Peter Moore on 360 price decisions

[Vandenh]

Somebody has some explaining to do! Looks like Peter Moore is the designated target and he explains the idea behind the two different prices on IGN (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/642/642645p1.html).
If there is a lesson I think we have learned in the previous generation is that gamers want choice. Some gamers want simply to play a game and have none of the, in their estimation, some of the frills of the gaming experience, and price becomes paramount for them. At the same time, we believe it's important to offer them the ability to set up and upgrade. But if price becomes the key factor, we wanted to have that as well for as a choice for the consumer. $299 is a spectacular price point. And certainly in Europe in particular, I think we learned our lesson, that 479 euros and a March launch was not the optimal mix of what was going on.
Sounds just like Sony with the PS2 HD and the PS2 network adapter.

[Evil Avatar]

Somebody has some explaining to do! Looks like Peter Moore is the designated target and he explains the idea behind the two different prices on IGN (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/642/642645p1.html).

Sounds just like Sony with the PS2 HD and the PS2 network adapter.

Didn't sony drop the PS2 HD and PS2 network adapter as products? Perhaps Microsoft should have been paying attention.

[Commissar Rob]

Bullcrap! If there's some gamer out there who wants "choice" and an ultra-cheap console then he/she would just go grab a bloody PS1!

Nothing like not learning from history. Sheesh.

[Franjo]

I honestly don't care. Just makes more sense to buy the better package, it's cheaper then buying the addons seperately down the road.

[bapenguin]

As pissed off as I am...I know I'm still getting it at launch. I'm such a eletronics whore. All I know is Sony must be super excited.

[El Gato]

I don't think it's as bad as everyone thinks. How many games actually made use of the HD in the original Xbox (caching aside)?

I'm going to get the full-fat version because I like live.

[fozy]

But the ability to have a hard-drive alone costs $100.

Ah, last time I looked you could get a 100 GB HDD for less than that. Thanks Peter for explaining that so well.

[Deadend]

I smell bullshit.

No way in hell it costs $100 to have hard drives in every console, unless they are SCSI AND micro drives... which, I do not think exsist. That price point is such bullshit.

Now, how will any games use HD for cache? It seems that MS is making a weaker system than they could have.

[bapenguin]

But the ability to have a hard-drive alone costs $100.

Ah, last time I looked you could get a 100 GB HDD for less than that. Thanks Peter for explaining that so well.

while it is overpriced you have to remember it's a notebook sized drive, not the full 3.5 drive. It's $67 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822153009) for the 4200 RPM notebook drive. I'm not sure if they are using a 4200 or 5200 RPM drive in the XBox.

[Morratut]

Dissapointed yes there is 2 packages.

I'm getting the full-fat version too. Also because i like Live.

Nearly everyone will get the full-fat version because of Live.

So i'm not bothered. The games that i will be playing most of will be Live enabled. Because they are live enabled they will need the HD.Because of that nothing really changes for me :)

Everyone on my friends list will get the full fat version because of live. I honestly cannot imagine why people won't get it without the HD.

Games will get updates,levels etc and they will be saved on my 20GB hard disk :)

[thecrazyd]

Games will get updates,levels etc and they will be saved on my 20GB hard disk :)
Except that they won't. By splitting the number of people who will be able to download the stuff, less games will have stuff to download. The HD is gonna be completely unsupported. I can't believe there is not a huge outcry about this. Remember when Sony announced that HD will not be standard and everyone ripped on them?

[Morratut]

I like this bit of peter moore interview in regards to PD0...

'Rare is doing an excellent job with that one. The framerate is solid, and it's good fun. Of course, it's a different experience than Halo or Halo 2 are, but in comparison, you'll be able to do things online with that game, involving many more people, than you could with Halo 2.'

In other words his son is pissed off because he can't jump and he has to walk on slopes to get kill people :rolleyes:

If they don't add a jump i'm going to call it PD DE = Perfect Dark: Dalek Edition :D

[Morratut]

thecrazyd.

If you want to play a 360 game over live i believe you need the hard disk. If thats true then games will get updates because you'll automatically have a hard disk.

[VoodooKarma]

I don't think it's as bad as everyone thinks. How many games actually made use of the HD in the original Xbox (caching aside)?


Exactly what I was thinking. I remember reading that it was rare for games to make use of the HD for anything other than caching for the Xbox. I bet this is why they decided to make the HD optional. While I agree it would have been better for the HD to be standard, I don't think it will end up being as big a deal as people are making it out to be.

[zangster]

Except that they won't. By splitting the number of people who will be able to download the stuff, less games will have stuff to download. The HD is gonna be completely unsupported. I can't believe there is not a huge outcry about this. Remember when Sony announced that HD will not be standard and everyone ripped on them?

I'm willing to bet there's going to be a lot HD support, at least over Live. They really want to push the microtransactions and downloadable content and Xbox Live has done really well for games like Halo 2 and Splinter Cell. I think what'll happen is the first time a person tries to download something they'll get a big flashy advertisment on their screen for a shiny new Xbox 360 HD add-on and they'll go right out and buy one. There's a market for downloadable content and the game companies are going to support it.

[Heretic Machine]

I'm not buying a console for more than $350, and I'm not buying an XBOX without a hard-drive. That means the money I was saving up for the 360 is going to be buying me a new video card.

Oblivion here I come.

[megatron666]

Everyone on my friends list will get the full fat version because of live. I honestly cannot imagine why people won't get it without the HD.


Do you have to have the HD for live? If so, then I wouldn't get the full version for a while. It costs way too much. $400 for the console, $50 for live, $50 for insurance (the original xbox had the cd drive die quick. best to get insurance on the new one), $50 for another wireless controller and then $50 for tax. That's $600 and we haven't even gotten to any games yet.

So why not get the cheaper one at Christmas for much less and wait to upgrade later. Say, when Halo 3 comes out? I think that will be the big pusher for a new xbox and live support.

[Morratut]

Well said Zangster :)

To compare this to the PS2 HD,N64 expansion pack, Mega CD etc is wrong. Those was released well after the console launch.

I believe thats the case Megatron. Not 100% sure though. I personally would prefer it like that because then everyone would get extras like hurricane packs,map packs, updates to cheating etc.

