Gabe Newell Calls PS3 'The Next Sega Saturn' [Archive]

bean19

09-04-2005, 01:12 PM

Really good interview. I urge everyone to follow the link.

Oddmaker - thanks for the link. I wish you would have covered the other points that he makes.

Btw, he also goes after the X36 and the Revolution. Bascially his argument is that the console makers are not making it easier for developers to create great games. He would like the focus to be more on features for developers to interact with their customers than to be on throwing a ton of pixels on screen.

As someone studying to become a game designer, the idea of multi-threaded code creating errors that do not have any type of debug process scares the hell out of me. I'm still very much at the stage where I learn from fucking up.

Also, when he makes the comparison to the Sega Saturn, he is talking about how the Saturn did poorly due to it's complicated hardware structure. Mr. Newell basically states that Sony is counting on having a high marketshare so that developers do not make many cross platform titles and only develop for them (the complexity of converting a multi-threaded game into one for other platforms might not be cost effective).

I guess we'll see what happens. . . I'd prefer if they went the route of having the best system and thus dominating cross platform sales that way.

Tricky Thumb

09-04-2005, 01:13 PM

Yeah because Gabe Newell has been right about so many things in the past, I mean he's like a fucking clairvoyant!

I really don't think the person responsible for Steam is the best informant of console gaming.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 01:19 PM

Best reason not to buy a PS3: It's made by Sony, so in a year you will have to buy a new one.

Draft

09-04-2005, 01:20 PM

He makes an interesting point about Sony developing a complicated architecture as a method to eliminate competition. That kind of thing only works when you already have marketshare, so that's perfect for Sony.

Kefkataran

09-04-2005, 01:29 PM

Yeah because Gabe Newell has been right about so many things in the past, I mean he's like a fucking clairvoyant!

Uh, so... he's been wrong about a lot before?

I really don't think the person responsible for Steam is the best informant of console gaming.

Steam's gotten pretty smooth lately. But whatevs. To each his own.

Best reason not to buy a PS3: It's made by Sony, so in a year you will have to buy a new one.

Two to two point five years in my experience. :)

Varsity

09-04-2005, 01:31 PM

This is now the fourth news post on the same interview...
I really don't think the person responsible for Steam is the best informant of console gaming.It's not about console gaming, it's about console development.

<pimp>My take (http://varsity_uk.blogspot.com/2005/09/steam-vs-world-of-warcraft.html)</pimp>

Tricky Thumb

09-04-2005, 01:32 PM

Uh, so... he's been wrong about a lot before?
Steam's gotten pretty smooth lately. But whatevs. To each his own.

He's been wrong about certain things I don't think I need to point out here, yeah.

I own a Steam account and if by 'smooth' you mean it's working, I'll give you that. What I'm talking about is Gabe Newell is pretty much in dislike of consoles as of late, so when he goes about saying how this or that console is bad because of reason A or B I really don't find the urge to give his comments weight.

Not that I hate Steam, but I just don't think he should be making such lofty comments on something like that.

Kelegacy

09-04-2005, 01:38 PM

Best reason not to buy a PS3: It's made by Sony, so in a year you will have to buy a new one.

I had one die on me, or at least, start giving occasional DREs. However, it was a used system and I was duped hardcore, it started shitting to bed in 6 months.

I bought a free new one by conning Wal-Mart (i wont describe how, youngsters) and it has been pristine. that was in mid-2003. No problems whatsoever and I play it all the time.

I had a PS1 at launch and it lasted until after the PS2 came out. I like my consoles to last forever (like my SNES/NES) but that's still a pretty good lifespan. Fuck, Xboxes have had as much time to go faulty...their 4 year anniversary is late this fall, and MS is releasing a new system around that day.

Curious question: is the Xbox the shortest lived console before a "sequel" version arrives? 4 years is not a long time at all. The PS2 is an ancient in comparison. No wonder the thing looks dated: it has given joy for nigh on 7 years.

Varsity

09-04-2005, 01:38 PM

What I'm talking about is Gabe Newell is pretty much in dislike of consoles as of late, so when he goes about saying how this or that console is bad because of reason A or B I really don't find the urge to give his comments weight.Heh, let's put that a different way: "He doesn't like consoles so wheh he goes around saying so I don't give his comments weight". ;)

It's not like he's saying they are bad, just that they don't solve any of the problems he is interested in and Steam does.

bobbler

09-04-2005, 01:40 PM

Also, when he makes the comparison to the Sega Saturn, he is talking about how the Saturn did poorly due to it's complicated hardware structure. Mr. Newell basically states that Sony is counting on having a high marketshare so that developers do not make many cross platform titles and only develop for them (the complexity of converting a multi-threaded game into one for other platforms might not be cost effective).

