Price of Xbox 360? It depends.

[Evil Avatar]

Microsoft has just unveiled North American and European pricing for Xbox 360 and several peripherals. As rumored, there will be two types of 360s for sale this holiday - one bundled with a hard drive (and other items) for $400 and a stand-alone model (no HD) for $300. Chris Morris's Gamer Over Column (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm) on CNN Money has comments from Microsoft and more details.

The hard drive might seem like an expensive luxury to some shoppers, particularly those buying for someone else this holiday season, but for current Xbox gamers, it's a critical piece of equipment. Without a hard drive, the Xbox 360 will not be able to play any games from the current Xbox, including the phenomenally successful "Halo 2".This has to be the dumbest decision I've ever seen. With a low-end system on the market - developers will always shoot for the lowest common system requirements.

[Taco]

I don't know if they handed over the win, since Sony is taking the same route. But they defintly hacked off a huge edge.

[BabyJesus]

Don't see how this is making a low end system on the market, the only thing missing is the HD and MS has stated many times that game makers should be coding without the HD in mind. I don't see it as being a big deal to develop for both scenarios.

I am a bit disapointed myself though, was hoping MS would be smarter and just bite the bullet.

[holysin]

The lack of a HD on the cheaper version is bad, but it's not the dumbest decision, nor does it mean microsoft handed sony the win.

In fact, with a 299 price they're actually making things harder for sony. They could even try slashing the price to 249 when the ps3 gets released for double that price.

[EGO]

32x
Sega CD
N64's Memory Expansion
Saturn's Memory Expansion
PS2's HDD

Spliting the user base NEVER works. Consumers that buy expansion peripherials are a low number and developers know this, so they don't write games for them (catch 22?).

Microsuck just killed one of the edges they had and made it so no one in their right mind will develop a game that needs a HD.

Basically, they made a $100 XBox-1 emulator, because no ones going to make games for it.

[Scaryboy]

The PS3 is probably going to suffer the same pricing issues though. I doubt that it will be any cheaper, though they'll at least be smart enough not to create a two-tier system right from the get go. I really get the impression that these consoles are coming out waay too soon, I could easily sit on the consoles I have right now for another two or three years without much of a problem.

And also I've suddenly felt flush with the idea that perhaps, just maybe Nintendo aren't as nutzoid crazy as previously assumed. 2-3 times the power of the gamecube for a much cheaper price isn't sounding so bad all of a sudden.

[Cha-Ka]

a $100 gets you a remote control, a headset, and a 20 GB hard drive that game developers have zero incentive to provide content for. That's...indescribably lame.

And pre-loading the HD with adds and major label music is really, really pathetic in my opinion. Why not just emblazon the console with a pepsi logo while you're at it?

[holysin]

32x
Sega CD
N64's Memory Expansion
Saturn's Memory Expansion
PS2's HDD

Spliting the user base NEVER works. Consumers that buy expansion peripherials are a low number and developers know this, so they don't write games for them (catch 22?).

Microsuck just killed one of the edges they had and made it so no one in their right mind will develop a game that needs a HD.

Basically, they made a $100 XBox-1 emulator, because no ones going to make games for it.


it's NOT splitting the user base. The hd would only be useful to store game data (making load time faster) and having almost unlimited save space.
Graphics won't change, gameplay wont change, sound won't change.

It shouldn't be too hard to make a game check for an HD and store game data (for faster load times) if possible.
There will be no splitting of the user base.

[XxSATANxX]

European prices for the console have also been confirmed at €299.99 ($368) for Continental Europe and £209.99 ($380) for the United Kingdom for the base version of the Xbox 360, and €399 ($490) in Continental Europe and £279.99 ($507) for the United Kingdom for the 'deluxe' bundled version of Microsoft's console.

Okay I was 9 dollars off!

[CapnAJ]

No one will be complaining this time next year. Well not about the HD issue anyway. ;)

[MongolHunter]

a $100 gets you a remote control, a headset, and a 20 GB hard drive that game developers have zero incentive to provide content for. That's...indescribably lame.

And pre-loading the HD with adds and major label music is really, really pathetic in my opinion. Why not just emblazon the console with a pepsi logo while you're at it?

"pre-loaded with music, gaming videos and more"

It's like when you goto extra's in videogames they have previews for upcoming games. I can see that and the music is probably just to show what you can do with the harddrive to newbie users. The $100 also gets you a wireless controller afaik.

[Savok]

Multiple versions of the same damn console has always pissed me off. The whole fucking point of a console is that you don't need to think about it, just grab one and a game and you're off.

[Xerxes]

I just don't know... I mean will there be games that has Xbox 360+ for those needing a harddrive or anything else in the fancy xbox... It's like they should of just waited... Waited until they could make a definitive machine with HD-DVD player, Hard Drives, Emulator, and whatever else... PS3 ain't coming out until 2008 or some crap...

[Cha-Ka]

It shouldn't be too hard to make a game check for an HD and store game data (for faster load times) if

Developers won't waste resources building in these sort of features when they'll only benefit part of the install base.

[Commissar Rob]

Wow. Well, I'd assumed that they wouldn't split the market. I guess on one hand the current xbox doesn't use the hard drive for much other than game saves...but humph.

Why open yourself to some pretty obvious attacks from Kutaragi and company like this? What impact will this have on developers? Will poor old FFXI get the short end of the stick again? Why develop a game that requires the hard drive now?

Gah. I've got one of these beasts on pre-order (although now, I wonder which one?)...but I'm really starting to wonder if I shouldn't cancel and do a little wait and see.

[Morratut]

I am dissapointed in MS not bringing out the HD as standard. :(

However i don't think it's as bad as what EGO said with his examples. For one thing the HD is out of the door straight away along with the console.Plus to play over Xbox live with and download updates extra maps,levels etc that will need the HD. I cannot see Xbox360 games not giving updates like the Xbox games.:)

I do think MS has now lost a advantage over Sony though. :rolleyes:

[earthworm48]

Well the PS3 will be much more and the HDD won't be included. Its also out much later.

As people have said it may be that there may be games that run without the drive, but will load faster/create caches if the drive is there.

At least with the HDD you won't need memory cards e.t.c.

its not the best desicion they could have made but its not going to ruin Microsofts chances greatly, at least I don't think so.

I don't think "Microsoft just handed Sony the Win" is the best statement I've seen.

They shaould have been looking at what happened to the PS2 HDD though. (Although I can't remember if it was more expensive, and possibly the length of time it took to produce had something to do with it's success? Although I doubt it).

[total]

Man, what a stupid fucking move. I love my Xbox, but this really has me second guessing getting a X360. Plenty of developers used the hard drive of the Xbox with Live, and this basically cuts the incentive of doing so next generation. The way they've released the updates for Halo 2 is brilliant. Get the early adopters and the addicts to pay the premium for the content (which is not a lot of money in the first place) and they've created a avenue of profit on a game they've already sold. What developer is going to want to push content through Live if there is a small niche market with little to no profit involved. They are taking an already small percentage of people, and cutting in half, or worse.

This, is a bad move.

[Xerxes]

Grimshaw is right... WHAT ABOUT FFXI NOW.... Sure it's 20 years old but it needs a hard drive doesn't it...

[Klade]

Developers won't waste resources building in these sort of features when they'll only benefit part of the install base.

Hit the nail on the head.

The HD will at best be something that you can download crap from xbox live onto. Of course without one will developers even bother making patches or content updates anymore? Yes I know they are not supposed to be making patches but they do. And now there will be no place to store them.

Why bother putting out a 5 dollar map expansion of most people probably won't be able to play it?

[Evil Avatar]

it's NOT splitting the user base. The hd would only be useful to store game data (making load time faster) and having almost unlimited save space.

You are right - they are not splitting the user base since no developer would be stupid enough to code games to take advantage of the hard drive. In effect, it is a $99.00 memory card. Pretty freaking useless.

And what is with it only having 20 GB? You can tell that even Microsoft thinks the hard disk is useless or they would provide a decent drive.

This whole thing just makes me roll my eyes.

[Justin_McElroy]

If you are saying that you're not going to drop the extra $100 bucks, and you are currently perusing Evil Avatar, you are a liar, sir. A liar.

You have until November fellas. C'mon...mow a few extra lawns or something. I can understand your frustration if you were just sidling up to the counter, but it's still a few months out.

It's just options. What hot HD features are you worried that developers won't take advantage of?

[Everlost_MI]

Uh, eh..WTF?
So let me see if I get what the big three has done or will do in the coming weeks...

Nintendo: Zelda is pushed back to next year, the $100 Micro GB is coming and the DS is less expensive.

Sony: PS2 is supposed to be $99 just in time for the holidays and the PS3 is coming by mid 2006.

Micro$oft (Don't give me any guff about the $ with the pricing scheme they just rolled with): They went back on their various press releases and statements by splitting their market with two different flavors of the 360. An EvAv member, doubtingthomas, in another post figured out that buying the high end w/ warranty, tax and one game the cost is near or above $600.

Did I miss anything?

[Savok]

What about the whole Xbox Live marketplace thing? Where users would trade content and micropayments and all that shit?

[Mrbunchypants]

how does this play with xbox live? will you need to buy the HD version to play games on live?

I guess you could download the patch every time you play the game on live..... thats the only way i could see it being done.

I guess we will have to wait and see witch console does better. Between the HD xbox and the non HD xbox. Is MS makeing more of one then the other in hopes there will be more demand for it?

I have a bad feeling about this.........

[Justin_McElroy]

UHHHH..Everlost?! Earth to Everlost!

You forgot....

ummm....

the...pre-loaded...music.

[Hellstorm]

I do not know why all of you are surprised. This information has been told to developers since March. Also it is REQUIRED that developers assume that the end user DOES NOT have a HD, so say goodbye to caching files. But hey, MS get's $39.99 off the memory cards you are almost forced to buy.

Oh you want limited backwards compatability and you bought the $299 package. Here is a nice $99 hard drive you can buy. Oh you want wireless, which comes standard out of the box in the Revolution? Don't worry, we have a $99 accessory for that too.

LOL. When MS said they were aiming for a profit on X360, they weren't kidding. So now are they not only splintering their userbase, charging more for a HD, which is only used mostly for BC for limited games, but they nickle and dime you to get full features.

PS and Rev got a whole lot more interesting.

[Phades]

I'm disappointed but really it's not that big of a deal. Microsoft already announced that the games wouldn't require the hard drive. The hard drive for the 360 has always been intended as a storage device Too bad, I was hoping it’d be $299 with a hard drive. I'm disappointed but some of you are overreacting a bit. It’s really not that big of a deal. Microsoft already announced that the games wouldn't require the hard drive. Did you think they were joking? The hard drive for the 360 has always been intended as a storage device for media, save games, and content downloads. Not forcing a consumer to buy that if they won’t use it isn’t a bad thing. If you need it, either buy the more $399 pack or choose your own hard drive (which MS has said will be available). Contrast this with the U.S. “value pack” (only pack) for the PSP. If you’re really stuck on the whole “faster load times because of a hard drive,” it really isn’t hard for a game to check if the hard drive is there and enable caching if it is.

On backwards compatibility, I’m also disappointed that the base won’t be backward compatible. However, that is something that is nice for a system to have but certainly not required as long as the system has decent games out there for it. Whether or not the 360 will out of the gate remains to be seen. It may matter to some on this site, but the average person is going to buy a new system to play new games and that “backwards compatible” bullet point on the box won’t mean jack to them.

[Cha-Ka]

In effect, it is a $99.00 memory card. Pretty freaking useless.

That reminds me...what ever happened to to the $99 memory card for PS2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00012TIWS/qid=1124293485/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8__i2_xgl63/002-4827011-0943266?v=glance&s=videogames&n=507846)? Oh yeah! That right...it fucking bombed on the market. Way to go, MS!

[Justin_McElroy]

It may matter to some on this site, but the average person is going to buy a new system to play new games and that “backwards compatible” bullet point on the box won’t mean jack to them.

Speaking of which, I'm assuming you'll have to but XBox 360 2 to be backwards compatible at all.

[Reanimated]

Bill Gates: "buy my way overpriced Xbox 1.5".

Kuturagi: "Checkmate".

[Xerxes]

Somebody go on the Xbox Live forums and ask Commanderr Mark or whatever what's up with xbox live and hard drive space... He alwyas answers shhhh on those forums...

[CapnAJ]

I guess that without a HD as standard, there'll be less of excuse to release bugged games and patch them up later.

