China Limits MMORPG Playtime

[WastelandDan]

The Chinese Government unveiled a new system Tuesday to prevent individuals from playing online games for more than three consecutive hours, which must be installed for every online game in the country.

"This timing mechanism can prevent young people from becoming addicted to online games," Kou Xiaowei, Deputy Director of the Audiovisual and Internet Publication Department of the General Administration of Press and Publication (GAPP), said during a press conference.
Thanks to Interfax China (http://www.interfax.cn/showfeature.asp?aid=4913) for the link.

Just reading this article makes me feel like I'm going through WoW withdrawl

[Deathbane27]

Heh. 3 hours a day is still plenty of time to get addicted.

Is the Chinese market worth it for Blizzard to make special coding on their Chinese WoW servers to cut the player's effective level in half to comply? It seems like such a huge pain in the butt that they'd just boot the player when 3 hours is reached.

[Blue]

Heh. 3 hours a day is still plenty of time to get addicted.

Is the Chinese market worth it for Blizzard to make special coding on their Chinese WoW servers to cut the player's effective level in half to comply? It seems like such a huge pain in the butt that they'd just boot the player when 3 hours is reached.

That, and they're all going to hit 60 right-quick with all of that built up rest from not playing all that often.

[Tricky Thumb]

Watch this never work.

[bean19]

Quote from the story, "Players must be logged off for a minimum of five hours before the system resets."

Ooooh. Farmers will have to use multiple accounts!

[Deadend]

Welcome to China... where protection laws in the physical world are pathetic, yet the internet is blocked off and the saftey of children is a concern.

Goddamn China is full of shit.

[Klade]

Is the chinease market worth it? Probably, I have no idea how many subscribers they have but the article makes it sound like the coding will be done by some other company or perhaps the govt itself and then it will be left to the company to integrate it. Plus the aarticle says that WoW is doing it, and they know better about how much market they have vs how long this will take then anyone here heh.

This of course is a very silly thing since it only means people need multiple accounts (which most of the hardcore already have) but then again if your an oppressive communist govt doing silly things to no purpose for the good of the people is sort of your thing.

Makes me glad that I live in the good ol' U. S. of A where the people called "communists" are typically just democrats disliked by the right wing ;)

[Liquidize105]

This of course is a very silly thing since it only means people need multiple accounts (which most of the hardcore already have) but then again if your an oppressive communist govt doing silly things to no purpose for the good of the people is sort of your thing.

Makes me glad that I live in the good ol' U. S. of A where the people called "communists" are typically just democrats disliked by the right wing ;)
That's a pretty dumb thing to say.

You realize that the culture is different accross the Pacific, right? Youngens over there study like a bunch of mofos, I mean literally from dawn till dusk. MMOs, on the other hand, are culturally accepted as formal entertainment for the old as well as young, and are advertized as such. Would it work? I don't know and I don't pretend to know, but it sounds awfully like a responsible person would do. I'd say 4-5 hours, but that's just me.

You don't have to agree with their hardboiled logic and enforcement, but underneath it's the same type of unrealistic rationale that's been hurled around in the U.S. since the olden days (I mean since when has the legal drinking age ever stopped anyone, ANYONE, from drinking? Did you?). And with this current "war" going on (and all I got was this expensive gas!), I'd say we aren't too different in our hopes for a healthy lifestyle.

[Kefkataran]

Wow, that's really lame. Especially considering that in the upper game of most MMORPGs you need over three hours of in-game time to accomplish anything.

[Liquidize105]

Wow, that's really lame. Especially considering that in the upper game of most MMORPGs you need over three hours of in-game time to accomplish anything.
...

You just proved the whole point you genius! :eek: ;)

[Kefkataran]

What point? That they won't be able to get shit done in the games now? If the problem is that the games take too long to accomplish anything, the solution is banning the games as a whole, not limitting time. That just gives them enough to get halfway done with a task then get booted off and have to restart it.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Since most Internet use in China occurs on public computers (i.e. Internet cafes and the like), I'm surprised a law like this wasn't implemented a long time ago.

[Kefkataran]

Since most Internet use in China occurs on public computers (i.e. Internet cafes and the like)

Well, I think the term 'public computers' for internet cafes isn't quite accurate. A public computer would be more like one in a library that's free and open for anyone to use. It makes sense to limit time on them. A computer in an internet cafe isn't really public as you're paying for your time on it, so it's sort of being rented out to you. Now it still might make sense to restrict time on that, and businesses certainly have the right to do so, but I think most store owners would agree that as long as the customer keeps paying, they have no problems with them staying.

[Liquidize105]

What point? That they won't be able to get shit done in the games now? If the problem is that the games take too long to accomplish anything, the solution is banning the games as a whole, not limitting time. That just gives them enough to get halfway done with a task then get booted off and have to restart it.
You proved the point that MMOs, as a serious form of entertainment, have no regard for the personal wellbeing of the consumer. Would you watch 24, or even 10 hours of TV, straight? How about movies? The whole MMO concept is a picture of a cash cow. The obvious/ideal solution to this is to push the genre beyond treadmilling and 3+ hour per instance.

GW is a start, a baby step. Back to the drawing board with the rest!

[WastelandDan]

Well, he actually has a point. The majority of internet cafes not only rent out their computers but also offer food and drink. With a time limit in place like this the turnover rate in these cafes will be much higher, and will probably boost these sorts of sales. Of course, there's always the chance of less business because it will reduce the number of "regulars" who are in for long stretches of time and with an imposed time limit they're clearly trying to wean people from the internet gaming teat.

I really have no idea though, I don't know how entrepreneurship actually works in a communist country. In theory yes, but in practice who knows.

[Kefkataran]

You proved the point that MMOs, as a serious form of entertainment, have no regard for the personal wellbeing of the consumer. Would you watch 24, or even 10 hours of TV, straight? How about movies? The whole MMO concept is a picture of a cash cow. The obvious/ideal solution to this is to push the genre beyond treadmilling and 3+ hour per instance.

GW is a start, a baby step. Back to the drawing board with the rest!

I agree that it would be good for MMOs to look at that and start working to fix it. But that doesn't stop the fact that it's not how they are now and people are still playing them. Irregardless of whether or not the game's creators have any regard for the consumer's health, it's the consumers who are choosing to play them and ignore their health in doing so.

That said, I've had gaming marathons that have lasted 6-8 hours before, and that's the max time sink I've ever seen needed for one session in an MMORPG. Anywhere 10-24 hours is a pretty big exageration in my opinion. Of course I wouldn't want to be doing those kind of gaming marathons often, so I don't.