I guess we'll see what happens. . . I'd prefer if they went the route of having the best system and thus dominating cross platform sales that way.

If you listen to the interview that isn't really what he's saying, with that specific saturn comment -- hes talking about how the Saturn was made complex so it could handle what they thought was the biggest "problem" -- creating the ultimate sprite based game. Sony (with the PS1, PS2, and now arguably PS3) came around and changed it saying it was creating a 3d game -- Gabe is saying neither of those are the actual problem at all. It is interacting with the customers and all that jazz. Which is arguably not the problem either, but that is the way he sees it (steam is his baby, so of course hes going to be touting it as the problem solver).

Everyone knows there are going to be difficulties with next generation work -- but that is how it goes, programmers are going to have to shift their view a bit, as happens every time they work on a new set of hardware (notice it's almost exclusively PC programmers saying there is a problem?). This isn't really a problem if you've had a decent background in assembly (or even a solid understanding of the hardware you're programming for instead of just an understanding of the compiler you're working with) -- now I'm not saying multithreaded things are going to be easy, but understanding the hardware of an SPE or PPE is going to make coding for them a lot easier (and understanding what every function does and how it goes about it). Multithreaded programming is just a problem the entire industry is going to have to face, whether we like it or not. Consoles have always been a bit more hardware centric than they are compiler centric (where you get to play in the registers rather than tossing code a compiler and then thinking your responsibilities end there). Assembly or(and) an understanding of the hardware is very important on a closed system, that is the advantage of it -- Gabe is sort of flapping his wings for no good reason. I think this is a major problem with how programming is taught today -- they don't teach you how what you type on the screen maps to what is happening on the cpu, which is very important if you want to get the most out of the system. If you don't truly know what is happening on the hardware, then how can you know what is going to cause the system to grind to a hault? (this seems to be a problem with some of Gabe's younger coders also). Knowing the system (and reading the documentation on the system -- every cpu has massive documentation) should be a requirement, but sadly in most places you can get a degree in programming and not really know what goes on outside of what the compiler will scream about and what will work.

Even on the PC you're going to, if you want good performance, have to deal on a pretty low level (fuck C# and any fisher price langauge like that). He's complaining to complain, because he wanted life to get easier over time, not harder -- which is not a good way of thinking, because if that was the case over time he'd be out of a job because any fool could do what he did. I could go on and on about why his complaints are without much merit in the way he poses them, but I'll stop here.

Blue

09-04-2005, 01:40 PM

Best reason not to buy a PS3: It's made by Sony, so in a year you will have to buy a new one.

My PS2 is the same one I got on the day the system launched. My Xbox, on the other hand, has been purchased three different times. So yeah, good blanket you got there.

Odwalla

09-04-2005, 01:46 PM

Identical is not spelled like testicle.

Tricky Thumb

09-04-2005, 01:47 PM

Heh, let's put that a different way: "He doesn't like consoles so wheh he goes around saying so I don't give his comments weight". ;)

It's not like he's saying they are bad, just that they don't solve any of the problems he is interested in and Steam does.

Exactly, it doesn't solve any of HIS problems so it's going to fail... wait what?

Oh right, his comments contain creamy shit-filled centers. =)

Varsity

09-04-2005, 01:48 PM

Where did he say that?

Oh right, he didn't.

notice it's almost exclusively PC programmers saying there is a problem?Can the console developers afford to complain about the way they make their money? You didn't actually address his concerns either - not that it's going to be harder, which was a by-the-way in the first place, but that it doesn't help with what he considers today's challenges.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 01:51 PM

Curious question: is the Xbox the shortest lived console before a "sequel" version arrives? 4 years is not a long time at all. The PS2 is an ancient in comparison. No wonder the thing looks dated: it has given joy for nigh on 7 years.

The XBOX came out a single year after the PS2... the PS3 is coming out just under a year after the 360. It's not that big of a difference.

My PS2 is the same one I got on the day the system launched. My Xbox, on the other hand, has been purchased three different times. So yeah, good blanket you got there.

I'm sorry you keep throwing your XBOX's out of windows, but most of us don't have a problem with them.

AspectVoid

09-04-2005, 01:52 PM

Best reason not to buy a PS3: It's made by Sony, so in a year you will have to buy a new one.

Funny enough, I've had 2 brand new x-box's break on me, while my single PS2 that I bought used still works with no problems. From my experiance, its the X360 that'll die in a year, not the PS3.

Tricky Thumb

09-04-2005, 01:59 PM

To be honest I wish Gabe would just go back to making his PC games, because that's what matters the most to me. I really couldn't care much less about how he feels concerning the PS3 or Xbox 360.