[Norse]

I welcome the opportunity to make a choice. I can get a core system and just get on with the games or I can by a full system which remove the need for a memory card, adds faster loading due to HD caching, backward compatibility, a headset and a remote. If you see no need for those features go by a core system. The price is nice IMHO. It's quite a bit cheaper than both PS2 and Xbox were when launched here in Norway. There's no doubt in my mind that I'll get a X360 this winter. Has Sony released any info that suggests they can compete with the price and features of the full X360? How can you guys keep on saying that MS has handed Sony the victory?

[bapenguin]

It's like I said before...MS has a huge advantage here....basically they can do whatever they want for 6-9 months...charge whatever they want because they know people will pay it. Then...when PS3 time comes...they'll get agressive....THIS is why they wanted to launch first.

[AspectVoid]

Nearly everyone will get the full-fat version because of Live.


Umm...as I recall, Microsoft boasts about something like 2 million Live Subscribers out of something like 30 million Xboxs sold. Given those numbers, I really REALLY think you're wrong about most people getting the full version because of Live.

[Kelegacy]

Spin it Peter, spin it!

[TrackZero]

Except that they won't. By splitting the number of people who will be able to download the stuff, less games will have stuff to download. The HD is gonna be completely unsupported. I can't believe there is not a huge outcry about this. Remember when Sony announced that HD will not be standard and everyone ripped on them?

Ugh, I have to completely agree. MS had this so in the bag, and then they go and fuck it all up just like that. Greed kills. Now I don't even know which console I care about anymore, fuck this, I'm going back to my PC.

[Jacob Singer]

You people are freakin' nuts.

[Commissar Rob]

You people are freakin' nuts.

Well, in general, obviously. But why specifically?

[RandomViolence]

Fuck you Microsoft. Fuck you in the goat ass. This is not cool. You should've just made that shit standard and released it as one package at $349 you stupid fucking dipshits.

[Jacob Singer]

Well, in general, obviously. But why specifically?

For responses like the one above this post.

I haven't seen this many twisted panties since my college days...

[ackbrack]

Umm...as I recall, Microsoft boasts about something like 2 million Live Subscribers out of something like 30 million Xboxs sold. Given those numbers, I really REALLY think you're wrong about most people getting the full version because of Live.

I was just going to ask about this. These numbers seem reasonable to me.

Based on this, I'm going to hazard to guess that Microsoft is hedging their bets on more people buying just the core system. They'd be nuts to expect that ratio of Xbox owners who have Live accounts to drastically increase with the 360. Plus, if you go and look at the pricing list for the 360's accessories you can easily see that if you were to buy everything that comes in the full-fat package separately, which they're selling together for $399, it would run you just short of $540. Maybe they're intentionally overpricing the accessories when you buy them separately, but to take a potential $140 loss each time someone buys the full-fat version, not to mention whatever loss they might be taking on the core console at $299, seems to point to, as I said, Microsoft assuming that most people won't go for the $399 version.

I could be wrong about all of this, though; I'm clearly basing all of this on a lot of assumptions. I think we'll just have to see how they advertise the two systems and which one they put more emphasis on.

[crashedout]

I think there is a general sense of dissapointment. Coming out of E3 lots us were ready to pre-order or at least buy in the initial launch. Now a lot of us are re-thinking those decisions. I know in my circle MS has lost two launch buyers right off the back.

I am pissed at the cheaper version, it divides the installed base and only really serves to screw the uniformed buyer. I was expecting step up from my Xbox, now it really only looks like an Xbox 1.5 and I am not sure if I will be buying during the first gen.

I just have to shake my head at the huge amount of hype that they lost today...this could be the start of a very good case study on how to loose your edge.

[protojack]

I'm most likely stating the obvious, but:

MS is price differenciating to cut the losses all these analysts say they're facing with manufacturing costs. They want to sell all the 360s at $399, but they'll anger EVERYONE in the process, not just the EvilAvatar.com regulars. So they come out with a shitty version at $299 for the parents buying the thing for Christmas, and $399 for the more savvy people, who can see it's a reasonable (if only just) price.

I don't like the price much either, but I don't hate it.

[The Iron Weasel]

yeah as much as an xbox fanboy as i am, this is just a poor decision, and as you know, developers are even more upset then we are, this is probibally the worst decision one could make, hopefully they will rethink this bullshit

[Heretic Machine]

I'm most likely stating the obvious, but:

MS is price differenciating to cut the losses all these analysts say they're facing with manufacturing costs. They want to sell all the 360s at $399, but they'll anger EVERYONE in the process, not just the EvilAvatar.com regulars. So they come out with a shitty version at $299 for the parents buying the thing for Christmas, and $399 for the more savvy people, who can see it's a reasonable (if only just) price.

I don't like the price much either, but I don't hate it.

By creating the low-end 360 they have degraded the quality of the entire platform by splitting the market. Very few developers will do anything with the HD now, it'll be entirely up to Microsoft to provide any content for the HD to justify it's existence. And yes, $400 is too much for a console bundle that will be $300 six months later when they have competition. I can't believe more people aren't offended by the strategy behind this price, they'll have a monopoly on the next generation and they are using it to price-gouge.

[Jacob Singer]

And yes, $400 is too much for a console bundle that will be $300 six months later when they have competition. I can't believe more people aren't offended by the strategy behind this price, they'll have a monopoly on the next generation and they are using it to price-gouge.

I honestly can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread.

Price Gouging? I wasn't aware that a new gaming console was a human necessity. People who charge twenty dollars for a gallon of clean water after a hurricane or natural disaster are price gougers. Microsoft can charge whatever the hell they want for their console, no one is under any obligation to buy it.

Most of you people get hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gaming out of your machines, yet still whine about the cost of your voluntary hobby. No one owes you a cheap console, no one owes you a standard hard drive, no one owes you cheap wireless controllers out of the box.

I need an umbrella to protect me from all the falling sky around here...

[VoodooKarma]

By creating the low-end 360 they have degraded the quality of the entire platform by splitting the market. Very few developers will do anything with the HD now, it'll be entirely up to Microsoft to provide any content for the HD to justify it's existence. And yes, $400 is too much for a console bundle that will be $300 six months later when they have competition. I can't believe more people aren't offended by the strategy behind this price, they'll have a monopoly on the next generation and they are using it to price-gouge.


