Developers, Media, and Analysts weigh in on 360

[bapenguin]

Next-Gen.biz (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=796&Itemid=2) has a good number of developer, media (OXM, EGM, etc) and analysts feedback on the XBox 360 and it's dual SKUs. I think Mr. Lyle Hall from Heavy Iron Studios nailed it on the head.

"From a developer and publisher perspective, it makes no difference to us today in how we build our games for Xbox360 because Microsoft has instructed us in advance to assume no hard drive from a technical requirements standpoint.

"Longterm, it could limit some of the console's technical potential if you have a fairly fractured audience from launch. However, that is always adjustable by the right absolute must-have game coming out that requires the hard disk. For the retailers, its initial consumer appeal to the casual gaming audience is more limited than last time because the Xbox360 does not offer any new mass market product innovation like the previous console did in supporting DVD movie playback."
Lots of good comments in this article from both sides of the fence. I find Mark Rein's comment very interesting as well.

"Developers already got our big Xbox 360 gift - we got 512MB of RAM. That was a huge win for developers and customers alike and there was no way we were going to get that and a hard drive on every machine. The RAM is more important and will make a bigger difference than the hard drive would have.
As long as the games are good...I'm happy.

[Borys]

Beaten to a punch :(
My choice of quotes was far more attention grabbing, bap :p

[EvilBob46]

How about posting some of the not so rosy comments?

[diggable]

it don't matter, true gamers don't go for a mediocre SKU.

[EGO]

XBOX s0x0r! PS3 p0nwz! :p

Who cares... the price is the same price the machines always come out at.
The Coleco was more powerful than the 2600, the SNES had more colours than the Genesis, the XBox was more powerful than the PS2...

Who cares... it's all about the games, so bring them on!

[bapenguin]

How about posting some of the not so rosy comments?

I posted Mr. Hall's comment because I felt it didn't lean either way. In fact, his take on his was more of an outside the box comment.

I find it ironic that the developer that offered the most harsh criticism was 3d Realms.

[Heretic Machine]

Who cares... the price is the same price the machines always come out at.

If by always, you mean only the Saturn.

Who cares... it's all about the games, so bring them on!

I have plenty of games on my PC, XBOX, PS2, GC, SNES, GBA, DS, Virtual Boy, Genesis, NES, N64, Game Gear... You need more than games to impress me. You need to have a machine that is both affordable and powerful, with a robust amount of features that I can be sure will be put to good use. The 360 pretty much dropped the ball here, since most of it's features either require that you buy the huge bundle, or pay extremly high prices for add-ons.

Games are good, but I can get them on any gaming machine, you need to prove to me that your machine is better than the others, or is offered at a much better price. To me, it seems like the Revolution is the only one that even has a chance of coming out at a good price, and with built in storage.

[Evil Avatar]

Done is done. I'm over it now. Bring on the list of launch titles. :)

[MosBen]

I don't know, from my perspective I knew the machine was going to be more expensive than the last one for a while now. It just seemed the most likely possibility. The inclusion of a lower priced version doesn't really affect which one I want, nor does it seem to have affected the development of any games, since it seems this strategy was shared with developers a long time ago. It's not like most Xbox 1 games used the hard drive anyway, and if the PS3 and Revolution aren't going to ship with hard drives, since most games are designed for multiplatform most next-gen games weren't going to utilize the hard drive anyway. The games most likely to be exclusives are 1st party games, and those are going to be designed to sell systems and will probably support the hard drive.

Edit: Perigon, has Nintendo said the Rev. is coming with a hard drive? I don't remember reading that, but I might have missed something. It doesn't seem likely to me given their focus on cheaper gaming. Also, now that I'm thinking about it, this two tiered pricing will probably allow MS to attack both Nintendon and Sony with their pricing instead of just letting Nintendo take the bottom of the pricing like this generation.

[Phades]

Games are good, but I can get them on any gaming machine, you need to prove to me that your machine is better than the others, or is offered at a much better price.

So apparently the important thing to you is that the machine is better or cheaper, games are less important. Isn't the point of gaming to, well, play games?

On a side note, I noticed that I've been quoting and replying to your posts a lot over the last couple days. Just wanted to let you know that it's nothing against you personally, I guess we've just been disagreeing :)

[Taco]

Not to surprising when 3D Realms is being represented by Scott "The Choad" Miller.

[Evil Avatar]

It's not like most Xbox 1 games used the hard drive anyway, and if the PS3 and Revolution aren't going to ship with hard drives, since most games are designed for multiplatform most next-gen games weren't going to utilize the hard drive anyway.

I think this is the point that is the easiest to notice and the hardest to swallow. You are right - the first Xbox barely used the hard drive. People purchasing the "low end" system are going to be playing the exact same games as the rest of us.

What is more important is the Wireless controllers and the DVD remote... having those included in the "high end" box alone is worth the $99.99. The hard drive is a bonus.

[Evil Avatar]

Not to surprising when 3D Realms is being represented by Scott "The Choad" Miller.

Why would you ask someone from 3D Realms at all? It isn't like they have developed a game since the DOS days.

Think about it... their last game ran on DOS. Talk about being a nobody in the industry.

[Phades]

I think this is the point that is the easiest to notice and the hardest to swallow. You are right - the first Xbox barely used the hard drive. People purchasing the "low end" system are going to be playing the exact same games as the rest of us.

What is more important is the Wireless controllers and the DVD remote... having those included in the "high end" box alone is worth the $99.99. The hard drive is a bonus.

And not to mention the headset and not needing to buy a memory card. Assuming the Xbox 360 never really used the HD to it's potential, that's still a good value.

Realistically, when you look at what you've gotten out of previous generations, the Xbox 360 is coming out at the same price/package $$ point. The only mistake they've really made was in having the HD be standard last generation and then never really using it (waste of $$ for them). Now they're trying to fix that mistake and it's pissing people off.

