Former Turbine Employee Critiques DDO

[bean19]

Jason Booth, a former employee of Turbine, criticized his former employer's decision to lower the scope (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4508) of their upcoming MMORPG, Dungeons and Dragons Online (DDO) (http://www.ddo.com), in a recent blog entry (http://jbooth.blogspot.com/) entitled "Rolling a One".

Turbine recently explained (http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=90) that they were lowering the max level from the traditional 20 levels provided in pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons to only 10 levels so that they have room for adding the missing ten levels in expansions. In order to give players more moments to advance their characters, they are adding on a rank system that grants players action points upon "leveling up" the 4 ranks earned between normal D&D levels. These action points can be used to purchase enhancements that act like mini-feats. For example, an enhancement might grant your avatar bonus hit points, or increase the damage of a rogue's sneak attack. To make DDO characters roughly equivalent to D&D pen and paper characters, only 4 enhancements may be equipped by players of DDO.

While Mr. Booth is very careful not to mention DDO directly, it is fairly clear that he feels that Turbine has made an error in judgement with this design decision.

Now, imagine if we had gone the other direction. Imagine that when [beta testers of Asheron's Call 2] complained [about the low number of skill credits] and we had decided to half the number of skill credits while halving the cost of each skill. The net result would have stayed the same, but it’s quite likely we would have incited riots within the community. Sure, we could have told them things like “Hey, we’re saving those extra skill points for later skill expansion!”, but the reality would have stayed the same, and all we would have done was piss off the community for no net gain to the design.

Now couple this with an expectation built from previous experience with a product. Say you buy a deck of cards, but this deck only has 26 cards instead of 52; but each card can actually be one of four cards depending on how it’s drawn from the deck; thus, you’re really getting two decks for the price of one with twice the chance to win! (or so the marketing pitch says) Which deck of cards will you bring out when your friends come over to play poker?
Interesting read. The industry leader in MMORPGs, World of Warcraft, is successful because it lowers the player's barrier to entry. WoW acheives this accessability by having super fast character advancement, solid gameplay, and a fantastic user-interface. If DDO delivers the accessability that makes WOW industry dominant, will they still get bad reviews for only having ten levels and the rank system? Or, to put it more simply, is this a game-breaking decision?

[Orphiuchus]

This sounds game breaking to me...

[Heretic Machine]

is this a game-breaking decision?

It could be, definetly. I mean, not only because of the possibiility of slow advancment, but lvls 10-15 are some of the funnest in D&D. Now we're missing that. Not to mention that it seems like Epic levels will take two or three expansions to get to now, so that's a whole other mess.

Don't expect to be fighting any dragons, if this game is true to D&D at all anyhow.

[bean19]

Perigon - They've said that there are some Threat level 11 (pretty sure I'm using the wrong D&D terms) dragons. Baby dragons and some of the weaker adult types.

[Murtaug]

I was actually getting a little hyped up about the fact that character creation was going to try and stay true to it's D&D roots and such.. now I am rather annoyed. Not that I was all that thrilled about paying a monthly fee to play essentially the same game me and some friends can play for free. Except, you know.. it's in our minds.

I've turned into a huge D&D geek in the past year, I went from playing every so often to putting together my own scenarios and collecting the old Planescape setting books.. I have a pretty decent library of d20 books now, and really.. I think they offer me more then this game ever could hope to.

[eatme]

Sounds like someone came in and said, "You're shipping by this date, or you're canceled.". Turbine decided to ship by that date.

Should they have stood up for themselves? Would they have really been canceled? Was it something else-- threatening to fire a particular person or particular people? We won't know. However, you KNOW they already had lots of higher level content in the pipeline; now they're stopping dev on it at this point to finish the game in time. They'll finish that content later and ship it as an expansion.

Stopping at 10 is pretty brutal. Allowing up to 14 would've given players some really sweet stuff. :(

[eatme]

One more thing: the letter strongly suggests that levels will be added in free, incrementally added updates. If that's not the case, well, bummer. If they add some levels a few months in, free, friggin' sweet.

[Knite]

I agree with the whole "most interesting stuff is between 10-15". If they capped at 15, leaving 15-20 as the epic levels, I'd think that was a good idea. Most of my favorite playing time growing up was between levels 8-13.

