GTA IV: Have We Reached the Turning Point?

[Slack3r78]

Slate has a published a compelling article (http://www.slate.com/id/2190207) which suggests that GTA IV has truly hit a point of transcendence in its narrative:

As you'd probably expect from the reputation of the series, Grand Theft Auto IV includes—let's quickly consult the label—blood, intense violence, partial nudity, strong language, strong sexual content, and use of drugs and alcohol. Yes, concerned teenage boys of America, if your parents are irresponsible enough to let you get your hands on this, you can still kill and maim and plunder and screw until your heart is full. But there's a difference this time: The violence is no longer cartoonish. Shoot an innocent bystander, and you see his face contort in agony. He'll clutch at the wound and begin to stagger away, desperately seeking safety. After just scratching the surface of the game—I played for part of a day; it could take 60 hours to complete the whole thing—I felt unnerved. What makes Grand Theft Auto IV so compelling is that, unlike so many video games, it made me reflect on all of the disturbing things I had done.

Combined with the universally rave reviews that GTA IV has been recieving, have we reached the point where gaming has truly reached the point of masterpiece? Is this the one that might finally break Roger Ebert's back with an acknowledgment that games might just be art? The Slate author suggest that this might just be the tipping point where we reach the point that it's not just about mindless killing anymore.

[violentp]

I find it pretty transparent how the label of genius is tested on new products. It proves to me that this kind of story is purely banking on GTA's fresh popularity. You want turning point? You want masterpiece? Look up something like Shadow of the Colossus. Unfortunately though, the mainstream consumer would make no connections with such a title. GTA4 is a great game. Phenomenally genius and a true step forward in our industry? No. Greatest game ever? Not even close. It's a great game, nothing more. That's just me though.

[Slack3r78]

You want turning point? You want masterpiece? Look up something like Shadow of the Colossus. Unfortunately though, the mainstream consumer would make no connections with such a title.
As someone who has honestly never played SoC, does it ever make you regret any of the decisions you've made?

[TheFlyingOrc]

I find it pretty transparent how the label of genius is tested on new products. It proves to me that this kind of story is purely banking on GTA's fresh popularity. You want turning point? You want masterpiece? Look up something like Shadow of the Colossus. Unfortunately though, the mainstream consumer would make no connections with such a title. GTA4 is a great game. Phenomenally genius and a true step forward in our industry? No. Greatest game ever? Not even close. It's a great game, nothing more. That's just me though.
I don't think you understood what the article was trying to say.

[violentp]

I don't think you understood what the article was trying to say.

Maybe. Actually I think I was venting a little more than anything.

As someone who has honestly never played SoC, does it ever make you regret any of the decisions you've made?

Nope. Have you ever sat there and simply watched your adversary for 15 minutes before even deciding to act? Regret is easy to generate in a game. Awe, not so much.

[TheFlyingOrc]

As someone who has honestly never played SoC, does it ever make you regret any of the decisions you've made?

Actually, it does. You feel kinda bad for killing most of the colossi. They're magnificent beasts, and while the buildup is amazing, after the climax, it actually makes you feel kinda empty.

...like masturbation, really.

[jeffool]

As someone who has honestly never played SoC, does it ever make you regret any of the decisions you've made?By God that's a resounding yes. Far more than I'll regret any decision made in GTA.

/edit: Also, I think this is far from gaming's masterpiece. This is just GTA joining the ranks of other games like Ico/SotC/BioShock/And-other-games-with-actual-purpose.

[violentp]

Actually, it does. You feel kinda bad for killing most of the colossi.

This is true even though I answered differently above.

[vivafletcher]

What amazes me about the game (I don't have it, but have played it quite a bit) is how it still feels like a GTA game. I was a little concerned that with so many new features and so much talk about a giant leap in the series that it wouldn't feel like GTA anymore.

But it does. I don't know if it's a "masterpiece" or not, but I think people had unrealistically high expectations for this title, and it actually delivered on those unrealistic expectations. Can't ask for more than that. And the little online I played was very, very tight. It's clear they didn't tack that on at the end.

[jeffbax]

Games have been art for a long time, and Ebert is an idiot, but if GTA4 makes more people realize it then all the better.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Games have been art for a long time, and Ebert is an idiot, but if GTA4 makes more people realize it then all the better.

Oh, games still aren't "high art", as in Ebert's correction on his statement. Lousy narrative format.

[violentp]

Oh, games still aren't "high art", as in Ebert's correction on his statement. Lousy narrative format.

He never played Picross.

[Slack3r78]

Games have been art for a long time, and Ebert is an idiot, but if GTA4 makes more people realize it then all the better.

I really don't think Ebert is an idiot. I think Ebert is a very insightful film critic who has unfotunately been left behind.

[TheFlyingOrc]

He never played Picross.

I drawed a good Mario.

[fitbabits]

Actually, it does. You feel kinda bad for killing most of the colossi. They're magnificent beasts, and while the buildup is amazing, after the climax, it actually makes you feel kinda empty

I played through the game once and was very affected by it. Tried playing through it a second time and was even more affected by it.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I played through the game once and was very affected by it. Tried playing through it a second time and was even more affected by it.

I'm surprised - while I loved the game, I felt no motivation to play through it the second time...

Maybe I'm just not a little girl on the inside like you are, fit. ;)

[fitbabits]

I'm surprised - while I loved the game, I felt no motivation to play through it the second time...

Maybe I'm just not a little girl on the inside like you are, fit. ;)

I think I may be a bigger little girl than you - at least on the inside! :)

The reason I decided to play it again was to see if it would affect me the same way, even though I knew what was going to happen.

[Slack3r78]

I think I may be a bigger little girl than you - at least on the inside! :)

The reason I decided to play it again was to see if it would affect me the same way, even though I knew what was going to happen.

Fits, I think I've said it before, but despite my making-fun-of-your-pseudonym alt, I think you're a cool guy. ;)

[jakie_chon]

I actually never regretted killing the big guys. I thought the main guy KNEW it was a bad idea, but was willing to do it anyway to get the girl back to life. I played it through at least 4 times :P, and damn you, now I feel like playing it again.

On GTA, well, I don't enjoy that type of games. Perhaps because the closest thing to it I played was mafia on the ps2.

[mister_slim]

Oh, games still aren't "high art", as in Ebert's correction on his statement. Lousy narrative format.

What does narrative have to do with high art?

[Kamalot]

As someone who has honestly never played SoC, does it ever make you regret any of the decisions you've made?

Shadow of the Colossus is a very sad game. Not 'sad' as in 'beat you over the head with long, drawn-out story pieces' or as in 'killing off a character you've grown attached to'. It is much more tragic than these artificial trappings.

Imagine if the only way to save someone close to you was to smash an entire gallery of priceless art. Or to burn down an entire rain forest. Or to hunt and kill whales to extinction. The colossi are magnificent creatures, relics of a magical world that aren't interested in harming you. They are innocent wonders, majestic mountains of art and splendor. And your job is to murder them, for your own personal gain. It is a painful game to play, and one with a lot of subtext.

[Slack3r78]

Shadow of the Colossus is a very sad game. Not 'sad' as in 'beat you over the head with long, drawn-out story pieces' or as in 'killing off a character you've grown attached to'. It is much more tragic than these artificial trappings.

Imagine if the only way to save someone close to you was to smash an entire gallery of priceless art. Or to burn down an entire rain forest. Or to hunt and kill whales to extinction. The colossi are magnificent creatures, relics of a magical world that aren't interested in harming you. They are innocent wonders, majestic mountains of art and splendor. And your job is to murder them, for your own personal gain. It is a painful game to play, and one with a lot of subtext.

Does SoC work on the PS3? I'll put it highly on my list of games to get, if so.

[Kamalot]

Does SoC work on the PS3? I'll put it highly on my list of games to get, if so.

Depends on your PS3. I have a 20 gig so it plays just fine. It should play just the same on the 60 gigger. Won't play at all on the 40 gig unit, and I'm not certain about the quality on the 80 gig.

Yea! Someone will pick up SotC because of me! It is seriously one game that everyone should play.

Edit: I just used the Backwards Compatibility Checklist (http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus) on the Playstation site and found that Shadow of the Colossus has, "No major problems for this title." Not sure what the difference is between major and minor problems, but it should be playable on an 80 gig system.

[Heretic Machine]

December '07, part 2.

[51|RandoM]

I don't understand why GTAIV is getting so much credit for the story and acting when other games have provided great stories and acting as well.

[Rex Dart]

I'm in the minority here, but I felt bad about a lot of my actions in GTA3. I'd just be driving around the city, accidentally run someone over, and immediately feel a twinge of guilt. I'm clearly not the target audience for any GTA game.

I may empathize with digital people far too easily.

[Kamalot]

I'm in the minority here, but I felt bad about a lot of my actions in GTA3. I'd just be driving around the city, accidentally run someone over, and immediately feel a twinge of guilt. I'm clearly not the target audience for any GTA game.

I may empathize with digital people far too easily.