[sTubbs]

Done is done. I'm over it now. Bring on the list of launch titles. :)

Me too. At first I was freaking out but then I remembered how spoiled we gamers are. I mean what other industry has been completely untouched by inflation? Even at the higher price point we are still looking at less than $100 per year to own a 360 until the next next generation - an excellent deal no matter how you look at it. I will gladly pay less than 10 dollars a month to own the 360 hardware Besides, I just got a new job that will grant me a fifteen to twenty percent discount off the price and also guarantee me a console from whichever shipment I choose. :p

[BabyJesus]

Think about it... their last game ran on DOS. Talk about being a nobody in the industry.


What I want to know is how I can get a job there, its not like they are under any pressure to produce ANYTHING..

[MosBen]

Well, they did make that Duke side scroller a couple years ago, which I heard was kinda fun, but yeah, they're not exactly a big mover and shaker these days...

Also, yeah Evil, the $400 box is going to be worth it to pick up and I think that's what most people will do. Where the lower priced SKU will come in handy is when they can get that sucker down to $150 or $99 and really hit those people that don't care a ton about gaming and *really* don't want to spend much money.

[motor]

Once again, let me just say, the number of $399 to $299 boxes put in the channel is going to be something like 10 to 1. This is all PR for the poster outside gamestop in the mall. Everyone (devs and consumers) should assume that there is going to be a hard-drive on nearly every machine. I would also expect a real anchor game (like halo3 or some massively multiplayer game published by Microsoft) to require a hard-drive.

[Taco]

I don't know about that. Mom goes into Walmart to by it for junior which one do you think she's going with? Are that many people really educated when it comes to this stuff?

[Heretic Machine]

On a side note, I noticed that I've been quoting and replying to your posts a lot over the last couple days. Just wanted to let you know that it's nothing against you personally, I guess we've just been disagreeing

S'ok, EA is all about disagreeing with eachother and arguing for our point of view. As for my comment about games, what I meant is that any gaming machine is going to have good games, but when I'm looking at new hardware I'm actually going to be evaluating the hardware and price before the games. Especially in a launch situation where we don't even know what will be out a year later.

I mean, if you want games, get a PC. Something like 30 years worth games in that library, can't beat it.

I would also expect a real anchor game (like halo3 or some massively multiplayer game published by Microsoft) to require a hard-drive.

You really need to start reading more about this console. It is -REQUIRED- that all games function without a hard-drive. You cannot publish a game on the 360 without meeting this requirment, among others.

[Phades]

You really need to start reading more about this console. It is -REQUIRED- that all games function without a hard-drive. You cannot publish a game on the 360 without meeting this requirment, among others.

If anyone would be allowed to break that rule it'd be Microsoft themselves. I don't think it'll happen, but I don't think you can completely discount that possibility.

[CrysDark]

You really need to start reading more about this console. It is -REQUIRED- that all games function without a hard-drive. You cannot publish a game on the 360 without meeting this requirment, among others.

How in the hell are they going to get FFXI (which with expansion weighs in at about 7 gigs) on a 64MB memory card?

[Borys]

If anyone would be allowed to break that rule it'd be Microsoft themselves. I don't think it'll happen, but I don't think you can completely discount that possibility.

The reason Microsoft didn't release XboxOne (a slimmed model of Xbox)?
Hard Drive.

The reason Microsoft will release XboxThreeSixty (a slimmed model of Xbox 360)?
Lack of Hard-Drive.

You can quote Allard on that.
Later on, when someone buys that slimmed down model they will have the whole Xbox 360 library playable. WHOLE. Not a single game that doesn't work without a HD. Again you can quote Allard on that.

[Heretic Machine]

How in the hell are they going to get FFXI (which with expansion weighs in at about 7 gigs) on a 64MB memory card?

Who knows? w00t w00t!

[fozy]

How in the hell are they going to get FFXI (which with expansion weighs in at about 7 gigs) on a 64MB memory card?

It seems that it might be necessary to have the HDD in order to use live - the headset comes with the highend package. If so, then anyone who wants to play FFXI will already have the HDD.

[Chandler]

"The PC model is the example, giving gamers the experience they are happy to pay for. Xbox 360 actually beats the PC as there's a common high-quality 3D baseline, so you can only go upwards. I hope Microsoft enjoys the experience from this strategy and truly opens up the model for Xbox 720. Meaning if I choose to add extra features or enhance features, I can do that. (Faster hard drives, more texture memory, physics chips etc.) Fingers crossed." - David Perry

David Perry lost some credibility there. More texture memory? wtf?

[fitbabits]

Done is done. I'm over it now. Bring on the list of launch titles. :)

Well said. I'm in a similar frame of mind. I was pissed off yesterday, but now that I've slept on it I feel a lot more calm. The only thing I'm still a little annoyed about is having to drop two of the games that I had pre-ordered/paid for as I assumed the 360 would release at $300 with a HDD. I've already given my hard-earned money to EB Games to secure the 360 'plus pack' (or whetever it's called) on day one.

[Zanzibar]

The guys in the article who are complaining AREN'T THE PROGRAMMERS. They're all marketing and production supervisors. The programming people in the article didn't really care.

I talked with our lead programmer last night about this - he said that it wasn't a big deal. He told me something I didn't know about - that Microsoft already had a technical requirement that the game MUST play when the Xbox 1 hard drive is full. In other words, WITHOUT access to a HDD.

When I told him that people on the message boards were screaming that the developers wouldn't cater to the HDD, he said that the HDD wasn't that big of a deal beyond making savegames. He said that while caching is often useful, there's a number of instances where it's a pain to make sure that the data is all in sync, and also the transfer of data at the beginning of the level onto the HDD took more time than it was worth.

In summary, he said that the argument that 'the X360 is somehow inferior by design than the original Xbox because the HDD isn't standard' is bogus.

[Borys]

"The PC model is the example, giving gamers the experience they are happy to pay for. Xbox 360 actually beats the PC as there's a common high-quality 3D baseline, so you can only go upwards. I hope Microsoft enjoys the experience from this strategy and truly opens up the model for Xbox 720. Meaning if I choose to add extra features or enhance features, I can do that. (Faster hard drives, more texture memory, physics chips etc.) Fingers crossed." - David Perry

David Perry lost some credibility there. More texture memory? wtf?

