PlayStation 3: What if...?

[Evil Avatar]

The reaction to Microsoft's dual pricing strategies for the Xbox 360 wasn't exactly what Microsoft was hoping for. What will gamers have to say about the PS3? This week's Game Over column on CNN/Money (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/24/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm) looks at the possibility that Sony might have been playing a high-stakes game of chicken, leading consumers (and Microsoft) to believe the PS3 will be incredibly expensive, while planning to stick with a $299 price all along. Did Microsoft, in fact, get suckered?

[Dirty Harry]

If this indeed is the case, all i have to say is once again you have all been chopped down by mighty Ken kutaragi blade of lies and deception. :D :D :D man i love that man.

[fitbabits]

The reaction to Microsoft's dual pricing strategies for the Xbox 360 wasn't exactly what Microsoft was hoping for. What will gamers have to say about the PS3? This week's Game Over column on CNN/Money (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/24/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm) looks at the possibility that Sony might have been playing a high-stakes game of chicken, leading consumers (and Microsoft) to believe the PS3 will be incredibly expensive, while planning to stick with a $299 price all along. Did Microsoft, in fact, get suckered?

That's an interesting point, and one which bears investigation. I don't know about MS getting suckered, though, because I foresee them dropping the price of the 'core' 360 should Sony announce a $299 price for the PS3. And it's yet to be determined just how many features will make it into the final PS3. Or should I say, how many features will be dropped?

[bKangy]

Surely Sony would be practically haemoragging cash at $299 a console?

[XxSATANxX]

PS3 $199 Dollars

[CrysDark]

Surely Sony would be practically haemoragging cash at $299 a console?


They all hemorage <sp> cash on the console. They make it up later when technology allows them to produce the parts at a fraction of the original (psONE, psTWO).

[thecrazyd]

PS3 $199 Dollars
With your track record, that can't be wrong!

[fitbabits]

PS3 $199 Dollars

Ahem, going by the absence of smileys in your post I can only assume you're being serious. If that's the case then I have a cutting from THE beanstalk tree I would like to sell you. $200 and it's yours - I'll even pay shipping. :rolleyes:

[Meatgortex]

PS3 has some expensive components in it, and Sony doesn't had the cash reserves that MS has to take a massive loss on each machine sold. They can take a loss, but not one large enough to get the price down to $299

$399 is probably a minimum price for the PS3.

[bapenguin]

This would totally rock...but I don't think it's going to happen. It's estimated the the PS3 will cost around 500 bucks to make right? Sony KNOWS the system is going to sell no matter what initially. They won't lose 200 bucks a box....

$349 is the new magical price point, something Microsoft missed bigtime.

[Tia]

or maybe... it is just one of Sony dirty little tricks? Let's make people believe that we are fooling them on the high price in order to screw ms with the prices... so then they will wait and not buy X360 believing that PS3 will be cheaper... but then PS3 will be higher in price but they already waited...

I think my head just explode. Personally I think all game media should take a big piece of tape and put it on it's mouth. Just wait and see how much everything cost, all these premonitions makes them look stupid.

[Abednigo]

If true, that's hilarious. MS getting suckered by Sony and shooting themselves in the foot. But certainly they will quickly redo their pricing scheme. But I bet Sony won't announce the official PS3 price until AFTER the X360 comes out.

[Ernst_Jager]

Sony will lie and tell us $299 until right before the release when they change it to $399-$499. They will see how well the $399 360 sells before they change the price. By saying it will be $299 they will hope to keep people from buying the 360 waiting for a PS3.

[Zanzibar]

Surely Sony would be practically haemoragging cash at $299 a console?

I agree. I really don't see how the PS3 can go for $299 without Sony printing its own money to buy the components with.

- Cell is gonna cost money. They've already spent BILLIONS on research and their shareholders want that money back.
- Blu-Ray drives DO NOT EXIST YET. I just talked with co-workers who went to the PS3 conference and nobody at Sony knows how fast the drives are because nobody there has seen one. Until they are mass-produced for YEARS, Sony isn't going to see the costs come down.
- The video chipset isn't free. Who the hell knows how much it's gonna cost per chip.

[Zanzibar]

$349 is the new magical price point, something Microsoft missed bigtime.

Agreed. Can't believe they just didn't give the fuckin' hard drive and wireless controller with a $349 price tag.

[CrysDark]

I agree with above, 349, and while we are wishing for things, lets have sony throw in the Hard Drive.

[JazGalaxy]

If this indeed is the case, all i have to say is once again you have all been chopped down by mighty Ken kutaragi blade of lies and deception. :D :D :D man i love that man.

Following that same line of reasoning, if the PS3 ISN'T 299, doesn't that mean YOU have been chopped down by believing Ken Kutaragi is anything but an mind addled gas bag?

[Klade]

PS3 has some expensive components in it, and Sony doesn't had the cash reserves that MS has to take a massive loss on each machine sold. They can take a loss, but not one large enough to get the price down to $299

$399 is probably a minimum price for the PS3.

I love posts like this. When you read the post it sounds like he actually knows what he's talking about... And then you realize.. wait a second its all just made up! :p

Personally I'm of the opinion that microsoft knew full well they were going to piss off the hardcore gamer and didn't give a shit cause the hardcore gamer will buy the system anyway. They will buy it cause it will be out a full year before the ps3.

The casual gamer doesn't even know whats going on and if you explained it to them they probably wouldn't care enough not to buy the system. They might ask something along the lines of "so Madden will still play on it?" or "when is halo 3 coming out?".

And the Japanese will wait a year and pay for the ps3 at whatever price sony asks because thats the system that will feature all the games that appeal to them. This isn't too hard to figure out.

[Tyrant]

$2 for the system and it'll come with a free, autographed, nude picture Ken Kutaragi standing in a bathtub with shampoo in his hair.

Ken: "WE TRICKED YOU GUYS GOOD! TEEHEEHEE!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP!!!!"

