Todd Hollenshead weighs in on next-gen development (again)

[Reanimated]

Game Informer Online (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200508/N05.0813.1950.27388.htm) has the interview, which contains plenty of Triple F (Fanboy Forum Fodder):

GI: The one thing that I kind of got out of it yesterday, and I kind of could be off base, but he seemed happier with Microsoft, and not too thrilled with Sony and the Cell technology. Do you think that’s accurate?

TH: I think that’s accurate. I’m not really one to put words in John’s mouth but what I do know is we’ve had 360 stuff for a while and it was relatively easy to bring our internal project onto 360. We just got the PS3 stuff recently and it was relatively more difficult to bring that up on the PS3. So John’s first impressions are, “360 great, PS3 – pain in my ass.” I think the more we work with it - I don’t know if John himself will be doing the primary PS3 work or not - but we’ll have to see about that stuff. Also, 360 is further along in their process as well. They have more final hardware, and they have better drivers, and the SDK has been more refined and revised.
Aaaaaannd... GO!

[Hellstorm]

Bring on the Revolution!

[makkura]

bring on the games

[51|RandoM]

I'd expect the ps3 to be significantly harder to program for, albeit worth it in the long run, if you figure things out.

This pretending they have equally good development tools... which probably is and will be far from the case.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Are you saying the tools won't be even or comparable? What are you basing this on?

(Not an attack, just a legitimate question)

[dojoteef]

I would guess the basis would be the previous generation. For example, the PS2 dev kit instructions came in Japanese. PS2 is also notorious for being difficult to program for. Hence the proliferation of middleware and game engine licensing that has occurred during this previous generation (something that was fairly uncommon before).

On the other hand, Xbox is extermely easy to program for. It's almost like programming on a PC.

And from what I've heard about Xbox360 and PS3 dev kits, they are both sticking to the same formulas as the previous generation.

[Dracula-X]

Seeing as Sony is employing an OpenGL/ES api for the PS3, it should be far easier to work with than the PS2 was. Multicore & Multiple threads, issues common to both platforms. At this late stage the 360 would have to be (I should hope) easier to deal with, and Sony has a while yet to refine things on the PS3 end.

[EGO]

Why are we listening to Tom Hollenshead (is that Hole in head?) weighing in on CONSOLES?!?!?!

ID's NEVER supported consoles and wouldn't know how to, if they tried (which they have)!

Who cares what id and a bunch of PC stagnet-genre holders say.

Seriously!

I'm no fan of the PS3 or XBOX 360. I'm just trying to figure out why we care about what a suit at ID has to say about anything.

okay... now... GO... :p

[Borys]

First: who cares? FPSes (read: id games) was, are and always will be best on PC.

Second: Reanimated, you never disappoint me :)

[Kelegacy]

First: who cares? FPSes (read: id games) was, are and always will be best on PC.

Second: Reanimated, you never disappoint me :)

Todd obviously enjoys cupping Microsoft's balls in his hands, massaging softly in circular motions.

[EL CABONG]

First: who cares? FPSes (read: id games) was, are and always will be best on PC.

Second: Reanimated, you never disappoint me :)
Why is their always atleast 1 PC snob on almost every topic?

[51|RandoM]

Why is their always atleast 1 PC snob on almost every topic?

call him what you will, but he is right. FPS are and always will be best on PC.

:-)

If there should come a day when FPS are just as good on console... well that day, we might as well call them PCs because they'll be doing the same thing.

[EL CABONG]

call him what you will, but he is right. FPS are and always will be best on PC.

:-)

If there should come a day when FPS are just as good on console... well that day, we might as well call them PCs because they'll be doing the same thing.
Ok why is their always 2 pc snobs ...

[bean19]

Why is their always atleast 1 PC snob on almost every topic?

Wait. . . isn't Borys an X-Box fanboy? ;)

Anyway, this all gels with stuff we already know. The X360 is further along so it has a better SDK (go figure) and the hardware is more firm (go figure) as it is already in production. PC games are easier to translate to the XBox (again, we knew this) and the X360 is easier than the multi-threaded PS3 to code for (again, we know).

I'm one of those, it's all about the games folks. I'll be happy to play awesome games on the X360 and the PS3, but I want them to fight each other like dogs for my affection.

I'll play the selfish primadonna to their coquetries, assured in my decision to avail myself of both their charms mutually.