And I'd say WoW takes some positive steps too. It's not right up until the very end-game that you start having to put in too much time.

I really have no idea though, I don't know how entrepreneurship actually works in a communist country. In theory yes, but in practice who knows.

Well, there's also the fact that it's not even exactly a communist country. China's in a weird inbetween state right now where it still follows some of its communist leanings but is becoming more capitalist in a lot of ways as well, so business has to be working in some weird ways there.

[Liquidize105]

I agree that it would be good for MMOs to look at that and start working to fix it. But that doesn't stop the fact that it's not how they are now and people are still playing them. Irregardless of whether or not the game's creators have any regard for the consumer's health, it's the consumers who are choosing to play them and ignore their health in doing so.

That said, I've had gaming marathons that have lasted 6-8 hours before, and that's the max time sink I've ever seen needed for one session in an MMORPG. Anywhere 10-24 hours is a pretty big exageration in my opinion. Of course I wouldn't want to be doing those kind of gaming marathons often, so I don't.
No wonder this country's the fattest in the world.

I'd also wonder why suicide, or even assisted suicide, isn't llegal in this country. You have the right to excessively indulge in something so much that it kills you, but not when you have a legitimate reason to end your life? The hypocracy!

And I'd say WoW takes some positive steps too. It's not right up until the very end-game that you start having to put in too much time.
Since the hardcore blows through the game rather quickly, I'd say that Blizzard's actually making the casual money. People with lives are playing, but they're not the ones who typically go on binges. Although the casual/hardcore dichotomy is only evident in USA and Europe, I'd say it's more difficult in Asia.

I wonder if they plan to install this onto the console MMOs, like FF11.


**I'm outta here, I'm late for my roadwork.

[Heretic Machine]

Limiting a person's freedom to play games = stupid. It's that simple, you have no arguments to support it.

[Kefkataran]

No wonder this country's the fattest in the world.

I'd also wonder why suicide, or even assisted suicide, isn't llegal in this country. You have the right to excessively indulge in something so much that it kills you, but not when you have a legitimate reason to end your life? The hypocracy!

So much that it kills you? Excuse me, but I don't see a lot of people dying from an abundance of videogame-playing in the U.S. In fact, I see that happening in Korea a lot more. I think that's a silly point at best. And I play lots of games, as I stated, but I'm not fat. A connection there is also tenuous.


I wonder if they plan to install this onto the console MMOs, like FF11.

The article said every online game in the country. So that would include console games and non-MMORPGs.

Limiting a person's freedom to play games = stupid. It's that simple, you have no arguments to support it.

Agreed a million times over. The simple fact of the matter is that as much as you personally might disagree with someone playing a game for a ridiculous amount of time and as much as you personally might find it disgusting (I know I do in some cases), it's their right to be able to do so if they so choose. That's what freedom is about. Thus: Fuck China and their government.

[Liquidize105]

I'm not arguing for or against it. I explained the motivation behind it and why MMOs need some fresh blood.

But who knows? Wait till someone in this country dies from one of those. Imagine the publicity that comes with the suit, and the witch-hunting Thompson! The MMO companies would deny responsibility so fast... It'd be in every user agreement, EULA or whatever they call it. Nothing would get done.

The ciggy companies still make a bundle. People die. Placing a restriction on certain things isn't a bad thing. Depends on how you do it, good can outweigh the bad, innovative things may even come out of the whole shebang. Marlboro lights sold better than red when I worked the register.

[MrMeatshake]

sounds kinda sensible to me. the whole thing about MMO time-sinks is daft anyway.

[Royal Fool]

I agree that it would be good for MMOs to look at that and start working to fix it. But that doesn't stop the fact that it's not how they are now and people are still playing them. Irregardless of whether or not the game's creators have any regard for the consumer's health, it's the consumers who are choosing to play them and ignore their health in doing so.


Yup. Just look at the alcahol and tobacco industries. Everybody knows about the health risks, but people still buy it by the tons.

[MrMeatshake]

Yup. Just look at the alcahol and tobacco industries. Everybody knows about the health risks, but people still buy it by the tons.

yeah, like vodka (http://iafrica.com/news/quirky/286608.htm). love that story. nearly cried laughing when my workmates told me about it.

great thing is, the organisers would probably get away with it in most of the liberal countries in europe - maybe even here. with the: 'well, obviously they were gonna die! but they did it anyway, it's not like we forced them!' defense. ;)

[Kelegacy]

Is the chinease market worth it? Probably, I have no idea how many subscribers they have but the article makes it sound like the coding will be done by some other company or perhaps the govt itself and then it will be left to the company to integrate it. Plus the aarticle says that WoW is doing it, and they know better about how much market they have vs how long this will take then anyone here heh.

This of course is a very silly thing since it only means people need multiple accounts (which most of the hardcore already have) but then again if your an oppressive communist govt doing silly things to no purpose for the good of the people is sort of your thing.

Makes me glad that I live in the good ol' U. S. of A where the people called "communists" are typically just democrats disliked by the right wing ;)

The word communist is rooted in the word, "community" or "commune". Communism isnt bad, as it requires everyone in the government to pull his or her own weight, not leeching off the system. It's very individual-based. The only drawback is, it usually leads to a dictatorship. A communist government is excellent on paper, but when pushed into action, it sometimes fails due to this dictatorship loophole. I believe it can be just as successful as capitalism (which I despise), and USSR flourished under communism, but because we are capitalist fatcats here in the states, we want everyone else to be.

Communism isnt bad, and communists dont want to bring the world to its knees. I'm not a commie, but I can appreciate the ideology.

[ldi222]

The USSR flourished under communism.

What kind of crack are you smoking? There sure are a lot of self loathing Americans around here.

[Kelegacy]

What kind of crack are you smoking? There sure are a lot of self loathing Americans around here.

Um, do you remember the Cold War? They are disbanded now, but decades ago Russia wasn't in the state they are in now. They even had a strong space program. That doesnt sound like a 3rd world country to me.

[ldi222]

Sure... If you like waiting in lines around the block for a loaf of bread.

[HotCoffeeDude]

Doesn't China WOW have a different billing setup, where they bill timewise (like a phone card) instead of monthly.

If so, won't this have a serious effect on Blizzard's profits (not that they're hurting, exactly)? Maybe there's an economic reason behind it.

[MrMeatshake]

Doesn't China WOW have a different billing setup, where they bill timewise (like a phone card) instead of monthly.

If so, won't this have a serious effect on Blizzard's profits (not that they're hurting, exactly)? Maybe there's an economic reason behind it.

i didn't know about different billing. the chinese market is rediculously large. if they can get any slice of that it'd b v impressive, and give blizzard a huge amount of leverage in the future.

