Should You Buy a Hard Drive With Your 360?

[AaronGF]

Gamesfirst.com has an editorial up (http://www.gamesfirst.com/?id=479) discussing the possible reasons for having a hard drive in your Xbox 360. Pulling from interviews with Bethesda, and TeamXbox’s interviews with Epic Games and Microsoft’s Scott Henson, the article breaks down a few different uses of the hard drive, and why you possibly will or will not want to buy one at launch. The article discusses factors like the size of the current generation’s downloadable Live content, the memory cards available for the Xbox 360, and the increased speed of the Xbox 360’s DVD drive.

[Kelegacy]

Well, you shouldnt buy a HD, because that would be stupid. Just buy the "premium" system and you'll be saving yourself heartache and alot of dough. I dont condone MS for this stupid dual release, but getting the complete system is the way to go if you dont want to spend more money down the road.

[Mason]

Hmm, he claims knowledge that they've "speeded up" the 360 DVD drive, but no numbers about what speed the drive will be. Again, I appeal for information on this topic if anyone has some.

[Heretic Machine]

Solution to the dual release: Don't buy a 360, show that it's not ok to do things like this.

[swegamer]

I don't want to reveal sources, but as a person involved in the industry I know some games will require a harddrive.

This is hush-hushed from all areas. Truth is I know about at least one specific title that demands the harddrive to work. The memorycard simply isn't enough, neither the amount of the memory the Xbox 360 has to work with.

As I keep my self anonymous and don't give out any names I know it is difficult to take my word for it. Most probably you shouldn't either.

But personally I find it likely that we in the current future will se game boxes stamped with "harddrive required".

[Kelegacy]

Solution to the dual release: Don't buy a 360, show that it's not ok to do things like this.

Hey, that's what i'm doing! By the time I pick up a 360 there will be a solid library of games to keep me occupied (not just for a couple weeks/month) and it will have dropped in price once or twice.

The PS3 will have to wait too. Unless something truly extraordinary comes along and screams "You have to buy me!" which I dont think will happen.

[bapenguin]

does this article have a point?

[Kelegacy]

I don't want to reveal sources, but as a person involved in the industry I know some games will require a harddrive.

This is hush-hushed from all areas. Truth is I know about at least one specific title that demands the harddrive to work. The memorycard simply isn't enough, neither the amount of the memory the Xbox 360 has to work with.

As I keep my self anonymous and don't give out any names I know it is difficult to take my word for it. Most probably you shouldn't either.

But personally I find it likely that we in the current future will se game boxes stamped with "harddrive required".

If that becomes true, MS will lose all credibility (it's losing some now that it gained this past generation) and I hope they suffer for it. That'd be truly misleading...no, slimy and predatory, rather. People who buy the Core system will have to shell out more money just to take advantage of the stupid system.

[amusedtoe]

Until Microsoft makes it more important then the Live headset, which they're not, it's going to be a huge glorified memory card.

[Draft]

Eh, I'm over this. The standard hardrive was a videogame moment that had its time in the sun, and died. Accept it and move on. Of course, when I DO pick up a 360, it'll be the premium pack, because you get a lot more stuff for your extra $100.

[Tricky Thumb]

To be honest I would buy the harddrive for saves, XBL updates and music alone... I've grown far too used to custom soundtracks and I will not be without them on the 360.

[Heretic Machine]

Eh, I'm over this. The standard hardrive was a videogame moment that had its time in the sun, and died. Accept it and move on. Of course, when I DO pick up a 360, it'll be the premium pack, because you get a lot more stuff for your extra $100.


I hate this argument. It's the one that every Microsoft fanboy is bringing up these days. "The hard-drive isn't that cool or useful! That's why I'm getting one!"

[Dragos]

Why do these stories keep getting posted? Same comments by the same trolls and fanboys on both sides over and over again, it's really fucking redundant.

[Heretic Machine]

Why do these stories keep getting posted? Same comments by the same trolls and fanboys on both sides over and over again, it's really fucking redundant.

The only thing that is original are the newbies like you who come in and say shit like that.

[Draft]

I hate this argument. It's the one that every Microsoft fanboy is bringing up these days. "The hard-drive isn't that cool or useful! That's why I'm getting one!"Try and not have a coronary there, pal. I'm an Xbox fan, not an Xbox 360 fan, and I'm not buying one at launch.

[AaronGF]

Mason, the original Xbox has a 5x DVD, the Xbox 360 has a 12x. That's from the interview with Scott Henson, in which he says, "To address load times which are enhanced by caching information to the hard drive, we’ve invested in a super fast DVD that is more than two times faster than the first Xbox (Xbox was 5X and Xbox 360 is 12X)."

Hope that helps.

[B_Money]

I hate this argument. It's the one that every Microsoft fanboy is bringing up these days. "The hard-drive isn't that cool or useful! That's why I'm getting one!"

Which is strange, because that's not what he said. It was nice of you to include the quote though, so we can all see how you missed his point.

[Heretic Machine]

The standard hardrive was a videogame moment that had its time in the sun, and died.

"It wasn't that useful."

Accept it and move on.

"Quit whining and spend as much money as I am!"

Of course, when I DO pick up a 360, it'll be the premium pack, because you get a lot more stuff for your extra $100.

"Hard-drives are teh pwnage p00r bitches."

Does that help out those who can't read between the lines?

[Bushido]

Yeah cause the hard drive on my computer is totaly useless

[endrom]

"It wasn't that useful."



"Quit whining and spend as much money as I am!"



"Hard-drives are teh pwnage p00r bitches."

Does that help out those who can't read between the lines?


For that I really won't ever respect your view on anything now, since your just trying to pick at a sour wound. For me, I'll probably get all 3 systems over time. I'm looking forward to the next big title, not the next big feature on a console. It could shoot laser guided steaks into my mouth and i still wouldn't buy it. Game evoled way past playing want you always wanted to do in a game to fighting over how faster or how amazing the game or conzole can make it look. I hate when a new generation comes along I really do. But I will be getting premium, becuase i know that developers will require it for games. Why let the ability for a better experience go to waste. *** is also trying to help people who can't afford the full thing, people just Can't see that. PS2 never had a hard drive but if more amazing title needed it back in the day, more people would have bought it. Im spent.......