Yeah there's already a console that meets his reqs.

PC.

[fitbabits]

The guys in the article who are complaining AREN'T THE PROGRAMMERS. They're all marketing and production supervisors. The programming people in the article didn't really care.

I talked with our lead programmer last night about this - he said that it wasn't a big deal. He told me something I didn't know about - that Microsoft already had a technical requirement that the game MUST play when the Xbox 1 hard drive is full. In other words, WITHOUT access to a HDD.

When I told him that people on the message boards were screaming that the developers wouldn't cater to the HDD, he said that the HDD wasn't that big of a deal beyond making savegames. He said that while caching is often useful, there's a number of instances where it's a pain to make sure that the data is all in sync, and also the transfer of data at the beginning of the level onto the HDD took more time than it was worth.

In summary, he said that the argument that 'the X360 is somehow inferior by design than the original Xbox because the HDD isn't standard' is bogus.

Huzzah, some sanity in the mix.

[Heretic Machine]

Yay, the article above this one that showed off all the negative comments disapeared :)

We only talk nice about the 360 here at Evil Avatar!

[DriveALW]

How in the hell are they going to get FFXI (which with expansion weighs in at about 7 gigs) on a 64MB memory card?

Well, the article we just read says MMORPGs are excluded from the "must function without HD" rule, which makes sense. Haven't heard that anywhere else, though, so we'll see if it bears out.

Edit: It was actually the "Oblivion WILL use HD" article. Me tired. Two articles become one article in me head. Time go let nice nurse lady change diapey. Stinky. Yuck.

[Reanimated]

Yay, the article above this one that showed off all the negative comments disapeared :)

We only talk nice about the 360 here at Evil Avatar!




Yeah, I liked the other one better.

[fitbabits]

Yay, the article above this one that showed off all the negative comments disapeared :)

We only talk nice about the 360 here at Evil Avatar!


What article are you referring to? And saying that 'we' only talk nice about the 360 is kinda like saying GW is mentally competent to be the Commander-In-Chief of the US Armes Forces.

[fitbabits]

And BTW, I would just like to say (again) that I'm very happy Next Gen is back!

[Chandler]

The guys in the article who are complaining AREN'T THE PROGRAMMERS. They're all marketing and production supervisors. The programming people in the article didn't really care.

I talked with our lead programmer last night about this - he said that it wasn't a big deal. He told me something I didn't know about - that Microsoft already had a technical requirement that the game MUST play when the Xbox 1 hard drive is full. In other words, WITHOUT access to a HDD.

When I told him that people on the message boards were screaming that the developers wouldn't cater to the HDD, he said that the HDD wasn't that big of a deal beyond making savegames. He said that while caching is often useful, there's a number of instances where it's a pain to make sure that the data is all in sync, and also the transfer of data at the beginning of the level onto the HDD took more time than it was worth.

In summary, he said that the argument that 'the X360 is somehow inferior by design than the original Xbox because the HDD isn't standard' is bogus.

Actually, the Xbox 1 HDD could never get full because there is designated "caching areas". Meaning, there's always 512mb - 1gb available at all times, for your caching pleasure.

What I agree with you though, is that the HDD doesnt really decrease loading times that much. Doom3, Halo2, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory had load times of at the beginning of at least 1-3 minutes on the Xbox, I reckon it couldve been much less, but the catch is increased load times between loading levels. So instead of a 1-3 minute boot up time, maybe just a little bit longer load time between levels instead. Benefits are hard to calculate and it's just so much more overhead to deal with.

[Hellstorm]

Why are you people fighting anway? Everyone knows the PS3 is gonna win in the end.

[Evil Avatar]

Well, they did make that Duke side scroller a couple years ago, which I heard was kinda fun, but yeah, they're not exactly a big mover and shaker these days...

No, that title wasn't by 3D Realms either. It was from a third party company using an old Duke license that was leftover.

3D Realms itself hasn't made a game since Duke Nukem 3D.

[Evil Avatar]

Yay, the article above this one that showed off all the negative comments disapeared :)

We only talk nice about the 360 here at Evil Avatar!

Um... this is the only 360 article we have approved today.

[H.Bogard]

Originally Posted by Mark Rein
"Developers already got our big Xbox 360 gift - we got 512MB of RAM. That was a huge win for developers and customers alike and there was no way we were going to get that and a hard drive on every machine. The RAM is more important and will make a bigger difference than the hard drive would have

Yep and those three CPU cores are penetrating 9 inch deeper than the point you start to scream at

EDIT: I just read this :

The PC model is the example, giving gamers the experience they are happy to pay for. Xbox 360 actually beats the PC as there's a common high-quality 3D baseline, so you can only go upwards. I hope Microsoft enjoys the experience from this strategy and truly opens up the model for Xbox 720. Meaning if I choose to add extra features or enhance features, I can do that. (Faster hard drives, more texture memory, physics chips etc.) Fingers crossed." - David Perry


Isnt this the same guy who said 1500 characters on the ps2 at once? :p
i know i know ive bashed it enough....but please correct me if i am wrong whether or not this is the same guy... :confused:

[MasterEvilAce]

No, that title wasn't by 3D Realms either. It was from a third party company using an old Duke license that was leftover.

3D Realms itself hasn't made a game since Duke Nukem 3D.
Really? Is that so (http://www.3drealms.com/sw/index.html)?
Also, Maybe even.. (http://www.3drealms.com/balls/index.html)? Although I don't know a lot about that one, supposedly it was made entirely by 3DR, but I couldn't find any definite answer on that one.

I respect you, EA.. but I'm getting sick of the 3DR/Duke bashing, especially when it's not always accurate :-/

[Heretic Machine]

What article are you referring to? And saying that 'we' only talk nice about the 360 is kinda like saying GW is mentally competent to be the Commander-In-Chief of the US Armes Forces.


Um... this is the only 360 article we have approved today.

There was one above this one quoting 3D Realms and Bethesda, and they pretty much weren't saying nice things about the 360. Now that thread seems to of disapeared.

