Kosovo declares independence

[[GH-SC]Ryctor]

Independence day (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080217/D8US597G0.html)

PRISTINA, Kosovo (AP) - Kosovo declared itself a nation on Sunday, mounting a historic bid to become an "independent and democratic state" backed by the U.S. and key European allies but bitterly contested by Serbia and Russia.

"Kosovo is a republic - an independent, democratic and sovereign state," parliament speaker Jakup Krasniqi said as the chamber burst into applause. Krasniqi, Prime Minister Hashim Thaci and President Fatmir Sejdiu signed the declaration, which was scripted on parchment.

Across the capital, Pristina, revelers danced in the streets, fired guns into the air and waved red and black Albanian flags in jubilation at the birth of the world's newest country.

Update - Russia is now threatening to use force (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/22/serbia.kosovo/index.html) to resolve this issue, should they "have to"

Also Friday, Russia -- which has not recognized Kosovo's sovereignty -- said it has not ruled out using force to resolve the dispute over the territory if NATO forces breach the terms of their U.N. mandate.

"If the EU works out a single position or if NATO steps beyond its mandate in Kosovo, these organizations will be in conflict with the U.N., and then I think we will also begin operating under the assumption that in order to be respected, one needs to use force," Moscow's ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin said, in comments carried by Russia's Interfax news agency.

Update No. 2 - US evacuates all nonessential embassy staff (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/22/us.serbia/index.html)

he U.S. Embassy in Belgrade is evacuating all nonessential personnel following Thursday's attack on the building by a crowd of protesters, a spokesman for the embassy told CNN Friday.

[boratika]

Seems like a good thing to me. They definately worked hard for it.

[[GH-SC]Ryctor]

Shits going to hit the fan in the region though. Hell it wasn't all rainbows and sunshine when I was over there in early 2001. I bet Bosnia does something retarded.

[boratika]

That part of the world isn't exactly a basket of laughs at the best of times. I'm hoping, since hostility will now be an issue of international war, that other countries will be willing to step in to help settle disputes, or least impose the threat of intervention and it work as a deterent. But, that's probably a bit optimistic of me.

So Kosovo's independant, Cyprus may be soon, Kurdistan is kinda getting there (but, you know, that's a discussion for another thread) and even French-Canada has something going on along these lines. Not many of these kept countries left...

[Johan]

It's one of several defining issues for this century, I believe:

1. Splintering of nations along ethnic/cultural/religious fault lines.
2. Dwindling environmental resources, such as potable water, and the degradation of the environment.
3. Mass migration of people due to war, famine, and other like issues.
4. Pandemic, and resurgent, diseases literally flying around the globe.
5. WMD proliferation (nuclear/radiological, chemical and biological weapons of destruction).
6. Failed states and all of the above as a result.

It's good to be alive. We get to witness so much...death, destruction, and insanity, all around the world! :(

[Schnoogs]

It's one of several defining issues for this century, I believe:

1. Splintering of nations along ethnic/cultural/religious fault lines.
2. Dwindling environmental resources, such as potable water, and the degradation of the environment.
3. Mass migration of people due to war, famine, and other like issues.
4. Pandemic, and resurgent, diseases literally flying around the globe.
5. WMD proliferation (nuclear/radiological, chemical and biological weapons of destruction).
6. Failed states and all of the above as a result.

It's good to be alive. We get to witness so much...death, destruction, and insanity, all around the world! :(


Yeah but we got teh internetz!

[Johan]

Yeah but we got teh internetz!

YES! :)

On topic, Kosovar independence would not have been possible without American assistance, support, and military defense.

Too bad we hate Muslims so much. :rolleyes:

[Sl1pstream]

Watching CNN right now. Russia doesn't seem to be happy about this.

[Schnoogs]

Watching CNN right now. Russia doesn't seem to be happy about this.

I think Russias stance on everything is that if the US supports something then they must stand against it.

