Contents Under Pressure Receives more Pressure

[jeffool]

Amid attacks calling for his game to have an AO rating, Marc Ecko is preparing to file lawsuit against New York City for pulling his event permit for this planned block party and art exhibit to promote his upcoming game, Marc Ecko's Getting Up: Content Under Pressure. I happened across this first at Next Generation (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=804&Itemid=2), and found more info at Game Politics (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gamepolitics/70854.html).

And better yet, you can read Marc Ecko's open letter to the city of New York at his blog. A sample for you,I am well aware that drawing graffiti in public places is a crime, and I do not condone or encourage it. At the same time, however, graffiti is a legitimate and historical part of the great art history of our city. The visual dialect is alive and well, and contrary to the opinion of certain elected officials, just because you draw on paper that way doesn't mean that you are writing on walls.
...
In the meantime, I will continue to focus on what promises to be an enjoyable day of free art and music for the city that is home to my operations and that so generously embraced our "Save the Rhinos" benefit concert in Central Park less than two months ago.Of course, if you want my opinion (http://jeffool.blogspot.com/2005/08/what-does-rockstar-looks-like.html)...

[BigJonno]

Graffiti as art has always had a special meaning to me. It was one of the first times in my teenage years that I realised "hey, responsible adult authority figures can be clueless idiots too!"

My art teacher was showing us loads of beautiful graffiti photos and asked us "art or vandalism?" My response was "both." Just because the placement makes it a criminal act, doesn't mean that it isn't art. The teacher just wouldn't accept that and we then spent most of the lesson arguing about it. That guy was an arse.

[president_fred]

It was one of the first times in my teenage years that I realised "hey, responsible adult authority figures can be clueless idiots too!"
I realised this when at the tender and impressionable age of about seven I asked for a confectionary delight of some sort, the precise details are hazy at this point, and was told "no". From that day forward I have never trusted the judgement of people older than me. I mean what fucking harm could that treat have done? Would it have turned me into a psychotic killer? Would it be the final drop of rain, which bursts the damn tumbling me into a life fraught with obesity and thus the ridicule of my peers? The answer to all those questions is no. It was on that fateful day so many years ago that I began to plot my nefarious revenge on all things "grown up" and hence my lasting videogame fascination.

[Tricky Thumb]

I really do hope the game is good, because it's such a fresh concept... and really, after all this crap it would be great ammo to say "-and the game is incredibly worth of being called high art!".

We'll see in about a month.

[Eon]

This here is the price of appeasment.

Kowtow to Hilary Clinton and THIS is what happens. Other slime learn from her example.

[Heretic Machine]

Although both the game and subject matter are STUPID, the goverment should have no say about this.

[Justin_McElroy]

Dearest tricky? Are (jet) you (set) being (radio) sarcastic?

[Shodan2020]

Yeah, cause after I played Jet Grind Radio on my Dreamcast, I bought me some roller blades and spray paint and totally defaced city hall.

Graffiti Soul!

Beware the Golden Rhino!

[EGO]

I don't remember seeing any rollerskates the pix.
Am I missing the Jet Grind Radio reference?

There's graffiti in other games and they don't call it JGR.

And yeah the American politicians seem to be on one nowadays. Are they all just getting in early or is it time for elections again?

[critch]

I'm not sure what the politicians are up to. Seems like pissing off an entire generation of voters is not what you'd want to do.

Case in point, there's no way in hell I'd vote for Hillary after this whole debacle. I'd vote for Bush again before I voted for her.

[Deadend]

Whats funny, the game is about fighting against censorship and overbearing govenment.

Politicians are teh stupid.

[Kefkataran]

I'm with Jeffool on this one: god I hope the game turns out good.

[JazGalaxy]

I don't get why pro videogame people always try to discount the idea that that people are mindless emulative twits, in conversations such as these. Did you play JSR and put on skates and go rollerblading... possibly not. Did a whole generation of teeny boppers raid their fathers closet for neckties after they saw the video for "sk8er boi"? yes. Did skating become such a ridiculously massive fad after Tony Hawks Pro SKater that my city started opening up skate parks every other block that now sit abandoned"? yes. Did I see lines of cars getting speeding tickets after peeling out of the parking lot having just seen "the fast and the furious"? yes. People are mindless and boring, and if you take something and make it look cool, they will do it. It's just a fact.

Should this game be released? maybe, maybe not. Are adults stupid for being concerned? Certainly not.

[Achilles]

This here is the price of appeasment.