[Everlost_MI]

UHHHH..Everlost?! Earth to Everlost!

You forgot....

ummm....

the...pre-loaded...music.

DOH! How could I forget that? That's the selling point for me! :)

[Hellstorm]

Speaking of which, I'm assuming you'll have to but XBox 360 2 to be backwards compatible at all.

You will have to buy the $399 model or buy the... kekekeke $99 20 HD. And then well, only certain games will be backwards compatable.

[CapnAJ]

And another thing. Is the new XBox 2 being called '360' in an effort to compete with the PS3? To make it appear its on a level playing field, instead of only being on the 2nd generation as opposed to Sony's 3rd gen console.

[Hellstorm]

Bill Gates: "buy my way overpriced Xbox 1.5".

Kuturagi: "Checkmate".

Reggie: "I got names to take and asses to kick. Who wants to go first?"

[Dr.Finger]

Evil Avatar is right MS just handed the upcoming generation to Sony. The biggest part of the MTV show were the standard wireless controllers and guess what? They're not [I]actually[I] standard! I don't know why MS doesn't simply release one SKU with a wireless controller and HDD for $350 and sell the headset and remote control separately and avoid the headache. I'll still end up getting the $399 version simply because it wil be cheaper in the long run than buying a memory card, headset, and HD cables but damn that sucks.

By the way, did you see how much the accessories are going to cost? $50 for a controller. $20 for a headset. $20 for a friggin faceplate! God only knows what a memory card will cost.

[Reanimated]

Evil Avatar is right MS just handed the upcoming generation to Sony. The biggest part of the MTV show were the standard wireless controllers and guess what? They're not [I]actually[I] standard! I don't know why MS doesn't simply release one SKU with a wireless controller and HDD for $350 and sell the headset and remote control separately and avoid the headache. I'll still end up getting the $399 version simply because it wil be cheaper in the long run than buying a memory card, headset, and HD cables but damn that sucks.

By the way, did you see how much the accessories are going to cost? $50 for a controller. $20 for a headset. $20 for a friggin faceplate! God only knows what a memory card will cost.




But did you catch the 100 dollar wireless adapter?

lol, the wireless card in my laptop cost me less than 20 bucks. Who do they think is dumb enough to drop 100 dollars on a fucking rinky-dink wireless USB adapter?

[Wonka]

What I have heard is that the HDD-less option is going to be nigh impossible to find.

I have also heard that it exists purely for legal reasons relating to making backwards compatibility affordable for MS (although this is more pure rumour than the 1st statement I made about the HDD-less option being rare as hens teeth).

As for how the units without a HDD will function, I assume that 1) they will not have BC unless you upgrade them, and 2) they will be able to connect to a windows PC or use a 64 meg memory card to store downloaded stuff. Being able to tap into PCs will be more difficult for Sony who does not control that platform.

As far as caching goes, I think that it has already been pointed out that this will not be nearly as helpful in the next generation. If it bought you a few seconds last time, and this time we are dealing with a fraction of that I can't see that being a dealbreaker even for the most hard core. But it won't matter, since most of you will be forced into buying the expensive version anyhow (presumably so that MS can more easily sell you stuff).

A more useful thing that MS can do (other than providing extra gear in every box) is to make it easy to call utility functions for doing stuff like caching. If it's a five minute job, then everyone will implement it. This will be true even if only 90% of the user base has a HDD in their console.

[Xerxes]

I thinking MS considers all there games the hottest... So when they announced the hottest XBOX 1 games will be playable on the XBox 2 I assumed all games... All games that everyone hasn't turned into gamestop or ebgames that is... I don't think Halo 2 is going to be the only game that works on Xbox 2....

Hard drives are needed for saves cause we don't use cartridges anymore, xbox live downloads, custom soundtracks, and aside from FFXI which they were so proud of I believe Vandguard and some other MMOFPS will probably need a hard drive.... I doubt anyone plans to buy a t-shirt for there tony hawk character, *** forgot we aren't girls therefore into playing dress up, atleast for $2 for something a asshat made...

They are splitting the market up, sue em, but it's not a retarded split... It's hardcore, US, and then there's your uncle who wants something around so he can feel cool... You KNOW you are buying the $400 dollar version, and when they find ways to modify the $300 version you gonna buy a few of those too after the price drop, and probably external hard drive too...

As Cartman would say, "Quit cha bitchin..."


Let me add when they come out with the $500 version, they'll be able to move those as well... More to media whore... The one they are reserving the media center 2005 OS for with a bigger harddrive and HD-DVD players... :confused:

[Borys]

The same will happen to PS3.

*sigh*

Well at least they won't take out the BR-Drive from the "Core Pack", that's one big advantage.

[earthworm48]

How much is that adaptor for people in the UK?

[Heretic Machine]

Fuck it, I'm a PC gamer.

[Demo_Boy]

Can I get the upgraded package without the wireless controller?
I hate wireless.

[goc_sin]

Ahhh.. life is good as a PC gamer. ;)

[divinechaos]

Damnit, now i gotta save 100 bux more plus another 60 to get Pefect Dark Zero. I think i'll skip the launch date and wait till the 360 cuts its price in half. In the meantime i'll save for the Revolution cause Nintendo aint gonna have this HD or "u cant use ur memory cards on the new systems" bullshit. Thank God for Nintendo.

[ÜberJumper]

Why are people acting like this is a big surprise? It's been known for months that there would be two models.

Don't you think Microsoft has thouroughly researched this? I'll wager they looked at all the cross platform development that's been done, realized that they don't need a hard drive because most console centric game studios don't develop with one in mind, and based their decision (at least partly) on that. They also probably just looked at how many Xbox games use the HDD for anything other than save games. Heck for backwards compatibility, they probably looked at how many games used hard drive swapping, figured out how many of them used more than 448MB of memory and realized that it was NONE of them. Production costs probably factored in as well.

As for all the crap about save games and storage space, heck, that's what memory cards are for. You can't play without one. The storage medium will be transparent to the game, all the game will do is check which medium is available, if it's got enough space, etc.

[edit] or maybe MS really wants all the developers to use the HDD and I don't know what I'm talking about :-/

[earthworm48]

There are still good PC games but I don't know how good life is when sound cards are rising to a minimum of $130, CPU prices are increasing (Athlon X2) and high end Graphics cards are $600 odd.

I know you can get a gamesworthy PC for less, but my A64 3500, 1GB Ballistix and 7800GTX still occasionally doesn't like Battlefield in places on full without AA, and jumped a couple of times on the F.E.A.R demo maxed out sans AA. I'm constantly worried about upgrading it and I'm getting sick of this now after all these years.

[Gil]

How can anyone be sure that this decision instantly hands Sony the win in the next generation? From everything I've read, the Xbox 360's HDD will still be used for downloads and save files and such, while Sony's selling their hard drive seperately as well, and early rumors question if Sony's HDD is going to be used for games at all.

Sure, it would be nice to have it standard, but they're not the only company making this choice, and they shouldn't be the only one's given a hard time over it.

[Ozymandias]

I don't get all these comments about MS having given up the game to Sony. What are you all smoking? Haven't you been watching the Kutaragisms coming out over the past months hinting at the high price of the PS3? "It'll be expensive", and "we want you to think you have to work extra hours"... I mean come on! It's a bit early to call winners based on price.

Unless Sony has some sort of magical way to warp time and space and jump ahead to the future to buy dirt-cheap parts, they're going to have the exact same (or greater) cost structure. Parts is parts, and Sony doesn't have any magical way to get them cheaper.

The *only* important thing in this next-gen battle is the games - the console with the games that people want to play is the one that will win. Me, I already know I'll have all three (as most of you will, too) - so why all the angst? Cracks me up... ;)

[Heretic Machine]

I don't get all these comments about MS having given up the game to Sony. What are you all smoking? Haven't you been watching the Kutaragisms coming out over the past months hinting at the high price of the PS3? "It'll be expensive", and "we want you to think you have to work extra hours"... I mean come on! It's a bit early to call winners based on price.

Doesn't matter, I'm not paying more than $350 for an XBOX 360 anymore than I would for a PS3. So, appearently I'm the guy they're targeting for the $300 model... Well guess what fuckers? I'm not buying a sub-standard console either. If I do buy a console this generation, it looks like it's gonna be the Revolution.

[bapenguin]

The same will happen to PS3.

*sigh*

Well at least they won't take out the BR-Drive from the "Core Pack", that's one big advantage.

Ya never know.......

[Ozymandias]

Doesn't matter, I'm not paying more than $350 for an XBOX 360 anymore than I would for a PS3. So, appearently I'm the guy they're targeting for the $300 model... Well guess what fuckers? I'm not buying a sub-standard console either. If I do buy a console this generation, it looks like it's gonna be the Revolution.

Sounds totally fair to me. You're right - some won't buy at any price above $300... but (and no offense intended at all), I suspect you aren't the target audience. I'd be stunned if these don't sell out at Christmas - ie, demand will be higher than supply.

Totally respect your position, though. I just think the majority of gamers either won't care, or will (to quote someone earlier on the thread) "mow some more lawns" and just ante up the extra dollars to get into the game.

Take care!

[Xerxes]

Pfft I upgrade my computer(or build a new computer) as I get a new console... I'm not a PC gamer, NOW that is expensive... Like earthworm said, new sounds cards, video cards, processors, ram, headsets for people wanting to do teamspeak, tweeks... PC gaming is ok when that's the only means like for F.E.A.R and World of Warcraft but it's not my primary means... Can't forget letting that sue happy dog loose by finding turned off code...

[Kefkataran]

Huh. How unexpected. Well, looks like I'll be waiting a nice long while before I get a 360 if'n it happens at all.

[Kelegacy]

Ya never know.......

No, I think if Sony wants their BR media to survive and take over, they'll leave the player in there as standard. Plus, most games will be on BR discs, so no, the Blu-Ray is standard.

I'm actually starting to believe the whole Xbox 1.5 thing now though.

[divinechaos]

u just read that the $300 360 doesnt come with a wireless controller. So they've been teasing us with "wireless" gaming and now they wont deliver? I dont wanna give the impression that im not a "gamer" cause im not gonna cough up 400 for a 360. I love my Xbox but i gotta give a big "fuck u" to MS for gettin my hopes up and then crushing them down. Couldnt they at least put a 10GB on the $300 360?!

[Hellstorm]

If I do buy a console this generation, it looks like it's gonna be the Revolution.


Joke post right? If not, hell just froze over. :eek:

[bapenguin]

No, I think if Sony wants their BR media to survive and take over, they'll leave the player in there as standard. Plus, most games will be on BR discs, so no, the Blu-Ray is standard.

I'm actually starting to believe the whole Xbox 1.5 thing now though.

The fact is....we still don't know what's going on with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray/HVD etc.

So even if they do go Blu-Ray....there may be little to no media available on it except for the games. Kind of makes it blind to the consumer then and not really an advantage.

[divinechaos]

Joke post right? If not, hell just froze over. :eek:

? Got somethin against the Rev?

[Xerxes]

No bones about it sony is going blu-ray... They don't want to back down with their format... HD-DVD maybe getting a boost dealing with microsoft.... Surveyors of all on your PC...

[doubtingthomas]

Without a Hard Drive in every system, how are they going to be able to patch games? Will they just not, and you have rampant cheating in online games? Or will they only for the people with hard drives, and people that don't have one just can't play online? None of this makes any sense........

[Wonka]

u just read that the $300 360 doesnt come with a wireless controller. So they've been teasing us with "wireless" gaming and now they wont deliver? I dont wanna give the impression that im not a "gamer" cause im not gonna cough up 400 for a 360. I love my Xbox but i gotta give a big "fuck u" to MS for gettin my hopes up and then crushing them down. Couldnt they at least put a 10GB on the $300 360?!

You can still buy a wireless controller for it, they are just packaging a cheaper peripheral with the cheaper unit.

Considering the cost of all these "extras" by themselves, $400 "looks" like a deal (relatively speaking of course). It's still way more than I paid last time...

[Draknodred]

I think it'll be fine, neither will be using the HD for games, I'm sure you can get a HD for the 300 dollar version if you really want, and the 400 dollar version is fine for those who can afford and if you can't then... get the cheap one or... that sucks =(

But I'm still getting one

Without a Hard Drive in every system, how are they going to be able to patch games? Will they just not, and you have rampant cheating in online games? Or will they only for the people with hard drives, and people that don't have one just can't play online? None of this makes any sense........

