X360 Frame City Killer on Beta Kits

[Red Cloak]

This game is showing a huge jump now that devs have beta kits in their hands. The improvement in lighting is practically night and day (pun intended).

Can't wait to see other so-so looking games from E3 on beta/final kits. If the jump is this good I will feel a bit better about plunking down $400. ;)

SOURCE: Old and new pics can be found at http://www.xboxyde.com

[MasterEvilAce]

Sometimes, like a situation like this.. I p[refer the crappy lighting.. Not like on the glasses, or face, etc... but the simple DARKNESS. On the right, the obvious "better" lighting.. I hate seeing how the shadow just goes DARK. It reminds me of jaggies... pixels... everywhere... and I hate it. The left shows the crappy "glow" lighting.. and it's more calming to my eyes.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

His hair is blocky.

[copasetic]

his knees are pointy

[woodentaco]

some of this stuff looks awful.. http://www.xboxyde.com/pop_image.html?G=1753&N=11

[Red Cloak]

Sometimes, like a situation like this.. I p[refer the crappy lighting.. Not like on the glasses, or face, etc... but the simple DARKNESS. On the right, the obvious "better" lighting.. I hate seeing how the shadow just goes DARK. It reminds me of jaggies... pixels... everywhere... and I hate it. The left shows the crappy "glow" lighting.. and it's more calming to my eyes.

Everyone knows crappy lighting is more calming to the eyes. :rolleyes:

[FunkyPoopMonkey]

Yeah that's amazing graphics. Even the background. Oh wait...

[TrackZero]

Sometimes, like a situation like this.. I p[refer the crappy lighting.. Not like on the glasses, or face, etc... but the simple DARKNESS. On the right, the obvious "better" lighting.. I hate seeing how the shadow just goes DARK. It reminds me of jaggies... pixels... everywhere... and I hate it. The left shows the crappy "glow" lighting.. and it's more calming to my eyes.

Well, in my experience...or rather, having had to play through Doom 3. Any game using light instead of the dark pits of hell is a good thing. I like to be able to see what I'm doing, call me crazy.

I think the lighting looks fine in these shots.

[Babbster]

Well, in my experience...or rather, having had to play through Doom 3. Any game using light instead of the dark pits of hell is a good thing. I like to be able to see what I'm doing, call me crazy.

I think the lighting looks fine in these shots.

Say it twice. Some developers seem to forget that there is such a thing as sunshine...probably because they're too busy coding in their dark caves to ever see it. :D

[Zeal]

Looks like shit.

[Deadend]

His sunglasses look like they were photoshoped in after the screenshot.

[Adam Blue]

If Namco is also the dev, I'd say not too bad. The japanese need to get themselves in more of these lighting effects to coincide with their gameplay.

But namco does publish us devs. and if so it might be a small-time dev house. and if so...good job.

[Liquidize105]

Isn't this another GTA wannabe? GTA style games are not suppose to have bleeding edge good graphics.

That's some shinny fabric, wonder what his suit is made of? :rolleyes:

[noxa]

But namco does publish us devs. and if so it might be a small-time dev house. and if so...good job.

The fact that the text is in Japanese makes me doubt that :)

I must sadly agree with most of the other posts here and say this is actually pretty bad looking. Part of the problem is the source model (which may be just temporary) - the character models in HL2 were several degrees better than this and the U3 models look even more amazing. The other part is as MasterEvilAce points out - shadows don't look like that. My roommate is doing graphics research in academia and all the lighting research suffers from the same problem: the people writing the code want to make things 'accurate' and 'high resolution', but fail to remember that life isn't always like that.