[Evil Avatar]

Really? Is that so (http://www.3drealms.com/sw/index.html)?

Yes, that is so. Shadow Warrior was started at another company and then brought in house at 3DR later. Even if you want to give that one to them... the point still stands. Shadow Warrior was another DOS Build engine game.

3D Realms hasn't made a game since the DOS era. Why solicit quotes from developers who haven't made a game in 10+ years? Seems stupid to me.

[zangster]

It seems that it might be necessary to have the HDD in order to use live - the headset comes with the highend package. If so, then anyone who wants to play FFXI will already have the HDD.

I wish I could find the quote, but they have said Xbox Live will be available to people even if they don't use the HD, you just won't be able to download as much content.

[fitbabits]

There was one above this one quoting 3D Realms and Bethesda, and they pretty much weren't saying nice things about the 360. Now that thread seems to of disapeared.

I may be wrong here (and I know someone will tell me if I am), but I think the title of the thread you are referring to was changed. Hence the reason it 'disappeared'!

[Reanimated]

Um... this is the only 360 article we have approved today.



No it's not... there was another one up after this one that had 2 negative comments.

Anyway, I just saw this and thought it was hilarious:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9951/xboxprice5ws.jpg

[bapenguin]

No it's not... there was another one up after this one that had 2 negative comments.

Anyway, I just saw this and thought it was hilarious:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9951/xboxprice5ws.jpg

It was the same article. So I removed it. The link was to this article with 2 different sets of comments. Why would we post a link to the same article twice? And one was a negative spin, one was postive. Do you guys even FOLLOW the links before arguing?

If you aren't happy that we didn't post a negative comment on the front page....tough. The overall feel of the article was it's not that big of a deal everyone is making it out to be. It may come to bite them in the ass, but it's not assured.

[doubtingthomas]

Really? Is that so (http://www.3drealms.com/sw/index.html)?
Also, Maybe even.. (http://www.3drealms.com/balls/index.html)? Although I don't know a lot about that one, supposedly it was made entirely by 3DR, but I couldn't find any definite answer on that one.

I respect you, EA.. but I'm getting sick of the 3DR/Duke bashing, especially when it's not always accurate :-/

3DRealms is relevant because they made Shadow Warrior and some pinball game way back in the day? Wow.

[Evil Avatar]

No it's not... there was another one up after this one that had 2 negative comments.

I think you just answered your own question... as much as possible we don't post duplicate articles. If someone approved a news item linking to the exact same article bapenguin had just posted, we would figure it out and delete the dupe.

S.O.P.

[Tennistoad]

Somebody please explain to me how they are going to patch and upd8 games and micro-transactions on non hdd systems???
Am I going to be playing Halo3 on live with modders that they can't control because they can't patch the systems?? Will I only be able to play against other live members who have a hdd??

Man I really liked the xbox because it wasn't the same as the pscrap. Now I'm praying that 360 sheds this no hdd idea like they threw out those giagantic controllers. And I pray that some really good live games demand a hdd.

[Evil Avatar]

Somebody please explain to me how they are going to patch and upd8 games and micro-transactions on non hdd systems???

I guess it depends on the memory card storage and the size of the patch. The default memory card has 64 MB of space - that is enough for a couple of small patch files and a bunch of saved games.

You are also concerned about something that really shouldn't be a concern with a console system - patch files. They shouldn't have to patch these games at all. The main reason that they had to patch Halo 2 was people with Mod chips hacking their copies of the game and then playing it online. What they should have been doing is a better job of validating that you have an unmodified version of the game before you go to play.

[MasterEvilAce]

3DRealms is relevant because they made Shadow Warrior and some pinball game way back in the day? Wow.
No, I'm just saying his argument wasn't very valid.

I know 3DRealms hasn't developed AND released any games for Windows... It is a shame, but whatever, they can do their own thing. I'm not going to bitch about it.

[Evil Avatar]

No, I'm just saying his argument wasn't very valid.

It isn't valid that I find it foolish that an article about the Xbox 360 included quotes from a company that hasn't made games since the DOS era???

I would say I had a pretty valid observation.

If you are going to contact developers - start with developers who have done extensive work on the Xbox and go up from there.

[RMan]

Once again, let me just say, the number of $399 to $299 boxes put in the channel is going to be something like 10 to 1.
Well, if it's based on demand then this number would be way off, IMO. I'd say through the life of the system there will be far more no hd versions in the marketplace, even at launch with the freako rush I'd say only 80% would be the high end system. The common gamer doesn't care much about the hd, and perhaps not the wireless stuff, and will often care much more about the pricetag. I'd say in the end it'll be closer to 70% low end, 30% high end, but much of this depends on how Microsoft pushes it on people. If they ratio was 10 to 1 though, I don't think they would be bothering with two systems.

[Heretic Machine]

It was the same article. So I removed it. The link was to this article with 2 different sets of comments. Why would we post a link to the same article twice? And one was a negative spin, one was postive. Do you guys even FOLLOW the links before arguing?

If you aren't happy that we didn't post a negative comment on the front page....tough. The overall feel of the article was it's not that big of a deal everyone is making it out to be. It may come to bite them in the ass, but it's not assured.

Bethesda seemed to think it was a pretty big deal.

[Zeal]

Developers being asked to write harddriveless games will impact the system's potential, no doubt. This also rules out the possibility of caching and streaming games, like the Xbox.

[Zanzibar]

Developers being asked to write harddriveless games will impact the system's potential, no doubt. This also rules out the possibility of caching and streaming games, like the Xbox.

Read the article - they've been told this from the very beginning. In fact, about a year ago, I talked with a producer from a different company that said that they were told 'DO NOT assume that the HDD will come standard.'

HDDs are useful, sure, but no developer has been caught unaware by the 2 SKUs.

Again, as I said earlier, the people who are complaining in the article aren't the ones who write the code. The coders have been treating the HDD as a giant memory card, with the POSSIBLE use as a cache to speed certain things up.

[motor]

I don't know about that. Mom goes into Walmart to by it for junior which one do you think she's going with? Are that many people really educated when it comes to this stuff?