You aren't the only one. I haven't played the new one yet, but just watching the player drive over innocent people in the freeze-up videos (http://youtube.com/browse?&session=qHe6HF9VfDnzI9k1DkGoCh0RbAne3KSdS_ZDub_MBF sxwsiHM0QSwNkzfKU2C0PygJ-R6MlPYphJHPinh0xLTbwNyNCtiyve4XzdYOJrzXsnwjeFJZ7dX qRZYcJU4w0UDYLg424NzDu5GLpWWODc0B1Wpids_40vaPzX9Pa 7ePlHJ7JEtCs_j0kUyoGp4ZVwLXmrDXEsQVXV9PuaeoTdP0KrI V6rcLYmYbRhvHND7r1PwrVDz6WRug==) elicits empathy from me. Heck, I felt bad for accidentally killing people in Crackdown... although sometimes that was actually fitbabits I was blowing up. :eek:

[Heretic Machine]

You aren't the only one. I haven't played the new one yet, but just watching the player drive over innocent people in the freeze-up videos (http://youtube.com/browse?&session=qHe6HF9VfDnzI9k1DkGoCh0RbAne3KSdS_ZDub_MBF sxwsiHM0QSwNkzfKU2C0PygJ-R6MlPYphJHPinh0xLTbwNyNCtiyve4XzdYOJrzXsnwjeFJZ7dX qRZYcJU4w0UDYLg424NzDu5GLpWWODc0B1Wpids_40vaPzX9Pa 7ePlHJ7JEtCs_j0kUyoGp4ZVwLXmrDXEsQVXV9PuaeoTdP0KrI V6rcLYmYbRhvHND7r1PwrVDz6WRug==) elicits empathy from me. Heck, I felt bad for accidentally killing people in Crackdown... although sometimes that was actually fitbabits I was blowing up. :eek:

See, this is where me and you differ... In Crackdown, once the add-on came out, I was actively running over people in my tank as soon as I got a new one, and nailing them to the front with harpoons; you know, to strike fear in the heart of my enemies!

[Nighthold]

I don't understand why GTAIV is getting so much credit for the story and acting when other games have provided great stories and acting as well.

Because I think it has improved on various aspects like narrative, graphics, design, etc to the point that it looks impressive, intriquing, and revolutionary to non gamers.

Tell some reporter at the NY Times that Final Fantasy 6 had a great story and they would ignore you. Show them a lifelike recreation of new york city voiced by celebrities with a well written gangster narrative, and they can relate.

The media success of GTA IV owes not only to its quality, but its accessibility to the non-hardcore.

[RorschachCCCLX]

I have a hard time with all this universal acclaim going on for GTA IV, I think its boat loads of fun , but it retrains alot of flaws from the series that for me, would hold it back from a 10 or even a 9.5. like the terrible driving controls, having to hand break all turns over 5 mph, the fact melee combat is so sluggish it feels like you are under water... firing from cover seems to change each time I try and use it, and it seldom works right. ..cops still magicly spawn infront of you if you have a wanted star, and will sometimes shoot you while unarmed and haven't done any violent crimes...

by biggest gripe is that there are still missions that make you cling to a single vechicle for the whole mission while a third of all fire arms on earth are blazing at you at once... you *have* to come back in Roman's crappy car no matter what... seems an aftifical means of adding difficulty.

there is plenty to love about the game, and trust me I do, But it is a flawed game and I don't think I'd rank it above or near greats like Half-Life Metal Gear Solid

[Nighthold]

I have a hard time with all this universal acclaim going on for GTA IV, I think its boat loads of fun , but it retrains alot of flaws from the series that for me, would hold it back from a 10 or even a 9.5. like the terrible driving controls, having to hand break all turns over 5 mph, the fact melee combat is so sluggish it feels like you are under water... firing from cover seems to change each time I try and use it, and it seldom works right. ..cops still magicly spawn infront of you if you have a wanted star, and will sometimes shoot you while unarmed and haven't done any violent crimes...

by biggest gripe is that there are still missions that make you cling to a single vechicle for the whole mission while a third of all fire arms on earth are blazing at you at once... you *have* to come back in Roman's crappy car no matter what... seems an aftifical means of adding difficulty.

there is plenty to love about the game, and trust me I do, But it is a flawed game and I don't think I'd rank it above or near greats like Half-Life Metal Gear Solid

I fundamentally disagree with you on nearly every point, but whatever. I am not having any problems with controls (especially considering how bad they used to be) and I actually like the new driving system.

Some people are going to mark the game down for some of its faults, and thats fair. Even so, I think you have to recognize the sheer amount of elbow grease that went into this thing. Considering the game as a whole, saying its not so great because the controls (while very functional) could be a little tighter kind of seems like missing the forest for the trees.

[Kamalot]

Some people are going to mark the game down for some of its faults, and thats fair. Even so, I think you have to recognize the sheer amount of elbow grease that went into this thing. Considering the game as a whole, saying its not so great because the controls (while very functional) could be a little tighter kind of seems like missing the forest for the trees.
Games SHOULD be marked down for their faults. I'd also state that a game called Grand Theft Auto should have nailed the driving controls perfectly.

[Savok]

So none of you ever had second thoughts when dicking people over people in KOTOR and other western style RPGs?

[Kamalot]

So none of you ever had second thoughts when dicking people over people in KOTOR and other western style RPGs?

So, you don't play as the good guy?

Anyway though, KOTOR and Mass Effect are fairly far removed from reality. I know I couldn't play the Godfather game cause as part of the training missions I had to smash some young guy's face into a tombstone as he screamed and begged me to stop. I was playing on Wii where you make these hand gestures as if you are really grabbing someone by the shirt and smashing their face in. Made me ill. :(

If you like games like that, that's cool. But they aren't for me. I'm still waiting to try GTA IV though. I'm psyched about how big and open the world is, and how ambitious the project is.

[Superman's Dead]

I know I couldn't play the Godfather game cause as part of the training missions I had to smash some young guy's face into a tombstone as he screamed and begged me to stop.


To be fair, that guy DID try to rape Bonasera the undertaker's daughter, and when she defended her honor he caved her face in.

The Godfather is one game where killing random people always did feel pretty weird, yeah. But when it came to people like Paulie Gatto...well, you know. You never go against the family.

GTA 4 is the same way, with wonkier lines about violence when it comes to murdering cops. I'm not a big fan and I don't think Nico would be either, so missions that force me to kill cops are vaguely upsetting.

[tombofsoldier]

Half Life, Ocarina of Time, Planescape: Torment, Shadow of the Colossus... GTA4 has some good characters but Jon Irenicus from BG2 is at least as good a character, if not better than, anything Rockstar has done. But don't let that detract from this fluff piece.

[Savok]

I always play the good guy, but some games go off in a completely different direction (or involve achievement points) when you play evil.

I'm just saying, if it's taken until GTA4 to start feeling uncomfortable with some of your actions then there's something wrong with you, or by total luck you've completely missed that part of gaming.

[Nighthold]

Games SHOULD be marked down for their faults. I'd also state that a game called Grand Theft Auto should have nailed the driving controls perfectly.

Thats a very subjective standard though. Whats perfect for you might be too twitchy or slow for me. I would suggest that such a thing can never be perfect. Even real cars don't all drive "perfectly"

Like I said, I have no problems with the driving in GTA IV. I think they are just peachy. I *like* them. Others feel similarly, though not all others.

[Nighthold]

Half Life, Ocarina of Time, Planescape: Torment, Shadow of the Colossus... GTA4 has some good characters but Jon Irenicus from BG2 is at least as good a character, if not better than, anything Rockstar has done. But don't let that detract from this fluff piece.


Fluff piece? Wow, you are really letting that inner snob hang out aren't you?

Btw, I love all the games you just mentioned and I recognize their considerable artistic contributions and innovations, but I still think it is very pretentious to hold them over GTA IV like it is the latest Eddie Murphy movie.

[vallor]

I fundamentally disagree with you on nearly every point, but whatever. I am not having any problems with controls (especially considering how bad they used to be) and I actually like the new driving system.

Some people are going to mark the game down for some of its faults, and thats fair. Even so, I think you have to recognize the sheer amount of elbow grease that went into this thing. Considering the game as a whole, saying its not so great because the controls (while very functional) could be a little tighter kind of seems like missing the forest for the trees.

I know where you are coming from. I got a new TV that has some flaws but I still gave it a 5 star rating because the sum was greater than its parts. I'm withholding judgement until I play the game though I am a bit taken aback by all the jizzing people are doing in regards to this game. My years of experience make me naturally skeptical of so much unabashed glowing praise. It does look like a very cinematic experience though and I'm looking forward to it.

I do want to take exception though with two of your comments:
Flaws should be noted, to dismiss or trivialize them in some kind of gaming orgasm is foolish and does a disservice to people seeking information. Sort of like you dismiss the controls problems. Shitty controls with sprinkles are still shitty controls; no matter what the improvement is from previous games.

The second comment is the "elbow grease" comment. Thats just STUPID.

I defy you to tell me that Blizzard, among others, doesn't put out a game with just as much polish as GTA, but no one will say WoW or Starcraft are "art" or push any sort of boundaries? Christ, Blizzard influances the entire Korean culture and WoW will easily produce more revenue than GTA over the next two years! But... hey, gangsters w/ "edgy" content matter + middle to high graphics = Art!

Once, in Black & While I got pissed at my avatar because he wouldn't learn how to catch the fucking rock. So I beat him, and it was fun at first, kinda cool that you could do something like that in a game. Then I "killed him" (where he shrunk back to the smallest size and ended up curled in a fetal position in the his arena/home).

I felt so bad I never played the game again. And to this day I it still makes me uncomfortable to think about what that game taught me about myself.

Too bad it wasn't gangsters and mainstream content 'cause a game that can cause that reaction, IMO, was art long before Liberty City.

[Nighthold]

I know where you are coming from. I got a new TV that has some flaws but I still gave it a 5 star rating because the sum was greater than its parts. I'm withholding judgement until I play the game though I am a bit taken aback by all the jizzing people are doing in regards to this game. My years of experience make me naturally skeptical of so much unabashed glowing praise. It does look like a very cinematic experience though and I'm looking forward to it.

I do want to take exception though with two of your comments:
Flaws should be noted, to dismiss or trivialize them in some kind of gaming orgasm is foolish and does a disservice to people seeking information. Sort of like you dismiss the controls problems. Shitty controls with sprinkles are still shitty controls; no matter what the improvement is from previous games.

