Peter Moore: Revolution Admirer

[[HATE]MyLife]

GamesIndustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz) has posted an article (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=11651) in which Microsoft's Peter Moore talks about the innovative nature of the Revolution Controller.

I want to give kudos for Nintendo for its attempt at innovation with the new controller... We said at E3, we want a billion consumers touched in this next generation...
Touching is good?

[TheKeck]

MyLife']
Touching is good?

Yeah, I think that's their campain slogan "Touching Is Good!" :D

[Kefkataran]

That's pretty cool. Always nice to see the opposition giving props where it's due.

[Pantsmonkey]

So last generation was "Kiddie" this one is "Touching"

Im glad this little Jibe will die fairly quickly it looks sexy as hell the Xbox looks like a Ceramic plant pot with interchangable whatevers by compare.

He also said

"Having a simplified controller is one tactic in what is a larger strategic battle we need to face to grow this business."

Why don't you really say.

Theres more to the controller we wish we knew but we dont so we will make little jibes at it until it comes silently into our house at night and kills is with ninja like amusement the likes of which died with the nintendo zapper on the NES.

/me continues to wonder what else will plug into the damn thing and how...

*EDIT* Thats not my shirt but it amuses me.

[Phades]

So last generation was "Kiddie" this one is "Touching"

Im glad this little Jibe will die fairly quickly it looks sexy as hell the Xbox looks like a Ceramic plant pot with interchangable whatevers by compare.

He also said

"Having a simplified controller is one tactic in what is a larger strategic battle we need to face to grow this business."

Why don't you really say.

Theres more to the controller we wish we knew but we dont so we will make little jibes at it until it comes silently into our house at night and kills is with ninja like amusement the likes of which died with the nintendo zapper on the NES.

/me continues to wonder what else will plug into the damn thing and how...

*EDIT* Thats not my shirt but it amuses me.


Looks to me like fanboy no like getting compliment from bad Microsoft.

I don't see what's wrong with what he said. Get over your hatred of Microsoft and understand that they're just another company, just like your beloved, out to make a buck in this industry. He was giving props to Nintendo for trying a different tactic to grow the industry. Something that is good for all of them.

[if76]

He's a little condescending calling the Revolution's controller simplified. Sure it could be used to control very simple games but it also has the ability to control games that require three seperate axies when the joystick is attached. We're talking about very complicated control here that could also be really really cool.

[Phades]

He's a little condescending calling the Revolution's controller simplified. Sure it could be used to control very simple games but it also has the ability to control games that require three seperate axies when the joystick is attached. We're talking about very complicated control here that could also be really really cool.

But it IS simplified. That's Nintendo's whole point. They felt controllers were getting too complicated and wanted something a little more approachable for consumers. I think people just like to read into everything and try to find insult. Calling it what it is isn't an insult. It's got new abilities, but it's still a simplified controller.

[Abednigo]

That's great to hear Nintendo getting props from MS. I can see how it could be read with a little condescention, but I don't think that was his point. We should be more focused on the fact that someone from MS gave props to Nintendo! That's a good sign.

[RMan]

But it IS simplified. That's Nintendo's whole point.
Yes, but I think calling it simplified because it has less buttons is more of a jab than an acknowledgement (calling it accessible or more approachable would be more appropriate). A keyboard, for instance, is less effective at controlling games than an Xbox gamepad, and even though it has less buttons I’d still say it’s more complicated because it allows for more complex control, but that’s obviously subjective. The Revolution controller, like the gamepad/keyboard comparison, is not going to be considered simpler by everyone just because it has less buttons.

[earthworm48]

I personally can't wait to get my hands on the rev controller too see what its like, I've one concern - the cost of controller peripherals (like the one to make it like a common pad) and the machine itself. Hopefully it will all be quite low.

[Pantsmonkey]

Looks to me like fanboy no like getting compliment from bad Microsoft.

I don't see what's wrong with what he said. Get over your hatred of Microsoft and understand that they're just another company, just like your beloved, out to make a buck in this industry. He was giving props to Nintendo for trying a different tactic to grow the industry. Something that is good for all of them.

Chief I think thats a swipe from one company to another plain and simple.

I have every Microsoft console and every Nintendo one in my house.

So far Nintendo has the better record for controllers IMO.