Kelegacy

09-04-2005, 02:00 PM

The XBOX came out a single year after the PS2... the PS3 is coming out just under a year after the 360. It's not that big of a difference.

I'm sorry you keep throwing your XBOX's out of windows, but most of us don't have a problem with them.

Actually, the PS2 came out in March 2000. If they launch the PS3 in March it will be 6 years. The Xbox will have enjoyed 4 years to the day before the new one comes out. Think about it: the Xbox is still only in it's 3rd year and people are already starting to take preorders for the next console, have been since earlier this year. That isnt a long time at all.

2 years extra for a console is a long time. A much better value or investment, one might say.

CapnBob

09-04-2005, 02:02 PM

Btw, he also goes after the X36 and the Revolution. Bascially his argument is that the console makers are not making it easier for developers to create great games. He would like the focus to be more on features for developers to interact with their customers than to be on throwing a ton of pixels on screen.

Wait... how the hell can he go after the Revolution for that? Does he know what it is? Will he tell us?

Blue

09-04-2005, 02:07 PM

I'm sorry you keep throwing your XBOX's out of windows, but most of us don't have a problem with them.

Can you hear that? It's the sound of a boy grasping at straws.

FunkyPoopMonkey

09-04-2005, 02:16 PM

Identical is not spelled like testicle.
Well excuuuuuuse me, princess!

mos

09-04-2005, 02:22 PM

I really don't think the person responsible for Steam is the best informant of console gaming.
I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other, but whatever. What I really want to know is why so many people hate Steam so much. I installed it and had HL2 ready to go days before launch, all I needed was my serial key and I was instantly in the game.

Since then, I've downloaded a couple of other titles through Steam, and I've never had any problems. I think it's a great way to get games, and I wish I could get them all like that. What's the deal with all the hate?

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 02:23 PM

Can you hear that? It's the sound of a boy grasping at straws.

No, I just don't take bullshit seriously. You haven't bought three XBOX's that have all died on you. You are lieing, it's just that simple. Now when you grow up and stop spouting bullshit on forums, then I'll give you real replies.

Blue

09-04-2005, 02:32 PM

No, I just don't take bullshit seriously. You haven't bought three XBOX's that have all died on you. You are lieing, it's just that simple. Now when you grow up and stop spouting bullshit on forums, then I'll give you real replies.

When you can't come up with a viable response to a legitimate response that refutes yours, claim the other guy's lying (notice how I spelled "lying"). Way to be formulaic. Keep chugging out those generalizations partner.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 02:37 PM

When you can't come up with a viable response to a legitimate response that refutes yours, claim the other guy's lying (notice how I spelled "lying"). Way to be formulaic. Keep chugging out those generalizations partner.

I don't have to prove it, that's the wonderful thing about the internet. But I can make general assumptions about what a rational, normal person would do given a situation where they might have to buy another XBOX. I can't see anyone buying three that are all defective when I haven't met one person in real life that has had even a single one break without the owner being directly responsible.

Grow up.

Blue

09-04-2005, 02:46 PM

I don't have to prove it, that's the wonderful thing about the internet. But I can make general assumptions about what a rational, normal person would do given a situation where they might have to buy another XBOX. I can't see anyone buying three that are all defective when I haven't met one person in real life that has had even a single one break without the owner being directly responsible.

Grow up.

The Box is the only system save for the Dreamcast that I've had crap out on me. I picked up another 'cast and it's been a beaut ever since. The Box just hasn't been. Maybe it's my luck, who knows, but as rational gamer who wanted to play his games, I picked up another one so I could get my (then) Halo fix on. Not my fault you can't picture it and then start throwing a hissy fit and yelling at the other person who disagrees with you. I need to grow up? Get rid of the two-year old mentality and we'll talk. Read some of your other posts and then tell me I'm the one who needs to age.

bobbler

09-04-2005, 02:52 PM

I know as many people with Xbox's that have died as I do PS2s. It isn't as if the Xbox was a manufacturing marvel with the highest quality standards, it is a cheaply made as possible black box just like the other consoles (GC happens to be the most reliable by far, it seems).

I can't understand why you won't believe the Xbox breaks down -- from my experience the only reason you don't hear about Xbox as a crappy unreliable piece of hardware is because there just isn't as many of them out there, meanwhile there is 4x as many PS2s. Even if the fail rate was the same, you'd hear about vastly more PS2 failures. Something inside me says the Xbox has a pretty similar fail rate as the PS2 (it is also younger, so it has the advantage of most being younger than most of the PS2s). Don't act so surprised that they break.

