Next-Gen: Has The 360 Peaked?

[RorschachCCCLX]

An interesting point of view [courtesy of Next Generation (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9148&Itemid=2)] and one that highlights the pitfalls Microsoft faces going forward. [Some choice quotes:]

Software is where the real money lies, and the 360 boasts an attach rate of seven games per console, far in advance of Nintendo and Sony.
Many of those traits are shared by the breadth of the 360’s software catalogue: first person shooters, deep racing titles, third person action adventures, sports titles and old-school JRPGs. These are gamer’s games, traditional games, and, importantly, some of the greatest ever made.
The Ring of Death could yet prove an albatross around the neck of the 360’s future ambitions as an entertainment and multimedia device.
My own thoughts: I find it interesting it doesn't take a sudden rush of great games to the PS3 for the system to suddenly gain momentum, it only takes a drought of good games hitting the 360. PS3 sales have picked up and it seems the Sony brand has finally reestablished itself.

[Dukefrukem]

I think a lot has to do with their 2008 lineup. Gears of War 2 is the only 360 game that is appealing to me now.

[Mdot23]

My own thoughts: I find it interesting it doesn't take a sudden rush of great games to the PS3 for the system to suddenly gain momentum, it only takes a drought of good games hitting the 360. PS3 sales have picked up and it seems the Sony brand has finally reestablished itself.

I do think it's recent success has a great deal to do with Blu-ray, but with that said, there are games on both systems I'm looking forward to. I wouldn't give the edge to either really.

[jeffbax]

I don't think its a 360 game drought, rather Sony's drought is over and doesn't have a RROD. Similarly their online is slowly but surely coming together along with a friendlier price point.

Both systems have plenty of great games coming, both exclusive and multiplatform. Nobody owning either is going to be sad. Except for when the RROD hits when you're trying to play Fable 2...

[GrinR]

PS3 sales have picked up and it seems the Sony brand has finally reestablished itself.

As #1 in consumer electronics, yes I'd agree. Sony won big with the Bluray victory.

The Playstation brand has taken a crippling blow, however. We'll see if their long-term strategies will work, but there's no doubt the PS3 has been a colossal failure as a gaming platform.

[karak]

But the biggest issue is that the 360 needs to drop in price. The developers love it hands down and they sell through incredible numbers but a price drop is now needed.

Also this is all taking into account if MS does nothing...nothing else at all and just rides the wave forever. Which they are obviously not doing...so that causes me to question if it's peaked.

[51|RandoM]

My own thoughts: I find it interesting it doesn't take a sudden rush of great games to the PS3 for the system to suddenly gain momentum, it only takes a drought of good games hitting the 360. PS3 sales have picked up and it seems the Sony brand has finally reestablished itself.

The PS3's recent advances have little to do with the 360 and much to do with the BD win.

Live integration across all titles, including gamerscore and achievements is what gives the 360 the excellent tie ratio it has, IMHO. If Sony a) manages to make that technically possible on ps3, and b) mandates it for all games they too will see a significant boost in tie ratio over time. I don't think that will happen, though. Sure, they will probably achieve a, but they won't implement b.

Now, all that said, software is the double-edge sword of the 360, particularly given its problematic hardware history. When it has plenty of great games coming out it does great. As soon as they hit a drought they suffer, though, more than the PS3 would(is), and far more than the Wii would(is).

Oh, and to answer the original question, I would say that this past holiday season is the best one the 360 will ever have. Whether or not that can be considered as "having peaked" is a matter of opinion.

[Telefrog]

My own thoughts: I find it interesting it doesn't take a sudden rush of great games to the PS3 for the system to suddenly gain momentum, it only takes a drought of good games hitting the 360. PS3 sales have picked up and it seems the Sony brand has finally reestablished itself.

I think it has more to do with the now uncontested win for Blu-ray. Really neither system has much out right now, although things do look brighter for both consoles soon.

[Wolvie]

Saying the 360 peaked out now is like Saying the PS2 peaked after GTAIII came out. Presumptuous and silly.

[Klunka]

I'm not sure anyone really believed that the PS3 was going to die out anytime this generation. Sony has too much riding on it. However, if 3-4 years from now it's still neck and neck with the 360 (and likely far behind the Wii) doesn't that come off as a loss for Sony? Even if it sells 1 million more PS3s than 360s, this is still a large momentum swinger in the years to come for the gaming industry.

[Hagetaka]

A 360 gaming drought? I am looking forward to more games now, than during the holidays.

Ninja Gaiden 2
Fable 2
Too Human
Army of Two
Lost Odyssey (Still havent gotten that yet, though it's already out)
Lego Batman
GTA IV
Devil May Cry 4 (Still need to get that too..)
Rainbow Six Vegas II (barring a bad review from a friend)

There are a couple others, but can't seem to belt them out. Early morning, I guess. As has already been said, it likely has much more to do with Bluray.

[asimonk]

The 360 seems stuck in a holding pattern more than anything, stuck in neutral. A price drop/major announcement could send it forward; hubris will kill it.

The PS3 has BR to thank for a lot, but they are finally getting a more rounded library of games. I'm not sure its quite there yet, but the potential is certainly there.

[RorschachCCCLX]

Need to post my regrets about the formatting and lack of proper qouting of getting this up, I left my signature up , I didn't qoute right, and it was generaly slipshod.

I'm rushing out for work and I wanted this up so I could read what you awesome folks here at EA thought, my appologies for not following the guidelines.

carry on.

[Deadend]

Nah, 360 has yet to peak. It is the defacto console when anyone in my age group talks about games..

[MrWonderstuff]

Currently the 360 is the more established platform with a great library of games...however, with the release schedule for the PS3 looking healthy this year, MS will have a battle on its hands. It needs to keep the quality exclusive titles coming if its to hang on to its position. However, with so many titles being cross platform it really doesnt matter which platform you own, you are going to be happy either way (even happier if you have both, and why not,loyalty just limits your horizons).

[asimonk]

Actually, given a moment of thought, I think its impossible to say the 360 has peaked. It's just back down to a regular console span. In the time between the launch of Halo 3 and the holiday buying season ending, the 360 put out marquis titles and sales that if a console had over its life time, would be the high points. Gamers got an overload basically. Returning to a normal release cycle doesn't mean the end is near.

[violentp]

I think a lot has to do with their 2008 lineup. Gears of War 2 is the only 360 game that is appealing to me now.

I agree completely. The only other thing holding me at the moment is Lost Odyssey and hopefully some unannounced Xbox Originals.

[Zander]

Everyone got spoiled by the 360's fall/winter lineup. Now that things are settling back down to a normal pace plenty of pundits will knee-jerk. Sounds about right.

[Flatpicker]

I wouldn't say that they peaked, but, Sony is having a better 08 so far.
The BR win is putting Sony in a better light with the media.

[The Ligand]

An idea for making this thread harmonious (in case it starts to get rancorous): Avoid ad hominem attacks. In other words, feel free to disagree with the things that other people write, but don't attack the people themselves. That way, we can have a meaningful discussion without people getting pissed :)

EDIT: This is not to say that the thread so far has been bad.

[Wolvie]

Yeah I do agree that a price drop isn't really an option now, it's mandatory. If MS wants to curb Sony's momentum, they need to take away the "hey if I pay $50 more, I get a Blu-Ray player!" thoughts consumers have at this point.

And yes thats comparing the 40 gig PS3 to the 20 gig 360.

[Gorvi]

I doubt it's "peaked", but most of the games that were being released as 360 exclusives because of the lack any real competition will now be multiplatform. The onus is on Microsoft to show a truly compelling list of exclusives to disprove articles like this.

[violentp]

An idea for making this thread harmonious (in case it starts to get rancorous): Avoid ad hominem attacks. In other words, feel free to disagree with the things that other people write, but don't attack the people themselves. That way, we can have a meaningful discussion without people getting pissed :)

While I respect and agree with what you say, I do visualize it as a person in the middle of a fight telling everyone to stop. That such fighting isn't necessary. That we're all on the same boat and our one enemy has us pitted against each other. That we should unite and see where our best interests truly lie.

Just before a flying brick cracks him in the head.

[scythe]

...there's no doubt the PS3 has been a colossal failure as a gaming platform.

So not being as successful as the PS2 makes the PS3 a "colossal failure?" I think you're being a bit dramatic.

[bapenguin]

I'll be interested to see what Halo: Chronicles and Halo: Wars does. Do they bring in more of the Halo fanbase? I'm not sure.

To say Blu-Ray has anything to do with the PS3 success right now I think is really premature. I think both consoles have past the early adopter/big spender phase. Basically, anyone that would actually care about Blu-Ray, HD Content, etc has either console or both.

Now the sales are going to the mainstream consumer, one that doesn't necessarily care or know about those technologies. It's all about the games first right now.

I think right now Sony is doing much better at Marketing. Their latest commercial campaign was top notch and it's paying dividends. The whole article though is pretty funny, finally after a year + the PS3 outsells the 360 for 1 month and it's all doom and gloom.

Does anyone remember last Generation? The Xbox was SPANKED. Month in and month out the PS2 really handed it to them. It wasn't even a contest...and now look. This is a good thing.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Currently the 360 is the more established platform with a great library of games...however, with the release schedule for the PS3 looking healthy this year, MS will have a battle on its hands. It needs to keep the quality exclusive titles coming if its to hang on to its position. However, with so many titles being cross platform it really doesnt matter which platform you own, you are going to be happy either way (even happier if you have both, and why not,loyalty just limits your horizons).

