[Rumor] - Wrath of the Lich King in 2008?

[Pigeon]

Vivendi has issued a press release (http://www.vivendi.com/corp/en/press_2008/documents/20080514_PR_Q12008.pdf) with their earnings for Q1 2008. Nestled in that release is this:

This image has the details. (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/may/wotlkvivendi.jpg)

With all of the WotLK previews coming out recently this rumor gets a slight amount of credibility.

Yes, I'm fully aware Blizzard normally doesn't put things out on time.

[Heretic Machine]

...Wasn't this already known?

[Eric_T_Cheng]

I'm pissed because I've yet to see Hyjal or the Black Temple.

[Darkmatter]

What was that you say? Vivendi knows AOC is coming out and they'll say anything to hold onto as many customers as possible? Nooooooo shit...

Every company that has EVER had a major MMO out has ALWAYS put out some sort of notice about their next great expansion whenever another big MMO has been set to be released. It would only be news worthy if it DIDN'T happen...

[sparx394]

It'd be nice, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Instead, I'm gonna pick up Age of Conan and see what it's all about

[mightbe]

BC was in external beta ~8 months before release IIRC. If we don't see an external beta soon, I doubt they'll make 08.

[mightbe]

I'm pissed because I've yet to see Hyjal or the Black Temple.

There's no attunement now, it's not too difficult to get in there.

[silv]

I'll be very surprised if they make 08. It should already be in beta (which it's not), and if you listen to the interviews they have a lot of work ahead of themselves still.

They have also spoken of a 'interim' patch between now and WOTLK with some small additional content. This isn't including the planned patch that lays the groundwork (storyline, npc's, etc) for WOTLK, like the one that added all the stuff for TBC.

[Aaron Patridge]

...Wasn't this already known?

I believe so. Their target has been Christmas 2008 for some time. However, they do not have the content in testing yet and I haven't read about how they are going to select beta testers. Plus, they tested BC for about six months and BC didn't have any new classes that could upset PvP and PvE balance, so who knows when it will actually come out.

[Aaron Patridge]

I'll be very surprised if they make 08. It should already be in beta (which it's not), and if you listen to the interviews they have a lot of work ahead of themselves still.

Sorry, I don't think your post was up when I typed, and you say something very similar but in more depth.

I'm not going to get Age of Conan until they offer a free demo. Usually, I get to try out MMOs during the beta. I'm not willing to pay $50 on MMOs when so few of them deliver on their promise.

[Telefrog]

What was that you say? Vivendi knows AOC is coming out and they'll say anything to hold onto as many customers as possible? Nooooooo shit...

Every company that has EVER had a major MMO out has ALWAYS put out some sort of notice about their next great expansion whenever another big MMO has been set to be released. It would only be news worthy if it DIDN'T happen...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Blizzard/Activision isn't all that worried about Age of Conan. Not at all.

[Eric_T_Cheng]

There's no attunement now, it's not too difficult to get in there.

The lack of attunement isn't the issue. It's getting twenty-four other people who not only are decently geared but know what they're doing.

I recently transferred to a new server and any "end game" guild aren't looking for new recruits. :(

[silv]

The lack of attunement isn't the issue. It's getting twenty-four other people who not only are decently geared but know what they're doing.

I recently transferred to a new server and any "end game" guild aren't looking for new recruits. :(

There are plenty of guilds looking for people. I'd recommend the guild recruitment forums on the official WoW boards. It's sickening how active that forum is.

[mightbe]

Heh. BT/Hyjal is raided by more than 10 guilds on the horde side alone (and countless other Raid Organizations and Pugs) of Scarlet Crusade and we're hardly high pop.

I guess I'm lucky to have a nice guild but it's not like we're terribly organized or hardcore raiders. we're three bosses into BT and have cleared Hyjal.

[mightbe]

Sorry, I don't think your post was up when I typed, and you say something very similar but in more depth.

