Future versions of Xbox 360 may not have hard drives

[Cyrano]

Some quotes from an interview with J. Allard from the September issue of Game Informer:

Q: Will the Xbox 360 be sold in different models, one with a hard drive and one without? What about different sized hard drives?

A: It's something we're not ready to announce yet...It don't think it's a one-size-fits-all [approach] over the next five-year horizon.

Q: We've heard form developers that because there will be some customers without hard drives for their 360s, that developers are mad that they can't automatically utilize the hard drive like in the original Xbox.

A: ...we've said [to developers], "Hey look, don't bank on the hard drive always being there. There may be a scenario in the future where we don't want to have a hard drive, and in that case, we have to make sure that the games that you've created are accessible to the broadest possible audience."

[thecrazyd]

Haha. Are you MS fanboys gonna yell how much the XBox sucks now that they are pulling the same shit Sony did?

[carneconcarne]

that seems dumb to ask a bunch of people who are working to make your system a success to make sure the game they're making will work without a hard drive because microsoft is thinking about releasing a no-hd version in the future. It would piss me off as a developer.

[Zanzibar]

This makes absolutely no sense. Developers LOVE the HDD in the Xbox. Is Allard talking about the Xbox 3 for backwards compatibility?? I wanna see the rest of the damned article.

[Heretic Machine]

Ya, sounds like the hard-drive is useless, I doubt that a developer will take the time to configure their game both for HD and non-HD XBOX's.

[Zeal]

Microsoft is really about to fuck up. Any way you look at it, this is a step back and in the wrong direction.

[thecrazyd]

Viva la Revolution!

[Deadend]

But... the HD cache rules!

Sad to see it go... espically now that it is needed more.

[Cyrano]

Here's the part of the article about backwards compatibility:

Q: So the first Halo, or any Xbox title, won't be backwards compatible if you don't have an Xbox 360 hard drive?

A: Yeah, it won't work. Backwards compatibility is going to require a hard drive. We've been talking a little bit about la-la land, and saying, "Maybe there's someday that [an Xbox 360] doesn't come with a hard drive." Actually, the very first one we sell is going to have a hard drive. It doesn't mean that the hard drive is always going to be attached. The owner can take it to a friend's house, and the other people [in the owner's house] can still use the 360 to play games.

Here's another quote from Allard:
"So we're saying [to developers], 'Don't bank on it, but use the crap out of it, because there's gonna be a ton of machines with hard drives no matter what happens in the future.'"

All I can hope is that this is an old interview that just got published in the new issue of this magazine, or that Allard and Microsoft come to their senses. La-la land indeed. That sounds fun for developers: use the crap out of the hard drive, then program your game a second way to work without it too.

[Cyrano]

One more quote:

Allard: "Look at the success the iPod has had by having different offerings. That is something we have looked at, sort of on the long-term horizon."

I think that's silly. All iPods have a hard drive.

I would just type up the whole interview, but it's two half-pages long. He says some stuff about choosing DVD over HD-DVD: they asked developers whether they would prefer speed (12x DVD) over storage size (HD-DVD, 1x or 2x Blu-ray) and the vast majority said speed (only like 5% said storage size). Allard actually makes a lot of sense in the parts of the interview that don't deal with the hard drive.

[doubtingthomas]

Is there a link?

[51|RandoM]

What they may really be saying is that they'll be using different tech for longterm in-console storage at some point.

Compact flash, and other similar products will eventually be able to fulfill that role relatively cheaply, and with no moving parts.

[Zanzibar]

J Allard needs to lay off the hard stuff. Interview STILL makes no sense. I mean, I understand what he's talking about, that if you've got two brothers with one X360 and one of the brothers makes off with the HDD to take it to a friend's house to copy savegames, then the other brother still should be able to play games on the HDD-less X360. But I just can't figure out if he's intimating that versions of the X360 will be sold without HDDs.

Is there a link?

Don't think so - it's from Game Informer magazine.

[51|RandoM]

One more quote:

I think that's silly. All iPods have a hard drive.



Ipod shuffle doesn't have a hard drive. :-)

[Cha-Ka]

This is really disappointing. Why would MS abandon one of the best features of their console?

[Knite]

<darthvader> NoooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo </darthvader>

[Furious Wang]

Haha. Are you MS fanboys gonna yell how much the XBox sucks now that they are pulling the same shit Sony did?

XBOX SUCKS NOW THAT THEY ARE PULLING THE SAME SHIT SONY DID!

[sync]

I think that's silly. All iPods have a hard drive.iPod Shuffle, flash based.
take it to a friend's house to copy savegameshow can you 'copy' something if you can't have two hard drives plugged in?
then the other brother still should be able to play games on the HDD-less X360You can.