[broodax]

Welcome, Kosovo! Glad to have you here. Oh, and thanks for ticking off the Russians; it puts a smile on my face when they get mad about stuff they screwed up in the first place.

[Skull3r]

What does Russia have to lose from Kosovo's independence?

[Deadend]

I think Russias stance on everything is that if the US supports something then they must stand against it.

Russia just wants fewer countries to have to conquer to take over the region. Also, they now have to add a new folder to the filing cabinets and draw a line on maps.

[digitalErich]

What does Russia have to lose from Kosovo's independence?
Face
message too short and all that.

[Siraris]

Russia isn't happy about anything lately. But why should they be? They are doing everything they can do hold onto their last semblance of being a world power.

The US definitely isn't helping by provoking Russia with the missile shield. And for those of you who don't know, they aren't worried about the US shooting down missiles, the issue is the US being able to shoot down satellites

[Heretic Machine]

Meh... Eastern European countries, here today, gone tomarrow, only to reappear ten years later.

I'm a Worthless Peon, and I'll always be a Worthless peon.
Bonus points for anyone who knows what I'm talkin' about.

Ted's a capella band from Scrubs. Where's mah bonus points?

[swiftdraw]

And for those of you who don't know, they aren't worried about the US shooting down missiles, the issue is the US being able to shoot down satellites

Riiiiight... We've been able to do that since at least the late 1970's and they've been able to also since roughly the same amount of time (along with most of Europe and now China.) Thats really a non-issue as they can do as effectively as the west. They're pissed about the missile shield because they believe it will tip the balance of power to the USA as it, if effective, might be able to circumvent MAD allowing the USA to strike Russia first and possible come out mostly intact.

The Russian military and government seems to still think in terms of the Cold War, as in East (them) vs. West (NATO countries) and plan policy accordingly. With oil and natural gas money starting to refill Russia's coffers, they're able to throw their weight around more effectively and we're seeing the results of that (like trying to claim the North Pole.)

Edit: Also, on topic, I'm glad I can still throw 'Balkanization' around and still be relevant :P

[CES]

It's good to be alive. We get to witness so much...death, destruction, and insanity, all around the world! :(

And thanks to modern technology you get to see it live and unedited, right in your living room. Perfect for when the afternoon news comes on when there's kids nearby (hardly easy explaining why the big bad men thousands of miles away just bombed a bus full of people).

[Johan]

And for those of you who don't know, they aren't worried about the US shooting down missiles, the issue is the US being able to shoot down satellites

It's so much nicer when it's just a communist nation with the ability to shoot down satellites. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/01/18/china.missile/index.html)

I just wish we didn't feel this unnecessary compulsion to have the ability to militarily match others whose interests often conflict with our own. Damn us!!! :rolleyes:

[Schnoogs]

the issue is the US being able to shoot down satellites

They've been able to disrupt satellites with lasers forever

[broodax]

Sadly, Heretic Machine, I don't have any points left, but I do have this +5 Flute of Theme Songs, if you'd like it.

Urm, back to the topic, yeah....

Kosovo does deserve their freedom, considering all that Serbia/the Serbs have done to them.

[Siraris]

Riiiiight... We've been able to do that since at least the late 1970's and they've been able to also since roughly the same amount of time (along with most of Europe and now China.) Thats really a non-issue as they can do as effectively as the west. They're pissed about the missile shield because they believe it will tip the balance of power to the USA as it, if effective, might be able to circumvent MAD allowing the USA to strike Russia first and possible come out mostly intact.

The Russian military and government seems to still think in terms of the Cold War, as in East (them) vs. West (NATO countries) and plan policy accordingly. With oil and natural gas money starting to refill Russia's coffers, they're able to throw their weight around more effectively and we're seeing the results of that (like trying to claim the North Pole.)

Edit: Also, on topic, I'm glad I can still throw 'Balkanization' around and still be relevant :P

Really, so why is this (http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080215/NATION/190574197/1001) one of the latest stories from the Washington Times?