I'm not going to get Age of Conan until they offer a free demo. Usually, I get to try out MMOs during the beta. I'm not willing to pay $50 on MMOs when so few of them deliver on their promise.

Actually, if you have an early access code you could play the game for 10 days for 5 dollars.

Getting the early access code just requires a bit of social engineering at your local game shop (I highly recommend EB/GS for this).

[Telefrog]

Actually, if you have an early access code you could play the game for 10 days for 5 dollars.

Getting the early access code just requires a bit of social engineering at your local game shop (I highly recommend EB/GS for this).

10 days for 5 dollars isn't "free" which I believe he stated is what he's waiting for.

[Aaron Patridge]

There are plenty of guilds looking for people. I'd recommend the guild recruitment forums on the official WoW boards. It's sickening how active that forum is.

I don't like big guilds that are all about raiding. Fortunately, you can PvP for really great gear. I'd prefer all the raid content to be 5-man dungeons because I'll actually go see those, and I think 10-man is okay too. . . that isn't too difficult for a small guild of friends to put together, but when you get to 25-man, it suddenly becomes this big hassle that seems to require a lot of stuff that just isn't fun.

It is great for people who really like that though. I know that I sometimes go to a lot of trouble to enter bike races and amateur tennis tournaments, but we never have to exclude anyone from those, and if someone performs poorly or doesn't show up then the entire event isn't ruined. Also, no one ever fights over trophies. Large raids just seem like more effort and drama than they are worth. . . though I would honestly like to see the content.

[mightbe]

10 days for 5 dollars isn't "free" which I believe he stated is what he's waiting for.

Wow. I'd suggest that you're just too fucking cheap if you're not willing to pay five clams to try a full version of a game that you're interested in for ten days.

Think of it like a rental.

Now if the rational was based on "I'm waiting to see how the launch goes" or "I want to see some reviews" then I completely understand.

[Telefrog]

Wow. I'd suggest that you're just too fucking cheap if you're not willing to pay five clams to try a full version of a game that you're interested in for ten days.

Think of it like a rental.

Now if the rational was based on "I'm waiting to see how the launch goes" or "I want to see some reviews" then I completely understand.

Don't get all huffy at me. He specifically said free. Your reply had a monetary requirement. I'm sorry if "free" and "5 dollars" mean the same thing to you when they do not.

Just to be clear, I personally would never pay for any demo of any game, ever.

[Mashidar]

I expect the game to come out around the time that Warhammer launches. I don't think they care too much about Conan and I don't know to many folks that are playing it besides EvAv folks. Warhammer on the other hand seems to have enough hype behind it that releasing this expansion around the time of Warhammer's release would effect there sales a bit.

[mightbe]

Don't get all huffy at me. He specifically said free. Your reply had a monetary requirement. I'm sorry if "free" and "5 dollars" mean the same thing to you when they do not.

Just to be clear, I personally would never pay for any demo of any game, ever.

It's not a demo. It's the full game.

For 10 days. Without having to buy a copy of the game.

[Karmakin]

BTW, as I haven't seen it posted here, there's a change for the raiding structure in WotLK. Every raid instance is going to have a 10-man and a 25 man mode. The 25 man mode features a higher level of difficulty and better loot.

Some people don't like it, some people do. I think it's a great idea, and it facilitates all sorts of progression. That said, I hope that the 25-man bosses will have additional complexity to learn and it won't simply be a retread.

[Camel]

BTW, as I haven't seen it posted here, there's a change for the raiding structure in WotLK. Every raid instance is going to have a 10-man and a 25 man mode. The 25 man mode features a higher level of difficulty and better loot.

Some people don't like it, some people do. I think it's a great idea, and it facilitates all sorts of progression. That said, I hope that the 25-man bosses will have additional complexity to learn and it won't simply be a retread.
My guess would be that it would sort of be like the differences between normal and heroic dungeons, only bigger. Bosses would have additional moves, require different strategies, etc.

I love the decision, because I love 10-man groups.

