Short Timers Club: List of XBLA Games Possibly Facing Delisting

[Dr.Finger]

Last week we heard from Xbox Live GM Mark Whitten (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51901) that XBLA games meeting three specific criteria - out for at least six months, a Metacritic rating under 65 and a conversion rate under 6% - would face the prospect of being de-listed from the service.

Well X3F did some research (http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2008/05/26/list-of-potentially-de-listed-arcade-titles/) and came up with a list of 43 XBLA titles that meet the first two criteria (only Microsoft has conversion rate numbers). You can find the full list below the fold, but here are a few highlights:
Crystal Quest
Texas Hold 'em
TiQal
Screwjumper!Couldn't they put the games up for sale before delisting? Give the title two weeks at half price and see if they can't get that conversion rate above 6%. After all, any sales you rack up at the lower price point is still money you wouldn't see if you delist it right away

[Dr.Finger]

Crystal Quest
Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe
Hardwood Hearts
Texas Hold 'em
Fatal Fury Special
Contra
Marathon: Durandal
Missile Command
Time Pilot
Track & Field
Hardwood Backgammon
Hardwood Spades
Pac-Man
Frogger
Mad Tracks
Root Beer Tapper
Super Contra
Geon: Emotions
Soltrio Solitaire
Arkadian Warriors
TiQal
Rush'n Attack
Defender
Double Dragon
Xevious
Gyruss
Asteroids / Asteroids Deluxe
Battlestar Galactica
Centipede & Millipede
Spyglass Board Games
Tetris Splash
Ecco the Dolphin
Yie Ar Kung-Fu
Wing Commander Arena
Novadrome
Shrek-N-Roll
Scramble
Tempest
Street Trace: NYC
Word Puzzle
New Rally-X
Cyberball 2072
Screwjumper!

[DerwanS]

I'm kind of curious how they'll be doing this. Will the games be removed from just the marketplace (just can't buy them anymore), or will you not be able to download them at all? What happens if you've already bought something they delist, will you be able to re-download it if you delete it after this?

[Inverarity]

Good questions, I think. I like the OP's suggestion that games be given a two-week sale before delisting: there are a good few games on the list above that I'd probably go ahead and happily play for a few hours, but their price tag is too high for the fleeting enjoyment. I can see at least five that I'd pick up for somewhere between $2 and $5.

[Purple Santa]

I have many of those games from that list...not sure what that says about my taste in games that no one else is playing...

I like the idea of a fire sale...i'll certainly would be buying up some games...

[Vyzov]

Marathon: Durandal? No! Well, I already have it so it's not that big of a deal.

[Dr.Finger]

I'm kind of curious how they'll be doing this. Will the games be removed from just the marketplace (just can't buy them anymore), or will you not be able to download them at all? What happens if you've already bought something they delist, will you be able to re-download it if you delete it after this?MS says that if you already own the full game you'll be able to redownload it at will. But everyone else will no longer be able to download the demo. I assume that if someone already has the demo and tries to buy the game through it they'd let you, since you already have the full game on your hard drive, but I can't vouch for that.

[biosc1]

Marathon: Durandal
Hardwood Backgammon
Mad Tracks
Root Beer Tapper
Soltrio Solitaire
Arkadian Warriors
Spyglass Board Games


Ones I think I shall have to buy before delisting...

Wasn't Texas Hold'Em given out for free? Makes sense that they lack in conversion rate because everyone who got it, got it for free when it was offered.

[vodka_mike]

I swear if they delist Tetris I'll buy a PS3.

There are some amazing classic games that should never be put in the sin bin.

What is it costing to keep these games? 50MB of hard drive space. These are games that met their standards for admission, and are now being turfed.

Remember this MS: You kill Tetris, I kill my 360. It's semi faulty DVD drive's blood will be on your hands!

(Can you tell that I have to replay a few missions in GTAIV because the 360 had a disc read error during a cut scene last night?)

[EternalGamer]

I own a bunch of those games and most of them are certainly more enjoyable than 66% would indicate. But I'll bet the sale through rate on the ones I'm thinking of (Ecco, Pacman, Frogger, Arkadian Warriors, Contra etc.) are higher than 6%.