[Stryfe01]

It's suicide if they do it. I want a hdd and all games, if not most should support it. They listened to gamers and developers before. I really do not understand why it would not listen now.

[Phades]

It's suicide if they do it. I want a hdd and all games, if not most should support it. They listened to gamers and developers before. I really do not understand why it would not listen now.

I think you meant to say "most, if not all." Sorry to be the Nazi.

[Zeal]

This move makes ZERO SENSE. That means every version of the console sold without a harddrive will NOT be backwards compatible. So not only are you paying for the harddrive, but the backwards compatibility feature, too.

Is this a joke?

[Babbster]

Here's what I get out of this: Because the hard drive is detachable in the X360, and thus the console can be turned on without it, Allard is concerned that consumers will be ticked if they can't play a game without the hard drive attached (i.e., if there are other ways to save games besides the hard drive - for example, the memory card that came with my XBL beta kit which, of course, I would never have bought on my own).

He also seems to want to make clear to developers that future MS consoles might not come with a hard drive and the concomitant effect on backward compatibility, which is understandable since technology is always in flux and flash memory keeps getting cheaper and cheaper. By the time Xbox 720, PS4, etc. hit the stage, 4GB or more of flash RAM will be cheaper than the smallest hard drive.

So, what would the end result of this be? I don't know, since I'm not a developer. But, following in the grand tradition of internet speculation, I'd guess this: Developers will be encouraged to a) keep game save sizes under control (KOTOR with its entire-memory snapshots comes to mind) and b) make sure the game is at least playable (and, presumably, enjoyable) without any caching to the hard drive. Point B seems like it's causing some concern, but it could be as simple for a developer as programming an "if HD attached then cache" into their games. Considering Sony and Nintendo will have NO hard drive by default, I think the concerns in terms of relative performance (which, after all, is the bottom line in a discussion of this sort) are unfounded - and, of course, premature.

[Chandler]

This move makes ZERO SENSE. That means every version of the console sold without a harddrive will NOT be backwards compatible. So not only are you paying for the harddrive, but the backwards compatibility feature, too.

Is this a joke?

Well, there is 512mb of ram there to utilize. Be interesting if they could just subtitute that for the HD cache in xbox games.

[51|RandoM]

It's suicide if they do it. I want a hdd and all games, if not most should support it. They listened to gamers and developers before. I really do not understand why it would not listen now.

You have to look at why they're putting the hard-drive in there in the first place. They're not doing it so devs can cache game content to disk.

They're doing it so that xbox360 will be backwards compatible with the xbox, so that it will have a large library of titles at release. Sure, they'll mostly be old xbox titles, but it is still a major selling point. You only have to look at the ps2, which has the crappiest hardware, but has the largest install base. Being backwards compatible with the ps1 is a big part of how they got there, imho.

So to continue on, xbox360 only needs that backwards compatibility to fuel initial sales, when there are relatively few xbox360 titles available. Once the 360 library grows to sufficient size, voila, no more need to put a costly hard drive into the console.

In my experience, the hard drive in the x-box goes almost entirely unused. What little content I've gotten from Live could easily fit on your average thumb drive. I don't blame them for wanting to axe that feature, or perhaps replace it with a cheaper alternative.

[Achilles]

Looks like almost everyone in this thread is surprised that they’ll be offering a version of the 360 some time after launch without a HDD in it. I hope you understand that they’ve been saying this for a good long time. The systems at launch will have an HDD, they’ll offer a cheaper model later that doesn’t have one. But if you want reduced load times, to get rid of memory cards, user created sound tracks, backward compatability or any of the other features that wouldn’t work without a HDD than you’ve got to buy one.

This is unlike what Sony is doing because their launch systems will have HDDs. That will get developers to use them because it’ll have an instant install base. Whereas Sony’s HDD got very little support because it came out 3 years after the system was released and you couldn’t save games to it, and it had no other features, so there was no real incentive for any non-FFXI player to get one. To compare launching with a hard drive and releasing a cheap version later, with not having a hard drive at all for the first couple years of the console’s life cycle is poorly thought out comparison.

[*Legion*]

Babbster: Exactly.

If the hard drive is present, then cache. Caching may very well be one of those things pretty much provided automatically by the OS, or some simple API calls.

Also, provide the capability to save to an external memory device. Or maybe not even that, but not have the game crap out just because there's no HD present (like PS2 games that warn you when you have no memory card - you can't save, but you can still play)

This is definitely being blown out of proportion. Unlike the PS3, Xbox 360s will by and large be expected to have hard drives.