[Kefkataran]

Wait till someone in this country dies from one of those. Imagine the publicity that comes with the suit, and the witch-hunting Thompson! The MMO companies would deny responsibility so fast

Could be argued that it's happened with a couple suicides where Everquest was involved. Media has taken that angle before. But it was a pretty week argument so it never got much steam behind it.

The ciggy companies still make a bundle. People die. Placing a restriction on certain things isn't a bad thing.

There's a huuuuuuuuuuuuge difference between cigarettes and MMORPGs, and not just in terms of death rate. And I just cannot feel any sense of connection with anyone who would sooner restrict freedom than allow people to make choices on their own. If individuals can't take responsibility for themselves then they probably deserve what they're getting.

[reimomo]

Sure... If you like waiting in lines around the block for a loaf of bread.


OMG teh communizm is evilzzor!!!!!

[Librum]

*sniff* I'm going to miss feeding all my PRC buddies at Tyr's Hand. 120 fook ok!

[MasterKwan]

Kelegacy, I found your comments deeply amusing in a "listen to the naive college grad" kind of way.

[Kelegacy]

Kelegacy, I found your comments deeply amusing in a "listen to the naive college grad" kind of way.

I'm just saying, communism CAN work! Let past failures of countless nations be ignored! Join today and we can make a difference!

We'll see how long we last without a dictator....

[netcraazzy]

*sniff* I'm going to miss feeding all my PRC buddies at Tyr's Hand. 120 fook ok!

Haha Tyr's Hand, always go there when I want a good laugh. My little brother has made a game out of aggroing all the mobs and then releasing them on the gold farmers.

Seriously though, that 3 hour restriction will cause problems for high lvl chinese WoW players. Instances like Molten Core take a while to get a raid group formed, and then actually doing the instance can take several hours.

I know I play WoW for 3-5 hour stretches after work on some nights. I think about 5 hours is my limit after that I just get sick of sitting there.

[Thenetcase]

Seems to me that with over 2 billion people on your streets that you might want a few of them addicted to the Internet. It would keep them from going out and committing crimes and doing bad things... making the polices job easier.

China is run by a bunch of freaking idiots. As bad as it gets here in the USA, I'm still glad to be here. At least our numbnuts in government aren't trying to dictate how much time we can spend on our computers ... yet.

Stupid Chinese morons.

-TNC-

P.S. Did I mention that they are freaking idiots?

[Kefkataran]

Kelegacy, I found your comments deeply amusing in a "listen to the naive college grad" kind of way.

I don't think he's saying we should switch to communism, just that it's not an innately evil idea and could work in theory, just hasn't yet in practice. I see his point. I still wouldn't recommend switching to communism, at least not right now.

[Voodoo]

I've tried to start playing WoW again after playing BF2 for a while now... It is very hard to get back into it after the action of BF2.

Are there any MMORPGs like Planetside other than Planetside? I mean, I love Planetside but hell the servers are empty! Or is there a game as grand as Planetside which isn't Planetside? Oh hell, I bet not.

[evilpenguin9000]

Sure... If you like waiting in lines around the block for a loaf of bread.


Sounds like someone fell for America's anti communist propaganda.

Yeah they wait in lines for days for toliet paper and are just waiting to pounce on your children and force them to not worship god. Oh Noes! The evil communists are coming! Run!

[Kefkataran]

Guys, I'm up for only semi-informed political bitching as much as the next guy, but maybe we should drop this. People tend to get out of hand and heated (and endlessly annoying) when it comes to a subject like Communism. Generally this escalates to the point where neither side can possibly have any affect on the other sides opinion because they're so passionate about their beliefs. Thus: why even argue about it.

/den mother

[Kelegacy]

/den mother

Wuss. Go bake some cookies.

[ldi222]

Sounds like someone fell for America's anti communist propaganda.

Do you know any Russian immigrants? Because I do... Sometimes propaganda and truth are the same thing.... I guess any fallen empire is looked more fondly upon as time moves on.

[bean19]

I don't think he's saying we should switch to communism, just that it's not an innately evil idea and could work in theory, just hasn't yet in practice. I see his point. I still wouldn't recommend switching to communism, at least not right now.

Communism actually is proven to be a very strong form of government among small societies. . . we are talking villages and city-states here at the largest.

The idea of working harder to help Paul doesn't sit well when the community working harder doesn't know Paul personally. People want to know that Paul is a crippled war veteran with a pregnant wife and that he is not town's lay about. Also, Paul is less likely to be a lay about and accept the products of his neighbor's labor than he is to accept checks from a faceless government.

Anyway, I think the point is not this lesson in social anthropology, but in the loaded meaning of "communism". A lot of people associate the term with fascism and dictatorial restriction of freedoms due to the two major examples in recent history: Russia and China. These negative effects can stem from any form of government, but they do seem to coincide with large communist governments often. There are plenty of real-life examples of democracies that restrict freedoms to a greater degree than the Soviet Union ever did. Usually this takes a strongly religious core of the population with poor voter knowledge.

This occurred in Germany with the rise of Hitler, and while the corollary to the current situation in the U.S. certainly exists, I don't think we are nearly in so bad a state because of some of the checks and balances that are in place. However, that is why you see so many people freaking out when things like the filabuster are attacked, or when federal life-time appointments (like Supreme Court seats) are made. These checks and balances are what have kept our country steadily becoming more free over time (abolishment of slavery, women's suffrage, desegregation) etc. We've also taken steps backward, and I think we are in one of those periodes now, but I think as long as we maintain the founder's checks and balances, eventually we will move forward again. . . the next major thing on the table will probably be gay marriage.

[Vulture]

Well maybe in ecnourages character development in mulitple MMOs simultaneously.
You know like play 3 hours of COH, then log in for 3 hours of Wow, then go do your Beta for 3 hours.

[evilpenguin9000]

Do you know any Russian immigrants? Because I do... Sometimes propaganda and truth are the same thing.... I guess any fallen empire is looked more fondly upon as time moves on.


Actually I majored in Russian in college and met plenty of Russians that had lived in both Russia and the U.S. I don't doubt there is a hair of truth to those stories, but I also firmly believe that the American media had a certain agenda when reporting that type of story too.

Honestly if Communism was so horrible, why is a significant portion of their current government still calling themselves communists? People don't vote for breadlines and scarcity.

[XenonCJ]

Um, do you remember the Cold War? They are disbanded now, but decades ago Russia wasn't in the state they are in now. They even had a strong space program. That doesnt sound like a 3rd world country to me.Oh my god that is the stupided post I've ever read. Kelegacy, your incredible lack of understanding history is actually amazing.