Apparently you'll also still be able to redownload the titles or suggest delisted titles to a friend (and they can buy them through your suggestion message). So I don't see the point of this since the games will remain on their server. One of the big advantages of digital download is an unlimited shelf life for a product. It allows games to find their audience even if it takes them a while. This idea of delisting titles on a virtual store is just fucking stupid. If they want to do something about Live Arcade filling up with crap, then they should do their own quality control before titles get released.

Also, I want more classic games. Where is Gunstar Heroes with Live Co-op? Where is Sonic 2, 3, and Sonic and Knuckles, Metal Slug 1,2, and 4, Streets of Rage 3, and Double Dragon 2 and 3, just to name a few?

[BlackPete]

Delisting games from a virtual store? I really don't see the point.

[silv]

Hardwood Hearts is awesome. F that.

[Maskatron]

I doubt they'll get rid of Hold'Em.

[Demo_Boy]

No, really, there are some crap games there that drag down the whole Live Marketplace experience.
While a bunch of these should never have been released in the first place, if you read the interview with the XBLA product manager he says they are transitioning from quantity to quality.
So they had a different goal before and that is why some of the really awful ones got on.

Flooding the market with crap can cause a crash like with the Atari 2600 market, so they have to be careful about this.

[Demo_Boy]

And if anyone has a list of meta critic scores for all the XBLA games could they PM me the list?

Eternally grateful...

[menage]

I doubt they'll get rid of Hold'Em.

Was thinking the same thing. Who the hell would delete that at the moment.

[Haemorrhage]

Major Nelson addresses the DRM and delisting in his latest podcast. Games are not removed from the Marketplace servers, just the store. You can re-download any previously bought game through your download history in the Marketplace.

[PathMaster]

They could try repackaging them into a multi-game package and try to sell them that way. Or maybe pull them down off the list and put them back on again at a later date.

[Dr.Finger]

I think this is more about cleaning up the XBLA page on the marketplace than anything else. You'll still be able to buy the games, they just won't appear on the list when you look at all of the XBLA titles

[PsychoticVile]

That is an interesting list but something tells me there are other criteria we haven't been made aware of yet. I know Texas Hold'ems numbers would be better if they hadn't given it away for free so I doubt they will delist it. The same can be said for Contra as that was given away for free in another promotion that Microsoft ran.

[Texas Speed]

Here's a Q&A from Gamerscoreblog (http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2008/05/24/559300.aspx):

Q: What's "conversion rate"?
A: When people download a trial XBLA game, and then purchase that game, that's called a conversion. So if less than 6% of all trials downloaded lead to full game purchases - that's one of the 3 criteria we look at when deciding to delist a game.

Q: Why are you delisting games?
A: We have a LOT of XBLA titles onto the service. By filtering out the lower performing games, it will actually make it easier to find the games you really want.

Q: If I bought a game, and deleted it, can I redownload it even if it's been delisted?
A: Yes, you can. Go to Download History under the Account Management section of marketplace (far left blade).

Q: Can I still play a game after it's been delisted? What about playing online? What about leaderboards?
A: Yes, yes, and yes. The game will function normally even after being delisted. You can continue to play the game single and multiplayer, as well as use the leaderboards as you normally would.

[Micasa]

Seems to beg the question...why not just put old games into a separate list that's only pulled up if you request it? It would speed up the XBLA list loading while keeping those games - that are still there anyway - from being shunted off the service entirely.

[Shodan2020]

They'd better freakin fix the DRM-issues with Live games before they even think about getting rid of those.

[SalaciousPuck]

Why bother delisting them?

Isn't the great thing about distributing content through the Internet that the consumer can have ANYTHING at ANYTIME.

It's not like it costs them anything to offer the games, it all comes down to the interface or promotion of the games. There has to be a way to promote the top stuff while offering everything.

XBL and XBLA are great things that have done alot for gaming. I know it's a business first and foremost, but I hope decisions are weighted more to the technology-idealists rather than the marketing douchebags.

[LarsenNET]

According to Majornelson's podcast you can still buy delisted games if you know someone that owns it and uses the "Tell a Friend Feature".

I don't see this as being a big deal. They are getting rid of the crap games but if you bought them and can always get them.