[Draft]

The fact that the text is in Japanese makes me doubt that :)

I must sadly agree with most of the other posts here and say this is actually pretty bad looking. Part of the problem is the source model (which may be just temporary) - the character models in HL2 were several degrees better than this and the U3 models look even more amazing. The other part is as MasterEvilAce points out - shadows don't look like that. My roommate is doing graphics research in academia and all the lighting research suffers from the same problem: the people writing the code want to make things 'accurate' and 'high resolution', but fail to remember that life isn't always like that.No shit it doesn't look as good as HL2. HL2 renders little rooms and the occasional wide open area. This game is like GTA, with dozens of characters on screen at the same time in a huge, real time city.

[MasterEvilAce]

LoL @ Bandwith exceeded message.

[Heretic Machine]

Yes, your image has been pwned by Image Shack. That's yet another reason we don't usually put images on the front page :p

[Klade]

Theres a secret here.. these graphics really aren't shitty its just the art style.

Oh wait... thats not it.. they are just shitty.

Seriously though, these graphics are below par for a PC game wide open areas or not. Lets hope they get a bit better before release.

[Red Cloak]

Rehosted. :)

[score]

Is it just me, or is the tie painted on in the second shot? :P

[GrinR]

At some point someone will go ahead and make my routine post for me...

Nice shadows, good thing they're created by rocket-proof lightbulbs.

[IndependentGMR]

What's with those sunglasses? Does the character really wear those in the game, or is the developer just trying to be funny?

[KarmaGhost]

I'd love to make heads or tails of this site, but it's all in French, so no dice.

[fozy]

What's with those sunglasses? Does the character really wear those in the game, or is the developer just trying to be funny?

I was thinking the exact same thing! those dollar-store sunglasses are terrible.

[Adam Blue]

The fact that the text is in Japanese makes me doubt that :)

Well that's what I'm getting at. Being that it is Namco I don't expect much when it comes to graphical effects. But we should encourage the Japanese to do so. Maybe my original post didn't make sense.

[LilEvilFish]

I think the problem people are seeing with these shadows is that they are TOO perfect. For instance, wait until it's a sunny day and go stand outside when the sun isn't overhead. You cast a shadow that is taller than yourself. Fair enough?

Now the shadow at your FEET will be sharp, but as the shadow extends away, the edges become less defined and blurry. In games like this they say "Take model.. use some mad stencil buffering.. apply shadow to surrounding poly's" and the developer thinks, yeah it's a shadow, go me, now to code the sex simulation, etc. etc.

Your head and sunglasses won't cast sharp shadows on your feet now will it? Which is why the lower lighting quality looks better since the shadows are less sharp and therefore more realistic now I'm off to eat a sandwich, goodbye.

[Hizawky]

These screenshots are fucking amazing if it is modelling an entire city/state/country/planet all at once.

If it isnt, they suck.

[Kamalot]

Once again, another set of screen shots that remind me to play the games I have and save my money.

[thecrazyd]

Well that's what I'm getting at. Being that it is Namco I don't expect much when it comes to graphical effects. But we should encourage the Japanese to do so. Maybe my original post didn't make sense.
Why? People play tons of Japanese games that don't have the best graphics. Why waste time worrying about graphics if they do not need them to be sucessful?

[Kamalot]

Namco can make some damn sweet character models. All next-gen character models should look AT LEAST as good as Soul Calibur characters at this point.

Come on, with all the talk about how powerful these next-gen consoles are, can't we expect to have things look AT LEAST as good as the best that this generation can offer?

[Hellstorm]

Which one is before and which on is after? So far the next gen isn't much different from this gen, just more expensive to buy into.

[Adam Blue]

Why? People play tons of Japanese games that don't have the best graphics. Why waste time worrying about graphics if they do not need them to be sucessful?


OK....well they don't have to HAVE the best graphics but look at it this way...The Japanese have pretty much mastered gameplay, and of course there are a few exeptions. The Japanese could master certain graphical effects and impliment them into their games much more casually. Graphics aren't supposed to be the GAME, but with that aspect mastered, the game would have that much more polish.

