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Shadowstorm
02-13-2008, 07:31 AM
I emailed my senator, Tom Carper (Delaware), about the situation regarding the telecoms being in bed with the government a little while ago and I finally got a reply back this morning (Feb 13th). His response:

Dear Mr. M,

Thank you for contacting me regarding your concerns with the National Security Agency's warrantless surveillance program. I appreciate your views on this important matter.

As you may recall, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was created in 1978 to establish a process for obtaining a court order to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance in the United States. Director of National Intelligence, Admiral Mike McConnell, stated last year, however, that our intelligence community is "missing a significant amount of foreign intelligence that we should be collecting to protect our country." We all know that the United States continues to face real and immediate threats. For these reasons, I believe we cannot leave our country unprotected in this vulnerable post-9/11 period. That is why I joined many of my colleagues in altering the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act for a limited period of time and in a way that compelled the Congress to return to the issue this February. A two-week extension (Public Law 110-55) of the bill to give Congress more time to thoroughly consider the substance of a more permanent Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act law expires February 16th.

Not long after the horrific terrorist attacks on 9/11, President Bush authorized the National Security Agency to monitor phone calls, emails, and other communications originating from parties outside the U.S. with known or suspected links to al Qaeda, even if one party involved in that communication is within the United States. Critics of the National Security Agency's surveillance program have asserted that these intercepts are "domestic" and thereby require warrants issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. They claim that President Bush's actions - which have allowed eavesdropping to occur without first obtaining these warrants - have been and remain unconstitutional and violate Americans' civil rights. Moreover, many Members of Congress and civil liberties groups have criticized telecommunications companies for cooperating with the Administration's surveillance program by allowing the National Security Agency to monitor phone conversations. I am very concerned about these important privacy issues and will continue to support efforts to ensure that the privacy of Americans is protected while we continue to guard against very real threats to our safety and security.

As you may know, the temporary bill that was signed into law by the President last August allows U.S. intelligence officials to monitor communications of non-U.S. citizens overseas. The House Judiciary and Intelligence Committees both voted on October 10th to approve a revised Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act bill (H.R. 3773) sponsored by Judiciary Chairman John Conyers, Jr. (D-MI). The measure contains civil liberties protections strongly opposed by the Administration, and excludes a provision that would provide retroactive liability protection to telecommunications companies that cooperated with the Administration's secret surveillance program since September 11, 2001.

The Senate passed its version (S. 2248) on February 12th by a vote of 68-29. I supported the bill because I believe it succeeds in achieving a vital balance between fulfilling our national security needs while safeguarding citizens' constitutionally protected civil liberties. An amendment introduced by Senator Christopher Dodd (D-CT) to strike language granting retroactive legal immunity to telecommunications companies failed by a vote of 31-67. Opponents of retroactive immunity argue that companies should not be granted a pass on illegally violating the civil liberties of Americans, whether or not such practices are later codified into law. Proponents of the measure counter that the companies were supplying information critical to national security and requested by President Bush. Moreover, they note, the companies received regular letters affirming that the President had authorized the program and that the Attorney General deemed the program to be lawful. If anyone should be held accountable for breaking the law, they say, it should be the Administration. In other words, telecommunications companies are being sent a dangerous mixed message. After previously being told that divulging sensitive personal information was both legal and necessary for national security, they now face lawsuits by plaintiffs asserting the program was unlawful. If telecommunications companies can today face liability for actions they were told were necessary to protect national security, then private companies across all sectors will hesitate to divulge potentially sensitive information in the future.

I believe it is critical that the rule of law - in accordance with the Constitution - be followed at all times. I believe it is also important to balance our national security needs with respect for the civil liberties of our citizens. A conference committee will be established to bridge the differences between H.R. 3773 and S. 2248. Please be assured that I will keep your views in mind when I have an opportunity to consider and vote on the final, conference-passed bill.
Thank you again for contacting my office. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future about this matter or other issues of importance to you.