[oldjadedgamer]

I doubt they'll get rid of Hold'Em.

I doubt this too considering that any time of the day I can easily get into an 8 player tournament.

[Pluvious]

Maybe they will figure out that by overcharging us for these games is what killed them?.. not the game itself.

Watch how fast they sell if they chopped the price in half.

[Johan]

Major Nelson addresses the DRM and delisting in his latest podcast. Games are not removed from the Marketplace servers, just the store. You can re-download any previously bought game through your download history in the Marketplace.

That was a good listen.

Also, you can recommend the games to a friend and they can buy them that way, as well (LarsenNET beat me).

They won't be totally gone, but you'll have to really WANT to find them to get them.

[PathMaster]

They'd better freakin fix the DRM-issues with Live games before they even think about getting rid of those.
I thought some issues with the DRM were to be fixed in an upcoming update.

According to Majornelson's podcast you can still buy delisted games if you know someone that owns it and uses the "Tell a Friend Feature".

I don't see this as being a big deal. They are getting rid of the crap games but if you bought them and can always get them.
So, what we need to do is have someone, or a few someones, purchase every single game and list them someplace. So we can grab them at a later date if we so choose.

[Kelegacy]

I'd buy some of those games if they suffered a price drop. Marathon is one I'd like to get, but the truth is I am not interested in enough Arcade titles to lay down 800 or more points. At 400, I don't bat an eye.

[Tel Prydain]

As long as I can still re-download them, I'm happy.

[Johan]

So, what we need to do is have someone, or a few someones, purchase every single game and list them someplace. So we can grab them at a later date if we so choose.

I own half of them! :D

My gamertag is <redacted> ;)

[Talanvor]

I'd be happy to pick up Ecco if they dropped the price a little. That was the game that got me to buy a SegaCD for my Genesis, too bad the poor thing got dropped less than a month later by my klutz of a cousin and died.

[KamaItachi]

I think the only one on that list that I'd make sure to get before it was dropped would be SpeedBall 2. I hope they tell us well in advance before these games get shelved.

Also, what Eternal said, especially the part about Gunstar Heroes.

[sleepbox]

OH NO!!! No Yie Ar Kung-Fu!!!!!!

[gzsfrk]

I have both Soltrio Solitairre and Arkadian Warriors. AW was a decently fun, mediocre dungeon hack and slasher with lite RPG elements, and I enjoyed it alot, but I can see where it wouldn't do good. But my wife absolutely tears up some Soltrio Solitairre. She would be totally peeved if she couldn't play that one any more (which doesn't seem to be the case with what they're doing here, fortunately). But that begs the point--MS should really be seeking to keep games like Soltrio prominently featured as they expand the demographic to which their games appeal. I mean, who doesn't know at least a baker's dozed of women who love playing card games on the computer?

And I agree with the previous posters who said removing ANY title from a virtual marketplace is ridiculous. Just create a "Budget Titles" section in the Games Store for the underperforming games, cut the price in half, and then put all the games which hit this criteria in there. To remove revenue generating items that have almost zero ongoing maintenance cost would be ridiculous, no matter if the games don't generate as MUCH revenue as MS and the 3rd parties would hope. I mean, those virtual sales are still pretty much pure profit.

Hopefully, reasonably non-stupid heads will prevail.

[Hemalin]

They won't be totally gone, but you'll have to really WANT to find them to get them.

Sounds great. Since the games aren't selling well, make it even harder for people to buy them.

If the problem is sifting through too many games on the service, they need to make a better browser.

[Crono]

But if you put the games on sale, other games will suffer from this. People will expect sales on Arcade games periodically every time after this one. From my point of view, this would rock... but I doubt Microsoft feels the same way about setting such a precedence.

[Hemalin]

But if you put the games on sale, other games will suffer from this. People will expect sales on Arcade games periodically every time after this one. From my point of view, this would rock... but I doubt Microsoft feels the same way about setting such a precedence.

And? Retail has sales all the time. If a game doesn't sell well its price gets slashed. Yet, people still pay $50-$60 for games. Even Steam provides sales, bundles and price drops.

[ElectricMonk]

They really shouldn't de-list anything. Just improve the live browser so you can find crap easier.