Tricky Thumb

09-04-2005, 02:54 PM

I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other, but whatever. What I really want to know is why so many people hate Steam so much. I installed it and had HL2 ready to go days before launch, all I needed was my serial key and I was instantly in the game.

Since then, I've downloaded a couple of other titles through Steam, and I've never had any problems. I think it's a great way to get games, and I wish I could get them all like that. What's the deal with all the hate?

Steam is a system in which developers don't have to deal with publishers pushing release dates and spendy retail boxes essentialy, well that's the basics of it. It's essential a very great idea, with flaws that still need to be worked out app-wise. This sort of system is not possible on a console and Gabe is all about USING Steam. So really, the issue Gabe Newell seems to have is with consoles not being like PCs in the sense of Steam. Or at least that's how he tends to come off at times. I know I could very well be completely wrong in this assumtion of mine.

Oh and just for the record I'm a big Steam fan. Not only do I plan on playing DoD:S soon I'm going to be getting Pirates of the Burning Sea over Steam when that eventually releases.

Kelegacy

09-04-2005, 02:54 PM

mister slim is currently having Xbox problems. That's one person I know. He doesnt seem like the type to take it swimming or skydiving or beat it maniacally with a hammer. I dont have any friends or aquaintances with an Xbox so my non-forum experience is limited.

Zeal

09-04-2005, 02:56 PM

I don't care what anyone says, I can tell from the interview that the guy knows what he's talking about. I believe him on a majority of what he said.

HumpYourWay

09-04-2005, 02:59 PM

The fat lady sings....

Come on - its obvious he has got no love for consoles...

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 03:11 PM

Not my fault you can't picture it and then start throwing a hissy fit and yelling at the other person who disagrees with you.

I'm just typeing in between Gunz matches, I don't know what your problem is.

Blue

09-04-2005, 03:15 PM

I'm just typeing in between Gunz matches, I don't know what your problem is.

Well, it would probably have to do with you calling me a liar and then telling me to grow up. Could be that. I dunno.

And how is Gunz? Friend said it was fun but his tastes generally differ from mine.

Zanzibar

09-04-2005, 03:23 PM

Finally had my Xbox start getting DRE's, had it since launch. Microsoft repaired it free of charge.

At the office, we've got PS2 test stations - about 30 of em - that die usually one per month.

Zeal

09-04-2005, 03:37 PM

The title of this thread is misleading. He criticizes Microsoft and the 360 just as much.

rein

09-04-2005, 03:37 PM

After the Xbox had been out for a year our defective (warranty) return box started to be about even with PS2 vs Xbox return rate. Gamecubes are just incredible.... maybe one very 8-9 months returned defective. My personal experience, Xbox with thompson drive=the sucks and it will break.

I wonder if Mr. Newell has ever approached Sony (or any other console developer) about using steam as a content delivery system?

civx

09-04-2005, 03:49 PM

bxox is not what you think big parachute the ps2 it break all the stairs my france brought it under the rocks but it keep break the warrentyies

thecrazyd

09-04-2005, 03:53 PM

bxox is not what you think big parachute the ps2 it break all the stairs my france brought it under the rocks but it keep break the warrentyies
Umm... do you know what these forums could use? A spell check.

bean19

09-04-2005, 04:07 PM

bobbler - I appreciated your post re: multi-threading and knowing assembly. I'm one of those young coders that is looking to break into the game industry and I find this very daunting.

I'm thinking of shifting my major to General Studies and focusing on writing. I really want to be a content designer more than a coder. Coding fulfills my sense of logic, but writing fulfills this (grammar) and my sense of creativity. Maybe coding could fulfill my sense of creativity, but usually when I try something "new" it has been done by someone before. . . done a lot BETTER by someone before. I guess the same can be said about writing, but stealing code is not looked down upon. :)

Rangoth

09-04-2005, 04:10 PM

To all those Assembly Warriors out there, my hats off to you. I have nightmares over that shit.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 04:14 PM

bxox is not what you think big parachute the ps2 it break all the stairs my france brought it under the rocks but it keep break the warrentyies

What the fuck man... seriously, this hurts me inside.

civx

09-04-2005, 04:35 PM

What the fuck man... seriously, this hurts me inside.

if you dont like forums are free then you can shaft :mad: :mad: :mad:

Achilles

09-04-2005, 04:39 PM

lost

09-04-2005, 04:40 PM

Just because somebody mentioned it waaay back in this thread, I didn't hear him mention Revolution. I doubt it's a format Valve are interested in working with anyway.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that not a single developer is going to say "Yeah! The <next-gen console> is a great step forward and we look forward to the challenges it brings!". Haha other than EA perhaps.