[XenonCJ]

Communism actually is proven to be a very strong form of government among small societies. . . we are talking villages and city-states here at the largest.

The idea of working harder to help Paul doesn't sit well when the community working harder doesn't know Paul personally. People want to know that Paul is a crippled war veteran with a pregnant wife and that he is not town's lay about. Also, Paul is less likely to be a lay about and accept the products of his neighbor's labor than he is to accept checks from a faceless government.

Anyway, I think the point is not this lesson in social anthropology, but in the loaded meaning of "communism". A lot of people associate the term with fascism and dictatorial restriction of freedoms due to the two major examples in recent history: Russia and China. These negative effects can stem from any form of government, but they do seem to coincide with large communist governments often. There are plenty of real-life examples of democracies that restrict freedoms to a greater degree than the Soviet Union ever did. Usually this takes a strongly religious core of the population with poor voter knowledge.Uhm wrong. It is a REQUIREMENT that Communism restrict freedoms. Why? Because the governent decides who is employeed to do what and how. Who is a scientist and who is a janitor is passed down by government edict. With that being the case, the government MUST restrict freedom to information so that the janitors aren't pissed that they are janitors and so forth. It's a downward sprialing system that works aginst human nature to better themselves.

Also I challenge you to show me an example of a real democracy that has less freedoms than The Soviet Union did.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Honestly if Communism was so horrible, why is a significant portion of their current government still calling themselves communists? People don't vote for breadlines and scarcity.

No, but they do if they think it's better than the alternative -- many Russians, particularly the older Russians who make up the bulk of the Communist Party's current support base, have fared very badly under the current system, and waiting in line for the bare essentials doesn't sound as bad as not getting those essentials at all because your pension can't cover them. Furthermore a large part of the Russian Communist Party's current success is because they now emphasize Russian nationalism alongside communism, thus appealing to those older Russians who look back with fondness (rightly or wrongly) on the days when Russia was a global superpower and not an honorary member of the Third World. In other former Eastern bloc states, where nationalism plays a less significant political role, the former ruling communist parties have only found electoral success after ditching Marxism-Leninism and reposititioning themeslves as mainstream socialist parties (see, for example, the ruling Bulgarian Socialist Party, or the PDS in former East Germany).

[Kefkataran]

Communism actually is proven to be a very strong form of government among small societies. . . we are talking villages and city-states here at the largest.

Oh, I know. I've read lots of Rousseau, and I'm a political theory major, so this is something we discuss often.

It is a REQUIREMENT that Communism restrict freedoms. Why? Because the governent decides who is employeed to do what and how. Who is a scientist and who is a janitor is passed down by government edict.

Was that true in Russia, China, and many of the major communist countries we've seen in the world? Yes. Is that a requirement of communism? Not at all. Communism can exist with or without government being that involved.

Seriously, though, this is getting me pretty psyched to get back into my poli-theory classes. Woot.

[Kelegacy]

Communism actually is proven to be a very strong form of government among small societies. . . we are talking villages and city-states here at the largest.

The idea of working harder to help Paul doesn't sit well when the community working harder doesn't know Paul personally. People want to know that Paul is a crippled war veteran with a pregnant wife and that he is not town's lay about. Also, Paul is less likely to be a lay about and accept the products of his neighbor's labor than he is to accept checks from a faceless government.

Anyway, I think the point is not this lesson in social anthropology, but in the loaded meaning of "communism". A lot of people associate the term with fascism and dictatorial restriction of freedoms due to the two major examples in recent history: Russia and China. These negative effects can stem from any form of government, but they do seem to coincide with large communist governments often. There are plenty of real-life examples of democracies that restrict freedoms to a greater degree than the Soviet Union ever did. Usually this takes a strongly religious core of the population with poor voter knowledge.

This occurred in Germany with the rise of Hitler, and while the corollary to the current situation in the U.S. certainly exists, I don't think we are nearly in so bad a state because of some of the checks and balances that are in place. However, that is why you see so many people freaking out when things like the filabuster are attacked, or when federal life-time appointments (like Supreme Court seats) are made. These checks and balances are what have kept our country steadily becoming more free over time (abolishment of slavery, women's suffrage, desegregation) etc. We've also taken steps backward, and I think we are in one of those periodes now, but I think as long as we maintain the founder's checks and balances, eventually we will move forward again. . . the next major thing on the table will probably be gay marriage.

That is a very educated and rational post, bean. While at work (i'm home now) I dont really have time to elaborate on why communism, in theory, CAN work, but you did the job for me. Communism became a bad word in America in the twentieth century, and Joseph McCarthy was partially to blame. Why did America fear communism so much? They had court hearings, fingerpointings, outings of public officials...some was true and most was false. It was like America was looking for evil aliens posing in human clothing.

Oh my god that is the stupided post I've ever read. Kelegacy, your incredible lack of understanding history is actually amazing.

I didnt say they were the Kingdom of fucking Heaven. I said that they were a strong competitor with America not too long ago, and we feared them. That's what I meant and it's the truth. Unfortunately, American and USSR almost destroyed the world as a result of their hatred during the Cold War.

Not all communist governments have to be evil or freedom restricting. People leap to take advantage of a leaderless government and become all powerful. Here in America, billion dollar corporations rule the country. We have more freedom, but freedom comes at the price of a tax on every fucking thing we buy...or don't buy. Each year it seems like some new freedom is disappearing, like with the invention of the Patriot Act.

I didnt mean to start a whole fucking Holy War here, I only responded to some kid's innocent post about communism and I said it isnt evil and is actually fundamentally sound...on paper. Making a communist government successful and dictator free is the hard part. To fear communism is to be an insecure capitalist.

[Kelegacy]

Oh, I know. I've read lots of Rousseau, and I'm a political theory major, so this is something we discuss often.



Was that true in Russia, China, and many of the major communist countries we've seen in the world? Yes. Is that a requirement of communism? Not at all. Communism can exist with or without government being that involved.

Seriously, though, this is getting me pretty psyched to get back into my poli-theory classes. Woot.

Didn't Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress talk about how communism could lead to the perfect government? I dont think he actually came out and said that in those words though. I may be mistaken..it's been a long time.

And you are right: people over the course of history have abused communism and twisted it to their own advantage. The philosophy behind communism is different than how it is interpreted by some of the nations around the world today and in the past. But we are human, and humans love power. Corruption eventually wins.

[Kefkataran]

Didn't Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress talk about how communism could lead to the perfect government? I dont think he actually came out and said that in those words though. I may be mistaken..it's been a long time.