*Ken drops to the ground and convulses whilst laughing*

[StoneGut]

Even if the PS3 comes out at a $299 price point Microsoft will then lower their system to match it (or even beat it) and they'll still have a great x-mas behind then where they sold a crap load of systems for $399. Money money everywhere!

[Kelegacy]

I hope this is true. If it is, that's one of the greatest sneak attacks I've ever heard of in the history of videogame wars.

Plus I'm looking forward to the PS3 so 299 would be tit.

[Reanimated]

PS3 will be 20 dollars.

[bapenguin]

PS3 will be 20 dollars.

No...it'll be $19.99

[XxSATANxX]

PS3 will be 20 dollars.


Damn it now I have to clean up all that Diet coke I just spit up on my desk!

:D

[Evil Avatar]

Microsoft is getting almost a year lead on Sony and they are putting out a system at the "magic" $299.99 price point in time for Christmas. I don't think they are at all worried about what Sony will or will not do.

They are worried about getting their system into the hands of consumers before Sony's PS3 comes out knowing that the bulk of households who buy an Xbox 360 will never purchase the PS3.

[Dirty Harry]

Microsoft is getting almost a year lead on Sony and they are putting out a system at the "magic" $299.99 price point in time for Christmas. I don't think they are at all worried about what Sony will or will not do.

They are worried about getting their system into the hands of consumers before Sony's PS3 comes out knowing that the bulk of households who buy an Xbox 360 will never purchase the PS3.
OKay, to put it that way, you could say that when the xbox came out all the people on ps2 jumped ship and of course new people joined in. Who knows, second place this time might make sony pull an xbox and be loved.

[Dirty Harry]

$2 for the system and it'll come with a free, autographed, nude picture Ken Kutaragi standing in a bathtub with shampoo in his hair.

Ken: "WE TRICKED YOU GUYS GOOD! TEEHEEHEE!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP!!!!"

*Ken drops to the ground and convulses whilst laughing*
I'd buy that for a dollar.

[Roc Ingersol]

Price didn't help Nintendo. Why would it matter this time?

[Vandenh]

It is pretty obvious... Sony is suckering people into believing the PS3 will be a super computer. Then they will launch at 299$ and everybody will think they are buying a bargain, when in fact the PS3 is a piece of junk just like the PS2. Sony wins again?

Then again... maybe the PS3 will indeed be expensive... Sony cannot really beat MS in the end... just like the Borg... resistance is futile. :)

[Dirty Harry]

It is pretty obvious... Sony is suckering people into believing the PS3 will be a super computer. Then they will launch at 299$ and everybody will think they are buying a bargain, when in fact the PS3 is a piece of junk just like the PS2. Sony wins again?

Then again... maybe the PS3 will indeed be expensive... Sony cannot really beat MS in the end... just like the Borg... resistance is futile. :)
Ken Kutaragi says elsewise.

[kickmybum]

Then again... maybe the PS3 will indeed be expensive... Sony cannot really beat MS in the end... just like the Borg... resistance is futile. :)

Yeah, you can't beat MS. They own the world.

Sony should release at whatever price they want and not care about MS because all of the rabid MS haters will buy a PS3 no matter how much it costs.

:D

[crashedout]

Knowing Sony the PS3 will be 299.99 but something like the power supply you need to actually play the darn thing will be 99.99.

[rein]

Microsoft is getting almost a year lead on Sony and they are putting out a system at the "magic" $299.99 price point in time for Christmas. I don't think they are at all worried about what Sony will or will not do.

They are worried about getting their system into the hands of consumers before Sony's PS3 comes out knowing that the bulk of households who buy an Xbox 360 will never purchase the PS3.


And that right there is exactly why Microsoft fucked up with the two tier pricing scheme. If they had delivered on the wireless out of box and hard drive at the mentioned $349 price point it would have been genius.

Anyone that actually plays the games already know the "magic" $299.99 price point is a joke when you throw in the $40.00 memory card. They are the target customer for the $399 system right?

Now, throw in the limited number of the "magic" $299.99 consoles and they are forcing their own target customer for the $299 system into a waiting game. If little Timmy wants a 360 and mommy says, well... ..I will only buy you the cheaper one.. well.. she is going to be waiting until the cheaper one is in stock. Microsoft forced her to wait by giving her the option of a cheaper system that will be in short supply. Without that option she would have ponied up the extra $$ at the start.

So far I have had 2 canceled pre-orders and 2 people that planned on picking it up for release say they are going to wait. This in the last two days. Not to mention the confused guy this morning that could never grasp the concept of 2 different prices.

Customers want things easy. They don't want to be confused and they don't want to think. The more complicated you make things for them the longer it will take them to adopt. This gives Sony a chance to play catch up in the media.

Not to mention the press Sony will get at next years E3 and holiday season.

[The Iron Weasel]

I dunno you cant put that thing on the market for 299.99, you just can't especially since sony is WAY down in profits right now, they cant afford less then 399.99, but this is just one guys thinking, so take it with a grain of salt but mark my words the PS3 will not be less then 400

[Kelegacy]

Yeah, you can't beat MS. They own the world.

Sony should release at whatever price they want and not care about MS because all of the rabid MS haters will buy a PS3 no matter how much it costs.

:D

No, Wal-Mart owns the world. MS rents it.

And I'll buy a PS3 because it has the games and genres I want. The Xbox had the games I wanted this past round...but the PC had the same games I wanted with better resolution, graphics, etc, so I went with the PC versions.

I will buy a 360 once they change that gayass name to something decent. Or when i realize that upgrading my computer is stupid when I can play the same games on Xbox 3gaytee and save hundreds of dollars.

[JazGalaxy]

One thing that hasn't been said yet, is that Sony is an EMMENCELY proud company. Almost to the point of foolishness. This theory of lying about the PS3 as a grand form of trickery would mean Sony agknowledging that the 360 was a threat. A big enough threat for htem to not only be scared, but to resort to duplicitous means of circumvention.