With best personal regards, I am


Sincerely,
Tom Carper
United States Senator

Discuss.

Gilius Thunderhead
02-13-2008, 07:33 AM
Step One: Post the transcript of the email.
Step Two: tl;dr!

No, I tease, but I don't have time to read this now. I'll get back to it later. However, my initial impression is "Cookie-cutter response to common question."

Citizen Philip
02-13-2008, 07:34 AM
Wall of text attack!

Defense: Revise

Otherwise: Thread death.

Shadowstorm
02-13-2008, 07:38 AM
Oh, come now, I expect the average attention span of a true Evil Avatar member to be higher than most everyone else on the Internet.

Rock Bandit
02-13-2008, 07:40 AM
Feel lucky he didn't write Biden, the response would of been a small novel.

I supported the bill because I believe it succeeds in achieving a vital balance between fulfilling our national security needs while safeguarding citizens' constitutionally protected civil liberties.

The man made his decision and now he's standing on it. Can't really fault him, if it's a bad choice we'll be sure to remind him come re-election time.

Ancalagon
02-13-2008, 07:40 AM
With best personal regards, I am

Sound like Yoda, he does, when cut his email, you do.

Otherwise, its kind of what I expected. A long answer, a lot of commonly known information, precious little justification. Still, not bad, he did explain his reasons for supporting the bill.

I'm in 2 minds about the telecoms. On the one hand, they did what they were led to believe was critical to national security. On the other hand, if the President asks you to murder someone in cold blood, you should ask questions about whether this is good for the country or good for the president. On the other other hand, saying no to the government is a sure way to get into hot water.

CoachCrazyMcScot
02-13-2008, 07:42 AM
Oh, come now, I expect the average attention span of a true Evil Avatar member to be higher than most everyone else on the Internet.

Sorry, I was reading the thread, eyes got tired, and started thinking about the SI swimsuit issue....

I'm up, I'M UP...

Lord_Don
02-13-2008, 07:42 AM
Summary:

I'm a government tool and only pay lip service to civil liberties. We should trust big brother and give him ultimate, unquestioned, power and stop asking so many goddamn questions. We're safe aren't we? Aren't we?

Dr.Finger
02-13-2008, 07:43 AM
Basically he says that the telecoms are asking for immunity for doing things they were ordered to by law. His response is to sent the matter to committee.

Wonda Mic
02-13-2008, 07:48 AM
That was a long response, but I feel that it did justify what he believes. Now, I don't have the same feelings at all. I believe that the government has/had no right to do what they did, and now the govt is going to let the telecom take the hit? I think that is entirely ridiculous, and quite frankly irresponsible.

NationalKato
02-13-2008, 07:51 AM
"...America went off the track somewhere - back around the time of the Civil War, or pretty soon afterwards. Instead of going ahead and developing along the line in which the country started out, it got shunted off in another direction - and now we look around and see we’ve gone places we didn’t mean to go. Suddenly we realize that America has turned into something ugly—and vicious—and corroded at the heart of its power with easy wealth and graft and special privilege…. And the worst of it is the intellectual dishonesty which all this corruption has bred. People are afraid to think straight—afraid to face themselves—afraid to look at things and see them as they are.

We’ve become a nation of advertising men, all hiding behind catch phrases like ‘prosperity,’ and ‘the American way.’ And the real things like freedom, and equal opportunity, and the integrity and worth of the individual—things that have belonged to the American dream since the beginning—they have become just words too. The substance has gone out of them—they’re not real anymore..."
~ Thomas Wolfe's You Can't go Home Again

CoachCrazyMcScot
02-13-2008, 07:53 AM
Are you surprised? I am not. Is it possible that any of these efforts have stopped terrorist attempts in their planning stages before they became actual events?

There is a line between right to privacy and right to protection. The same way a telephone number given to a retail sales associate can open up a bag of telemarketing and junk mail worms, any information disclosed by the individual is going to be up for grabs.