The release list for the PS3 looked pretty great last year, as well - at least, at the start of the year.

Microsoft benefitted a lot from having their games come out on time last year.

[Evil Avatar]

I don't think its a 360 game drought, rather Sony's drought is over and doesn't have a RROD.


Sony's drought is over? When did that happen. I just purchased 3 games for my Xbox 360... I'm still not seeing anything on the shelves to buy for the PS3.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Sony's drought is over? When did that happen. I just purchased 3 games for my Xbox 360... I'm still not seeing anything on the shelves to buy for the PS3.

But, you see - there's so many games coming out for the PS3 in the second half of the year that have GREAT POTENTIAL.

Just like there was in 2007.

edit: what really happened is the internet got bored of picking on the PS3.

[Itchyeyes]

While I respect and agree with what you say, I do visualize it as a person in the middle of a fight telling everyone to stop. That such fighting isn't necessary. That we're all on the same boat and our one enemy has us pitted against each other. That we should unite and see where our best interests truly lie.

Just before a flying brick cracks him in the head.
Or a giant shark leaps out of the water and swallows him whole :D
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/mnikkel55/181455__deepbluesea_l.jpg

[BabyJesus]

I love how Sony sells 20,000 more console in one month and all the sudden its all over for the 360.. The only big thing, which seems to have slowed down quite a bit, that takes away from the 360 is the RROD.. In everything else the 360 owns the PS3.

BR while important isn't then end all and be all, looking at the high def disc movie sales in general.

[The Ligand]

As #1 in consumer electronics, yes I'd agree. Sony won big with the Bluray victory.

The Playstation brand has taken a crippling blow, however. We'll see if their long-term strategies will work, but there's no doubt the PS3 has been a colossal failure as a gaming platform.

I would say that there is, in fact, some doubt that the ps3 has been a colossal failure as a gaming platform. You may have no doubt, but saying that there is no doubt implies that everyone agrees with what you are saying (which many likely don't).

[jeffbax]

Sony's drought is over? When did that happen. I just purchased 3 games for my Xbox 360... I'm still not seeing anything on the shelves to buy for the PS3.

And those three games were what?

[protocol_image]

An idea for making this thread harmonious (in case it starts to get rancorous): Avoid ad hominem attacks. In other words, feel free to disagree with the things that other people write, but don't attack the people themselves. That way, we can have a meaningful discussion without people getting pissed :)

EDIT: This is not to say that the thread so far has been bad.

would be nice, but mostly a pipe dream

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/cotif/pipe_o_rama.jpg

[Murtaug]

I'll be interested to see what Halo: Chronicles and Halo: Wars does.

Emphasis mine, and; what? When was this announced? I never heard of such a thing before.

As to the 360 having peaked. No, it may have slowed for a time here, but the system certainly has a lot more life than what.. two years?

And where is this gaming drought? Ignoring the past summer, which was not loaded with releases, but had plenty of good ones. The fall was packed to the point I had to stop myself from buying everything before I went broke. Sure it has slowed down in the past couple of months, but it does this every year regardless of what system you are talking about.

And the past few months have not exactly been dry, Burnout, Devil May Cry 4, Lost Odyssey and I am sure plenty of others I am just blanking out on right now. Sure several of those are multi-platform, but what exactly have the other two systems brought in the past couple of months that are exclusives? Yes, I am sure there are a couple to mention.

The next few months have a ton of big releases coming as well. The 360 certainly has not peaked. The PS3 might pass it, who knows? And good, it might mean there will finally be enough games coming to it to get my interest up enough to buy one.

Blah, I'm done.

[Gorvi]

And those three games were what?
I'm guessing 2 out of the 3 are multiplatform.

[The Ligand]

While I respect and agree with what you say, I do visualize it as a person in the middle of a fight telling everyone to stop. That such fighting isn't necessary. That we're all on the same boat and our one enemy has us pitted against each other. That we should unite and see where our best interests truly lie.

Just before a flying brick cracks him in the head.

That sounds like something that would be in the middle of an episode of Red vs. Blue.

My thought was that someone would immediately respond to my post by saying something like, "Fuck you, asshole! You don't know shit!" :D

[Evil Avatar]

And those three games were what?

The Club (Multi)
Lost Odyssey (360 Exclusive)
Frontlines: Fuel of War (360 & PC)

I understand that one of those is multi-platform, but you don't get achievements playing on the PS3, which makes the 360 version the only choice.

[bapenguin]

Emphasis mine, and; what? When was this announced? I never heard of such a thing before.

It's been unofficially announced. They even mention it in the article.

[Evil Avatar]

I'm guessing 2 out of the 3 are multiplatform.

Nope. Just one.

[Gorvi]

Nope. Just one.
Close enough. ;)
I understand that one of those is multi-platform, but you don't get achievements playing on the PS3, which makes the 360 version the only choice.
Something I will never understand.

EDIT: Wait, you bought Frontlines? Man, I hope the full game is better than that demo.....

[Murtaug]

It's been unofficially announced. They even mention it in the article.

See, I should probably start reading the articles before I post. But then again, where is the fun in that?

[violentp]

I understand that one of those is multi-platform, but you don't get achievements playing on the PS3, which makes the 360 version the only choice.

What about those of us that have big enough penises in real life that we don't need to overcompensate with something like little e-pats on the back?

[TheFlyingOrc]

What about those of us that have big enough penises in real life that we don't need to overcompensate with something like little e-pats on the back?
Achievements are a lot of fun. Gamerscore is pretty stupid, though.

[NightRain]

I think a lot has to do with their 2008 lineup. Gears of War 2 is the only 360 game that is appealing to me now.

Gears of War 2 isn't the only Xbox 360 game worth looking into this year.

These are some others I'm eagerly awaiting, I'm sure you'll find some of them appealing.

Fable 2
Ninja Gaiden 2
Splinter Cell Conviction
Spectral Force 3
Supreme Commander
Too Human
Left 4 Dead
Halo Wars
Command & Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath
Age of Conan
World in Conflict
Mobile Ops: The One Year War
Huxley

and maybe Alan Wake


something in that list has to interest you, plus there are a ton of multiplatform games coming too.

[NationalKato]

This drought is temporary - obviously, after the glut of amazing titles we just ran through in the Fall, we have to have a reprieve. Honestly, I'm glad because I'm still finishing some of those games for the first or second playthrough.

The biggest hurdle Sony has in getting me to purchase a PS3 is price, exclusives, and backwards compatibility: I know it's a good deal already, but having already invested in the 360 and knowing that most of the games of 2008 I want to play will be on both platforms, there's no imperative to purchase a second console.

I know many people don't care about backwards compatibility, but if the PS3 included it on current SKUs, I'd be more apt to buy one as I missed a ton of the great PS2 games. I'm not, however, willing to pay eBay prices for a console with BC. That's just the fact of it.

[asimonk]

What about those of us that have big enough penises in real life that we don't need to overcompensate with something like little e-pats on the back?

http://garfieldminusgarfield.tumblr.com/post/27158539

[Itchyeyes]

Gears of War 2 isn't the only Xbox 360 game worth looking into this year.

These are some others I'm eagerly awaiting, I'm sure you'll find some of them appealing.

Fable 2
Ninja Gaiden 2
Splinter Cell Conviction
Spectral Force 3
Supreme Commander
Too Human
Left 4 Dead
Halo Wars
Command & Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath
Age of Conan
World in Conflict
Mobile Ops: The One Year War
Huxley

and maybe Alan Wake


something in that list has to interest you, plus there are a ton of multiplatform games coming too.
Ooh, I love it when these threads devolve into people just posting lists of games. Quick somebody to a PS3 one :p

[violentp]

Achievements are a lot of fun. Gamerscore is pretty stupid, though.

Hardly a selling point in my opinion.

This is my take on multi-platform:

If the 360 performs better (i.e. framerate, better multiplayer), I'll get that version. If they are equal versions, I'll get the PS3 version because it won't die on me.

[NationalKato]

What about those of us that have big enough penises in real life that we don't need to overcompensate with something like little e-pats on the back?

What about the achievements that turn gameplay on its head, a la The Orange Box achievements? I mean, it's not just about the e-peen. How many people would go back and replay some games to beat the challenges if there was no rewarding reason to - how many people would attempt to carry the garden gnome through Episode 2 if someone hadn't included it in the game as a challenge with points?

Think outside the box, man.

[violentp]

http://garfieldminusgarfield.tumblr.com/post/27158539

That's damned funny dude.

[51|RandoM]

I understand that one of those is multi-platform, but you don't get achievements playing on the PS3, which makes the 360 version the only choice.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8231/360achoriggk5.jpg


I've gotten achievements in the last three PS3 games I've played. Maybe I was just imagining things.

[jeffbax]

Interesting choices Evil... I'm not so sure using Frontline or the Club is anything to brag about ;) The only real 360 release I've seen lately is Lost Odyssey

I will never understand the complaint about BC either... I would imagine the people who want it already have the older system which is 100% working. Considering the 360 can only play about 30% of my Xbox library, I'm confused why the PS3 gets hammered for it so much. There is a BC model that plays 85-90% of PS2 games.

But honestly, you're buying a system that makes the old games look sooo dated. I bought a 360 for 360 games, and will buy a PS3 for PS3 games. Its not like PS2's aren't still produced (unlike the Xbox).

If I had both systems... I don't think buying a multiplatform games on 360 would be the "only choice". If it was heavily multiplayer maybe for XBL (unless PS3 had dedicated servers), but otherwise I'd go with the system that won't leave me unable to play the game, and was quietest while it played.