I don't see that happening.

[Dracula-X]

I really can't see a core PS3 system coming in at less than $399 US.

If they do miraculously come in at $299, I'm just going to laugh my ass off... all day.

[Kamalot]

Sony might have been playing a high-stakes game of chicken, leading consumers (and Microsoft) to believe the PS3 will be incredibly expensive, while planning to stick with a $299 price all along. Did Microsoft, in fact, get suckered?

This wouldn't be the first time this happened, but the third. The first happened when Sega launched the Saturn at $399 and Sony came in at $299. The second time was when Sega released the Dreamcast and everyone was told that the PS2 would be a multimedia hub supercomputer of the home. I remember people expecting prices up to $700 for the PS2 only to have the emotion engine in your home for the magic price of $299.

Microsoft was hornswaggled.

[dr_wily]

George Broussard Is Going To Make You His Bitch
3dRealms - I BELIVE!
I talked to georgie the other day.
Quake 4 is going to be the next Halo killer ;)


hmm i see a mispell there

[Roc Ingersol]

And that right there is exactly why Microsoft fucked up with the two tier pricing scheme. If they had delivered on the wireless out of box and hard drive at the mentioned $349 price point it would have been genius.
Why? Those people don't need wireless out of the box, nor a harddrive. They'll pick up an overpriced memory pack for $40 and they'll get, basically, your $350 price. Considering what they'll use it for.

Microsoft's goal is to reach all those people who only buy a couple games. And they need that dirt cheap barebones box to do it. Wireless controllers are one more hassle that crowd doesn't even want. And having a HD compared to memory cards last round didn't particularly help Microsoft with that broader userbase.

Microsoft saying they'll stock more of the $400 packages than the $300 packages is just further PR speak along the lines of them telling us all there'd be a harddrive in the 360. They're just trying to dampen the negative reactions of the hardcore.

Their initial shipment might be titled toward $400 packages. But the $300 is going to be the big mover. And it'll be what they're banking on producing more of during the season.

[JazGalaxy]

This wouldn't be the first time this happened, but the third. The first happened when Sega launched the Saturn at $399 and Sony came in at $299. The second time was when Sega released the Dreamcast and everyone was told that the PS2 would be a multimedia hub supercomputer of the home. I remember people expecting prices up to $700 for the PS2 only to have the emotion engine in your home for the magic price of $299.

Microsoft was hornswaggled.

I think the whole Saturn/PS thing was purely serrendipitous. They never tricked Sega into thinking their unit was going to be cheaper, it just turned out that way.

As for the PS2, Sony really did think their unit was going to do all the crap they said about it. Aside from the blatant lies about what it was capable of, they would very much like you to use it for internet/movies/cd's/games/ and eye chat crapola functions.

People give Sony credit for DOING something to get where they are. I think it just worked out that way. if they were anyone else, they would have had the same result. A history of the game industry for the last 15 years doesn't read a number of great decisions by sony so much as it reads as a number of BAD decisions by everyone else.

The single most vaunted aspect of the PS dynasty is it's third party support. How does that have anything to do with sony? That's like saying the greatest quality about you is how cool your friends are.

[Spooky]

I love posts like this. When you read the post it sounds like he actually knows what he's talking about... And then you realize.. wait a second its all just made up! :p

Personally I'm of the opinion that microsoft knew full well they were going to piss off the hardcore gamer and didn't give a shit cause the hardcore gamer will buy the system anyway. They will buy it cause it will be out a full year before the ps3.

The casual gamer doesn't even know whats going on and if you explained it to them they probably wouldn't care enough not to buy the system. They might ask something along the lines of "so Madden will still play on it?" or "when is halo 3 coming out?".

And the Japanese will wait a year and pay for the ps3 at whatever price sony asks because thats the system that will feature all the games that appeal to them. This isn't too hard to figure out.

Microsoft
Total Cash (mrq): 37.75B

Sony
Total Cash (mrq): 3.03B

I don't know what you're talking about, but his numbers are correct. I'm not certain enough of the figures of console price/cost disparity to know if Sony can "absorb the costs of a $299 system" but his reference to the drastic disparity in Cash assets of the two companies is completely accurate. Don't even get my started on the difference( of the two companies ) in market capitalization and enterprise value. Financially speaking Sony doesn't even play in Microsoft's sandbox. Sony competes with an ARM of Msft, and does so, some would say, desperately.


Sourced from:
Sony (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=SNE)
Microsoft (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MSFT)

[Atorak]

Well, I might be throwing this one out of left field, but humor me folks:

Sony does NOT have a price set for the PS3.

Believe me, I'm sure they've been batting everything from $249.99 - $599.99 around the board room. But, why should this gigantic company, with hundreds of millions of dollars invested in a product, jump the gun before they have to? Honestly, when Microsoft hits the ground running in November, and if they start selling $399.99 packages by the truckload well through the holiday season into next year, Sony would be silly to release their product for anything less than $399.99 (for a comperable package, of course). Why would they do such a thing, the market obviously considers that an acceptable price point.

Yet, on the other side, if Microsoft comes out with the X360 in November, and it is selling like absolute dogshit, then Sony will be quick to lower their prices below Microsoft. Sony's price for the PS3 will almost solely depend on how the X360 sells during its first few months. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean that Sony's creative marketing team won't be releasing little tidbits of potentially misleading information here and there, in order to steal some thunder from the XBox 360. They want to make people save their money for the PS3, because a good portion of the market probably cannot afford both systems.

</making sense> :)

[novicius]

I will buy a 360 once they change that gayass name to something decent. Or when i realize that upgrading my computer is stupid when I can play the same games on Xbox 3gaytee and save hundreds of dollars.
Wow. Your intellectual might will be missed on XBL. :rolleyes:

[Chandler]

google will unite with sony and google will price down the PS3 in return for in-game google ads.