[silv]

My guess would be that it would sort of be like the differences between normal and heroic dungeons, only bigger. Bosses would have additional moves, require different strategies, etc.

I love the decision, because I love 10-man groups.

Amen. I have seen most of BT in 25man, and it just gets tiring with the burnout and dealing with 30-35 people on a daily basis.

I definitely prefer 10man raids.

[Sloth]

Fits with the dates for Blizzcon which are in Oct this year.

[PsychoticVile]

I would say the key word in that press release is that it is "Scheduled" to be released in 2008. I do know that Blizzard is planning on releasing Wrath in 3 seperate patches though so it is possible we could get the first part of it this year.

[mightbe]

My guess would be that it would sort of be like the differences between normal and heroic dungeons, only bigger. Bosses would have additional moves, require different strategies, etc.

I love the decision, because I love 10-man groups.

I completely agree. I'm sure I'll hit 25's at some point but it's just much easier to coordinate the time and people for a 10 man.

[Karmakin]

Well, TBC was released in 5 parts as well. Each content update had a new raid. There isn't anything wrong with this, in theory, as players will take some time to gear up for the next level. There were some problems, with the long period of time between Black Temple and Sunwell,

The content in WotLK is arranged differently than the content in TBC. There seems to be more quest content and less instanced content for 70-79. This is actually a good thing in my mind, as there's too much in TBC which makes it difficult to find a group. And once people hit 80, at this point I'm willing to bet that most players are going to finish up getting blues, then are going to be off to 10-man Naxx and never look back. (Naxx is the first raid in WotLK).

In multi-player games, there does come a point where that sometimes less is more. WoW I think is really at that point, at least in terms of 5-man group play.

[Kem0sabe]

I have it from a reliable source, that WotLK is still in an internal alpha phase and it wont hit the closed beta for some time.

It will not come out in 2008, no matter how anyone spins it, its a fact.

Hopefuly AoC and WAR will fill your mmorpg needs. Tho i would not advise you to expect WAR before late fall up to Dec of 2008.

[lockwoodx]

I'm pissed because I've yet to see Hyjal or the Black Temple.

I'm in the same boat. There is no point to even bothering to catch up now especially since I dsipise arenas. I will just give AoC a try while I'm waiting for WAR.

[HotCod]

I tend to drift in and out of playing WoW mainly when i hit the raiding content i just can't be bothered with it... i mean when i last stoped playing i was half a level to 70 had set up a list of all the pre kara gear i needed and where to get it and had a guild i could go raid with but i just lost intrest and drifted out a bit.

I will pick up wrath simply beacuse i enjoy leveling and exporing, it nice to hear its more quest based with less intances... i haven't done a single BC instance yet beacuse when ever i had time to do one i couldn't get a good togather... but yes... it all sounds like there bringing the end game and such in to line with a way that would keep me playing when i hit the 80 cap

[court12b]

I'm in the same boat. There is no point to even bothering to catch up now especially since I dsipise arenas. I will just give AoC a try while I'm waiting for WAR.

It's funny. I was actually just reading last night how at least some reroll and new raiding guilds have been displaying amazing amounts of progress lately.

http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/nite_moogle/11-serious_casual_what_hell_happened_here.html

It sounds like since players can easily get respectable loot from badges that they can gear up and step into SSC/TK without too much difficulty.

Gotta say it's sounding damn tempting >.<

[The Ligand]

I have yet to play WoW, but you can hear my voice on the original game as well as both expansions. Singing in orcish is fun!

[Camel]

It's funny. I was actually just reading last night how at least some reroll and new raiding guilds have been displaying amazing amounts of progress lately.

http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/nite_moogle/11-serious_casual_what_hell_happened_here.html

It sounds like since players can easily get respectable loot from badges that they can gear up and step into SSC/TK without too much difficulty.