I don't know where you get that they fear the missile shield being an offensive weapon of striking against Russia, but the fear stems from the fact that the US already owns space in terms of satellites, and the installation of the missile shield would cement their position in the "space war". I heard an expert on the subject speak for an hour last week, and he said this is exactly why Russia is reacting the way that it is to the subject.

Anyone who controls space, controls global communications as well as quite a bit of military power. Considering the vast majority of modern weapons are guided and controlled by satellites, if you were to be able to destroy other countries satellites, you would be able to essentially set them back 50 years in terms of technology.

The problem is, the US would be the biggest loser in the fight. We have something like 60% of the total satellites in orbit under our control, and so we have the most to lose (as well as the most to protect.

Why is Russia up in arms about shooting us shooting down the satellite in the next few weeks, claiming it's a test of our ability to shoot down other countries satellites?


"There is an impression that the United States is trying to use the accident with its satellite to test its national anti-missile defense system's capability to destroy other countries' satellites," the ministry said.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8URMG5G0&show_article=1

[Johan]

"There is an impression that the United States is trying to use the accident with its satellite to test its national anti-missile defense system's capability to destroy other countries' satellites," the ministry said.

That would indeed be evil. If another nation wants to launch a missile against us, or train a satellite on us to spy on us, we should NOT be able to defend against it.

I demand this defensive technology be stopped. Our government's priorities are out of whack; defending the populace against a North Korean missile or the like is right out! And who cares if the Chinese can do this? They surely would never do it, right? Right?

[swiftdraw]

Really, so why is this (http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080215/NATION/190574197/1001) one of the latest stories from the Washington Times?

*Yawn* We've been doing this for decades, so what? Washington Times probably posted it up on a slow news day. Considering to length and depth of the article I think this may be the case.

I don't know where you get that they fear the missile shield being an offensive weapon of striking against Russia, but the fear stems from the fact that the US already owns space in terms of satellites, and the installation of the missile shield would cement their position in the "space war". I heard an expert on the subject speak for an hour last week, and he said this is exactly why Russia is reacting the way that it is to the subject.

The system itself isn't offensive, but may negate MAD if developed enough. So, by Russia's thinking, if the US can survive a nuclear attack aimed at them whats preventing the US from striking first knowing that they can survive the retaliation?

Why is Russia up in arms about shooting us shooting down the satellite in the next few weeks, claiming it's a test of our ability to shoot down other countries satellites?

They really aren't, they're just trying to make the US look like sabre rattlers again. Which really the US is as is any world power. Thats why I'm saying the missile shield is more a sticking point than this weapons test. And yes, the point of the test is to prove our weapons systems work that in the event of an open war we can down enemy satellites.

That would indeed be evil. If another nation wants to launch a missile against us, we should NOT be able to defend against it.

Its called MAD, its what probably got us through the Cold War, remember? :p I'm sure you of all people on this board would remember this strategy.

[TrackZero]

What does Russia have to lose from Kosovo's independence?

Same thing you'd have if Texas decided to up and become it's own country.

[swiftdraw]

Same thing you'd have if Texas decided to up and become it's own country.

No, more like Vermont trying to I'd think.

[TrackZero]

That would indeed be evil. If another nation wants to launch a missile against us, or train a satellite on us to spy on us, we should NOT be able to defend against it.

I demand this defensive technology be stopped. Our government's priorities are out of whack; defending the populace against a North Korean missile or the like is right out! And who cares if the Chinese can do this? They surely would never do it, right? Right?

Who's China going to nuke? The states, their greatest trading partner? Yeah.....no.

[Johan]

Same thing you'd have if Texas decided to up and become it's own country.

That's not quite right, but I get what you're getting at. Texas is a part of the U.S., whereas Kosovo isn't a part of Russia, it was a part of Russia's cultural/ethnic/political ally, Serbia.