Well, like most consoles they'll have to release a game that doesn't NEED a patch, for the online cheating stuff usually that stuff can stay on their side but hopefully we don't need patching, enough of that BS on pc...

[Heretic Machine]

Considering the cost of all these "extras" by themselves, $400 "looks" like a deal (relatively speaking of course). It's still way more than I paid last time...

Will you still be thinking it's a good deal when they drop the price six months later at the PS3 launch? You know, when they decide that they've sold all they can at that price (for the people they know they will be able to make a sell to no matter what, the "suckers"). People are right, they will own the market for half a year, so they can price it at whatever they want. Personally, I'm offended by this price and the strategy surrounding it.

They may still have a following after this, I'm sure there are bigger XBOX fanboys than me who would buy it no matter what the price, but I think they've lost the informed consumer. They could of won this generation lock-stock and barrel, right out of the gate, instead they are throwing the dice on a risky strategy that isn't good for the consumer or the platform.

[Dr.Finger]

I don't get all these comments about MS having given up the game to Sony. What are you all smoking? Haven't you been watching the Kutaragisms coming out over the past months hinting at the high price of the PS3? "It'll be expensive", and "we want you to think you have to work extra hours"... I mean come on! It's a bit early to call winners based on price.

The *only* important thing in this next-gen battle is the games - the console with the games that people want to play is the one that will win. Me, I already know I'll have all three (as most of you will, too) - so why all the angst? Cracks me up... ;)

You're right that the games are important but this generation will still probably shake out the same way as the last one. The 360, just like the first X-Box, will have a lot of good-to-great FPS', M-rated games and racing games but no Japanese games (other than from Tecmo), no family games and a severe lack of games in any other generes (platformers, RPG's, 3rd person action, etc.)

The biggest advantages the 360 had were A) being first out of the gate and B) being (supposedly) cheaper at launch than the PS3. Well it's likely no longer cheaper at launch, so MS has blown half their advantage. Sony could still blow, but for now they're leading the pack in my opinion.

[Borys]

There are some *rumours* that a memory card might end up included in the $299 "Core System". I wouldn't bet on that seeing as every other console has launched without a memory card before.

[Jacob Singer]

Multiple versions of the same damn console has always pissed me off. The whole fucking point of a console is that you don't need to think about it, just grab one and a game and you're off.

Sheesh. If thinking "should I buy this console with or without a hardrive" is just too much thought for you, perhaps you should stick with board games or a deck of cards or something.

[IndependentGMR]

I can't wait until the following generation when there are 3 or 4 different versions of a console. I honestly think this is going to confuse a lot of people. Think about the casual gamers that don't know much about the hard drive, and wireless adapters. Some people might be pretty pissed if they buy the $299 version, only to find out that they need the hard drive to play the original Halo. And is it just me, or does the pricing on the peripherals seem a bit high? Ooooh, if I buy the $299 Xbox I only get a wired controller. But, I can purchase a wireless one for $49.99, plus a battery charger for $11.99. That's about 62 bucks for a fucking controller. Listen, the $399 for souped up version isn't all that bad in itself. But, when you add up everything you have to buy with it, your're talking about going well over $500. I think that's a little steep for some people.

[eatme]

Oh noes! MS has ensured that developers will aim for the HD-free version of XBox 360! Sony is totally going to wins!

Does anyone know what size hard drive all PS3s will ship standard with, btw?

[Heretic Machine]

Oh, and let's not forget that if you want to have face-to-face multiplayer you're going to have to pay a huge amount of money for a second wireless controller, and that you'll only be paying that price because Microsoft bumped up the cost of their junk to support the overpriced HD-bundle.

[Hellstorm]

? Got somethin against the Rev?

Have you ever seen Peri ever post any positive comments about Nintendo?

[doubtingthomas]

Well, like most consoles they'll have to release a game that doesn't NEED a patch, for the online cheating stuff usually that stuff can stay on their side but hopefully we don't need patching, enough of that BS on pc...

That's much easier said than done. Also, look at the most popular online console game Halo 2. It's been patched more than once. My question is, when people hack/find the exploits in Halo 3, will Microsoft/Bungie patch it since there are users out there without a hard drive? If so, will people without a hard drive be unable to play online? Or will their be two seperate server lists, one for patched and one for nonpatched games?

There's now 3 reasons I may not get this.
1. Price. I and others have posted that come to the final bill, you're spending $600 on hardware. Wow.
2. High Definition Drive. Will I get screwed as an early adopter when Microsoft comes out with yet another SKU that includes and HD drive. I could swallow the $600 price a little easier if I knew I was then through buying hardware for 5 years.
3. Will the Lack of a Hard Drive for all users screw everything up for the reasons I said above?

[motor]

Everyone needs to relax. The $299 price is simply there for the posters, retailers will be encouraged to push the $399 system, very few $299 systems will be put into the channel, a number of must have games will require the hd to perform at their best, and a good chunk of live's capabilities (demos, xbox arcade (which is going to be huge this time), preview movies, etc...) will require the hd. They just wanted to be able to say they are selling it for under $300 when in fact they are sell it for $399. It's all smoke and mirrors so Johnny can tell his mom, "But it's only $299!"

[Hellstorm]

That's much easier said than done. Also, look at the most popular online console game Halo 2. It's been patched more than once. My question is, when people hack/find the exploits in Halo 3, will Microsoft/Bungie patch it since there are users out there without a hard drive? If so, will people without a hard drive be unable to play online? Or will their be two seperate server lists, one for patched and one for nonpatched games?

There's now 3 reasons I may not get this.
1. Price. I and others have posted that come to the final bill, you're spending $600 on hardware. Wow.
2. High Definition Drive. Will I get screwed as an early adopter when Microsoft comes out with yet another SKU that includes and HD drive. I could swallow the $600 price a little easier if I knew I was then through buying hardware for 5 years.
3 Will the Lack of a Hard Drive for all users screw everything up for the reasons I said above.


People withouth a harddrive will get Live Silver: meaning they play free on weekends and with only certain games, where downloading isn't needed.

In the Nintendo's free Wi-Fi Connection service is looking pretty nice.

[MasterEvilAce]

Uh, eh..WTF?
So let me see if I get what the big three has done or will do in the coming weeks...

Nintendo: Zelda is pushed back to next year, the $100 Micro GB is coming and the DS is less expensive.

Sony: PS2 is supposed to be $99 just in time for the holidays and the PS3 is coming by mid 2006.

Micro$oft (Don't give me any guff about the $ with the pricing scheme they just rolled with): They went back on their various press releases and statements by splitting their market with two different flavors of the 360. An EvAv member, doubtingthomas, in another post figured out that buying the high end w/ warranty, tax and one game the cost is near or above $600.

Did I miss anything?

Whoa, guys. Calm down with all the crazy money talk. Don't forget we're also talking year-2006 dollars. Let's wait and see the effects of inflation, and then discuss. A $600 dollar console doesn't sound too bad after buying a $20 loaf of bread, now does it? And if gas magically drops down to 50c by then, all that money we'd be "saving" could be diverted to the console cause.

Let's be more reasonable, shall we? :)

[Heretic Machine]

Everyone needs to relax. The $299 price is simply there for the posters, retailers will be encouraged to push the $399 system, very few $299 systems will be put into the channel, a number of must have games will require the hd to perform at their best, and a good chunk of live's capabilities (demos, xbox arcade (which is going to be huge this time), preview movies, etc...) will require the hd. They just wanted to be able to say they are selling it for under $300 when in fact they are sell it for $399. It's all smoke and mirrors so Johnny can tell his mom, "But it's only $299!"

Which doesn't matter at all, since I'm ignoring the existence of the $299 console all together. The fact is $400 is too much for a console, they can keep it.

[eatme]

1. Price. I and others have posted that come to the final bill, you're spending $600 on hardware.

You may have posted it, but it isn't true. :) $400 for the main, totally playable, HD-ready system. Snag a $25 wired controller and make your slacker friend play with it if you wanna do split-screen multi.

[KNOTE]

It's all fine to me. They have some launch titles I want to play and some good announced games post-launch. The hardware is just a means to an end.

[bapenguin]

Which doesn't matter at all, since I'm ignoring the existence of the $299 console all together. The fact is $400 is too much for a console, they can keep it.

It IS quite a bit, but you ARE getting a bit more than you usually get with a previous 299 consoles.

You get a wireless controller vs a wired
You get HD cables vs. standard
You get a remote vs. nothing
You get a headset vs. nothing

[Heretic Machine]

It IS quite a bit, but you ARE getting a bit more than you usually get with a previous 299 consoles.

You get a wireless controller vs a wired
You get HD cables vs. standard
You get a remote vs. nothing
You get a headset vs. nothing


And if that were true then all it would mean is that there were too many features packed into it. But as it is, we will surely see the price of the bundle drop to $300 (possibly $350 if the PS3 goes way out there in price), meaning that the bundle at launch is being overpriced. Do you like being fucked by a company that you give money to? Because I don't.

[earthworm48]

I'd have not cared as much before this year. Fact is I got a 939 socket Nforce 4 PC as soon as I could as I needed an upgrade, and I've already gone from my 6800GT to a 7800GTX, and I'm having to look forward. The prices of things are rising (CPUs, Sound cards) and AMD are bringing a new socket soon already too (M2 in 06) with DDR2, then in 07 theres PCI-e 2 DDR3 and other stuff. My PC will be slow by the end of 06 beggining of 07 even if I keep my gfx card up to date ($$$$) so I'm having too look ahead, and I'll get £600 at the end of 05 then 06, and I guessed I'll have to save like £300 to cover myself for other parts. All without monitor as I got a 2405FPW recently. Then I hear about HDCP on monitors and SED screens on their way.

Without looking at upgrades past this. Also without looking at how many PC games are out between upgrades. This is why the consoles are appealing to me more than ever.

[crackeriah]

Which doesn't matter at all, since I'm ignoring the existence of the $299 console all together. The fact is $400 is too much for a console, they can keep it.

Did you buy a PS1 at launch? Because $300 in 1995 is worth $370 today. In that sense a $400 console isn't too bad really.

As for "splitting the userbase," I think everyone is seriously overreacting. The PS2 HDD, Sega CD, etc. were all add-ons made available late in the console lifespan and never reached more than 5-10% adoption. I expect the 360 HDD to be at least 30%, and probably more than 50%.

Microsoft made a good judgment here, because the Xbox HDD is killing the console's end-of-life. You will never be able to get a hard drive for less than $20 or $30, which means that the XBox will always cost that much more to make than the PS2...even in 5 years or 10 years. At least the X360 is capable of a budget version.

[earthworm48]

I would like to say as a gamer in the UK the price isn't too bad. In the past it always was $299 = £300, and the PS1 was like £400 (it may have been a little more I can't remember) so where we here are provided the premium pack for £280 not £400, more of us are going to be pleased.

[Cha-Ka]

But as it is, we will surely see the price of the bundle drop to $300 (possibly $350 if the PS3 goes way out there in price), meaning that the bundle at launch is being overpriced. Do you like being fucked by a company that you give money to? Because I don't.

You say that like it's something new or unexpected. It's no secret that waiting a year to buy the next big thing will get you more for your money at the cost of a longer wait. Early adopters are always screwed by the company they buy from. It's a grand tradition of retail. It's also tradition that early adopters fund the R&D that leads to cheaper manufacturing and the subsequently lower price point.

And thus the great circle of commerce continues...

[Heretic Machine]

I'd have not cared as much before this year. Fact is I got a 939 socket Nforce 4 PC as soon as I could as I needed an upgrade, and I've already gone from my 6800GT to a 7800GTX, and I'm having to look forward. The prices of things are rising (CPUs, Sound cards) and AMD are bringing a new socket soon already too (M2 in 06) with DDR2, then in 07 theres PCI-e 2 DDR3 and other stuff. My PC will be slow by the end of 06 beggining of 07 even if I keep my gfx card up to date ($$$$) so I'm having too look ahead, and I'll get £600 at the end of 05 then 06, and I guessed I'll have to save like £300 to cover myself for other parts. All without monitor as I got a 2405FPW recently. Then I hear about HDCP on monitors and SED screens on their way.

Without looking at upgrades past this. Also without looking at how many PC games are out between upgrades. This is why the consoles are appealing to me more than ever.