The second comment is the "elbow grease" comment. Thats just STUPID.

I defy you to tell me that Blizzard, among others, doesn't put out a game with just as much polish as GTA, but no one will say WoW or Starcraft are "art" or push any sort of boundaries? Christ, Blizzard influances the entire Korean culture and WoW will easily produce more revenue than GTA over the next two years! But... hey, gangsters w/ "edgy" content matter + middle to high graphics = Art!

Once, in Black & While I got pissed at my avatar because he wouldn't learn how to catch the fucking rock. So I beat him, and it was fun at first, kinda cool that you could do something like that in a game. Then I "killed him" (where he shrunk back to the smallest size and ended up curled in a fetal position in the his arena/home).

I felt so bad I never played the game again. And to this day I it still makes me uncomfortable to think about what that game taught me about myself.

Too bad it wasn't gangsters and mainstream content 'cause a game that can cause that reaction, IMO, was art long before Liberty City.

You misunderstood my point. Thats fine though, I don't really feel like getting into a long protracted argument.

I think this backlash is just a little silly. If the media hadn't jumped all over this and proclaimed it the culmination of all things videogame no one would be here bashing it, or at least very few people would.

But hey, bashing a good and popular game is a great opportunity for folks to show how smart and independent they are.

[Superman's Dead]

*a bunch of really good points*

I don't think a game like WoW can qualify as this kind of art (if that's what GTA is) because the story is a means, not an ends.

You can play WoW like my roommate and not really know what the hell 'Horde' means, or why they're at war with the Alliance. The plot is finely crafted and a lot of fun, I get lost in wowwiki sometimes, but isn't an integral part of the game to many gamers. It's just not.

Also, there's no sense of the character's identity. You are a level 26 Tauren Hunter, and...no one really gives a damn. In quests it inserts (classname) or (racename) and that's about as personal as it gets.

In GTA IV I checked my character's e-mail and there was something from Niko's mom letting him know that she knows that he may think he's a bad man, but she doesn't blame him. And he sent her back an e-mail saying he's sorry, but can't come home.

That took me less than sixty seconds in-game, but it was more of a real moment than anything in World of Warcraft.

[Zeal]

yeah, it's a turning point. a turning point in which other developers have to get off their lazy asses in order to match something so technically impressive. rockstar has finally perfected GTA.

[D.D.D.]

I know what that guy means... When I first played GTA3 and I was driving in the first 20 minutes of the game and I decided to run someone over to see if it would let me. Of course it did and the person let out a screem and the controller rumbled as well. I actually was kinda shocked at that and after 30 minutes of playing I had to meet up with a friend and I was rather nervous/extra-cautious of pedestrians while driving that day. :o
I'm still looking forward to GTAIV (when ever I buy a PS3 or 360)~

[silv]

I'm in the minority here, but I felt bad about a lot of my actions in GTA3. I'd just be driving around the city, accidentally run someone over, and immediately feel a twinge of guilt. I'm clearly not the target audience for any GTA game.

I may empathize with digital people far too easily.

I had a really hard time getting 75% renegade in Mass Effect. I really felt like a terrible person. I think that is actually what turned me off from the game and playing through another time to get more achievements achievements.

[Loganrapp]

How is it that in a three-page thread about game narratives and art that Bioshock has only been mentioned once?

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[chirz]

How is it that in a three-page thread about game narratives and art that Bioshock has only been mentioned once?

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Because it's about GTA4 and we've already discussed the hell out of Bioshock?

I feel bad when I hit a pedestrian and see the blood stain on the hood of my car in GTA4. It's very striking, and I regret hitting the poor fellow.

[menage]

As much as I love GTA4, I don't see why this is much different from the previous outings. Been playing for 6 hours now and it's still a very good GTA. But the rave reviews don't really reflect the feeling that I'm getting at this time, that's it's just more of the same (only with higher production values and polish). But for art or sheer materpiece, nope.

Okami or SOTC score much higher there.

[Karmakin]

The NYT article referred to GTAIV as a sort of Quintin Tarentino meets Dave Chappelle..and that's just about right. But it's more than right, that's kinda the point. That provides those outside of the geek world with some frame of reference to start from, the move forward. It feels kinda familiar, so you get drawn into the story quicker.

Take that as opposed to say The World Ends With You, which if it has any reference points, for me I'd say it's Gantz (the weird peverted ultra-violent anime/manga) mixed with Kingdom Hearts.

Yes, I realize how fucked up that is.

But with most games, the reality is that the reference points are not pop culture, but geek culture. And thus the way it is. Be it either story, or gameplay. GTAIV's references are firmly pop culture. And that's why it gets this sort of attention.

[HotCod]

Because it's about GTA4 and we've already discussed the hell out of Bioshock?

I feel bad when I hit a pedestrian and see the blood stain on the hood of my car in GTA4. It's very striking, and I regret hitting the poor fellow.

But when people are saying that gta is the best of gaming as a story telling art form is it not perfectly valid and down right imporant to bring up the fact that there are games like bioshock, soc and portal or even the witcher?

I've not played gta4 yet so i can't make a comment on it but from what i've seen and what i've been told while it's a fantastic game and a well done good story it is not in terms of a story telling art form on the same level as portal... i've just had a talk to my friend whos been playing about this very issue and that's what he said...

To me it all smacks of the fact that this is the first truly huge console game that has done story telling so well... it's a game that is reaching people who would never pick up the HL games or portal or bioshock or soc or the witcher ext ext and so every one is getting whiped up in to a fever about it...

I think we should name this "halo syndrome" given the fact that the same thing happen to halo in terms of FPS games... it was the first really big mainstream console fps and people who didn't really know about fps and so didn't realy know better hailed it as the best fps game ever made everzzzz... The problem here is that while halo didn't at all desver the level of praise it got gta 4 in a lot of ways dose... its not the best or a turning point in gameing as a story telling art form but its a damn damn good example of what games can do and seems, based on feedback, to be one of the better story telling games there is.

So in that sense you have them over inflating the value of a game beacuse of the lack of context most of the people playing it have. Which in halo just meant an ok game being made to seem god like... What we are seeing now with gta 4 is what happens when a damn good game is being over inflated.... if a ok game can be made godlike what happens when the same thing happens to a game thats very good in the first place? the answer, people talking rubbish about it like its the 2nd coming of video gameing in links like the one this topic is about

[Camel]

This is the first GTA game to make me feel bad about hitting people with my car. In past games, it was always kind of cartoonish, but it feels more realistic now. It doesn't help much that Roman's stupid car is hard to control and I end up driving over the curb all the time, after which I frantically try to avoid people. GTA IV definitely feels like a turning point for the GTA series (haven't played enough of IV yet to fully comment, though), but I don't see it as any sort of turning point for games being viewed as art or anything.

I really don't care if my games are "art," though. I only care that they are fun and that I can buy them cheaply. ;)

[Spigot]

Actually, it does. You feel kinda bad for killing most of the colossi. They're magnificent beasts, and while the buildup is amazing, after the climax, it actually makes you feel kinda empty.Those are my feelings on Shadow Of The Colossus too. It's one of the very few games that I've played where I truly felt sorry for the things I was killing, to the point that I actually felt like the bad guy, and in more than the "Mwahaha! Look at the mayhem I have wrought!" kind of cartoony villain way.

As much as I'm enjoying GTAIV, I still don't feel the same kind of guilt when I run over pedestrians or do some of the other bad deeds that I did when I'd take down a colossus in SotC.

[Mot Wakorb]

But hey, bashing a good and popular game is a great opportunity for folks to show how smart and independent they are.

This statement is as closed-minded as the other person 'misreading' your post. It has nothing to do with smarts and independence - it has everything to do with taste in a game. There are those that just aren't going to like the game, and that's fine; berating them for dislike of the game however, is not - everyone has their tastes.

As for the topic at hand - I was quite disturbed at the drunken driving part of the game. I honestly stopped and had to ask myself if it was really necessary for that to be in the game, because it almost feels like an attempt at trivializing the game. When I first walked around drunk - yes, I thought that was hilarious, but when I stepped into that car... it stopped being funny to me and threw me. Mainly because it's something I'd never want to do in real life, yet many of the things I did in the game I just did, giggled at, and condoned.

I ended up telling a friend - this game is basically an outlet for people to bring out the worst in themselves - so they weren't bringing that out for real.

[RorschachCCCLX]

One thing I have liked about this GTA is that it doesn't glamerize the Gangster life and the way of living below the law. someone mentioned it was ok to brutaly kill someone because he himself comitted a crime, if that were the case we might as well pitch the justice system and give everyone bazookas.

[roboninja]

Actually, it does. You feel kinda bad for killing most of the colossi. They're magnificent beasts, and while the buildup is amazing, after the climax, it actually makes you feel kinda empty.

...like masturbation, really.

Umm, I think you are doing it wrong ;)

I need to play both GTA IV and Shadow of the Colossus, but since I have yet to play either, I cannot really comment on the "genious".

[menage]

As for the topic at hand - I was quite disturbed at the drunken driving part of the game. I honestly stopped and had to ask myself if it was really necessary for that to be in the game, because it almost feels like an attempt at trivializing the game. When I first walked around drunk - yes, I thought that was hilarious, but when I stepped into that car... it stopped being funny to me and threw me. Mainly because it's something I'd never want to do in real life, yet many of the things I did in the game I just did, giggled at, and condoned.

I ended up telling a friend - this game is basically an outlet for people to bring out the worst in themselves - so they weren't bringing that out for real.

So the drunk driving really put you off that much? With all the shit you can do in this game I fail to see what's so disturbing about that. I found the execution move far more disturbing for instance. But even that didn't have that much effect seeing as the grapics still aren''t that realistic.