However, there is one thing mentioned and it makes a lot of sense that might hurt.
Everquest, Everquest2, DAoC, WoW... all have levels up to like 50. Even the slower games like the original EQ, you still got something to do every level up or two, which could happen as often in a single sitting. Unless something's changed in D&D since I played (which is entirely possible), the main changes between levels were gathering armor, money, weapons, and stuff like new spells. The actual skill tree itself didn't change until a level change. So you've got all these people who are used to the EQ/WoW style of grind, now looking at a (potentially) much more plodding advancement tree, especially very limited one? The game itself better be damn interesting ;-)

[snubber]

Level 10 cap? Hah! Definitely a game breaker.

[bean19]

Knite - That's pretty much where I'm coming from with the question. . . Let's say they really deliver on the new things that they are offering. Will there lowered level of character progression (which was already low compared to other MMOs and now has been halved), be a gamebreaker?

For those not following the game, DDO is revolutionary in a couple of ways. They are trying to recreate the tabletop experience in many ways, so instead of earning xp by killing mobs over and over, you ONLY get xp by completing quests. Quests are instanced and party sizes can hold up to six players. Each instance is hand-crafted in level design as well as in story and objectives. One quest might be to venture into a dungeon and retreive a lost relic, but players can approach that in different ways. Maybe they sneak past guards to steal the relic (some dungeons are actually built with a subquest where avoiding kills earns the group more xp), or use diplomacy and social skills to convince the guards that your party is there to "deliver" the object for a leader of a group, or take the most direct route. . . direct meaning swords and spells applied liberally to the vital organs of one's oppossition.

Add to this real-time combat with RPG elements. You can roll out of the way of attacks (actual dodge) or have a high armor class that causes the mob to miss (RPG "dodge"). Moving about comes at the price that you must also hit the mobs with your own attacks (as oppossed to switching to the optional "auto-attack" toe-to-toe system they have implemented for those not interested in maximizing encounters through player skill). When you do hit a mob with a weapon, your die roll is still cast and compared to the mob's armor class (once again, they still have the RPG element).

So highly customized instanced dungeons with varying objectives and an interesting combat system.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that they nail this. The game is fun to play. It is has a story-line as immersive as FF XI, and gameplay and ease of use equal to that in World of Warcraft. Does it still lose out on account of such poor character progression?

[Leaving Hope]

Perigon - They've said that there are some Threat level 11 (pretty sure I'm using the wrong D&D terms) dragons. Baby dragons and some of the weaker adult types.

I think you're referring to the challenge rating, or CR.

[Heretic Machine]

I agree about many of your points bean19, I was very excited about this game before the announcment of the lvl 10 cap. I will still probably buy it in all honesty, but I think this was a bad decision.

If they do patch the levels in for free (at least up to 14 or 15) then of course I'll be happy. But I doubt it'll happen.

[Tennistoad]

What is this thing Rpg you speak of?

[Genital Eclipse]

Seeing that I don't wear a cloak and batwings in real life I don't have the slightest idea what the difference is in D&D level capping at 10 or 20. I could care more or less as long as the game is good.

[Vulture]

Maybe it's the high level spells, those effects and special circumstances do make it harder to code for. Timestop anyone?
or Plane shifting? disintergrate for those map mazes?
Miracle?


GIVEN:a 3d environment and flight and invis spells plus a bag of holding . I was hoping to be a mob slayer outdoors.

/Yes I had high hopes for this to be what NWN was not.

[Heretic Machine]

Seeing that I don't wear a cloak and batwings in real life I don't have the slightest idea what the difference is in D&D level capping at 10 or 20. I could care more or less as long as the game is good.

lvl 10 Wizard, "Hi fucker, I can shoot fireballs up your ass!"

lvl 20 Wizard, "Hi fucker, I can blow up your whole god damn city."

[eatme]

Everquest, Everquest2, DAoC, WoW... all have levels up to like 50. Even the slower games like the original EQ, you still got something to do every level up or two, which could happen as often in a single sitting.

In EQ, though, you only got new spells every 4 levels, or even more for some hybrid classes. Many of the levels were just there as stat improvements, which were far less satisfying. "Now that I'm an even con with this guy, my chance to hit goes up by 10%!" Most of those new spells were simply upgrades of past spells: "Even Bigger Nuke costs 2x as much mana as Bigger Nuke for 2x as much damage".