Who's China going to nuke? The states, their greatest trading partner? Yeah.....no.

I wonder where North Korea and Pakistan got their nuclear technology from? Hmmm...let's see. China hates India, as does Pakistan...a good match! North Korea is communist. Hmmm....

China doesn't need to threaten us directly. They just spread the means of doing so to others.

[Wslove]

Johan may appreicate this but Kosovo's declaring it's independence because it has a higher proprotion of ethnic Albanians then Serbs. This proprotion only grew in the last 50 years thanks to Albania being such a shithole and Tito's Yugoslavia being relatively peaceful and functioning (what with him murdering every ethnic nationalist that tried to say something and all). So all the Albanians illegally migrated over the boarder to Yugoslavia and settled into Kosovo, and for a time it was all good because they didn't start a rukus.

But the reason Kosovo is breaking away from Serbia now is not because it has always been home to native Kosovians or ethnic Albianians.

The reason is that the illegal immergrants now outnumber the more native population and made nice with the West. So we back them.

Yeah Serbia initiated a campaign of ethnic clensing on them and they are proper assholes for it. We were right to put a stop to it. But for everyone who thinks this is their land proper needs to do some research. This is not like the South breaking away during the civil war, it's not like a particular state breaking away from the US. It's like all the illegal immergrants in Southern California suddenly deciding that they want to rejoin Mexico. Because Kosovo will remain independent in name only, once everything is settled you can be sure it's going to become part of greater Albania.

[MacD]

Oh, shit. I would not be surprised if this means civil war. The tribalism fueled by the football hooligans over there is a dangerous feeding ground. Riots in Kosovo were the tinder for the first war there, too. Maybe it won't get that far, but I don't see any calming influence...

Johan, Pakistan got a lot of it's tech from the US, according to someone who has been called the most criminally underreported whistleblower in US history. Recent discovered documents put credence to the claim too (BBC found that documents which had been denied existed actually did exist). A dutch university course also helped the pakistani head of nuclear research, though :)

BTW, I think that list posted misses one rather important one...food prices. Potable water is up there, but food is going to be just as much of a problem.

As for Russia...they don't like the missile shield for a number of reasons, some stated here. One of the more interesting ones (and of lesser importance) is of course that the Bush missile shield doesn't work...a missile based defense just doesn't (as tests have proved many times over...hitting a missile with a missile is difficult enough, but add in MIRV's and decoys and there ain't a hope in hell). Laser based defense however could be made to work, and doesn't leave behind a missed interceptor missile which can easily drop down to the ground and go boom.
But what Russia REALLY doesn't like is yet another American base which is part of Echelon....listening posts on your border SUCK. Anything to make life harder for the Americans in that respect is a sound realpolitik move.

[Gilius Thunderhead]

The reason is that the illegal immergrants now outnumber the more native population and made nice with the West. So we back them.

You shitting me? I live in SoCal; I hope I can get out before the inevitable befalls us, then.

[Project Arcturus]

That's not quite right, but I get what you're getting at. Texas is a part of the U.S., whereas Kosovo isn't a part of Russia, it was a part of Russia's cultural/ethnic/political ally, Serbia.



I wonder where North Korea and Pakistan got their nuclear technology from? Hmmm...let's see. China hates India, as does Pakistan...a good match! North Korea is communist. Hmmm....

China doesn't need to threaten us directly. They just spread the means of doing so to others.

I believe Pakistan and North Korea, as well as Iran and Syria, obtained their nuclear technology from the Netherlands. Ever heard of A.Q. Khan?

Go ahead spouting your particular brand of political commentary though, I guess its only trolling the first thousand or so times.

[Wslove]

Oh, shit. I would not be surprised if this means civil war. The tribalism fueled by the football hooligans over there is a dangerous feeding ground. Riots in Kosovo were the tinder for the first war there, too. Maybe it won't get that far, but I don't see any calming influence...