But if you bought screwjumper and liked it you're going to be pissed if your 360 dies and it's now forever lost to the void. It completely erodes the concept of purchasing things digitally. You should be able to recover them for as long as the service exists.

[Wasson_]

how is the live version of battlezone not on there?

it's fucking horrible.

[Micasa]

They really shouldn't de-list anything. Just improve the live browser so you can find crap easier.

But if you bought screwjumper and liked it you're going to be pissed if your 360 dies and it's now forever lost to the void. It completely erodes the concept of purchasing things digitally. You should be able to recover them for as long as the service exists.

They've already said that if you've bought a game in the past you can redownload it at any point simply by going to your download history. With the DRM fix slated for the update, you'd even be taken care of that way as well.

[Norse]

A 6% conversion rate is pretty bad. I doubt there are many ok titles that have less than that.

[ResistanceAddict]

Hmm... I play WSOP '08 on XBL very much. I wonder how good Texas Hold 'em is...

[JimmyDanger]

I'm pretty sure Tiqual hasn't been out for 6 months yet...

Anyways to echo others - for 400 points I'll buy most anything half decent.

Maybe a "Sale!" section in the XBLM/A blades. I know I jumped all over the last "sale" (I think I bought Dig Dug and Zuma!).

[Isamura]

Hmm... I play WSOP '08 on XBL very much. I wonder how good Texas Hold 'em is...

I was shocked to discover my top 10 most played games:

1. Texas Hold'em
2. Call of Duty 4
3. Halo 3
4. Rainbow Six® Vegas
5. Rock Band
6. Guitar Hero II
7. BioShock
8. Mass Effect
9. Madden NFL 08
10. Gears of War
(from http://www.360voice.com/blog.asp?tag=djat)

I always play Hold em when I'm on my recumbent excersise bike, because I only need to push like 2 buttons.

I would probably have to buy another hold'em game if this dried up since I would probably quit, since this game is the only thing that makes excersising tolerable.

As for the game itself, it's pretty well done. The only problem with it, is occasionally you'll get disconnected and kicked out of the game, and you'll lose your entry fee. So if you're in a big money game which you paid 50k to get into, getting disconnected is a pretty shitty feeling, especially if you're doing well...

[Johan]

They've already said that if you've bought a game in the past you can redownload it at any point simply by going to your download history.

Anyone ever tried that? I did, and scrolling through 600+ items to find the one you're looking for is a pain in the royal caboose.

There are several very major interface updates that MS needs to get on with this. Download history should be separable between more than just "Games" and "Videos." It should have separate areas for demos, gamer pics, themes, trailers, purchased games, and on and on...

Also, I'd like to dump titles from my played list that have been there for all eternity but which I never bought. They didn't enable that last time around for titles prior to the last update, and I'd like to get them OFF the list. One third of my list is crap like that.

[Crono]

And? Retail has sales all the time. If a game doesn't sell well its price gets slashed. Yet, people still pay $50-$60 for games. Even Steam provides sales, bundles and price drops.

We're not dealing with retail OR steam. We're dealing with Microsoft.

[Pluvious]

SNIP

And I agree with the previous posters who said removing ANY title from a virtual marketplace is ridiculous. Just create a "Budget Titles" section in the Games Store for the underperforming games, cut the price in half, and then put all the games which hit this criteria in there. To remove revenue generating items that have almost zero ongoing maintenance cost would be ridiculous, no matter if the games don't generate as MUCH revenue as MS and the 3rd parties would hope. I mean, those virtual sales are still pretty much pure profit.

Hopefully, reasonably non-stupid heads will prevail.

Finally! Thank you for making it so clear.. common sense prevails.. MS needs some better management or something.. this makes a whole lot more sense then making these titles unavailable to NEW 360 owners!
They keep bragging about how if you have downloaded it before you can redownload it.. but if their not in the store .. they pretty much don't exist unless your "in-the-know". What new 360 owner could possibly realize to ask his friends to 'refer' him a game he doesn't even know about??

[zsbMich]

If anyone is a fan of Screw Jumper, you will still be able to play it on Instant Action (www.instantaction.com). The site/game deliver system is still in beta, but I've been enjoying my play time with Screw Jumper and Fallen Empires: Legions (spiritual successor to Tribes)