She's not going to have a choice, the $299 one will not be there. In fact, shockingly! no one will be able to get their hands on the $299 one, because Microsoft is only going to make one $299 box for every ten $399 boxes it ships to Walmart. It's all about advertising the $299 price.

[Zeal]

I did read the article. I was reaffirming what the developers themselves said. I've known this for months.

The inability to cache and stream data WILL hurt the console, no matter how many people try to talk their way around it. Xbox's games were written from the start to take advantage of the harddrive's caching, and this is what made the original console so great. Oh, and consumers can expect smaller and more mediore downlodable content, because the memory card doesn't come standard, either, and is only 64mb.

Do you think they put in a 12x DVD drive this time for fun? No, it's because the system no longer has caching or streaming abilities.

It's a step back any way you look at it.

[motor]

I would also expect a real anchor game (like halo3 or some massively multiplayer game published by Microsoft) to require a hard-drive.

You really need to start reading more about this console. It is -REQUIRED- that all games function without a hard-drive. You cannot publish a game on the 360 without meeting this requirment, among others.

You really need to know who you are talking to :) I did misspeak, by required I didn't mean required to actually run the game, I meant that the game will need to have the hard-drive to enable several "core" features. On the other hand, certs are meant to be broken, if you have the right connections (which is why I said a microsoft published game). It will be interesting in light of what the oblivion guys said, how well their game will run on a non-hd box.

[Tennistoad]

http://www.xbox365.com/news.cgi?id=GGurPdLrGr08171253

Take it as a fanboy site but this article does make sense... is states that the sdk tools from *** makes coding for the hdd or memory seamless and easy..etc...so developers will code for the hdd..also says that 85% off all units will be premium"with a hdd"

[motor]

Well, if it's based on demand then this number would be way off, IMO. I'd say through the life of the system there will be far more no hd versions in the marketplace, even at launch with the freako rush I'd say only 80% would be the high end system. The common gamer doesn't care much about the hd, and perhaps not the wireless stuff, and will often care much more about the pricetag. I'd say in the end it'll be closer to 70% low end, 30% high end, but much of this depends on how Microsoft pushes it on people. If they ratio was 10 to 1 though, I don't think they would be bothering with two systems.

Like I said, all of this is so they can put $299 on the poster outside of GameStop in the mall. Microsoft controls the number of each kind of system that will go to the stores, not the retailer, or the market. Once the average consumer has committed to going to the store to buy it, getting that extra $100 for all the extra stuff (that the sales person will tell you you'll end up buying anyway, for more money) won't be a problem.

[Tennistoad]

You are also concerned about something that really shouldn't be a concern with a console system - patch files. They shouldn't have to patch these games at all. The main reason that they had to patch Halo 2 was people with Mod chips hacking their copies of the game and then playing it online. What they should have been doing is a better job of validating that you have an unmodified version of the game before you go to play.

people were hacking halo 2 without mod chips. Also there is no way you can release an online game and have it 100% from the get go. I can't think of any online game that really hasn't been exploited and in need of a patch. and that includes xbox. Once you release an online game you have to be ready for anything.. hell people were standbying certain modems to cheat on xboxlive games and who knows what people will come up with next.. Who knows maybe with xbox360 people will be using mitm tactics and changing certain packets on the fly. who knows? but they better have a way to fix it.. and patching it really is the only way I know of. Or xbox live360 will be useless.

[Heretic Machine]

So, the only thing that people have been able to come up with to defend this move, is that Microsoft are a bunch of asshats who want to trick people, that about right? Good. More reason -not- to buy the damn thing.

[Dracula-X]

The inability to cache and stream data WILL hurt the console, no matter how many people try to talk their way around it.
Inability? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that developers can't write games to cache/stream to/from HDD when it is available, and straight loads from DVD when it is not. There is nothing complicated about this and in the worst case a minor annoyance for the extra paths a coder would need to write. This is a non-issue, the games will work properly both with and without.

What is particularly concerning is the availability of the 2 SKU's, some people are assuming the higher end package will be out in higher quantities, I'm highly skeptical about it. Casual gamers outnumber hardcore gamers by a ridiculous margin, and your average gamer will likely opt for the cheaper of the two. Someone cited an example of 'mom' going for the cheaper unit but not find it at a particular chain. If 'mom' is aware of two pricepoints she will likely shop elsewhere if not available at the store after inquiring for the cheaper one. This spills over to retail buyers who will bug *** for $299 lots for their chains because customers are going elsewhere. There is no way *** could get away with keeping $299 packages 'scarce', despite what some are implying.

[Zeal]

Inability? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that developers can't write games to cache/stream to/from HDD when it is available.

You're just restating what I've already posted. When a HD isn't present, the game cannot cache and stream. When a HD is present, if the game is coded to, it will. This doesn't refute the fact that games are being written to work WITHOUT the HD first and with it second. The harddrive went from being an essential part of game development to being an add-on.

As for the two unit launch strategy, it's just terrible. You're dividing the user base from the very beginning and there WILL be shortages of the premium packages. You're gonna see a bunch of confused and angry children when they find out their HDless 360 can't play Halo 2.

I don't see why people keep trying to defend this. It is a POOR move.

[RMan]

Like I said, all of this is so they can put $299 on the poster outside of GameStop in the mall. Microsoft controls the number of each kind of system that will go to the stores, not the retailer, or the market. Once the average consumer has committed to going to the store to buy it, getting that extra $100 for all the extra stuff (that the sales person will tell you you'll end up buying anyway, for more money) won't be a problem.
Although clearly MS controls what goes into the marketplace, they've already done the damage by splitting the userbase and requiring developers (most anyway) to assume no hd. Since they're likely looking at the same profit/loss on either system, more damage would likely be done by employing the bait and switch tactic you describe than simply giving the customer what he wants even if there's a few games in the future he won't be able to get. They're primary goal right now should (and likely is) to wrestle as many consumers from Sony's grasp as possible, and I think the system distribution will indicate that.

[bapenguin]

Bethesda seemed to think it was a pretty big deal.