It's not like I ever wanted to drive drunk, but it would seem kinda stupid for it not to be in the game when you do have the ability to get drunk. You can always call a cab as well.

[BigJonno]

How is it that in a three-page thread about game narratives and art that Bioshock has only been mentioned once?

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Possibly because listening to journals in a painfully linear remake of a ten year old game isn't anything worth mentioning.

[SacredWeasel]

I really think alot of people are missing the point. People are comparing GTA4 to SotC, while these 2 are completely different games. GTA isn't about making you feel regret about every character that you kill.

GTA4 is about creating a world, a city and telling a story in this city. Even somebody like me, who has never been to New York, instantly recognizes locations, buildings. The city feels alive, people curse at you if you park your car right in front of them, people will swerve to avoid your crazy driving, police will blockade areas and search for you on foot if need be. The cellphone system, the freaking internet (even though I'm still unsure about how usefull it is in the game), just the whole feel of the city is just so goddamn good. To quote Tycho: they haven't just simulated the physical city, they've simulated its culture with more sophistication than they've ever brought to bear.

Now the story. Let's make one thing clear first, when it comes to games I have little to no conscience nor do I feel much emotion. Only the really great games, BG2 (never played the first one), planescape, deus ex, mafia etc etc made me feel something, be it regret, hatred or whatever. GTA4 is another of these games that somehow managed to make me feel sorry for destroying someone's life, despite the fact that I was simply following the story, without any real control over what happens.

And all of this while still maintaining that classic, dry sarcastic humor that is just a part of GTA. Again, like emotions, making me actually laugh out loud (intentionally) is a pretty good accomplishment for a game, putting GTA4 is rank with such games as Giants: Citizen Kabuto, Portal and the lucasarts adventure games.

Any and all flaws in GTA4 are to me, minor or faults more of the hardware than the game. I've only once noticed any pop in, did notice the fact that while driving you suddenly see alot of the same cars (all though I didn't notice this until somebody mentioned it, at which point it became pretty damn apparent :( ). The cover system I'm still not 100% convinced about. Sometimes it works flawlessly, other times it's annoying. But is this because the system is flawed or because I'm doing something wrong? I'm not sure yet. The driving controls, to me at least, feel realistic. Maybe it's just the fact that I have literally 12 hours experience in driving cars, but to me it makes sense. You need to adjust your speed to the corner, sometimes you have to break, othertimes just telling go of the right trigger is enough.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, but, personally I feel like GTA4 is really one of the greats. Something that can't be said for GTA3/VC/SA. This is also one of those games that is just hard to compare to anything else (except maybe other open world type games, in which case there's just no doubt which is the best).

[Telefrog]

As for the topic at hand - I was quite disturbed at the drunken driving part of the game. I honestly stopped and had to ask myself if it was really necessary for that to be in the game, because it almost feels like an attempt at trivializing the game. When I first walked around drunk - yes, I thought that was hilarious, but when I stepped into that car... it stopped being funny to me and threw me. Mainly because it's something I'd never want to do in real life, yet many of the things I did in the game I just did, giggled at, and condoned.

As terrible as this sounds I was looking forward to the drunk driving part of the game because I'd heard so much about it. When the sequence came up, I found that walking around was so difficult, it intimidated me out of driving. I thought that if walking was this tough, there's no way I'd be able to drive and evade the cops if I got into trouble. I actually spent my drunk time staggering around on the sidewalk until it wore off.

In the end, GTA IV did actually teach me something.

Now, that's not to say that GTA IV is the end all, be all of gaming narrative. Niko may be more sympathetic, but he still makes choices away from your control that most decent human beings would just outright refuse. Is it art? I don't know, but it's damn fun and the game is very easy to get into.

[GodFather]

I think everyone got sucked into the hype machine with GTA IV. I cant believe how good the reviews have been and after playing it so far find it alot of fun, but nowhere near a 10.

It is interesting though to think of what would call a masterpiece. In my eyes I have played only one game in my life that really was a masterpiece of its time and that would be the original "Doom". When that came out in '93 it would mesmorize you compared to the other games and technology that was out at the time..

[TheFlyingOrc]

yeah, it's a turning point. a turning point in which other developers have to get off their lazy asses in order to match something so technically impressive. rockstar has finally perfected GTA.

Do you put things in categories that are not "best thing ever" and "absolutely sucks"?

[Mot Wakorb]

So the drunk driving really put you off that much? With all the shit you can do in this game I fail to see what's so disturbing about that. I found the execution move far more disturbing for instance. But even that didn't have that much effect seeing as the grapics still aren''t that realistic.

It's not like I ever wanted to drive drunk, but it would seem kinda stupid for it not to be in the game when you do have the ability to get drunk. You can always call a cab as well.

I'm not going to say it put me off, because I'm still playing it. What I am saying is I was quite disturbed by the fact that I never thought once about *NOT* getting in that car while drunk. I just went ahead and did it. I don't know about the whole "blurring the lines of reality" all that, but it really threw me that I just didn't think about it.

As terrible as this sounds I was looking forward to the drunk driving part of the game because I'd heard so much about it. When the sequence came up, I found that walking around was so difficult, it intimidated me out of driving. I thought that if walking was this tough, there's no way I'd be able to drive and evade the cops if I got into trouble. I actually spent my drunk time staggering around on the sidewalk until it wore off.

In the end, GTA IV did actually teach me something.

Now, that's not to say that GTA IV is the end all, be all of gaming narrative. Niko may be more sympathetic, but he still makes choices away from your control that most decent human beings would just outright refuse. Is it art? I don't know, but it's damn fun and the game is very easy to get into.

And that's good - like I was mentioning earlier in this post... I didn't have the same reaction, I just got in and started driving. My curiosity is just on the blurring of the lines... being from Wisconsin, there's far too much of the drunken driving and injury due to it, and in-game... I ended up being no different than people IRL - I just got in and went happily on my way.

[SacredWeasel]

I'm not going to say it put me off, because I'm still playing it. What I am saying is I was quite disturbed by the fact that I never thought once about *NOT* getting in that car while drunk. I just went ahead and did it. I don't know about the whole "blurring the lines of reality" all that, but it really threw me that I just didn't think about it.


Yeah, but, how often do you stop to pause and think about it before you shoot somebody in a game? It's funny how something like drunk driving can have such an impact compared to shooting somebody in the face. I guess the reality is that drunk driving happens all the time, while seeing somebody get shot, or shooting somebody yourself, is something that most people haven't experienced and aren't effected as much because of that...

[Voodoo]

The minute I went took my date to a Vaudeville show, I knew I was playing a masterpiece. Not only did I take her there, I actually got to WATCH IT. Rockstar did a magnificent job with GTA 4.

[Mot Wakorb]

Yeah, but, how often do you stop to pause and think about it before you shoot somebody in a game? It's funny how something like drunk driving can have such an impact compared to shooting somebody in the face. I guess the reality is that drunk driving happens all the time, while seeing somebody get shot, or shooting somebody yourself, is something that most people haven't experienced and aren't effected as much because of that...

I think that's exactly it... if I'm playing CoD4, or Halo - I just shoot, that's the point. In this, it's kind of the same, bad vs. good, shooting people because they're shooting at me, but getting behind the wheel, I dunno, it just threw me.

[H.Bogard]

I find it pretty transparent how the label of genius is tested on new products. It proves to me that this kind of story is purely banking on GTA's fresh popularity. You want turning point? You want masterpiece? Look up something like Shadow of the Colossus. Unfortunately though, the mainstream consumer would make no connections with such a title. GTA4 is a great game. Phenomenally genius and a true step forward in our industry? No. Greatest game ever? Not even close. It's a great game, nothing more. That's just me though.

Funny the fact that they don't even know of SotC's existence... or any game that'd truely deserve this praise, like Planescape: Torment.

[agentgray]

Hm. I'm getting the impression that this game does not deserve all the "hype-review" perfect scores it got.

Wouldn't a perfect score reflect, well, a perfect game?

[Spigot]

Hm. I'm getting the impression that this game does not deserve all the "hype-review" perfect scores it got.

Wouldn't a perfect score reflect, well, a perfect game?Not necessarily. Most places will give perfect scores to a game that does have flaws when the flaws are so greatly outweighed by the sheer amount of awesome that it doesn't matter.

I wouldn't argue that GTA IV is the perfect game to end all games... that said, I think that you have to really start nit-picking or be absolutely jaded by games not to be impressed by this thing.

[SacredWeasel]

Hm. I'm getting the impression that this game does not deserve all the "hype-review" perfect scores it got.

Wouldn't a perfect score reflect, well, a perfect game?

Yeah, but is a perfect game possible? Is a perfect song possible? Is a perfect movie possible? I think we all know the answer to those questions. GTA4 does deserve the hype though. It is really a very good game

[BitterCupOJoe]

Because it's about GTA4 and we've already discussed the hell out of Bioshock?

I feel bad when I hit a pedestrian and see the blood stain on the hood of my car in GTA4. It's very striking, and I regret hitting the poor fellow.

That, right there, was the point where it gelled for me. I thought it was a good GTA game before that, and I thought the writing, if uneven, was very good, particularly the stuff like when Nico and Mikhail's wife are talking about their lives back in the old country. But the thing that really made me look at the game in a whole new light was when, after going out with Roman for a game of darts, I accidentally hit a pedestrian. I didn't think anything of it at first; hey, it's GTA, that happens, right? But then, when I pulled up to Roman's place to drop him off, I saw a red smear on the front of my car. Not a huge one, but one that was unmistakably blood from the unfortunate pedestrian I had hit earlier.

Since then, if I haven't been running from the cops or chasing someone, I've been much more careful than I would have been in a previous GTA game. It's silly, of course; they're just bits in a simulation. But still, it affected me enough to actually change my behavior without directly punishing or rewarding me. Is it art? Maybe not, but that's close enough for me.