[violentp]

What about the achievements that turn gameplay on its head, a la The Orange Box achievements? I mean, it's not just about the e-peen. How many people would go back and replay some games to beat the challenges if there was no rewarding reason to - how many people would attempt to carry the garden gnome through Episode 2 if someone hadn't included it in the game as a challenge with points?

Think outside the box, man.

I'm not questioning the enjoyment factor of achievements, only it's use as a selling point. I enjoy them but I don't think they make the game better. That's me though. Rules of the box.

[TheFlyingOrc]

What about the achievements that turn gameplay on its head, a la The Orange Box achievements? I mean, it's not just about the e-peen. How many people would go back and replay some games to beat the challenges if there was no rewarding reason to - how many people would attempt to carry the garden gnome through Episode 2 if someone hadn't included it in the game as a challenge with points?

Think outside the box, man.

That achievement sucked so bad but I'm proud to have it on my achievement list.

[Philonious]

The reason why these kinds of articles are popping up is because there really isn't all that much going on in gaming right now. Sony has us waiting for stuff to be released (though a MGS4 release date is nice) and Microsoft has us waiting for things to be announced (though making GoW2 official was nice) but on the whole there really isn't much else to do but speculate. Writing flamebait articles is a great way to increase site traffic when you really haven't got much else to offer... I mean WE'VE had this exact discussion on the boards before (probably several times).

Does anyone think things would look different if Sony had managed to keep GTAIV, Assassin's Creed and DMC4 exclusive to the PS3?

[NightRain]

Considering the 360 can only play about 30% of my Xbox library, I'm confused why the PS3 gets hammered for it so much. There is a BC model that plays 85-90% of PS2 games.


PS3 gets hammerd for backwards compatiblity so much becuase they trash talked Microsoft aobut not having 100% compatiblity in the Xbox 360. Microsoft has done nothing but improve backwards compatibility while Sony has actually reduced compatibility. At least that is why I hammer them.

Pretty much every game I care about for the Xbox works on my 360 now. Saying that only about 30% of yours work is odd, unless you have a terrible selection of games.

Which games exactly are you refering too, really the only one I have that can't be played in Chronicles of Riddick. What do you have that you can't play??

[jeffbax]

I think the most interesting quote of the Article is But think about the figures for a moment. If 1.5 million 360s were sold by the end of 2005, 10.4 million by the end of 2006, and 17.7 million by the end of 2007, then the Xbox 360 sold significantly fewer units in 2007 than it did in 2006. The bad news doesn’t stop there: 2007 saw its head start battered aside by the unstoppable Wii, with little chance of redress, and the PlayStation 3 reaching the 9.5 million unit mark worldwide. The only territory in which it outsold the PS3 was North America, and without the sales spike around Halo 3 things would have looked considerably worse.
So it will be interesting to see how it goes... if the PS3 will also sell less this year (some kind of gap between those who won't buy before a $199 point?) or what.

Selling less in 2007 (when it had Halo 3, Mass Effect, and BioShock) than 2006 (with Dead Rising and Gears?) is strange.

[Gorvi]

What do you have that you can't play??
Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath
Dues Ex: Invisible War
Gun Valkyrie
Otogi
Otogi 2

That's me, anyway.

[NightRain]

Does anyone think things would look different if Sony had managed to keep GTAIV, Assassin's Creed and DMC4 exclusive to the PS3?

If those games were PS3 exclusive things would most certainly look different. Although I'll still argue that Assassin's Creed and DMC4 are better on the 360 a a whole and it looks like the 360 will be that platform of choice for GTA IV too.

[NationalKato]

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8231/360achoriggk5.jpg



I didn't know the 360 was out when Rusty went on vacation to Wally World. ;)

[PrivateJohn]

Reason we see the 360 has "peaked" is because Microsoft made no announcement or whatsoever. (Gears of War 2 only for GDC??)
What we see in ps3 is potential only because 'great' announcement for ps3 platform just keep flooding the internet.

At this rate we're going, Microsoft is indeed losing momentum. Otherwise, Microsoft just need to make cool new announcement to reassure the gamers then it will be a close competition in 2008.

[TheFlyingOrc]

If those games were PS3 exclusive things would most certainly look different. Although I'll still argue that Assassin's Creed and DMC4 are better on the 360 a a whole and it looks like the 360 will be that platform of choice for GTA IV too.

Sony should have done everything in their power to keep GTA exclusive. GTA is the reason that they didn't just win last generation, they dominated.

[Evil Avatar]

Interesting choices Evil... I'm not so sure using Frontline or the Club is anything to brag about ;) The only real 360 release I've seen lately is Lost Odyssey



It really wasn't about bragging, since I already said in another thread that I didn't care for The Club, it was just the overall idea that when I walk into a store looking for a new game I'm finding new games for the 360 and I'm finding very few new games for the PS3 and most of what I'm finding is multiplatform stuff that I might as well play on the 360 to get the achievement.

Sony fans can parade out a list of "upcoming" titles all they want... there is a lot of time between now and August and I would like to have some games to play now, not promises of games that might come out in the fall if they don't get delayed.

I still say people should buy both, but as several people have said above... just because the 360 sold less units for two months -- during a time when Microsoft was limiting or not shipping systems at all -- it doesn't mean much about the momentum of the system.

[NightRain]

Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath
Dues Ex: Invisible War
Gun Valkyrie
Otogi
Otogi 2

That's me, anyway.

Thanks for the constructive input. I just realized I have two games I can't play now. Gun Valkyrie and Riddick. Although I still have a modded Xbox for a media center, that gets used much less since the 360 now has divx support. So I could play them on that if I wanted, I could see how not being able to play some of those games would be an issue.

I never cared much for Dues Ex: IW much to be honest though, and Oddworld wasn't a game I'd replay.

I haven't played Otogi games, are they good? What are they like?

[Roc Ingersol]

It peaked at $400 goddamm dollars. That's why 2007 was such a crap year for their hardware sales. A token price drop doesn't matter.

It's interesting comparing the 360, ps2 and wii sales graphs. The 360 started off selling like the ps2, then in 2007 started falling way off the ps2's second year pace. Whereas the Wii started off selling like the PS2 did, when the PS2 dropped under $300. Go figure.

There's a serious limit to the number of people willing to spend more than $300 on a console. If MS doesn't want to get unceremoniously dumped back to third they need to cut the price.

The only thing holding back the 360 right now is price. If MS doesn't get serious, then, yeah. The 360 peaked. MS seriously bungled their early lead by not being more aggressive with price.

[Gorvi]

Thanks for the constructive input. I just realized I have two games I can't play now. Gun Valkyrie and Riddick. Although I still have a modded Xbox for a media center, that gets used much less since the 360 now has divx support. So I could play them on that if I wanted, I could see how not being able to play some of those games would be an issue.

I never cared much for Dues Ex: IW much to be honest though, and Oddworld wasn't a game I'd replay.

I haven't played Otogi games, are they good? What are they like?
I try! I have Riddik too, but you'd mentioned that already. I haven't played Stanger or Deus Ex yet, I picked them up really cheap a few months ago. Otogi is different. You'd think it's crap because it's made by From Software, but they're actually pretty decent. Third person action games along the lines of a DMC, but slower.

My only problem is that my XBOX isn't hooked up anymore and I'd love to just sit back and play them on my big screen. I'll probably end up hooking it up again to a smaller tv, but it's just not the same.

EDIT: That, and the 360 controller is just soooooo much better than the original XBOX controller it's not even funny.

[netcraazzy]

I like my 360 alot but I am glad to see the PS3 remain as a viable alternative. I guess articles proclaiming such and such console has "peaked" or is "lagging" makes for good site traffic but the fact of the matter is that this gen has three strong competitiors and things are going to stay that way.

[PrivateJohn]

You will never know what the heck is happening inside Microsoft, especially the decision maker. When you thought they are dominating, they lost Bungie, Bioware & Bizzare Studios.

[NightRain]

Ooh, I love it when these threads devolve into people just posting lists of games. Quick somebody to a PS3 one :p

Okay I will,

Metal Gear Solid 4
Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds
Haze
Little Big Planet
Valkyria Chronicles
Tekken 6

And maybe Resistance 2 and Killzone 2, but since I didn't like the first two much I'll have to wait and see on these.

I didnt' mention Gran Turismo 5 becuase I doubt it'll release in 2008.

[TheFlyingOrc]

It peaked at $400 goddamm dollars. That's why 2007 was such a crap year for their hardware sales. A token price drop doesn't matter.

It's interesting comparing the 360, ps2 and wii sales graphs. The 360 started off selling like the ps2, then in 2007 started falling way off the ps2's second year pace. Whereas the Wii started off selling like the PS2 did, when the PS2 dropped under $300. Go figure.

There's a serious limit to the number of people willing to spend more than $300 on a console. If MS doesn't want to get unceremoniously dumped back to third they need to cut the price.

The only thing holding back the 360 right now is price. If MS doesn't get serious, then, yeah. The 360 peaked. MS seriously bungled their early lead by not being more aggressive with price.

I think someone in the Xbox division became desperate to hit "profitable" status.

[Drayven]

At this point I'd consider getting a PS3 for one reason... my noisy ass DVD drive on my xbox. I'm tempted to get one just to play some of the multi-platform games in peace. I don't think however the 360 has peaked at all. At least with the people I talk to those considering a console all lean towards the 360.