Yeah, it was such a big deal to them that they decided to have both options in their games. :rolleyes:

Look, I don't think anybody is defending what Microsoft did. Nobody LIKES it...but it's not as bad as you and a few others are making it out to be. So you aren't going to buy an XBox 360 now...time to move on man and stop trying to convert the rest of the world.

To some people, this move simply doesn't matter.

[Zeal]

I'll be happy as long as I can store, load and play ALL 360 games off the hdd. Nothing is better than traveling around with all of your games on one box.

[Heretic Machine]

Yeah, it was such a big deal to them that they decided to have both options in their games.

...And? What exactly is your point with that statement?

So you aren't going to buy an XBox 360 now...time to move on man and stop trying to convert the rest of the world.

...Umm, alright. Just don't post 360 topics, then I won't add my voice to them. That's pretty simple. But until this stops being a news site where we all chime in with what we think, then I'll continue to post that this was a bad idea, and it has pissed me off to the point of not buying the console.

[Zeal]

Perigon always states valid views, in my opinion. And if you guys aren't happy with others voicing their concern over the lack of a mandatory HD, then don't visit other Xbox related forums.

They're worse than this. People are seriously fuckin' pissed. Worst I've ever seen it.

[bapenguin]

Perigon always states valid views, in my opinion. And if you guys aren't happy with others voicing their concern over the lack of a mandatory HD, then don't visit other Xbox related forums.

They're worse than this. People are seriously fuckin' pissed. Worst I've ever seen it.

It's not that any of us mind people posting their opinions...it's when someone posts over 100 replies in 24 hours to these topics...it's a bit excessive.

[Heretic Machine]

It's not that any of us mind people posting their opinions...it's when someone posts over 100 replies in 24 hours to these topics...it's a bit excessive.


I may be posting a bit too much, true enough... But I don't exactly have a whole lot to do, just waiting for Saturday when I move back into the dorms. Plus I'm quite pissed off by the announcment.

EDIT: Oh, and it's not like I'm only posting to the 360 topics. I'm following about six topics right now...

[doubtingthomas]

Perigon always states valid views, in my opinion. And if you guys aren't happy with others voicing their concern over the lack of a mandatory HD, then don't visit other Xbox related forums.

They're worse than this. People are seriously fuckin' pissed. Worst I've ever seen it.

Anyone who is, is seriously fuckin' retarded. People get seriously fuckin' pissed about religion, politics, health care, free speech, etc. People who find out that a video game console they use to entertain themselves and haven't even purchased yet doesn't have a feature they had hoped for are dissapointed. Also, yeah, how many times can Perigon post that he is unhappy, and the XBOX360 is shit? Anybody that has read any of these threads gets it by now.

[rein]

She's not going to have a choice, the $299 one will not be there. In fact, shockingly! no one will be able to get their hands on the $299 one, because Microsoft is only going to make one $299 box for every ten $399 boxes it ships to Walmart. It's all about advertising the $299 price.


Prove it? I keep seeing this but what proof do you have? Link?

If Microsofts plan is to eventually do away with the hard drive (think PS2 slim) then why the hell would they keep pushing for more and more hard drive users. I see it as going in a different direction... ..more and more people seeing that they do not need to have the hard drive and therefore opting out of it.

[Rakael]

Keep on truckin' Perigon. We disagree a lot, but I always enjoy your posts.

BTW, with both Sony and MS pulling boneheaded moves, if Nintendo (who are WAY too quiet lately) pulls some nice things out of their ass with the Rev, they will once again rule the market. Well, lets just say they have the best chance they have had in years.

[jadkins555]

I find it ironic that the developer that offered the most harsh criticism was 3d Realms.

Does anyone take that dolt seriously anymore?

I would also expect a real anchor game (like halo3 or some massively multiplayer game published by Microsoft) to require a hard-drive.

All games are required to run without the HDD (MMOs are the exception).

There was one above this one quoting 3D Realms and Bethesda, and they pretty much weren't saying nice things about the 360. Now that thread seems to of disapeared.

Bethesda didn't comment. It was from a former employee that worked there years ago.

[Okamura_Takashi]

You're just restating what I've already posted. When a HD isn't present, the game cannot cache and stream. When a HD is present, if the game is coded to, it will. This doesn't refute the fact that games are being written to work WITHOUT the HD first and with it second. The harddrive went from being an essential part of game development to being an add-on.

As for the two unit launch strategy, it's just terrible. You're dividing the user base from the very beginning and there WILL be shortages of the premium packages. You're gonna see a bunch of confused and angry children when they find out their HDless 360 can't play Halo 2.


The hard drive is not an essential part of Xbox nor Xbox 360 development and never has been. Every Xbox game has to run without access to the hard drive's caching ability (if there is enough room to hold one save game your Xbox game has to run). Therefore, there will be no angry children because Halo 2 WILL work on the Xbox 360 (sans any possible NVIDIA/ATI graphics problems).

[jadkins555]

The hard drive is not an essential part of Xbox nor Xbox 360 development and never has been. Every Xbox game has to run without access to the hard drive's caching ability (if there is enough room to hold one save game your Xbox game has to run). Therefore, there will be no angry children because Halo 2 WILL work on the Xbox 360 (sans any possible NVIDIA/ATI graphics problems).

Backwards compatibility requires the HDD. Microsoft stated this yesterday.

[motor]

I have a question. Okay, assume that the xbox360 with the harddrive costs $398 to make (just bare with me here), and microsoft was not planning on losing money with this generation. Who here thinks that it would have been better to sell one machine at $399, instead of a $299 and a $399 option. A machine with a hard-drive at $299 is not an option, what would you have done as the head of xbox, suffered the bad pr of a $399 machine or make a $299 and $399 machine?

[Zeal]

The hard drive is not an essential part of Xbox nor Xbox 360 development and never has been. Every Xbox game has to run without access to the hard drive's caching ability (if there is enough room to hold one save game your Xbox game has to run). Therefore, there will be no angry children because Halo 2 WILL work on the Xbox 360 (sans any possible NVIDIA/ATI graphics problems).