[rein]

Why? Those people don't need wireless out of the box, nor a harddrive. They'll pick up an overpriced memory pack for $40 and they'll get, basically, your $350 price. Considering what they'll use it for.

Microsoft's goal is to reach all those people who only buy a couple games. And they need that dirt cheap barebones box to do it. Wireless controllers are one more hassle that crowd doesn't even want. And having a HD compared to memory cards last round didn't particularly help Microsoft with that broader userbase.

Microsoft saying they'll stock more of the $400 packages than the $300 packages is just further PR speak along the lines of them telling us all there'd be a harddrive in the 360. They're just trying to dampen the negative reactions of the hardcore.

Their initial shipment might be titled toward $400 packages. But the $300 is going to be the big mover. And it'll be what they're banking on producing more of during the season.

Where do you get your information for the ratio of consoles Microsoft is producing? I only ask because I was told yesterday (by MS rep) that there will not be many of the core consoles available for the holidays.

The reason "Why?" I speak to the very customers Microsoft is targeting on a daily basis. I know what reaction they are giving me in person not on a message board. Let me re-emphasize this.....

Customers want things easy. They don't want to be confused and they don't want to think. The more complicated you make things for them the longer it will take them to adopt. This gives Sony a chance to play catch up.

The $350 was just a compromise on a price point. Personally I think they would have been better off even at a $399.99 price point and no choice. You can't confuse casual customers if you want them to adopt early.

Also, you're kind of contradicting yourself here.

Microsoft saying they'll stock more of the $400 packages than the $300 packages is just further PR speak along the lines of them telling us all there'd be a harddrive in the 360. They're just trying to dampen the negative reactions of the hardcore.

Why would Microsoft want to soften the blow to us? We are already buying the $400 system. If anything, they should be reassuring the mass market that they want to appeal to with cheaper system that there will be plenty of those available. They shouldn't be PR speaking the opposite.

[Zeal]

If Sony does in fact price the PS3 at $299.

OVER...THE CONSOLE WAR....IS....

[Rangoth]

Sony and Microsoft are going down for Atari shall return with the Jaguar 2 :)

[RicoSuave77]

Ken Kutaragi says elsewise.
Ken Kutaragi says a lot of things.

[RicoSuave77]

If Sony does in fact price the PS3 at $299.

OVER...THE CONSOLE WAR....IS....

Except MS will quickly follow suit, dropping the Core to $249 or $199, and the super hyper expanded version to $299.

[Zanzibar]

If Sony does in fact price the PS3 at $299.

OVER...THE CONSOLE WAR....IS....

Gonna say it again, I firmly believe that the X360 games will look better than the PS3 games AT THE TIME OF the PS3 release.

Just as the games got better looking after the first year of the Xbox and the PS3, as developers learn more about the hardware and what it can do, they will be really flexing the muscles of the X360 just as the PS3 hits the market.

If Microsoft drops the price of the $399 bundle to $299 or even $269, AND has Halo 3 on the shelves, they'll do well against a $299 PS3.

But I still believe that the PS3 will be $399. Without a HDD.

If Sony drops Blu-Ray support - which they won't - then it might make $299.

[Mrbunchypants]

so where can one buy just the console?

EB has bundles LINKAGE (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/systems/xbox360/)

Anyone have a link of where I can buy just a core system?

[LiquidRain]

Whatever happened to the predictions of the $300 and $400 PSP?

Oh right...

[Liquidize105]

Man I'm so zZz by all this speculation. If Sony does a 299, it's only better for me. I don't care about either of those companies.

so where can one buy just the console?

EB has bundles LINKAGE (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/systems/xbox360/)

Anyone have a link of where I can buy just a core system?
Yeah, move those chicken legs so they'll get you to a store and preorder the thing.

[Zeal]

Microsoft underestimates Sony's marketing potential. They've proven time and time again to be masters at what they do.

As for Halo 3, it's already been confirmed to launch in the summer of 2007 to coincide with the movie, so mark that out. Considering this, if Sony launches the PS3 slightly after the 360, has a few killer apps (a FF, MGS, etc.) and prices the unit at $299/$349, then Microsoft is gonna have a serious problem.

Coupled with the fact that 360 is launching with no major releases, (this is arguable, I know, but I don't see another Halo) Microsoft would be forced to drop the price early, at the risk of appearing to play catchup with Sony. Consumers will note this.

I expect both systems to be priced very close to one another; a $50 difference at most. At this point, it comes down to the games, namely exclusives like FF13, MGS4, Halo 3 and GTA.

[ElectricMonk]

- Blu-Ray drives DO NOT EXIST YET. I just talked with co-workers who went to the PS3 conference and nobody at Sony knows how fast the drives are because nobody there has seen one. Until they are mass-produced for YEARS, Sony isn't going to see the costs come down.


can't you currently buy blu-ray recorders in japan?

as for the old 360 vs sony if you watched that carmack speech a while back he seemed to think from a developer standpoint the 360 was doing everything right, because it had very developer friendly tools, and the ps3 has an assembler.

there is something to be said for sony's confidence/pride when it comes to marketing. everything ms says comes off as 'the 360 should be a contender' while everything sony says is 'the ps3 will destroy all, and can make muffins with the forthcoming periphials'. take the whole backwards compatibility thing, the ps2 isn't fully compatible with all ps1 games but they never warned people about that ahead of time. and nobody made a big deal about it. (i'm sure that one guy who couldn't play his imported dating sims complained loudly) but mass confusion ensued with ms's limited compatibility announcement.

but who knows. maybe ms has that whole 'treat em mean keep em keen' mindset towards consumers. as long as they're confused and thinking about you, they're still thinking about you and that's half the battle.