First off, how is it a price gouge if you have the option of buying a cheaper version? Second, the HD will have plenty of purpose on XBox live where the majority of hard core gamers play. They will have the marketplace system in place and the HD will play a major factor in that along with online play. The $299 system is basically a version for the casual gamer who could care less about online play. I would have preferred a HD in all XBox 360s produced, but I understand why it is not. It amazes me how bad people freak out about the dumbest shit. How much was the HD used in games last generation for the XBox? Practically never except for caching, so how exactly is this HD option a problem again? Breathe deep people and use your brains.

[31 Flavas]

As pissed off as I am...I know I'm still getting it at launch. I'm such a eletronics whore. All I know is Sony must be super excited.Because they can release a $399 PS3?

Nintendo will come in w/ WiFi online and wireless controllers standard at $199 and Dreamcast BOTH of the $399 x360 and PS3. Z0mg11!~`11!!1k

[Heretic Machine]

They will have the marketplace system in place and the HD will play a major factor in that along with online play.

Not if only 10% of the users have a hard-drive.

The $299 system is basically a version for the casual gamer who could care less about online play.

So, instead of moving forward we're just going to remain in a holding pattern then? 90% of the user base will not have a hard-drive, meaning no game will ever be optomized to use it, and XBOX Live will either be even more expensive than it was before (with the added cost of a hard-drive) or won't depend on the hard-drive at all, making this feature even more useless.

I would have preferred a HD in all XBox 360s produced, but I understand why it is not.

$$$

It amazes me how bad people freak out about the dumbest shit.

$100

How much was the HD used in games last generation for the XBox? Practically never except for caching, so how exactly is this HD option a problem again?

$100?

Breathe deep people and use your brains.

I think maybe you've gotten a bit too much oxygen to that brain of yours, you're obviously too light headed to see that this is a bad thing.

First off, how is it a price gouge if you have the option of buying a cheaper version?

Because if the PS3 was launching at the same time the HD-360 would be priced at $300.

[SymetriX]

Everyone seems pretty upset at the split versions, but I know casual game players who would buy the least expensive option.

These types of people might not play online or download content, and probably wouldn't care if the game could be optimized to play faster.

Now, will developers always target this? I wouldn't say so necessarily. I still believe most gamers are not casual but "hard-core", like most of the people who would visit this site, so I think quality game makers will support advanced features possible with a hard drive.

Now, for those $9.99 budget titles, sure, they won't include any adanced hard drive options that would increase load time, or worry about downloadable content, etc.

But, I think all the AAA titles we know and love will support this. And, for massively multiplayer games obviously there would be have to be requirements to have a hard drive installed.

And, for those cases, if you had purchased the lower model you could always upgrade in the future.

[Jacob Singer]

The sense of entitlement on display in this thread is staggering.

[thecrazyd]

This whole optional hard drive thing is bullshit. The whole idea of a console is that it is simple. Supposedly, everyone is playing the exact same hardware. Basically, you are buying a PC with extremely limited functionality that you can't upgrade. Nintendo is the only one that is making a real game console. Well, Nintendo is the only one that is getting my money. I already have a PC.

[bapenguin]

Not if only 10% of the users have a hard-drive.

I think it's going to be the other way around....why?

Availibility. Microsoft is going to force the $399 on users right now. There's a lot of speculation that 90% of the launch systems are going to be the $399 model. Now down the road, when the PS3 launches, there might be a "price cut" to $299 and the only model available is the premium one (without the remote probably). Having the 299 model, all the media outlets (Reuters, CNN, etc) are claiming the launch price of 299. It simply a market appeal...makes them look better.

Lets look down the road now....Microsoft and some 3rd party publisher come up with an agreement for Sequel X. The game happens to REQUIRE the hard drive to get the full use out of it. They tie this in with a marketing campaign for the HD peripheral. Bundle it up for a cheaper price and push it out to more users.

Just because the system isn't going to have a hard drive doesn't mean developers won't program for it...sure there may be cases where they would have considered it....but looking at the last gen of xbox...apparantly most games didn't utilize the hard drive. The Hard Drive was NEVER a requirement to be used....just like the current gen. So are we really losing anything?

I don't know...at first I was really f'n pissed. The more I thought about it....not to much has changed.

[Heretic Machine]

Everyone seems pretty upset at the split versions, but I know casual game players who would buy the least expensive option.

Which is precisely why we are upset, the HD is now useless.

The sense of entitlement on display in this thread is staggering.

Ok Jacob, the next contentless, useless post you make gets you a one way ticket to my ignore list. Either say something worth hearing, or shut the fuck up.

[VoodooKarma]

hahahaha...you crack me up Perigon! First, yeah, I am sure they are just going to scrap the whole marketplace system. And sure the HD is about money, duhhh. Did you forget this is a business? What, did you want the HD fairy to come down and give one to you? You can buy one if you want or not if you don't, options are good. Fact is, if your serious about gaming you will have the hard drive, if your not you won't....simple as that. You weren't planning on buying an Xbox 360 anyway if I remember correctly so why are you so worked up?

[Heretic Machine]

Availibility. Microsoft is going to force the $399 on users right now. There's a lot of speculation that 90% of the launch systems are going to be the $399 model. Now down the road, when the PS3 launches, there might be a "price cut" to $299 and the only model available is the premium one (without the remote probably). Having the 299 model, all the media outlets (Reuters, CNN, etc) are claiming the launch price of 299. It simply a market appeal...makes them look better

Which only means that the $400 price is manditory, and that makes the console overpriced. It's a lose-lose situation here, either the console is too expensive, or it's hard-drive becomes useless.

Lets look down the road now....Microsoft and some 3rd party publisher come up with an agreement for Sequel X. The game happens to REQUIRE the hard drive to get the full use out of it. They tie this in with a marketing campaign for the HD peripheral. Bundle it up for a cheaper price and push it out to more users.


Which leads to the 32X scenario.

Just because the system isn't going to have a hard drive doesn't mean developers won't program for it...

I doubt developers will be making two versions of the game on the same disc, because from what I understand, optimizing a game for use on the HD will pretty much require that you program it specifically for the HD.

[crashedout]

We were, stupidly, thinking that MS would want to push forward the use of the HD. They spent a lot of time and effort selling the HD in the Xbox so logically the one in the 360 could offer a whole lot more. Now this will not happen, why would a developer waste their time on a feature that some, most or even all of their target audience will not notice. If the so called caching is not easy to program, most will probably ignore this feature as well.