I dont hate / love any specific company I am now a little more excited
about how Il get to play interesting videogames in the future. At 23 and slowly
learning that my time belongs less and less to videogames and thats a good
thing I will be more than happy to walk in pick up my TV remote see nothing
on and then play nintendo straight away.

The 2nd part of that basically left it open ended anyway.

"He then revealed that Microsoft is also looking into ways ot make games on its
platforms more simple and approachable, while still retaining a level of complexity
that makes them difficult to master."

Im sure they were yes of course... They are now because they know theres something interesting there.

MS is now cooking up all kinds of shit they didnt even have in mind, as is Sony.
At the very least its given them new ideas based on the very limited information at hand right now.

This isnt really the industry for secrets once an idea takes off its everywhere
soon enough save for minor changes to avoid infringments on rights.

[Raziel]

Peter Moore is not an idiot and realizes that competition is a good thing for the games industry, you can choose to see a condescending remark, but I don't think that's how it was intended.

[Heretic Machine]

Ok, a little off topic here, but I don't think anyone has given compliments to Nintendo for this. My favorite part about the Revolution controller, even beyond it's general awesomeness, is the on/off button. I love that. In a generation of wireless controllers ALL consoles should have this. I mean one thing that really annoyed me about the XBOX's DVD remote was that there was no power button, so if I'm laying down and watching a movie and then decide I want to take a nap, I have to get up and turn it off, and then I've ruined my napping-mood.

[RMan]

I've one concern - the cost of controller peripherals (like the one to make it like a common pad) and the machine itself. Hopefully it will all be quite low.
I think it will, I doubt they'll throw near the money at the proc and GPU like MS and Sony. I also think the controller "add-ons" will be cheap, but all new controllers may be more expensive than normal. The gamepad shell and other attachments technically shouldn't need any wireless functionality or any of the advanced stuff, since it'll "piggyback" on the main controller's tech. I do wonder about battery life and whether or not it’ll have a rechargeable “cradle” setup or something, that could get somewhat annoying.

[Pantsmonkey]

Its 3:52 Am perhaps I am a little jumpy.

Its a crazy time indeed I'm sure everyone involved is pretty Jedi in the respective fields,
You wouldnt last long if you werent. would you.

[bapenguin]

Nintendo themselves said their controller was simplified. They did this to open the the availability to a broader gaming audience. It's not a jab at them.

What's with using the word jibe Pantsmonkey?

[Raziel]

Ok, a little off topic here, but I don't think anyone has given compliments to Nintendo for this. My favorite part about the Revolution controller, even beyond it's general awesomeness, is the on/off button. I love that. In a generation of wireless controllers ALL consoles should have this. I mean one thing that really annoyed me about the XBOX's DVD remote was that there was no power button, so if I'm laying down and watching a movie and then decide I want to take a nap, I have to get up and turn it off, and then I've ruined my napping-mood.

I think the X360 beat them to the punch on this one as their controller will be able to turn off the console as well.

[Pantsmonkey]

Looks to me like fanboy no like getting compliment from bad Microsoft.

I don't see what's wrong with what he said. Get over your hatred of Microsoft and understand that they're just another company, just like your beloved, out to make a buck in this industry. He was giving props to Nintendo for trying a different tactic to grow the industry. Something that is good for all of them.

http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/2830/ms29jz.th.jpg (http://img327.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ms29jz.jpg)

Does anyone remember getting up to pause? =) How far have we have come!

+1 to the power button being a good idea. Where does Home take you exactly?

[bapenguin]

I think the X360 beat them to the punch on this one as their controller will be able to turn off the console as well.

Uh oh, something on the 360 that Perigon wants!?!? Blasphemy!

[Justin_McElroy]

If Moore and Nintendo play their cards right, (and I really believe the market could support this) they might not even BE competitors in the next generation.

Think about it.

[thecrazyd]

http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/2830/ms29jz.th.jpg (http://img327.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ms29jz.jpg)

Does anyone remember getting up to pause? =) How far have we have come!

+1 to the power button being a good idea. Where does Home take you exactly?
I would assume that home centers the control, for if you change position.

[Pantsmonkey]

If Moore and Nintendo play their cards right, (and I really believe the market could support this) they might not even BE competitors in the next generation.

Think about it.