I'm not trying to debate a subject or pick a side of the fence, I'm just SAYING. More of a thought, or idea. Ninja Gaiden with real-time lighting and normal mapping? Fucking amazing.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I think Plain Shitty Killer is living up to its name graphically, what are you guystalking about??

...what?!?! It's called Frame City Killer?? Oh, well then I can see what you mean.

That can't be the Unreal Engine 3. It looks 'Unreal' alright..

[TrackZero]

Namco can make some damn sweet character models. All next-gen character models should look AT LEAST as good as Soul Calibur characters at this point.

Come on, with all the talk about how powerful these next-gen consoles are, can't we expect to have things look AT LEAST as good as the best that this generation can offer?

To be fair, this is better than what this generation offers. Since it's rendering an entire city, ala GTA. I don't remember the GTA guy looking as good as that......

As well, in a fighter game, most of the hardware IS spent on rendering the player models, as the levels are small compared to most games. So that's hardly a fair comparison.

[Kamalot]

As well, in a fighter game, most of the hardware IS spent on rendering the player models, as the levels are small compared to most games. So that's hardly a fair comparison.
It is a completely fair comparison.

In TODAY's fighter game, the majority of the hardware is spend rendering character models. When tomorrow comes around and the hardware is several times as powerful as it is today, where are those extra cycles going to go?

If we can Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast, why not use every bit of power above and beyond what the Dreamcast is capable of to create the rest of the world.

In the last generation, we had X number of polygons for the entire level. That's the structure of the level, badguys and chararacter. This generation X number of polygons can be found in a single character model.

It only makes sense that, as the hardware gets more powerful, the models should get more realistic, otherwise, we'd all be running around with character models that came from Virtua Fighter or Mario 64 but in giant levels.

If the generational shift is really worth $400+ then it really better be worth $400+!

[Twigz'N'Berries]

It is a completely fair comparison.

In TODAY's fighter game, the majority of the hardware is spend rendering character models. When tomorrow comes around and the hardware is several times as powerful as it is today, where are those extra cycles going to go?

If we can Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast, why not use every bit of power above and beyond what the Dreamcast is capable of to create the rest of the world.

In the last generation, we had X number of polygons for the entire level. That's the structure of the level, badguys and chararacter. This generation X number of polygons can be found in a single character model.

It only makes sense that, as the hardware gets more powerful, the models should get more realistic, otherwise, we'd all be running around with character models that came from Virtua Fighter or Mario 64 but in giant levels.

If the generational shift is really worth $400+ then it really better be worth $400+!

Good point.
In all fairness, the draw distance and detail found in this game are much greater than anything you would see on this consoles generation. It isn't up to the level that I would like to see, but it is a step forward over this gen.

Well, whether or not it is worth $400 is dependent upon how much $400 is worth to you.

[Kamalot]

Here is my completely unscientific, hopped up on cold medicine chart I slapped together.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the Xbox 360 is 3x as powerful as the current generation consoles.

3X?! That’s it?

Yeah, Forgetabout it for a sec, this is just for the sake of argument.

http://www.kamalot.com/junk/rendercrap.gif

If the Xbox 360 is AT LEAST 3X as powerful as the current generation, we should be able to use Soul Calibur-like character models and still have plenty of resources left over to render a game world several times bigger than the biggest available today.

Instead, we get stuck with character models that look like they have come from early PS2 games with generic light blooms added.
http://www.kamalot.com/junk/original-1.jpg

And THIS guy has cooler glasses!!!

[Kamalot]

Oh look! I hear they are coming out with a next-gen version of Headhunter.
http://www.kamalot.com/junk/enhanced-1.jpg

I say WOW!

:D

Gah! I can't even look at those Frame City Killer images any more. They look like current gen models with far too many bump maps applied. Bump-map crazy!

[51|RandoM]

You know, those yellow-edged shades might be good. I'm already feeling the urge to shoot that guy, even if just to put him out of his fasion misery.