[Heretic Machine]

You weren't planning on buying an Xbox 360 anyway if I remember correctly so why are you so worked up?

...Someone want to inform this stupid mother fucker about my console loyalties?

[Zurik]

This whole optional hard drive thing is bullshit. The whole idea of a console is that it is simple. Supposedly, everyone is playing the exact same hardware. Basically, you are buying a PC with extremely limited functionality that you can't upgrade. Nintendo is the only one that is making a real game console. Well, Nintendo is the only one that is getting my money. I already have a PC.

But you're forgetting the one thing the Xbox has over the pc....Halo 2. Seriously though, just about every good xbox game comes out on the pc, the only difference now with the 360 is all the console only developers they have tagged on. It might not collect dust like my current xbox...

[Jacob Singer]

Ok Jacob, the next contentless, useless post you make gets you a one way ticket to my ignore list. Either say something worth hearing, or shut the fuck up.

Jesus Christ, what a douche. Your ignore list? THE HORROR. Did you even bother reading my post on price gouging? I guess not.

You always get this upset and personal about manufacturers' game console prices? You must be a real hoot at parties...

[Heretic Machine]

Jesus Christ, what a douche. Your ignore list? THE HORROR. Did you even bother reading my post on price gouging? I guess not.

You always get this upset and personal about manufacturers' game console prices? You must be a real hoot at parties...

Welcome to the ignore list.

[Jacob Singer]

OH NO!

Does anyone know how old Perigon is? I'm assuming twelve or thirteen at the most...

[Jacob Singer]

...Someone want to inform this stupid mother fucker about my console loyalties?

Seriously, why is this guy allowed to talk to other posters like this?

[VoodooKarma]

hahahahaha....while your at it, add me to that ignore list as well Perigon. You, sir, are hilarious.

[Ajezz]

I don’t think the argument that developers won’t make anything that only 10% of the installed base can use applies in this case. After all only 10% of xbox owners are live subscribers – if that were true the only games supporting it would be first-party titles. I think the comparisons to the 32X etc. are unfounded as that 10% of adopters provide a constant revenue stream (via subscription fees, level purchases etc.)

I’m thinking the bundle (with the hard drive) is specifically aimed at the live subscriber, and anyone who gets the base model can always subscribe later. I imagine a hard drive will be part of a separate live subscription kit (similar to the headset for the current xbox) as virtually all the features of live will require the hard-drive.

I think the freaking out/ Sony has won comments are a little premature

[fitbabits]

OH NO!

Does anyone know how old Perigon is? I'm assuming twelve or thirteen at the most...

Birthday: February 17, 1985
Occupation: College Student: History major, minoring in Japanese.

You'd best be sure and buy a nice present for Perigon.

[Heretic Machine]

hahahahaha....while your at it, add me to that ignore list as well Perigon. You, sir, are hilarious.

Fine with me, it's not like anyone takes the rantings of a grammarless fucktard seriously anyhow.

[Murmillo]

Your all idiots for saying "Just" the harddrive is $100. The harddrive isn't $100. What costing $100 is this: a wireless controller, a 20GB detachable hard drive, a faceplate, headset, component HD audio-visual cables, an Ethernet cable, Xbox Live Silver membership and, for a limited time (most likely only though the end of 2005), an Xbox 360 media remote.

If you want to play the older 'Xbox' games and use 'Live', you will need a harddrive. But if all you want to do is pop in Oblivion and not notice the world for 6 months, you don't need a harddrive.

So pull your collective heads out of your asses and STFU. Its not a serious issue and there is no reason to act all stupid and ape shit.

[bapenguin]

I don’t think the argument that developers won’t make anything that only 10% of the installed base can use applies in this case. After all only 10% of xbox owners are live subscribers – if that were true the only games supporting it would be first-party titles. I think the comparisons to the 32X etc. are unfounded as that 10% of adopters provide a constant revenue stream (via subscription fees, level purchases etc.)

I’m thinking the bundle (with the hard drive) is specifically aimed at the live subscriber, and anyone who gets the base model can always subscribe later. I imagine a hard drive will be part of a separate live subscription kit (similar to the headset for the current xbox) as virtually all the features of live will require the hard-drive.

I think the freaking out/ Sony has won comments are a little premature

Excellent point. Never thought of that.

[Heretic Machine]

So pull your collective heads out of your asses and STFU. Its not a serious issue and there is no reason to act all stupid and ape

No, how about you pull your head out of your ass and read some of our posts? Like the ones that talk about how you won't be able to optomize games for the HD if 90% of the users don't have one. Or about how overpriced all the little extra stuff is just to justify the price of the $400 bundle. Or about how many of the new XBOX Live features (like the market place) won't catch on since most people won't have a HD.

[Jacob Singer]

Fine with me, it's not like anyone takes the rantings of a grammarless fucktard seriously anyhow.

Either say something worth hearing, or shut the fuck up.

...Someone want to inform this stupid mother fucker about my console loyalties?

I'm all for spirited gaming discussion, but, honestly, this guy has issues.

You'd best be sure and buy a nice present for Perigon.

I think a prescription for Valium is in order...

[fitbabits]

Seriously, why is this guy allowed to talk to other posters like this?

Seriously? Because this is a public forum. I suggest you add Perigon to your own ignore list if you find his posts offensive.

[Murmillo]

Where are you pulling 90% from. Thats the failing your whole argument.. Its like you looked into the crystal ball, and your own "judgement" and just pulled random % out of your ass like it was your god given right to make numbers up and pretend that your right.

I'm still waiting to see how much a harddrive will cost AFTER launch, because as far as now we don't have that answer. We know we are adding $100 to the cost of the 360 from a bundle that would cost about $150-$200 non bundled (harddrive included...), so until we know if a harddrive will cost $35 or $75 or even $120, your whole "90% wont have a harddrive" dribble is just worthless crap that your spewing.

[Heretic Machine]

Where are you pulling 90% from.

Well, because the "justification" people are giving for the $300 model is that it's for the casual gamer. Casual gamers make up 90% of the market. There ya go.

[ruceree88]

$399 for the full X360 launch pack which comes with a remote that wont be used by anyone other then people who watch DvD's on their game consoles.
Ethernet cables? like .09 cents a foot...
Faceplates? what is this..a cell phone? talk about a money grab.
The live headset was a pack in with the orginal xbox live pack which dosent make it an extra value wireless or not.