Im thinking... How Edzackery would they not compete? What cards do they require? E Reader or wha....

I would assume that home centers the control, for if you change position.

Wouldn't it have some kind of method to detect any movement and recalculate on the fly. If your position is always mapped there would be no need to center it all the time, I hope...

Or do you mean like camera angle resets with R in 3D platforms but for the controlers position?

[RMan]

I think the X360 beat them to the punch on this one as their controller will be able to turn off the console as well.
That’s good, because although I’m sure my problem was very uncommon, my Xbox started making a horrendous noise less than a year after I got it (louder than almost all of my computers), so I can’t use it for playing movies and have to turn it off immediately after use.

I think you’re right, bapenguin, the wording likely isn’t meant to be a jab, I take it back. I wouldn’t call it simpler, and I think some do as a jab, but likely not in this case. MS also knows that the Revolution is posed to hurt Sony much more than them, so they’re not exactly worried about giving them props for the achievement.

[thecrazyd]

Justin, are you saying they will form a partnership and use a universal platform? 'Cause that's not gonna happen.

[Heretic Machine]

Uh oh, something on the 360 that Perigon wants!?!? Blasphemy!

Ya, it's not like I was the first 360 fanboy on this site. I mean really, c'mon.

[Reanimated]

"attempt at innovation"

[Justin_McElroy]

No crazyd, let me clarify.

I can forsee a world (it's not that far off) where the two platforms are mutually exclusive. That is to say that the Nintendo console would feature Nintendo 1st-party titles and titles specifically designed to take advantage of the console's unique capabilities. And Xbox/PS3...wouldn't. I believe that in many ways they are aiming for different audiences.

This is a misleading comparision, but the idea is the same: how much do you think that Microsoft worries about V-Smile? In a given day, I mean. My vote would be...not much. Reasons?

1. They're aimed at different groups.
2. There's no competition for titles on the systems.

Just a thought.

[trip1eX]

"He then revealed that Microsoft is also looking into ways ot make games on its
platforms more simple and approachable, while still retaining a level of complexity
that makes them difficult to master."

Im sure they were yes of course... They are now because they know theres something interesting there.



MS just rings hollow when it says it wants to reach tons of people with their latest console. Certainly their launch lineup says otherwise. Same controller. The fact you need Windows Media Center to use their streaming features. The fact you even need a pc to do that stuff. The 360 really should be a frickin' Tivo in a box if they want to reach people. Not a media extender. And all the sweet gaming features microtransactions and gamer cred that will really bring in the people.

The only thing they did was paint their console and controller white.

MS is famous for getting it right the 3rd time. This is only #2.

[Zanzibar]

"He then revealed that Microsoft is also looking into ways ot make games on its
platforms more simple and approachable, while still retaining a level of complexity
that makes them difficult to master."

Im sure they were yes of course... They are now because they know theres something interesting there.

MS is now cooking up all kinds of shit they didnt even have in mind, as is Sony.
At the very least its given them new ideas based on the very limited information at hand right now.


Have you used the Xbox Live Arcade service? It's been online for a while now - I remember seeing it in action for E3 of LAST year; 2004. MS has been looking at this for quite a while; it's a bit disengenuous to somehow insinuate that since Nintendo is now pushing the simple gaming experience that it's a new, innovative thing.

[bapenguin]

No crazyd, let me clarify.

I can forsee a world (it's not that far off) where the two platforms are mutually exclusive. That is to say that the Nintendo console would feature Nintendo 1st-party titles and titles specifically designed to take advantage of the console's unique capabilities. And Xbox/PS3...wouldn't. I believe that in many ways they are aiming for different audiences.

This is a misleading comparision, but the idea is the same: how much do you think that Microsoft worries about V-Smile? In a given day, I mean. My vote would be...not much. Reasons?

1. They're aimed at different groups.
2. There's no competition for titles on the systems.

Just a thought.

Thats a good point, there may be so little overlap in the target audience that they really aren't directly competing.

[RMan]

Thats a good point, there may be so little overlap in the target audience that they really aren't directly competing.
Possibly, but only for one generation, if the thing is successful, then MS will rip it off for the next generation.

[thecrazyd]

No crazyd, let me clarify.