I'd comment on how stupid this was, but someone already covered it. This is also how a lot of bad rumors and confusion begins.

[Chandler]

yeah, the x-box HDD is seperated in several areas, theres a designated section for caching.

[Babbster]

I have a question. Okay, assume that the xbox360 with the harddrive costs $398 to make (just bare with me here), and microsoft was not planning on losing money with this generation. Who here thinks that it would have been better to sell one machine at $399, instead of a $299 and a $399 option. A machine with a hard-drive at $299 is not an option, what would you have done as the head of xbox, suffered the bad pr of a $399 machine or make a $299 and $399 machine?

I think that Microsoft probably did market research before coming to this decision. They probably found that a $300 game console would sell better than a $400. They probably also found that people would pay a premium for a better product if the product was indeed significantly better (focus groups in which I've been involved always stress the importance of having choices). Microsoft is probably going to have to do some marketing work to make people believe the hard drive is something important, but I think folks will appreciate the fact that they've managed to get a console out at the same price point as the Xbox and PS2 had at launch.

Now, as a gamer, would I prefer that they take a bigger loss and make the hard drive absolutely standard? Hell, yes. That, however, doesn't make it the smart business decision. And, considering the flack they were given by the gaming public, the gaming press AND their competitors for taking the big losses on the Xbox, I think they had to do something different this time around. I don't particularly like it, but if the games are good and work well, hard drive or not, it'll probably turn out to be the right decision.

[Phades]

I think that Microsoft probably did market research before coming to this decision. They probably found that a $300 game console would sell better than a $400. They probably also found that people would pay a premium for a better product if the product was indeed significantly better (focus groups in which I've been involved always stress the importance of having choices). Microsoft is probably going to have to do some marketing work to make people believe the hard drive is something important, but I think folks will appreciate the fact that they've managed to get a console out at the same price point as the Xbox and PS2 had at launch.

Now, as a gamer, would I prefer that they take a bigger loss and make the hard drive absolutely standard? Hell, yes. That, however, doesn't make it the smart business decision. And, considering the flack they were given by the gaming public, the gaming press AND their competitors for taking the big losses on the Xbox, I think they had to do something different this time around. I don't particularly like it, but if the games are good and work well, hard drive or not, it'll probably turn out to be the right decision.


Yes, they did do market research. I remember when I went and did a playtest on Forza some time ago that they gave us little questionarres and one of the lines of questioning was "what's important to you on a next-gen console." They then had a list of items for you to rate in order of importance. I'm sure the answers to those questions were involved in their decision.

On another note, take a step back and think about what you're really bitching about. The majority of naysayers complain that now the Xbox won't be able to cache data to the hard drive to reduce load times. REDUCE LOAD TIMES. Sure, it's nice to have to wait 3 seconds instead of 5, but is that really a deal breaker?? Load times on the PS2 were annoying at times, but did you hate the console because of it? There's really only a handful of games on the PS2 where I really thought the load times were annoyingly long.

[Chandler]

people are more mad because MS promised and said a few things at E3 which are now false.

Microsoft said the following things (for which I won't bother getting URLs for but..ah well please take my word for it)

- Hard drive standard
- Wireless controller pack-in
- One Xbox360 console choice at Xmas 05
- price in neighbourhood of $299

What really makes me mad is the $100 wifi adaptor, I think I'll have to get one of those ethernet-wifi bridges for $50 instead,

[Zeal]

You're right. I remember all of these promises, especially the price range.

[Babbster]

What really makes me mad is the $100 wifi adaptor, I think I'll have to get one of those ethernet-wifi bridges for $50 instead,

That is indeed a shocking price, especially for an item that, in a USB configuration, can be had for $20 or less. I've really got to wonder if somebody mixed up some prices on that one. Fortunately, I've already got my wiring in place so whenever I finally decide to pick up a 360 I'll be good to go.

As for everything else, it's pretty clear that the $400 version of the console is priced to move. Compared to buying the $300 version and then picking up the "extras" individually, the high-end version is a bloody steal.

[Phades]

people are more mad because MS promised and said a few things at E3 which are now false.

Microsoft said the following things (for which I won't bother getting URLs for but..ah well please take my word for it)

- Hard drive standard
- Wireless controller pack-in
- One Xbox360 console choice at Xmas 05
- price in neighbourhood of $299

What really makes me mad is the $100 wifi adaptor, I think I'll have to get one of those ethernet-wifi bridges for $50 instead,

Yes they were morons to say those things, except the last. The $299 Xbox is the standard system. It's the least common denominator that developers are required to make games work on. The $399 is just an "official accessories bundle pack." It's by far the better deal, but bundle packs are supposed to be a better deal than buying the items seperately, that's the whole point of them (required pre-order launch bundles not included since they're just a ploy to take advantage of early adopters.) Microsoft isn't the first to do it either. Nintendo did it with the NES, and Sony did it with the PSP (in Japan anyway), the PSP being the much more apples to apples example. (Since all the extras were accessories.)

It's just clever marketting. Bundles are designed to get you to spend more money at once by giving you a discount on things you may or may not buy. I probably wouldn't buy the headset or the remote seperately. But, throw the hard drive in there and now they become extras that I pay attention to. "If I spend the money now, for the price of the optional hard drive I also get a wireless controller, a headset, and a remote!!" Suddenly, the tricky bastards have parted me with more of my $$.

$100 is too much for the wi-fi adapter. I already have a bridge though I'm using for my Xbox so I don't need that.

[Ninja 20XX]

The price of a console is rarely the sticker price that's on the box. We've never gotten anything but standard composite AV cables in the box, and for the last decade or so, Xbox excluded, we were also expected to purchase a memory unit seperately.

What next? Maybe those of us who paid for a Live subscription should start bitching because everyone gets a free Silver membership that allows them to play online via Live on the weekends? Hey, if free Halo 3 multiplayer gets the 'weekend warriors' to pony up for a Gold membership and expands the Live user base, more power to 'em. And if free access to the Marketplace means publishers will take downloadable content more seriously and release more of it, also a good deal.