[Xerxes]

Kamelot you have too much time on your hands. :-P

This game doesn't look to bad to me. But why is Tom Cruise 2 feet taller, and where is Jamie Foxx... ;-)

[drakkarim]

is it just me or do both of those pics look like crap? i hope the 360 can do something better then that, otherwise ps3 will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[Xerxes]

Yeah drakkarim, cause KillZone 2 was so l33t.

[drakkarim]

not sure what KillZone 2 is, but in either case, i don't plan on getting either console, so could care less which is better, my point was that I >personally< wouldn't be bragging about that screenshot as if it was 'all that', cuz its only all that if you're coming from a nintendo 64.

[Kamalot]

Can't wait to see other so-so looking games from E3 on beta/final kits. If the jump is this good I will feel a bit better about plunking down $400. ;)
Sorry. I couldn't justify plunking down $400 for anything like this. I actually find the pics look better if they are smaller since the gawd-awful bump mapping is drastically reduced. The 720p ones are the worst since they bring out all of the extra shitty detail.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Trust me, I'm not defending this game as I have taken to calling it PSK (Plain S_itty Killer) but it looks a hell of a lot better when they give you a shot of the character in a city with a lot of other characters walking around. It looks a lot better in motion. Though, why they would make your character model the ugliest in the game is far beyond me. The draw distance was excellent.

[Xerxes]

Screenshots just don't cut it anymore. OXM is getting unbearable with the pics, however the demo disc is a godsend. We need magazines of the future with hi-def motion pages. O_o

[blademonkey]

Screenshots just don't cut it anymore. OXM is getting unbearable with the pics, however the demo disc is a godsend. We need magazines of the future with hi-def motion pages. O_o

I couldnt agree more. I dont think any screenshots are accurate representation of the Game itself, maybe of the artistic style. Video's of the ingame engine would be a good representation and intro to this game, but i see none available. Only then will we be able to tell if a game developper has been successfull in pairing impressive graphics details with impressive framerates (i, being a FPS gamer, lean towards the framerate camp).

At first glance, these screenshots remind me of the rendering style for shenmue (Dreamcast). At second glance, i see an attempt to imitate Headhunter (Dreamcast, PS2) which was an exhilirating experience for me (at least on the Dreamcast).

I have to concur with Kamalot about the ability to render the character models. After all the hype of the next gen consoles, one would expect the claims to be somewhat justified. Rendering a level is nice and all, but for the most part, the user's eyes will be centered on the action, and characters taking the action. Details should probably be emphasized on those characters, since it's what the user will end up looking at for the majority of the game.

In one of the previous posts, someone claimed that "the japanese had mastered gameplay". Just who are these Japanese he/she speaks of? People of Japanese Nationality? or Japanese Companies (who of course don't hire anything but Japanese Employees). Har Har.

[Xerxes]

Kamelot where would you slap the Unreal 3/Gears of War models.

blademonkey you are correct... Shenmue 3 all the way, more so when seeing it in motion.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=6956&type=mov

Here is something else coming from Namco on Xbox 360:
[eM] -eNCHANT arM-
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=6971&type=mov

[Kamalot]

The only shots I have seen of Gears of War have been prerendered from EGM a few months ago. I gotta say, they looked hot! They contained a level of detail I have yet to see in a game engine. I'll reserve judgement until I see the game in action though since I have been fooled too many times before by how things look in screen shots.

Anyone remember how Microsoft showed off all those Halo 2 screens that were rendered at a stupid-high resolution, designed for print? They used real assets from the game but were rendered in such a way that you couldn't get something that looked that good on your TV, ever. Deceptive? Yeah. Did it sell lots of Halo 2 copies? You betcha.

For example, the trailer you linked to for the RPG from From Software is mostly pre-rendered. When they DO show in-game screens, they have half-decent character models, but nothing beyond what we've come to expect from this generation. In fact, the entire battle sequences may have been lifted from current titles. There is no huge environment, just a simple battle arena. From Software also uses prerendered CG for most of their intros for the games I've played. This looks to be the same.