[Kelegacy]

Ok why is their always 2 pc snobs ...

Make that 3. Besides the mouse/keyboard setup, FPSs excel on the PC and are usually merely mediocre on the consoles. Games like Halo are successful and popular, but most times it's because those people have never played the superior FPSs on PC, mainly because PC's cost so much (not really, only if you are an constant-upgrade geek) and consoles cost so little.

FPS on a controller? Pfffffft!

[Tennistoad]

/Thread jack.... Great to not be a lurker anymore welcome aboard...../ :)

resume war in 3..2...1..

Yeah when was the last great id console game anyways??

/wake me up when they put a good story in their game like Valve..

[Zeal]

I don't care what anyone says, the keyboard was not created for playing games.

[Reanimated]

I don't care what anyone says, the keyboard was not created for playing games.


bu bu but mouse and keyboard is teh greateststst!!!11





















for Power Point.

[Orphiuchus]

Sorry guys, the mouse and keyboard is simply better for fps games. Once they come up with a console controller which doesn't require auto-aim to work for fps games things may change, but now there is just no contest.

[Taco]

Ok why is their always 2 pc snobs ...

Well you know consoles only exist for those that can't afford PC's.

/didn't want to be left out.

[Taco]

I don't care what anyone says, the keyboard was not created for playing games.

And the wheel wasn't originally created for cars. Let the bad analogy comments commence.

[EL CABONG]

Well you know consoles only exist for those that can't afford PC's.

/didn't want to be left out.
I have a pretty good pc I just like consoles better for fps.

[Taco]

Does pain give you pleasure by chance?

[EL CABONG]

Does pain give you pleasure by chance?
R U coming on to me? I'm not really into the ruff stuff.



LOL

[Wonka]

1st of all I doubt that any of you has made as much of a contribution to the FPS genre as Carmack. So I have to laugh at your childish whining about how you didn't like the last couple games that ID made. You kids are HILARIOUS.

2nd of all all this stuff about FPS being better on consoles or PCs is just opinions. Now you are entitled to you opinions, but that doesn't make them into facts. It's all just a bunch of hot air. I just so happen to like playing FPS games on a console. I even prefer the controls (shocking to you PC guys I know). I really like the bigger screen, the better sound and the comfortable couch. I like being able to talk to my friends on every game that I play on LIVE! with no extra effort. AND, I also like the fact that people don't do triple backflips while shooting me in the head with a sniper rifle. If someone shoots you in the head on a console, odds are that they really EARNED that shot. I personally find that the mouse is unrealistically easy and allows for all manner of shenanigans that would not only never happen in real life, but are also just kind of silly. But hey, thats just MY opinion, my personal chance to makes some hot air of my own. I used to play on PCs, but not anymore. <shrugs>

As an aside, I have also known other "non-gamer" people who found the mouse and keyboard too difficult to learn, but who found the xbox controller to be more intuitive. So I am not even sure that there is really an argument to be made that PC controls are more intuitive. I myself learned on the PC, so I once found the PC controls to be very inutitive but I found that my personal experiences were initially misleading me on that point.

[Setzer_83]

I know people who can slaughter me at halo, but not get a frag in on
UT2k4. and visa versa. Controller versus keyboard and mouse is a never ending battle. I personally think that if the game is good enough to make you forget your using a controller or keyboard, who cares.

and back to the console dev. stuff. has the world forgotten the great nintendo. im more interested in the revolution than the ps3.
because i know the controller is going to be diffrent than the other consoles. and that there are going to be games more amazing than games on any other console. Graphics can only go so far. the gaming community is going backwards now. substituting fun game play for good graphics.

anyway those are my opinions.

[Kelegacy]

I don't care what anyone says, the keyboard was not created for playing games.

Maybe not, but damn, with a mouse combo, you can play almost any game flawlessly. The mouse is a much better tool for looking around than a thumbstick. For some games, anyway. FPSs especially.

[*Legion*]

Games like Halo are successful and popular, but most times it's because those people have never played the superior FPSs on PC

Amazing how many PC gamers still hold on to this stupid belief.

[Zeal]

Games like Halo are successful and popular, but most times it's because those people have never played the superior FPSs on PC

Funny, considering the original Halo is still superior to any PC FPS.