All of this uselessness on top of $60 games....

I challange any of you who will be buying the full pack on lauch day to get it under $580 with a couple games and a extra controller.

[Dariath]

I don’t think the argument that developers won’t make anything that only 10% of the installed base can use applies in this case. After all only 10% of xbox owners are live subscribers – if that were true the only games supporting it would be first-party titles. I think the comparisons to the 32X etc. are unfounded as that 10% of adopters provide a constant revenue stream (via subscription fees, level purchases etc.)

I’m thinking the bundle (with the hard drive) is specifically aimed at the live subscriber, and anyone who gets the base model can always subscribe later. I imagine a hard drive will be part of a separate live subscription kit (similar to the headset for the current xbox) as virtually all the features of live will require the hard-drive.

I think the freaking out/ Sony has won comments are a little premature

Ahhh, but MS pushes their developers to use Live. It's a selling point. They've already said to developers, "Don't count on the HD." Which is just as good as saying, "IF it comes down to supporting the HD and not supporting the HD, don't support the HD." It's a dumb move, and they all flat out lied to everyone.

[Jacob Singer]

Seriously? Because this is a public forum. I suggest you add Perigon to your own ignore list if you find his posts offensive.

Sorry, I didn't realize unwarranted personal attacks were encouraged on EA. My bad.

[farley2k]

Sorry, maybe I am dense but I have a question.

The "core system" is listed as having an Xbox Live Silver subscription with it....so what is all this talk that you will need the $400 version to play Live?

[H.M._Murdock]

Kutaragi sure is sounding pretty reasonable now.

[VoodooKarma]

Fine with me, it's not like anyone takes the rantings of a grammarless fucktard seriously anyhow.

hahahahaha.....very mature! I have been nothing but civil in my posts and you resort to immature, childish name calling from the beginning. And then you say that I am ranting! If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. Your in college now lil guy, spend a little less time posting and more time enjoying college life and co-eds and maybe you won't be so edgy about the price of a videogame system. Just a little friendly advice:)

[Heretic Machine]

Kutaragi sure is sounding pretty reasonable now.

Well... not when you take into consideration the fact that Ken wants you to sell your first born child to afford the PS3.

[fitbabits]

Sorry, I didn't realize unwarranted personal attacks were encouraged on EA. My bad.

Personal attacks are not encouraged and that was not the point I was making (which I suspect you already know). You can always report a bad post to the moderators if you feel you have been personally attacked.

The community on EvAv is made up of all sorts - people you like, people you don't like, and people you are indifferent to. The beauty of this community that EvAv has built up is in the diversity of its members and the interaction between them.

[Ajezz]

farley2k:
My understanding of the silver subscription is that you won't be able to play games online under it, but you'll have access to a friends list, the online store crap (of course), and free downloads like the splinter cell 1 levels that current non-live subscribers could only get off a demo disc, whereas the gold is equivalent to a current live subscription

Dariath:
When did they lie? The fact that HD’s aren’t going to be standard has been known for a while…

It just seems to me MS wised up to the fact that 9 out of 10 xbox hard drives don’t have anything on them that couldn’t fit on a 64 meg memory card (excluding custom soundtracks).

So instead of absorbing the cost of those hard drives, they’re going to sell more memory cards, you will need a hard drive to make use of any of the advnaced features of live “gold”.

This really seems to me to just be a tempest in a teacup – the only potential kick in the pants is for those gamers who are not interested in live, but are interested in backwards compatibility - but maybe the emulation profiles will be downloadable to a memory card even through the silver service…

[TheBrainKills]

Why don't they just put in a shitty 8GB HD in the cheaper version. All problems solved.

[jacktion]

you all gots ta chill.
Is the ignore list like when you say you are off my xmas card list?

And it is bad for *** to fragment their market but that is their decision. They are doing it primarily so CNN will say "Xbox 360 launching at a mere $299."

And developers are not going to support the HD if half the market doesn't have it.
The HD has now been reduced to a place to store your Mp3s.

[snubber]

We better be able to save games over the network, like to our PC. That would be hot. Also, all of you are now on my ignore list.

[Heretic Machine]

(excluding custom soundtracks).

Which is something you're never going to see again thanks to the market split.

[Heretic Machine]

Is the ignore list like when you say you are off my xmas card list?

It's a function that removes the user's posts from my view. I only use it on people who add -nothing- to the discussion/argument.

And it is bad for *** to fragment their market but that is their decision.

And it is my decision to go online and tell people that it's bad for the platform, and bad for the consumer.

[Kelegacy]

The community on EvAv is made up of all sorts - people you like, people you don't like, and people you are indifferent to. The beauty of this community that EvAv has built up is in the diversity of its members and the interaction between them.

You can say that again. That is a spot-on analysis of EvAv.

[Chandler]

You can say that again. That is a spot-on analysis of EvAv.

blah, I think its mostly made up of disgruntled negative gamers :)

[Dariath]

They said it would come with a HD. They said DOWN THE LINE there might not be one. Telling half the truth doesn't mean you get full credit. And exactly, why not put some small HD in the core one? All this backwards compatibility stuff is out the window, unless you buy the Memory card for 40 dollars. At that point, why not just buy a HD? They're thinking with greed, not with the consumer in mind. Granted, it's expected, but it sucks that they spent 30 minutes on a TV special and never once suggested it wouldn't come with a HD. This will split the market, and it's just going to cause developers to not utilize the HD.

As for saying the original Xbox didn't use it much, it's true. Aside from DLable content. But arn't we supposed to move forward? We're expecting better and more from this generation, so is it that bad to expect a HD that may speed up loading? Or be used for MMORPGs. Or for any other amount of reasons a developer finds.

[Mr.Green]

And developers are not going to support the HD if half the market doesn't have it. Like someone said before, only 10% of Xbox owners have Live and plenty of games support it. You're aware that you currently need an optional Xbox Live account to benefit from downloadable content?

Besides, what seems to worry most people with the optinal HD is the lack of caching. First, the DVD drive is about 5x faster than in the current Xbox and second, implementing "conditional caching" is pretty trivial. So simple in fact that it could even be completely transparent to the developers and done in the API.

[Mr.Green]

Which is something you're never going to see again thanks to the market split.
Custom soundtracks are a requirement for all games, just like 16x9, 720p and 5.1 sound.