At the moment, Im holding out for Revolution but I'm struggling to see it offering diversity like the Playstation consoles I've stuck with have. However, I'm swaying to switching my gaming to PC. Games are cheaper for a start and developers rarely complain. I'm making a game at the moment and can't whine a single bit. If it was a console game *laughs at concept of having that much cash* I don't think I'd be finding it so enjoyable.

Cutting to the point, basically he's saying X360 sucks, PS3 sucks and oh yeah Vista will apparently suck. The future seems to suck my friends, so lets blow back.

EDIT: Also, can we cut down on the sensationalist headlines!

bean19

09-04-2005, 04:42 PM

hund_

09-04-2005, 04:47 PM

all this console talk and no one noticed he said longhorn[vistas?] was a piece of crap ;)

Kelegacy

09-04-2005, 04:53 PM

What the fuck man... seriously, this hurts me inside.

We need a forum bot that hunts down these illiterates and feasts on their under-developed brains.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 04:57 PM

if you dont like forums are free then you can shaft

WHY DO YOU EXIST?!

rubek

09-04-2005, 05:14 PM

WHY DO YOU EXIST?!

wow.
you know how the whole internet thing is worldwide?
and how people in other countries may speak other languages, besides english?
give the fella a break.

civx

09-04-2005, 05:22 PM

wow.
you know how the whole internet thing is worldwide?
and how people in other countries may speak other languages, besides english?
give the fella a break.

thx sumtime when the phone its very hard :eek: :) :p

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 05:28 PM

wow.
you know how the whole internet thing is worldwide?
and how people in other countries may speak other languages, besides english?
give the fella a break

How conveniant that a person would create an account just to say that, in an equally illiterate way. It's almost suspicious, some might say.

KNOTE

09-04-2005, 05:31 PM

Yeah Gabe Newell is so dumb. He's not nearly as smart as some of the readers of Evil Avatar. He hasn't shipped as many games as tricky thumb or have as much inside information as Kelegacy. He's just some hack who has overseen some stupid games called the Half Lifes. and... HE's fAT !!! hahah !!!11oneone

Seriously though, I love posting here and I love reading most comments but sometimes irrational and stupid posts start getting to me. Sorry for calling you two in particular out but godDAMN. The guy knows his shit. Believe me. Try listening to what he said and then considering what the valid and invalid points are. It helps! Dismissing an industry veteran like that is ridiculous.

Kelegacy

09-04-2005, 05:38 PM

His contempt for the consoles has always been obvious. That's all I was pointing out. I take what he says with a grain of salt, though. He's made 2 good games and I respect him as a developer. That doesn't make him evade the accusatory nature of EvAv'ers though. We rip George Bush and Hilary Clinton just as equally here. No one is above the EvAv law.

And I never said he was fat. I think I used the word obese.

Fonz

09-04-2005, 05:55 PM

Evilavatar15yroldposter: OMG SONY SUCKS go XBOX I CANT WAIT FOR HALO 3 and DOA 4 Sooo i can see boobies.

Xbox Live tag: KTHNXBYE ROFLCOPTER.

now flame on folks.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 06:05 PM

ROFLCOPTER... I love that word. That's an awesome word. You my friend have come up with the best word ever. I love you man.

Achilles

09-04-2005, 06:27 PM

I think he is trying to sell Steam. . . I have to respect that he isn't very good at spinning information though.

At some point, do you think we will have celebrity designers who are picked for the celebrity factor? I mean, will we have a game that is built buy several devs, but then they make some ultra-charismatic "it" boy with a degree in PR out as the company-head?I think you're right about the trying to sell Steam comment. He's got his own platform now and to a degree it competes with console games.

There are a few celebrity designers: Will Wright’s probably the biggest one, but they’re not celebrity in the same way as movie folks are. It takes a lot of people to get a game to work. It might be one person’s vision but it probably isn’t. A lot of times when you see these designers separated from their team their games go down hill dramatically.

But apart from that I'm kinda glad that games don't have the same E! channel culture around them that movies do. That culture's sick if you ask me.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 06:32 PM

A lot of times when you see these designers separated from their team their games go down hill dramatically.

Just to elaborate on your point:

Molyneux - Bullfrog = Shit.

Achilles

09-04-2005, 06:46 PM

Just to elaborate on your point:

Molyneux - Bullfrog = Shit.Yep! Same goes for the "Gods of Doom". Even if you like Molyneux's new games (which I kinda do), it's clear that the design of his games has changed a lot without Bullfrog. In many ways the design skills of the team matter as much as the person leading it.