[Royal Fool]

AND, I also like the fact that people don't do triple backflips while shooting me in the head with a sniper rifle. If someone shoots you in the head on a console, odds are that they really EARNED that shot.
I don't really get the "triple backflip" part... how do they earn it more with a gamepad than a mouse/keyboard? Doesn't it really depend on the speed and pace of the game itself, how it's designed and how dealing damage works?

I personally find that the mouse is unrealistically easy and allows for all manner of shenanigans that would not only never happen in real life, but are also just kind of silly.
You must be talking about mouse sensitivity. Many console games actually have this too (Shocking to you console guys I know).

As for real life... I'd never be able to jump around carrying a multitude of weapons around and wearing full armor. Or pick up damage powerups and hop onto a hover vehicle while firing a burst of rockets. But that's me.

[Kelegacy]

Funny, considering the original Halo is still superior to any PC FPS.

I dont want to get into a Halo-sucks arguement, because I did enjoy the game, but c'mon. I played it on PC as well, and after the initial "hey, this is cool", I couldnt find much to differentiate it from other games in the genre. Was it the option to use vehicles? The sterile, redundant environments? I really dont know. Fun game, but no way superior than the upper echelon of PC gaming.

I'm really not a PC-elitist. I'm a realist. I was a console gamer since I was 3 or 4. I have been a PC gamer (and I really dont play many PC games these days) for maybe 5 or 6 years. Beleive me, I dont look down on console games and praise PC ones. But FPSs and RTSs really do excel on the PC. I cant believe there is even an arguement here.

[Reanimated]

Amazing how many PC gamers still hold on to this stupid belief.




It really is very stupid. I have a 6800 Ultra, 3.2Ghz P4 setup and I play a lot of PC shooters. I mean just looking at the games I've currently got installed on my machine, there are 7 shooters there.

I love many PC shooters, but I RARELY bother with multiplayer in any of them. I'd much rather play something on Xbox Live, so "precise" controls don't make or break a game for me. Overall, I really don't find PC shooters to be superior for just that reason. The other thing is, like someone already stated, PC controls can be WAY too precise to be even remotely realistic.

[Hijinx]

Well you know consoles only exist for those that can't afford PC's.

/didn't want to be left out.

Oh snap yo!

[Kelegacy]

It really is very stupid. I have a 6800 Ultra, 3.2Ghz P4 setup and I play a lot of PC shooters. I mean just looking at the games I've currently got installed on my machine, there are 7 shooters there.

I love many PC shooters, but I RARELY bother with multiplayer in any of them. I'd much rather play something on Xbox Live, so "precise" controls don't make or break a game for me. Overall, I really don't find PC shooters to be superior for just that reason. The other thing is, like someone already stated, PC controls can be WAY too precise to be even remotely realistic.

For precise, I think aiming a gun in real life is closer to a mouse/keyboard than a controller. That is, unless it's a drone gun that's controlled by a remote at a distance.

[EL CABONG]

For precise, I think aiming a gun in real life is closer to a mouse/keyboard than a controller. That is, unless it's a drone gun that's controlled by a remote at a distance.
neither is like real life.

There should be more light gun games. They are closer to real life than mice or gamepads,but thats getting even more off topic.

[Taco]

The other thing is, like someone already stated, PC controls can be WAY too precise to be even remotely realistic.

That's precious. So shitty control is a plus?

[Paranoia]

Games like Halo are successful and popular, but most times it's because those people have never played the superior FPSs on PC

That is an arrogant statement and to be honest an embarassing one coming from a PC gamer like you. Halo is successful cause people never played superior FPS?

If we followed by your analogy, Half-Life (PS2), Doom (PS1 & N64), Deus Ex (PS2), Duke Nukem 64 (N64) would have been a major hit on the console long before Halo, but why aren't they?

[Chris_D]

be superior for just that reason. The other thing is, like someone already stated, PC controls can be WAY too precise to be even remotely realistic.

Reminds me of the last lan I went to where 1 dude (who is presumably a bit of a hot shot on line but whatever) kept head shotting everyone else in CS Source, from the other side of the map with the default pistol. I suppose he's very agile with the mouse...