[Zeal]

Anyone who says they wouldn't rather have a harddrive on the 360 is an idiot. Period.

[civx]

mciro if hardrive the cake with the 360 then where save lol but if you box then maybe

[Heretic Machine]

It could shoot laser guided steaks into my mouth and i still wouldn't buy it.

Ya, I can tell that you're really thrifty.

For me, I'll probably get all 3 systems over time.

Now, before you make another post, why don't you go ahead and check out a book on grammar and spelling.

[Kelegacy]

*** is also trying to help people who can't afford the full thing, people just Can't see that.

Do you honestly believe that? The core buyers are going to get fucked harder than a prostitute on Nickel Night.

[Achilles]

If that becomes true, MS will lose all credibility (it's losing some now that it gained this past generation) and I hope they suffer for it. That'd be truly misleading...no, slimy and predatory, rather. People who buy the Core system will have to shell out more money just to take advantage of the stupid system.How do you think MMORPGs are going to work? FFXI will require a hard drive. So will any other MMORPG that comes out on the system like Huxley.

[Kelegacy]

How do you think MMORPGs are going to work? FFXI will require a hard drive. So will any other MMORPG that comes out on the system like Huxley.

I think that's a little different. Maybe MS should clarify the situation for potential MMORPG subscribers who want to buy the core pack. I dont think they want to though; they know they'll get more dough by keeping lowkey.

I mean for games other than MMORPGs, and I was replying to the guy who was being discreet and anonymous about knowing that future games will require it. Theoretically, if that's true, if more and more games come labeled "HARD DRIVE REQUIRED" than that's a shady business practice.

[Achilles]

I think that's a little different. Maybe MS should clarify the situation for potential MMORPG subscribers who want to buy the core pack. I dont think they want to though; they know they'll get more dough by keeping lowkey.

I mean for games other than MMORPGs, and I was replying to the guy who was being discreet and anonymous about knowing that future games will require it. Theoretically, if that's true, if more and more games come labeled "HARD DRIVE REQUIRED" than that's a shady business practice.It's an interesting question right? If you're MS and a publisher comes to you saying that they want to make a single player game that is absolutely amazing but there's no way they can do it without using the hard drive, what do you do? Tell them to take a hike or change their game?

It's the same problem they're running into with these Japanese RPG makers. MS wants all the video to be at 720p, but that takes up a ton of space. So you either get Final Fantasy or you don't depending on whether you're willing to let them put the video in 'only' DVD quality 480p. It's not even a question, you let them put the damn video in 480p in my opinion, just like you let them put HDD required on the box and drop out the 10% of people who don't have the thing. It's something the publisher is responsible for, and it's a gamble they're going to take.

There won't be many Core systems available at launch, and what MS has failed to emphasize is that the Core is just that, it's a component, it's not a system. The $400 'bundle' is the system, but by calling it a bundle they've confused everybody. You can get just the core, but you won't be able to do everything with it that you would be able to do with the system.

I can't wait to see the fallout from Sony's pricing scheme. If this mess is any indication we'll have people's heads exploding at their keyboards.

[Heretic Machine]

It's an interesting question right? If you're MS and a publisher comes to you saying that they want to make a single player game that is absolutely amazing but there's no way they can do it without using the hard drive, what do you do? Tell them to take a hike or change their game?

It's the same problem they're running into with these Japanese RPG makers. MS wants all the video to be at 720p, but that takes up a ton of space. So you either get Final Fantasy or you don't depending on whether you're willing to let them put the video in 'only' DVD quality 480p. It's not even a question, you let them put the damn video in 480p in my opinion, just like you let them put HDD required on the box and drop out the 10% of people who don't have the thing. It's something the publisher is responsible for, and it's a gamble they're going to take.

There won't be many Core systems available at launch, and what MS has failed to emphasize is that the Core is just that, it's a component, it's not a system. The $400 'bundle' is the system, but by calling it a bundle they've confused everybody. You can get just the core, but you won't be able to do everything with it that you would be able to do with the system.

I can't wait to see the fallout from Sony's pricing scheme. If this mess is any indication we'll have people's heads exploding at their keyboards.

Here is what you don't get. Everything you just said can be boiled down to one sentence: Microsoft is now blatantly lieing to it's consumers. When you lie to me, I stop buying. It's just that simple, and they won't be the first company to find this out.

[Achilles]

Here is what you don't get. Everything you just said can be boiled down to one sentence: Microsoft is now blatantly lieing to it's consumers. When you lie to me, I stop buying. It's just that simple, and they won't be the first company to find this out.It's not though, it's just a complicated issue and people don't understand all of it. Everything I said has been said by Microsoft but people have very selective memories.

It's like when everyone thought that the old Nintendo games would be free on the Revolution. That came from a press conference where they stated that they'd charge for them. People just seem to take away what they want and thanks to the internet the rumor turns into a firmer fact than the truth that was originally there.

There's a lot of information about the 360 out there, some of it conflicts for whatever reason (old info, developer rumors, ideas that got canceled), but MS hasn't lied. Their goal is to get every game to play on the core system. All of their first party games will follow this because that's their goal. However you're never, ever going to tell EA to shove it if they come to you with a HDD only game.

[Heretic Machine]

It's not though, it's just a complicated issue and people don't understand all of it. Everything I said has been said by Microsoft but people have very selective memories.


Well, let's go over what you've said.

The core system isn't going to be widely available, it's just there so they can claim to have a $300 system? That's a lie right there.

It's the same problem they're running into with these Japanese RPG makers. MS wants all the video to be at 720p, but that takes up a ton of space. So you either get Final Fantasy or you don't depending on whether you're willing to let them put the video in 'only' DVD quality 480p. It's not even a question, you let them put the damn video in 480p in my opinion, just like you let them put HDD required on the box and drop out the 10% of people who don't have the thing. It's something the publisher is responsible for, and it's a gamble they're going to take

Microsoft has said several times that they would REQUIRE that developers do the following: Support core systems without hard-drives, support 720p in all games, support custom soundtracks, among other things. If they go back on that, then it is a LIE. And yes, they will be going back on it.