WoW is an improvement: talents mean there's often the potential to get something new at any given level (some talents are new abilities; others are just a 2% or less stat buff). Spells and abilities are every 2 levels, with more unique abilities per class. Many are still upgrades, of course, especially as you get higher in level.

In D&D, every level gives you a new spell if you're a caster-- that's your initial spells, plus 9 levels of new spells. The little "quarter level mini-feat upgrades" they're handing out are the equivalent of a full statbuilding level in EQ or WoW.

Will they have less content than WoW? I'd bet, yes. But 10 levels is still more than it sounds like.

[eatme]

lvl 10 Wizard, "Hi fucker, I can shoot fireballs up your ass!"

lvl 20 Wizard, "Hi fucker, I can blow up your whole god damn city."

lvl 1 Wizard: magic missile! You're not dead? Run away!

[Tricky Thumb]

Simply put: That news gave me no desire to play DDO, which before I did have some desire.

It's okay, I'm sure they'll managae a few servers like The Matrix Online.

[balamoor]

Not to say I told you guys so...but.

[Dirty Harry]

If they make it that it takes actual work to level then i will think this is fine for now.

[Jaded Fool]

I'm not familiar with D+D, would it be stupid to have professions and trade skills like other MMOs? Not sure if that would throw the rules into disarray ...

My logic comes from my recent purchase of World of Warcraft. No matter where I am or what I'm doing I'm always getting further with something: levels, trade skills, money for better equipment. I don't think it matters how many levels you have, as long as there's enough content to keep you occupied.

Then again, knowing the rules allow 20 levels and your only getting 10 could be a bit of a piss off :P

[reimomo]

Not to mention the fact that itemization is going to get all screwed up by trying to condense the game down to this level x rank y BS.

The solution to this whole stupid problem... multiply EVERY stat in the game by 5. D&D purists wont give a shit, because they can divide by 5. And MMO'ers will get the levels 1-50 at release, 1-100+ with expansions/updates they want to see.

But WotC will never go for it, because the books they'll be pimping to the game shops and bookstores would have different mechanics than the online game. Fools.




Not to say I told you guys so...but.

Right, you told us it would be canceled, because Wish pissed in your cherios. Grats, something bad happened.

[Nesta]

Count me out of DDO if this is true. Sad stuff. Why mess with a good thing? Looks as though I'll be looking even more forward to NWN2's multiplayer, which was already looking to be a better way to create the tabletop 'feeling' in an online game. Lord knows NWN1 did a damn good job of it.

[Selar]

If they do patch the levels in for free (at least up to 14 or 15) then of course I'll be happy. But I doubt it'll happen.

If you look at Asheron's Call as an example, Turbine patches in a lot of free content. So it's entirely possible that they'd patch in the other levels for free. AC has been around for 5+ years and has only had 2 paid Xpacs. And only one of those was released during AC's prime years (up to ~2 years ago).

[balamoor]

Right, you told us it would be canceled, because Wish pissed in your cherios. Grats, something bad happened.

Uhhhh wrong, I said I'll bet it will be canceled from what a couple former employees (Turbine has a lot of those lately) told me, and I still stand by that. Further, Wish didn't piss in anyting dumbass :rolleyes: I merely said that DDO is following the same track which is not an exaggeration.

[Kefkataran]

Uhhhh wrong, I said I'll bet it will be canceled from what a couple former employees (Turbine has a lot of those lately) told me, and I still stand by that.

Okay, so why are you saying "I told you so" right now when it hasn't been cancelled? All that has happened is that an employee gave an INTELLIGENT critique of the game, and he certainly didn't even begin to imply that it would be shelved before development was complete.

[vornskr]

I'll be perfectly content with the system they are proposing (10 levels with ranks) as long as the game itself is fun to play.

I could give a shit about the next 10 levels. DDO isn't your favorite tabletop memories. So long as the game is compelling, it will do well. Case closed.

Game breaking, pffft.

[Crabby]

Why should anyone have been holding out for this game in the first place? Any intelligible analyst should see "TURBINE and make the proper judgements. Or perhaps think something along the lines of "Well, that just figures."