Johan, Pakistan got a lot of it's tech from the US, according to someone who has been called the most criminally underreported whistleblower in US history. Recent discovered documents put credence to the claim too (BBC found that documents which had been denied existed actually did exist). A dutch university course also helped the pakistani head of nuclear research, though :)

BTW, I think that list posted misses one rather important one...food prices. Potable water is up there, but food is going to be just as much of a problem.

As for Russia...they don't like the missile shield for a number of reasons, some stated here. One of the more interesting ones (and of lesser importance) is of course that the Bush missile shield doesn't work...a missile based defense just doesn't (as tests have proved many times over...hitting a missile with a missile is difficult enough, but add in MIRV's and decoys and there ain't a hope in hell). Laser based defense however could be made to work, and doesn't leave behind a missed interceptor missile which can easily drop down to the ground and go boom.
But what Russia REALLY doesn't like is yet another American base which is part of Echelon....listening posts on your border SUCK. Anything to make life harder for the Americans in that respect is a sound realpolitik move.

A conventional missile defense system wouldn't work against a full force Russian attack... if Russia managed to launch first. That part is true. Key words there is if Russia managed to launch first.

What it would do is offer a signifigant amount of protection if the bulk of Russia's missiles were destroyed in a crippling first strike. You would have a signifigant drop of in launch capability including decoys and other anti-missle counter messures if NATO struck first and hard. As such yes, having a coventional missile defense shield does pose a signifigant threat to them as it unbalances MAD doctrine and actually promotes the idea of a survivable first strike senario. In fact it practically calls for a first strike doctrine on our part. That is something they do not want and most American likely do not want.

Neo-cons and chickenhawks fucking love the idea though because that means they might get to turn the big Russian bear into nuclear cinders, never mind radiation and fallout nor that Europe would still likely be fucked six ways from Sunday. They would love nothing more then to nuke the Ruskies and still be able to sit safe in their home masterbating to a giant portrait of Reagan (Like John McCain seems to be doing in his speeches as of late).

[Johan]

I believe Pakistan and North Korea, as well as Iran and Syria, obtained their nuclear technology from the Netherlands. Ever heard of A.Q. Khan?

Yes, indeed I have. There's no "one-stop shop" for nuclear technology, though! Thanks for playing, however! :rolleyes:

China proliferating nuclear technology to Pakistan. (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/sokolski200403160842.asp)

China providing nuclear technology assistance to Pakistan. (http://www.heritage.org/Research/MissileDefense/bg1935.cfm)

The nail in your intellectual coffin. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/pakistan/khan.htm)

There have however been a number of allegations regarding Pakistan’s nuclear weapon that its origins may lie with China, as Pakistan’s bombs closely mirror Chinese designs from the late 1960’s, and which relied on advanced, implosion-based detonation.

Go ahead spouting your particular brand of political commentary though, I guess its only trolling the first thousand or so times.

I'll stick with the evidence. You stick with being an asshole trying to score cheap points and failing miserably. :D

It's like all the illegal immergrants in Southern California suddenly deciding that they want to rejoin Mexico. Because Kosovo will remain independent in name only, once everything is settled you can be sure it's going to become part of greater Albania.

That's pretty interesting, actually. Very interesting, and merits further examination. Thanks!

Edit: Have to add this link, as well...

HTML version of a pdf you can link to from this site. (http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/30781.pdf)

Pakistan has sought technical assistance in its ballistic missile programs from North Korea and China for over a decade...

Lots of cooperation in nuclear and ballistic technology between...wait for it now...China, North Korea, and Pakistan!

dingdingdingding!

[Wslove]

You shitting me? I live in SoCal; I hope I can get out before the inevitable befalls us, then.

I live in SoCal too. And I was trying to point out that people saying it's like the South during the civil war or Vermont right now are wrong. It's like La Raza deciding to go through the Atzlan crap. Serbs were there for centuries, Albanians move in under the Ottomans then under Communism, then they claim it as their own. Only differance between us and them is that the USA is too busy making our illegals work for lower then minimum wages and not preforming ethnic cleansing.