Possibly, haven't read that. But a lot of sci-fi stuff is interested in how communist, anarchist, or similar egalitarianism-based societies could work in reality. LeGuin's The Dispossessed is a very good one. Worth checking out if you haven't read it already.

[XenonCJ]

That is a very educated and rational post, bean. While at work (i'm home now) I dont really have time to elaborate on why communism, in theory, CAN work, but you did the job for me. Communism became a bad word in America in the twentieth century, and Joseph McCarthy was partially to blame. Why did America fear communism so much? They had court hearings, fingerpointings, outings of public officials...some was true and most was false. It was like America was looking for evil aliens posing in human clothing.Why did american's fear Communisum? Probably because owning private property, building wealth on success, freedom to choose your own direction in life and religion is what the United States was founded on. Communisum is almost precisly opposed to those ideals.


I didnt say they were the Kingdom of fucking Heaven. I said that they were a strong competitor with America not too long ago, and we feared them. That's what I meant and it's the truth. Unfortunately, American and USSR almost destroyed the world as a result of their hatred during the Cold War.

Not all communist governments have to be evil or freedom restricting. People leap to take advantage of a leaderless government and become all powerful. Here in America, billion dollar corporations rule the country. We have more freedom, but freedom comes at the price of a tax on every fucking thing we buy...or don't buy. Each year it seems like some new freedom is disappearing, like with the invention of the Patriot Act.

I didnt mean to start a whole fucking Holy War here, I only responded to some kid's innocent post about communism and I said it isnt evil and is actually fundamentally sound...on paper. Making a communist government successful and dictator free is the hard part. To fear communism is to be an insecure capitalist.You are so naive it's laughable. "corporations RULE THE WORLD!!!".... ahahahha last I checked, there wern't Coke-a-Cola SHOCKTROOPPERS forcing me to not drink Pepsi. You mention "they [the USSR] are disbanded now, but they used to be great!" Why do you think they are "disbanded" as you put it? They COLLAPSED. Why? Because communism is counter to human nature. Period. End of Story. You suck.

[bean19]

Kelegacy - "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" gave an example of a communist society on the moon. One that HAD to exist due to the conditions of needing to manage basic resources like water and air. Also, lay abouts and criminals soon found themselves murdered by the cavalier good citizens. Keep in mind, that the moon colonies all had independent governments and a loose "world" government that was more of an oligarchy (with the leaders being the prime cells of the revolution). So it was very convoluted. . . An oligarchy lead confederacy with several communist states among the colony-states.

"Atlus Shrugged" by Ayn Rand is a really good book with themes about the insufficiencies of communism. Also, "Animal Farm" by George Orwell discusses the early strengths and later weaknesses of communism.

It is pretty apparent from study that communism works well in extremely small societies, but that it fails in larger ones.

In reply to lots of posts that are ripping into Kefka and Kelegacy - I think you guys are replying to points that aren't being made by Kefka or Kel. They aren't strong proponents of communism, but are merely pointing out the demonization of the term in the United States.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

You are so naive it's laughable. "corporations RULE THE WORLD!!!".... ahahahha last I checked, there wern't Coke-a-Cola SHOCKTROOPPERS forcing me to not drink Pepsi. You mention "they [the USSR] are disbanded now, but they used to be great!" Why do you think they are "disbanded" as you put it? They COLLAPSED. Why? Because communism is counter to human nature.

So what is human nature?

[Xerxes]

Atleast they didn't re-package World of Warcraft and call it "Population Control"... China cares...

[Kelegacy]

Why did american's fear Communisum? Probably because owning private property, building wealth on success, freedom to choose your own direction in life and religion is what the United States was founded on. Communisum is almost precisly opposed to those ideals.


You are so naive it's laughable. "corporations RULE THE WORLD!!!".... ahahahha last I checked, there wern't Coke-a-Cola SHOCKTROOPPERS forcing me to not drink Pepsi. You mention "they [the USSR] are disbanded now, but they used to be great!" Why do you think they are "disbanded" as you put it? They COLLAPSED. Why? Because communism is counter to human nature. Period. End of Story. You suck.

Way to hold a civil discussion. Disband means to dissolve, break apart, etc. Collapse is pretty damned close. Dont get into semantics with me. I never said corporations ruled the world, but they are a key part in capitalism, thus they are a nigh untouchable powerhouse. Stop heckling like a lobotomized monkey and look up the meaning of some words. Here's a couple for you, by our good friends at Dictionary.com:

Capitalism: An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Communism: A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

There is no mention of evil Communist dictators. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I was defending communism as a philosophy; it's not inherently evil or corrupt. Neither is capitalism, but it can just as easily be tainted when human greed is involved, and with capitalism greed is unavoidable.

[Kelegacy]

So what is human nature?
Human nature is to be a Walmart zombie and consume. Consume, consumers. CONSUME!!

[Kefkataran]

"Atlus Shrugged" by Ayn Rand is a really good book with themes about the insufficiencies of communism.

I'm planning to read that soonish, although I'm far from a fan of Rand's theory.

Because communism is counter to human nature.

As someone else already mentioned, human nature is pretty arguable. Personally, I prefer to believe human nature is to be together as opposed to being apart.

[evilpenguin9000]

It's impossible to say that communism collapsed because it goes against human nature. The reason that the USSR collapsed was that communism couldn't keep up with the spending power of a competing capitalist state (i.e. the U.S.) intent on pushing the military envelope continuously.

Thus the Soviet Union failed because it couldn't outspend the U.S. or to paraphrase communism failed because there is no money in it.

[mister_slim]

Interestingly, Cuba now does a lot of cutting-edge medical research and also sends an insane amount of trained doctors overseas to do charity work. Of course, we have no way to tell how successful Cuba could have been, as the U.S. has been busily meddling there since day one.
Generally this escalates to the point where neither side can possibly have any affect on the other sides opinion because they're so idiotic about their beliefs.
fix-ed

[Kefkataran]

Well, some people would say that passion and idiocy go hand-in-hand. Then again, I prefer living passionately, so we'll gladly ignore those people.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I'm not arguing for or against it. I explained the motivation behind it and why MMOs need some fresh blood.

But who knows? Wait till someone in this country dies from one of those. Imagine the publicity that comes with the suit, and the witch-hunting Thompson! The MMO companies would deny responsibility so fast... It'd be in every user agreement, EULA or whatever they call it. Nothing would get done.

The ciggy companies still make a bundle. People die. Placing a restriction on certain things isn't a bad thing. Depends on how you do it, good can outweigh the bad, innovative things may even come out of the whole shebang. Marlboro lights sold better than red when I worked the register.