I don't know what world you are living in. My PC is three years old, and it still runs everything at pretty high settings. If I pop a new AGP 4x video card into it then it'll keep on chugging just fine for another two years at least.

I think some people need to re-evaluate the value of a 5 FPS increase in Battlefield.

Did you buy a PS1 at launch? Because $300 in 1995 is worth $370 today. In that sense a $400 console isn't too bad really.

Maybe to a proffessor of economics. In my house, $300 in 1995 is worth $300 in 2005.

As for "splitting the userbase," I think everyone is seriously overreacting. The PS2 HDD, Sega CD, etc. were all add-ons made available late in the console lifespan and never reached more than 5-10% adoption. I expect the 360 HDD to be at least 30%, and probably more than 50%.

And you base this on... what? The fact that XBOX Live (one of the key features of the original XBOX) never got more than 10% acceptence with the XBOX user base? Or the fact that everyone here who has defended this price scheme has said that the $300 "core" system was made to appeal to casual gamers (the people who make up 90% of the market)?

Microsoft made a good judgment here, because the Xbox HDD is killing the console's end-of-life. You will never be able to get a hard drive for less than $20 or $30, which means that the XBox will always cost that much more to make than the PS2...even in 5 years or 10 years. At least the X360 is capable of a budget version.

So, again, you're agreeing that the HD has now become either useless or somthing that will break up the user base?

[Zanzibar]

This sucks, sucks to high heaven. Unbelievably stupid. They've been working hard on the long-term vision for so long and to then make this major of a short-term fumble is just heartbreaking.

[Jacob Singer]

Do you like being fucked by a company that you give money to? Because I don't.

Wait a second. You "give" money to Microsoft? See, here I was under the assumption that I was paying a company money in exchange for goods and/or services. Silly me.

[Borys]

Live works on Memory Cards:

Hear it here on Major Nelson's Blogcast:

http://www.major-nelson.com/blogcast/2005/mnr-8-17-05-141-mp3.mp3

There's absolutely no need for a HD at this point excluding playing Halo 1 and Halo 2.

[Kefkataran]

Wow. Nice posts, Perigon. I'm in agreeance with you almost 100%.

[OUX]

I think you guys are all looking at it the wrong way. They aren’t splitting anything. Yeah hardcore gamers will shell the extra $100 out on it but what do you think Grandma will for a Christmas present? Hell no! (at least not my Grandma *sniff*) Their gonna look at the 2 and think “Wow I’m saving a hundred bucks! I must be really smart and no dumb like people says me am!” because they don’t know the difference so now MS has unloaded a HDless 360 from the shelves. Now what? Push the downloadable content! They will push it like mad till a HDless 360 is simply an investment toward a HDful 360. Granted some developers may not want to put out the DLC (Downloadable Content) but I am sure MS will throw in some incentives to sweeten the deal; especially since they have timing on their side. I’m predicting that there won’t be a lot of DLC until the PS3 launch. Why? Because they figure the hardcore gamers are gonna buy both (face it guys we are NOT swing votes) eventually. Now the choice exists for the average consumer (the ones they want because they are the ones that buy XBOX memory cards) “Do I buy another $399 console or reinvent my current 360 with all the new DLC for $100?” Decisions, decisions.

[Heretic Machine]

because they don’t know the difference so now MS has unloaded a HDless 360 from the shelves. Now what? Push the downloadable content! They will push it like mad till a HDless 360 is simply an investment toward a HDful 360.

Welcome to the world of 32X, bitches.

[Cha-Ka]

LoL Perigon. Good call.

[Atorak]

Jesus guys, I am normally in agreeance with most of the posters on EA, but wow are we at total opposites here. For MONTHS, almost EVERYONE has been speculating that there will be two versions of the X360. In a post months ago, I even told everyone that I heard some insider information "confirming" this fact, and that they'd probably be released at $300 for a barebones unit, and $400 for the bundle (check if you'd like!).

Frankly, I am HAPPY that the X360 is only $300, and I think $400 is a great deal for what you get in the bundle. Here, i'll break it down for you:

1. Memory Cards - Think about how many XBox and PS2 memory cards you currently have. Probably, one/two for the XBox and maybe 2 or more for the PS2? I know I do. How much did they cost you a piece, $30-$40 when they were released? Now, you get basically infinite save game space, and space for plenty of other things, included in a $100 package.

2. Controllers - How much did another controller cost for those systems? $30 for a wired, and $40 or more for a wireless? Yup, now you get a wireless one, included in a $100 package.

3. Remote / DVD - Hey, if you wanted to watch a DVD on your XBox, how much did the remote cost you? I forget, but I think it's in the neighborhood of $40. Now? Included.

4. Headset - My Halo 2 headset cost me $50 (yes, I'm nuts), but even the normal one was how much? $30? Included.

5. High-End A/V Cables - Sure, not everyone needs this option, but most of us in the future will end up replacing our old crap TVs with TVs capable of displaying HDTV. When that happens, I'm sure you'll want this cable....which, was previously $40.00, and you also had to purchase the digital audio cable (if wanted), which was another $30.00 I think.

6. Ethernet Cable - Sure, we all have them, but a nice bonus. Probably $5.00 at BestBuy.


So lets review:

Old XBox:
1. Memory Cards - $30.00 (or more)
2. Controllers - $30.00 (or $40.00+)
3. Remote - $40.00
4. Headset - $30.00
5. High-End A/V Cables - $40.00 ($30.00 for digital audio)
6. Ethernet Cable - $5.00

Total XBox Package Price: $175.00

Total X360 Package Price: $100.00


Sounds like a deal to me, since I think I underestimated rather than overestimated. Hell, don't pick up the system at launch, and just wait till Sony does the EXACT SAME THING with the PS3. Plus, around that time, Microsoft will be dropping the price to undercut Sony, which'll really make things interesting.

[OUX]

You also have to remeber another very important thing MICROSOFT IS SMARTER THAN YOU! I am sure they know what their doing more so than us and have more market research to work from than we could guess at. Again gamers may not like what they are doing but the aren't making it for us.

[Heretic Machine]

For MONTHS, almost EVERYONE has been speculating that there will be two versions of the X360.

And for MONTHS we've been saying that it would be a bad idea.

Sounds like a deal to me, since I think I underestimated rather than overestimated. Hell, don't pick up the system at launch, and just wait till Sony does the EXACT SAME THING with the PS3. Plus, around that time, Microsoft will be dropping the price to undercut Sony, which'll really make things interesting

Have you read any of this thread at all? We've already gone over everything you've said, and have already debated these facts.

Again gamers may not like what they are doing but the aren't making it for us.

...Then who exactly are they making it for? Mountain Bikers?

[Atorak]

Have you read any of this thread at all? We've already gone over everything you've said, and have already debated these facts.

Nope, this thread was WAY too long! :)

Sorry man, just giving my opinion. It's simple, if you don't like what Microsoft is doing, DON'T BUY THE CONSOLE! Bitching on EA.com is certainly not going to change the worldwide pricing for the X360. All I'm saying...one love.

[Hijinx]

Microsoft has just unveiled North American and European pricing for Xbox 360 and several peripherals. As rumored, there will be two types of 360s for sale this holiday - one bundled with a hard drive (and other items) for $400 and a stand-alone model (no HD) for $300. Chris Morris's Gamer Over Column (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/17/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm) on CNN Money has comments from Microsoft and more details.

This has to be the dumbest decision I've ever seen. With a low-end system on the market - developers will always shoot for the lowest common system requirements.

Microsoft just handed Sony the win.

I think its a 'lil early to call who is teh winnar. While I don't really care for the way MS is doing the dual launch, I don't think anyone can call it the day the price/systems are revealed.

Although, those with an anemic wallet are not going to like the fact that the 360 that has been pranced around the media is the $400 model :(

Bring on November baby!

[OUX]

The casual gamers make up the biggest market.

[Heretic Machine]

Nope, this thread was WAY too long!

Sorry man, just giving my opinion. It's simple, if you don't like what Microsoft is doing, DON'T BUY THE CONSOLE! Bitching on EA.com is certainly not going to change the worldwide pricing for the X360. All I'm saying...one love.

I don't plan on buying the console, and if we can't bitch on Evil Avatar.com then what's the point of having this site in the first place? Besides that, there are supposedly a few Microsoft employees floating around on this site, maybe they'll pay attention to what we're saying.

Some people underestimate the effect of consumer backlash on the internet. Then again, some people overestimate it too.

[ruceree88]

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubtingthomas
1. Price. I and others have posted that come to the final bill, you're spending $600 on hardware.


Posted by eatme:You may have posted it, but it isn't true. $400 for the main, totally playable, HD-ready system. Snag a $25 wired controller and make your slacker friend play with it if you wanna do split-screen multi.


I must say...unless you are buying the system with no games then you wont go much over the $400 price point. I usually like to get a couple games at lauch. At $60 a pop your talking $120 for 2 games plus $50 for a second controller. That is a grand total of $570 and thats not counting tax. All I am saying is that unless no one is buying launch games the final counter bill will be big, and thats just with 2 games and 1 additional controller.

[Murmillo]

hmm. why do we have two news posts on the same topic?.

[Atorak]

I don't plan on buying the console, and if we can't bitch on Evil Avatar.com then what's the point of having this site in the first place?

Hey, I love EA, this is by far my favorite news site. But, I just couldn't believe that people sounded so surprised by Microsoft's prices. They are pretty much in line with the last generation of consoles, so what's there to bitch about? You want prices to go down?! Plus, you get a hell of a lot more this generation.

Doesn't matter, i'll bite the bullet and pick one up.

[Heretic Machine]

hmm. why do we have two news posts on the same topic?.

Well, if you're talking about the two I think you're talking about, then one is about Peter Moore explaining the price (in a very Ken-like way) and the other (this one) is about the announcment itself.

[bapenguin]

And if that were true then all it would mean is that there were too many features packed into it. But as it is, we will surely see the price of the bundle drop to $300 (possibly $350 if the PS3 goes way out there in price), meaning that the bundle at launch is being overpriced. Do you like being fucked by a company that you give money to? Because I don't.

And this is different than any other console launch how again?

[Heretic Machine]

And this is different than any other console launch how again?


$100

Post... too... short.

[OUX]

And this is different than any other console launch how again?


The name of the console is much dumber.

[OUX]

$100

Post... too... short.


A POSSIBLE $100 you could always hit the $300

[Heretic Machine]

A POSSIBLE $100 you could always hit the $300

+ Hard-Drive

+ Extra controller

+ Network Adapter

That's just to have a console with as many features as the original XBOX... Personally, I don't like paying more to take a step down, do you?

[OUX]

You don't have to buy that stuff you can always rock out to the alwayss awesome single pl.........I can't even type this with a straight face.

[rein]

Wow. Nice posts, Perigon. I'm in agreeance with you almost 100%.

Same here... ...in my house $300 in 1995 is still $300 in 2005. :D

[Xerxes]

Perigon... You don't want a console we get it... Most likely by E3 they'll knock another $50... I wouldn't expect much more... You already said you're a pc gamer, so why you sweating the price so bad... Did you even want a console.... That $300 could by you a uber badass gfx card.... Ummm well pay for most of it...

[Heretic Machine]

Perigon... You don't want a console we get it... Most likely by E3 they'll knock another $50... I wouldn't expect much more... You already said you're a pc gamer, so why you sweating the price so bad... Did you even want a console.... That $300 could by you a uber badass gfx card.... Ummm well pay for most of it...

Because I've been a big XBOX fanboy since the day it came out and I've been very outspoken about how cool the 360 would be? Now Microsoft pretty much choked me on my own words.

[Xerxes]

And screw $300 in my house... I don't know what my house considers $300 cause it ain't my house but i know my wallet... 10 years ago considered $300 a freaking wet dream... I wouldn't have bought a console, I would of had to plan $300, at one time that probably would of been priceless... It was like 5 years after it came out when I got a ps1 for christmas as a gift when it dropped to like $120... Now as a adult, I burn through $300 like its money... Bills, loans, and shit I didn't even give a damn about in high school... But I still pocket enough for luxuries like a xbox 360... It's good to have a job... Although I may wait a until E3 to see a drop happens cause when xbox1 did it that shit was irksome...

[eatme]

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubtingthomas
1. Price. I and others have posted that come to the final bill, you're spending $600 on hardware.


Posted by eatme:You may have posted it, but it isn't true. $400 for the main, totally playable, HD-ready system. Snag a $25 wired controller and make your slacker friend play with it if you wanna do split-screen multi.