Genital Eclipse

09-04-2005, 06:56 PM

I can truthfully say that I wish I was dead after reading this thread.

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 06:58 PM

I can truthfully say that I wish I was dead after reading this thread.

Maybe you are? Maybe this is hell?

*WHAT A TWIST!*

Kefkataran

09-04-2005, 07:03 PM

ROFLCOPTER... I love that word. That's an awesome word. You my friend have come up with the best word ever. I love you man.

Wanna go LOLLERskating?

Mr_Snuffle

09-04-2005, 07:47 PM

Just to elaborate on your point:

Molyneux - Bullfrog = Shit.

That's a bit harsh, all we've seen from Lionhead is B&W 1, which really was pushed out before it was complete, and EA is at least partly to blame for that.

And before anyone brings up Fable, Monyneux was just a consultant on that one, it's like bad mouthing Black Isle for Lionheart...

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 07:51 PM

Don't get me wrong... I don't think Bullfrog is that great without Molyneux either. A bunch of former Bullfrog employees formed a company after Bullfrog folded and made a game called Startopia... Really wasn't that hot.

GrinR

09-04-2005, 07:59 PM

wow.
you know how the whole internet thing is worldwide?
and how people in other countries may speak other languages, besides english?
give the fella a break.

People in other countries also sew their women's vaginas up and eat dog, don't make it right.

Mr_Snuffle

09-04-2005, 08:06 PM

bean19

09-04-2005, 08:13 PM

Well, I'm not going to look down on a culture for eating dog, but the whole female circumsision (sp?) thing, that's an... interesting... topic. From the perspective of other cultures I'm sure westerners do equally barbaric things, both physically and spiritually

True. We used to not allow black people to go to the same schools as white people and before that we didn't let women vote, and before that we had slavery. . . so we are getting better.

We still look down on gay people and will not grant them the benefits that are allowed to straight couples. . . so we still have some work to do (among other things).

But if you did a comparison of barbarism with other countries, we are right up their with the other first-world civilizations as far as human rights for our own citizens. Our foreign policy is pretty civil too. . . it's just how we routinely step outside that policy that is troubling.

Zeal

09-04-2005, 08:22 PM

Evilavatar15yroldposter: OMG SONY SUCKS go XBOX I CANT WAIT FOR HALO 3 and DOA 4 Sooo i can see boobies.

Xbox Live tag: KTHNXBYE ROFLCOPTER.

now flame on folks.

I like EvilAvatar's pro-Microsoft sentiment. I could do without all of the closet Nintendo fans, though.

A-Team

09-04-2005, 08:30 PM

I bet Gabe wouldn't be so angry at consoles if he knew how to get them for free!

http://www.filerushnews.com/images/FileRushNewsPics/aod.jpg

The * should have sent a few sirens off in your head. You aren't actually going to get one for free even if you do shoot it with the imaginary gun made out of Flash.

... or will you?

Zeal

09-04-2005, 08:30 PM

I know. I've already won like 90 of them.

ebay time.

Mojopin

09-04-2005, 09:04 PM

People in other countries also sew their women's vaginas up and eat dog, don't make it right.
Wait a minute... what?!? :confused:

Murmillo

09-04-2005, 09:39 PM

wow, this thread has gone off track. Can't we all just bash Gabe for being the fat 'Steam' pusher that he is. He's like the street corner crack dealer... "come on, you want steam! Its fucking good for your computer!! Its the best shit you'll ever put on your computer!"

Gabe, the who has has only created 2 games, hasn't had any dealings with consoles other then the recent porting of his precious HL2 onto the Xbox, now thinks that he's in the position that makes him some sort of industry leader that we should all listen too and respect in all matters of gaming PC and console?
Fuck that - seriously.
I'll rather listen to John Carmak, Will Wright, the developers of Splinter Cell, the whole GTA series development team and any other development team that has coded for both consoles and PC's with more then 2 freaken games on thier belt.

Gabe "might" be a bit knowlege able when it comes to Vista, but as for consoles... just wasting his breath and time that he could be eating another donut.

buckfutter

09-04-2005, 09:41 PM

Yes, eating dog is totally disgusting.

Now to bury into a huge pile of veal.

Immaculate Simian

09-04-2005, 10:00 PM

Gabe seems to spend a lot of the interview avoiding eye contact, not looking into the camera, and staring down at the table. These signs would seem to indicate that he doesn't really feel confident in/believe strongly in what he is saying. From that we can assume that he is just trying to discredit the "big three" and convince everyone that a computer with Steam is "the end-all-be-all of electronic gaming entertainment!". :rolleyes:

Heretic Machine

09-04-2005, 10:26 PM

These signs would seem to indicate that he doesn't really feel confident in/believe strongly in what he is saying.