[bobbler]

Microsoft

Total Cash (mrq): 37.75B

Sony
Total Cash (mrq): 3.03B

I don't know what you're talking about, but his numbers are correct. I'm not certain enough of the figures of console price/cost disparity to know if Sony can "absorb the costs of a $299 system" but his reference to the drastic disparity in Cash assets of the two companies is completely accurate. Don't even get my started on the difference( of the two companies ) in market capitalization and enterprise value. Financially speaking Sony doesn't even play in Microsoft's sandbox. Sony competes with an ARM of Msft, and does so, some would say, desperately.


Sourced from:
Sony (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=SNE)
Microsoft (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MSFT)


Not to bash Yahoo's financial site, but I don't think their information is correct (at least not correct in what they think Cash actually means) and doesn't seem very up to date (it doesn't say when the information is from -- at least I didn't see it).

Take a peak at Hoovers:

Microsoft (http://www.hoovers.com/microsoft/--ID__14120,period__Q--/free-co-fin-balance.xhtml)
Sony (http://www.hoovers.com/sony/--ID__41885,period__Q--/free-co-fin-balance.xhtml)

This isn't so say Microsoft is in bad shape or anything -- that isn't true, they've just been spending a lot more recently (apparently) -- their liabilities are a lot less than Sony's, thats for sure.

Judging a companies success based on their cash on hand is a bit silly -- it fluctuates a great deal over a year.

Another thing to think about is the actual money supply the divisions have -- Just because microsoft may at some point have 10+ billion in cash doesn't mean Microsoft's Xbox division gets to spend all of that, quite the contrary (and I wouldn't say Microsoft is willing to lose money this time around). I'd put money on Sony's Playstation division having a bit more money to spend than Microsoft's Xbox division (a lot of that has to do with Sony depending on Playstation more than Microsoft depends on Xbox for company success).

Things aren't always so cut and dry.

[Zanzibar]

can't you currently buy blu-ray recorders in japan?


Yes! And you can have one for the low, low price of $3,875! (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-Blu-Ray-High-Definition-DVD-Recorder-Player-Blue_W0QQitemZ5799532876QQcategoryZ71581QQssPageNa meZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

I was talking about the read-only drives that Sony is building for the PS3, but you're right, I should have been more specific.

The point is, it's gonna be expensive.

[Alexious]

At this point, it comes down to the games, namely exclusives like FF13, MGS4, Halo 3 and GTA.
Exactly. I've said more than once on this board that, when it comes to technology, the vast majority of consumers don't care about any of this stuff we are discussing. All it takes is one "killer app" and the technology will sell.

It was true when early spreadsheet programs caused businesses to adopt the PC as a work platform. It's been true for every generation of video game machines (Super Mario Bros./NES won the 8-bit war, Tetris/Gameboy won the first handheld war... the list goes on). It will be true for the PS3/XBox360/Rev. war also.

[Murmillo]

It was somebody on this thread who said it. But it went like this:

Marketing lesson #101 by Sony:
Market your product as a high luxury. Spread the word it will be expensive ($1000) but very well worth the price (aka best on the market).

Then "announce" the real pricepoint - $349.

SHOCK BOOM BANG

"Whoa! What a steal! And they were saying 3 months earlier it will go down for $999!"

[Roc Ingersol]

Where do you get your information for the ratio of consoles Microsoft is producing? I only ask because I was told yesterday (by MS rep) that there will not be many of the core consoles available for the holidays.
That's the PR line. Yeah. What I'm doing, is interpolating. It's like speculating, but it's mostly about removing layers of bullshit, rather than conjuring them up.
Microsoft wants to 'touch' a Billion people. They want to grow the market. They want to take over your living room.

They don't need a harddrive to do that. They don't need wireless controllers if it means someone has to worry about plugging their controller in to charge it.

Microsoft will churn out whichever flavor sells better. I'm guessing it'll be the $300.

The reason "Why?" I speak to the very customers Microsoft is targeting on a daily basis. I know what reaction they are giving me in person not on a message board.
Then you'd know they don't give a crap about the wireless controllers and charging the things, don't care about the 'missing' harddrive, and are going to end up paying $10 less than your 'perfect' price.

I'm a bit iffy on Microsoft's actual target market even thinking about the product at this point, much less preordering. But I'm taking your word for it.

Customers want things easy. They don't want to be confused and they don't want to think.
They don't have to. They have all sorts of choices when they pick out TVs or DVD players too. They manage. Most just pick the cheaper box. That still applies.

The $350 was just a compromise on a price point. Personally I think they would have been better off even at a $399.99 price point and no choice. You can't confuse casual customers if you want them to adopt early.
$400's unproven. If you try the $400 price, and if it fails, you just flubbed your lead. That's much more dangerous than holding onto the fallback. The NES first launched with 'the cheap one' and 'the one loaded with goodies'. It didn't slow a damn thing down and people knew less back then.

Why would Microsoft want to soften the blow to us?
Because we're fairly influential. That's why they're still telling us how important we are. Our casual gamer friends look to us to educate them on brands.

If anything, they should be reassuring the mass market that they want to appeal to with cheaper system that there will be plenty of those available. They shouldn't be PR speaking the opposite.
The mass market isn't hearing any of this. All they know, at best, is that there's a choice between $300 and $400.

[mister_slim]

I'm sure right around the 360 launch we'll start seeing early PS3 videos.

[rein]

That's the PR line. Yeah. What I'm doing, is interpolating. It's like speculating, but it's mostly about removing layers of bullshit, rather than conjuring them up.

So you are saying you are just as full of bullshit as the rest of us?

I have no idea what Microsoft plans to do down the road. I know a while back I read that they eventually plan to do away with the hard drive all together. That is why I am a bit confused about the number of hard drive units I will have at launch vs the very few number of core systems I will have (14:1 ratio at this moment). Like I said, the customers that are not going to pony up a full $400 will be waiting for the $300 systems to be in stock. That just goes for the customers that know they are not going to pay $400, not the ones holding off because of confusion.

when you say that people make choices about dvd players and they survive... ..yes, true. But when they go buy a dvd player EVERY dvd released will play on that brand of dvd player. What Microsoft is doing is adding even more confusion to their game system buying decision. Not only do they have to chose which system will have what exclusive game title available. Now they have to decide if they need a hard drive version (that may or may not have games come out in the future that require it, like FFXI) or if they can just settle for the core system. IMO, not a good option when you are trying to gain a market share.