The second Core System SKU really has nothing to do with the launch. Other than befuddled parents buying Christmas presents, no one's going to pick up the Core (and you can be sure retail clerks will be suggestive selling the more expensive model, anyway).

I'm sure there will be big posters with 'Xbox 360 - $299' hanging later this year, but the idea of the Core System, without a hard drive, is for two or three years from now, when they want to drop the price to the magic $199 - $149 and not take a huge beating on cost. That SKU is for the people who don't play games online and aren't going to pay more than $200 for hardware.

Which includes a lot of PS2 owners who waited until long after launch, that's the audience MS wants.

If a developer comes up with a really compelling 360 game that requires the hard drive, they'll get their game certified from MS - because eventually a HDD will also be an option for the PS3, and if the two options are being Certification Nazis and sticking firmly to the rulebook, or letting a game slip away to become a PS3 exclusive . . . you'll see how fast they whip up a 'Hard Drive Required' icon to put on the box art.

Yeah, $400 does suck, and it does suck being one of the Xbox core demographics - Live users - and paying more because of it, but if the end result is that a HDD-less system brings in more users because of more competitive pricing, and that makes the 360 a more attractive platform for publishers (which benefits me in the long run), then whatever.

Bottom line is that a memory card is $40, and that's the one must-have accessory everyone has to have, so it's $60 more for the HD, and it's pretty likely that's the only time I'll have to spend money on data storage for the console, works for me. I was expecting to pay around $30 or so for component AV cables, anyway, so that's even more of an incentive. I've put far more than $100 into memory cards for other consoles and that's all I got, was memory cards.

[RMan]

A machine with a hard-drive at $299 is not an option, what would you have done as the head of xbox, suffered the bad pr of a $399 machine or make a $299 and $399 machine?
Assuming they're doing much more with the HD than current Xbox (downloadable games, for example), then I'd do precisely what they're doing. If it’s going to do no more than currently, then I’d dump the HD altogether and just have the one system for $299.

[Babbster]

If a developer comes up with a really compelling 360 game that requires the hard drive, they'll get their game certified from MS - because eventually a HDD will also be an option for the PS3, and if the two options are being Certification Nazis and sticking firmly to the rulebook, or letting a game slip away to become a PS3 exclusive . . . you'll see how fast they whip up a 'Hard Drive Required' icon to put on the box art.

Excellent point. Microsoft has already relented on the "at least 720p" requirement for Final Fantasy XI (Square is going with 480p), and it remains to be seen whether Square Enix is optimizing that game for DVD-based play - if not, then it will also likely be the first "HD required" Xbox 360 game.

This is going to be a fun holiday season. :D

[motor]

Although I think this thread is getting pretty stale, I would love to hear from people who read this site who work at GameStop, BestBuy, etc... what the ratio of $299 to $399 systems are that they get. My guess (As I've said about 50 times it seem :) ) is that the ratio of $399 to $299 is going to be around 10 to 1.

[kathode]

Every Xbox game has to run without access to the hard drive's caching ability (if there is enough room to hold one save game your Xbox game has to run).Not true if you're talking about original Xbox. Why the hell would they ever say you had to make it run without a harddrive if they shipped a harddrive in every box?

[MasterEvilAce]

Not true if you're talking about original Xbox. Why the hell would they ever say you had to make it run without a harddrive if they shipped a harddrive in every box?
Uh.. if you read all the posts, someone said that. When the Harddrive fills up.. you can't put anymore on it.. Therefore every xbox game has to work w/o a harddrive.

[Ninja 20XX]

Microsoft has already relented on the "at least 720p" requirement for Final Fantasy XI (Square is going with 480p), and it remains to be seen whether Square Enix is optimizing that game for DVD-based play - if not, then it will also likely be the first "HD required" Xbox 360 game.


You'll need a HDD. If they could make the game run off of a DVD, they wouldn't have bothered with a HDD for the PS2. There's a large amount of patches and content updates, which is an ongoing process with any MMO.

You'll probably also need a HDD for Huxley, the Marvel Comics MMORPG, and APB.

FF XI was originally going to be on Xbox, as well, but Square-Enix and MS couldn't come to terms over it. A big issue was probably SE's being so adamant about not allowing voice chat, which they're not doing on the 360, either, which makes a keyboard a necessity.

MS also said absolutely no keyboards for the Xbox, but you could get a USB adapter for Phantasy Star Online. They'll make exceptions when it benefits them. If they didn't specifically say no keyboards, then every FPS developer would've been working mouse / keyboard set-ups into their Xbox games, giving an advantage to the gamers who use that over the standard controllers.


Why the hell would they ever say you had to make it run without a harddrive if they shipped a harddrive in every box?


MS - and Sony - went into this generation with the data that broadband internet was going to increase in accessibility and decrease in cost exponentially, which didn't happen, so that kind of cut off a lot of the momentum for console online. MS also had data that indicated upwards of 50% of potential Xbox owners already had broadband access and would be potential Live subscribers.

None of that happened. They made a very big deal early on about the possibility of downloadable content becoming a standard for Xbox, even for single-player offline games. The numbers never materialized as predicted, there wasn't enough of a push for publishers and developers to create and distribute DC, so the HDD was kind of a waste of money in every single box. 90% of Xbox owners aren't Live subscribers, so for them, it's just a huge memory card for small game save files that MS took a lot of financial kicks to the groin over.

People tend to forget that MS can't keep throwing money into a financial black hole in the hopes that someday they might beat Sony without some sort of justification. I'm sure they knew $399 was going to rankle a lot of feathers, but at the same time, they've also got a responsibility to shareholders not to show them red ink in the books quarter after quarter when it comes to Xbox 360. 10% of the current Xbox audience 'needs' a cost-ineffective HDD, but taking a large additional loss on every 360 console sold based on that is just dumb.

I get a lot of additional mileage out of games on Xbox Live beyond whatever the single-player offers, so the extra money isn't a big deal. Downloadable content keeps my interest up in a game for a longer period, and I'm sure between Perfect Dark Zero, Project Gotham Racing 3, and Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter, there will be plenty of that to justify the extra money put into the HDD.