Or maybe we could come to the much more reasonable assumption that he, like most geeks, isn't extremly sociable.

Immaculate Simian

09-04-2005, 10:53 PM

Or maybe we could come to the much more reasonable assumption that he, like most geeks, isn't extremly sociable.
The Evil Avatar website along with the hundreds of other websites & magazines, and conventions such as PAX and E3 are proof positive that geeks are VERY sociable.

Monroeski

09-05-2005, 12:13 AM

The Evil Avatar website along with the hundreds of other websites & magazines, and conventions such as PAX and E3 are proof positive that geeks are VERY sociable.

Ha. Ha ha. Ha.

Varsity

09-05-2005, 12:15 AM

Is Gabe even making a game for the PS3 or 360? Does he have access to the developer support and tools for both systems, and is he invested at all in looking at the solutions the 360 in particular has presented to his concerns? Because he's acting like MS hasn't thought about user created content when in fact that's been a focus of theirs.
I'd be suprised if they didn't have both dev kits. You'll also not that he specifies the 'system side' when listing MS. Live! is a big competitor to Steam.

At some point, do you think we will have celebrity designers who are picked for the celebrity factor? I mean, will we have a game that is built buy several devs, but then they make some ultra-charismatic "it" boy with a degree in PR out as the company-head?American McGee's Scrapland?

It really is amazing how quickly so many people assume this is a console-bash. Just read/listen to the interview: "it doesn't solve the problems I am interested in" is a far cry from "it's a piece of trash with no redeeming features that will fail utterly".

Hizawky

09-05-2005, 03:59 AM

The Evil Avatar website along with the hundreds of other websites & magazines, and conventions such as PAX and E3 are proof positive that geeks are VERY sociable.

Congratulations on making me laugh.

baz

09-05-2005, 04:40 AM

Criticism isn't really a bad thing. Developers should push for what they want in the next gen. The end system should be some sort of compromise between the manufacturer's interests and the developer's interests.

Its not like Gabe Newell has set himself up as some sort of console expert or anything. People respect his opinion so they ask him for an interview, and then he accepts and gives his response. I know its the nature of the internet for a bunch of barely literate fucktards to jump on any perceived insult to the system that they hold so dear, but its still fucking retarded.

I seriously doubt that any developer is 100% happy with any system, as thats the way things go. Things get better because people aren't happy with today's solutions and they push for what they want.

BenSkywalker

09-05-2005, 06:35 AM

Bascially his argument is that the console makers are not making it easier for developers to create great games.

Not at all- he is saying that the console makers aren't tailor making their systems to push Gabe Newell's idea of a revenue stream. Really take a good listen to his comments particularly those based around how they need to emulate WoW. Given that HL2 is little more then another me too shooter I find it rather comical how he wants to run up against a MMORPG's business model. He also wants to be a central controlling figure in getting games into gamers hands- this is from a person who has managed to ship two titles in over eight years. Why on Earth would any gamer want to be on the 'Gabe Newell' system when he has released a whopping thirty hours worth of gameplay in eight years? The fact is that he wants to use Steam to push himself as a publisher and distributor of a broad range of titles. This has nothing at all with Gabe Newell looking to be the next Miyamoto or Wright- this has everything with Gabe Newell wanting to be the next EA.

Try listening to what he said and then considering what the valid and invalid points are. It helps! Dismissing an industry veteran like that is ridiculous.

An industry veteran... of what worth? He has released one smash hit- built on Carmack's engine- and another title that faired well in initial sales(although it has proven to be an abject failure in staying power compared to its predecessor). The only title he was directly responsible for had its most noteable technical merit was the physics engine which was licensed from Havok.

On top of that- this is a man who hasn't directly handled a completed console title to date- he is a completely unproven rookie in the field he is bashing at the moment.

Now explain why is it that his comments should be taken as anything but amusing? He has been the lead in a singular engine for the PC- which was still utilizing licensed technology- and was bested in every non licensed technical aspect prior to its release(FarCry). This is a person who we should give extra consideration to? No, I will take his comments as I would from anyone.

First off is his IQ reducing sentiment that more graphics power isn't needed for the "640x480" screen. What kind of ignorant rubbish is this? Had he directed that solely at Nintendo I could understand- but Microsoft won't even allow a game to be published on their platform that runs at that resolution(not sure if Sony will tollerate it or not yet). Sony and MS are both pushing the HD element of their consoles to a rather extreme level for this coming generation. Moving from Gabe's standard for the next gen consoles(which only exists for 'N') to the real high end target Sony has is a 675% difference- those extra pixels may take a bit more power to draw then last gen hardware.