Every person that waits now for whatever reason is a potential customer lost once the Sony hype machine rolls out next year.

[Rangoth]

Just because PS3 uses Blue-Ray does not mean people will adopt it.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

so where can one buy just the console?

EB has bundles LINKAGE (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/systems/xbox360/)

Anyone have a link of where I can buy just a core system?

I know its archaic, but if you go into a Best Buy, Target, Wal-Mart or even Gamerush/Gamecrazy you can pre-order bundleless. I'd forget about EB/Gamestop. They don't force bundle if you walk into the stores, but they have already sold all of their pre-orders.

MS will do fine in North America. Americans are notorious instant gratification junkies. I don't like the two tiered launch (I understand it, but don't like it) and I'm buying a 360. This just ensures that I will seriously consider the PS3 when it comes out.

Oh yeah, I just read in this months EGM that Bioware is working on a PS3 exclusive title. That hurts a little.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Gonna say it again, I firmly believe that the X360 games will look better than the PS3 games AT THE TIME OF the PS3 release.

Just as the games got better looking after the first year of the Xbox and the PS3, as developers learn more about the hardware and what it can do, they will be really flexing the muscles of the X360 just as the PS3 hits the market.

If Microsoft drops the price of the $399 bundle to $299 or even $269, AND has Halo 3 on the shelves, they'll do well against a $299 PS3.

But I still believe that the PS3 will be $399. Without a HDD.

If Sony drops Blu-Ray support - which they won't - then it might make $299.

I really don't think that will be the case graphically. There will be a great deal of multi system games which will make the PS3 and Xbox look equal. Then, you have the games which PS3 has been developing now. They have a target of what they need to look better than. Sony will tell these developers to make their games look better than the 360's. That is one benefit of going second, you know how high the bar has been set.

The ugliest (albeit one of the only) game I have seen so far for PS3 is that stupid looking game from Sega Fifth Phantom Saga. But everybody knows Sega has been living off of our nostalgia for years. They haven't put out a worthwhile game in years.

Regardless if you are for or against the dual sku, let me just say this: If you are looking to capture sizeable marketshare from a proven leader, this is not the best reception to have before your system is even out on the market.

[Dirty Harry]

George Broussard Is Going To Make You His Bitch
3dRealms - I BELIVE!
I talked to georgie the other day.
Quake 4 is going to be the next Halo killer ;)


hmm i see a mispell there
You done with your pathetic attempt at grammar nazism?. Join the club that have told me of the spell errors.

[Rangoth]

I assume you have a Masters in English then?

Yeah, thats what I thought.

[Deathbane27]

As for Halo 3, it's already been confirmed to launch in the summer of 2007 to coincide with the movie

Confirmed my fat ass. Bungie was still working on the second Halo 2 map pack when Gates spouted out that bullshit at E3 about it being ready by PS3's release, which was initially estimated for 2006. Bungie STILL hasn't announced their next project. </NewsFlash> Microsoft may own Bungie, but you know what they'll get if they actually try to make them push something out in a year and a half? A buggy heap of fermenting maggot vomit, just like the rest of Microsoft's software. </bashing>

Killer apps don't sell consoles until they are released.

[Zeal]

Confirmed my fat ass. Bungie was still working on the second Halo 2 map pack when Gates spouted out that bullshit at E3 about it being ready by PS3's release, which was initially estimated for 2006. Bungie STILL hasn't announced their next project. </NewsFlash> Microsoft may own Bungie, but you know what they'll get if they actually try to make them push something out in a year and a half? A buggy heap of fermenting maggot vomit, just like the rest of Microsoft's software. </bashing>

Killer apps don't sell consoles until they are released.

Besides the fact that it was revealed a few days ago the game would launch to coincide with the release of the movie, dumbshit.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4751

A buggy heap of fermenting maggot vomit, just like the rest of Microsoft's software. </bashing>

Oh, you mean like Halo 2? I can only pray it is outsourced to another developer (ala Marathon: Infinity) and that Bungie has no involvement. Preferably Alexander Seropian of Wideload, the original creator of Halo.

[Murmillo]

As for the map pack, it doesn't take all 100+ (or how many) people at bungie working on a map. Once you have the game inplace, 5-10 people can turn out a new map a week, sent it down to get play tested for a yay or na. Maps out of the whole game, are the easiest to make. Its either making a storyline fit a map, or a map fit a story line that is hard. But if all your doing is making a multiplayer mappack, 10 people is all you really need. The rest of the crew can get started on the codeing of Halo3 for the 360.

[KNOTE]

I guarantee you Ken is going "let me sell it for 299 and we'll make them look like fools" and the accountants are saying "you're crazy, ken. you have to sell it for 399" my guess is the 349 price point will be the winner.

[Deathbane27]

Besides the fact that it was revealed a few days ago the game would launch to coincide with the release of the movie, dumbshit.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4751


You mean this bit?

The story also hints that Microsoft may launch "a new Halo game" at the same time the movie is released.
(Or, straight from the article that the site quotes...)
If possible, Microsoft and U will synchronize a game and movie release to take advantage of cross-marketing.

(Quotes and highlighting added.)

Wow, a hint of a possiblitity! That's straight from the DEVELOPERS instead of the clueless PUBLISHER too! And it even guarantees that the "new Halo game" is Halo 3, and not a graphically-updated version of Halo 2 or a fricken trading card game! What a dumbshit I am! Of course that's confirmation! </sarcasm>

Pay attention to what you read. I did, and that's why I said it wasn't confirmed instead of asking for a link to your source.