Gotta say it's sounding damn tempting >.<
It's true. I resubscribed to WoW with the intention of transferring my druid to the EvAv server, until I found out that I couldn't move from PVE to PVP. I ended up joining the guild of a friend from college, and I went from having mostly gear that I got from quests and a few instances to being respectably geared (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Bludo). I really really like doing 10-man Karazhan runs, and doing Zul Aman (also 10 man) is great fun as well. Even if the stuff you want isn't dropping, there are lots of great pieces of armor and other things to get from badges, so you never feel like you wasted your time.

The guild I am in also does Magtheridon, Gruul's Lair, and SSC as well, but I really don't like raiding more than a few times a week or on weekends. Plus, if you haven't been playing for a while, there are lots of other fun things to do. Since I came back, I have made a helicopter, caught a super rare lobster, and put an unholy weapon enchant on a broom.

[cp#]

Another pointless font page story. It isn't a fucking rumor.

StarCraft 2 in 2008, now that would be a rumor.

[Bushido]

Anyone else scared AoC will be a bug fuck like Anarchy Online? WoW is just mean to its casuals. I dont think content should be restricted to any subscriber, especially people with ADD like me that cant put up with 25 bitches. It always amazed me that at level 70 so many people still dont know how to play.

[S1n1star]

Hear me now and believe me later: WAR is to DAoC what Vanguard is to EQ. That is all.

[GreenIce]

Supposedly leaked patch notes on MMO champion. These have been pretty accurate in the past.

Quote from Blizzard staff
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King: Friends and Family Alpha
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome to the World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King Friends and Family Alpha. The list below contains information on the current available content available for testing and general information. This information is subject to change.

General
- The continent of Northrend is now available! To travel there, visit one of four transportation masters in either Orgrimmar, Undercity, Theramore,or Menethil Harbor.
- Transportation between Howling Fjord and Borean Tundra can be found at the Tuskarr villages in those zones.
- NPC Transportation Locations
Horde:
Undercity to Vengeance Landing (Howling Fjord)
Orgrimmar to Warsong Hold (Borean Tundra)
Alliance:
Menethil Harbor to Valgarde (Holwing Fjord)
Theramore Valiance Keep (Borean Tundra)

World Environment Zones
- The following zones are available for testing: Howling Fjord, Borean Tundra, Dragonblight, and Grizzly Hills

Dungeons
- The following dungeons are available for testing:
Howling Fjord: Utgarde Keep (70-72)
Howling Fjord: Utgarde Pinnacle (80)
Borean Tundra: The Nexus (70-72)
Grizzly Hills: Drak’Tharon Keep (74-76)

Classes
- All Classes are available for play. Spells and talents will be available for testing past 70 for the following classes: Druid, Mage, Priest, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior
- The Death Knight Hero class is now available for play.
Creating a new Death Knight will start you at level 55 in Eastern Plaguelands.
No starting quests are implemented though Death Knight abilities will be available for testing.
Several Death Knight talents, although they will appear on the talent pane, are not yet implemented.

Professions
- The following tradeskills are available to train up to 450: First Aid, Herbalism, Mining, and Skinning.

[Blue]

I'm still hoping for a bit more time before WotLK hits as I'm in a guild that's just now getting into the progression portion of raiding. My gear isn't awful, isn't great. We have Kara and Gruul on farm and have taken down Mag three times now in the past three times we've attempted him (where we had previously been getting drop-kicked).

Tonight we attempt SSC for the first time so we're slowly chipping away at things. I'd love to see BT and Hyjal and while I know I could probably pop back and do so at 80, I'm hoping we at least get the chance to get in there and have a crack at that content. Sunwell doesn't interest me too much as I know that's going to be well out of my reach :)

For me, it's not so much about gear (which is still always nice and necessary) but more about seeing new stuff and progressing with friends and finally downing that boss that you struggled on for such a long time. I look forward to the 10 mans in WotLK, I only hope I get a decent amount of time to cap off what I can in TBC.

[Pigeon]

Another pointless font page story. It isn't a fucking rumor.

