Bushnell: Encryption Chips Will End Game Piracy

[Dr.Finger]

For those that don't know Nolan Bushnell was one of the founders of Atari (as well as one of the founders of Chuck E. Cheese). He's also been critical of the game industry, going so far as to call modern games "trash (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38121)". Well he's once again making waves, this time predicting the end of game piracy (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/encryption-chip-will-end-piracy-open-markets-says-bushnell)."There is a stealth encryption chip called a TPM that is going on the motherboards of most of the computers that are coming out now," he pointed out "What that says is that in the games business we will be able to encrypt with an absolutely verifiable private key in the encryption world - which is uncrackable by people on the internet and by giving away passwords - which will allow for a huge market to develop in some of the areas where piracy has been a real problem."A few years back a patent came to light showing that Sony had developed a method to intrinsically link a piece of software - even a hard copy - to a particular piece of hardware. Gamers were understandably upset by that prospect, and Sony assured us that they were nowhere near implementing it. Well what's the reaction going to be if, as Bushnell claims, hardware manufacturers are already surreptitiously placing elements of these markers in our motherboards?

I don't pirate software, but I will never buy a mobo that makes me jump through hoops to use my own games the way Microsoft and Apple make me to use XBLA games and iTunes media. I don't care if that means I never buy another computer, I will not stand for it.

[H1PO]

Hasn't everybody learned that challenging hackers is a really bad idea?

[Isamura]

Is every hardware manufacturer going to put these chips on their hardware? If there is no advantage to having the chip, I'd think the manufacturers who don't implement the chip will see a sharp increase in sales...

[Grifter]

I doubt this will ever be used, especially on "enthusiast" branded parts. Everyone knows that a lot of PC gamers are also tech heads that enjoy adding new parts and pretty consistently changing their rig to best suit their needs and by allowing something like this to be placed on their motherboards they will be in effect telling their customer base that they no longer want their business. I can see it being used by OEM PC manufacturers (Dell, HP etc...etc...) which is awesome for me, the more people that want custom builds the more I get to do what I love.

[Crash_69]

I know if there are companies that won't use this chip, they'll have my dollars for sure...

[roboninja]

So, if I upgrade my mobo, the game I purchased will not work? Yeah, you can fuck right off with that.

[FearTheReaper]

Hasn't everybody learned that challenging hackers is a really bad idea?

Apparently not yet.

[Apushmataha]

Hasn't everybody learned that challenging hackers is a really bad idea?

That reminds me of the Lifelock owner who published his SS# on the service's ads. The outcome for that was pretty hilarious.

All of these heavy-handed measures will only do what they've been successful in doing since their inception, which is to frustrate legitimate users and ensure that they'll never stop talking badly about your comopany.

[Shadowstorm]

And the never ending race between hackers and corporations continues ...

[cp#]

Oh, it's uncrackable? :rolleyes:

[Heretic Machine]

Sup, Bushnell; killed any industries lately?

That reminds me of the Lifelock owner who published his SS# on the service's ads. The outcome for that was pretty hilarious.

For those of you who don't know:

As of 2008 there are currently over 25 people using Todd Davis' social security number and also three lawsuits pending against them for illegal activities and misrepresentation.

LuLz

[Citizen Philip]

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Itchyeyes]

Bushnell hasn't accomplished anything of note in decades, and over the past couple of years he's taken to wasting the notoriety that he earned in the 70's and 80's on ridiculous and sensationalist public statements. I couldn't give a rat's ass what he thinks about piracy or DRM.

[H1PO]

For those of you who don't know:



LuLz
That shit is motherfucking hillarious.

[Evil Avatar]

Sup, Bushnell; killed any industries lately?



For those of you who don't know:



LuLz

Can you say "Epic Fail".

[DaXIthR]

I like this guy; he really seems to care.

About what? - I have no idea.

[Lunar Blue]

"There is a stealth encryption chip called a TPM that is going on the motherboards of most of the computers that are coming out now,"

Ahem, Mr. Bushnell, would you kindly tell which manufacturers are these? Just so their shareholders know ahead of time their shares will be worthless when it happens. ;)

[jeffbax]

Hilarious. They'll never stop this stuff and its abusive to legit customers to try. TPM is supposed to keep people from making Hackintosh computers but clearly that is not the case.