[DangerousDaze]

In terms of software the future is very exciting for all the platforms so how do you even define a peak in those terms? In terms of non-game innovation I think the future is brighter for the PS3 at this point in time but even that doesn't imply that the 360 has peaked.

This is just a reaction to the wave of positivity for the PS3 in '08 - just because the PS3 is beginning to do well doesn't mean that the 360 has to do badly.

[jeffbax]

PS3 gets hammerd for backwards compatiblity so much becuase they trash talked Microsoft aobut not having 100% compatiblity in the Xbox 360. Microsoft has done nothing but improve backwards compatibility while Sony has actually reduced compatibility. At least that is why I hammer them.

Pretty much every game I care about for the Xbox works on my 360 now. Saying that only about 30% of yours work is odd, unless you have a terrible selection of games.

Which games exactly are you refering too, really the only one I have that can't be played in Chronicles of Riddick. What do you have that you can't play??
I guess, but its got a higher rate of compatibility with a much larger library...

Also, I probably own many of the best games on Xbox... but ones that didn't work last time I tried was:

1) Beyond Good and Evil
2) Capcom vs SNK 2
3) Chronicles of Riddick
4) Gladius
5) Gunvalkyrie
6) Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes
7) Legacy of Kain: Defiance
8) Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
9) Metal Slug 4+5
10) Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath
11) Otogi
12) Otogi 2
13) King Kong
14) Prince of Persia: Warrior Within
15) Prince of Persia: Two Thrones
16) Project: Snowblind
17) Rallisport 2
18) Toejam and Earl 3
19) X-Men Legends 2
20) Top-Spin
21) TimeSplitters 2
22) Dues Ex: Invisible War
23) Hitman 2
24) TimeSplitters 3

25?) Morrowind GOTY - not listed

So closer to a 50% rate, but still missing a lot of solid titles. I don't really care though b/c the original Xbox runs them way better and has all my saves anyway. A lot of "compatible games" also run like balls on the 360...

[Demo_Boy]

The 360 seems stuck in a holding pattern more than anything, stuck in neutral. A price drop/major announcement could send it forward; hubris will kill it.

The PS3 has BR to thank for a lot, but they are finally getting a more rounded library of games. I'm not sure its quite there yet, but the potential is certainly there.

what he said big time.

[Philonious]

Whether or not they are losing momentum, Microsoft is currently losing the HYPE battle. They seem satisfied to sit back and not pimp their machine, it actually makes me miss Peter Moore. They've been pretty internet savvy so far, hopefully they'll cue into the negative buzz and step up.

[Johan]

I'll get back to you on this after I've had a chance to play all the kick ass titles I own, let alone pick up the ones still on my list, for my 360. :D

[GrinR]

So not being as successful as the PS2 makes the PS3 a "colossal failure?"

Nowhere near, and yes. PS2 has been outselling PS3 - that's serious failure.

[huntr]

Okay I will,

Metal Gear Solid 4
Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds
Haze
Little Big Planet
Valkyria Chronicles
Tekken 6

And maybe Resistance 2 and Killzone 2, but since I didn't like the first two much I'll have to wait and see on these.

I didnt' mention Gran Turismo 5 becuase I doubt it'll release in 2008.

GT5:P - april
Wipeout HD
Echochrome

[PrivateJohn]

Whether or not they are losing momentum, Microsoft is currently losing the HYPE battle. They seem satisfied to sit back and not pimp their machine, it actually makes me miss Peter Moore. They've been pretty internet savvy so far, hopefully they'll cue into the negative buzz and step up.
Exactly. Microsoft lack the iconic people after Peter Moore left. Now their marketing are pretty shitty and i want more announcement! Not XNA games where i am not a programmer.

[Zanzibar]

The 360 seems stuck in a holding pattern more than anything, stuck in neutral.

This coming off a ridiculously profitable Christmas season, oh, a mere THREE MONTHS AGO.

C'mon, guys, give them a break. They had some INCREDIBLE sellers, and was the system of choice for gamers everywhere during this last holiday season.

I expect a few announcements soon to remind everyone that the X360 is a kickass system.

[Siraris]

I think 360 has peaked to a point. This year definitely doesn't have the bang that last year did, and doesn't look like anything more will be announced until 2009.

I think it's peaked in terms of bringing in new buyers. I still think it has great games, and I still see 20 or so evavers online every night playing something or other, but I think in terms of people needing to go out and buy one, it hasn't. I don't even know if a price drop would do it. I think the 360 is priced fine, but it doesn't have the plethora of games that it needs to bring in new customers.

I'm looking forward to Too Human, to Gears 2 and SC Conviction, but I think the majority of these games are going to sell to people who own 360's already. Too Human is too niche, Gears had enough of a massive draw to pull in anyone that would buy Gears 2 already, and SC Conviction is a bit of a niche title as well.

It's odd to me, that Microsoft hasn't tried to take more of a lead. Sony came in with the PS1 being a no-name in terms of game development, and yet so many companies started putting out games on their console that it just steam rolled the competition. Microsoft totally had the chance to knock Sony out, and literally make it the Gamecube of this generation by swiping more exclusives, and using their 50 billion in cash to really put together an impressive first party offering. And yet here we are, the PS3 has sold over 10 million consoles, it has a pretty darn impressive lineup this year, and Microsoft is kind of just treading water.

I think that if they can put together a strong lineup of 5-10 games next year, they can really get back into the groove they had last year.

[Hexxagonal]

I'm looking at picking up a PS3 for Blu-ray and I know 3 other people right now who are doing the same. The only thing is is that we are ALL waiting for a price drop. The games that are out just aren't enough to push is in early. We'ld rather pick up Ratchet/Uncharted/Motorstorm/Resistance in a few months when it's cheaper as they aren't going anywhere.

That's the thing though I'm looking more forward to the 360's first party lineup/exclusives this year than the PS3s. If I was a fan of RPGs or Metal Gear that would be different I'm sure though.

[jeffbax]

Nowhere near, and yes. PS2 has been outselling PS3 - that's serious failure.

PS3 cost the same as 5 PS2's up until recently... and until recently the PS2 was also outselling the 360 month to month (and its still neck and neck now). Are you calling the 360 a failure too?

PS2 is cheap, and has tons of games... people are still going to buy it. Its got legs.

[DingBat]

So not being as successful as the PS2 makes the PS3 a "colossal failure?" I think you're being a bit dramatic.

I don't. Anytime you go from being dominant in an industry to being neck and neck, that's a problem.

Let's put it this way: do you honestly believe that execs at Sony are happy with the fact that they're still kind of playing catchup to the 360? Do you think, even if the PS3 eventually passes the 360 by a few percentage points, they're going to be happy?

Againt, I don't.

The next generation of consoles is going to be found on a virtually even playing field. Regardless of how you feel about the 360 or the PS3, Microsoft has done what it needed to do this generation.

I do agree that MS would be smart to do a price cut on the 360 soon, however.

[Whimbrel]

The article does not necessarily mention this, but isn't part of the issue with the sales rate of the 360 very closely tied to High Definition adoption rates in terms of displays and sound systems? I think that there is a larger issue when it comes to buying a game console that costs several hundred bucks aside from how is the game library and what does the controller feel like. Until recently, HD displays were several thousand dollars. Considering that the last generation was not tied to HD in any way and the PS2 played great for what hardware people had in their homes, I think PS3 and 360 are competing for a pretty small market. Add in the requirement for Broadband and it is just one more factor. Sure, you can play a 360 over composite, but I don't think that has anybody drooling with excitement. It is the same phenomenon that affected the commercial success of Crysis. Nobody gets excited to play new games with all of the features turned off.

[CooterTKE]

I read into the 360 as peaked due to the fact that the PS3 and say Wii came out giving people more options. Multiplatform games now keeps me from getting a 360 unless it drops to say $200 or I get it as a gift.

[huntr]

oh yeah let me get off some ranting about 360 and the services they want to provide coupled with their hard drive strategy.

It seems pretty messed up to the 360 consumer that not all systems have a hard drive and you can only buy a MS hard drive for the system. If theyre trying to add all these features/benefits to the system but make you dish out incredibly for a method of storage thats pretty unfair to gamers. DLC, XBLA, movies/shows are going to take alot of space, how much will it cost you to get storage for that?

People complain about the PS3 price, but part of it was that they made sure that all systems across the board have a hard drive and its upgradeable by the user without voiding warranty. You can also easily plug in a USB external. Does it get easier than that?

[NightRain]

I guess, but its got a higher rate of compatibility with a much larger library...

Also, I probably own many of the best games on Xbox... but ones that didn't work last time I tried was:

1) Beyond Good and Evil
2) Capcom vs SNK 2
3) Chronicles of Riddick
4) Gladius
5) Gunvalkyrie
6) Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes
7) Legacy of Kain: Defiance
8) Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
9) Metal Slug 4+5
10) Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath
11) Otogi
12) Otogi 2
13) King Kong
14) Prince of Persia: Warrior Within
15) Prince of Persia: Two Thrones
16) Project: Snowblind
17) Rallisport 2
18) Toejam and Earl 3
19) X-Men Legends 2
20) Top-Spin
21) TimeSplitters 2
22) Dues Ex: Invisible War
23) Hitman 2
24) TimeSplitters 3

25?) Morrowind GOTY - not listed

So closer to a 50% rate, but still missing a lot of solid titles. I don't really care though b/c the original Xbox runs them way better and has all my saves anyway. A lot of "compatible games" also run like balls on the 360...

That is a large list is good games. I've played many of them but no longer own them.