StarCraft 2 in 2008, now that would be a rumor.

Well then *YOU* post some news, Mr Crankypants

[Furious Wang]

What was that you say? Vivendi knows AOC is coming out and they'll say anything to hold onto as many customers as possible? Nooooooo shit...

Every company that has EVER had a major MMO out has ALWAYS put out some sort of notice about their next great expansion whenever another big MMO has been set to be released. It would only be news worthy if it DIDN'T happen...

What's hilarious is that people were saying the same thing when The Burning Crusade was scheduled for release. Warhammer and Age of Conan have been delayed for so long its absurd. Blizzard will have put out two expansions before either game is released.

Regardless, I see this as a high probability. Blizzard has been ramping up the WotlK previews lately. It sounds like everything for the first set of zones and instances is in place. The first raid instance is going to be the last raid instance of the original game so it shouldn't take much tuning. The new class is guaranteed to be overpowered as a marketing tool so they probably aren't going to waste much time trying to tune it for balance yet. The rest of the content they have planned could easily be released incrementally and it would actually be better for the game.

I quit about a year ago and recently reactivated to a changed game progression wise. Its easier for the average man to progress now due to icnreased Badge of Justice availability and gear, more and better pvp rewards, tuned heroics, attunement removal, and tuned raid encounters. Blizzard finally got their shit together with BC pretty much. If there was a problem at the beginning I imagine it would be because they had so much content for the expansion that any length of beta test wouldn't expose a lot of the problems. If the go with shorter but more focused beta tests for WotLK releasing small increments of content at a time, I think they'll see a lot less of the problems they had with tBC.

So ya, I don't think christmas 2008 is much of a stretch for WoTLK's release date. Though if AoC and War are delayed again I'm sure they'll probably take more time polishing what they got and release WoTLK later.

[cp#]

Well then *YOU* post some news, Mr Crankypants

Here's something not a year old: http://www.gamespot.com/pages/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=26389103

[RMan]

Yea, I pretty much stopped raiding because I don't find 25 man raids fun, I'd rather wait for an expansion and play old 25 mans as 10 man or less. Having the option for 10 mans is great, because I can skip 25 mans completely, and I think this is going to be another change (like most things WoW brings to the table) that opens the game to less hardcore types and makes it more fun for a far larger player base. Now they just need some mechanism for warping alts through levels, game gets awful boring playing the same class and leveling is far too time consuming and boring now (again indicating Blizzard wants me paying power levelers). You should be able to find or earn experience books or something that can be given to alts.

[Aaron Patridge]

BTW, as I haven't seen it posted here, there's a change for the raiding structure in WotLK. Every raid instance is going to have a 10-man and a 25 man mode. The 25 man mode features a higher level of difficulty and better loot.

Some people don't like it, some people do. I think it's a great idea, and it facilitates all sorts of progression. That said, I hope that the 25-man bosses will have additional complexity to learn and it won't simply be a retread.

Are they going to advance the PvP gear so that those of us who refuse to join hardcore PvE guilds can continue to be competitive at what we enjoy (PvP)?

[Yellowman]

Here's something not a year old: http://www.gamespot.com/pages/news/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=26389103

Yeah, I read about that and it seemed pretty cool. Only problem is apparently you can't actually watch those videos on YouTube, only on youtube through the PS3 because of some proprietary codec the PS3 uses. Kind of limits the whole thing, really.

[Darkmatter]

What's hilarious is that people were saying the same thing when The Burning Crusade was scheduled for release. Warhammer and Age of Conan have been delayed for so long its absurd.

<Middle of post cut out>

Though if AoC and War are delayed again I'm sure they'll probably take more time polishing what they got and release WoTLK later.

AoC is coming out in a few days. The servers are already up for some of the people who pre-ordered and got "early access".

[Karmakin]

Are they going to advance the PvP gear so that those of us who refuse to join hardcore PvE guilds can continue to be competitive at what we enjoy (PvP)?