I can forsee a world (it's not that far off) where the two platforms are mutually exclusive. That is to say that the Nintendo console would feature Nintendo 1st-party titles and titles specifically designed to take advantage of the console's unique capabilities. And Xbox/PS3...wouldn't. I believe that in many ways they are aiming for different audiences.

This is a misleading comparision, but the idea is the same: how much do you think that Microsoft worries about V-Smile? In a given day, I mean. My vote would be...not much. Reasons?

1. They're aimed at different groups.
2. There's no competition for titles on the systems.

Just a thought.
There will always be some signifigant overlap, altough I can see where they are going. The XBox is becoming more and more complex and PC like, while Nintendo is making a console. I believe the gap will increase, but they will still have people who want the best of both worlds.

[mister_slim]

But it IS simplified. That's Nintendo's whole point. They felt controllers were getting too complicated and wanted something a little more approachable for consumers. I think people just like to read into everything and try to find insult. Calling it what it is isn't an insult. It's got new abilities, but it's still a simplified controller.
Fewer buttons and greater information bandwidth. Games done right will work very well, in the same way Halo prospered in the move from KB/M to gamepad.

[Justin_McElroy]

... I believe the gap will increase, but they will still have people who want the best of both worlds ...

Yeah, but those aren't really people they need to worry about winning. I mean, you and I and everyone else will have them both, won't we?

[thecrazyd]

Yeah, but those aren't really people they need to worry about winning. I mean, you and I and everyone else will have them both, won't we?
Well, I won't. I already have a PC for playing PC games. The XBox doesn't really appeal to me. I may buy it late in it's life cycle if it has some compelling games that are exclusive, but I doubt it, as the original XBox did not. I am hoping a Revolution and an awesome PC will carry me through next gen.

[Meatgortex]

The whole point of the revolution is to sell it to an entirely new set of consumers. These people require a different experience.

The current crop of gamers wants bigger worlds, more depth, better visuals and as a result more complicated games that run on ever faster hardware. Nintendo doesn't have the money or the interest in selling the most powerful hardware. MS and to some degree Sony have too much cash and momentum to chase them down that direction.

The revolution isn't about appealing to current gamers, although it will. The goal is to access the huge amount of the population that plays games, but hasn't made the transition to videogames. Your bridge playing grandma is a gamer, not a videogamer. Nintendo wants to change that.

About a hundred years ago the company that became the nintendo we know today was making playing cards and selling them to a very wide audience of people. They lost part of that audience when they started making videogames and they want it back.

Considering the success of titles like Nintendogs and the Sims which are really toys and not "videogames" in the traditional sense, this could be quite the successful venture on their part and open the broader realm of gaming to a much larger audience.

If they are successful MS and Sony will both benefit and it's nice to see at least MS are willing to admit that.

[TheKeck]

Well, I won't. I already have a PC for playing PC games. The XBox doesn't really appeal to me. I may buy it late in it's life cycle if it has some compelling games that are exclusive, but I doubt it, as the original XBox did not. I am hoping a Revolution and an awesome PC will carry me through next gen.

Yeah, I definitely don't play on owning every console, if any either. I don't have any from the current generation, all PC. And honestly, the revolution is currently looking like the only one that might possibly persuade me to go console again.

[thecrazyd]

Considering the success of titles like Nintendogs and the Sims which are really toys and not "videogames" in the traditional sense, this could be quite the successful venture on their part and open the broader realm of gaming to a much larger audience.
Except that all video games are toys. You are assuming that current gamers are satisfied with the way the industry is heading. We are not.

[TrackZero]

Peter Moore is not an idiot and realizes that competition is a good thing for the games industry, you can choose to see a condescending remark, but I don't think that's how it was intended.

Ditto. I'm more of a Nintendo fan, but I read this as Peter respecting Nintendo's innovation. Reminded me in some way of when J Allard had an interview shortly after the DS was unveiled and was exclaiming the virtues of it and how Nintendo understands the market. (This was back when it was cool to bash on the DS too.)

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Don't forget that Peter Moore was a big shot at SEGA for years before joining MS, so these big props are even more unexpected. Glad to see that some in the industry can give props where they are due. I'd love to hear Kenny's reaction to the Revolution controller.

As to the use of the Home button - I really doubt that it centers the controller as someone mentioned above. I'm guessing the controller is "center" when it is level and held still for a second or two. Most of the previews said that the Home button probably took the gamer back to the main menu, and also served in navigating menus both on and offline.