[PrivateJohn]

The next generation of consoles is going to be found on a virtually even playing field. Regardless of how you feel about the 360 or the PS3, Microsoft has done what it needed to do this generation.

I do agree that MS would be smart to do a price cut on the 360 soon, however.
That's true though, Microsoft has done what it needed to do this generation, better than expected if i must say so myself.
Just that sometimes, you thought they could've done better...

[Philonious]

I expect a few announcements soon to remind everyone that the X360 is a kickass system.

This is the exact point people are questioning. The faithful believe that by E3 the XBOX will be full swing, the Sony hopeful disagree.

As for the PS3 being a failure, that is a matter of perspective. Is it a failure relative to the PS2? Absolutely, and because it is a direct successor the comparison is valid. Is it dead in the water? Far from it.

[Gorvi]

I expect a few announcements soon to remind everyone that the X360 is a kickass system.
I seem to remember many fans of the 360 laughing at the PS3 when people would point to possible things that would come out in the future. Just saying.

[grognard66]

The gaming media (like all other media) suffer from the herd mentality. Now they are all running stories speculating that 360 has peaked and PS3 will reign supreme. An objective view of the facts shows that this console generation will be effectively over before PS3 ever even has a chance to be the dominant console.

MGS is being touted as the savior (like MotorStorm, Lair, Heavenly Sword before it) but each of the last two Metal Gear games saw diminishing sales and the last game eventually sold only 3.75 million copies with a PS2 install base of over 100 million units. Does anyone really think MGS4 will come anywhere near this with a fraction of the install base? I'm sure it will do relatively well but it's not going to make up the roughly 8 million install gap that exists.

By contrast, Gears of War sold 4.5 million copies with a much smaller 360 install base. Unless Epic completely drops the ball, look for Gears of War to put up Halo 3 type numbers and provide a decent spike in hardware sales. Despite this, the media's conventional wisdom is now that MS' game lineup this year is weaker??? Factor in GTAIV exclusive 360 content with the 360's larger install base and the situation looks even bleaker for PS3 to catch up and surpass 360 console sales.

[bapenguin]

Bottom line is it's time for a price drop. In a year that saw Sony's console drop over $100 the 360 only dropped (at most) $30. People react to those kind of numbers. If Microsoft throws out a $100 price drop this Spring...things will get interesting.

$199 Arcade
$249 Pro
$299 Elite

You heard it hear first. ;)

[Yeti2005]

I think 360 has peaked to a point. This year definitely doesn't have the bang that last year did, and doesn't look like anything more will be announced until 2009.


You honestly think MS isn't going to make ANY announcements until 2009? Really? MS will just show up to E3, Leipzig, and TGS and not announce anything. That's an interesting view point you have Siraris.

[grognard66]

Bottom line is it's time for a price drop. In a year that saw Sony's console drop over $100 the 360 only dropped (at most) $30. People react to those kind of numbers. If Microsoft throws out a $100 price drop this Spring...things will get interesting.

$199 Arcade
$249 Pro
$299 Elite

You heard it hear first. ;)

That would probably end any debate about who would win this gen, but I seriously doubt it's going to happen. My money's on a $50 price drop to coincide with the release of GTAIV.
MS was one of the few companies with the financial resources to even get into this console industry, but they are publicly owned. While they were willing to invest $4 Billion to become a viable player, the time has now come realize profits. I think that's why they've been so resistant to drop prices and have maintained the ridiculously priced accessories like they have. This could also explain why they've been so willing to let developers go, have not paid for exclusives after GTAIV, and reduced the developers percentage of sales on Arcade.
They have been profitable the past 2 quarters (which is 2 quarters before they planned), but I fear they may be penny wise and pound foolish in their obsession to realize a profit each and every quarter. It is a business, after all.

[asimonk]

I think it's peaked in terms of bringing in new buyers. I still think it has great games, and I still see 20 or so evavers online every night playing something or other, but I think in terms of people needing to go out and buy one, it hasn't. I don't even know if a price drop would do it. I think the 360 is priced fine, but it doesn't have the plethora of games that it needs to bring in new customers.

I had a very snarky reply to this along the lines of "if you are saying the 360 is lacking games you're completely batshit." But that was based on a cursory read through.

I think what you are getting at is that the 360 may be lacking any immediate future "must-have-console-moving" games? There is some merit to this; there is nothing Halo 3 sized in the future. That being said, between a solid, although far from the Fall 2007 goldmine of releases, upcoming line up and that very same back catalog of quality games creates a very appealing package. If anything, I'd say the stigma of the RRoD would make people hold off if they haven't already taken the plunge than would trying to say that there just aren't games.

The flipside is that a lot of the PS3 is still relying very heavily on the future gaming potential. MGS and GT will move consoles, but right now, its a much harder argument to make in terms of quality of library.

Hell, the release of Ninja Gaiden 2 will ensure MS makes a huge profit that quarter.

Solely off of controller sales.

So I guess, you're like, sorta batshit?

[Gorvi]

Bottom line is it's time for a price drop. In a year that saw Sony's console drop over $100 the 360 only dropped (at most) $30. People react to those kind of numbers. If Microsoft throws out a $100 price drop this Spring...things will get interesting.

$199 Arcade
$249 Pro
$299 Elite

You heard it hear first. ;)
I'd put money on the fact that if that happened, Sony would follow suit. They can't afford to have the price difference they had when they launched again.

[PrivateJohn]

Edge Asks If Microsoft Is Losing Their...Edge (http://kotaku.com/361906/edge-asks-if-microsoft-is-losing-theiredge)
Edge essentially states that with every major advantage Microsoft has gained, they've managed to shoot themselves in the foot.
I concur...

[jeffbax]

You're all missing that 360 sold less in 2007 than in 2006. This doesn't strike anyone?

[bapenguin]

You're all missing that 360 sold less in 2007 than in 2006. This doesn't strike anyone?

Don't see the big deal. 2007 saw the launch of 2 competing consoles. Thereby taking away potential customers. It's not even like it sold that much less.

[RMan]

I doubt it's "peaked", but most of the games that were being released as 360 exclusives because of the lack any real competition will now be multiplatform. The onus is on Microsoft to show a truly compelling list of exclusives to disprove articles like this.
In terms of sales, I doubt it'd make much difference. I think this is the mistake many hardcore gamers have and do make, thinking that the exclusives are the main thing that sells a system. Most games are, will, and will always be multi-platform, and that's what consumers see most of the time. MS is in a tough spot, they released early and are now paying for it, and their golden age is clearly over. Unless they somehow bought out half the game industry, or made a major change to the system and did some crazy marketing for it, the 360 will continue to be a great game system for hardcore gamers. The rest of the market, which is the bulk of it, will gravitate towards the Wii and the PS3, and most of that hardcore market will still own all three.

[Yeti2005]

You're all missing that 360 sold less in 2007 than in 2006. This doesn't strike anyone?

This doesn't strike me as odd at all. With the introduction of two new consoles I wouldn't expect the 360 to pull in the same numbers especially considering how ga-ga the mainstream went over the unstoppable juggernaut that is the Wii.

Edit: Dammit bapenguin beat me to it.

[grognard66]

You're all missing that 360 sold less in 2007 than in 2006. This doesn't strike anyone?

Not really. 360 didn't have any new consoles to compete with in 06. Of course it's going to sell at a slower rate with 2 other consoles to compete against. That's why 360 launched a year early.

The only significant fact is that PS3 didn't outsell the 360 last year. If it had, then MS would have cause for concern. The best Sony can hope for at this point is to come away with roughly a third of the market by the time MS and Nintendo launch their next consoles (thus forcing Sony's hand too). In any other industry a drop of market share of such proportions would be viewed as disastrous.

[buzzfunk]

What games for the PS3 are you talking about? Rush? Im so sick of this making a whole lot of noise of nothing...

The only reason most people pickup a ps3 is bluray. What games really? Look at the 360 Lib. I mean the amount of diverse games on it is staggering when compared to the ps3. I think sony needs another 2 years to catch up on the software....

fyi, i own both consoles and the ps3 is a plain bray player in my house for now...

[51|RandoM]

I'm not seeing where a price cut would really help Microsoft that much, other than convincing some of us to replace our units with falcons.

The reason I say this is because I don't think people are picking Wii or PS3 over the 360 on the basis of price. The Wii has its own thing going and if you want that it doesn't matter what the 360 or PS3 costs and if pricing was the most important factor nobody would be buying the PS3 in the first place. Another reason would be during this recent shortage, it seemed as though the top end models were very hard to find the lower end models were everywhere. People wanted the top end at top dollar, and weren't interested in the lower priced models.

Probably a massive oversimplification on my part.

The only thing Microsoft needs to do is bolster consumer confidence in their product, and in their continued production of titles for the 360.

[51|RandoM]

The only reason most people pickup a ps3 is bluray. What games really? Look at the 360 Lib. I mean the amount of diverse games on it is staggering when compared to the ps3. I think sony needs another 2 years to catch up on the software....


It is? I don't think you've really compared the libraries lately.

It isn't a matter of catching up to the total number of titles---as that isn't likely to happen, ever---it is a matter of reaching a critical mass of titles so that there is something for everybody, and an ongoing stream of those somethings.

After all, if having the most titles was the important bit none of us would own a 360 in the first place. ;)

[tonester]

This is what 2008 has looked like for me:

1) Sold my Wii. Essentially, the Wii is synonimous with Wii Sports. I'd say that %90 of the people that I know who bought a Wii did so after playing Wii Sports at my place and that is the only game they have. 3 months after buying it, they say it just sits there. The attach rate for Wii is low for a reason - and 3rd party developers ARE taking notice.