Kowtow to Hilary Clinton and THIS is what happens. Other slime learn from her example.Yep. The ESRB should have never changed its rating of GTA, gaming is now even more of a political punching bag than it has been in the past.

Are they really asking to give this game an AO for having graffiti in it? So pornographic sex/ extreme violence such as killing children… or painting on walls... walls that you don't own! Villainous.

[Kefkataran]

Should this game be released? maybe, maybe not. Are adults stupid for being concerned? Certainly not.

I'm going to completely ignore the rest of your ridiculous post and focus on just this last paragraph here. I simply want to point out by saying it might be right to stop this game from being released, you're condoning censorship. Did I hate that Avril Lavigne song and Fast and the Furious? Fuck yes. Do I hate all the mindless idiots who buy into these stupid trends? Fuck yes. Do I think censorship is the solution to this or any problem? No.

Censorship. Is. Wrong. Always. Period.

[Heretic Machine]

Ya, I'm gonna agree with Kefka here. Censorship is a slippery slop, if you start down it then soon you won't be able to stop. Welcome to the motherland.

[JazGalaxy]

I'm going to completely ignore the rest of your ridiculous post and focus on just this last paragraph here. I simply want to point out by saying it might be right to stop this game from being released, you're condoning censorship. Did I hate that Avril Lavigne song and Fast and the Furious? Fuck yes. Do I hate all the mindless idiots who buy into these stupid trends? Fuck yes. Do I think censorship is the solution to this or any problem? No.

Censorship. Is. Wrong. Always. Period.


Well then, if you're american, I'd suggest you leave. America is a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the masses by regulating the actions of individuals.

Quite simply, there is no reason for this game to be made. If they wanted to make a Leparkour game, (which frankly I would have loved) they could have just made that. Urban Jungle? Jumping around the city? great. Instead they chose to focus on graffitti, I'm convinced, purely because it's illegal, and games where you get to do illegal things sell. If they accurately presented tagging and it's legal reprecussions it wouldn't be bad, but this ridiculous concept of making your guy into a hero becuase of his illegal activity is just morally ethically and artistically preposterous.

There are people who buy into the ridiculous idea that they, as taggers, are artist and they have the right to deface public property. They REALLY DO think that, much the same way as you can find software pirates on this very board who think that they are "liberating" software and giving free "information" to the masses. Encouraging that by portraying them to be heroes is reinforcing their warped viewpoint.

[Kefkataran]

Well then, if you're american, I'd suggest you leave. America is a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the masses by regulating the actions of individuals.

There's a difference between regulating actions and regulating art. While you would be correct to say America has had censorship in the past (as has any country that has existed for 50-100+ years), you would be hard-pressed to find many cases of flat-out censorship in America today.

Quite simply, there is no reason for this game to be made.

Opinion.

Instead they chose to focus on graffitti, I'm convinced, purely because it's illegal, and games where you get to do illegal things sell.

Opinion.

but this ridiculous concept of making your guy into a hero becuase of his illegal activity is just morally ethically and artistically preposterous.

Opinion. And a misguided one at that, since there are literally thousands of cases where the main focus of an artistic piece (be it painting, film, book, or otherwise) is an anti-hero, a hero who is a rebel and commits acts that might be considered wrong or illegal in the society he is in, but is a hero irregardless.

Now are all your opinions wrong? is it wrong to express opinions? Of course not. Where you're misguided is the belief that you can take your opinions as fact and enforce them on others in order to censor them. That's wrong. If that were the case, I could just say "You're stupid, and as such you shouldn't be allowed to post here" and you'd be banned. That would be silly.

Also: did you get this upset over Jet Set Radio? Because if not, you probably (apparantly) should have.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is the basis for the game's story not simply that the heroes are taggers who are defacing public property, but that they're facing up against a corrupt, totalitarian-esque government? Doesn't that make them heroes more for what they're standing up for?

[JazGalaxy]

Censorship. Is. Wrong. Always. Period.

Opinion. And I'll add "misguided" to that as well.

[EGO]

Mr. Jaz, I think you're quite misguided in your thinking. The whole, "If you don't like America because I have a different opinion than yours or the morale majority, leave" is complete crap. The mere fact that we're having this "discussion" shows the power and value of freedom.

As for the game. Has ANYONE really PLAYED this game!? I keep hearing about how bad it is (not the game, but the content), yet all anyone can say is Jet Set Radio. All of the pictures and videos I've seen don't make it look like JSR AT ALL!