Hmm, I guess I don't understand your argument?
I'm not flaming (or trolling) or whatever else it is called, I'm just not seeing your point. You have stated that underage drinking is still rampant even though there are laws against it. Assisted suicide is illegal in some states...but people still assist others die. You state that once we have one person die in this country from overplaying videogames we will have a witch hunt, but no one actually has died from it in this country. The guy in Korea died while trying to break a record, maybe record breaking should have been made illegal instead?

My question to you is that if you realize that people will find ways of doing what they want to in many instances, why bother regulating something as relatively benign as videogame playing? Kids will get booze and people will help others dies despite the laws. Why bother making laws that restrict an individuals rights when it really only impacts a single individual (an in this case, a single individual in the world that I have heard of)? Maybe if you put an age limit on videogames playing per day, I'd understand or even go along with you. But to ban everyone from playing online, it seems a bit extreme. The Chinese government has a lot more flaws to worry about than its citizens enjoying themselves a bit too long on an MMO.

Does anyone else believe the money spent to create and enforce a law like this would be better served on education, homeless assistance or medical research? Or hell, humanitarian aid to another country?

Are you sure this story is legit?

[Kefkataran]

Does anyone else believe the money spent to create and enforce a law like this would be better served on education, homeless assistance or medical research? Or hell, humanitarian aid to another country?

Of course. Speaking of which, anyone hear about that hospital in England that used some money to buy some big fucking rock to place outside. This is a hospital that had been having problems with money for a long time... and they buy some rock instead of using it for something helpeful. Blegh.

[Thenetcase]

Human nature is the love of money and power.

If people did not have an innate desire for those two things, communism might work. It is a horrible form of government because the instant someone gets into power who is human it begins to decay to that persons advantage. Which basically means that it's not a form of government that will ever succeed on this planet.

-TNC-

[Kefkataran]

Human nature is the love of money and power.

Hello, gross oversimplification commonly believed and caused by being raised in a competitive capitalist society!

Tell that to the egalitarian, hunter-gatherer societies that had no positions of power and existed long before money. The only reason people right now have an "innate" desire for these things is because we're constantly told we do. Me, I believe we actual have the ability to control what we want.

[XenonCJ]

Human nature is to be a Walmart zombie and consume. Consume, consumers. CONSUME!!Stated like a true communist. You have revealed your colors and they are red. :)

[Kefkataran]

Ashamed moment of truth of the day:

My blood is red. :\

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Of course. Speaking of which, anyone hear about that hospital in England that used some money to buy some big fucking rock to place outside. This is a hospital that had been having problems with money for a long time... and they buy some rock instead of using it for something helpeful. Blegh.

Does this rock contain any medicinal properties?
Was this a gold rock?
At the very least tell me it was a big crack rock that they bough to take it off of the streets.

No medicinal purposes...ok. Not a crack rock...hmm, I understand. Not made of gold...yeah, gotcha. That officially was a waste of money.

[XenonCJ]

Hello, gross oversimplification commonly believed and caused by being raised in a competitive capitalist society!

Tell that to the egalitarian, hunter-gatherer societies that had no positions of power and existed long before money. The only reason people right now have an "innate" desire for these things is because we're constantly told we do. Me, I believe we actual have the ability to control what we want.Once again your utopian ideals do not match reality. How about your want for food? Water? Shelter? A mate? Basic needs, can you control those child?

In a communist society there is no motivation for people to even try to provide these basic needs to others more efficiently. Innovation becomes non-existent if everyone is treated the same regardless of skills, knowledge, and intelligence. Look at your same "hunter gatherers", the American Indian for example. They did real well against the Captilist powers from the west didn't they?

Also, even other mammals like lions and monkies know power, ever heard the term "Alpha-Male"? Money is nothing less than "power" in a portable easy to carry form.

[Kelegacy]

Stated like a true communist. You have revealed your colors and they are red. :)

You know, it could be true. I'm an American but I dont believe in everything we stand for sometimes. Sometimes I AM ashamed of our country, in our actions and our people--I hope that doesnt make me a traitor for saying that. I got into a conversation a month ago with a history buff, me being pessimistic as usual, and he called me a communist in jest. We started talking more and he said basically the same things we've talked about here: in an ideal world, communism would work. He's a capitalist at heart, but could appreciate the ideology of communism. Me, well I'm just a cynic. I'm not a commie and I know I take my American freedoms for granted every day, but I still feel that sometimes we Americans are fat lazy cows, consuming everything we can get our hands on (except brains--which we NEED more of).

I'm a cynic, not a commie. And Wal-Mart is evil. I'll fist-fight anyone who says otherwise. :cool:

[Kefkataran]

No medicinal purposes...ok. Not a crack rock...hmm, I understand. Not made of gold...yeah, gotcha. That officially was a waste of money.

Indeed.

Once again your utopian ideals do not match reality. How about your want for food? Water? Shelter? A mate? Basic needs, can you control those child?

Physical needs vs. psychological needs. Physically speaking, we need food, water, and shelter (on some level) to survive. The "need" for a mate can be controlled, actually, as millions of single people (including many single very much by choice and sometimes by profession such as priests or nuns) can tell you. Phsychological needs develop over time based on our atmosphere. I think we have some basic psychological needs that run through everyone, but nothing so complex as a lust for power.

In a communist society there is no motivation for people to even try to provide these basic needs to others more efficiently. Innovation becomes non-existent if everyone is treated the same regardless of skills, knowledge, and intelligence.

That's true in some communist societies. It certainly appears to be true in *some* respects with Soviet Russia, although there were, as others have said, many outside factors at play in that as well. But there's nothing saying it has to be true in all much less that human nature was to blame.

Look at your same "hunter gatherers", the American Indian for example. They did real well against the Captilist powers from the west didn't they?

Most American Indian tribes were not strict hunter-gatherer societies by the time we reached their shores. That said, yes, Capitalist powers decimated them. But they did perfectly fine on there own. Your argument there is simply that Capitalist countries will destroy them. That's true. That's given.

Also, even other mammals like lions and monkies know power, ever heard the term "Alpha-Male"?

There are things that seperate humans from animals. They include reason, logic, and empathy. By forming societies we got rid of much of our original animal nature. Most anthropologists will agree with this.

Again, I'm not saying communism is the way to go at all. I wouldn't support a communist regime at this point in time. But the view that struggling for power and competition is human nature, the idea that this stuff is innate within all human beings, is nothing but naive child's play. A utopia may not be possible, that I agree with. But if it isn't possible it's because of human flaws that we've developed on we're own, not something we're born with. That's just making excuses.