Plus you know we tend to intrigrate our immergrants into society. Europe mindset is that they are seperate but equil. Which is why you have Kosovo, The French Riots, etc. They don't know how to deal with the high influx of immergants like the USA does.

[[GH-SC]Ryctor]

I loves you Johan... Nonsexual love of course but love none the less. Let us have a baby together ;)

lulz

[Project Arcturus]

Good links, your point is taken.

edit: also I retract the troll comment, though I still disagree with the way you tend to frame your arguments around here. your sarcastic "us hates muslims comment" above, for example, is ridiculous for many reasons, which I'm now sure you're completely aware of and just choose to ignore. to each his own, i guess.

[Johan]

Good links, your point is taken.

Sorry for the naughty word in response.

I forgot to include Russia in proliferation of nuclear technology to North Korea, as well...but there's such a tangled web of it all that nobody will ever know the complete truth of what originated where, when, and how it got wherever else it went. Ugh.

your sarcastic "us hates muslims comment" above, for example, is ridiculous for many reasons, which I'm now sure you're completely aware of and just choose to ignore. to each his own, i guess.

Actually, I said, "Too bad we hate Muslims so much."

Perhaps you don't understand my point. Many in the Muslim world, and in the liberal corridors of the Western world, refuse to give Western governments credit for circumstances where the West obviously assists Muslims in desperate need of help and protection. Americans and several European nations saved Muslim lives AND directly contributed to Kosovo becoming an independent nation.

We get no credit for that in the Muslim world, or the liberal "world," as far as I am aware. To that, I say a hearty, "fucking hypocrisy!" Because it is...

Also, as for how I frame my arguments, I've been here long enough to know it doesn't matter. When I first began posting here, I was verbally attacked, called unbelievable things, and just denigrated to a great degree...and that was back in the day when I actually took the time to be understanding and measured in my posts.

I no longer care, basically. If people take a shot at me, as you did, I just ream back. I got tired of it long ago. It's not personal. It's self-protection.

[iHap]

smlrSYiYd_o

[[GH-SC]Ryctor]

Actually, I said, "Too bad we hate Muslims so much."

Perhaps you don't understand my point. Many in the Muslim world, and in the liberal corridors of the Western world, refuse to give Western governments credit for circumstances where the West obviously assists Muslims in desperate need of help and protection. Americans and several European nations saved Muslim lives AND directly contributed to Kosovo becoming an independent nation.

We get no credit for that in the Muslim world, or the liberal "world," as far as I am aware. To that, I say a hearty, "fucking hypocrisy!" Because it is...

Also, as for how I frame my arguments, I've been here long enough to know it doesn't matter. When I first began posting here, I was verbally attacked, called unbelievable things, and just denigrated to a great degree...and that was back in the day when I actually took the time to be understanding and measured in my posts.

I no longer care, basically. If people take a shot at me, as you did, I just ream back. I got tired of it long ago. It's not personal. It's self-protection.

I understood what you ment Johan... after all we did to stop Milosevic from killing any more people and a dirty Albanian puts a fucking hole in my shoulder and if not for my SAPI one in my chest...

[[GH-SC]Ryctor]

Bump for OP-updateness

[Oxonian]

"If the EU works out a single position or if NATO steps beyond its mandate in Kosovo, these organizations will be in conflict with the U.N., and then I think we will also begin operating under the assumption that in order to be respected, one needs to use force," Moscow's ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin said, in comments carried by Russia's Interfax news agency.
Russia's going to attack if the EU works out a single foreign policy position? Relax, everyone, we're in no danger.

[Johan]

Russian dick-waving is just getting really tiresome. I wish they'd wave another part of their national anatomy around for a bit.

BTW: Southeastern Europe is historically a nice place to start world wars...