I can't wait to see the fallout from Sony's pricing scheme. If this mess is any indication we'll have people's heads exploding at their keyboards.

Not really, we already expect it to be more expensive than it actually will be. Remember, "PSP's are gonna cost $700!!!" What happend when they came out? $250 for the value pack. That's their marketing strategy, they make you think it's going to cost a fortune and then they undercut the price you have in your head, so even though it'll be too expensive, it'll still seem cheap compared to what you expected.

[Achilles]

Well, let's go over what you've said.
The core system isn't going to be widely available, it's just there so they can claim to have a $300 system? That's a lie right there.Actually I didn't say that it's just there so they can claim there's a $300 system. It's there for people that only need the Core. That's what MS has claimed as well in the interview with J that was on the net a couple weeks ago.

Microsoft has said several times that they would REQUIRE that developers do the following: Support core systems without hard-drives, support 720p in all games, support custom soundtracks, among other things. If they go back on that, then it is a LIE. And yes, they will be going back on it.They're going to try. That's their goal. Again, if EA wants something EA gets it, same for any valued partner of MS. If you don't understand that than yes, they lied to you. But that goes back into people not understanding how things work. They didn't lie to you about their objective, but when plans meet reality things change. I have no idea if what the other guy was saying about single player games requiring the HDD is true. But I can see how it would be.
Not really, we already expect it to be more expensive than it actually will be. Remember, "PSP's are gonna cost $700!!!" What happend when they came out? $250 for the value pack. That's their marketing strategy, they make you think it's going to cost a fortune and then they undercut the price you have in your head, so even though it'll be too expensive, it'll still seem cheap compared to what you expected.They didn't tell you that you'd have to work longer hours to buy a PSP and that it wasn't intended for households, they said that it would be reasonably priced. You want that to be their strategy but it's not. It's the anylists that gave the $700 figure, but they're always wrong anwyay. (by the way if you can find one interview with a sony exec going on about how expensive the PSP will be than I'd be really surprised)

I'd also say that you're not going to buy the 360 at launch anyway, so saying that you're not going to buy it because they lied to you is meaningless.

[Heretic Machine]

I'd also say that you're not going to buy the 360 at launch anyway, so saying that you're not going to buy it because they lied to you is meaningless.

Not when my original intention was to buy nothing but the 360 in the next generation. At least as far as launch goes.

[Achilles]

Not when my original intention was to buy nothing but the 360 in the next generation. At least as far as launch goes.Sorry for bantering in a thread. You're seriously not going to buy a 360 now because you think they lied to you? Why don't you just look at what the system offers in the way of games and decide if you want that?

[Kelegacy]

To TRY to get all games to run on the Core system isnt enough for me. People shouldnt have to worry about whether or not their system can play the games or not. That's a problem that should be reserved for the PC audience. Yes, you could tell me that if I don't want to worry about it then I should get the Premium system. Well, as an informed gamer I would anyway...but what about the millions of other mainstream gamers out there? People are going to be hurt by this if the games require the HDD down the road. Trying isnt enough. They should be rocksolid in their knowledge. The N64 required you to buy the RAM add-on to play certain N64 games, and that was bad enough. Mandatory peripherals are always bad business.

Now, this may not be a problem and we may never need a Hard Drive. Hopefully this is true for the Core buyers out there.

Once again, Kelegacy is all doom and gloom.

[Heretic Machine]

You're seriously not going to buy a 360 now because you think they lied to you?

Yes, why is it you think that this is unreasonable? Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned, but I like to at least have the illussion that the people I buy things from are some-what honest. I don't like being lied to. If I went to a store and the people who worked there lied to me, I wouldn't shop there anymore.

If you are so weak willed that you have to buy this console no matter what Microsoft does to you, then you have my pity.

[B_Money]

Yes, why is it you think that this is unreasonable? Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned, but I like to at least have the illussion that the people I buy things from are some-what honest. I don't like being lied to. If I went to a store and the people who worked there lied to me, I wouldn't shop there anymore.

If you are so weak willed that you have to buy this console no matter what Microsoft does to you, then you have my pity.

In that case, I hope the Amish have a good next-gen console coming out, cause I don't see how you can buy from anybody else.

[Heretic Machine]

In that case, I hope the Amish have a good next-gen console coming out, cause I don't see how you can buy from anybody else.

Why's that? So far Nintendo hasn't really lied this generation. I don't expect that they'll do too much next generation either. So far, the Revolution is looking good. Don't get me wrong, it's very possible that they will fuck up and I'll be nothing but a PC gamer from now on... but at the moment, they look to be my best bet for console gaming in the next generation.

[Achilles]

To TRY to get all games to run on the Core system isnt enough for me. People shouldnt have to worry about whether or not their system can play the games or not.Well let's take this from your perspective as a gamer for a minute. If there was a game that needed a hard drive to do something really cool, would you want that game not to exist just because Billy Bob who plays only Madden couldn't play it too? Because in my opinion Billy's already got Madden and he probably doesn't want to play the game I'm interested in, so it seems like a crappy reason for that game not to exist.If you are so weak willed that you have to buy this console no matter what Microsoft does to you, then you have my pity.Weak willed? I don't care what MS says, or Honda, or any other company I buy things from, I just care how it works and in the 360's case what games are made for it and what features it'll offer. From a debate standpoint it's fun to talk about but I'd never base my purchase descision on whether the corporate execs were able to create exactly what they originally told me they were trying to.

If I had that policy I'd buy very few games since almost every game talks about features while it's being made that end up getting cut. Do you have living breathing worlds with people who react in a realistic way in GTA? Nope, guess anyone who bought that game was a chump. Who cares if it's fun, they lied, so screw em.