2) Bought an XBox Elite after looking for almost 2 months - it has been sold out everywhere since the holiday season. I've been having tons of fun with my 20 other friends who own a 360 ever since.

3) Now that BluRay has won, the PS3 is obviously the only real choice for a BluRay player and my wife and I have already agreed to pick one up this Xmas. I wanted HD-DVD to win (I still feel it was the WAAYY better format for consumers), but I'm glad the war is over and the only hardware that makes sense for a BRPlayer is the PS3 due to firmware upgrades (one of the things I hated about BR was the differently "versions" of their players).

The PS3 picked up steam because of BR and a lack of available systems for 360. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blind, imo.

I actually prefer the PS3 hardware to my 360:
1) BluRay player.
2) Non-proprietary hard drive.
3) Wi-Fi
4) Much lower failure rate
5) Quieter and cooler
6) Mouse/Keyboard support
7) External USB storage support
8) BR Discs for games

However, the games just aren't there and none of my friends own a PS3. Their online is shit. They keep promising all these awesome games, but what happens?

1) Heavenly sword?
2) Lair?
3) MGS4?
4) FF13?

Honestly - empty promises and early HD adoption is what has moved PS3 systems at all until recently.

Has the 360 peaked? Get real. Its like - you make 500k a year in salary (which is awesome), but then you win a 120 million dollar lottery and then a couple months later, you are upset about making 500k a year? The 360 just had one of the best holiday seasons in the history of gaming and now they have peaked? I couldn't even buy a system because it was sold out!

MS is fine. They still have the better game lineup this year, imo. I hate their proprietary hard drive shit, though. PS3 needs to get their online in order so they can force MS to make Live Gold free, too.

The PS3 WILL be a great system.... its just sad that it will take nearly 2 years for it to do so. And like someone else has already stated... MS has gobbled up more and more of Sony's market share each generation. In that regard, MS is already winning. In 2 generations, they have essentially put themselves on equal ground with the most dominant video game platform in the history of the world. There is nothing Sony fanbois can do to refute that.

[Baron Samedi]

Ahh, the hubris of the analyst...

[51|RandoM]

You forgot Uncharted.
You forgot Resistance.

...yet somehow you remembered Lair and Heavenly Sword.

Curious.

There are a bunch of people on this forum who find it impossible to consider the PS3 from the viewpoint of somebody who does not already own a 360. They're usually the same people who continually talk about how the PS3 has no games... when indeed it has lots of games.

[DeluxE]

We'll see what happens around E3 this year. Last year Microsoft only promoted games that were appearing in 2007 or early 2008. This makes a lot of sense, since annoucing Gears 2 right before the release of Halo 3 would only be counter-productive. But we all knew there would be a Gears 2, Ninja Gaiden 2, etc.

In 2008 Sony has several very high profile games in the pipe; games that have been announced as in-development for years. It seems likely that Sony may choose to do as Microsoft did last year: concentrate on the present and attempt to "own" 2008.

To my mind though, Sony's line-up this year just doesn't have the heft of Microsoft's last year... with the exception of Metal Gear I don't see any multi-million selling, AAA Sony exclusives. Unless Killzone really is the dog's balls that is.

Microsoft, on the other hand, needs to get people excited about the future of their console again. Even though quite a few of their exclusives this year look great, the vibe of the 360 being past it's prime needs to be laid to rest ASAP or else the system is in trouble.

Of course Nintendo is in a whole other catagory; the Twilight Zone really... No big up-coming 1st party games announced after Wii Fit, Smash Bros. and Mario Cart, the bigest 3rd party news recently is a port of RE0, (?!), and no one has any doubt that they will continue to dominate the industry.

[Hexxagonal]

Using a USB drive as a storage device is a terrible idea. It's much better to open it up and install a new hard drive. USB throughput even at USB2.0 is SLOW.

[RMan]

It's odd to me, that Microsoft hasn't tried to take more of a lead. Sony came in with the PS1 being a no-name in terms of game development, and yet so many companies started putting out games on their console that it just steam rolled the competition. Microsoft totally had the chance to knock Sony out, and literally make it the Gamecube of this generation by swiping more exclusives, and using their 50 billion in cash to really put together an impressive first party offering. And yet here we are, the PS3 has sold over 10 million consoles, it has a pretty darn impressive lineup this year, and Microsoft is kind of just treading water.
I don't think MS had nearly the opportunity Sony did with the PS1. The PS1's quick rise to dominance had much more to do with Nintendo dropping the ball than Sony running particularly well with it. MS never had an opening like the N64 created, and has had to go head to head with Sony systems with no significant weakness.

[bapenguin]

I'm not seeing where a price cut would really help Microsoft that much, other than convincing some of us to replace our units with falcons.

The reason I say this is because I don't think people are picking Wii or PS3 over the 360 on the basis of price. The Wii has its own thing going and if you want that it doesn't matter what the 360 or PS3 costs and if pricing was the most important factor nobody would be buying the PS3 in the first place. Another reason would be during this recent shortage, it seemed as though the top end models were very hard to find the lower end models were everywhere. People wanted the top end at top dollar, and weren't interested in the lower priced models.

Probably a massive oversimplification on my part.

The only thing Microsoft needs to do is bolster consumer confidence in their product, and in their continued production of titles for the 360.

There's a whole other market that isn't picking up any of the consoles because it's above the magic $199 price point. It's not so much about who's buying the competition as it is who's simply not buying.

[tonester]

All my movies, MP3s, and digital photos work flawlessly through USB2.0 - even those with HD bitrates.

And did you really mention Uncharted? haha - yes, that is a fantastic game.... if you forget about the horrible combat and take into account its coming from a system which has relatively no competition for "exclusive great games".

Resistence was good... I'll give you that. Its a good thing it was the first game out on the system.

[grognard66]

You forgot Uncharted.
You forgot Resistance.

...yet somehow you remembered Lair and Heavenly Sword.

Curious.

There are a bunch of people on this forum who find it impossible to consider the PS3 from the viewpoint of somebody who does not already own a 360. They're usually the same people who continually talk about how the PS3 has no games... when indeed it has lots of games.

I own all three systems. I think Uncharted was an outstanding game. Resistance was good for a launch game, but not in the same category as Uncharted. PS3 has gradually built up an acceptable game library.

However, the problem they have is with perception. Walk into any Best Buy and the game section for 360 is literally four times as large (or more) as that of PS3. That sends a message to potential consumers that there's a better chance the 360 will have games of their liking.

While it's true that the stereotypical fanboy mantra of "PS3 has no games" is not true, it is equally untrue that 360 is "a shooter/Halo box". The 360 has the largest, broadest and highest quality game lineup available without question. There are actually more RPG's (and even J-RPG's) on 360 than PS3. It's all about the games...

[tonester]

Man - the whole 2 people that I know who own a PS3 personally.... don't play it. They watch movies on it. But, they bought it to play games. They are hugely disappointed. I won't even cite the countless people on the internet who say the same thing since I don't know them personally.

The facts are the facts - the PS3 isn't a good system for people who like videogames..... YET. It will be. When it is, I'm sure I'll pick one up. I almost picked one up instead of the XBox but that was merely for BR. The pressure of my 20 friends or so on XBL convinced me to get an XBox and play games with them every night.

[jeffbax]

Don't see the big deal. 2007 saw the launch of 2 competing consoles. Thereby taking away potential customers. It's not even like it sold that much less.

It sold 3 million less, thats like 30% less. How is that not a significant figure?

PS2 didn't sell less than the year before when Xbox and GameCube hit.

Year 1 - PS2 sold 8 million
Year 2 - PS2 sold 14 million
Year 3 - PS2 sold 18 million
Year 4 - PS2 sold 22 million

:confused:

[DarkDaY]

Now I love my 360, and all the games, so far its my fav system ever and I have been playing everything since the 1980, well, that I can remember.
But every generation I buy one, then wait and see and eventually buy the other and get stoked all over again.
This time I started with the 360 and it has held me off of the ps3 for longer than I thought it would.

The ps3 as of now has not givin me a reason to be a must have

BUT.... the great thing about it, and all tech as that months pass, ya get used to your current tech and want the other, or something new, regardless if it is doing everything its supposed to be doing.

I like the way this gen is panning out. Im excited to get my ps3, I know its built on what ifs a lot, but there ARE games coming out, some we know about, some we dont, and I would be an liar if I said I was secretly excited for what it has in store in the future, as I am for the 360.

But new toys are just fucking fun, and my next new one is the ps3, I love unpacking new
tech and getting to know it.

I like to get something new each year, and it could be worse than my next console purchace being the ps3, its a nice piece of tech and hardware, its shinny, powerful, *ugly* in a good way, and shit, to me it will be new.

360 will kick ass, and continue to do so, and the ps3 is picking up steam and thankgod, as we dont want ms to run away this gen with a massive win.

we want neck and neck people, you all know why

[PsychoticVile]

You forgot Uncharted.
You forgot Resistance.

...yet somehow you remembered Lair and Heavenly Sword.

Curious.

There are a bunch of people on this forum who find it impossible to consider the PS3 from the viewpoint of somebody who does not already own a 360. They're usually the same people who continually talk about how the PS3 has no games... when indeed it has lots of games.

I actually own both systems I have played Uncharted, Asssassins Creed and Motorstorm on my PS3 so far Uncharted and Assassins Creed were great Motorstorm sucks especially compared to the other racers available on the 360. I haven't played Resistance but from what I have scene it doesn't look any better than any of the 360 exclusive FPS.