Oh, you mean like Halo 2? I can only pray it is outsourced to another developer (ala Marathon: Infinity) and that Bungie has no involvement.

Microsoft is not Bungie; Bungie is not Microsoft, "dumbshit". I'm not insulting Bungie, I'm insulting Microsoft. There's a difference. Microsoft owns Bungie. Microsoft funds Bungie then takes Bungie's profits. Microsoft does not (yet) make Bungie's games for them. Bungie wasn't forced by Microsoft into rushing Halo or Halo 2. Microsoft didn't dip their hands into Bungie Studios and start pushing. Do you think we'll get a game as good as Halo or Halo 2 if the publisher gives the developer a tight deadline when development has barely begun, if it even has? I sure don't.

Like I said, confirmed my fat ass.

[MrMeatshake]

No...it'll be $19.99

maybe i can use my 99p coin (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/23/99_pence_coin/).

[Roc Ingersol]

So you are saying you are just as full of bullshit as the rest of us?
Everyone involved is full of shit. You're taking the word of PR reps who've already misled repeatedly. I don't see their shit being preferable to what we can see between the lines.

At this point, I have no reason to believe any ratio the PR reps spew. Furthermore, the initial delivery is moot. Microsoft will stock what sells. It doesn't matter how many of each are on shelves. Retailers will replenish whichever boxes move.

I know a while back I read that they eventually plan to do away with the hard drive all together. That is why I am a bit confused about the number of hard drive units I will have at launch vs the very few number of core systems I will have (14:1 ratio at this moment).
14:1 for your initial shipment. Do you think they're going to force that ratio on you for re-orders?

And I don't think they plan on 'getting rid' of the hard-drive. I think they merely expect that more people will buy the base unit. This is consistent with what I'm saying: the harddrive is there for the hard core crowd. They don't really care about it anymore, because the hardcore crowd isn't their target market. We're a stepping stone. Once we've bought in, casuals follow, and they don't care about the hard drive. It fades away.

Like I said, the customers that are not going to pony up a full $400 will be waiting for the $300 systems to be in stock.
I absolutely agree with that statement.

That just goes for the customers that know they are not going to pay $400, not the ones holding off because of confusion.
Who's holding off because of confusion? Holding off from what? The mass market doesn't pre-order. They make their decision when they see it in a store.

when you say that people make choices about dvd players and they survive... ..yes, true. But when they go buy a dvd player EVERY dvd released will play on that brand of dvd player.
Yep. And Sony, for instance, has many more than one model of DVD player. People who only buy Sony electronics have myriad choices even within a more narrow brand (e.g. Trinitron).
If someone's looking for an XBox, they've picked their brand. 2 models aren't complicating things.

Not only do they have to chose which system will have what exclusive game title available. Now they have to decide if they need a hard drive version (that may or may not have games come out in the future that require it, like FFXI) or if they can just settle for the core system. IMO, not a good option when you are trying to gain a market share.
I doubt any mass market player is worried about HD-required games. Worst case: they'll buy the base system day 1, and consider a 'hard-drive required' FFXI just like they did with the PS2's FFXI. Some might buy, some might not.

The packaging is going to hype how the harddrive ties into their 'digital lifestyle'. It won't even mention that some games might need it.

[MrMeatshake]

blah

is that an enormous post, or are you just pleased to see us? oh, it's an enormous post.

seriously, though: that's not a post, it's a novel! you should try selling it through a micropayment system (http://corp.bitpass.com/marketplace/).

[rein]

Ric

All I can tell you is for about 45 hours a week I stand in a store listening to the very customers Microsoft is targeting with this system. They are confused and that is not interpolating or speculating. That is fact. In my area at least they are backing off in a big way. Not the best way to start out taking over the world.

There is never a time when confusion is a good thing... ..well... ...unless you are a snake oil salesman.

[MrMeatshake]

There is never a time when confusion is a good thing...

*boom* some clarity. thanks, rein.

EDIT:
...unless you are a snake oil salesman

yeah, *** have never sold any of that.
/me sneers.

[Roc Ingersol]

is that an enormous post, or are you just pleased to see us? oh, it's an enormous post.
I know, words are scary; particularly when grammar is respected. I apologize.

And rein, I might understand a mass market consumer being confused if they know there's two versions and nothing else. But it's not brain surgery. The packaging is going to make it crystal clear to them that there's no real difference. And then they'll decide based on price.

I just can't imagine a customer walking into a store intending to buy a 360 - looking at the two boxes - and being confused to the point of walking out of the store without either one.

It doesn't happen in any other sector of electronics.
It didn't happen any other time a choice of console bundles was put in front of consumers.

[netcraazzy]

Honestly guys, the idea of offering a core system and a deluxe package isn't new to the console industry. Like somebody else posted the NES launched with 2 bundles, so did the SNES and Genesis and N64. I think Playstation was one of the first consoles to come out without some sort of a deluxe bundle. There are some differences with the 360 bundles. It used to be that the deluxe bundle had the major launch game included, with 360 you just get more peripherals.

I'm kind of on the fence at the moment in regards to which bundle to get. I was really excited about the potential uses for the harddrive but that was when I thought everybody was getting it, now I'm not sure. The price isn't exactly easy to swallow either but at least I was somewhat prepared for that. I'm really tempted to cancel my pre-order and wait for the PS3 to launch so I can see if microsoft drops the price.

[Kelegacy]

Honestly guys, the idea of offering a core system and a deluxe package isn't new to the console industry. Like somebody else posted the NES launched with 2 bundles, so did the SNES and Genesis and N64. I think Playstation was one of the first consoles to come out without some sort of a deluxe bundle. There are some differences with the 360 bundles. It used to be that the deluxe bundle had the major launch game included, with 360 you just get more peripherals.