[farley2k]

farley2k:
My understanding of the silver subscription is that you won't be able to play games online under it, but you'll have access to a friends list, the online store crap (of course), and free downloads like the splinter cell 1 levels that current non-live subscribers could only get off a demo disc, whereas the gold is equivalent to a current live subscription


But the $400 one only comes with the Silver as well - they state that you will have to buy the "Gold" to play on-line.

The Xbox 360 core system -- priced at $299.99 in the United States, ?299.99 in Europe and £209.99 in the U.K. -- will come with the console, a wired controller, faceplate, standard audio-visual cable and an Xbox Live Silver membership. An Xbox Live Silver membership allows you to create a user id, download game content, access the Xbox 360 marketplace and gives Live users the ability to chat with friends. It does not, however, allow users to play games online. To do this, Silver members must upgrade to a Gold membership.

The Xbox 360 fully-loaded system -- priced at $399.99 in the United States, ?399.99 in Europe and £279.99 in the U.K. -- will come complete with the console, a wireless controller, a 20GB detachable hard drive, a faceplate, headset, component HD audio-visual cables, an Ethernet cable, Xbox Live Silver membership and, for a limited time, an Xbox 360 media remote

From http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/642/642656p1.html



So no matter which version you buy you will have to get the Gold subscription to play on-line.


The only Live extras are the headset (which I believe you can use the current ones of), the HD and the wireless lan - but who plays games wirelessly?



Which means that as far as I can tell you can play on Live with the core version. Now as a developer that means to me - I have to program even my Live games to use the lowest common denominator to make the most profit.

[Kelegacy]

blah, I think its mostly made up of disgruntled negative gamers :)

Oh, we're all cynical, diabolical, undersexed (or no-sexed in Kefkataran and fitbabits's case), alcohol-saturated, pessimistic opitimists here. It's like a testosterone Hell, fueled by our insatiable appetite for anguish.

You learn to love it.

[Heretic Machine]

Like someone said before, only 10% of Xbox owners have Live and plenty of games support it.

Uhh... not really. There are way too many games that don't support XBOX Live, even when they should. I mean, it's been catching on a bit more over the past year, but the thing has been out for four years without much support.

You're aware that you currently need an optional Xbox Live account to benefit from downloadable content?

And there really isn't a whole lot of downloadable content either, if you hadn't noticed. There are some exceptional exceptions like the Hurricane Packs, but for the most part games haven't made use of this feature. Why? Because only 10% of the market use XBOX Live.

First, the DVD drive is about 5x faster than in the current Xbox

With games that have much higher res textures, and that also should be getting rid of whatever load times we had before. Can't happen without caching.

implementing "conditional caching" is pretty trivial.

Are you a developer? Because I'm not buying that.

[farley2k]

BTW I would love it if we could lock the other threads about this - or this one whatever so that we only have one thread.

There are lots of good thoughts, and interesting comments and I feel like I am missing a lot of them becuase we have so many threads about the subject.

[Phades]

The whole idea of a console is that it is simple. Supposedly, everyone is playing the exact same hardware. Nintendo is the only one that is making a real game console.

Nintendo always keeps it simple. It never has games on their system that cater to some subset of users who have additional hardware that didn't come with the original console. They didn't have their whole "connectivity" push and there certainly aren't any games released that required it for multiplayer.... By the way, Zelda: Four Swords was awesome :P Crystal Chronicles? Meh.

Except that they won't. By splitting the number of people who will be able to download the stuff, less games will have stuff to download. The HD is gonna be completely unsupported. I can't believe there is not a huge outcry about this. Remember when Sony announced that HD will not be standard and everyone ripped on them?

Xbox live has a pretty small market penetration percentage. Because of that, it's been completely unsupported by anyone except for Microsoft. Now please excuse me while I go play some Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

[Ajezz]

Which is something you're never going to see again thanks to the market split.

If this is the only actual lost feature for MS this generation - I don't think they've lost the war just yet...

However, I'm no programmer but I don't think tossing in the option to use a custom soundtrack if a hard-drive is present is a particularly big deal...

[fitbabits]

Oh, we're all cynical, diabolical, undersexed (or no-sexed in Kefkataran and fitbabits's case), alcohol-saturated, pessimistic opitimists here. It's like a testosterone Hell, fueled by our insatiable appetite for anguish.

You learn to love it.

Wait a minute! Are you saying...? But what about last night? You were panting like a dog in the Sahara. You said I was the best you'd ever had...

[Mr.Green]

Are you a developer? Because I'm not buying that.
Yes, just not in the gaming industry, but I'm positive about this one. Trust me.

[Ajezz]

But the $400 one only comes with the Silver as well - they state that you will have to buy the "Gold" to play on-line.

How is this any different from the current live subscription service?

The idea of the silver package is to allow everyone to get a taste of what paying a monthly fee will get them, not to give live away for free...

[Phades]

Ok Jacob, the next contentless, useless post you make gets you a one way ticket to my ignore list. Either say something worth hearing, or shut the fuck up.

Ah yes, well done. A perfect example of using rule #3.

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2715

[Deadend]

So... there are still going to be memory cards?

Damn, and here I was hoping to have a use for a USB thumbdrive. If I have to choose between Memory Card or HD, I will probably shell out the extra $60 to get the version that does not need a memory card.

Is there even a Live status below Silver, or is Silver just a marketoid term for "You can buy shit online"?

[Heretic Machine]

Ah yes, well done. A perfect example of using rule #3.

He wasn't exactly "dominating me in an argument", considering that his points consisted of, "You guys are teh suck!", "You are all a bunch of whiney babies!", "I had sex with your mother last night!"

I mean c'mon, at least say somthing about the console if you're going to post.

[farley2k]

How is this any different from the current live subscription service?

The idea of the silver package is to allow everyone to get a taste of what paying a monthly fee will get them, not to give live away for free...


It is no different.


But several posts in this thread seemed to indicate that to play on Live people would have to buy the $400 version.

That isn't true. Both versions will allow for Live play with the Gold service.

[Ajezz]

It is no different.

But several posts in this thread seemed to indicate that to play on Live people would have to buy the $400 version.

That isn't true. Both versions will allow for Live play with the Gold service.