[B_Money]

Why's that? So far Nintendo hasn't really lied this generation. I don't expect that they'll do too much next generation either. So far, the Revolution is looking good. Don't get me wrong, it's very possible that they will fuck up and I'll be nothing but a PC gamer from now on... but at the moment, they look to be my best bet for console gaming in the next generation.

My mistake, I assumed you wouldn't buy from Nintendo because of the lies they told us in previous generations. Nintendo has been pretty honest so far in regards with the Revolution, but they haven't told us much of anything about it.

[Heretic Machine]

My mistake, I assumed you wouldn't buy from Nintendo because of the lies they told us in previous generations. Nintendo has been pretty honest so far in regards with the Revolution, but they haven't told us much of anything about it.


I was pretty pissed off at Nintendo because of the N64 bullshit... So I waited like two years to buy a Gamecube. The only console I bought at launch last generation was the XBOX, and I never regretted it. It was great, and still is great. But Microsoft is throwing what made it's fanbase right out the door with the 360.

[B_Money]

I was pretty pissed off at Nintendo because of the N64 bullshit... So I waited like two years to buy a Gamecube. The only console I bought at launch last generation was the XBOX, and I never regretted it. It was great, and still is great. But Microsoft is throwing what made it's fanbase right out the door with the 360.

I can understand why you'd feel this way. Too me it seems a little naive and simplsitic, but I won't begrudge your descisions. I'm confident the Revolution will be enough to make you happy, assuming you actually get to buy one.

[critch]

It's the anylists that gave the $700 figure, but they're always wrong anwyay.

Weren't the analysts screaming up and down about how the 360 was going to come out in two versions, hd and hd-less, weeks before Microsoft announced it? Weren't we all saying how they were always wrong, and Microsoft wouldn't lie to us?

I like a HD in a console just because I don't like buying extra things that I NEED for the console to work right that aren't included with the console. Sony invented this memory card shit and now everyone is doing it, but with a HD I don't need to buy one. All other uses I'm not sure I really care about, as I still think there should be a fine line between console gaming and pc gaming.

Regardless, I'm getting a Premium Pack...Because I won one in the every 10 minutes contest. WOOWOOOWOOOWOOWOOOOWOOOO

[Kelegacy]

Weren't the analysts screaming up and down about how the 360 was going to come out in two versions, hd and hd-less, weeks before Microsoft announced it? Weren't we all saying how they were always wrong, and Microsoft wouldn't lie to us?

I like a HD in a console just because I don't like buying extra things that I NEED for the console to work right that aren't included with the console. Sony invented this memory card shit and now everyone is doing it, but with a HD I don't need to buy one. All other uses I'm not sure I really care about, as I still think there should be a fine line between console gaming and pc gaming.

Regardless, I'm getting a Premium Pack...Because I won one in the every 10 minutes contest. WOOWOOOWOOOWOOWOOOOWOOOO

Must...kill...critch...must...take...three...sixty ...

[Heretic Machine]

If I could find some Mountain Dew labeled with that contest I'd be all over that... unfortunetly, I've only seen generic bottles and such.

[Murmillo]

I think this whole "I think maybe sort of kinda but not to sure if I've been lied too or not, so I just won't buy it" thing is getting out of control and reeks of bullshit. How can you buy any thing with that mentality?

I don't see where yet Microsoft has "blatantly in your face" lied yet. There has been a lot of confusion in the B.C and the MMO/harddrive issue, but it hasn't happened YET where Microsoft has said single player games won't require a harddrive, and then 6 months later say "oh wait, our bad, Halo3 needs a harddrive - Fuck you cheap ass core system bastards". Call me a fanboy or what ever if you wish, but I don't think you can go standing up on the rocks preaching this as the truth just because you think it might happen because there is a chance it could happen.

So far, we have gotten 90% of our news from analysts, fanboys and angry developers like Gabe, and when Microsoft tells us the other 10% which is different then what we want to believe is the truth, Microsoft becomes the liar - odd how that works. Must...Throw...Stones...No.Wait...Bigger...ROCKS!. ...NRRRRUUURFGGGFFFF!!!!

I'd understand your feelings if you were so Joe smuck wanting to buy thier kid a new console (as this is all they have been talking about) but when you get to the store, your clueless if you need a harddrive or not, a wireless controller or not, full happy bundle or core system and what extras you need or don't need. But your not, you're a long time and well informed user of EvAv and I'm sure a member of a few other boards, so this clueless I think maybe sort of kinda but not to sure if I've been lied too or not bullshit doesn't fly around here.

[HarverdGrad]

I'm waiting and see with the next gen consoles.
I'm so sick of buying stuff based upon a lot of hype. That's what this industry has become.

It comes down to:
1) How many games come out for said console.
2) Fun factor & quality of the games.

Games are coming out so fast & half assed now, that I'm losing my love for the genre.

[Chris_D]

Regardless, I'm getting a Premium Pack...Because I won one in the every 10 minutes contest. WOOWOOOWOOOWOOWOOOOWOOOO

NICE! So with the $400 the pack would have cost you, thats like 7 launch games you can grab. Well at least you could try and justify it like that :).

[Achilles]

Weren't the analysts screaming up and down about how the 360 was going to come out in two versions, hd and hd-less, weeks before Microsoft announced it? Weren't we all saying how they were always wrong, and Microsoft wouldn't lie to us?

Regardless, I'm getting a Premium Pack...Because I won one in the every 10 minutes contest. WOOWOOOWOOOWOOWOOOOWOOOOWell congratulations on winning a 360. Microsoft never said every Xbox 360 would include a hard drive out of the box, in fact they kept calling it the ‘optional’ or ‘removable’ HDD whenever they spoke of it. People just thought they did because they wanted it to, it's a lot like the free Nintendo games thing. There's a reason it's detachable. I challenge you to find an interview with a Microsoft exec saying that every system will have a hard drive included. In fact in an interview in May before E3 they described the hard drive this way: “He explained the upgradeable and removable 20-GB hard-drive, which will come bundled as a peripheral with the console” Now unless you don’t know what a peripheral and a bundle are, that’s pretty clear.