[Dr.Finger]

This is one of the few times I got angry writing a newspost. It's not just that someone else has a supposedly "ironclad" anti-piracy method, it's Bushnell's assertion that they're secretly putting them into computers. Part of me almost hopes that they are doing it, so I could sue the hell out of the companies that do so.

[Gaunt]

I've seen a couple of these show up... primarily in laptops here at work. The drivers for XP really seem to give some of our network apps are hard time...

Yes, they're slipping them onto boards, but as everyone has already pointed out the chances of them ending up on all boards is pretty much zero, and I'd be surprised if the check couldn't just be bypassed like normal anyhow....

[YoungAlCapone]

Hasn't everybody learned that challenging hackers is a really bad idea?

Oh, it's uncrackable? :rolleyes:

QFT

Seriously people, learn this shit; if someone can write it, someone can crack it.

[SuicideKing]

I'm with Grifter on this, I just don't see this happening in general, and if so, never for oem boards. The lifeblood of computer gaming is the ability to upgrade your rig at will. I mean, pretty much every instance of trying to use some copy-protection methodology that invalidates software should your hardware change has been met with vociferous objection, almost always enough to get the manufacturer to stop. (looking at you Sony)

The couple instances I know of where such solutions remain viable are niche, embedded system markets, and darned HDCP.

For the problem to be as widespread as Bushnell claims, manufacturers would have to agree on a particular universal specification, and that's not something you can generally keep a lid on. Also, someone would need to be offering the hardware manufacturers significant incentives to do so to make up for the extra tech support and media image costs that would rain down on anyone who tried to do so.

Also, what piece of hardware would be the trojan horse said TPM chip would ride in? Every hardware segment has so many different manufacturers that persuading everyone to put one in, and keep a chip in, and forgo the marketplace advantage of having the sole TPM-less piece of hardware?

Would the software companies start requiring that a TPM chip be present before the software would run? Then that's a software solution, and not only will it be cracked, but they'll lose a large portion of the market.

So yeah... I think Bushnell's off his meds on this one.

[jacktion]

Well since software companies are always complaining about how piracy takes over half of their profits, then I would assume that a completely piracy-free product would be half-price. I would accept these restrictions if the games were a fraction of their cost today. But somehow I don't think that is what will happen.

[BlackPete]

Not gonna happen. Ever.

Intel already tried and failed.

[OUX]

QFT

Seriously people, learn this shit; if someone can write it, someone can crack it.

Bull-fucking-shit. (http://books.google.com/books?id=mBNjq2PSbgAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=james+joyce&client=firefox-a&sig=-HaiHJp20gjbJ4bLs2s4Hik4HJo#PPA1,M1)

[SuicideKing]

Sigh, I keep getting snookered by the no editing here, thus exposing "first draft" awkwardness more often than not. But back on topic. Speaking just for the video game industry, knowing how many people boycott games for, say, using Starforce, I don't see an even more draconian, actual hardware verification system, (as opposed to borked software drivers) ever becoming widespread when it comes to PC games.

[YoungAlCapone]

Bull-fucking-shit. (http://books.google.com/books?id=mBNjq2PSbgAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=james+joyce&client=firefox-a&sig=-HaiHJp20gjbJ4bLs2s4Hik4HJo#PPA1,M1)

Huh?

Plus, I don't appreciate being called out and then sent to a link without explanation, thanks.

[OUX]

Huh?

Plus, I don't appreciate being called out and then sent to a link without explanation, thanks.

*shrug* meh, I am sure other people laughed.

[JediSanf]

Huh?

Plus, I don't appreciate being called out and then sent to a link without explanation, thanks.

Ulysses is unintelligible, thus disproving your statement.

[Heretic Machine]

Sigh, I keep getting snookered by the no editing here, thus exposing "first draft" awkwardness more often than not. But back on topic. Speaking just for the video game industry, knowing how many people boycott games for, say, using Starforce, I don't see an even more draconian, actual hardware verification system, (as opposed to borked software drivers) ever becoming widespread when it comes to PC games.

What "no editing"? I can still edit my posts. You just can't edit the actual news post. I just edited this for the third time to make sure.

[fiercey]

Click, click, flash TPM chip, click click...done.

This will last about as long as the CPU serial numbers Intel tried to do a few years ago.

-f

[YoungAlCapone]

Ulysses is unintelligible, thus disproving your statement.