Unfortunately, this is now a part of life in America, where your freedom of choice shall lead to someone else's freedom to see your choices.

Deadend
02-13-2008, 07:54 AM
I skimmed the email, and I didn't see a yay or a nay.

SuicideKing
02-13-2008, 08:04 AM
I supported the program from the beginning so....

Slack3r78
02-13-2008, 08:08 AM
Just as a reference, e-mail is probably the least effective way of getting your representative's attention.

In-person visit > snail mail > phone call > e-mail.

roboninja
02-13-2008, 08:08 AM
I supported the program from the beginning so....

I am shocked :eek:
Just watch the telescreens to know what to do.

Karmakin
02-13-2008, 08:21 AM
This whole thing just sickens me. I'm what you would consider to be a "liberal", but this...I really go away from what a lot of my fellows think here. It just disgusts me. Maybe it's because I'm an outsider (my wife is from Virginia, and I lived there for quite a while), but fwiw this feels to be mostly political posturing. I mean, I understand why people are upset about this. Illegal wiretapping is bad, and that the telcos so willingly put in with the administration is..bad. But it remains that the criminal system has no way to deal with the telcos anyway, so that point is moot.

It's probably that through this whole debate, people have been "hiding" behind the constitution. I don't like this. In fact, it sickens me. Why? Because it means that spying on foreigners (and passing that information off to "friendly" interests) is just peachy keen. And quite frankly, I'm more concerned about this than the possibility that the DNC is wiretapped. Why? It's way more likely.

No, spying without a warrant is wrong for it's own sake. Privacy is a human right. Full stop. This is American Exceptionalism at its worst, and that should be a bigger concern than telco immunity. (Actually, I'd argue that exceptionalism is desensitizing, and that the telco immunity is a direct result of that desensitization of certain groups being above the law)

NationalKato
02-13-2008, 08:24 AM
If only it had been in response to 9/11. (http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/10/qwest-ceo-not-a.html)

SuicideKing
02-13-2008, 10:07 AM
I am shocked :eek:
Just watch the telescreens to know what to do.

/Sigh

Because being forcibly brainwashed against my will is exactly the same as protecting telcos from countless John Doe harassment lawsuits for helping out with national security, and allowing us to intercept time critical data in a time critical manner. Thankfully the bill stripping them of this immunity was voted down yesterday.

As we all know, the government currently reserves the right to wiretap your calls to your mistress, subsequently blackmailing you with said information to do their evil bidding, perhaps crewing the Bush weather generator to direct another hurricane at poor colored people... Or hiding the true culprit of 9/11.

They obviously have the resources and competence to throw at all cases that don't involve suspected or known terrorists communicating with other suspected or known terrorists, perhaps if they don't like your name you get wire tapped. Just to piss on your freedoms because Bush hates all that is good and just in the world, like your right to tell your mom you think he's a douche over the phone. Mandatory waterboarding and re-education for you!

IrishWhiskey
02-13-2008, 11:00 AM
Because being forcibly brainwashed against my will is exactly the same as protecting telcos from countless John Doe harassment lawsuits for helping out with national security, and allowing us to intercept time critical data in a time critical manner. Thankfully the bill stripping them of this immunity was voted down yesterday.They aren't getting private lawsuit immunity in the bill, or for violating customer rights or their service contracts, just legal amnesty for the crimes they say they didn't commit.

As we all know, the government currently reserves the right to wiretap your calls to your mistress, subsequently blackmailing you with said information to do their evil bidding, perhaps crewing the Bush weather generator to direct another hurricane at poor colored people... Or hiding the true culprit of 9/11. Um...Change weather machine to "Trying to blackmail Martin Luther King into committing suicide so as to silence his criticism of the government".... then yes.

Its hard to dismiss the idea of the government abusing its secret wiretap powers as fantasy, when it has happened before, including since 9/11.Just to piss on your freedoms because Bush hates all that is good and just in the world, like your right to tell your mom you think he's a douche over the phone. Mandatory waterboarding and re-education for you!Okay. Back in the real world, we are talking about whether telecoms should be given retroactive immunity for breaking the law, without the public even knowing what it is they did.