[Kelegacy]

I'm really digging GTA IV, but I just haven't got used to the controls yet. Driving isn't as easy as it was when in the past few games. Chasing Darden in that early mission made me fail because I just couldn't maneuver. I used to use the handbrake generously in GTA games, and with much skill, but now it seems whenever I use it I wind up in a crash. And the regular brakes are fairly unresponsive, especially for turns. But I think I'll master them eventually.

The other thing I've noticed is the color palette. I think it definitely looks more realistic, gritty and gray, but the past GTA games had a certain amount of vibrancy and color. I sort of miss that. The game also looks fairly "soft", especially the backdrop of the city scapes and shadows around town.

I haven't messed around with the game enough yet to really get a good grip on it (damn you work!...and girlfriend!) but this weekend should be an entirely different story. What I have accomplished has been lots of fun, however. Though I have found myself being more of a nice guy than usual...except for the occassional stabbing I've done--hey, it was self defense!

Last night I walked up on stage in the strip club following a lap dance and the place went crazy. Bitches screaming and running, Roman yelling for us to leave, security guards coming after us. I booked it out of there only to be arrested further down the road by some idiot driving maneuvers. Great times.

[morose]

I find GTA4 to be the best of the series, and probably the best game I've played since Mass Effect (which was also a brilliant narrative). I've always had issues with just running people over in the GTA games. Even in Vice City, where (let's face it) Vercetti is a complete asshole. :) But yes, all the more so now in 4. I've always chosen to avoid killing wherever possible since I tend to play through games the first time with my character exhibiting closer to my real life values. Sometimes I can't even bring myself to play through them a second time as an "evil" character (as in Mass Effect), so I'm glad I've got a video game sociopath for a roommate who will take up that mantle for me and I still get to see those parts of the story at least. ;)

I guess for me, I view video games with story and choices as closer to acting than I do watching a movie. Kind of an "in between" medium I guess. So I approach the characters much like I would a screen play. The words are usually there, but what are you going to bring of yourself to the performance?

Oh, and as for the driving... I absolutely hated it the first day, warmed a bit the second, and now I dig it. Not sure what changed... if I just finally started getting intuitive about the physics or what. But now I'm a huge fan of the driving and appreciate the added realism/difficulty/skill involved.

[Telefrog]

Hm. I'm getting the impression that this game does not deserve all the "hype-review" perfect scores it got.

Wouldn't a perfect score reflect, well, a perfect game?

I am so sick of seeing this sentiment on various message boards.

Is a five star eatery "perfect"? Is a thumbs up movie "perfect"? Is there no room for any artistic license in a game? I don't understand the need for some people to hold videogames to some impossible review standard.

In my estimation, GTA IV earns an easy 10/10 even without all the high-minded blather about its artistic merit and the projection of regret onto the gamer. It's a really, really good game backed by some fun mechanics, a compelling narrative, and some very impressive tech. Isn't that enough?

[Kweli]

Driving controls are way better in this game...
Anyone complaining about them hasnt mastered them yet....

Its more realistic, you need to brake BEFORE the turn, not during the turn...
If you played any type of car simulator this shouldnt be something new... (although im not saying its a simulator.. im just saying its more realistic)

And you shouldnt have to use ebrake on every turn... your not braking enough

[Spigot]

Agreed about the driving mechanics. It's just so different from the other games in the series.

I keep hitting X to e-brake and end up turning on my high-beams just in time to crash into the wall :)

[Savok]

Is a perfect song possible?
It's been done, it's called Stairway to Heaven.

[Spigot]

Didn't you see the sign?

NO STAIRWAY!

[Kelegacy]

Agreed about the driving mechanics. It's just so different from the other games in the series.

I keep hitting X to e-brake and end up turning on my high-beams just in time to crash into the wall :)

I always figured GTA to be more arcadey than Gran Turismo. I used to be able to fly down narrow streets without worrying about hitting or clipping anyone. Now, it being more realistic, I wind up on my roof or sliding off the road and facing the wrong way. I haven't had any high-star chases by the cops yet, but I am betting I will fail a LOT of those missions or get arrested before I really master the controls.

[Karmakin]

Do you put things in categories that are not "best thing ever" and "absolutely sucks"?

Why would he? It's his name. It's what he does.

[NationalKato]

Is this the line for the backlash? ;)

[Kweli]

I always figured GTA to be more arcadey than Gran Turismo. I used to be able to fly down narrow streets without worrying about hitting or clipping anyone. Now, it being more realistic, I wind up on my roof or sliding off the road and facing the wrong way. I haven't had any high-star chases by the cops yet, but I am betting I will fail a LOT of those missions or get arrested before I really master the controls.

I think this is the theme of the whole game.... more realism

Need to choose your getaway car wisely because a crappy car will get you caught

[Savok]

Didn't you see the sign?

NO STAIRWAY!
Fuck you old man!

Now I'm gonna play Smoke on the Water.

[EternalGamer]

I like the game so far, but having played an hour, this narrative is no work of art. It would pale in comparison to even the worst episode of the Sopranos. It's still a B-grade script, it is just delivered a little better through voice acting. It seems we are so used to voice acting where the the voice talents can't even read the scripts competently that, when someone actully bothers to read fluidly and throw a little emoting in, people go crazy.

The game itself is warming on me. But I spend all day teaching great narratives. GTA is not a great narrative. It is not even a good one. Maybe it is a good one in comparison to other videogame games but that is like saying a daytime soap opera is "good" compared to the other soaps.

[Baron Samedi]

Whatever happened to Bioshock?

[Kelegacy]

I like the game so far, but having played an hour, this narrative is no work of art. It would pale in comparison to even the worst episode of the Sopranos. It's still a B-grade script, it is just delivered a little better through voice acting. It seems we are so used to voice acting where the the voice talents can't even read the scripts competently that, when someone actully bothers to read fluidly and throw a little emoting in, people go crazy.

The game itself is warming on me. But I spend all day teaching great narratives. GTA is not a great narrative. It is not evena good one. Maybe it is a good one in comparison to other videogame games but that is like saying a daytime soap opera is "good" compared to the other soap operas.

But you can't come up with that decision after only an hour. There is little narrative in the first hour. I haven't got very far either, but I haven't come to any conclusions whatsoever. Something about the controls and look of GTA being different than past GTAs, but nothing concrete just yet.

It is, however, a standard GTA style beginning. There is a reason for coming to a new place, or back home. GTA III had you freed from a prison vehicle merely by coincidence, Vice City has Vercetti coming south to help with the mob (or something, can't quite remember his reason) San Andreas had Carl's mother's funeral. GTAIV has a cousin luring Niko there with false dreams of a better life.

[Kweli]

I like the game so far, but having played an hour, this narrative is no work of art. It would pale in comparison to even the worst episode of the Sopranos.

What hell? After only a hour you seem to have a strong understanding of the game... It took me a good 3-4 hours before the game even unraveled

Arent you still in the "training" part of the game in the first hour?

[menage]

I like the game so far, but having played an hour, this narrative is no work of art. It would pale in comparison to even the worst episode of the Sopranos. It's still a B-grade script, it is just delivered a little better through voice acting. It seems we are so used to voice acting where the the voice talents can't even read the scripts competently that, when someone actully bothers to read fluidly and throw a little emoting in, people go crazy.

The game itself is warming on me. But I spend all day teaching great narratives. GTA is not a great narrative. It is not evena good one. Maybe it is a good one in comparison to other videogame games but that is like saying a daytime soap opera is "good" compared to the other soap operas.

Have to agree. The voice acting is top notch. But all this Oscar worthy praise is a load of bull. It's funny, harsh and sometimes a bit shocking. But it's still a fetch mission, complete mission, move up a ladder narative. Maybe it will change when I hit Nico's past a but more. But oscar movies are great all the way through, not after 20 hours. It's still great, but Oscarworthy?

I'm enjoying the game immensly, but I don't see the perfect 10s logic. It's awesome, looks great, sounds great, still has some flawed mechanics. It's not fundamentaly different than say GTA 3 or it's sequels. It doesn't do anything to pull it out of it's heritage like Resi 4 or Metroid Prime. It's really good, but like Halo 3 it's more perfecting a really good game instead of adding something that the new machines could have done. Next to the online multi off course. It's like when LOTR ROTK got an Oscar. The first one was more worthy because it stunned me in it's approach. But eventually part 3 received it for the whole bunch.

Maybe I'm basing it too much on the solo game though. Haven't gone online with it yet. Might make a difference.

[Kelegacy]

I haven't gone online yet either, though I've gotten invites. Was going to do it last night, a quick match, but I didn't want to join a session just to leave a few minutes later for bed. I tried to join a ranked match but apparently I couldn't...or rather, I had to set up my own. Didn't see an option to join one already in progress.

[EternalGamer]

But you can't come up with that decision after only an hour. There is little narrative in the first hour. I haven't got very far either, but I haven't come to any conclusions whatsoever. Something about the controls and look of GTA being different than past GTAs, but nothing concrete just yet.

It is, however, a standard GTA style beginning. There is a reason for coming to a new place, or back home. GTA III had you freed from a prison vehicle merely by coincidence, Vice City has Vercetti coming south to help with the mob (or something, can't quite remember his reason) San Andreas had Carl's mother's funeral. GTAIV has a cousin luring Niko there with false dreams of a better life.

Well, that is why I put the caveat on it of saying I only played an hour. And that is why I compared it to an hour long episode of the Sopranos (because I played an hour of the game). So far the jokes are very stilted as is the characterization. Most of it is very bare bones and just being used as a device to get a person from point A to point B. At no point did I feel like the characters were having a geniune conversation or that they were offering unique perspectives in subtle ways based on their own personality. There are plenty of jokes about balls and tits and exchanges of threats to beat the shit out of people, but none of them even sound natural or demonstrative of character.