[Meatgortex]

Except that all video games are toys. You are assuming that current gamers are satisfied with the way the industry is heading. We are not.

There is a difference between a toy and a game. A toy is something you play with and bring your own concepts to like a matchbox car or a doll house. A game implies rulesets, winning conditions and some sort of conflict.

Most of what we play on a console is a game, nintendo seems to want to explore the digital toy market. Neither type is more valid then the other, but they are distinctly different.

And while you, myself and a significant chunk of the hardcore might not be happy with the bigger/better/flashier, the average gamer is very happy with it. They want another madden, another final fantasy, another gran turismo, and another grand theft auto. Which is exactly what they should expect on the X360 and PS3.

[thecrazyd]

There is a difference between a toy and a game. A toy is something you play with and bring your own concepts to like a matchbox car or a doll house. A game implies rulesets, winning conditions and some sort of conflict.

Most of what we play on a console is a game, nintendo seems to want to explore the digital toy market. Neither type is more valid then the other, but they are distinctly different.

And while you, myself and a significant chunk of the hardcore might not be happy with the bigger/better/flashier, the average gamer is very happy with it. They want another madden, another final fantasy, another gran turismo, and another grand theft auto. Which is exactly what they should expect on the X360 and PS3.
Your distinction is blurry at best. Is Madden a game or a toy? You have your football team and can control them how you will. Is the only distinction a storyline? What about GTA, where there is a story, but you can play around? How about something like Pirates! which is loose story that you can ignore if you want? No, all games are toys.

In fact, the "toy" tag is simply a term haters use to dismiss the depth truely found in Nintendo's games.

[Harlan Hoyt]

While you can argue disingenuously that there is no qualitative difference between the terms "toy" and "game," the fact is that there is. People associate toys with children, and this is one of the main criticisms of Nintendo. What about a game like SimCity? Is that a toy or a game? There's no plot or "point" to it, and, while you could make an argument that there is a "ruleset" (in as much as Legos have a "ruleset" -- you click one brick on top of another until you create something), you are free to do whatever you like in the game. Same with "Animal Crossing," same with "Nintendogs."

As to the use of the Home button - I really doubt that it centers the controller as someone mentioned above. I'm guessing the controller is "center" when it is level and held still for a second or two. Most of the previews said that the Home button probably took the gamer back to the main menu, and also served in navigating menus both on and offline.

I agree. If "WarioWare: Twisted" is any indication of the direction and development of the technology of the Revolution controller (and I think it is), I doubt the 'home' button centers the controller as well. I also doubt that the controller is in plumb when it's level. The controller has no way of knowing if it's level with the horizon or not. Going off "WarioWare," if the Revolution detects that the controller is out of plumb, when you enter a new area or pause and come back to the game, I bet that the game will throw up a short "Hold controller still, calibrating ..." dialog. In "WarioWare" it takes about three seconds. Then you can hold the thing anyway you want to.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

I also doubt that the controller is in plumb when it's level. The controller has no way of knowing if it's level with the horizon or not.


Isn't that part of the job of the gyroscopes inside it?

[Harlan Hoyt]

To keep it level, yes, relative to how you're holding it when it determines what "level" is. If I'm holding it straight up-and-down when it calibrates, if I move it level with the ground it'll think it's being held vertically.

[nonchalance]

Your distinction is blurry at best. Is Madden a game or a toy? You have your football team and can control them how you will. Is the only distinction a storyline? What about GTA, where there is a story, but you can play around? How about something like Pirates! which is loose story that you can ignore if you want?

In order, game, game, and game.
The difference is conflict.
In a game, there is an opposing force.
In a toy, it's all how you want it to be.

Solitaire is a game and not a toy - the opposing force is a ruleset designed to challenge.
Lego is a toy and not a game - you build stuff.

No, all games are toys.

In fact, the "toy" tag is simply a term haters use to dismiss the depth truely found in Nintendo's games.

Rock paper scissors is a game. A harcore enthusiast's trainset is a toy. Which is more complex?

Toy/game doesn't denote complexity, nor depth, merely the presence competition.
Want to know why there aren't as many women gamers as male gamers?
Because a higher percentage of men enjoy competition. Nintendogs and the Sims (and, for that matter, Sim City) appeal more to women, because they don't need to compete against anything, they can just play.