Also, the only Presidential candidate to vote against this immunity was Barack Obama. Hillary didn't even bother to show up for the vote.

Johan
02-13-2008, 11:05 AM
There was no illegal spying. There was no illegal spying. There was no illegal spying. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html)

51|RandoM
02-13-2008, 11:11 AM
That man has some great staffers.

SuicideKing
02-13-2008, 11:11 AM
They aren't getting private lawsuit immunity in the bill, or for violating customer rights or their service contracts, just legal amnesty for the crimes they say they didn't commit.

Um...Change weather machine to "Trying to blackmail Martin Luther King into committing suicide so as to silence his criticism of the government".... then yes.

Its hard to dismiss the idea of the government abusing its secret wiretap powers as fantasy, when it has happened before, including since 9/11.Okay. Back in the real world, we are talking about whether telecoms should be given retroactive immunity for breaking the law, without the public even knowing what it is they did.


Also, the only Presidential candidate to vote against this immunity was Barack Obama. Hillary didn't even bother to show up for the vote.


You do realize the absurd stuff wasn't a reply to the general comments on the board right? Only a rejoinder to roboninja's equation of support for the bill to the perfect citizen in our future authoritarian dystopia. I would have thought my quoting of that comment would make that clear...

Also, it's not unconditional wire tapping. Would MLK be classified as a terrorist or terrorist symphathizer with a frequent habit of contacting terrorists? No? Well he wouldn't be wiretapped then. Also, the killing of the recent amendment means it's inded very likely that telcos will get retro-active immunity for civil lawsuits over FISA so I think referencing that is appropriate.

As for violation of contracts, it all comes down to your priorities I suppose. If someone confides in his psychiatrist he intends to go on a murder spree, I would expect the doctor/patient contract to be violated in order to inform the authorities.

IrishWhiskey
02-13-2008, 11:23 AM
Also, it's not unconditional wire tapping. Would MLK be classified as a terrorist or terrorist symphathizer with a frequent habit of contacting terrorists? No? Well he wouldn't be wiretapped then. ...What? You do realize he wasn't supposed to be wiretapped then either unless he was a threat to the US. Its not like the legislation said "Please use this law to try and kill peace and civil rights activists".The people in power, including senior White House and FBI officials,
A. Took advantage of secrecy and lack of oversight, and viciously fought any accountability by justifying it as necessary to save lives, and
B. Had a very loose definition of what constitutes a terrorist sympathizer. They included non-violent peace groups such as the Quakers, environmentalists, and political opponents. Similar surveillance happened after 9/11 as well (yes, even with the Quakers).

So, we know that AT&T was given a chance to greatly expand their government enforced monopoly after agreeing to measures that (by all logical reasoning) must have been illegal, that increased government's surveillance and power over all citizens using its service. The government and companies refuse to acknowledge at all what they did, or who was spied on. Previous efforts at similar systems have started with promises, and ended with flagrant abuses. And your argument is that now we really can trust the government not to overstep its powers?

As for violation of contracts, it all comes down to your priorities I suppose. If someone confides in his psychiatrist he intends to go on a murder spree, I would expect the doctor patient contract to be violated in order to inform the authorities.So its okay to surveil and data-mine all people's communications through the major telecoms because it might stop murders? How is that not just a rationalization for a Big Brother society?

Shadowstorm
02-13-2008, 12:54 PM
There was no illegal spying. There was no illegal spying. There was no illegal spying. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html)

That is indeed an excellent article to read. Throughly informative.

I printed it out awhile ago. I have a corkboard in my room full of these types of articles.

Johan
02-13-2008, 03:45 PM
That man has some great staffers.

This man knows what he is talking about.

If you get a personal letter from a Congressperson, you are a wealthy lobbyist.