Should Tony Hawk have ever been made? By your assesment, no, because it condones and encourages illegal activity, including graffiti.

It's illegal to kill people in any country, so there's a LONG LIST of games that shouldn't DARE to have been made and are contributing to the fall of society, as a whole; GTA, Quake, Doom, Metal Gear, Simpsons, etc...

Games are escapism, like any form of media. People that take mass media and form their lives around it have their own personal issues and must deal with it, no matter where it comes from.

From what I've read, the focus on graffiti comes from that Echo guy wanting to tell "his story". He was some graffiti artist and wants to tell a story about revolution. If he had been a window washer, then it'd be a game about climbing on buildings to get the cleanest windows. I don't think it's about ruffling feathers to get sales.

It's silly to bash something that you don't understand and it's even more preposterous to say something should not exist, especially when you don't fully understand it.

I for one am now looking forward to this game even more now that ignorant people are weighing in on it. Either way, blame-shifting society needs to get its act together and stop looking for reasons that they have problems and start looking at themselves!

[mister_slim]

Well then, if you're american, I'd suggest you leave. America is a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the masses by regulating the actions of individuals.

Quite simply, there is no reason for this game to be made. If they wanted to make a Leparkour game, (which frankly I would have loved) they could have just made that. Urban Jungle? Jumping around the city? great. Instead they chose to focus on graffitti, I'm convinced, purely because it's illegal, and games where you get to do illegal things sell. If they accurately presented tagging and it's legal reprecussions it wouldn't be bad, but this ridiculous concept of making your guy into a hero becuase of his illegal activity is just morally ethically and artistically preposterous.

There are people who buy into the ridiculous idea that they, as taggers, are artist and they have the right to deface public property. They REALLY DO think that, much the same way as you can find software pirates on this very board who think that they are "liberating" software and giving free "information" to the masses. Encouraging that by portraying them to be heroes is reinforcing their warped viewpoint.
Nice work combining your ignorant preconceptions about graffiti and the game into a demonstration of your fascist tendencies.

Anyway, I quite like Os (http://www.lost.art.br/osgemeos_02.htm) Gemeos (http://www.lost.art.br/osgemeos_03.htm).

[Kefkataran]

Opinion. And I'll add "misguided" to that as well.

Okay. Except when I said your opinion was misguided, I explained why. :)

Nice site find, Mister Slim. Methinks I sense some new backgrounds for my computer soon.

[jeffool]

I don't get why pro videogame people always try to discount the idea that that people are mindless emulative twits, in conversations such as these. Did you play JSR and put on skates and go rollerblading... possibly not. Did a whole generation of teeny boppers raid their fathers closet for neckties after they saw the video for "sk8er boi"? yes. Did skating become such a ridiculously massive fad after Tony Hawks Pro SKater that my city started opening up skate parks every other block that now sit abandoned"? yes. Did I see lines of cars getting speeding tickets after peeling out of the parking lot having just seen "the fast and the furious"? yes. People are mindless and boring, and if you take something and make it look cool, they will do it. It's just a fact.

Should this game be released? maybe, maybe not. Are adults stupid for being concerned? Certainly not.

...

Well then, if you're american, I'd suggest you leave. America is a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the masses by regulating the actions of individuals.Yeah, remember after The Punisher was released? It reminded me of '76 back when Taxi Driver was made. Vigilanteism was a massive problem across America, right? And my God, the movie Hackers? Folks were hacking Gibsons left and right! It was horrible! But seriously, I'm someone who believes that games can have an affect on people. And why shouldn't they? They're art. They're a form of communcation of ideas and ideals.

I do want a government that ensures my liberty by enforcing agreed upon social and fiscal regulations. But I don't want a government that assumes it's citizens are infants and can't take care of themselves. If you want your hand held and what is 'safe for the people' laid out in a neat and tidy list, with no outside influence of articles deemed unfit by your leaders... Well, maybe you should be the one moving. Over to Iran. Though you'd probably just bitch that the government doesn't do enough about student prostests...

[Heretic Machine]

America is a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the masses by regulating the actions of individuals.

No, it wasn't. It was a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the individual against the masses. Just because dumbasses like you came in and ruined the place doesn't mean it was "founded" upon it.

[JazGalaxy]

No, it wasn't. It was a country founded upon insuring the liberty of the individual against the masses. Just because dumbasses like you came in and ruined the place doesn't mean it was "founded" upon it.