PS3 online is crap Live makes it so much easier to just jump in and play. Every game that is available on both systems plays and looks better on the 360. The PS3 has games it's just the 360 has pretty much the same games and they are better. There is a reason the PS3 attach rate is like 3 to 1 and the 360 is 7 to 1.

If you really think the 360 has peaked you really haven't looked at what they have coming this year. These are all 2008 360 exclusives Fable 2, Gears 2, Too Human, Alan Wake, Halo Wars, Splinter Cell, exclusive GTA4 content, Left 4 Dead and many more I can't remember or they haven't been announced yet.

[Variable Gear]

Yes, yes the 360 has peaked.
...For the time being

[Itchyeyes]

You forgot Uncharted.
You forgot Resistance.

...yet somehow you remembered Lair and Heavenly Sword.

Curious.

There are a bunch of people on this forum who find it impossible to consider the PS3 from the viewpoint of somebody who does not already own a 360. They're usually the same people who continually talk about how the PS3 has no games... when indeed it has lots of games.
He didn't forget them, he was making a point. The point was that Sony has sold a lot of PS3's on empty promises, which they have. Weren't they showing PS3 ads with MGS4 like a year before it's proposed release date? He wasn't saying that Resistance and Uncharted were bad games or avoiding them, in fact he had quite a few good things to say about the PS3, they just aren't relevant to what he's talking about. That fact that they put out Uncharted last year doesn't void the fact that they've been selling systems on a game that is still 4 months away, or that they heavily hyped two severely lackluster games as reasons to buy the system.

[cool8man]

The only reason why PS3 is selling more than the Xbox 360, the Nintendo DS, and potentially Wii in the U.S. for the first two months of this year is because Nintendo and MS are having severe component/stock shortages while Sony has stock piles of PS3's that haven't yet sold.

Unfortunately we live in a world where perception equals reality so the armchair analysts on forums and blogs will declare that the PS3 has made a great comeback not questioning for a second why the PS3 is not just outselling the Xbox 360, but why it is outselling the Nintendo DS as well. If you think there is more demand right now for the PS3 than the DS then something is really wrong with you.

Microsoft does need to address a slew of problems with 360 however. The hardware needs a complete design revision, the red ring of death needs to be disassociated with the new hardware design, Xbox Live needs to become more stable, the DRM issue with Xbox Live content needs to be addressed, and Wi-Fi should be built into the new hardware. For a system that relies so much on it's online connectivity for it's success, to not have Wi-Fi built-in is extremely counterproductive. They need to get the Premium console under $300. The console has not dropped in price as quickly as it should have and they've been too slow at revising the internal architecture.

Overall the Xbox 360 software library is about as strong as you could hope for. I think they have a much better lineup for 2008 than they had for 2007.

Splinter Cell Conviction
Halo Wars
Gears of War 2
Fable 2
Ninja Gaiden 2
Too Human
BK 3
APB
+
Resident Evil 5
GTA IV
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
Fallout 3
Prototype
Soul Calibur 4
Tom Clancy EndWar
Mercenaries 2
Brothers In Arms: Hells Highway
Alone in the Dark
Left 4 Dead

People who think that the 2008 lineup isn't better than 2007 are the type of people who forget that there was little to no anticipation for games like BioShock and Portal until all of the glowing reviews came out. These people will only realize that 2008 is superior to 2007 when the 2008 reviews come out.

[Guy Mariano]

Software sales haven't peaked. It's an attach rate machine but the hardware sales are troubling. How can you have the most good games and lower your price yet sell just about the same amount of consoles worldwide in 2007 as in 2006. It makes no sense. Sales SHOULD have rose alot but did not.

[51|RandoM]

There's a whole other market that isn't picking up any of the consoles because it's above the magic $199 price point. It's not so much about who's buying the competition as it is who's simply not buying.

Oh, I agree with that, but I think you're smoking something if you expect to see the equivalent of a 360 Premium/Elite at a $199 price point any time soon.

[PrivateJohn]

Oh, I agree with that, but I think you're smoking something if you expect to see the equivalent of a 360 Premium/Elite at a $199 price point any time soon.
That will happen when MS is losing alot of sales, just like how MS price Xbox 1 when obviously the hardware is FAR superior than ps2.

Now ps3 & xb360 hardware are identical (some might argue ps3 has blu-ray bla bla bla) yet Sony keep dropping its price because they have alot of catching up to do.
Anyway, it seems that they are indeed catching up though.

[cool8man]

Software sales haven't peaked. It's an attach rate machine but the hardware sales are troubling. How can you have the most good games and lower your price yet sell just about the same amount of consoles worldwide in 2007 as in 2006. It makes no sense. Sales SHOULD have rose alot but did not.
Sales did rise. They overshipped in 2006 and undershipped in 2007.

Like I said perception equals reality again. If you ship more consoles that means you must have sold more, right?

Microsoft has been saying it over and over again but nobody seems to listen to them. They did not manufacture enough consoles for the holiday demand. They did not prepare Xbox Live for the jump in subscribers. The empirical evidence is there, retailers all out of stock, Xbox Live running like dog crap, etc. Microsoft was seemingly unprepared for the Xbox 360 to have any sort of success towards the end of 2007. Poor planning.


Pre-price drop vs. Post-price drop sales:

US NPD Aug'06-Dec'06
2.3M consoles sold

US NPD Aug'07-Dec'07
3.2M consoles sold


And the "$50" price drop was pathetic. Not that they could have sold more consoles with what they manufactured, but the fact that it's almost 2.5 years after the console was released and it's only dropped $50 is pathetic. They've made it clear that they want to be profitable this year and one of the ways of doing that is by cutting back on hardware while keeping price drops modest.

[xcalibur]

Price dropping, library getting better, Blu-ray winning the HD war, Sony not shooting themselves in the foot on a daily basis with assinine comments.... all of these are helping the system pick up steam. In the end, I expect PS3 to rival or even surpass the 360. But even if it does, there is no arguing that this generation will be a "win" for the Xbox, considering the huge gap that existed between PS2 and Xbox in the last generation.


-X

[TeeCakes]

It's hard to argue against 360 being 'peaked' as of now. The facts appear to be on the side of MS's console already being pushed over the hill for this gen. Many of their new exclusives are sequels of first-gen 360 titles (Ninja Gaiden II and other high profilers being notable exceptions), and it's no longer the lead in multiplatform development (meaning 3rd parties will become more familiar with the rival's architecture for the rest of this gen).

Blu-ray's rise will also serve to associate the 360 and their support of HD-DVD with the thought of being "obsolete" (no matter how inaccurate that label is.)

But it's fun to watch cool8man and others offer up their emotional arguments to the contrary! Is it retailers out of stock, or retailers ordering less? I used to work at Target for years during high school. FYI, the electronics department will never order more consoles than it thinks it will sell in any given shipment week.

You should also ask yourself why MS would 'undership' a console they should have more confidence in (you should also ask yourself how many of their stock consoles have gone to 360 owners as a replacement for a malfunctioning unit). Regardless of the answer you come up with, the conclusion is that MS is losing steam, and this is hard to bounce back from in the presence of stiff competition (especially when your most successful days happened while running unopposed.)

Just food for thought.

[Johan]

It's hard to argue against 360 being 'peaked' as of now. The facts appear to be on the side of MS's console already being pushed over the hill for this gen.

http://www.virgilanti.com/journal/images/genius2.jpg

[TeeCakes]

Correction: it's hard to argue against 360 being 'peaked' without resorting to a lame cat image.

But please, continue your "rebuttal" with some Garfield classics!

[Johan]

Correction: it's hard to argue against 360 being 'peaked' without resorting to a lame cat image!

Cats are not lame. They're CATS!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa299/yupko/LolCatRenderer2.aspxtoptinfoilcatbottomhassomedumb storiestotellyousize20imagenamealum_cat.jpg

But please, continue your "rebuttal" with some Garfield classics!

Garfield is a wanker.

And I'm not rebutting. I'm too busy playing all the kick ass games in my 360 collection, and getting more all the time! :D

[51|RandoM]

That will happen when MS is losing alot of sales, just like how MS price Xbox 1 when obviously the hardware is FAR superior than ps2.


Microsoft has been "losing alot of sales" since the day the Wii and PS3 were released. Obviously more than that has to happen for them to make a significant price drop.

I don't think they will, though. They've got a good share of the market this time around and I think they'll go for profitability within that marketshare instead of trying to buy more at the cost of another year in the red. You can only placate your shareholders for so long, even when you are Microsoft.

[TeeCakes]

Cats are not lame. They're CATS!

Garfield is a wanker.

And I'm not rebutting. I'm too busy playing all the kick ass games in my 360 collection, and getting more all the time! :D

I'm sorry, but the horrific mug on that first cat will give me nightmares tonight. I'll sleep better pretending it's a kitty-retard!

As for your 360 library-- fair enough. I suppose saying that the 360 has 'peaked' doesn't really matter if you just want to play damn good games. They'll still be plenty more down the pipe for both consoles for the foreseeable future.

[bapenguin]

Oh, I agree with that, but I think you're smoking something if you expect to see the equivalent of a 360 Premium/Elite at a $199 price point any time soon.

That's what the arcade unit is for. So they can say in the ads - "Xbox 360 - Now starting at $199"

[Siraris]

You honestly think MS isn't going to make ANY announcements until 2009? Really? MS will just show up to E3, Leipzig, and TGS and not announce anything. That's an interesting view point you have Siraris.