[XenonCJ]

You know, it could be true. I'm an American but I dont believe in everything we stand for sometimes. Sometimes I AM ashamed of our country, in our actions and our people--I hope that doesnt make me a traitor for saying that. I got into a conversation a month ago with a history buff, me being pessimistic as usual, and he called me a communist in jest. We started talking more and he said basically the same things we've talked about here: in an ideal world, communism would work. He's a capitalist at heart, but could appreciate the ideology of communism. Me, well I'm just a cynic. I'm not a commie and I know I take my American freedoms for granted every day, but I still feel that sometimes we Americans are fat lazy cows, consuming everything we can get our hands on (except brains--which we NEED more of).

I'm a cynic, not a commie. And Wal-Mart is evil. I'll fist-fight anyone who says otherwise. :cool:Wal-Mart is not evil.

[mister_slim]

In a communist society there is no motivation for people to even try to provide these basic needs to others more efficiently. Innovation becomes non-existent if everyone is treated the same regardless of skills, knowledge, and intelligence. Look at your same "hunter gatherers", the American Indian for example. They did real well against the Captilist powers from the west didn't they?
You feel no desire to give your neighbors a hand, unless they pay you? You have no desire to help your mother out, unless there is some financial reward? Your understanding of capitalism and marxism is very poor. There are numerous reasons to dismiss communism, but using inaccurate stereotypes is silly.

You do realize the groups that colonized the Americas generally functioned more as communal groups than as capitalist systems, right? Speaking of which, the Amish are an interesting example of combining communal and capitalist strategies.

[XenonCJ]

Indeed.



Physical needs vs. psychological needs. Physically speaking, we need food, water, and shelter (on some level) to survive. The "need" for a mate can be controlled, actually, as millions of single people (including many single very much by choice and sometimes by profession such as priests or nuns) can tell you. Phsychological needs develop over time based on our atmosphere. I think we have some basic psychological needs that run through everyone, but nothing so complex as a lust for power. So what do you do if someone else has the "power" to withhold water from you? Would you not want the "power" to take it from them? It's all quite simple, and you are wrong.





That's true in some communist societies. It certainly appears to be true in *some* respects with Soviet Russia, although there were, as others have said, many outside factors at play in that as well. But there's nothing saying it has to be true in all much less that human nature was to blame.Funny how you don't see walls around captilist democracies to keep people in eh? Funny how the ENTIRE Easter-Bloc of the Soviet Empire collapsed eh? Guess the people had nothing to do with it, just bad luck? Give me a break.



Most American Indian tribes were not strict hunter-gatherer societies by the time we reached their shores. That said, yes, Capitalist powers decimated them. But they did perfectly fine on there own. Your argument there is simply that Capitalist countries will destroy them. That's true. That's given.
That's not really the point now is it? Kind of gives new meaning to the phrase "Red Man"...



There are things that seperate humans from animals. They include reason, logic, and empathy. By forming societies we got rid of much of our original animal nature. Most anthropologists will agree with this.

Again, I'm not saying communism is the way to go at all. I wouldn't support a communist regime at this point in time. But the view that struggling for power and competition is human nature, the idea that this stuff is innate within all human beings, is nothing but naive child's play. A utopia may not be possible, that I agree with. But if it isn't possible it's because of human flaws that we've developed on we're own, not something we're born with. That's just making excuses. I think you misunderstand the meaning of "power". I'm not talking about ruling the world with an iron fist. It can be as simple as the power to choose your own religion, choose you own career path, choose where and what you want to eat, and own your own land..

[XenonCJ]

You feel no desire to give your neighbors a hand, unless they pay you? You have no desire to help your mother out, unless there is some financial reward? Your understanding of capitalism and marxism is very poor. There are numerous reasons to dismiss communism, but using inaccurate stereotypes is silly.

You do realize the groups that colonized the Americas generally functioned more as communal groups than as capitalist systems, right? Speaking of which, the Amish are an interesting example of combining communal and capitalist strategies.You are comparing "caring for your fellow man" with "creating an economic atmosphere for innovation". Not quite the same thing are they? NEXT.

[Kefkataran]

So what do you do if someone else has the "power" to withhold water from you? Would you not want the "power" to take it from them? It's all quite simple, and you are wrong.

See, it's that "You're wrong, I'm right, and I'm not going to acknowledge the possibility that this isn't anything more than a black or white issue, so fuck off" attitude that makes me completely lose respect for any opinions you might have presented. If someone had the power to withhold power from me, I would want the power to take it back because I need water. That doesn't mean I desire power. It means I desire water, and if power is a means to that, there is a good chance I might use power to achieve it. That's reasoning.

Funny how you don't see walls around captilist democracies to keep people in eh? Funny how the ENTIRE Easter-Bloc of the Soviet Empire collapsed eh? Guess the people had nothing to do with it, just bad luck? Give me a break.

I said there were other outside sources. I didn't say the Soviet Union didn't have its own failings. It had tons of them. I'm not a fan of communist Russia at all, and I think Lenin and Stalin perverted Marx/Engel's idea of communism a ridiculous amount. I would never suggest that the failure of the communist society wasn't their fault first most since what they morphed Russia into was barely even really communist in the end.

That's not really the point now is it?

Exactly what I'm saying. It wasn't anything to do with anything.You were trying to divert attention. And hunter-gatherer societies are egalitarian, but they're hardly communist.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "power". I'm not talking about ruling the world with an iron fist. It can be as simple as the power to choose your own religion, choose you own career path, choose where and what you want to eat, and own your own land..

And I think people should be given that, but I don't call that POWER. I call it free will/free choice. And any government that tries to take that away is wrong, period. But there's a huge difference between that and having power over others (obviously, since that's the very thing wrong with the majority of Communist governments that have sprouted up thusfar). The point I'm making is that communism does not have to be totalitarian. It has been almost 100% of the time in practice, but the original theory does not call for that.

Not quite the same thing are they? NEXT.

If you want to have an interesting discussion about communism where we trade off ideas and disagree, that's fine. I'm all up for that because it forces all of us to think and re-evaluate our ideas. But if you're going to be a dick about it like you continue to be, just fuck off already. It's not worth the time, because we're not here to change your ideas and you're certainly not going to change ours.

[bean19]

Kefka - I'm as grey as Gandalf on this issue. . . but there isn't much to talk about between you and I because of it.

Unrequested advice: If people are obstinant, then point out the fallacies instead of arguing your point in spite of the fallacies.