When I read a good novel, I sure as hell can tell the writer has talent in the first 50 pages. When I watch a film, I know in the first 10 minutes. I think an hour of gameplay is enough to at least get a taste for the quality of the narrative. Perhaps it is unbalanced and it gets a lot better, but until I see it, I'll remain skeptical.

[Kweli]

When I read a good novel, I sure as hell can tell the writer has talent in the first 50 pages. When I watch a film, I know in the first 10 minutes. I think an hour of gameplay is enough to at least get a taste for the quality of the narrative. Perhaps it is unbalanced and it gets a lot better, but until I see it, I'll remain skeptical.

Its still premature...

Using your guideline:
1 Hour in a 40 Hour game is equal to the first 12 pages of a 500 page book

[EternalGamer]

It's not fundamentaly different than say GTA 3 or it's sequels. It doesn't do anything to pull it out of it's heritage like Resi 4 or Metroid Prime. It's really good, but like Halo 3 it's more perfecting a really good game instead of adding something that the new machines could have done.


That is exactly my estimation of it so far. It immediately felt like GTA, not some profound paradigm shift. I appreciate the improvements, but it certainly doesn't seem like some grand genius re-imagining. But I'm still withholding final judgement and I'll be happy to acknowledge it if the game does somehow dramatically improve.

[Wyrm]

I have never felt during a game like I did during Shadow of the Colossus. It made me realize that I could become emotionally attached to a fucking horse that doesn't say or do anything other than get you from point "A" to point "B" throughout the game.

But more than that, it showed me that a game doesn't need long, stupidly detailed cut scenes or ridiculous back story, or even a huge cast of characters. The bare minimum is what keeps Shadow of the Colossus moving forward, and it's one of the best games I've ever had the pleasure of placing in a game system.

Sorry for the OT, but the first few posts made me remember it.

As for GTA, I suppose I'm actually going to have to get it. I'm not a GTA guy (the last one I actually cared to play through was Vice City), but I've had my fun with them in the past. I keep hearing this one is going to descend from heaven and jerk me and all my friends off, so I guess I ought to go pick it up.

[Kamalot]

I always figured GTA to be more arcadey than Gran Turismo. I used to be able to fly down narrow streets without worrying about hitting or clipping anyone. Now, it being more realistic, I wind up on my roof or sliding off the road and facing the wrong way. I haven't had any high-star chases by the cops yet, but I am betting I will fail a LOT of those missions or get arrested before I really master the controls.

I'm also willing to bet that you don't often have these same issues when driving in real life, which makes me suspect of how 'realistic' the mechanics are in-game.

[EternalGamer]

I'm also willing to bet that you don't often have these same issues when driving in real life, which makes me suspect of how 'realistic' the mechanics are in-game.

I imagine we all would if we drove in real life like we did in Grand Theft Auto. But I don't care about realistic driving mechanics that much. This is not a realistic game in its gun play (if it did it would be much slower, harder, and not nearly as much fun). I don't need realistic driving controls. I would much rather play a GTA game where I can hop into 90 degree turns at 120 miles an hour like some crazy go kart racer.

[Savok]

I like the game so far, but having played an hour, this narrative is no work of art. It would pale in comparison to even the worst episode of the Sopranos. It's still a B-grade script, it is just delivered a little better through voice acting. It seems we are so used to voice acting where the the voice talents can't even read the scripts competently that, when someone actully bothers to read fluidly and throw a little emoting in, people go crazy.

The game itself is warming on me. But I spend all day teaching great narratives. GTA is not a great narrative. It is not even a good one. Maybe it is a good one in comparison to other videogame games but that is like saying a daytime soap opera is "good" compared to the other soaps.
Your rampaging mental illness aside, the voice actors for the main characters in this game are fucking brilliant.

The ones on the radio are lacking this time around, but for Niko and Roman and the rest, brilliant. And this is coming from a voice acting snob who listens to Michael Bell saying "abhor" over and over to make himself feel tingly.

[EternalGamer]

Your rampaging mental illness aside, the voice actors for the main characters in this game are fucking brilliant.

The ones on the radio are lacking this time around, but for Niko and Roman and the rest, brilliant. And this is coming from a voice acting snob who listens to Michael Bell saying "abhor" over and over to make himself feel tingly.

Well that explains it. You think Michael Bell represents a good voice actor. I will not deny that he is good at what he does: voicing cartoons and videogame characters that are basically caricatures. He has a great voice and is a good reader. But I've never seen him read a script that requires him to actually do any real voice acting.

Anyway, I never complained about the voice work to begin with. The voice work is fine. It is the script that is banal.

[NationalKato]

I like the game so far, but having played an hour, this narrative is no work of art.

You spend all day teaching narrative and story and you're judging the game on one hour?! Whatever happened to the importance of dramatic structure? How can you judge a narrative without even getting past the Exposition?

As far as comparing it to a one-hour episode of The Sopranos, the problem there is the Sopranos is designed and written to encompass one hour. Sure, there are story arcs spanning episodes...but not in one hour.

When I watch a film, I know in the first 10 minutes.

Eh. Well, you and I have very different tastes in film, I'd imagine. 10 minutes is nothing.

[EternalGamer]

You spend all day teaching narrative and story and you're judging the game on one hour?! Whatever happend to the importance of dramatic structure? How can you judge a narrative without even getting past the Exposition?

How many times do I have indicate that it was a preliminary not a permanent judgement. However, I will say that I can tell if something is good writing in a matter of pages. Most of the time you can read the opening few sentences and know if someone is a hack.

[Savok]

Well that explains it. You think Michael Bell represents a good voice actor. I will not deny that he is good at what he does: voicing cartoons and videogame characters that are basically caricatures. He has a great voice and is a good reader. But I've never seen him read a script that requires him to actually do any real voice acting.

Anyway, I never complained about the voice work to begin with. The voice work is fine. It is the script that is banal.
The only reason to bother with Soul Reaver 2 is Bell and Templeman.

[EternalGamer]

I'll agree that I like both of their deliveries. Bell has been gifted with a fantastic voice. But even that Soul Reaver script was primarily long expositional monologues.

[Savok]

I'll agree that I like both of their deliveries. Bell has been gifted with a fantastic voice. But even that Soul Reaver script was primarily long expositional monologues.
Good god you're a joyless creature. I'm made of pure hatred and I can enjoy things more then you can.

It's inherent in your breed I suppose.

[NationalKato]

How many times do I have indicate that it was a preliminary not a permanent judgement.

Well, give us all a bit of a break. You started off very adamant and assured about it not even being as good as the worst Sopranos episode. Then you talked about how you spend all day teaching it (to validate your opinion above others?) and that it's not even a good narrative.

All from one hour. So please, give us a little bit of a break if we question your standards. You're still playing in the part of the game that acts as a pseudo-tutorial, so they're handholding you and not delving into the meatier plotlines yet. I'm not doubting the veracity of your points, but you should also not doubt ours. :)

[Savok]

The story in San Andreas never picked up until you left Los Santos.

Just saying.

[BitterCupOJoe]

Good god you're a joyless creature. I'm made of pure hatred and I can enjoy things more then you can.

It's inherent in your breed I suppose.

Yes, "I have a difference of opinion," means, "I can take no joy in anything." Well done, sir. I disagree with the guy on several points, but don't be a dick about it.

[EternalGamer]

Well, give us all a bit of a break. You started off very adamant and assured about it not even being as good as the worst Sopranos episode. Then you talked about how you spend all day teaching it (to validate your opinion above others?) and that it's not even a good narrative.

All from one hour. So please, give us a little bit of a break if we question your standards. You're still playing in the part of the game that acts as a pseudo-tutorial, so they're handholding you and not delving into the meatier plotlines yet. I'm not doubting the veracity of your points, but you should also not doubt ours. :)

I am guilty of coming off a little too strongly. But that is also because I am tired of people who never actually read great literature comparing videogames to great literature. It is a crime that is committed far too often. I do not believe that art is in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe a Superman comic is as good as Shakespeare's King Lear.

So, my apologies. I know not everyone who is praising this game falls into that category of having such bad judgement. But I have seen this phenomenon occur far too often and it annoys me. I think it gives videogames and who play them a bad image. It makes both us and our hobby look even more unintelligent when people praise shit as if it were cavier simply because they don't know the difference.

I am probably guilty of responding more to this particular phenomena in my post than I was responding specifically to GTA 4 and its merits. However, I do stand by the idea that, from what I have seen thus far (which again, I know is pretty limited), I am skeptical that this game's narrative is as transcendental as it is being described. At the very least, it's not something that is immediately evident.

[Savok]

I do not believe that art is in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe a Superman comic is as good as Shakespeare's King Lear.
Maybe not Superman, but Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen (http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2007/04/mind-shattering-madness-of-jimmy-olsen_09.html) would disagree.

[GargantulaKon]

Depends on your PS3. I have a 20 gig so it plays just fine. It should play just the same on the 60 gigger. Won't play at all on the 40 gig unit, and I'm not certain about the quality on the 80 gig.

Yea! Someone will pick up SotC because of me! It is seriously one game that everyone should play.

Edit: I just used the Backwards Compatibility Checklist (http://www.us.playstation.com/Support/CompatibleStatus) on the Playstation site and found that Shadow of the Colossus has, "No major problems for this title." Not sure what the difference is between major and minor problems, but it should be playable on an 80 gig system.

Do not forget about ICO too! It works on the both the 60GB and 80GB PS3s.

[MSUStud911]

I completely agree that the rampaging in this game takes on a whole other tone than it did in any previous GTA game. I find myself toeing the line of non-violence much more closely because it.