They took out "loans" (yes yes, "investments") to escalate development on two games that will release in direct competition of each other. The engines they use for their games need to be scrapped and brought up to date circa four years ago. Should I even have to go into how many fumbles they've produced in game design or business mismanagement?

LOTR Online and DDO are both going to be eaten alive by bigger aquatic life.

And furthermore, no PvP? Not even duels? I think half a dozen games can already offer a player a more rewarding experience in the PvE arena, sans the parlor tricks of instanced (read: scripted) content.

Instanced quests with multiple ways to achieve objectives based on your preference and class capabilities? Does that sound like Mythica to anyone else?

[Montgomery_Python]

I've been a WoW junky sice beta and unless I get my thrills on a regular basis, games are broken for me.

Yeah, it's like dating a girl with all the stuff you want and then being asked to go back to hookers.

[Rangoth]

I want a MMO based on Deadlands damnit!

[Rommel]

My favorite levels in D&D are 7-11, or just before sixth level spells. The game becomes unwieldy after 15. You are either a Demi-God, fit to rule all you survey, or dinner for the first better-built enemy you face. This is what a fight looks like if you win initiative at level 15...

"After flying forward, I turn on my kharma bead, swap out turn attempts into divine metamagic to quicken a seventh level spell while activating divine spell power. With my Ioun Stone that is Caster level 24, Holy Word. Is anything still alive?"

Regardless, restricting the game to literately one-half its normal, nonepic (Epic Wizard: "I summon a beam from the heavens and watch from space as the atmosphere is cooked off the planet") potential is extremely disappointing. Worse, these wacky minifeats belong to a different game. I know I would want my DDO to be the online version of D&D, not an online game with a D&D logo on the box.

[Eric_T_Cheng]

If Guild Wars and NWN (pre-2nd expansion pack) can have twenty levels, why not DDO? Just don't give as much XP for players grinding at random monsters.

[BigJonno]

I read it and thought "OHMIGODNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!" and then I remembered Baldur's Gate.

It's not necessarily a gamebreaker, but it's definitely a major niggle and from my experience MMOGs tend to be brought down by many niggly problems, rather than a single massive issue, 'scuse the pun.


Instanced quests with multiple ways to achieve objectives based on your preference and class capabilities? Does that sound like Mythica to anyone else?

Yeah, but Mythica was a whole different ballpark. The one game that could've got people to actually like instancing.

[balamoor]

Yeah, but Mythica was a whole different ballpark. The one game that could've got people to actually like instancing.


You know the only problem I have with instancing is developers don't use it to make their worlds more dynamic. Let me splain what I'm babbling about here.

Take WoW for example. A Newbie enters Westfall Dose the Old Blanchy quest, and goes about his business, but the world doesn’t move on for him. Those shit kickers are still waiting around for the next noob to feed the damn horse and fetch the watch, its like some fucked up version of Groundhog day. There should be several different versions of each zones that advance a timeline If you have killed Van Cleef then you should enter a Westfall where Van Cleef is dead, and the defias are broken and trying to regroup. I'm not talking about your own personal Westfall..just a Westfall for those who have killed VC.

I can't understand after all the advancements that have been made in MMORPG's we still after all these years have Fippy Dewpaw charging the fucking gate and dieing every ten mins.

[Heretic Machine]

If Guild Wars and NWN (pre-2nd expansion pack) can have twenty levels, why not DDO? Just don't give as much XP for players grinding at random monsters.

...Did you read anything about this game before posting? You get -no- experience from grinding on random monsters, -none-. Reduced enough for you?

[BigJonno]

Balamoor, that's why Mythica was going to kick arse. The devs were actually using instancing to provide gameplay that wouldn't be possible in a persistant world as opposed to basic dungeons that only your group can enter. The best example I've seen is that of a siege where you can fulfil objectives to aid either side. If you just sit there the battle will continue and reach it's conclusion without your interference.

Plus they had a reason for instances to exist (they were challenges set up by the gods who tied knots in the strands of time to create them) as opposed to the "just because" of WoW.

[Rommel]

There should be several different versions of each zones that advance a timeline If you have killed Van Cleef then you should enter a Westfall where Van Cleef is dead, and the defias are broken and trying to regroup.

Problems:
- You would have to go back to loading each zone.
- How would you interact with people who didn't do what you have done? The game is about playing with others, after all.