[MajSheppard]

I have my stratagy figured out. I am not buying a 360 or any next gen period. At least for a while. In all honesty, is anything for these three consoles so mind blowing great that I can not wait until the prices become reasonable? With next gen and gas prices so high who can afford to have other luxury items, like food.

[Morratut]

I'm with Achilles here. MS didn't say its hard disk is going to be in every Xbox. The hard drive is removable and can be put in a friends Xbox etc so of course most games need to work without it.

I'm buying the Premium Xbox360 and it's going to be great. The hard drive is going to be useful for me due to music,downloadable content,don't have to worry about saves...ever.

Plus if you get the premium you get the special chrome details :D

So even if your friend does get a core system and upgrades to a hard drive later you will always be able to tell tut tut :p

Oh and Majshepard in the UK £279 for all that stuff you get in the UK is very reasonable.It's a absolute bargain to be honest.

[d0g_p00p]

It's funny. Even with the rampart zealot for anything Microsoft, console wise. It's now OK to purchase a Xbox360 without a HDD. It's going to be so awesome to try and play Halo 2/360 and getting a system error because I don't have the HDD edition. MS is trying and I'll give them that.

I think J. whatever the **uck his name is, needs to stop having his staff read SnowCrash and read Sony's docs on backwards compatibility..

Don't get me twisted, I'll have a Xbox360 on launch day. Let's just hope I will not Ebay it 6 months later like the original Xbox.

[sol740]

Here is what you don't get. Everything you just said can be boiled down to one sentence: Microsoft is now blatantly lieing to it's consumers. When you lie to me, I stop buying. It's just that simple, and they won't be the first company to find this out.

Perigon ... Perigon, when I read one your many posts it is rare that I am totally in disagreement with you. However this last statement just makes me feel as if you are just being Mr. Jaded Gamer now. Too cool for school. That sucks because a lot of times we agree. However trying to weed through the lies of corporate America, or Japan if you wanna talk about Nintendo, seems pointless. Yes the Core option is crap, but if someone can now afford an 360 when they couldn't before, who cares. As far as the argument that they'll need a game and a memory card, well yes they wouldn't need the card if they buy premium, but they'll still need a game so add 60 bucks whichever way you go. Nintendo, out of the 3 corporations we are speaking of, is probably the least guilty, though guilty none the less, in this generation or last it doesn't matter if you just going by principle. As far as PC gaming goes, theres less hyperbole because theres one singular platform. Though Nvidia and ATI pump up their "specs" and lie all the time. Work with developers to make sure certain games work best on certain cards and not only that, but the cards themselves for numero uno perfomance cost more than each of the next gen consoles.(speculation, though I don't think too many people would argue that I am wrong here) Add the cost of the PC itself and user-end costs i.e software are insane. I know, I know. Computers do more than consoles. However I surf the net and do all other nessesary PC functions from the comfort of a middle of the way $600 dollar PC. My media functions will soon all be handled by my Xbox after I mod it when the 360 comes out. Pick what you want based off the games. Not off of some illusion of corporate integrity because it doesn't exist.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I think this whole "I think maybe sort of kinda but not to sure if I've been lied too or not, so I just won't buy it" thing is getting out of control and reeks of bullshit. How can you buy any thing with that mentality?

I don't see where yet Microsoft has "blatantly in your face" lied yet. There has been a lot of confusion in the B.C and the MMO/harddrive issue, but it hasn't happened YET where Microsoft has said single player games won't require a harddrive, and then 6 months later say "oh wait, our bad, Halo3 needs a harddrive - Fuck you cheap ass core system bastards".


Damn it Murm, why do you even post?? I know you love your MS/Allard teabag in the morning, but damn...
J Allard (Expert):
Q: Why do they have the core package? Why doesn't microsoft just release the package with the Harddrive so developers will be able to fully utilize it?
A: independent of the configurations we have at launch it was imparative that we work with developers now to abstract the storage system because (1) the drive is removable and we want people to play even if the drive is not present (2) another possibility is that 5 years from now that you want more storage on the box or on the network and be able to take advantage of that. by abstracting storage in the system we are making sure that all xbox 360 games will work on all configurations moving forward and early customers will be able to take advantage of future scenarios like bigger drives and network storage.

This sure sounds like Allard says that all games would work on all configurations. So, I don't hear a goddamn word about MMO's needing a HD. If they do, then it should have been stated CLEARLY by MS if they are going to split the console between haves and have nots.
Games: Xbox 360 redefines what games look like, sound like, feel like, and play like to engage you like never before. With Xbox 360, epic worlds are alive with detail, from thunderous skies rumbling over a mountain range to tiny blades of grass rustling together in the breeze. Vibrant characters display depth of emotion to evoke more dramatic responses, immersing you in the experience like never before. You’ll see all Xbox 360 titles at 720p and 1080i resolution in 16:9 widescreen, with anti-aliasing for smooth, movie-like graphics and multi-channel surround sound.
It doesn't say 90%, it doesn't say 95%, it says all. Nitpicking, hell yeah. But this would be a blatant lie if they knew that FFXI wasn't going to be 720P.
Xbox Live: New Levels of Service Get Everyone in the Game
Connect Xbox 360 to a broadband connection and get instant access to Xbox Live Silver, available for no monthly service charge with an Xbox 360 system. Players can express their digital identity through their Gamer Profile; connect with friends anytime, anywhere through Xbox Live voice chat; send and receive text and voice message; and access Xbox Live Marketplace to download demos and trailers along with new game levels, maps, weapons, vehicles, skins, classic arcade and card and board games, community-created content, and more to the detachable Xbox 360 hard drive — all right out of the box at no extra cost
...well, besides the extra cost of that hard drive. Or at the very least, the memory card

Noerresundby, Denmark – May 25, 2005 – RTX Telecom, a leading independent supplier of advanced wireless communication solutions, today announced that it has been chosen by Microsoft as a development partner for the wireless interface to the game pad for Xbox 360TM video game system from Microsoft. Microsoft will be the first console manufacturer to ship wireless game pads as standard with its hardware.

This was what RTX reports it was told by MS. Now, why would you think that people may feel they are being lied to....