Next up is his harping on the need for a community built around a particular game. That is an extremely PC centric viewpoint and one that does not and will not translate to the console world outside of very limited examples. The 'system side' element can work as you bring together gamers in general and they can enjoy playing together a variety of titles- whatever is playable online. With Newell's attempted solution you would have to build a different list of friends for each publisher and then make your way through several layers of abstraction before making it into the game. That does not work in the console space. Even MS's 'smash hit' Live! has less then 10% of the XB's marketshare and that is a small slice of the pie to start with. In generational terms less then 2% of current gen consoles are utilized for anything remotely like what Gabe has envisioned. This certainly is not due to lack of availability or lack of knowledge on the parts of consumers- the console market tends to be more casual.

Console gamers also like to pick games up, play through them, and then turn them in at significantly higher ratios then their PC counterparts. You think console gamers are going to accept having a disk tied to them that they can never resell en masse? Not going to happen in your lifetime Gabe. Take a good look at the market. I was saying last generation that MS was nuts if they thought that Live! was going to be a major selling point to a large quantity of console gamers and was told that MS has a lot of people that know a lot more then I do that think otherwise. Clearly, these people that are so like Newell know a lot more about a place I'm not familiar with- certainly not Earth.

bapenguin

09-05-2005, 07:49 AM

I didn't read this whole thread...I just have on ething to say:

What the hell does VALVE know about Consoles?

Knite

09-05-2005, 08:00 AM

What the hell does VALVE know about Consoles?

At least as much as the opinionated bastages here at EvAv. =)

saran_js

09-05-2005, 09:23 AM

Knite wrote : At least as much as the opinionated bastages here at EvAv. =)

Hahahahahahahahhahahahahaha !!!! Good one Knite. :D

Shifteh

09-05-2005, 02:50 PM

I'd take what the maker of Steam says with a grain of salt.

XxSATANxX

09-06-2005, 11:03 AM

After watching this interview I IMMEDIATLY went on a diet.

mister_slim

09-06-2005, 03:21 PM

Gabe, the who has has only created 2 games, hasn't had any dealings with consoles other then the recent porting of his precious HL2 onto the Xbox, now thinks that he's in the position that makes him some sort of industry leader that we should all listen too and respect in all matters of gaming PC and console?
You don't think he has a 360 dev kit? I bet Valve not only has one, but is trying to make sure Half-Life 2 will be forward compatible with the 360. And I bet they're not having fun doing it.
The only title he was directly responsible for had its most noteable technical merit was the physics engine which was licensed from Havok.
Oh, that's why all those other games using the Havok engine have such entertaining use of physics.

A-Team

09-06-2005, 04:59 PM

After watching this interview I IMMEDIATLY went on a diet.
Hahahahahahahaha.

Thanks for the laugh. :)

Zeal

09-06-2005, 05:02 PM

bobbler

09-06-2005, 06:10 PM

The guy's overwhelming fatness isn't the issue here. He actually knows what he's talking about and it's pretty obvious.

I also respect him for speaking to the gaming media and fans like they aren't a bunch of idiots. He's getting down to business and isn't feeding everyone a bunch of pre-packaged PR bullshit (kinda like Frankie from Bungie).

He's letting the consumer on the inside of game development.

Except he has an unrealistic view of the world -- there are things you just have to deal with, and he doesn't seem to want to accept this. His expectations that everything should be patently easier as we go on are silly. His probablem stems from him hiring a team of people who either don't want to or aren't able to wrap their head around anything other than a fantastically beastly x86 OOO cpu and system (I mean in the way that x86 cpus will eat through the shittiest of code and accept it without bringing the system to its knees like it would elsewhere).

I wouldn't exactly say hes is an important figure head in the industry. His technical achievement with HL1 was a mod of Carmack's doing. HL2 wasn't exactly technically impressive (and still contains code from Q1 engine) -- only nice part of HL2 was the art and the physics, and neither of those have much to do with programming (havok was licensed). If you've dealt with source engine at the code base level you'll pull your hair out before you get much done. I'm not sure why this guy thinks (or magazines, etc) he has much weight and experience as to say console A and B are awful to work with. None of the impressive things his team (and him) have done fall into the category of programming excellence -- I'd say, seeing the source engine, that his team is far more average than he wants to admit. (he actually hinted at this during the video, without saying it outright).

Don't get me wrong, this guy has done a lot more than me and I respect what he actually has achieved. But he's not a source I would go to for this type of thing. He's whining because he has a staff that can't really handle the curve ball that the industry has thrown to everyone -- that is all I see. He also has an agenda and a twisted view of things, being the creator Steam and all.