[balamoor]

Problems:
- You would have to go back to loading each zone.
- How would you interact with people who didn't do what you have done? The game is about playing with others, after all.


Actually you do zone in WoW say you go from Elwyn to Westfall you zone, its just not a visible thing. There are two types of zones in WoW hard zones and soft Zones. Hard Zones are like Doing the tram, soft zones are like from Westfall to Duskwood. So that's not really an issue. It would be just a matter of keeping track of what quest the given player has completed.

As far as interacting goes how often dose anyone really interact with say someone Ten levels below them? But if they do it would only be certain areas that would be set up like this. Major events are happening in Westfall, so that would be a designated area. Not a lot is happening in say Elwynn or Ironforge, so they wouldn't. You would be able to interact with anyone in those areas.

There are no problems Rom only solutions. :cool:

[bean19]

balamoor - they have to make the areas completely separate in Guild Wars when they do this.

This really wouldn't be that difficult to do. . . you'd just separate instances by "Acts" and give people good information on when they are moving on to the next Act. . . but every area would need to be instanced (like Guild Wars).

Neat idea.

Anyway, I really would like more details on STO.

[Kefkataran]

Plus they had a reason for instances to exist (they were challenges set up by the gods who tied knots in the strands of time to create them) as opposed to the "just because" of WoW.

The reason in WoW isn't "just because." It's "Because it makes damned good sense for gameplay." Sure, that's not in "in-game" reason or a storyline reason, but who cares of the storyline reason is going to be as silly and contrived as "The gods tied knots in the strands of time" anyways?

[Malovech]

I liked DDO better when it was called Guild Wars.

[bean19]

I liked DDO better when it was called Guild Wars.

trolling is bad.

[Kefkataran]

I liked DDO better when it was called Guild Wars.

I like your comments better when they involved knowledge and/or intelligence.

[Rangoth]

I like the Pricing Model behind Guild Wars :)

[BigJonno]

The reason in WoW isn't "just because." It's "Because it makes damned good sense for gameplay." Sure, that's not in "in-game" reason or a storyline reason, but who cares of the storyline reason is going to be as silly and contrived as "The gods tied knots in the strands of time" anyways?

Because some of us actually care about the background of our games and appreciate internal consistancy. In the context of Mythica's epic-scale Norse mythology background, they provided a solid reason for instances to exist. In WoW, there is no reason why two people can walk through the same doorway and not be in the same place. Or at least not be in the same same place.

[Rangoth]

BigJonno, I must commend you. One thing that has really pissed me off with many MMO's the lack of attention to the storyline. It turns into just a PvP hackfest. I'm sorry for actually have this retarded concept of storytelling in a ROLEPLAYING GAME.

[Kefkataran]

In WoW, there is no reason why two people can walk through the same doorway and not be in the same place. Or at least not be in the same same place.

So make something up. Again, with the Mythica example, it's contrived at best. It obviously wasn't some really well thought-out genius little bit of story-telling. They probably came up with it over a pizza one night and giggled like nerds for fifteen minutes. And I'm not belittling the devs here, just saying. It's a pretty minor and easy-to-hurdle lack of story that doesn't really affect the gameplay at all. I'd much rather WoW have instances and be unable to explain them story-wise than not have them because they can't explain them story-wise.

I'm sorry for actually have this retarded concept of storytelling in a ROLEPLAYING GAME.

And despite what I said above, I do wish story would start getting more of a focus in MMOs. Guild Wars, for all it's lack of MMO-ness, does start getting this acheived in some respect. I'm hoping City of Villains with its addition of cutscenes will maybe achieve some of that too.

[Crabby]

The reason in WoW isn't "just because." It's "Because it makes damned good sense for gameplay." Sure, that's not in "in-game" reason or a storyline reason, but who cares of the storyline reason is going to be as silly and contrived as "The gods tied knots in the strands of time" anyways?


WoW has instances so everyone has a chance to tie their own shoes.

[Kefkataran]

WoW has instances so everyone has a chance to tie their own shoes.

I, uh... yes.

[Crabby]

Sounds pretty good, I know. Although it still leaves a plothole for the taurens.

[tuesdaynight]

who cares as long as the game is fun.

(i know, some people care... but i don't)