Gears of War may make me say "WOW' but so far most next-gen screens and movies are not at all impressive. In fact, most of them don't even look fun. :(

[Kamalot]

In the Enchanted Arm trailer, one of the in-game screens shows a male character attacking by playing a saxophone while showing off midriff. Another male character attacks by pummling enemies with transparent hearts.

http://www.kamalot.com/junk/from_sax.jpg
The mouth of this sax is even heart shaped. WTF?

http://www.kamalot.com/junk/from_hearts.jpg

What the hell kinda game is this? Is this really going to sell to the mostly-male, testosterone-filled Xbox 360 demographic?

[blademonkey]

Yes, because it's is geared towards heart-core gamers.

{= )

(i know, that was bad)

[Kamalot]

No, That was GOOD!

LMAO!

[Achilles]

The only shots I have seen of Gears of War have been prerendered from EGM a few months ago. I gotta say, they looked hot! They contained a level of detail I have yet to see in a game engine. I'll reserve judgement until I see the game in action though since I have been fooled too many times before by how things look in screen shots.

Gears of War may make me say "WOW' but so far most next-gen screens and movies are not at all impressive. In fact, most of them don't even look fun. :(So you didn't watch any of the videos that are out there? The screenshots you saw were probably real-time rendered rather than pre-rendered. I don't think I've seen a prerendered screenshot of it yet, and there's no prerendered video in it as far as I know. Call of Duty 2 will also make you say "wow" by the way.

[Kamalot]

Just downloaded the high-res video for Gears of War. Nice Nice Nice! This is the FIRST thing for the 360 that has impressed me. While I was out there, I also got the video for Frame City Killer. While the video presented the game in an interesting and dramatic manner, the game still looks like something that comes out of a monkey's butt.

Yeah, yeah, the entire rendered city.

Tell me, what good is rendering an entire city when it looks like poo? The people on screen were moving in an erratic manner and passing through each other. All of the graphic tricks in the world can't fix a game when people's limbs pass through each other or their hair passes through their clothes like in the DOA4 video. Instantly, all the "Wow" leaves because the spell is broken.

All too often the Next-gen stuff looks like enhanced versions of current gen but multiplied many times over.

Take Kameo for instance. The original GameCube videos made it looks like a colorful puzzle-switching exploration kinda game where you gain abilities by capturing creatures. Now, not only is it much darker than before, they take a few current generation creatures, add bump maps and fill the screen with hundreds of them. Why? Cause they can? Does that make it a better game? Are all of these games going to work on the “More shitty models = a Better Game” theory?

[mister_slim]

The detail in GoW is nice. Hopefully the animation and A.I. will be polished a bit by release.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Just downloaded the high-res video for Gears of War. Nice Nice Nice! This is the FIRST thing for the 360 that has impressed me. While I was out there, I also got the video for Frame City Killer. While the video presented the game in an interesting and dramatic manner, the game still looks like something that comes out of a monkey's butt.

Yeah, yeah, the entire rendered city.

Tell me, what good is rendering an entire city when it looks like poo? The people on screen were moving in an erratic manner and passing through each other. All of the graphic tricks in the world can't fix a game when people's limbs pass through each other or their hair passes through their clothes like in the DOA4 video. Instantly, all the "Wow" leaves because the spell is broken.

All too often the Next-gen stuff looks like enhanced versions of current gen but multiplied many times over.

Take Kameo for instance. The original GameCube videos made it looks like a colorful puzzle-switching exploration kinda game where you gain abilities by capturing creatures. Now, not only is it much darker than before, they take a few current generation creatures, add bump maps and fill the screen with hundreds of them. Why? Cause they can? Does that make it a better game? Are all of these games going to work on the “More shitty models = a Better Game” theory?