Murm, before you slam Perigon or Kelegacy for statements they have made, look to find out what MS said first. Everyone ripped Sony a new for their numerous lies (myself included) but just because MS lies, don't put frosting on it and call it a chocolate cake.

I also defy you to find a statement from MS that says the MMO's will require a HD. Find it please!! You have said that it is obvious...but it may not be to the noob gamer or the casual gamer MS cares so much about.
You and I believe that games like the upcoming Huxley, Marvel MMO and others will need the HD. But has MS bothered clarifying this for us yet? Or even that it will be an additional cost from Xbox Live? Noob/Casual Gamers are entitled to this info before they hunker down $300+

[Achilles]

Murm, before you slam Perigon or Kelegacy for statements they have made, look to find out what MS said first. Everyone ripped Sony a new for their numerous lies (myself included) but just because MS lies, don't put frosting on it and call it a chocolate cake.

I also defy you to find a statement from MS that says the MMO's will require a HD. Find it please!! You have said that it is obvious...but it may not be to the noob gamer or the casual gamer MS cares so much about.
You and I believe that games like the upcoming Huxley, Marvel MMO and others will need the HD. But has MS bothered clarifying this for us yet? Or even that it will be an additional cost from Xbox Live? Noob/Casual Gamers are entitled to this info before they hunker down $300+Casual gamers know nothing about what J. said, what goes on at E3 or whatever else. All they know is the reality of what they need to run the game when they decide to buy it. They won’t feel betrayed because they don’t obsess over this stuff in the same way that the hardcore community does, it’ll just be a fact to them when they need to buy the HDD to run FFXI if that’s the case.

For the Xbox Live, they’ve stated that you’ll be able to play a MMORPG through the free silver plan since you already have to pay for the MMORPG’s monthly fee. Any game that has a monthly fee you can play without paying the Live Gold service fee.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

For the Xbox Live, they’ve stated that you’ll be able to play a MMORPG through the free silver plan since you already have to pay for the MMORPG’s monthly fee. Any game that has a monthly fee you can play without paying the Live Gold service fee.
Where have they stated this?

[Achilles]

Where have they stated this?Right here on their Live spec sheet on the official 360 website (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/onlinespecs.htm): It says under the Silver (free) package "Access massively multiplayer online games (additional fees may apply)"

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I stand corrected. Thank you on that.
I ultimately prefer it when someone can point to a link or post a quote that tells me what an ass I am. This way I know they aren't filling me with opinion and thier own wishful thinking.

[Heretic Machine]

Casual gamers know nothing about what J. said, what goes on at E3 or whatever else. All they know is the reality of what they need to run the game when they decide to buy it. They won’t feel betrayed because they don’t obsess over this stuff in the same way that the hardcore community does, it’ll just be a fact to them when they need to buy the HDD to run FFXI if that’s the case.


So? How does this negate the fact that they were in all likely hood, lieing? Just because you only lie to the "hardcore community" doesn't make it any better.

[Ninja 20XX]

If you're not going to support a company because they 'lied' to you, there's few companies that don't.

Go read some press releases that any publisher puts out to support the release of their game and you won't hear anything but language specifically aimed at making you think the game can not only walk on water, but will stop and turn it into wine. Most games get a number of pre-release previews written about them, yet only the 'good' ones get quoted on the game packaging. You never see "Graphics so ugly I took a blunt pencil to my eyes! - IGN.com" highlighted to draw your attention.

Sony made a lot of promises about the PS2 that were either exaggerated or didn't quite hit the mark and that hasn't stopped it from being a juggernaut at retail - because casual gamers don't give a damn about specs, polygon counts, DVD drive speeds: it's the pricing and the overall selection of games. The only people who give a damn about those pre-release 'lies' are people who are trying to knock the PS2.

A lot of people seem to be willing to speak up on behalf of the casual gamers when they have no idea what the mindset of a casual gamer is. Casual gamers don't lose sleep over not having games, they enjoy what they can get . . . and the letters G-T-A mean a lot more to them than S-K-U.

Personally, I'd rather MS just come right out and say it instead of trying to beat around the bush: hardcore gamers, you are not the center of the retail universe, we can't spring for a HDD in every 360 unit like we did with the Xbox. We made a big mistake there, it didn't become a standard, and now we've got a mess with backwards compatibility, a feature that IS more important to more gamers than a HDD is, so we're going to try to make lemonade out of some of these lemons. You can get a HDD on day one, if you want one, but it's going to be extra. Sorry we couldn't 'hook you up' like we did last time, but we have profit margins we have to achieve, and this is the best we can do.

It seems a little weird that the Xbox 360 is getting worse pre-release press after four years of establishing the Xbox brand than the original Xbox did when it was "Oh, Micro$oft is making a game console, there goes the neighborhood".

This isn't about credibility - it's about tightwads not wanting to pony up their share for the damn HDD. I'd wager most Xbox owners spent exactly $0 on memory units so far - and you're not going to find any PS2 or Gamecube owners who can say that. If you're going to be that anal about not being able to get rid of your Xbox . . . well, you need to decide what's more important, playing 360 games or some space in your entertainment center and a few less wires.

Outside of the HDD, there's nothing about the 360 that's breaking what they've established for the Xbox brand so far - and conversely, at launch, if you haven't been thrilled with the Xbox so far, there's really not too much at this point that's going to make the 360 any different for you. Maybe that'll happen down the road, maybe not.

I think some people are just more pissed that they're spending more than what they wanted to to keep up their status as the hardcore 3l33t that has to have every new thing as soon as it hits store shelves than they are in getting a new game console and enjoying it for what it is. If you're worried that the PS3 or Revolution might be 'better', then wait it out - it's in your best interest, really, you'll save money in the long run if you do change your mind about the 360.

You're just going to have to deal with the fact that these games might be pretty cool and you're not going to be able to play them, but that's your pick . . . and if you're not convinced you really want a 360 come launch, leave the $400 in your wallet and the console on the shelf for someone who's not buying it just so they can bitch about it.