I must say...unless you are buying the system with no games then you wont go much over the $400 price point.

Agreed, but the OP said hardware. :) Absolutely, after you buy software and hardware, you start wondering how the hell you're gonna pay rent. If games launch at the rumored $60 instead of $50, well, more people than ever may opt to wait this out a bit. If there really is a price drop on the XBox360 when the PS3 comes out, that may be the better time to buy one. Until then, keep saving for the friggin HDTV you're gonna want too....

[Sense Field]

ok i'm alittle disapointed like all of you. My main problem is not the HD its the High Def cables and the wireless controler. I feel they atleast should have made the HD connection the same as the old Xbox so i could use my old hd cable and include the wireless controler. I can't help but feel cheated without those two pieces of equipment.

I look at it like this. I'm not going to use live because the wireless adaptor is $100 and i despise wires being run around rooms and its not worth it to run it through my walls to my computer room I'll leave online gaming to my PC and my PSP (microsoft this is your fault). If i wanted to have my system hooked up to my HDTV then i would have to buy the HD cable for 40 bucks (grrrr why can't i use my old one?) and the wireless controler would cost me 50 bucks (to me the wireless is part of the "next gen" gaming experiance so i must be liberated from my cords).

so there we have it I may as well get the $400 bundle but unfortunatly I feel alittle betrayed. I also feel this price point kills their chances of coming out #1. I would rather save up and extra $200 bucks the first half of 2006 to add to the $300 i already have saved up and GO WITH THE PS3. Lets face it i hate sony and in turn love xbox but they have sealed their fate. PS3 will come out on top and give me a blue ray movie player at the same time. Viva la PS3 <---never thought i would say that :(

thank you for listening to my rant and let us all hope that microsoft sees the light and changes their marketing plan.

PS: haven't we learned not to hire Peter More and not to make our systems white. and not to surprise the consumer. haven't we learned that from another company that once was stuck in a Dream of Saturn?

[Tennistoad]

Let the noobs get the CORE systems...We all know the only games we are gonna want are going to use the harddrive and live anyways..The Hdd will be needed once Halo2.5 is released,, how else are they going to stop the Haxo7s and stuff..

Plus it will be awesome..little "rap the whole game" Johnny's mom won't buy him the $400 one and I won't have to mute 4 out of every 5 live players..

[Kelegacy]

Same here... ...in my house $300 in 1995 is still $300 in 2005. :D

Yup. Next fall I'll get a 360 maybe. Or whenever a reasonable price drop occurs. Me, I'm not a compulsive buyer. No more launches for me. Let the other lemmings go over the consumer cliff. Even though I readily afford a console, I know the value of currency...plus I have my current Xbox and PS2 and PC to keep me occupied, with a huge backlog of games I havent played.

[netcraazzy]

I've read the rumors that this was going to happen but I was really really hoping that they were just rumors. This news brings up lots of new questions for me. How successful will the new LIVE features like xbox arcade and downloadable user content be if the harddrive is required for this? Will people be able to save downloaded patches and updates to a memory card? Do I need the harddrive for the media center extender functions? Will the harddrive be required to play xbox games on the 360?

[DeadPixel]

Has anyone ever considered that MS would release these rumors to see the reaction of forums on geek sites then take surveys and change their marketing? You all get so upset about something you don't even own yet.

[snubber]

Maybe to a proffessor of economics. In my house, $300 in 1995 is worth $300 in 2005.

Nice! The time value of money doesn't affect you because you're too dumb to understand it.

[Heretic Machine]

Let the noobs get the CORE systems...We all know the only games we are gonna want are going to use the harddrive and live anyways..

Ya, I'm sure developers will make something that will only work for 10% of the market! Right on brotha!

[Heretic Machine]

Has anyone ever considered that MS would release these rumors to see the reaction of forums on geek sites then take surveys and change their marketing? You all get so upset about something you don't even own yet.

...These aren't rumors, it was an official announcment. Go read the post.

[Tennistoad]

Ya, I'm sure developers will make something that will only work for 10% of the market! Right on brotha!

I didn't see any #'s on how many of each they are going to bring to market? For all we know 75% of all the systems might have the hdd.. Plus If live really needs the hdd to run. I can think of about a couple of million people who when they upgrade will get the hdd.

[Xerxes]

Maybe I'm too dumb to understand it as well... The only time value of money is in my head... The past ten years hasn't been such a drastic change as 1965-2005... I've been paying a dollar for 20oz Sprite for the last 10 years...

[Xerxes]

XBoX live will work off memory cards if you didn't here the blogcast although I have to wonder the size of these memory units...

[Kelegacy]

April Fool's everyone! I know this has to be an April Fool's joke. I'm not easily tricked!

Wait. It's August...Aww, fuck me.

[Heretic Machine]

I didn't see any #'s on how many of each they are going to bring to market? For all we know 75% of all the systems might have the hdd..

Well, then where is this whole "casual gamer" argument coming from? You know, the one that everyone is using to justify the existence of the $300 hd-less model that splits the market and destroys the platform. Because casual gamers are appearently too poor to afford the HD, so they'll be buying the $300 model, making 90% of the market full of hd-less 360's. That's the hole that is dug with the casual gamer argument, if you have to split casual gamers and hardcore gamers with different hardware, then the hardcore gamer gets screwed every time.

[Xerxes]

Perigon... Not everyone needs a hdd.... Like someone said only a handful of developers even used the hdd... Mostly for caching... Major Mark said in the dev kits it's there for the developers to add in the caching ability to those with Hdd... If you don't have it, sit back and enjoy a load time... You can still do soundtracks, live saves... It's not splitting the market as much as you say... All the games sold will work on both consoles....

[Kefkataran]

Nice! The time value of money doesn't affect you because you're too dumb to understand it.

Nice! You prefer mindless jabs and personal insults to actual discussion.

[bobbler]

I think some of you are overreacting here... It isn't as if it still won't be worth the price of admission.

The hdd as a chaching device is overrated this generation -- last generation it had quite a bit of use (and even then it was often negligable), but considering the DVD drive going into the Xbox360 is about 3-4x faster than Xbox1's DVD drive (making it nearly as fast as the little 2.5inch hdd which is probably the same speed or slower than the Xbox1 hdd) caching on an HDD is sort of pointless. The only purpose of an hdd is a big save card and downloadable stuff from Live!, if you want that then pay 399 and get the super edition and be happy -- you're still getting a deal, 400 for a console that'll last you 5 years is not something to be angry about.

I can't say I'm really surprised by this news -- I would have done the same if I were in MS' shoes... hdd is a costly and nearly pointless addition to most of gaming audience. If you want to make MS pay, buy the 300 dollar console -- they are probably losing money on it and gaining it on the 399 version! MS wants some ROI this generation -- you guys couldn't possibly expect another generation like Xbox1 where you got it everything and then some for 300, did you?

[Achilles]

The most common type of the 360 will be the one with the HDD. The ones without will probably end up being very rare. This is why developers will code to use the HDD.

If you think this is bad but the PS3 is fine, I don’t know what to say. The PS3 will be $400+ and still won’t include an HDD, and even if you buy the HDD for the PS3 you won’t be able to use it with your games. How’s that better exactly?

[OUX]

Perigon my question to you is this "What is your point exactly?" Yeah the smaller share of the market gets screwed. *shrugs* MS is first foremost and always will be a business. All the blathering they do about wanting to "lead" and "support" the gaming community is BS. Those speeches were all developed in a marketing meeting. And if anyone reading this works at MS and is offended sorry but you probably weren't in control on the decision the suits were. I consider myself a hardcore gamer I spend (never waste) countless hours on games of all types but I can't get upset about this because its business. I will buy the 360 and shell out the extra cash for the HD, then I will sell various organs to get 3 controllers and an adapter and then I will limp my way back to my apartment call my friends have them come over to play the 360 at which time I will suggest the buy pizza because I won't have any money to eat for 2 weeks. And then what about the PS3 and Revolution? Rinse and repeat boch, rinse abd repeat.

[EternalGamer]

The guy quoted in the GS article is clearly very right. The $299 model is a marketing gimmick for complete suckers. People who buy it will immediately have to buy the $39 memory card at the very least. Most will probably also want either a remote ($29) or component video ($39), or both. That is already more than $100 and you haven't even gotten the harddrive let alone the wireless controler or the headset.

To me the analogy of splitting the market doesn't really work because I think HDs will become almost obligatory (even if just as the default save mechanism). Especially now that the Hard Drives are now easily removeable. Who the hell will pay $40 for a tiny memory card given given all the extra space and extra stuff you get for $100? The only advantage memory cards had before were the portability and maybe the cost, both of those advantages have been effectively killed. The Hard Drive for the 360 is going to be alot more common than the memory cards (just like with the current XBOX). In fact they will BE the standard memory cards.

And since the HD is basically the default memory card for non-suckers, this talk of dividing the market becomes pointless. I never recall anyone arguing that selling memory cards seperate will "split the market." I don't know about you guys, but I have a hard time remembering the last game that made me put in passwords because the developers were too afraid of "splitting the market" between us memory card users and non-memory card users.

Don't worry Hard Drive advocates, the odds have been significantly stacked in the favor of your system being the DEFAULT system. The $299 Xbox seems more designed for the type of people who buy shop at Rent-A-Center and end up paying $1500 for a $800 TV. $299 gets you half an Xbox 360. But you end up paying through the nose for the rest of it via all the stuff you have to buy later. Those of us who end up paying $399 for 360s maybe suckers, but ironically those that pay $299 for one are even bigger suckers.

Dan

[ÜberJumper]

Come on guys, Microsoft's done their research on this. They're not doing this to fuck people over, they're doing this because the information they've collected and analyzed is telling them this is the path to take. That analyzed information is worth more to them that our (mostly) uneducated opinions.

I, for one, have no problems going out and spending C$500 bucks on a 360 on launch date.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

To me the analogy of splitting the market doesn't really work because I think HDs will become almost obligatory (even if just as the default save mechanism).

Yes, but that and custom soundtracks could quite likely be all developers will bother supporting. I'd be surprised if we see very many games make use of the higher functions an HD could theoretically provide. It's trivial to allow a game to save on both a memory card and a hard drive, but if you're caching a lot of data to the hard drive it's going to be a lot harder to make your game work on an HD-less system.

[PantherModern]

Bah. Thanks for making that decision for me, Gates and Co.

[Kefkataran]

I, for one, have no problems going out and spending C$500 bucks on a 360 on launch date.

I hope you won't mind if I put the emphasis on the "for one" there.

[Cha-Ka]

The most common type of the 360 will be the one with the HDD. The ones without will probably end up being very rare. This is why developers will code to use the HDD.

Three cheers for baseless assumptions.

Come on guys, Microsoft's done their research on this. They're not doing this to fuck people over, they're doing this because the information they've collected and analyzed is telling them this is the path to take.
That would have to be the path to the most money, because I'm pretty sure it's not the path to the best gaming experience.

[farley2k]

To me the analogy of splitting the market doesn't really work because I think HDs will become almost obligatory (even if just as the default save mechanism). Especially now that the Hard Drives are now easily removeable. Who the hell will pay $40 for a tiny memory card given given all the extra space and extra stuff you get for $100? The only advantage memory cards had before were the portability and maybe the cost, both of those advantages have been effectively killed. The Hard Drive for the 360 is going to be alot more common than the memory cards (just like with the current XBOX). In fact they will BE the standard memory cards.

Dan




I don't think you understand who buys consoles at the holidays.


Parents will have no clue about how great a deal the "extras" are for $100. They will be trying to save money so they can buy Timmy a game as well, and that sweater for Aunt Edna...etc.

The majority of sales over the holidays will be the cheaper model with a memory card and one game - all for the same price (or very close depending on how games are priced) as the "special" console.

[EternalGamer]

Yes, but that and custom soundtracks could quite likely be all developers will bother supporting. I'd be surprised if we see very many games make use of the higher functions an HD could theoretically provide. It's trivial to allow a game to save on both a memory card and a hard drive, but if you're caching a lot of data to the hard drive it's going to be a lot harder to make your game work on an HD-less system.

Yes, but that is all most developers use the HD for on the current Xbox as well and it does have a built in harddrive for every user. This probably has more to do with cross platform development and since the PS3 is also not going to have the built in harddrive now, that trend would probably have continued regardless. But those that do chose to take advantage of the HD, I don't think it would be much skin off their back to just delivery a shoddier experience for those without a Hard Drive since in my opinion those people without it will be part of a small minority in the long run. Perhaps not quite as small as the number of system owners without memory cards in the current generation, but close.

