. I like all-natural achievements, so I don't even have the Backburner, and I've enjoyed the compression blast more than most. Whenever you have access to free ammo (goldrush bomb, dispenser), you can pretty much shut down soldiers.

The compression blast doesn't seem as effective against demo bombs, though. Demos can still explode stickies in the air, the arc of grenades makes them harder to counter, and the shotgun is honestly a better tool for moving stationary stickies, since the range of the airblast is so low that you pretty much have to get into the kill radius to move them about 10 feet.

That said, the airblast is good enough against people and rockets to make it worth it. Last night, I reflected a rocket and knocked the soldier into the air with the same shot, and then finished him with the flamethrower before he could hit the ground. Before the patch, a pyro could only dream of going toe-to-toe with an awake soldier and winning without a scratch.

[Amzin]

The good and bad thing about crits is that they exist to even out player skill. While this makes them pretty annoying to self-identified good players, that normalizing factor is important to the long-term viability of the game.

I completely disagree that the long-term viability needs a skill equalizer. I play TF2 less than I otherwise would because it has crits in it. A FPS shouldn't have handicaps built into it, it's an FPS, it's supposed to be about player skill, and in TF2's case, team skill. Crits can negate a plan, negate a superior opponent, all with the roll of a die. It's not the power of the crits, it's the randomness. I love kreitzkreig, the auto-crit on Axtinguisher and Backburner, but those are all things you can factor in, they're crits that utilize skill.

There's no reason for highly skilled players to play a game where they randomly lose not to ping or a bad day but to something completely random and out of anybodies control. I realize there is high-level TF2 competition regardless, I just think there could be more of it.

I still think a viable option for crits is a player option to disable or enable crits on themselves. If you disable them, you don't get to do random crits yourself, either, but other random crits don't do extra to you. It seems like it would be possible to program. I'm willing to bet a large percentage of the players would disable it, too.

I've put a lot of time into this game. I've unlocked almost all the pyro achievements normally. Out of my almost 200 hours, the biggest imbalance I've seen out of every class, team setup, weapon, anything, is crits. They are just unnecessary. Other team FPS's don't need them, and TF2 doesn't need them.

Sorry for the off-topic rant there, on topic, I still think stickies without crit chance would balance demo men a lot.

[Bahamut]

I completely disagree that the long-term viability needs a skill equalizer. I play TF2 less than I otherwise would because it has crits in it. A FPS shouldn't have handicaps built into it, it's an FPS, it's supposed to be about player skill, and in TF2's case, team skill. Crits can negate a plan, negate a superior opponent, all with the roll of a die. It's not the power of the crits, it's the randomness. I love kreitzkreig, the auto-crit on Axtinguisher and Backburner, but those are all things you can factor in, they're crits that utilize skill.

There's no reason for highly skilled players to play a game where they randomly lose not to ping or a bad day but to something completely random and out of anybodies control. I realize there is high-level TF2 competition regardless, I just think there could be more of it.

I still think a viable option for crits is a player option to disable or enable crits on themselves. If you disable them, you don't get to do random crits yourself, either, but other random crits don't do extra to you. It seems like it would be possible to program. I'm willing to bet a large percentage of the players would disable it, too.

I've put a lot of time into this game. I've unlocked almost all the pyro achievements normally. Out of my almost 200 hours, the biggest imbalance I've seen out of every class, team setup, weapon, anything, is crits. They are just unnecessary. Other team FPS's don't need them, and TF2 doesn't need them.

Sorry for the off-topic rant there, on topic, I still think stickies without crit chance would balance demo men a lot.

One of my friends has the opposite complaint - he thinks crits are necessary to balance out the power of the heavy-medic combo. He plays in leagues, where the medic-heavy combo is utilized to its fullest and they're tough to eliminate. He also has poured almost 200 hours into the game as well.

[Varsity]

I completely disagree that the long-term viability needs a skill equalizer.

Try playing Quake 3, Counter-Strike, or even TFC today for the first time, then tell me the same thing.

[digitalErich]

I completely disagree that the long-term viability needs a skill equalizer.
Go play some Tribes 1 or 2 and see if you still feel that way.

I say let the new car smell of Payload maps and the Backburner wear off before nerfing sticky bombs. The only thing making the demo OP right now are players habitually putting themselves at risk to demos more often than normal given recent updates. Those habits will change.

[Amzin]

Try playing Quake 3, Counter-Strike, or even TFC today for the first time, then tell me the same thing.

If I hadn't already played all those way back when, I might try that. I don't think giving a less-skilled player a free kill every 10 shots really makes them any more likely to stick with the game than if they didn't.

Not only that, but I prefer playing against skilled opponents, even just starting out, I learn way faster that way. I got totally owned by a soldier using really good rocket-jumping tricks, so I saw how to do that, learned to counter it, and do it myself if I wanted to. I just wish Valve would give some more options dealing with crits.