So it is funny because it is an unintelligible book? Ok.

OUX, next time someone misunderstands one of your jokes maybe you can explain it rather than shrug them off, that isn't very cool.

[OUX]

So it is funny because it is an unintelligible book? Ok.

OUX, next time someone misunderstands one of your jokes maybe you can explain it rather than shrug them off, that isn't very cool.

It isn't matter of shrugging you off, it is just something you understand or you don't. You could have read the first 3 pages and got it.

[wyeast]

Like anyone's gonna invest reading 3 pages to get to the punchline. :p :D

[OUX]

Like anyone's gonna invest reading 3 pages to get to the punchline. :p :D

Fair enough, but explaining the punchline won't make it funny.;)

[TrackZero]

Is this article serious? TPM is an advertised feature on your motherboard, and you can disable it if you don't want to use it. It's not "stealth".

[BleedTheFreak]

If this doesn't cause a problem for someone who has legally purchased a game, I don't have a problem with it. I DO purchase all my software, and I think if piracy was not such a concern, or such a problem (if what I read is true) than maybe the PC industry would be thriving a bit more. As an avid PC gamer/user, I'd like to see this market grow more.

If this is going to be a huge headache even IF you own the software being protected, then fuck that shit.

[Telefrog]

Nolan Bushnell long ago ceased to be relevant.

[Varsity]

Hasn't everybody learned that challenging hackers is a really bad idea?

Only when they can run their code on the system(s) in question. If it's on a remote server (e.g. WOW) or on a machine on which you can't run arbitrary code (e.g. a trusted computing machine in trusted mode) it's possible, though by no means guaranteed, to remain completely secure.

[LongStepMantis]

Good idea.

Now when a rival mobo manufacturer comes along and sells them without these chips, they can clean house in their market. ;)

[SuicideKing]

What "no editing"? I can still edit my posts. You just can't edit the actual news post. I just edited this for the third time to make sure.

For some reason I can't edit any of my posts in a news article thread, I thought I remembered other people complaining about that?

[Speed_D]

There's no such thing as unbreakable DRM when it's implemented on the client side. In this case, you have full physical access to your own PC.

Cracking a game in this case might require hardware measures that most people don't want to do (say, a mod-chip). But someone will get the mod-chip, remove all protection from the software, repackage it nicely and start seeding a torrent. Game over.

Of course in the meantime, we'll all be paying extra for those new motherboards, if the industry actually makes it happen. HDMI televisions with cable cards are sorta the same thing.

[Jotoco]

Good Luck for them.

I will have to keep an eye open when upgrading a PC from now on.

Those people just won't get it, will they?

In some years DRM will be MUCH worse to game sales than piracy. Mark my words.

[jpublic]

*sigh*

TPM chips have been in business PCs for a while. They're on most business laptops and desktops sold after 2006 or so, and it won't be long before Intel and AMD incorporate them into their Southbridge implementations.

Will this affect the gamer market? Possibly. Even though business-class computers tend to have different MBs than enthusiast models, it will be likely that the rising concerns about computer security will have enthusiasts demanding features built into their laptops - HD encryption, biometrics, etc. However, developers can't count on the TPM chip being in every computer, and as part of the TPM guidelines they have to be enabled by the end user in the bios - a computer is not supposed to be shipped with the TPM chip enabled.

I wouldn't expect this any time soon, though. If you look around the industry, TPM is only being considered in business PCs, where it's seen as a desirable and necessary feature. When the enthusiast MBs start to have them onboard, then you can start to worry.

Until and after that day comes, if it ever does, I'll maintain my mantra - as long as it doesn't interfere with me, I won't care.

[Johan]

I find it amusing that few here would admit to being a "pirate" yet many hear of this possibility and automatically declare the need/plan/intention to find a way around it!

Methinks something smells amiss...and in this case, he who smelt it hasn't dealt it! :D

[Jotoco]

I find it amusing that few here would admit to being a "pirate" yet many hear of this possibility and automatically declare the need/plan/intention to find a way around it!

Methinks something smells amiss...and in this case, he who smelt it hasn't dealt it! :D

I can't speak for everyone, but I do upgrade my PC from time to time and want to play my old games.

Hell, this year alone I have replayed Baldur's Gate II, need for speed MW (the best of the series) and several other old games. If I wanted to do that with those dammed chips I wouldn't be able to, because your not using the same PC you built a decade ago.