Actually, they've already been doing that with TBC. In fact, it's actually quite the opposite. So I don't see what you're getting at.

In case you don't know, in TBC, the big stat for PvP is Resilience. It lowers the chance and damage taken from crit attacks (and Damage over Time spells). And pretty much only PvP gear (which does scale Item Level wise with PvE gear) has this stat. There are some exceptions, but these exceptions are crap.

To think that there won't be a WotLK S1 arena gear once you hit 80, quite frankly is silly.

[Furious Wang]

Actually, they've already been doing that with TBC. In fact, it's actually quite the opposite. So I don't see what you're getting at.

In case you don't know, in TBC, the big stat for PvP is Resilience. It lowers the chance and damage taken from crit attacks (and Damage over Time spells). And pretty much only PvP gear (which does scale Item Level wise with PvE gear) has this stat. There are some exceptions, but these exceptions are crap.

To think that there won't be a WotLK S1 arena gear once you hit 80, quite frankly is silly.

ya its been a fact for some time that to be truly competetive at pvp one must have the gear rewards from arena/honor pvp

the pve gear just doesn't cut it in the real competetive pvp matches.

[Aaron Patridge]

To think that there won't be a WotLK S1 arena gear once you hit 80, quite frankly is silly.

Karmakin - I'm aware that there is battleground PvP gear and arena gear (I prefer battlegrounds because the arenas are just deathmatch over and over, and you have to organize with other players on your team when to play instead of just being able to play with whomever is currently on). I think my post that asked the question indicated this too.

Why do you think it is silly to think that they would stop having top tier equivalent PvP gear as PvP rewards? They really only added worthwhile PvP gear with the Burning Crusade. For most of WoW's existence, PvP was dominated by PvE guilds. WoW endgame has always been most aimed at raiding guilds (PvE) rather than PvP.

While I think it would be silly of Blizzard to stop rewarding PvP equivalently with PvE due to the success of BC, they definitely have a bias towards supporting raiding. Just look at how many raid instances they are always adding while there are still only four battlegrounds and the most highly rewarded one, Alterac Valley, is a broken mess.

[BlackPete]

My major pet peeve about WoW is that the main lore characters are locked up in the high end raid zones that only maybe 5% of the gaming population will ever see, if even that.

I don't mind the existence of raid zones but they're not my cup of tea. However I'd still like to be able to see the story without having to get 25+ players... and with 25 players, how do you feel you really matter in the story anyway?

This is where I think FFXI did it right. Raid zones were basically optional so they were still there if you wanted the challenge and good loot, but the main story is available to all (and in fact required if you want to advance in ranks).

[mightbe]

My major pet peeve about WoW is that the main lore characters are locked up in the high end raid zones that only maybe 5% of the gaming population will ever see, if even that.

I don't mind the existence of raid zones but they're not my cup of tea. However I'd still like to be able to see the story without having to get 25+ players... and with 25 players, how do you feel you really matter in the story anyway?

This is where I think FFXI did it right. Raid zones were basically optional so they were still there if you wanted the challenge and good loot, but the main story is available to all (and in fact required if you want to advance in ranks).

I think that you'll continue seeing more epic events in 5 mans.

And if you haven't tried 10 man raiding, I severely suggest it. It's a fucking blast and a half.

[Aaron Patridge]

I think that you'll continue seeing more epic events in 5 mans.

And if you haven't tried 10 man raiding, I severely suggest it. It's a fucking blast and a half.

Pretend I won a million dollars ten years ago and that I became a major stakeholder in Blizzard with that money. Here is what I would do:

All instances are designed as 5 or 10-man affairs except for a very select few that are 25-man boss encounters. You don't mess with trash mobs or anything that requires boring pulling, and you don't need to "gear up" for the encounter as they can all be beaten by highly skilled players who have moderately good gear as long as you play skillfully.