[drakkarim]

Combined with the universally rave reviews that GTA IV has been recieving, have we reached the point where gaming has truly reached the point of masterpiece? Is this the one that might finally break Roger Ebert's back with an acknowledgment that games might just be art? The Slate author suggest that this might just be the tipping point where we reach the point that it's not just about mindless killing anymore.

GTA and masterpiece in the same sentence will always be an oxymoron to me, unless the latter is preceded by a qualifying 'not'.

personally i have been having that feeling of "not about mindless killing" for years, everytime i play a game where i can kill a nazi.

[Kelegacy]

I completely agree that the rampaging in this game takes on a whole other tone than it did in any previous GTA game. I find myself toeing the line of non-violence much more closely because it.
It's very strange, and I'm the same way. In past GTA games, I might be a jerk, as I'm a good, peaceful guy in real life and games are my outlet. But in GTAIV...I don't know. I actually have SWERVED to go around pedestrians! WTF is up with that?

[Lobster Mobster]

I'm not one of those haters, but I have yet to see how GTA4 is the second coming. Am I wrong for not thinking it's the best thing ever?

[violentp]

I'm not one of those haters, but I have yet to see how GTA4 is the second coming. Am I wrong for not thinking it's the best thing ever?

No. In fact, the only thing I find about GTA4 to be great is the story evolution.

[Spigot]

The story in San Andreas never picked up until you left Los Santos.

Just saying.Wait... WHAT?

I really, really hope you're joking.

And as for GTA4 not being something new, I never expected it to be. I figured it was basically Rockstar North taking all of their years of experience and polishing and refining the crap out of the GTA formula and also bringing the horsepower of the 360/PS3 to bear on the series.

Where was it ever promised that we were going to get something brand new that we'd never seen before? Some of the mechanics of the game are different and there is the new animation engine, but other than that, I can't remember there being any major promises (outside of the multiplayer) of amazing new things.

[Savok]

Wait... WHAT?

I really, really hope you're joking.
Oh come on, "black gangsta experiences culture shock a hundred different ways" was hilarious... well fuck you then, The Truth was awesome :p

[Spigot]

Oh come on, "black gangsta experiences culture shock a hundred different ways" was hilarious... well fuck you then, The Truth was awesome :pWoops. Sorry. I thought you wrote that the story didn't pick up after you left Los Santos (ie. the best stuff is the gang-bangin' at the beginning of the game).

I wholeheartedly agree that everything that happened after you got out of Los Santos was amazing.

[Telefrog]

I am guilty of coming off a little too strongly. But that is also because I am tired of people who never actually read great literature comparing videogames to great literature. It is a crime that is committed far too often. I do not believe that art is in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe a Superman comic is as good as Shakespeare's King Lear.

So, my apologies. I know not everyone who is praising this game falls into that category of having such bad judgement. But I have seen this phenomenon occur far too often and it annoys me. I think it gives videogames and who play them a bad image. It makes both us and our hobby look even more unintelligent when people praise shit as if it were cavier simply because they don't know the difference.


The two bolded sentences in your statements give me a very good indication of what your main issue is here.

You seem to be one of the elitist snobs that feels he can determine the standards of true art for everyone.

[DaXIthR]

Whatever happened to Bioshock?

The Messiah is still coming, right?

[Variable Gear]

It's not art unless EternalGamer says so.

[BlackPete]

But that is also because I am tired of people who never actually read great literature comparing videogames to great literature. It is a crime that is committed far too often. I do not believe that art is in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe a Superman comic is as good as Shakespeare's King Lear.

GTA4 is no Shakespeare, and I doubt anyone is saying that (aside from the over-glorifying media reviews, anyway...) But compared to other games, its literature is light years ahead.

Seeing people praising the story makes me happy because:

a) The more fuss is made about a good story, the more developers will notice and pick up on this and...
b) Hopefully new games will come out with better stories now that the bar's been raised.

I don't see GTA4 as a brilliant piece of literature. I see it as a push for better literature in video games. That's something worth applauding.

[EternalGamer]

The two bolded sentences in your statements give me a very good indication of what your main issue is here.

You seem to be one of the elitist snobs that feels he can determine the standards of true art for everyone.


Guilty and proud of it. Anti-intellectualism is the great enemy of culture, especially American culture. I believe in the value of higher pleasures both for their own sake and for the betterment of the society.

[Stinking Kevin]

I've made this spiel many times before, but not ever here at EvAv I don't think.

There are only two working definitions of "art."

1.) Art is anything presented for appreciation as art.

2.) Art is anything that current cultural authorities -- patrons, critics, and other "cultural elite" -- decide to call art.

It seems too simple, I know, but I've been thinking on this stuff for years and I'm pretty sure that's all there is to it. You can't really break it down or built it up any further.

According to the first definition, games have been art all along, to the extent that their images, sounds, and movement patterns have been presented for the purpose of being aesthetically appreciated.

According to the second definition, games are not quite "art" yet, but movies were never "art" before sometime in the middle of the 20th century, and novels weren't "art" until sometime after the Renaissance.

I think both definitions are valid, but each has its place.

To whatever extent you believe that games need to be considered "art" by the mainstream and the movers and shakers in high society, you're waiting for Ebert to pass on and for a new generation of patrons and critics to take charge of the mainstream's mindset on what is and is not fashionable.

To whatever extent you've aesthetically appreciated a game's graphics, sound, story, or action, however, you already know that games are art, regardless of what a bunch of rich, old, non-gamer commentators and critics say.

No matter what definition you choose, however, I think claiming that one art form is inherently superior to another betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how art (or at least aesthetic appreciation) works. You are not telling us anything about the art form, only about your own personal preferences and frames of reference.

Art must be self-contained, regardless of its constituent parts or external references. Commenting on the "literature" in a video game is sort of like commenting on the voice acting in a novel.

[Tel Prydain]

That is exactly my estimation of it so far. It immediately felt like GTA, not some profound paradigm shift. I appreciate the improvements, but it certainly doesn't seem like some grand genius re-imagining. But I'm still withholding final judgement and I'll be happy to acknowledge it if the game does somehow dramatically improve.

I’ll just say that the best moments for me so far are the mini-conversations during the ‘friendship’ missions. There have been a few that were really good.

[Kelegacy]

Guilty and proud of it. Anti-intellectualism is the great enemy of culture, especially American culture. I believe in the value of higher pleasures both for their own sake and for the betterment of the society.

I am actually happy to see you say that. That's a sentiment I need to save somewhere, for when the "elitist" labeling comes up again.

[Khash]

I could never get into GTA3. The splender of it wore of quickly and all I was left with were bad controls and boring missions. And after 10 hours of GTAIV I'm already kind of over it.

[Savok]

Guilty and proud of it. Anti-intellectualism is the great enemy of culture, especially American culture. I believe in the value of higher pleasures both for their own sake and for the betterment of the society.
Behold the left in all its glory, "we know what's best for you".

[Spigot]

I could never get into GTA3. The splender of it wore of quickly and all I was left with were bad controls and boring missions. And after 10 hours of GTAIV I'm already kind of over it.I always have a cycle that I seem to go through with a GTA game. I get completely consumed by it for about a week. Then I run into a mission where I basically slam into a brick wall of difficultly/frustration (usually involving remote control vehicles) and I end up putting the game on the shelf for a bit.

Eventually I come back, make it past the part I was stuck in and then focus on the game to the ending.

This happened with GTA 3, Vice City and San Andreas, yet I loved them all. I haven't gotten to that point yet in GTA IV, but we'll see if it happens or not. The fact that there isn't really much on the horizon helps.

Just to throw my hat in the ring on the writing/narrative debate, I have really enjoyed the conversations that Niko has while doing the social things.

Dan, how have your impressions of the narrative held up over additional playtime? And if you are having problems with it, care go give examples? I'm curious about what has been rubbing you the wrong way :)

[BlackPete]

Guilty and proud of it. Anti-intellectualism is the great enemy of culture, especially American culture. I believe in the value of higher pleasures both for their own sake and for the betterment of the society.

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? You're on the losing side, man.

[carnage11]

Dood! Idiocracy iz da futcher!


Seriously, I would not be surprised if that's how it turns out.:p

[morose]

Guilty and proud of it. Anti-intellectualism is the great enemy of culture, especially American culture. I believe in the value of higher pleasures both for their own sake and for the betterment of the society.

Just because someone holds a Relativist view of art doesn't mean they are anti-intellectual. I also think the concept of "higher pleasures" being of intrinsically more value than "simple pleasures" (either personally or to culture as a whole) is rubbish.

[menage]

I'm actually a bit pissed off at all the swearing in the game. And I'm one to swear when it suits me. F-you's, a-holes and all the titty talk did make it feel forced at the start. I understand why, but Roman's talk about hot bitches and titties really annoy's me, maybe it's my age but it seems to be there because they can, and the overkill on it doesn't really make it stronger. It doesn't build a character only tells us that this game is "mature" (I found it juvenile at times, I don't know, maybe that was their angle all the time)

This does take more of a backseat later on, but I was almost embarressed to play the first couple of hours with my girlfriend.

[51|RandoM]

I'm actually a bit pissed off at all the swearing in the game. And I'm one to swear when it suits me. F-you's, a-holes and all the titty talk did make it feel forced at the start. I understand why, but Roman's talk about hot bitches and titties really annoy's me, maybe it's my age but it seems to be there because they can, and the overkill on it doesn't really make it stronger. It doesn't build a character only tells us that this game is "mature" (I found it juvenile at times, I don't know, maybe that was their angle all the time)

This does take more of a backseat later on, but I was almost embarressed to play the first couple of hours with my girlfriend.