That is way I'm concerned, at least. I just love old games. (Hey I played starcraft some time ago again, too

I could picture and post some of the original CDs I have laying around if it makes you feel better?

[Exodus]

I pirate Evil Avatar... I read the forums for free...
prease don't put a tpm on Evil Avatar forums Evil Avatar ._.

[BlackPete]

I find it amusing that few here would admit to being a "pirate" yet many hear of this possibility and automatically declare the need/plan/intention to find a way around it!

Methinks something smells amiss...and in this case, he who smelt it hasn't dealt it! :D

I bought the PC version of Bioshock and hated the DRM process enough that I traded it for a 360 version.

Or put another way: When you point at someone, four fingers are pointing right back at you :D

[Johan]

When you point at someone, four fingers are pointing right back at you :D

I only have one finger on each hand. :D

*eats the others really, really quickly*

I could picture and post some of the original CDs I have laying around if it makes you feel better?

Photoshop?!?

*points remaining fingers*

[Jotoco]

Photoshop?!?

*points remaining fingers*

HEY! I don't even HAVE phoshop (pirated or otherwise) and even then can't use it.

I understand your point. I live in a country where, if you ever buy something original (and pay 10 times more than the pirated one, yes, pirated games are sold in the streets) you are called an idiot.

Even though I do not buy most games I play (that's where a nice, big, friend circle comes in) I do buy most games that I, personally, rate above 9. I buy games, but only VERY good games.

[Dr.Finger]

I find it amusing that few here would admit to being a "pirate" yet many hear of this possibility and automatically declare the need/plan/intention to find a way around it!

Methinks something smells amiss...and in this case, he who smelt it hasn't dealt it! :DReally. Did you pirate all of those XBLA games you're having problems with? That's why. Because more and more DRM is used not to fight piracy as much as it's used to keep you from using your own property fairly.

I'm not going to lie, I've pirated stuff before - from every form of media possible - and I'll do it again, but when it's potentially hidden in the hardware that pisses me off.

[walkstheplanes]

While DRM presses down on consumers and Pirates, the Ninja menace continues to grow unhindered.

[LongStepMantis]

Really. Did you pirate all of those XBLA games you're having problems with? That's why. Because more and more DRM is used not to fight piracy as much as it's used to keep you from using your own property fairly.


That's the thing. If it was just some super-protection that could detect pirated copies/hardware through magic and render them useless, I wouldn't care.

I'm just concerned with how their measures to inconvenience pirates are equally effective against someone who buys it. I've had to crack some of my store-bought PC games because the protection was so overbearing at times that I would get noticeable performance increases by blocking them out. And the entire idea of hard-locking specific hardware configurations is retarded. But that's never stopped them before.

[LongStepMantis]

While DRM presses down on consumers and Pirates, the Ninja menace continues to grow unhindered.

Ninjas eat DRM systems for breakfast.

[Johan]

Frankly, sometimes I think I'm a total idiot, because unlike some here, I actually buy the games I own...and always have. I have a crap-load of games, and I actually pay. I've resisted DS piracy, though I know how to do it...I've resisted PC piracy, though I know how to do it...360 piracy is possible, but I haven't examined it terribly closely.

I must be a fool, I guess. I have a few hundred games, all paid for. I do have a handful of ROMs of ancient games, so I'm not innocent, but I'm pretty close. Oh well...Hell, I don't even have any pirated music! I have a few movies on VHS; is that piracy? Considering the quality, I highly doubt anyone here would even be able to tell what movies they are!

[ÜberJumper]

For those of you who enjoy PC games, it's time to pick an encryption method that impacts us least and back it the fuck up, otherwise PC gaming's going away as a hobby.

[boratika]

"Uncrackable"

lulz

[Xed]

Or put another way: When you point at someone, four fingers are pointing right back at you :D

Is that a common saying in the english-speaking parts of the world? If so, how the fuck do you guys bend your thumbs?

[TrackZero]

Frankly, sometimes I think I'm a total idiot, because unlike some here, I actually buy the games I own...

So do many of us. I think the worry some people are having here is that what Bushnell is discussing is linking games to your motherboard. So when you get a new one, suddenly your game you paid for doesn't work anymore.

Of course, this whole story is bunk from a guy who doesn't understand the tech he's talking about, so it's a non-issue.