[Reanimated]

Reminds me of the last lan I went to where 1 dude (who is presumably a bit of a hot shot on line but whatever) kept head shotting everyone else in CS Source, from the other side of the map with the default pistol. I suppose he's very agile with the mouse...



lol, well apparently Kelegacy can do this in real life. :rolleyes:

[Mister Pie]

That is an arrogant statement and to be honest an embarassing one coming from a PC gamer like you. Halo is successful cause people never played superior FPS?

If we followed by your analogy, Half-Life (PS2), Doom (PS1 & N64), Deus Ex (PS2), Duke Nukem 64 (N64) would have been a major hit on the console long before Halo, but why aren't they?

And why wasn't Halo a hit on PC when it came out? Because it came out on xbox first, not to mention the fact that it wasn't exactly the smoothest port ever-- same as with the examples you cited (except, of course, that Doom, Deus Ex, went from PC to console).

I personally enjoy PC FPS games way more than I do my console FPS games. I played and own both Halo 1 and 2 and in the end, fun as they are, I keep wishing that I could play with keybaord and mouse and with higher resolution, just like I could on a PC. I just didn't "get it", but I recognize the fact that there are literally millions of people who enjoy the console FPS experience. That's their prerogative. On the other hand, there are millions of people who enjoy the PC FPS exeperience. That's our's.

[Paranoia]

And why wasn't Halo a hit on PC when it came out? Because it came out on xbox first, not to mention the fact that it wasn't exactly the smoothest port ever-- same as with the examples you cited (except, of course, that Doom, Deus Ex, went from PC to console).

I personally enjoy PC FPS games way more than I do my console FPS games. I played and own both Halo 1 and 2 and in the end, fun as they are, I keep wishing that I could play with keybaord and mouse and with higher resolution, just like I could on a PC. I just didn't "get it", but I recognize the fact that there are literally millions of people who enjoy the console FPS experience. That's their prerogative. On the other hand, there are millions of people who enjoy the PC FPS exeperience. That's our's.

My main point was the idea of Halo being big hit on console because "no console gamer played FPS" was just ridiculous.

Yes, Halo PC is not a huge hit as Quake, but it did sell well.

[riposte101]

Make that 3. Besides the mouse/keyboard setup, FPSs excel on the PC and are usually merely mediocre on the consoles. Games like Halo are successful and popular, but most times it's because those people have never played the superior FPSs on PC, mainly because PC's cost so much (not really, only if you are an constant-upgrade geek) and consoles cost so little.

FPS on a controller? Pfffffft!

It is just a matter of preference. I play on both my high end PC and my xbox. I am one of the people that prefer the controller to the mouse.

[riposte101]

The other problem with PCs are that there isn't a level playing ground for multiplayer games. Games perform very differently on every PC, while with a console FPS everybody is running the same hardware. Connection speeds might differ but that is the same on the PC. The level playing field is what makes me enjoy competitive games more through the fully featured xbox live than on the PC.

[H.Bogard]

ugh ...multi quote post!

I have a pretty good pc I just like consoles better for fps.


let me guess, RTS and MMORPGS?


Funny, considering the original Halo is still superior to any PC FPS.

now thats just fanboyism!

For precise, I think aiming a gun in real life is closer to a mouse/keyboard than a controller. That is, unless it's a drone gun that's controlled by a remote at a distance.

Exactly....Using an analog to target is like firing a missile from a jet!



The other problem with PCs are that there isn't a level playing ground for multiplayer games. Games perform very differently on every PC, while with a console FPS everybody is running the same hardware. Connection speeds might differ but that is the same on the PC.


1 million battlefield 2 players defy you.

[XxSATANxX]

Xbox 360 will have an FPS controller. VERY SIMILAR to the cyber Snipa?

and a mouse.

[dragonstomp]

Could it be that John doesn't like porting whatever he is working on to the unreal engine? HAR HAR

(referring to the sublicencing deal with sony and the unreal engine)

It's funny..I actually played doom 3 with a dual shock controller via a converter I got off ebay. I routed my pc's video to the tv and cranked up the surround...looked pretty damn nice actually.

[EL CABONG]

ugh ...multi quote post!
let me guess, RTS and MMORPGS?


No I don't care much for rts ,some mmorpgs,some fps Or I should say I use to but I just prefer playing with a gamepad so I haven't been playing much on pc lately.

[KNOTE]

Back to the topic, if you're interested what Carmack actually said, instead of Hollenshead's impression of what Carmack said, Gamespy has the big MMmmmmmMMmMMM C's speech summarized.