[XenonCJ]

See, it's that "You're wrong, I'm right, and I'm not going to acknowledge the possibility that this isn't anything more than a black or white issue, so fuck off" attitude that makes me completely lose respect for any opinions you might have presented. If someone had the power to withhold power from me, I would want the power to take it back because I need water. That doesn't mean I desire power. It means I desire water, and if power is a means to that, there is a good chance I might use power to achieve it. That's reasoning.
Obviously my opinions have an effect on you, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing your detailed rebuttal. You've painted yourself in a corner with your arguments and your trying to get out. I understand completely.



I said there were other outside sources. I didn't say the Soviet Union didn't have its own failings. It had tons of them. I'm not a fan of communist Russia at all, and I think Lenin and Stalin perverted Marx/Engel's idea of communism a ridiculous amount. I would never suggest that the failure of the communist society wasn't their fault first most since what they morphed Russia into was barely even really communist in the end. Outside sources... Like the successes of the West making the people inside the Soviet Union HATE thier system?



Exactly what I'm saying. It wasn't anything to do with anything.You were trying to divert attention. And hunter-gatherer societies are egalitarian, but they're hardly communist.
I was responding to that Kelegacy dude, and that's exactly what he was suggesting.



And I think people should be given that, but I don't call that POWER. I call it free will/free choice. And any government that tries to take that away is wrong, period. But there's a huge difference between that and having power over others (obviously, since that's the very thing wrong with the majority of Communist governments that have sprouted up thusfar). The point I'm making is that communism does not have to be totalitarian. It has been almost 100% of the time in practice, but the original theory does not call for that. Communism requires all land be state owned, and all of the economy directed centrally. That would never be possible in a democracy.



If you want to have an interesting discussion about communism where we trade off ideas and disagree, that's fine. I'm all up for that because it forces all of us to think and re-evaluate our ideas. But if you're going to be a dick about it like you continue to be, just fuck off already. It's not worth the time, because we're not here to change your ideas and you're certainly not going to change ours. Meh, I like countering people who get on thier high horse and pretend they know everything. Sometimes "being a dick" helps get the REAL thoughts out on the table. =)

[mister_slim]

You are comparing "caring for your fellow man" with "creating an economic atmosphere for innovation". Not quite the same thing are they? NEXT.
So, do you have any idea what you are arguing?

[XenonCJ]

So, do you have any idea what you are arguing?Yes, unlike you.

[Kefkataran]

Kefka - I'm as grey as Gandalf on this issue. . . but there isn't much to talk about between you and I because of it.

Unrequested advice: If people are obstinant, then point out the fallacies instead of arguing your point in spite of the fallacies.

I appreciate the advice. ;)

Obviously my opinions have an effect on you, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing your detailed rebuttal. You've painted yourself in a corner with your arguments and your trying to get out. I understand completely.

I didn't say they don't have an effect on me. It's just that the effect is disdain at your lack of respect for others opinions in such an opinion-based issue. I had a long response written out to this but I deleted it. Listen, as I said, I prefer to keep discussions like this based in actual discussion. Keep your personal insults away if you want to talk about this stuff. It's boring.

Outside sources... Like the successes of the West making the people inside the Soviet Union HATE thier system?

That's true of some Soviet people, but I wouldn't say all and not until later during the Soviet reign when stuff really started turning to shit. It's actually a weird truth, though, that many Soviet people really adored Stalin. Creepy stuff, if you ask me, but true.

Communism requires all land be state owned, and all of the economy directed centrally. That would never be possible in a democracy.

True, but it could be possible within the U.S.'s system. :) That said, communism requires that to a point only. I'm curious if you've read Marx's Communist Manifesto or any of his other writing?

Meh, I like countering people who get on thier high horse and pretend they know everything. Sometimes "being a dick" helps get the REAL thoughts out on the table.

I'm not pretending like I know everything. If I thought that were the case, I wouldn't even care about having a discussion on an internet forum with a guy who acts like a dick ocassionally. I think I know a good amount of political theory because I've been studying it pretty intensely for a year, but I still have lots to learn. Being a dick doesn't produce real thoughts, it produces anger at the person being a dick as opposed to real thoughts. So I'm always going to prefer discussing with people who respect others despite having differing opinions. And calling all my opinions not real thoughts is sort of insulting. What's not real about them?

The thing I'm afraid you're getting wrong here is where I stand on communism, so I'll repeat it once more. I am NOT a fan of communism. I do not think it would right now, and the cases in which I think it would work have incredibly high standards that would be near-impossible to reach. I think it's unlikely that a true communist utopia like the kind Marx imagined will ever exist, or at least certainly not in my lifetime. I'm simply pointing out that the extreme demonization of communism that you're displaying here is misplaced in my opinion. The Soviet Union was terrible, worse and worse the longer it went on. But the Soviet Union is far from what communism is and could be.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

So...
How about the Chinese government limiting MMO time...yup

[Blue]

So...
How about the Chinese government limiting MMO time...yup

No idea what you're talking about.

[Kefkataran]

So...
How about the Chinese government limiting MMO time...yup

China has a government?!

[mister_slim]

Yes, unlike you.
So why are you conflating aid, innovation and money?

[Kefkataran]

So why are you conflating aid, innovation and money?

China has a government?!

[Kelegacy]

China has a government?!

Wow this thread went south. I really should change my custom forum title to Thread Derailer. Sorry.

I'm backing out of this arguement slowly. Until I live in a communist country, I cant really say anything for sure. But I believe Marx had a good idea, like Kefkataran stated, but human beings tend to corrupt ideas and twist them for their own benefit. The Constitution is frequently being whored out as well. Good ideas but sometimes misconstrued and reinterpreted.

I'm not a self-loathing American. I just appreciate the freedoms of being FREE--I can observe and speak out when I think something isnt right. But alot of people will rip you apart for doing so. Like those Dixie Sluts.

The rest of the world views America much differently than we perceive ourselves. That concerns me sometimes.

[XenonCJ]

So why are you conflating aid, innovation and money?What part of "NEXT" don't you understand?

[mister_slim]

Did you read my title?

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Yes, I do agree that the Chinese government limiting MMO time could have an effect on developers making money on them...

[Kefkataran]

How big of a market has China been for MMOs? I mean, I know South Korea's been huge, but I didn't realize China has been that big.

[mister_slim]

Well, the MMO is one of the easier ways to avoid piracy, which is a huge problem in China. You have to offer more than just a disk to make any money.

[True]

I think there will be a way to find backdoor for this limiting program, so don't worry. :cool: The russian crackers know something, couse' they cracked HL2, 2 days before the official release. :p