[Kefkataran]

The difference is conflict.
In a game, there is an opposing force.

Solitaire is a game and not a toy - the opposing force is a ruleset designed to challenge.
Lego is a toy and not a game - you build stuff.

So... Tetris? Sim City? Any "god" game? They're instantly not games? ... huh.

Nintendogs and the Sims (and, for that matter, Sim City) appeal more to women, because they don't need to compete against anything, they can just play.

And women just naturally are less interested in competition? You don't know the women I do. I dunno about all that sexism jazz, but I wrote an article on this last year for the campus paper. I should dig that up some time.

[nonchalance]

So... Tetris? Sim City?

Which part of 'a ruleset designed to challenge' did you miss?
Sim City is designed to challenge you. It has a goal and opposing forces.

Any "god" game? They're instantly not games? ... huh.

Who took the bad guys out of Civilisation?

And women just naturally are less interested in competition? You don't know the women I do. I dunno about all that sexism jazz, but I wrote an article on this last year for the campus paper. I should dig that up some time.

I'm generalising horribly, I'm aware of this.
I'm also not saying 'naturally'.
Women tend to be less interested in physical or mental competition than men, and whether that's a product of natural selection or of societal forces I don't know.

[Heretic Machine]

There is a difference between a toy and a game. A toy is something you play with and bring your own concepts to like a matchbox car or a doll house. A game implies rulesets, winning conditions and some sort of conflict.

Well then toys win over games, hands-down.

[Meatgortex]

In fact, the "toy" tag is simply a term haters use to dismiss the depth truely found in Nintendo's games.

Settle down crazy, I'm saying that toys are a good thing. If there is someone with a hang up about the concept it would appear to be you.

Toys appeal to a different population then traditional games and not just kids. The sharper image stores basically make a living out of selling toys to adults. There is a large amount of cross over and the most successful games both console and PC have either been toys or have toy aspects.

If the revolution reduces the barrier of entry for more of those who like toys more power to them. It means more people buying games, and more game styles, which is a very good thing.

[thecrazyd]

nonchalance, your termanology is vague at best. Games like Pirates! have only self imposed goals, where you are free to do whatever you want, and you decide what to do. How is that any different then lego? Pirates! is a game because guys fight you? I don't think so. I can just as easilly make lego guys fight. I can set my own goals to build a certain object in a certain amount of time. How is that diffferent from setting the goal in Pirates! to finding your family, or becoming the most despised pirate in the Carribean?

Meatgortex, you may not be specifically using it in a negative manner, but generally it is. And I have still yet to see a statement that tells me why Pirates! is a game, and Nintendogs is a toy.

[mister_slim]

So, Morrowind: Toy or game?

[nonchalance]

nonchalance, your termanology is vague at best. Games like Pirates! have only self imposed goals, where you are free to do whatever you want, and you decide what to do. How is that any different then lego?

It doesn't "only have self-imposed goals".
It has all sorts of outward goals. Get the girl to bang you - here's a competitive thing to do to do that. Blow the f**k out of the other ships - here's a competitive thing to do to do that. Keep your crew happy - here's a competitive thing to do to do that.
Complete the story. Gain rank. Find treasure. Fight the dude.

Pirates! is a game because guys fight you? I don't think so. I can just as easilly make lego guys fight.

You can. Toys are entirely self-decisions. You can make up whatever rules to have those guys fight you like, and nobody and nothing's going to say: you're doing it wrong. You lose.

I can set my own goals to build a certain object in a certain amount of time. How is that diffferent from setting the goal in Pirates! to finding your family, or becoming the most despised pirate in the Carribean?

An outwardly imposed ruleset, and outwardly imposed goals. Deciding which one to do in Pirates! is no different to deciding on getting Park Lane and Mayfair in Monopoly.

[nonchalance]

So, Morrowind: Toy or game?

Can you 'win'?
Can you 'lose'?

Actually, that's much better than my other definitions.

A game is something that has a win/loss condition.
That make sense to everybody?

[Kefkataran]

An outwardly imposed ruleset, and outwardly imposed goals.

I don't really know ANY games that have no ruleset. I mean if they didn't have a ruleset... they'd be chaos!