I'm kind of on the fence at the moment in regards to which bundle to get. I was really excited about the potential uses for the harddrive but that was when I thought everybody was getting it, now I'm not sure. The price isn't exactly easy to swallow either but at least I was somewhat prepared for that. I'm really tempted to cancel my pre-order and wait for the PS3 to launch so I can see if microsoft drops the price.

That's pretty much how I feel. I know for a fact that I wont get a 360 until after the PS3 is out, and I probably wont pick up a PS3 until many months after its release. Still, i was so excited for the 360, but now i just dont really care. Maybe my tune will change with time...

[rein]

Yes, other consoles have launched with bundles but they were a different form of a bundle. If you bought one version you got a game and another controller. If you bought the other you didn't. Not a problem because which ever bundle you purchased you would be guaranteed playability of every other game that came out.

Here is where the confusion comes in with the 360 bundles. Nobody knows exactly how important that hard drive will be down the road. It could become very important and everyone will want one, or it could become useless. There is a major difference in offering a bundle with an extra controller or game vs a bundle that may or may not have a necessary piece of hardware. That is why the dvd comparison, the other bundle comparison and other consumer electronic comparisons do not work here.

I will leave it at this.... ..I owned my own store for 6 years and have worked in retail for other companies for about 12 years. That is about 18 years of retail sales experience. In my experience there are 3 things that determine you getting a sale on a product.

1. price
2. availability
3. simplicity

MS has not managed to escape any of these in some form with their 2 tier pricing scheme. They have one in the $400 price range, will have a shortage on the other at launch and they have managed to create confusion with the hard drive vs non hard drive versions.

I don't think it is the end of the Xbox/360 and they will sale out during the holidays with ease. It's the holidays and it is a new system.. ..it's a guaranteed sale out. I just think this has created a situation where more people will take the wait and see what Sony does option. Now if Sony comes out with a $500 system or something stupid like that it will not matter.... ..it will be Sonys demise and they will lose their dominance.

[netcraazzy]

I will leave it at this.... ..I owned my own store for 6 years and have worked in retail for other companies for about 12 years. That is about 18 years of retail sales experience. In my experience there are 3 things that determine you getting a sale on a product.

1. price
2. availability
3. simplicity

MS has not managed to escape any of these in some form with their 2 tier pricing scheme. They have one in the $400 price range, will have a shortage on the other at launch and they have managed to create confusion with the hard drive vs non hard drive versions.


I think that your simplicity argument will only be an issue when you are talking about parents buying for their kids or somebody who has very little previous exposure to console games. Even the parents argument is not always valid because a lot of times the parent is going to buy the one their kid tells them they want.

I'm really more concerned about the non standard harddrive decision blowing it for MS more than anything else. The harddrive was a unique selling point and a competitive advantage, that's not always the case now.

[rein]

I think that your simplicity argument will only be an issue when you are talking about parents buying for their kids or somebody who has very little previous exposure to console games. Even the parents argument is not always valid because a lot of times the parent is going to buy the one their kid tells them they want.

You would think but no, I am talking about previous Xbox owners who are now confused on the need of the hard drive. At least you can try to win them over with the fact that they need the hard drive for backward compatibility.. ...oh wait.. ..not every game is backward compatible. Which ones? Don't know yet. MS hasn't released a list of what ones will be compatible out of the box, down the road, or will not be backward compatible at all.

We are getting mixed messages about the hard drive. We are told that every game will be required to be playable without it.. ..oh wait.. 2 days later we are told that FFXI will require it. Xbox live will be playable without it.. .oh wait some content may require a hard drive. You see where the confusion is coming from?

[Twigz'N'Berries]

You would think but no, I am talking about previous Xbox owners who are now confused on the need of the hard drive. At least you can try to win them over with the fact that they need the hard drive for backward compatibility.. ...oh wait.. ..not every game is backward compatible. Which ones? Don't know yet. MS hasn't released a list of what ones will be compatible out of the box, down the road, or will not be backward compatible at all.

We are getting mixed messages about the hard drive. We are told that every game will be required to be playable without it.. ..oh wait.. 2 days later we are told that FFXI will require it. Xbox live will be playable without it.. .oh wait some content may require a hard drive. You see where the confusion is coming from?

That pretty much sums it up.
So MS hasn't stated whether or not all MMOs will require HDs or not.
Allard said all games will work on all configurations, which does not seem to be the case.
And if the HD is required for all MMOs, then anyone who buys a 'plain' version will have to shell out another $100 later just to be able to play a game which will cost (at least at its launch) $49-59 dollars.
Which brings up another point, how much will the additional MMOs cost or will their be an additional fee from Xbox live that will allow you to play all MMOs?

There are a lot of questions that are still out there. The dual systems add even more to that. Waiting in the wing is the HD-DVD version rumored to come out next year. MS is creating a little anxiety in their loyal fanbase.

I'm still getting one day one (preorder for $400 is now paid up) but I have lost some of the excitement and confidence that I had just a month ago.

[Roc Ingersol]

Yes, other consoles have launched with bundles but they were a different form of a bundle.
No. The NES had the core system, and the 'big box' had a game, and a gun, and a goofy robot.

Not a problem because which ever bundle you purchased you would be guaranteed playability of every other game that came out.
No console has ever launched with a guarantee of playability with every game that comes out. Sometimes you have to buy peripherals to play games. That's the way consoles have been. People get it.

Still, Microsoft is going to seriously downplay any indication you might need that hard drive for any game, even though its the absolute truth.

Nobody knows exactly how important that hard drive will be down the road.
Doesn't matter. You buy it now for $100, or you buy it later for $100.
It'll be useful for storing media and caching content on some games from day 1, and with the exception of massmogs and multiplayer map packs, that's about all it will ever do. It's got a brighter future than Robby did. And people bought that dumb thing up.

They have one in the $400 price range, will have a shortage on the other at launch
Betcha they don't. No more so a shortage than the $400 bundle. We'll have to come back to this thread in 2 months, but we're both guessing.