Well, its not just the 360 you should throw rocks at. Of the games shown for PS3, if you look at some of the character modles on GT:V, they are horrid. Fifth Phantom Saga looks like garbage and the Gundam in game was devoid of life...and slower than frozen molasses.

But the FCK demo (wow..the games initals almost convey my opinion of it) shows the possibility of what could be done. The city didn't look bad. The people looked pretty good actually. The main character looks like crap and he looks as blocky as hell. The cars seem too small for the people in the game. The lighting was good (though soft shadowing would be nice) and for the most part, the tectyures were ok. What game on this gen looks that good with a city rendered the way FCK has done it. None that I know of. But, I comfort myself with the knowledge that this is a painful baby step from Namco. There games will look so much better now that they have experience programming for the 360.

The success of the 360 lies in how well developers program for it and learn how to squeeze performance out of it.

[Kamalot]

I'm not throwing rocks at the 360.

I throw rocks at crap.

I've seen better quality character models coming from Poser.

[Xerxes]

Whoa Kamalot, calm down there... Hell this game looks looks no better than Breakdown. <shrug>

[Kamalot]

Whoa Kamalot, calm down there... Hell this game looks looks no better than Breakdown. <shrug>
Linkage?

Seriously though, 95% of everything I have seen from next gen games has be seriously dissapointed. Things don't look real, they look like stiff puppets with fakey-fakey textures only there are lots more of them.

The more I see, the less impressed I am with the upcoming generation.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Have some patience.
You have to give developers time to learn how to use the new systems. They are going from single thread to multi-threaded gaming, the dev tools are different and some simply aren't as talented or as funded as others.
Games like GoW and Oblivion hint at the level of detail that can be achieved. Remember, those are the first wave of games produced on the system. Name one system that didn't have improved graphics later on in its console life. Hell, PS2 graphics keep getting better...
That said, FCK could look a helll of a lot better. But perhaps Namco didn't want to take the additional time needed to make the game look better. They may simply be trying to capitalize as a launch title where they will have less competition.

[Xerxes]

Breakdown was another Namco game about first person fighting... Point is aside from fighter NAMCO is the end all and be all of new stuff to come...

[Achilles]

Things don't look real, they look like stiff puppets with fakey-fakey textures only there are lots more of them.We are now entering the Uncanny Valley, please keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle. If the same models were skinned as in World or Warcraft it wouldn't be nearly as noticeable. The closer something gets to realistic the more bothersome small things become because your mind begins to compare it not to games but to reality.

For example this looks a ton better than GTA, but because GTA was so consistently unrealistic it ended up looking more acceptable than FCK. There was a ton missing but you didn't notice it because you didn't expect it to be there. Now with FCK people are complaining about the darkness of the shadow that the main character's head casts on his shoulder, where in GTA they never even noticed that it wasn't there at all.

[mister_slim]

What? Style and art direction are more important than polygon count and fancy lighting?

Heretic! Burn him!

[Kamalot]

We are now entering the Uncanny Valley, please keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle. If the same models were skinned as in World or Warcraft it wouldn't be nearly as noticeable. The closer something gets to realistic the more bothersome small things become because your mind begins to compare it not to games but to reality.

For example this looks a ton better than GTA, but because GTA was so consistently unrealistic it ended up looking more acceptable than FCK. There was a ton missing but you didn't notice it because you didn't expect it to be there. Now with FCK people are complaining about the darkness of the shadow that the main character's head casts on his shoulder, where in GTA they never even noticed that it wasn't there at all.
I think you hit the nail on the head. With most current games, people can look at it and see if the game looks good or not. With the introduction of bump maps and fancy shadows, people instead look at games and proclaim that it looks terrible, compared to reality. Iit is difficult to see the game through the silly-putty hair and herky-jerky puppet animations.

[Xerxes]

Hell yeah i want reality... Like those kids in that commercial that sit there and call out moves, sign me up for that.