Okay, I want you to strip naked and go outside and just sit around for a while. When the cops come to haul your behind to jail, I want you to explain to them how you the country was founded upon insuring your individual right against the masses.

[Kefkataran]

Okay, I want you to strip naked and go outside and just sit around for a while. When the cops come to haul your behind to jail, I want you to explain to them how you the country was founded upon insuring your individual right against the masses.

Again, this is actions v. art. There's a difference. There are arguable and viable reasons why nudity is only permitted in certain places, just like there are viable reasons why rape and murder are not permitted. That doesn't correlate with artistic expression. Nudity is permitted anywhere in a movie, and rape and murder are permitted anywhere in videogames.

[JazGalaxy]

Again, this is actions v. art. There's a difference. There are arguable and viable reasons why nudity is only permitted in certain places, just like there are viable reasons why rape and murder are not permitted. That doesn't correlate with artistic expression. Nudity is permitted anywhere in a movie, and rape and murder are permitted anywhere in videogames.

Nudity isn't permitted anywhere in a movie. Nor is rape and murder permitted anywhere in videogames. Each media is regulated on several different levels. Quite simply, you can't just put whatever you want out into the public. I find it ironic how many people seem to want freedom via lack of censorship, or essentially having everyone be able to do whatever they want whenever they want, yet they don't seem to realize that social freedom, especially in america, comes at cost of doing away with that very idea. Man in his natural state is free. Cavemen were free. Our whole society is built on denying mankind that kind of freedom. That kind of freedom is what oppresses people. If factory owners were free to pay their workers whatever they wanted, and work them at whatever conditions they chose, we would still have american sweatshops. If pedophiles were free to do whatever they wanted, the internet would be even more over run with child exploitation than it already is. If southerners were allowed to do whatever they want, we would still have "seperate but equal" public facilities. If delinquints were allowed to paint on whatever surface they chose, the city would be a giant mess. Etc. etc. etc.

Gamers whine about why games aren't treated as art, and yet they fail to realize that games aren't treated as art because they're, mostly, immature and pornographic. They lack any kind of substance and indulge childish fantasies. This, of course, excludes games like Ico, or Half Life, which really ARE art. I'm a huge comics fan, and I think series like Transmet (noticed your quote by the way) or The Global Frequency very much ARE art. Yet the industry has the same problem as the games industry becuase as much as those books are art, the majority of the big breasted half naked badgirl books simply are not.

Not everything is art. Not even if you want it to be. That's like arguing that everything in the world is food, just because you want it to be. Just because you put something into your mouth does not make it food.

To me, Marc Eco saying that he understand that tagging is illegal, and that his game in no way glorifies or supports the concept, yet the game is about a rogue tagger who becomes a hero by painting all over the city to get back at the "evil government" who's apparent only crime is enforcing the law put in place by the public majority, is just stupid. He's talking out of the side of his mouth. That's like me saying "I understand theft is wrong, and would never steal from you" while simultaneously putting your stapler in my pocket.

[Kefkataran]

Nudity isn't permitted anywhere in a movie. Nor is rape and murder permitted anywhere in videogames. Each media is regulated on several different levels. Quite simply, you can't just put whatever you want out into the public.

Actually, yes, yes you can. It may be REGULATED (as in slapped with a sticker saying "This is not for people under this age" or a rating that does the same), but it's still PERMITTED. You cannot have graphic nudity or violence or rape on cable TV since that is open to anyone in the public, but there still are all of those things and shown in increasingly graphic ways.

lack of censorship, or essentially having everyone be able to do whatever they want whenever they want

NO. For the last fucking time, NO. Censorship does NOT mean controlling actions, it means controlling how something is presented in a form of media. It's, according to dictionary.com, the act of "examining, in order to suppress or delete any contents considered objectionable." This is done to books, movies, games, etc., NOT to real life people or actions. Thus freedom by means of lack of censorship has NOTHING to do with letting people do anything they want, just letting them create whatever they want. There's a huge difference.

If factory owners were free to pay their workers whatever they wanted, and work them at whatever conditions they chose, we would still have american sweatshops. If pedophiles were free to do whatever they wanted, the internet would be even more over run with child exploitation than it already is. If southerners were allowed to do whatever they want, we would still have "seperate but equal" public facilities. If delinquints were allowed to paint on whatever surface they chose, the city would be a giant mess. Etc. etc. etc.