Sorry, I misspoke. What I meant was, there won't be any more games announced coming out this year most likely. All the big stuff will be coming out in 2009.

[Siraris]

I don't think MS had nearly the opportunity Sony did with the PS1. The PS1's quick rise to dominance had much more to do with Nintendo dropping the ball than Sony running particularly well with it. MS never had an opening like the N64 created, and has had to go head to head with Sony systems with no significant weakness.

You don't think what the PS3 has gone through has been just as bad as what the N64 went through when it came out?

[Nimh]

The real sign is still in the software. PS3 sales may be picking up, but I'll bet that you won't see drastic software changes. People are picking up the PS3 as a BD player now. Games for MANY people I know are an afterthought with it. 360 software sales are still strong.

So who wins this time? If Sony sells more PS3s than 360s, but 360 game sales continue to beat the snot out of PS3 sales because people just wanted a BD player, who is winning?

The whole thing is a mess really in a sense. I was at Best Buy Tuesday night and a salesman got a couple (in about their mid 60s) to add a PS3 to their HD TV purchase (as a BD player). They had NO idea what a PlayStation was...

[oldjadedgamer]

The real sign is still in the software. PS3 sales may be picking up, but I'll bet that you won't see drastic software changes. People are picking up the PS3 as a BD player now. Games for MANY people I know are an afterthought with it. 360 software sales are still strong.

So who wins this time? If Sony sells more PS3s than 360s, but 360 game sales continue to beat the snot out of PS3 sales because people just wanted a BD player, who is winning?

The whole thing is a mess really in a sense. I was at Best Buy Tuesday night and a salesman got a couple (in about their mid 60s) to add a PS3 to their HD TV purchase (as a BD player). They had NO idea what a PlayStation was...

It all comes down to game sales, hardware numbers are meaningless. Unless game developers get a share from each unit sold, total unit sales mean nothing.

[Talon-]

You don't think what the PS3 has gone through has been just as bad as what the N64 went through when it came out?

Hmm...that's an interesting parallel. Being a N64 owner the first go around, there was a lot of crap in the first go around, but the major first party games were all there within a year.

Super Mario 64 was there at launch and was one of the best sellers of the year. Mario Kart 64, Star Fox 64, and GoldenEye all came out within a year, and we all know how well those games sold. Despite the absolute lackluster 3rd party support, those were 4 best selling games within a year. The next year they got Zelda.

We're almost a year and half separated from the PS3, and we've yet to see that fantastic 1st party strength that Sony touts. I'm not saying that the games aren't going to be there. Sony CEA has some good stuff to offer this year with Little Big Planet, inFamous, and Resistance 2. They've also got great 3rd party with MGS4 (which is going to be awesome and SELL well), Silent Hill V, and others I'm sure you could name.

I know you had Uncharted, but Resistance was bland. Ratchet & Clank is good times as well, but you've got to have more than that.

Regardless of what it will offer this year, you're going to have gone two years before your hefty hitters have come out. That's a lot to make for. It's also a big "F U" to those early adopters.

[Chainblast]

The question of the 360 peaking is not the same thing as the system going down. All it means is that right now Microsoft has done little to suggest 2008 is going to be better than 2007. That would qualify for a question on whether the 360 has hit its peak. Plain and simple.

We are only two months into 2008 and a lot can change. It would be foolish not to think Microsoft has a lot of announcements yet to issue. But as of today 2008 looks more exciting for the PS3 than the 360, whether or not the same perspective can be employed in July is another story.

Regardless I think the 360 will continue to do well, there is no real reason it cannot.

[mister_slim]

You're all missing that 360 sold less in 2007 than in 2006. This doesn't strike anyone?

That's because Microsoft overstuffed the retail channels at the end of 2006, in order to hit their financial targets. Many of those 2006 sales were actually purchased by consumers in 2007. Because of this many retailers stopped ordering further boxes until they cleared out their inventory and ordered more conservatively for the rest of the year. This in turn forced Microsoft to reduce their shipment guidance (twice I think) and I believe contributed to the end of their contract with Wistron to produce 360s. Now I kind of wonder if ending that relationship with Wistron is responsible for the recent shortages.

[Mal.Reynolds]

well thats i know most of the good titles and Exclusives thats came for the 360 in 07 were between August and December so when you think they are gonna announce anything ???

E3

[Frogleg Special]

Can Sony make advertisements about console stability and Blu-Ray?

It would certainly kill the X360 if Sony can make the advertisements. It will force MS to lower X360, then I can buy it in a lower price.

[mister_slim]

You don't think what the PS3 has gone through has been just as bad as what the N64 went through when it came out?

No, the N64 sold very well for the first year. Then sales slowed when Nintendo's software took it's own time trickling out and it became obvious how severely Nintendo had alienated third parties.

[mister_slim]

The three things MS needs to do to regain momentum:

1. RROD. The hardware needs to be as reliable as the competition. It seems like MS is making progress on this, and they may have even solved it, but there's no way to know. Which leads to the next step:

2. Perception of RROD. Microsoft needs to remove any worry from people's minds. Fixing the hardware is the first step. Convincing potential owners there's nothing to worry about is the hard part, especially since potential customers are generally networked to some degree with current owners, and a significant percentage of 360 owners have experienced problems. Replacement 360s need to be rock solid, even if that means writing off some potential refurbs. And just ship GigaFuzz a pallet of 360s. Technically, goal 2 could be achieved without step 1, but that hasn't been working out so far. Anyway, onward:

[mister_slim]

3. Drop the price. The market share and reduced manufacturing costs will cover any losses, which aren't likely to be significant anyway. The 360 and Live Marketplace are probably the most effective revenue generators of any console ever, but that's of no use unless they're in living rooms. This price drop will probably happen around GTAIV anyway, but Microsoft needs to be more aggressive.
Almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about.

[Zanzibar]

Price cut + GTA4 = X360 outselling PS3 handily for at least a couple months; perhaps more if the X360 exclusive content is all its cracked up to be.

Now, where the hell is the Netflix announcement???

[DarkDaY]

It's hard to argue against 360 being 'peaked' as of now. The facts appear to be on the side of MS's console already being pushed over the hill for this gen. Many of their new exclusives are sequels of first-gen 360 titles (Ninja Gaiden II and other high profilers being notable exceptions), and it's no longer the lead in multiplatform development (meaning 3rd parties will become more familiar with the rival's architecture for the rest of this gen).

Blu-ray's rise will also serve to associate the 360 and their support of HD-DVD with the thought of being "obsolete" (no matter how inaccurate that label is.)

But it's fun to watch cool8man and others offer up their emotional arguments to the contrary! Is it retailers out of stock, or retailers ordering less? I used to work at Target for years during high school. FYI, the electronics department will never order more consoles than it thinks it will sell in any given shipment week.

You should also ask yourself why MS would 'undership' a console they should have more confidence in (you should also ask yourself how many of their stock consoles have gone to 360 owners as a replacement for a malfunctioning unit). Regardless of the answer you come up with, the conclusion is that MS is losing steam, and this is hard to bounce back from in the presence of stiff competition (especially when your most successful days happened while running unopposed.)

Just food for thought.


man I love your posts, its like Mr magoo somehow found a way to type thoughts....upsidedown..on crack..


great stuff.

[bjornbarspingvinen]

Didn´t 360 have short stock around christmas?
The PS3 has gone from selling like crap to Ok/good.

It must be some internet hype machine/propaganda thing, because this "Sony comeback" is nowhere near as great as some make it out to be....

Yawn, SOny is third.

[51|RandoM]

Didn´t 360 have short stock around christmas?

No, plenty of stock around Christmas. Best holiday season the 360 will ever have. ;)

[Yeti2005]

Whether you think the 360 has peaked or not, the following is true.

MS gained a huge market share this generation.
Nintendo gained an even bigger market share.
Sony has lost a huge market share.

[Johan]

Whether you think the 360 has peaked or not, the following is true.

MS gained a huge market share this generation.
Nintendo gained an even bigger market share.
Sony has lost a huge market share.

That's the truth.

After reading the article, I think they're right. I think the 360 is at a dangerous juncture in terms of whether it continues to grow, or stagnates. The low-hanging fruit of the first year, when they were first to market and got the early adopters, is gone. Now, with the widely publicized problems with the RRoD, Live downtime, and even DRM...they have serious issues.

To be honest, I don't care if they screw it up. I'm reasonably happy with the games I currently have, and if things go south, I still have them to stare at on my shelf as I haven't got the energy to play games at night any more, it seems.

Exhausted. Life.

[KNOTE]

Oh gimme a break.

[Gorvi]

Oh gimme a break.
http://www.i-hate-computers.ca/hobbies/kitkat.JPG

[Johan]

Now THAT was funny. If there's any left over, I'm having lunch and some chocolate would be great.

Also, the word "wafer" always struck me as very funny. Wafer. Just sounds stupid somehow.

[KNOTE]

http://www.i-hate-computers.ca/hobbies/kitkat.JPG

Nice. Kit-kats rock. Have you guys tried the dark chocolate ones? :eek:

[RMan]

You don't think what the PS3 has gone through has been just as bad as what the N64 went through when it came out?
No, in terms of losing 3rd party publisher support, not even close. At the time, all systems but the N64 had just moved to CD distribution, and in terms of cost/risk the N64 was not even close to the others. The PS3 might get some complaints from developers about tools and such, but that doesn't translate into much cost, not even close to the tremendous difference between carts and CDs (that's just cost, capacity widens the gap even more).