Dan

[farley2k]

Come on guys, Microsoft's done their research on this. They're not doing this to fuck people over, they're doing this because the information they've collected and analyzed is telling them this is the path to take. That analyzed information is worth more to them that our (mostly) uneducated opinions.

I, for one, have no problems going out and spending C$500 bucks on a 360 on launch date.


By that logic Uwe Bowell movies must be good. After all movie studios do their research too.


I think their are millions of examples of failed ideas, even by industry giants. Hell didn't Dr. Dos fail? Wasn't that MS? Didn't MS gain its footing becuase IBM didn't think the OS mattered and let Bill keep the rights? Was IBM stupid? yeah we think so now but at the time your comments about analyzing the data etc. would have applied to them just as much as MS now.

[DaedalusFolly]

Thank god some people finally started including the name of those they were quoting.. it's difficult to keep track of the flying shit if you can't see the targets.

[Ajezz]

I think it'd be interesting to dig up some forum conversations from 2000/2001 when there was a lot of talk about how the xbox was going to bomb and MS didn't have a prayer against Sony and Nintendo

Well they managed to take the #2 spot (at least in NA and Europe), despite some fumbles (ie. the big controller).

The HD thing may turn out to be another fumble but at the moment I doubt it. For those that want DL content and custom soundtracks it's still available you just have to have a HD which is available either as a bundle or seperately, it's not a big deal.

[BenSkywalker]

If it came with a HD-DVD drive for $400 I wouldn't bat an eye.

As it is- the launch lineup sucks, badly and there really is no compelling reason to jump on board early. Pay $300 for a console that can't play any worthwhile games, or $400 for a console that fails to pack a modern media drive..... neither is a great choice. I will not be picking up a XB360 now for some time after launch. This is the first time I'll miss a console launch in a long time but to say that it is shaping up to be underwhelming is a major understatement.

[EternalGamer]

I don't think you understand who buys consoles at the holidays.


Parents will have no clue about how great a deal the "extras" are for $100. They will be trying to save money so they can buy Timmy a game as well, and that sweater for Aunt Edna...etc.

The majority of sales over the holidays will be the cheaper model with a memory card and one game - all for the same price (or very close depending on how games are priced) as the "special" console.


I'm not sure about that. Why do you think these hideous "system bundles" are so popular everwhere from EB to Best Buy to even Walmart and Sam's. I have seen stores sell stacks of them, and they all come with piles of useless third party garbage. It is quite possible the parents will look at the Deluxe package as having everything they already would need in one box (which it does) as opposed to the other stuff they would have to buy seperate. The Deluxe set certainly is less confusing and more convienient and anyone who can do basic math will quickly realize that it is a much better deal.

Granted there might be some that would still go with the cheaper version because of budgets (I know my parents would never even think of buying me a $300 console when I was growing up let alone a $400 one), but I still think this will be a minority given the minor cost difference (after tallying up the obligatory memory card and other peripherals) and convenience. And even a large part of this minority will end up with Hard drives since the cheaper system was only a temporary fix. For the kid's birthday or when he gets extra post-Xmas cash off to the store he goes to get the HD.

Dan

[ÜberJumper]

SharpMonkey:

So then you don't believe that Microsoft having the best gaming experience would make them more money then? I'll wager that having the best gaming experience is pretty high on Microsoft's list of goals for this console. I'm also pretty sure that one of their goals is to have the best gaming experience possible for the money you can spend with us. Another one of their goals is probably to have the best multimedia gaming center living room pc entertainment console thing experience as well.

If they aren't a sucessful business, they won't be selling games. If they are not a successful game platform, they won't have a sucessful business. They're balancing their goals with business realities.

[ÜberJumper]

Farley2k:

You're giving historical examples of companies treading new ground and failing because their execution and other factors combined to produce a failure. Microsoft's got one fairly successful console under their belt so they've got lots of data and experience to work with. The console gaming industry is big money and there are more points of data and historical evidence to support decisions of this type.

Certainly this might turn out to be a turd, and again, all I'm suggesting is that Microsoft is doing this, not because they want to fuck people over, but because they think it's right for what the market will bear.

[Evil Avatar]

Ahhh.. life is good as a PC gamer. ;)

Yes, I'm sure you will enjoy both the PC games that get released this year. (Spore and AoE III, natch.)

[Phades]

Well, then where is this whole "casual gamer" argument coming from? You know, the one that everyone is using to justify the existence of the $300 hd-less model that splits the market and destroys the platform.

Wow, so the HD not being standard will destroy the 360? Amazing how important a feature this is. So will the PS3 die as well because the HD isn't standard? And the Revolution probably won't have one either. Crap, console gaming is doomed!!! I guess PC's are the only future for gaming.

[ÜberJumper]

Evil:

I'm betting on developers having access to a seamless interface to writable media (hard drives and save cards) that the game won't be aware of. The gamer will likely be shown how much space they have left, and if what they want to save will fit there. If there's two options, they'll get to pick between one or the other (or if a hard drive installed, by default it will go to the hard drive, with a Xbox control panel utility to copy to the Stick/Card).

But I'm not a x360 developer...

[Heretic Machine]

Yes, I'm sure you will enjoy both the PC games that get released this year. (Spore and AoE III, natch.)

*cough*Oblivion*cough*

And not the shitty console version either.

Wow, so the HD not being standard will destroy the 360? Amazing how important a feature this is. So will the PS3 die as well because the HD isn't standard? And the Revolution probably won't have one either. Crap, console gaming is doomed!!! I guess PC's are the only future for gaming.

Did I say that it would die? No, I said the platform would be destroyed. Which means that as a console, it'll have sub-par support for many of it's so-called features.

[Cha-Ka]

SharpMonkey:

So then you don't believe that Microsoft having the best gaming experience would make them more money then? I'll wager that having the best gaming experience is pretty high on Microsoft's list of goals for this console. I'm also pretty sure that one of their goals is to have the best gaming experience possible for the money you can spend with us. Another one of their goals is probably to have the best multimedia gaming center living room pc entertainment console thing experience as well.

I believe MS beancounters have determined that the HDD played a minimal role in the success of the Xbox. Rather than take a larger loss on hardware sales, I think someone in MS smells the delicious profits they could reap by selling one or two memory cards to each user. I think shuffling through memory cards diminishes the game play experience.

I believe the gaming experience in a world where all 360's have an HDD would outshine the gaming experience that the HDD-optional 360 will provide. Why? Because developers would be foolish to squander their resources on downloadable features that are only accessible to a limited number of HDD-equipped Xbox Live users. These features may not have dominated the Xbox experience, but I think they're one of the key edges that MS holds in the console industry. Since all Xbox users will have (at least limited) access to the next generation of Live, I feel downloadable content would stand a much better chance of growing in popularity if the 100% of the 360 install base had an HDD in their console. I think this decision will ultimately mean the death of patches and downloadable content on the 360, thereby diminishing the game play experience.

If they aren't a sucessful business, they won't be selling games. If they are not a successful game platform, they won't have a sucessful business. They're balancing their goals with business realities.
When it comes to selling things to the casual gamers, marketing campaigns and attractive packaging win out over quality workmanship every time. The world of casual gamers might not lament their inability to download new maps or game features for their 360 games...but I will.

[Xerxes]

Yoiu talk bad about the console version... While Morrowind ran smooth several forums had people complaining that it was choking there pc... Have fun with the upgrades...

[Heretic Machine]

Yoiu talk bad about the console version... While Morrowind ran smooth several forums had people complaining that it was choking there pc... Have fun with the upgrades...

I will, thanks! And long after your copy of Oblivion becomes a coaster, mine will still be living the high life with user-made content :) With any luck, I'll be playing a Moogle before 2007.

[EternalGamer]

If you think you will be able to use your hard drive for saved games... think again. Many developers didn't include the ability to save games to a memory card in the Xbox 1, since they knew that most people didn't have a memory card.

The reverse will be true in the 360... most developers will know you don't have a hard drive so you will only be able to save games to a memory card.

Don't say it can't happen, since it happened with the Xbox 1.

Uh.. the reason why some developers did not include memory card support was because some of the save files were too big to fit on memory cards. As far as I can tell, there is no reason not to allow people to save to the Hard Drive. The extra "coding" to allow that feature would amount to what 15 seconds?

Dan

[ÜberJumper]

SharpMonkey:

So you'll be buying the version with the hard drive then?

[Cha-Ka]

Sigh. I hope that's sarchasm, Uberjumper. I really do. :P

[bapenguin]

Yes, but that and custom soundtracks could quite likely be all developers will bother supporting. I'd be surprised if we see very many games make use of the higher functions an HD could theoretically provide. It's trivial to allow a game to save on both a memory card and a hard drive, but if you're caching a lot of data to the hard drive it's going to be a lot harder to make your game work on an HD-less system.

Isn't that all they support today? I mean...wasn't there a hard drive at their disposal for an entire generation and nobody used it beyond cacheing and custom soundtracks? I'd be curious to see what games did "more" with the XBox Hard Drive. We already know that Downloadable content isn't going anywhere, hell it's the new centerpiece of Live 2.0

[ÜberJumper]

SharpMonkey:

Well, that gets to the core of my point. You're going to buy the system for your needs. If you're a gamer who doesn't have broadband, doesn't care about downloadable content or soundtracks, has a small TV in your parent's basement right next to your bed, and you only play a couple of different games, or don't care about save games, the 299 version is for you... why would you buy more than you need?

Microsoft has most likely surveyed what people are buying and why. This will tell them that they can sell more of a "lower" speced machine to people who don't need more. It's a win win, MS doesn't lose money on building in hardware that the person's not going to use, and the person that won't need more hardware than they need will be spending less.

You want to download content, etc, you need the hard drive, you get the hard drive.

Bapenguin's point about historical info from Xbox also probably factors in. They know what people are using their hardware for. They're making logical and reasoned assumptions about what people are going to use the 360 for, and they know how developers are developing for the 360.

[Achilles]

Don't say it can't happen, since it happened with the Xbox 1.It won’t happen if the developers are required to support the HDD for saves as they already will be for user created soundtracks. The majority of 360s will have a hard drive, and games will be required to support it.Three cheers for baseless assumptions.They’re not baseless, I’m just not giving you the base. See for yourself when the 360 ships later this year just how many are shipped without an HDD.

[Phades]

If you think you will be able to use your hard drive for saved games... think again. Many developers didn't include the ability to save games to a memory card in the Xbox 1, since they knew that most people didn't have a memory card.

The reverse will be true in the 360... most developers will know you don't have a hard drive so you will only be able to save games to a memory card.

Don't say it can't happen, since it happened with the Xbox 1.

Although the purpose of the memory card in the Xbox 1 was far less substantial than the 360. If you had a hard drive (which the system CAME with) you didn't really need a memory card. If the standard came with a memory card, your argument would have some weight. Also, when you say "it happened with Xbox 1," that'd be true if at launch Microsoft had a bundle that came with the memory card and another that didn't. Heck, if that had been the case I bet they'd be more prevalent since some people would've figured there must be a reason for it.

[Zeal]

I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna buy the $300 console, put a 200gig harddrive in it, chip it and download

every. fucking. game.

Here's to you, Microsoft. Kudos on becoming another Sony. http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif

[Heretic Machine]

I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna buy the $300 console, put a 200gig harddrive in it, chip it and download

every. fucking. game.

Here's to you, Microsoft. Kudos on becoming another Sony.

I think you may be on to something...

[Cha-Ka]

It's clear that I don't share Uberjumper or Achelles' optimism any more than they share my negativity. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if 360 really gives HDD adopters their money's worth.

[Achilles]

I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna buy the $300 console, put a 200gig harddrive in it, chip it and download

every. fucking. game.

Here's to you, Microsoft. Kudos on becoming another Sony. http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gifBecause they wanted to take a $75 loss instead of a $175 loss on every system they sold. Yeah! Evil bastards, pirate their stuff, I propose a boycott, damn them for charging less than what it costs to make their system. Greedy dicks.