That may have been me poorly articulating my thoughts, all I was trying to say is that the 400 bundle seems geared to the current live subscriber - in that downloadable content will need a hard drive

But really I have no idea and I'm definitely not the target audience, I only got an xbox 1 about a month ago and probably won't pick up a 360 until well into it's lifespan :P

The only reason I posted was because all the crying of the 360 is doomed because the HD isn't standard seemed a little ridiculous

[Phades]

He wasn't exactly "dominating me in an argument", considering that his points consisted of, "You guys are teh suck!", "You are all a bunch of whiney babies!", "I had sex with your mother last night!"

I mean c'mon, at least say somthing about the console if you're going to post.

Touchy! I was just messing with you, geez :P

And if you want to be technical, that's actually the kind of content I saw in your posts.

[Heretic Machine]

And if you want to be technical, that's actually the kind of content I saw in your posts.

No, no, no... See, I mix in "You guys are teh suck" with actual discussion about the console.

[Jacob Singer]

He wasn't exactly "dominating me in an argument", considering that his points consisted of, "You guys are teh suck!", "You are all a bunch of whiney babies!", "I had sex with your mother last night!"

I mean c'mon, at least say somthing about the console if you're going to post.

Absolutely NONE of which I said. Perigon completely ignored the post I made showing his rant about "price gouging" to be pure unadulterated hyperbole. Not once did I sink to any thing remotely like he implies here.

That's ok though. Perigon was teenager up until his last birthday. He's got plenty of time to mature into a semblance of a civilized being.

[Zanzibar]

Dissapointed yes there is 2 packages.

I'm getting the full-fat version too. Also because i like Live.

Nearly everyone will get the full-fat version because of Live.

So i'm not bothered. The games that i will be playing most of will be Live enabled. Because they are live enabled they will need the HD.Because of that nothing really changes for me :)

Everyone on my friends list will get the full fat version because of live. I honestly cannot imagine why people won't get it without the HD.

Games will get updates,levels etc and they will be saved on my 20GB hard disk :)

I understand, for you, that this isn't really a bad thing. But I wanted Microsoft to rip Sony's balls off and stuff them down Ken Kutaragi's throat. MS had the perfect opportunity to really fuck over Sony with a $299 price tag, and they blew it. Flat-out, no-bullshit, coughed-up-the-ball-at-the-one-yard-line kind of blew it.

[valkyrie_cs]

Thanks for the hilarious vitriol guys, wonderful fun :)

on topic: The games industry is a pretty static thing strategically speaking: meaning that the same decisions usually lead to similar outcomes. I'm not saying that the playing field never changes (it has: bigger budgets, higher risk and mass market consumers) but generally there seem to be some "historically proven mistakes".

Surely one of these has to be: "Thou shall not fragment the console target market". It's NEVER EVER WORKED, shit it even failed the Amiga... you just don't do it: take a look at the apple ipod: you have a family/range of product that have different "magnitudes" of the SAME functions.

By taking a *function* away you fragment the market. Good luck rewriting the laws of console physics MS ! (seriously)

[Cyrano]

Two things.

I'd be happier about this announcement if I hadn't read or watched any of the earlier pre-release announcements. First, there were rumors that the 360 wouldn't have a hard drive at all and would not be backwards-compatible. I was sad. Then, there was the MTV unveiling where it was announced that the 360 would have a hard drive and be backwards compatible. I was happy. Then, Allard said in an interview that the 360 would be "around $300" and I was happy. Then, in another interview, Allard said that future versions might not have an HD. I was just a little sad. Now, the final announcement, and I don't know what to think. I should have just ignored all the other crap and waited for the final pricing and specs.

Second, the $300 version should come with a big sticker on it that says "Does Not Play Halo 2". Otherwise, Johnny who watched the MTV special will be really unhappy on Christmas morning. Can Microsoft pull some sort of trick and make Halo 2 think the memory card on the 360 is a hard drive? Maybe the version without the 20g hd should be called the Xbox 340.

[51|RandoM]

You guys are forgetting about the new 'security' for peripherals. That is why they prices are ridiculously high for these 'extras', cause nobody else is going to be making them in competition to MS... unless they pay royalties... which will then end up making their stuff just as expensive as microsofts.

MS does this in every market they gain a toehold, I don't know why people are shocked.

Vote with your pocketbook.

Lol, xbox360? xbox399. :-)

[TheBrainKills]

Looking at it , you would have to be an idiot to buy the xbox299. The value added xbox399 is just too much of a value. But at the end of the day, with an extra controller, 2 games, taxes, and the canadian dollar I am looking at about $800 .... ouch.

[Zeal]

Fuck Microsoft. The $400 console is not a big deal to me, but it's just the simple fact that Microsoft has now resorted to fucking the consumer over and covering it up Sony-style.

This is a DEFINITE step back from XBOX's launch. This is a step back in everything.

Peter Moore is a fuckin' car salesman.

[Hellstorm]

Yes, just not in the gaming industry, but I'm positive about this one. Trust me.


According the Xbox360 requirements list it states that custom soundtracks must be supported no matter what, if user has or if the user doesn't have a HD, support must be there should they get on later. But then again in the same document it says to code for the X360 as if there is no hard drive.

All in all, MS is making xbox 360 development to be a pain. Your game fails because it doesn't support 720p. Your game fails for not supporting minimum Live functionality. So basically, one has to do extra work to get their game to pass 360 certification, on features that probably more than half the users don't have or won't have.

See this is why Sony wins. They don't force developers to do anything outside of just making sure your game recovers correctly should you open the cover.

[bapenguin]

See this is why Sony wins. They don't force developers to do anything outside of just making sure your game recovers correctly should you open the cover.

Umm...there's still a Sony quality certification to pass as well. Just like any other console.

[Heretic Machine]

The more I think about it, the more I think I don't need to deal with console gaming. With all of the bullshit that we've gone through during this generation, specifically with ports of games having exclusive content on different consoles, it just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore. Not only are the prices at stupidly high levels ($400 for the real 360, $400 + for PS3), but the competition of the market has bogged down the fun involved with a lot of the games.

"Don't buy GTA: SA for PS2, if you wait a year you can buy it on the XBOX with better graphics!"

"Don't buy the Sonic Mega Collection on the GC, you can buy it on the other two consoles in a few months with extra games!"

"Don't buy RE:4 on the GC, you can buy it on the PS2 a year later with a few new guns!"