And those are LAWS regulating human action as opposed to human creation. Now obviously human creation is an action, but the idea of having a country built on freedom (which, yes, America is), is almost entirely about having complete creative freedom, as evidenced by our very first damned ammendment being all about our freedom of speech, which equates into all the mediums of media as well.

Gamers whine about why games aren't treated as art, and yet they fail to realize that games aren't treated as art because they're, mostly, immature and pornographic. They lack any kind of substance and indulge childish fantasies. This, of course, excludes games like Ico, or Half Life, which really ARE art. I'm a huge comics fan, and I think series like Transmet (noticed your quote by the way) or The Global Frequency very much ARE art. Yet the industry has the same problem as the games industry becuase as much as those books are art, the majority of the big breasted half naked badgirl books simply are not.

That's true, and all, but the fact remains that it's an artistic medium. Are all games going to be art? Not even close. Are all movies? Hell no. But you still don't see censorship in movies. Are all books? Not even close, but censorship there has died off as well. And even better, both of those art mediums (that is film and the novel) were considered just as lowly as comics and videogames in their early existence. Just because an art form is new and may not have the same volume of great works being released for that medium as other art forms is no excuse to treat it differently. And if we ever want it to grow into something big and impressive, censorship is not going to help, even if it just starts out with us censoring the games that don't seem good.

Not everything is art. Not even if you want it to be. That's like arguing that everything in the world is food, just because you want it to be.

I don't think anyone made that argument. But I would say in return that not everything isn't art just because you feel it isn't. You feel (and I would agree) that big-breasted girls and loads of violence do not make art. Regardless, someone else may feel differently, and their viewpoint can be just as valid. Art is not something stone or immovable or even easily definable. And I would also say that even if it doesn't succeed, which is the case 95% of the time on any medium, any release of a work on any artistic medium is an attempt (unwittingly or not) at artistic expression. It's only because of the assumption that lack of censorship has become so widely accepted for most art mediums.

yet the game is about a rogue tagger who becomes a hero by painting all over the city to get back at the "evil government" who's apparent only crime is enforcing the law put in place by the public majority

Have you played the game? Do you know the story? Because I honestly don't yet, but I'm going to go ahead and figure that the evil government is doing worse than enforcing the law. That said, you may find it stupid, but obviously he doesn't. And I find it telling that once again the example you list equates his having something happen in his game with his actually doing it. HE isn't PERSONALLY actually doing any tagging -- it's just happening in a game he created. So your example about him stealing would be more apt if it was something like Rockstar saying, "We understand that car theft is wrong, and would never glorify it."

Honestly, I seriously hope you were mad about (and wanted censored, I guess) Jet Set Radio. And Grand Theft Auto. And Half-Life, as it were. And any game that has killing, theft, drugs, or anything else illegal.

[JazGalaxy]

Well, first of all, that little sticker you talk about on movies and games is legally enforcable. That is what regulation is. If some company violates the terms of the ESRB they can be fined a conciderable amount of money. It's on the website. Look it up. This vountary regulation is the only thing that sidesteps government regulation. The same as the movie industry.

Secondly, here I thought selling products was an "action".

Third, not any act created in an artistic medium is an attempt at artistic expression. Anything produced for purely monetary gain with little to no regard for it's inherent value is art.

Fourth, I never once said I was for censorship. My point was that adults are not wrong to be concerned that Marc Eco is irresponsibly putting out content that glorifies illegal activity. Whether you decide to call it art or not, that's what he's doing.

Lastly, yeah, I did think Jet Set Radio was stupid. I didn't like the game because I dind't like the gameplay, but it did occur to me while playing that it was silly for DJ Professor K to be encouraging tagging and gang violence as a way to save the city. Now, jet set radio is ridiculously cartoony, and overtly silly which is far less dangerous than the approach Getting Up seems to be taking. Much the same was as The Simpsons Road Rage isn't the same as Grand Theft Auto. As for GTA I loved the game for it's gameplay (for the same reasons I loved Driver or Die Hard Trillogy) but I did think it's content was absurd and uncalled for. In GTA3 specifically I didn't like being forced to commit crimes I didn't want to do (like backstab and murder kenji masaki when I was just fine working for the yakuza).

You can whine about art and about how the only people who re-enact things they see are impressionable idiots, but that doesn't change the fact that they do do it, and they do it with remarkable frequency. Mass media CAN BE dangerous, whether it makes sense for it to be or not. There's a reason MTV voluntarily pulled Jackass off the air. Nobody forced them to. Basically it comes down to the people just couldn't handle it.