I swear some people really need to take a step back and look at just how little this matters. Some folks just love to be upset I guess, maybe they don't get enough drama in their daily lives so they have to manufacture it out of gaming news.It's clear that I don't share Uberjumper or Achilles' optimism any more than they share my negativity. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if 360 really gives HDD adopters their money's worth.Yep we'll see how it works out, nobody can predict at this stage what will happen. The only system that ever shipped with a hard drive in every unit was the Xbox 1. That will be true of next generation as well, only the Xbox 1 will have a hard drive in every unit. There's no precident for what the 360 is doing, including the PS2 because the PS2 HDD was not only an add-on, it was one that shipped 3 years late and was only able to be used with 2 games (no saves, no live arcade, no downloadable content, no custom soundtracks, no caching, no friends lists, no market place, no nothing).

[MasterEvilAce]

I'll tell you what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna buy the $300 console, put a 200gig harddrive in it, chip it and download

every. fucking. game.

Here's to you, Microsoft. Kudos on becoming another Sony. http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif
Why the fuck would you download when you can rent and copy?

God some people don't make any sense.

[Heretic Machine]

I swear some people really need to take a step back and look at just how little this matters.

$100

POST TOO SHORT

[earthworm48]

Perigon, out of interest, whats your PC spec, when did you buy it, how much did you spend, when and what are you going to upgrade next and what are you planning to spend on that?

[Alexious]

You know, I was all set on buying a 360... then I played God of War for the first time last night. Holy crap! I wanted to go grab a PS2 right then and there. If Sony makes another game like that on the PS3... well, price-schmice, they'll get my money.

In other words, like others have already said, it the games that matter. Things like price and who's first to market don't decide the winner. The games do.

[Zeal]

I fucking love these people who come in and defend something to the death. Microsoft could release a $300 peripheral that fucks you up the ass while vibrating and they'd try to logically defend it. I guess I'm just trying to get inside the fanboy mindset, because I really don't understand it.

These corporations do not care about you, you're not "fighting the good fight" by defending their marketing decisions, and you're not involved in somekind of holy console jihad. This ain't the fucking Mushroom Kingdom VS the Microsoft Empire VS Sony and Skynet.

Any consumer who has a lick of common sense can realize this dual console launch strategy is a bad move. It is not rocket science.

[Achilles]

I fucking love these people who come in and defend something to the death. Microsoft could release a $300 peripheral that fucks you up the ass and vibrates they'd try to logically defend it. I guess I'm just trying to get inside the fanboy mindset, because I really don't understand it.Yeah because flipping out and saying that you're going to boycott the 360 and steal their games because they're shipping an optional cheap version is a rational and reasonable response. Wouldn't the most reasonable response be to wait and see what kind of support it gets?

[Zeal]

Don't you just love it when people put words in your mouth. This guy must be from Fox News.

[Hellstorm]

Kekekekeke... Looks like Nintendo was right. Reggie and Iwata are probably high fiving one another right now. Lord only knows the manical laughter going on at Sony.

Yup, it's time for a Revolution.

[Kelegacy]

I fucking love these people who come in and defend something to the death. Microsoft could release a $300 peripheral that fucks you up the ass while vibrating and they'd try to logically defend it. I guess I'm just trying to get inside the fanboy mindset, because I really don't understand it.

These corporations do not care about you, you're not "fighting the good fight" by defending their marketing decisions, and you're not involved in somekind of holy console jihad. This ain't the fucking Mushroom Kingdom VS the Microsoft Empire VS Sony and Skynet.

Any consumer who has a lick of common sense can realize this dual console launch strategy is a bad move. It is not rocket science.

Where can I buy that peripheral? Sounds fun.

It looks like the consoles are on even ground again. MS still has Live!, but the other consoles are said to be working on online gaming strategies as well. So basically, aside from Live!, the PS3 will have the same features with a slightly better set of tech inside, along with:

Blu-Ray player
A shitload of wireless ports (hey, no multitap is a good thing)
Great Backwards compatability without need for a harddrive

Anything else I'm missing? Basically the systems are nearly the same, though MS doesnt support any next-gen type of media format right now. (Later, they say. Like I'm gonna go buy another Xbox360 LATER) It kind of pisses me off how the consoles are so lackluster in their upgrades, I mean, we're FINALLY getting wireless controllers but that's about it. New graphics, new looks, gay new names, yada yada yada. These are steps forward or backward. If I buy the barebones Xbox2 I have to buy a memory card as well? Oh great, looks just like Sony and their product whoring.

Sony and Microsoft, defeated by their own audacity.

I'm not impressed with the new consoles. Hopefully the Revolution changes all that and gives me a USB vagina to plug in and hump while I play the original Excitebike or A Link to the Past. And I bet that peripheral will come standard, in the box. Nintendo is good like that.

[ÜberJumper]

I don't understand the hostility over the price point.

Are you angry because the $299 system doesn't have a hard drive in its bundle?

or

Are you angry because the $399 system has a hard drive, wireless controller, dvd remote, ethernet cable, and HDTV pack in its bundle?

or

Are you angry because you want more for less?

Historical fact, bare bones Xbox with one controller and HDD sold for $299.

[Rommel]

-Holds his hands to the sides, taking his well-deserved beating- Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow.

[Achilles]

Don't you just love it when people put words in your mouth. This guy must be from Fox News.Right. Care to clarify? Here's your original post.

“I'm gonna buy the $300 console, put a 200gig harddrive in it, chip it and download
every. fucking. game.
Here's to you, Microsoft. Kudos on becoming another Sony.”

And to add more clarity to your stance on the 360 here's a post from an earlier thread:

"Considering all 360 games look worse if not identical to this generation's, and based on the fact that everything Sony showed at E3 was bs, I'm not listening to either at this point."

[ÜberJumper]

Side note, as far as I know, there's no final hardware, so a lot of games are shown without a lot of graphical features turned on.

[earthworm48]

Gears of War as good as current gen?

My old TV's worse than I thought it was.

[Draft]

Now we just need Nintendo to dissapoint with the Rev and we can call this whole generation a wash. Viva la PC gaming?

[kokyunage]

Viva la PC gaming?

Quake4 this year :-) That should be a good primer and warmup for Quake Wars.

[Achilles]

Quake4 this year :-) That should be a good primer and warmup for Quake Wars.I can't wait for Quake Wars. At first I thought it was neat but wasn't particularly interested, but after seeing it with the Enemy Territory logo in front of it I nearly hit the floor. I had no idea it was being made by the same people. Now it's easily one of my most anticipated games.

[mister_slim]

Maybe I should just go take a nap and ignore this whole thing.

As someone cynical about MS anyway, I think MS made the right decision. The major thing that annoyed me about MS (besides the whole Psychonauts/Tork/Oddworld: Stranger/Phantom Dust thing) was that they were just throwing money into the box, rather than actually looking at gaming as a business. How many generations would they have to dominate as Sony has the last two to recover their losses from the Xbox? They've obviously been making the hard decisions and trying to actually book some profits.

This is going to make the PS3 launch much more interesting, as well. I still expect the PS3 to launch at $300 or $350, and there will probably be an optional hard drive available. If they go with 80 gigs for $100, that's going to reflect well on them. Their controllers and whatnot will probably be cheaper as well (I have no idea how MS is pricing a wireless controller at that, with the very nice Wavebird and Logitech controllers available for much less).

Meanwhile, Nintendo is sitting back and chuckling. I think the Rev will look pretty close to the 360 and PS3, especially without a HDTV, with wifi and half a gig of internal memory, and at probably half the price.

To be honest, I've been expecting the other shoe to fall for a while now, and thanks to Carmack and this, we've gotten the first of our next-gen reality checks.

[Kefkataran]

To be honest, I've been expecting the other shoe to fall for a while now, and thanks to Carmack and this, we've gotten the first of our next-gen reality checks.

Nice, succinct way of putting it. Impressive sentence.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Whoa, guys. Calm down with all the crazy money talk. Don't forget we're also talking year-2006 dollars. Let's wait and see the effects of inflation, and then discuss. A $600 dollar console doesn't sound too bad after buying a $20 loaf of bread, now does it? And if gas magically drops down to 50c by then, all that money we'd be "saving" could be diverted to the console cause.

Let's be more reasonable, shall we? :)

Tell you what, when you find a $20 dollar loaf of Bread at Albertson's, then I'll plunk down $600 on a 360.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

This sucks, sucks to high heaven. Unbelievably stupid. They've been working hard on the long-term vision for so long and to then make this major of a short-term fumble is just heartbreaking.
Couldn't agree more.
I just got home from work to see this...it is somewhat dejecting. I really thought MS came to play this go-round, but, it is not to be...

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Welcome to the world of 32X, bitches.

Ha, Ha, Ha!!!

My 32x is chillin in storage right now. I think even it is getting a good laugh. I think the ghost of Sega's past has invaded MS.

[roboflavinoid]

This doesn't change anything, and I'm not talking about splitting the user base.

The only thing that people were using the HD for was Live, right? Well-- Live will still exist, so it will depend on the HD, right? So, developers will have to use the HD, right? Otherwise, no Live content?

You know, they weren't using the HD for anything else... at all. Not performance or any function other than saved data. Games not using Live will be totally unaffected by this.

SMILE! :) seriously, IT'S OK, NO ONE IS RUINING YOUR DAY!

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I don't think you understand who buys consoles at the holidays.


Parents will have no clue about how great a deal the "extras" are for $100. They will be trying to save money so they can buy Timmy a game as well, and that sweater for Aunt Edna...etc.

The majority of sales over the holidays will be the cheaper model with a memory card and one game - all for the same price (or very close depending on how games are priced) as the "special" console.
I have to agree. The parents of little Timmy will be like "I promised him a 360....just not the expensive one!!"

MS will definitely move less units if they do not have a good stock of the $299 variety xbox on the shelf. The kids can get accessories with their gift cards. My guess is that the kids will get one $299 box and 1 game. Most parents probably can't afford getting their child a $400+ toy plus a bunch of other gifts.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

First off, I'm going for the $399 version.
Second, I do not like it. It is however, the best 'value'.

My gripes are as follows:

1) Microsoft hasn't seemed to learn about perception. Sony kicked their a$$ at E3 with smoke and mirrors and a bunch of very pretty trailers. People perceived that the PS3 was capable of so much more, but in actuality the system wasn't even fully designed yet (or even that close if all of the changes we've heard about are correct). So, MS is going to let the perception that it is launching with two separate systems and that the HD really isn't all that important to gaming.
2) To all the MS fanboys who said that the PS3 was dead without a HD and now they are changing their tune. Call it the same both ways people. If the lack of an HD was a problem in the PS3, call it a problem in the 360.
3) Until I hear something concrete to refute this, anyone who buys the $299 version doesn't have a way to play their old Xbox 1 games. Since I'm buying the $399 ($600 Xbox360) I won't have to worry about it...but some people will.
4) The 20GB HD is WAY overpriced. We could get a bigger HD for a lot less money on a PC. Do a quick survey on the net and determine how much a 20GB HD should cost you.
5) If they are bundling it this way, why in god's name didn't they have a HD-DVD package at the start?? You will offer a HD-DVD version maybe 6-8 months after launch?? Son of a beyatch!!

But I do have some good news...
I just saved a sh!tload of money by switching my car insurance to Geico.:D

[Kagger]

This is interesting....I don't know if it was in this thread...but the person who posted the 6 or so market splits...and reading the list was a treat.


My sound card is one I got from some 486's/pentium 1 computers from my school...I couldn't tell you who made it...but its got a mic and speaker support...and it was free.

MS will definitely move less units if they do not have a good stock of the $299 variety xbox on the shelf. The kids can get accessories with their gift cards. My guess is that the kids will get one $299 box and 1 game. Most parents probably can't afford getting their child a $400+ toy plus a bunch of other gifts.

If I was interested in an Xbox 360..and wanted a real Christmas...I'd have to buy some of it on my own. I put in 150 dollars for my ps2...money well spent. My dad likes big Christmas...around 500 dollars....its interesting to budget...and consoles are just nutso. I've only ever asked for one for Christmas (NES and SNES were family gifts)

[Kelegacy]

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce
Whoa, guys. Calm down with all the crazy money talk. Don't forget we're also talking year-2006 dollars. Let's wait and see the effects of inflation, and then discuss. A $600 dollar console doesn't sound too bad after buying a $20 loaf of bread, now does it? And if gas magically drops down to 50c by then, all that money we'd be "saving" could be diverted to the console cause.

Let's be more reasonable, shall we?