[Murmillo]

I also defy you to find a statement from MS that says the MMO's will require a HD. Find it please!! You have said that it is obvious...but it may not be to the noob gamer or the casual gamer MS cares so much about.

Well, I found it, but this is were it gets iffy.

I found where I read it, but then realized after I read it, not everybody subscribes to Game Informer (http://www.gameinformer.com/default.htm). So here it is, Will Elder Scrolls IV Work On Xbox 360 Without A Hard Drive? (http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/exeres/1AB3EC02-5021-4D70-B466-C11538918174.htm)

It doesn't say who said it, so I fired off an email.
In your news post, 'Will Elders Scrolls IV work on ..." posted 8/17/2005 6:06PM, you made the remarks; "Game Informer has also heard rumblings that Microsoft mandated all Xbox 360 games be playable without hard drive assistance (MMOs are excused from this requirement)." And I was wondering where you got the 'MMOs are excused' detail from? Who said it, where, when.

I've been trying the last hour to google it, but I am comming up empty as G.I is the only place that seems to "detail" this. You are my last resource.

The reply, not much to my suprise, was:

As a major gaming magazine and website, Game Informer has access to all sorts of industry insiders. Sometimes they will only reveal choice info if we keep their name out of the stories. This is one of those times.

Thanks

Ok look at the date, 8/17. 4 days before J.Allards big "speech" (http://www.filerush.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=11332#11332&sid=0ac794163d5ca566af02a460955ad68f) over at Major Nelson which this topic was put into the light and questioned. Lying or just not properly informing on the games/hard-drive issue.

So.. I'm not all that right, and you really weren't all that wrong. You might have a slight edge over me getting that I can't nail down somebody from MS saying it, but I still have that it has been writen about, somewhere - before.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Well, I think that would have answered your own question. If you have been searching for this statement and can't find anything from Microsoft, how fair do you think that is to the consumer who doesn't know?
I hope MS puts a warning label on their packaging to let people know that if they buy the HD-less version, they may not be able to play certain games. I'd also like there to be an amendment to Allard's speech and some type of info campaign to let people know that the 'core' system really is a different version of the 360. People won't be able to play games without the HD.

I'll give you credit for the research Padawan, but it raises more questions than it provides answers. Plus, no one from MS has signed off on the statement. Might I suggest shooting an e-mail over to MajorNelson for clarification...that is generally a good place to get info (if slightly biased).

[Xerxes]

OMG MS lied about all games not needing hard drives; Yeah and Sony showed you prerendered videos and told you it was all in game.

Getting a hard drive is common sense. You can't play a disc game without a storage device. Low and behold, you get way more storage and capabilty with a hard drive and a memory card at half the cost and even less the saving space. We keep arguing "that blah blah blah, i hate two skus, MMORPGs are going to need a hard drive, why did MS betray us, they are only wanting to say they came out for $299, cheap bastards, didn't they learn anything from Sony." We only know of one game that NEEDS a hard drive and thats Final Fantasy 11(?). MS has added a simple method(so they say) for developers to enable caching if a hard drive is detected. Oblivion does NEED a hard drive, so if they can add the caching ability anybody should be able to do it. Developers are more happy with the more RAM than they are losing hard drives. NOT all games used hard drive last time for anything but saving and soundtracks. I don't think they are going to cut that out just cause some ass hats are stuck with "core" systems.

Anybody on EvAv buying the "core" xbox 360 should be excommunicated.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

OMG MS lied about all games not needing hard drives; Yeah and Sony showed you prerendered videos and told you it was all in game.

Getting a hard drive is common sense. You can't play a disc game without a storage device. Low and behold, you get way more storage and capabilty with a hard drive and a memory card at half the cost and even less the saving space. We keep arguing "that blah blah blah, i hate two skus, MMORPGs are going to need a hard drive, why did MS betray us, they are only wanting to say they came out for $299, cheap bastards, didn't they learn anything from Sony." We only know of one game that NEEDS a hard drive and thats Final Fantasy 11(?). MS has added a simple method(so they say) for developers to enable caching if a hard drive is detected. Oblivion does NEED a hard drive, so if they can add the caching ability anybody should be able to do it. Developers are more happy with the more RAM than they are losing hard drives. NOT all games used hard drive last time for anything but saving and soundtracks. I don't think they are going to cut that out just cause some ass hats are stuck with "core" systems.

Anybody on EvAv buying the "core" xbox 360 should be excommunicated.
1) Why are you bringing up Sony? Is that the only way you can defend Microsoft's smoke and mirror campaign? Sony lied, so MS can lie to? That is why I hate Sony in general, they have fed the public many lies. That is why I liked MS, the Xbox was a straightforward honest platform (even if they overhyped alkl of their too few 'Xbox Only' titles.)
2) Oblivion does NOT need a HD...it just runs and performs better if you have one.
3) One of the reasons a lot of games didn't fully utilize the HD is due to the fact that the majority of Xbox games were ports from the PS2. They didn't utilize the cache because the original game didn't have access to one. Do you think it is going to be the same this time around.
4) What kind of statement was "Getting a hard drive is common sense. You can't play a disc game without a storage device."??Because if that was the case, have you heard of the PS1 or PS2?? The HD is an enhancement to gameplay and probably will be mandatory if you buy any MMOs. When you take away the HD, the Xbox1 would have been no better than a Gamecube...even worse in some ways. The HD played a large part of Xbox Live, custom soundtracks, game saves...It allowed games like Wrestlemania XXI to get patched since the game came out buggy..
5) Very true, devs are happy about the RAM. But they would have been more happy to have one platform to develop for w/standard equipment on all of them. Some have said as much.

I am not debating their choice in going HD-less. I understand it and don't like it. It may have a negative impact on the games that I buy (and I'm getting the HD+ version). What I want MS to do is make sure they let everyone know the consequences of not getting the HD. That way, there won't be a huge backlash against them later that Sony can use in their advertising campaigns.