...but the portrayal of these characters is not an inaccurate one. There are people like this, plenty of them. While you and I would not normally choose to hang out with these people, Nico Bellic(sp?) does not have that choice, and he makes it quite obvious how annoying he finds their juvenile banter.

I really don't think this a case of "fuck" solely for "fuck's sake". ;)

[Spigot]

...but the portrayal of these characters is not an inaccurate one. There are people like this, plenty of them. While you and I would not normally choose to hang out with these people, Nico Bellic(sp?) does not have that choice, and he makes it quite obvious how annoying he finds their juvenile banter.

I really don't think this a case of "fuck" solely for "fuck's sake". ;)Exactly. I was kind of put off by just how vulgar the language was at the beginning but it's nice to see that Nico thinks that they're just as silly for talking like that as I do. The rest of the swearing and language in the game is fine but it was kind of shocking to have Roman talking the way he did right off the bat.

Of course, during that time I was sitting there imagining the looks on the faces of the parents who had bought this game for their 7-year-old kids at EB during the midnight launch and chortling at their (hopefully) shocked reaction. Stupid parents.

If everyone talked like Roman, I'd probably have a bigger problem with the language as gratuitous swearing gets really old, really fast. After spending more time with him and Nico and the rest of the crew, he's more of an abberation and it's funny to see Nico treat him as such :)

[NationalKato]

Of course, during that time I was sitting there imagining the looks on the faces of the parents who had bought this game for their 7-year-old kids at EB during the midnight launch and chortling at their (hopefully) shocked reaction. Stupid parents.

In my opinion, R* made the perfect choice for starting the game off with a blank screen and the sounds of S&M. Then we have the reveal. Just to make sure everyone knows within 10 seconds what kind of game this is. :)

[menage]

In my opinion, R* made the perfect choice for starting the game off with a blank screen and the sounds of S&M. Then we have the reveal. Just to make sure everyone knows within 10 seconds what kind of game this is. :)

I logged into my Japanese PSN account and played it. There was no reveal there, just a black screen. :P

Exactly. I was kind of put off by just how vulgar the language was at the beginning but it's nice to see that Nico thinks that they're just as silly for talking like that as I do. The rest of the swearing and language in the game is fine but it was kind of shocking to have Roman talking the way he did right off the bat.

Oh I agree. I'm glad the game doesn't throw that stuff at you all the time. It does get a lot better after an hour or 2. But the intro really was a bit rough. I almost doubted if I hadn't outgrown that kind of entertainment. I'm not against swearing, but ity just made me feel uncomfortable to have it shoved in your face in such a harsh way right from the start. At that time it felt pretty pointless and indeed like a "fuck" for "fuck's sake". After 3-4 hours that feeling pretty much disappeared.

[BlackPete]

Oh I agree. I'm glad the game doesn't throw that stuff at you all the time. It does get a lot better after an hour or 2. But the intro really was a bit rough. I almost doubted if I hadn't outgrown that kind of entertainment. I'm not against swearing, but ity just made me feel uncomfortable to have it shoved in your face in such a harsh way right from the start. At that time it felt pretty pointless and indeed like a "fuck" for "fuck's sake". After 3-4 hours that feeling pretty much disappeared.

When growing up, there used to be a bunch of us that'd hang together for random stuff. There was one guy who spoke EXACTLY like Roman -- constantly swearing, constantly saying how he'd like to fuck that chick over there, he'd bone her in an instant, etc, etc.

Needless to say, he was the guy I despised the most. I actually believe Roman is a "real" character because I've met people like him. It's good to see that even Nico thinks he's an idiot and called him on it a few times.

[donkeydrop]

Combined with the universally rave reviews that GTA IV has been recieving, have we reached the point where gaming has truly reached the point of masterpiece?

Masterpiece? That's like saying the novels of Mickey Spillane are masterpieces. I honestly can't imagine what the author was thinking if he considers the story to be outstanding. The fact that it even has a coherent story is a step forward for GTA, but there have been so many games with better stories. Even Kane and Lynch (poor as the game was overall) attempted to create a more interesting motivation and emotional conflict. The game Mafia is over 6 years old and has a far superior storyline and dialog.

Great game, yes, but the story doesn't show any sign of rising above the level of a pulp crime or a Harlequin romance novel.

[NationalKato]

Masterpiece? That's like saying the novels of Mickey Spillane are masterpieces. I honestly can't imagine what the author was thinking if he considers the story to be outstanding.

To be fair, a masterpiece is relative to the artist(s) creating it. To call it a 'masterpiece' would be to call this work Rockstar's best. That seems more appropriate to me.

[Goronmon]

Games SHOULD be marked down for their faults. I'd also state that a game called Grand Theft Auto should have nailed the driving controls perfectly.I don't see how this works as a rule. That basically means any complex game will receive lower scores than a simple game solely based on the fact that there are more things to potentially complain about. I find it hard to rate games by starting at a perfect score and working my way down, because there really isn't a limit to the number of complaints you can make if you want to get really picky.

[Kelegacy]

I don't see how this works as a rule. That basically means any complex game will receive lower scores than a simple game solely based on the fact that there are more things to potentially complain about. I find it hard to rate games by starting at a perfect score and working my way down, because there really isn't a limit to the number of complaints you can make if you want to get really picky.

Besides, the driving mechanics are not bad, they just take getting used to if you've ever played any past GTAs. Some cars handle poorly, like in real life, but some, like the nice sports car I have parked in my digital space right now, handle like a dream.

The driving controls don't suck, each car just has different handling. This is a good thing. And the e-brake has been changed to be a bit more realistic.

I keep forgetting the triggers aren't just regular buttons and mash on them, which causes me to spin my wheels a lot, especially after using the e-brake. I'm a dub.

[Kamalot]

I just realized that Roman is the source of Niko's whole downfall. Were I Niko, I would take Roman out, get him drunk, and kill him. Then I'd go start a nice peaceful life someplace where I didn't have to save his sorry ass from debtors or do favors for his shady/shitty 'friends'.

So I tried to do this in the game. I shot Roman. Next day, bitch called me from the hospital wanting me to come pick his sorry ass up. :(

[Goronmon]

In my opinion, R* made the perfect choice for starting the game off with a blank screen and the sounds of S&M. Then we have the reveal. Just to make sure everyone knows within 10 seconds what kind of game this is.Seriously, the first line in the game when you start it up is a guy screaming "Daddy's back, you bitches!"

[Variable Gear]

I don't see how this works as a rule. That basically means any complex game will receive lower scores than a simple game solely based on the fact that there are more things to potentially complain about.
I think that this is a perfectly acceptable criticism of games that bite off more than they can chew. Sure, open world games tend to include a wide variety of gameplay pieces - much more than the average linear game - but that does not mean that they are immune to criticism if one of those pieces is broken or doesn't live up to the standard set by the rest of the game. If it wasn't a quality part of the game, than it shouldn't have been included in the final release. To me, it's that simple.

[Goronmon]

...but that does not mean that they are immune to criticism if one of those pieces is broken or doesn't live up to the standard set by the rest of the game. If it wasn't a quality part of the game, than it shouldn't have been included in the final release. To me, it's that simple.I never said that they are immune to criticism. I just question the logic behind assessing the overall quality of a game based on the number of criticisms you can levy against it. I mean, is GTA IV a worse game than Forza 2, because the driving in GTA IV is worse than Forza 2?

[Variable Gear]

I never said that they are immune to criticism. I just question the logic behind assessing the overall quality of a game based on the number of criticisms you can levy against it. I mean, is GTA IV a worse game than Forza 2, because the driving in GTA IV is worse than Forza 2?
Sorry, I see what you are trying to say now. No, GTA IV isn't a worse game than Forza 2, despite the fact that the driving elements are worse in GTA IV. It's apples and oranges, really. GTA IV is a world simulator, while Forza 2 is a driving simulator. If Forza doesn't get the feel of driving right then it doesn't have anything, but GTA IV offers much more than driving. It is right to call out the game for it's controls and feel, but it is wise to keep in perspective all the other things the game does right.

[Spigot]

Whoever designed the pool and bowling games in GTA IV needs to be slapped. The darts are great though.

[carnage11]

Whoever designed the pool and bowling games in GTA IV needs to be slapped. The darts are great though.
I thought bowling was pretty fun, and darts was really really easy. You're right though, for all the physics in this game, the physics in pool suck bad. The ball never goes where it should.

[Tel Prydain]

Whoever designed the pool and bowling games in GTA IV needs to be slapped. The darts are great though.

But I'd still rather have them there, even if they are less then perfect.

[Spigot]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I've probably spent more time on the pool and bowling than the missions. I just don't like the way it's implemented. It's hard to aim your ball when you bowl (maybe I'm spoiled by Wii Bowling) and the pool seems nigh-impossible to discern which balls are striped and which are solid, plus the physics are funky.

For both the bowling and pool, they need to zoom the camera in a lot more so you can see things before you throw/hit the ball. The biggest problem is that they're ALMOST great... just not quite.

[BlackPete]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I've probably spent more time on the pool and bowling than the missions. I just don't like the way it's implemented. It's hard to aim your ball when you bowl (maybe I'm spoiled by Wii Bowling) and the pool seems nigh-impossible to discern which balls are striped and which are solid, plus the physics are funky.

You don't like the way they were implemented, yet you spent more time on them than the missions? :confused:

[mister_slim]

You don't like the way they were implemented, yet you spent more time on them than the missions? :confused:

He's Canadian.

[Spigot]

He's Canadian.Exactly!

It's not that I HATE the pool and bowling. It's that they are both flawed and I wish that they were better implemented. Plus my games of pool take forever to finish because it's so hard to aim :)

But darts... as easy as it is, it never gets old.

[Tel Prydain]

Darts is kinda fun.
Pool is the one I avoid.