You know, I just consolidated my student loans because the Federal Government feels the need to jack up my interest rates. That's what being a dutiful student gets you, but whatever. By consolidating, I just saved myself 50ish bucks a month and a lower interest rate that protects me from the government's price hikes in the future.

But then I am told earlier this month that rent will go up in the winter, due to the astronomical price of heating oil (65 bucks a barrel for crude!!). Also, I have to pay again at the pump. My SAAB 9.5 gets okay gas mileage, but I still have to drop nearly 40 bucks to fill the bitch. I dont know, i havent filled it to the brim in a long time...I refuse to pay over 30 in a single gas-up. It's like a non-lubed anal raping every time I pull into the station.

I also refinanced my car recently. I'm saving a whole 10 fucking bucks a month now. I also have a personal boycott on Wal-Mart, so instead of saving .23 cents on toilet paper, I shop at a local grocery store for all of my supplies, food and otherwise.

I have a decent job and I live alone and thankfully I'm single right now, but if I had to pay 20 bucks for a loaf of bread, I'd start to make my own or move to Amish country. Paying 500-600 bucks for a console is ridiculous, but it's the price people will have to pay in order to own ONE new game and get a hard drive for backwards compatability and to use XB LIVE! to its fullest capacity.

I may not seem like a hardcore gamer when I say I'm going to wait out this launch and pick one up later after a price drop, but I still am. I'm not cheap, I just am realistic on the value of money. I waited this past round for my XB and I still got to play all the same games as everyone else, but at a greatly reduced price. Patience is a virtue, and it is a virtue I have in spades. It is not for everyone, especially people with capitalist America breathing down our back, teaching us that money is meant to burn through our pockets, not to be saved.

I'm not a Communist, but I play one on T.V.

[Kelegacy]

5) If they are bundling it this way, why in god's name didn't they have a HD-DVD package at the start?? You will offer a HD-DVD version maybe 6-8 months after launch?? Son of a beyatch!!


Yikes! 3 versions of the 360? Or will the HD-DVD version be WITH and WITHOUT HDD support. That would make 4 models? Holy shit my head hurts.



But I do have some good news...
I just saved a sh!tload of money by switching my car insurance to Geico.:D

:) Classic.

[Evil Avatar]

I just wanted to thank everyone who participated in this thread. It really didn't get out of hand at all and there is some very interesting discussion.

I think we know what me and bapenguin and Everlost_MI are going to do... we are game whores and we will buy the $400.00 version the first day. Heh!

And when the PS3 comes out... we will buy that one too. :)

You have to admit... at $400 (around $749.99 for me - including a VGA cable, one game and a 19" Monitor) the Xbox 360 is still less than the price of a NVIDIA 7800 card. How can you go wrong with 5 years of gaming for that price? I know I'm still getting my $299.99 worth out of my first Xbox (and my $149.99 worth out of my Playstation 2 and my freebie Gamecube from Silicon Knights.).

The only system I'm not going to buy on opening day is the Revolution, because I know that the game release schedule will be so slow that I won't need to pick up the system for six months until there is a game out for it that I want.

Oh, and NAMCO RULES! (They paid me to say that.)

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Yikes! 3 versions of the 360? Or will the HD-DVD version be WITH and WITHOUT HDD support. That would make 4 models? Holy shit my head hurts.




:) Classic.

Thanks Kel, that carries some weight w/me....but I forgot one thing!!!

I checked Gamstop for release dates on games...It would appear that Oblivion isn't launching day one....nor is Saint's Row. These were two titles I planned on having day one. This just keeps getting 'better' and 'better'. They have Plain Shi...I'm sorry Frame City Killer coming out a few weeks late and Huxley is schedule for day one.

I don't put too much stock in the list as there is no way Huxley launches day one. But MS has made me look pretty hard towards a PS3 when it launches.

[Heretic Machine]

The only system I'm not going to buy on opening day is the Revolution, because I know that the game release schedule will be so slow that I won't need to pick up the system for six months until there is a game out for it that I want.

Smash Brothers, biyotch. Smash Brothers.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Isn't that all they support today? I mean...wasn't there a hard drive at their disposal for an entire generation and nobody used it beyond cacheing and custom soundtracks.

Yes, and that's the point. I was hoping that would change in the next generation. I imagine a lot of people had the same hope. The odds of that happening have just decreased dramatically.

[Nessus]

Unless MS does only produce the HD-less version in such limited quantities that it may as well not exist, then I'm thinking Nintendo has the best strategy for internal storage out of the 3 new consoles.

Sure it's only half a gig, but it's looking like it'll be the only one that comes with internal storage standard. Every Revolution console will have that, and developers can count on it.

So at the very least you won't need to buy a memory card to save games.

And it'll almost certainly come standard with a wireless Revolution controller, and with Wi-Fi out of the box.

Personally I find it more insulting that MS wouldn't include the wireless controller with the base system, when they've been going on for months about how the wireless controllers will be standard.

And a $100 Wi-Fi adapter? My laptop's wireless card was like $27.


"1. Memory Cards - Think about how many XBox and PS2 memory cards you currently have. Probably, one/two for the XBox and maybe 2 or more for the PS2? I know I do. How much did they cost you a piece, $30-$40 when they were released? Now, you get basically infinite save game space, and space for plenty of other things, included in a $100 package."

I know I didn't buy any memory cards for my Xbox BECAUSE IT HAS A HARD DRIVE.

[Mac]

Aw, fuck. This is really kicking me in the balls. I mean, from a casual gaming point of view, like the Uncle who occasionally will boot up a bass fishing game, it works out great, but this is killing me. An extra 100 dollars as a college student is a big deal, especially if it's something that may not be used to it's full potential.

Shit. I really don't know what I'm going to do.


Edit: Any advice guys?

[ÜberJumper]

Wait for the add on hard drive from external vendors for 50 bucks for 100GB.

[Kefkataran]

Edit: Any advice guys?

Wait for the Revolution.

/shifty eyes

[Mac]

Wait for the Revolution.

/shifty eyes

Yeah..not going to happen.

[Leaving Hope]

I'll just wait until the XBox 2 drops $100 from its original price, and then pick up the HD version. I figure the price drop could happen as early as the PS3 release date and as late as next Christmas. I'm in no rush.

I'm usually an early adopter, but this has pissed me off enough to make me wait.

[Kefkataran]

Yeah..not going to happen.

Fool.

That said, I'm planning to do what Leaving Hope is doing with 360 and PS3 probably as well.

[Mac]

Fool.

That said, I'm planning to do what Leaving Hope is doing with 360 and PS3 probably as well.
Hey, shut it, buddy. It's my perogative and my choice and I'm more interested in what Microsoft and Sony have been offering and intend to be offering.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Did anyone notice that the dirty f-ers didn't even give us the release date?? I was so irritated at the tiered launch that I totally forgot about this. Sons of beyatches!!!!

[Evil Avatar]

Did anyone notice that the dirty f-ers didn't even give us the release date?? I was so irritated at the tiered launch that I totally forgot about this. Sons of beyatches!!!!

November 4th.

[Azrikam]

That's pretty much guaranteed that I won't be buying a 360. I refuse to buy memory cards for any console. Course, that means I won't own a PS3 either.

Maybe it's time to get back into PC gaming?

[earthworm48]

What will the rev use then?

[score]

Unless MS does only produce the HD-less version in such limited quantities that it may as well not exist, then I'm thinking Nintendo has the best strategy for internal storage out of the 3 new consoles.

I don't think any of the Rev details are set in stone. In light of the revelations by MS I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo turned around and said we're not including internal storage as standard anymore (they changed some of the GC specs at the last minute.. making it slightly less powerfull as far as I recall). Depends how closely its tied in with their backwards compatibility/download games idea but I imagine it could be done just as easily with memory cards instead.

Anyway. To conclude: Expect alot more flip-flopping from all of the big 3.

*edit* oh and Earthworm, the Rev is scheduled to use 512mb of internal flash memory...

[Kefkataran]

Hey, shut it, buddy. It's my perogative and my choice and I'm more interested in what Microsoft and Sony have been offering and intend to be offering.

I was just joking. Chill. It's cool with me.

[Kelegacy]

I was just joking. Chill. It's cool with me.

Yeah, shut the fuck up, Kef.

[Kefkataran]

Yeah, shut the fuck up, Kef.

As if I could stay angry at an ass like that.

[Kelegacy]

As if I could stay angry at an ass like that.

I've just discovered the EvAv buddy list, and I've been adding respectable people to it routinely in the past couple days. Sadly, you are not part of this exclusive club, Kefkataran.

Kidding. But the list is growing. What it's function is, I have no clue.

[dr_wily]

its not bad being a year out of the loop if you can control it.

Read the overspent american
watch fight club

dont buy shit you dont need (yet)
finish the games you have already started (and not even opened, i raise my hand to that)

and after that, buy games you wanted to try out but couldnt get around to that are already reduced to 20$

once youve caught up (if ever). you are now free to purchase the system you want. All the games have been reviewed and filtered, the console price is dropped, and potential hacks are discovered. good all around

random piece of advice #642: buy a tivo/replay/dvr. For every hour of tv watched a week you spend 200+ dollars more a year. (example: 8 hrs a week = 1600$ of random impluse purchases)

[Heretic Machine]

random piece of advice #642: buy a tivo/replay/dvr. For every hour of tv watched a week you spend 200+ dollars more a year. (example: 8 hrs a week = 1600$ of random impluse purchases)

...But the things I buy usually aren't advertised on TV...

[OUX]

So that would be what? Smokes or pr0n?

[Nessus]

"I don't think any of the Rev details are set in stone. In light of the revelations by MS I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo turned around and said we're not including internal storage as standard anymore (they changed some of the GC specs at the last minute.. making it slightly less powerfull as far as I recall)."

Quite right. Though I think the internal flash is a requirement for downloading the roms. The Revolution (as of E3) doesn't have any proprietary memory cards, they just have the internal flash and SD card slot.

[Kelegacy]

So that would be what? Smokes or pr0n?

MALE order brides.

Get it? Male? Ha, I kill myself!

No, really. (*kills himself)

[RandomViolence]

You gotta stop doing that.

The cost to bring your tattered corpse back from Hades is getting exhorbitant :).

[DaedalusFolly]

Considering I just bought a used Xbox 3 months ago (with +30 games), I'll be happily entertained in my bunker while the big three salt the earth of the next generation. Then, to emerge and side with the winner!

[Kelegacy]

You gotta stop doing that.

The cost to bring your tattered corpse back from Hades is getting exhorbitant :).

I appreciate the energy spent resurrecting my body and restoring my pulpy melon to its original state. Really, sometimes I'm too impulsive and I kill myself before thinking of the consequences. Thanks.

But this time...I think I brought something BACK with me...

[Twigz'N'Berries]

November 4th.

I stand corrected, thanks EA.
I had heard it would be Nov 4th, but I didn't see where they officially announced it. Which site did you find it on?

This people is why we need to donate to EvilAvatar. It was the best $10 I've ever spent on the gaming industry! Go donate already!!

[Kelegacy]

I stand corrected, thanks EA.
I had heard it would be Nov 4th, but I didn't see where they officially announced it. Which site did you find it on?

This people is why we need to donate to EvilAvatar. It was the best $10 I've ever spent on the gaming industry! Go donate already!!

10 dollars? Jeez, if I had known that was all I needed to give I wouldnt have removed my only remaining kidney and sent it in the mail to Evil. A year ago Chinese Organ Thieves stole my other one. Ugh, I dont feel so good right now.

Anyone know a good Nephrologist?

[OUX]

But this time...I think I brought something BACK with me...

Snowglobe? T-shirt? Shot glass? does hades even have a gift shop cause that would be so sweet...

[mister_slim]

I hope it's not one of those damned helper demons. Sure, they're damned alright, but they're not helpful at all. It's like some shit-throwing, arm biting helper monkey, but filled with malevolence and armed with occult powers.

If so, find yourself a reputable demon-banisher as soon as possible (Keanu Reeves doesn't count).

[Kelegacy]

Snowglobe? T-shirt? Shot glass? does hades even have a gift shop cause that would be so sweet...

No. Actually I was made to swallow a Hell-Condom filled with Helleroin. Some Morlocks on Earth made me shit it out and then they paid me with a large sum of Hellish money. A lot of fucking good that shit will do here on Earth...it's like using Canadian money south of the border. Damned useless.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I don't know what the rest of these guys are talking about. I just wanted a link to a confirmed site that says 360 is coming out Nov 4th. I have to put in my vacation requests now.