[Kem0sabe]

Pretend I won a million dollars ten years ago and that I became a major stakeholder in Blizzard with that money. Here is what I would do:

All instances are designed as 5 or 10-man affairs except for a very select few that are 25-man boss encounters. You don't mess with trash mobs or anything that requires boring pulling, and you don't need to "gear up" for the encounter as they can all be beaten by highly skilled players who have moderately good gear as long as you play skillfully.

I think LotRO did it right. You had a constant storyline that pulled your character inside the lore and with a constant interaction with the major lore characters.

Right now im trying the Age of Conan Early access, and im finding it really tight in terms of story telling as well.

Pitty WoW's main characters/villains are all locked away in raid encounters, and every single one of the them is 50 meters tall :rolleyes:

[BlackPete]

I think that you'll continue seeing more epic events in 5 mans.

And if you haven't tried 10 man raiding, I severely suggest it. It's a fucking blast and a half.

Haven't tried 10 man but then again I'm not in a guild either -- the last guild I was in basically fell apart due to in-fighting drama, yadda yadda, and I don't really want to go through that again. On the flip side, most PUGs just completely and utterly SUCK.

So it's either join another guild, or pray I find a good 10-man PUG -- not exactly an appealing choice to make so I just abandoned WoW altogether.

It's too bad, though... I really wanted to see Illidian and eventually Arthas. However, without even reading ANY info, I already just assume Arthas will require a 25-man raid just to /wave at him, much less fight him.

[BlackPete]

Right now im trying the Age of Conan Early access, and im finding it really tight in terms of story telling as well.

This is really encouraging to hear. I should give Conan a shot, then!

Pitty WoW's main characters/villains are all locked away in raid encounters, and every single one of the them is 50 meters tall :rolleyes:

I wonder if that cheese will taste good on crackers? :D

[mightbe]

Haven't tried 10 man but then again I'm not in a guild either -- the last guild I was in basically fell apart due to in-fighting drama, yadda yadda, and I don't really want to go through that again. On the flip side, most PUGs just completely and utterly SUCK.

So it's either join another guild, or pray I find a good 10-man PUG -- not exactly an appealing choice to make so I just abandoned WoW altogether.

It's too bad, though... I really wanted to see Illidian and eventually Arthas. However, without even reading ANY info, I already just assume Arthas will require a 25-man raid just to /wave at him, much less fight him.

Every raid in the expansion is playable as a 10 man.

[Camel]

Haven't tried 10 man but then again I'm not in a guild either -- the last guild I was in basically fell apart due to in-fighting drama, yadda yadda, and I don't really want to go through that again. On the flip side, most PUGs just completely and utterly SUCK.

So it's either join another guild, or pray I find a good 10-man PUG -- not exactly an appealing choice to make so I just abandoned WoW altogether.

It's too bad, though... I really wanted to see Illidian and eventually Arthas. However, without even reading ANY info, I already just assume Arthas will require a 25-man raid just to /wave at him, much less fight him.
It's kind of crazy how borderline traumatic a guild breakup can be. The reason I quit WoW twice in the past were because of guilds breaking up. It's such a hassle to find a good group of people sometimes!

[mightbe]

It's kind of crazy how borderline traumatic a guild breakup can be. The reason I quit WoW twice in the past were because of guilds breaking up. It's such a hassle to find a good group of people sometimes!

I may be biased but:

Camel + Guild Angst (http://www.guildangst.org) = Friends

[asimonk]

Are they going to advance the PvP gear so that those of us who refuse to join hardcore PvE guilds can continue to be competitive at what we enjoy (PvP)?

PVP gear will always exist. However, in a recent interview, Kaplan stated that they felt PVP gear was too easy to acquire compared to PVE equivalents. A lot of this can already be seen in the S4 arena gear. Personal rating requirements are on basically everything.

Also, with the most recent badge gears, there is no reason to NOT go see BT or Hyjal. There is little reason to still be in SSC or TK. The first few bosses in BT are a complete joke.