[Achilles]

I'd also like there to be an amendment to Allard's speech and some type of info campaign to let people know that the 'core' system really is a different version of the 360. People won't be able to play games without the HD.Can you point to a game that won't work without the HDD? Because at this point it seems to be only speculation that everyone's getting upset about.

Now I can’t see how you’d be able to do something with the size of updates that a game like WoW would have on only a memory card, but hey, maybe they can.

[Rangoth]

Final Fantasy 11 :)

[Achilles]

Final Fantasy 11 :)Yep, you're right, just looked it up. So we've got one game. I don't think that's really worth putting a warning lable or having J run an ad campaign correcting his speech. That's kind of extreme there.

I'm sure there will be a sticker on FFXI's box, and really that should be enough. People who buy a Core system won't have heard J's speech, they'll just know what they see on the 360's box, and on the FFXI box. For hardcore gamers, well they're never going to buy a core system.

[Rangoth]

It may only be one but it only took one tiny tape recorder to bring down Nixon ;)

One is enough to show the flaw in anyones armour. Microsoft promises one thing, we already see something else. You either need it or you don't. Not both.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Yep, you're right, just looked it up. So we've got one game. I don't think that's really worth putting a warning lable or having J run an ad campaign correcting his speech. That's kind of extreme there.

I'm sure there will be a sticker on FFXI's box, and really that should be enough. People who buy a Core system won't have heard J's speech, they'll just know what they see on the 360's box, and on the FFXI box. For hardcore gamers, well they're never going to buy a core system.
Yup, one.
But how many of the MMOs that come out do you think will run without a HD? I want MS to put to rest this question once and for all. Will we need a HD to play MMOs?
Huxley, APB, Marvel Online...these seem like the type of games you will need a HD for. Putting a sticker on a game would help, but it wouldn't be an 'upfront statement'. You wouldn't know that you needed a HD to buy a game, until you had the game in your hand. If MS says every game will work with the HD, but one already doesn't, then that is false info. We also look a little further down the line and it appears more than one may require the HD. However, you are right in the fact that 'down the road' is speculation...but we do have one here.

An amendment to his speech and a warning on the Xbox exterior is all I'm asking for. If they even wrote 'some games require the HD to work', I'd be happy. But don't pull a Sony and not inform/misinform the customer.

[Rangoth]

I would say all MMO's on the 360 will require the HD. There will be some unhappy people out there who buy the core system down the line wanting to play some of the games you listed then find out 'WTF, I need more stuff? Forget this!' then return everything and buy a PS3/Revolution/Give up on console gaming totally. Your right, J. needs to just come out and say MS put its foot in its mouth a bit, failed to fully think things through and some games will need a HD and it will say so on the box.

[Achilles]

I wonder what he’d say if you asked him specifically about MMORPGs. And nobody even asked him if all games would work without the HDD, that was just part of an answer to a different question involving configurations. Heck maybe he meant that every configuration could be made to play every game. You certainly can add a hard drive to the Core system and play FFXI.

The thing about the 720p that he said is correct. Everything will be upscaled to 720p at worst.

A warning on the box, even if it was huge wouldn't get to some people. There's always going to be confused consumers. If they have a label on FFXI or other MMORPGs will that be good enough? I would assume that's what they're going to do. Forget this!' then return everything and buy a PS3/Revolution/Give up on console gaming totally.And play their MMORPG on those two systems without a HDD? They’d either give up, which is unlikely for someone intending to play a MMORPG and pay a monthly fee for it, or they’ll buy the HDD instead of the memory card.

[Xerxes]

Twigs i can't win. You can nitpick at it longer cause it erks you for some reason. If developers want to add caching to their games they can. I pointed out Sony cause FMVs and saying these are the games you can play and ooops I forgot FFXI and other MMORPGS may/will need them as well.

When I said you can't play games with a storage device on disc systems, let me clarify. I meant playing and progressing and actually PLAYING the game. Not just "I can play this." For instance, with no storage device I would just play Ninja Gaiden as far as I can and quit. And start from scratch the next day, so on and so on. With no storage device there is no point of having save spots. I'm not getting anywhere fast without the ability to save. Cartridges gives you that media but then those died with N64 as far as home consoles are concerned.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I wonder what he’d say if you asked him specifically about MMORPGs. And nobody even asked him if all games would work without the HDD, that was just part of an answer to a different question involving configurations. Heck maybe he meant that every configuration could be made to play every game. You certainly can add a hard drive to the Core system and play FFXI.

The thing about the 720p that he said is correct. Everything will be upscaled to 720p at worst.

A warning on the box, even if it was huge wouldn't get to some people. There's always going to be confused consumers. If they have a label on FFXI or other MMORPGs will that be good enough? I would assume that's what they're going to do.And play their MMORPG on those two systems without a HDD? They’d either give up, which is unlikely for someone intending to play a MMORPG and pay a monthly fee for it, or they’ll buy the HDD instead of the memory card.
Final Fantasy XI seems to be the exception to the 720p argument as well. It was already announced it would play in 480p. If you throw out FFXI, then he'd be ok on that one. We will see about the others later on.

[Zeal]

Final Fantasy XI seems to be the exception to the 720p argument as well. It was already announced it would play in 480p. If you throw out FFXI, then he'd be ok on that one. We will see about the others later on.

If the 360 version is running at only 480p, I see absolutely no reason to get it. I would kill for WoW 720p on 360, though.

[Chris_D]

If that's the case it would be the biggest joke of a port ever. Fair enough not to upgrade the textures, or models significantly (although I would expect expansions / add ons down the track that would be pc/360 only). But surely if we are effectively porting the pc version, then we would be able to to 720p resolution as well. Crazy. Anyway, I'll wait to see the actual details when they come out.

[Murmillo]

Shush Twigs..

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/644/644005p1.html

FFXI WILL HAVE 720p support.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Shush Twigs..
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/644/644005p1.html
FFXI WILL HAVE 720p support.
Well, he did say that 480p was the standard and that they do have it up and running at 720p now. I quoted what was said by Squenix themselves...I hope they give up the beefier version! However, the graphics look a little dated...I hope they really pump them up.

Good point Murm, I tip my hat.