Does this annoy anyone else? I mean at least with PC gaming, I usually don't have to worry about some console one-upping my version of the game. More often than not, the PC's version of a game will be superior. Oh, and Peter Moore... I got options, plenty of options.

[Kelegacy]

The more I think about it, the more I think I don't need to deal with console gaming. With all of the bullshit that we've gone through during this generation, specifically with ports of games having exclusive content on different consoles, it just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore. Not only are the prices at stupidly high levels ($400 for the real 360, $400 + for PS3), but the competition of the market has bogged down the fun involved with a lot of the games.

"Don't buy GTA: SA for PS2, if you wait a year you can buy it on the XBOX with better graphics!"

"Don't buy the Sonic Mega Collection on the GC, you can buy it on the other two consoles in a few months with extra games!"

"Don't buy RE:4 on the GC, you can buy it on the PS2 a year later with a few new guns!"

Does this annoy anyone else? I mean at least with PC gaming, I usually don't have to worry about some console one-upping my version of the game. More often than not, the PC's version of a game will be superior. Oh, and Peter Moore... I got options, plenty of options.

You cocksucking PC Elitist BASTARD. You should be hung by your toes and gutted like a rancid fish, letting the rats devour your filthy entrails. ELITIST!!

Or at least that's what I'd say if I was one of those people who are about to attack you for saying PC gaming is "superior". Get ready, here they come. I can smell their wanton anger at your disrespect.

[VsSelf]

Splitting the market is what killed Sega. I still remember their "the Saturn is the Cadillac, the 32X is the Pinto" memos. If the sucess of the PS2 taught the industry anything, though, it's that as long as people know jack-all before a purchase you can still gain market dominance. And sponsoring MTV events didn't help the Dreamcast any...the more I think about it, the more I root for the Revolution. Neither Sony nor Microsoft has shown me any reason to be launch-pumped.

[Tyrant]

No, how about you pull your head out of your ass and read some of our posts? Like the ones that talk about how you won't be able to optomize games for the HD if 90% of the users don't have one. Or about how overpriced all the little extra stuff is just to justify the price of the $400 bundle. Or about how many of the new XBOX Live features (like the market place) won't catch on since most people won't have a HD.

You know what's funny? In Japan, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy X, and various other titles had HDD support in the sense that they used HD caching. Now for whatever reason, they stripped that feature out of the North American versions, but it just goes to show that even though there might be far fewer console owners who have an optional HD addon, doesn't mean that support is out of the question.

I don't think you should underestimate the Average Joe Gamer's intelligence either. Here's a sample scenario:

Alright, so this Xbox 360 will cost me $299...but I want to take advantage of my fancy new HDTV!
*grabs a component or VGA cable*
Oh, and I need something to save my games with. Now this 64mb memory card is cheaper than the hard drive, but the hard drive has tons more storage space...
*grabs an HD*
Hmmm...if this wireless controller is anything like the Wavebird, it should be pretty sweet.
*grabs a wireless controller*
Wait a second, I can just pay $100 more for a bundle with all this shit as opposed to buying them seperately for even more!
*does the logical thing and goes for the bundle*"

[Zeal]

Splitting the market is what killed Sega. I still remember their "the Saturn is the Cadillac, the 32X is the Pinto" memos. If the sucess of the PS2 taught the industry anything, though, it's that as long as people know jack-all before a purchase you can still gain market dominance. And sponsoring MTV events didn't help the Dreamcast any...the more I think about it, the more I root for the Revolution. Neither Sony nor Microsoft has shown me any reason to be launch-pumped.

This is the only guy I've seen making any sense. It's fairly obvious to me at this point that 360 is going to become another Saturn, and with PS3 right around the corner, can you say Dreamcast Part 2?

All games are being developed to function without the harddrive. So what does that mean? No HDD caching or disc streaming. And what will those consumers who buy the harddrive get as an advantage? A bunch of "extra content" garbage that Microsoft will charge additional fees for and potentially buggy emulation of Xbox games.

Wow, Microsoft. Just wow.

[Morratut]

Your right Zanzibar. Because i'm a Xbox Live whore this changes nothing for me. I will play games over Live and they will get updates etc just like the games now.

I am happy to play with only '10%' of the Xbox population. Thats more than enough to have some great matchmade games and make new friends :)

Plus it's only going to cost me £279. Compared to other console releases thats great value. Whoo hoo one happy Xbox gamer.

[Hellstorm]

Umm...there's still a Sony quality certification to pass as well. Just like any other console.


No kidding. They mostly deal with what should happen if the player pulls the controller out during a game or FMV, what message and how to recover from opening the disk cover and the proper flow and recovery if a save game fails or they switch to a different memory card.

No where do they force developers to support any resolution, nor that you have to have custom soundtracks.

Nintendo certification is even more simpler than Sony's.

So in ways, MS makes developing for the 360 more expensive for developers because they have to add all these features that might not be used at all.

Again, the PS3 is going to be the baseline development system for 90% of developers because other then the Cell being a bitch, Sony doesn't force much onto developers and Nintendo even less.

[score]

The more I think about it, the more I think I don't need to deal with console gaming. With all of the bullshit that we've gone through during this generation, specifically with ports of games having exclusive content on different consoles, it just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore. Not only are the prices at stupidly high levels ($400 for the real 360, $400 + for PS3), but the competition of the market has bogged down the fun involved with a lot of the games.

"Don't buy GTA: SA for PS2, if you wait a year you can buy it on the XBOX with better graphics!"

"Don't buy the Sonic Mega Collection on the GC, you can buy it on the other two consoles in a few months with extra games!"

"Don't buy RE:4 on the GC, you can buy it on the PS2 a year later with a few new guns!"

Does this annoy anyone else? I mean at least with PC gaming, I usually don't have to worry about some console one-upping my version of the game. More often than not, the PC's version of a game will be superior. Oh, and Peter Moore... I got options, plenty of options.

Man, I hear you. Its like console games are becoming the next dvd's. It won't be long till we're advising each other not to buy a game on release and to wait an extra 2 months until they release the super duper special extended directors substance cut....

Personally, to me, it feels like Microsoft didn't know whether to include a HD in every 360 or not. Because they were unsure of what Sonys plan was they've said it will be standard (or made it out to be that way). Sony have since announced that they wont be shipping with a HD as standard which has left Microsoft in the position to do the same....