[doubtingthomas]

Has anybody seen this article other than the poster? I don't see anything at http://www.gameinformer.com/default.htm

[eatme]

We've known this for months. *yawn*

[Rangoth]

So, am I going to have to go back to saving on memory cards? Thats *really* what I care about. Sorry to be so single minded but hell, the memory card shuffle just bugs the fuck out of me.

[Orphiuchus]

So the best reason to get a 360 is gone now?


I guess its time for a revolution.

[EvilBob46]

We've known this for months. *yawn*

I was under the impression that we've known for months HD is going to be standard in every XBox 360?

[doubtingthomas]

I was under the impression that we've known for months HD is going to be standard in every XBox 360?

Yeah I was too.

It seems kind of odd that somebody can just read a magazine, and then quote that as being news without any sort of source. This seems like it should be in the forums. Not to be a dick, but I can just say Sony has decided to skip the PS3 and wait for the PS4, which is coming out in 2010!! I read it in EGM!! It's News!!

I don't want to insinuate the poster is lying, but I know I sure don't go around to people trying to pass things off as fact and back that up with, "Well, some guy on the internet said............"

[Kelegacy]

This isnt cool. Maybe they think they can sell memory cards or something? The HD was the one thing I really enjoyed about the Xbox...I want it to made a STAPLE in videogaming, not go away now that MS is making strides. I'm not a huge Xbox fan, but I do appreciate the system and the future of gaming if they continue to force Sony to innovate or die stubbornly.

[bobbler]

The HDD is made to act as a big save card. It will still do that -- Developers were told not to write their game around caching to the HDD, because it might not be there. No big deal. I've been saying this for a while now... the reasons for an HDD are for saving stuff, not caching things.

Stop worrying guys. Some of you guys are far too concerned about caching than you should be. The effect of caching this generation will be far less than it was last generation (when the speed of the optical drive is far closer to do HDD than it was last generation).

The HDD is standard (for now) and the best use of it will be for Xbox Live! content (and acting as a free save card). Whether they decide to release a version without an HDD that is cheaper and then have HDD's seperate (of differing sizes also) is rather moot. The entire thing is moot -- stop worrying about the hardware differences between consoles and just wait for the games.

[Hellstorm]

This is really disappointing. Why would MS abandon one of the best features of their console?

There's tons of $$$$$$ in memory cards. Or did you not notice MS is going to nickle and dime to... maybe a profit with X360.

[Reanimated]

Dear god, does the storm of internet fucktard concocted bullshit ever end?

"Not at EA", says god.

[bapenguin]

this is old news. We talked about this 2 weeks ago. Can't find the article...but we mentioned that what happens when the hard drive isnt' attatched...like say you bring it over a friends house. It's teh same scenario...the developers have the tools to utilize it. NOT a big deal.

[doubtingthomas]

This is certainly the first I've heard that a Hard Drive is not going to come mandatory with the console. Actually, I guess I still haven't heard that............

[Zeal]

Everything will be revealed at X05.

Fire up the bongs.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

XBOX SUCKS NOW THAT THEY ARE PULLING THE SAME SHIT SONY DID!

You are right...except, there has been no announcement of it being removed yet. Or any concrete plans to remove it. Sony has said it was going to be dropped. However, until the final hardware is out, it is up in the air. When was MS supposed to post the price of this thing?

[rein]

I have no idea why the hell I would need to "take my hard drive" to a friends house that could not be corrected with a memory card. I mean, if the data is going to be small enough to fit on a memory card then I could just stick that in my pocket and carry it over. If the data is going to be to big for the memory card then wouldn't my "brother" need the hard drive at home for the 360 if he were going to be playing a game that requires data too big for the memory card? Sorry guys, I just see no reason I should ever need to carry a console game systems hard drive around with me. Those days were over when thumb drives came out. This is just all fucked up!

[Dracula-X]

You are right...except, there has been no announcement of it being removed yet. Or any concrete plans to remove it. Sony has said it was going to be dropped. However, until the final hardware is out, it is up in the air. When was MS supposed to post the price of this thing?
Official announcement on the 17th I believe...

Back to the story, I don't see this as a big deal one way or the other.

[score]

Hang on, Hang on.

We don't know for sure if this is true yet as nothing is officially announced but if it is then they're in the same camp as Sony (regardless of if the initial models have it). There's gonna be market fragmentation. If you know that in a years time theres gonna be a flavour of xbox released without a hard drive then do you program for the lowest common denominator or the highest?

I wonder how different games like Kotor etc, that have humongerous save files would be without the hard drive.

Anyway. To re-iterate. Unless (or until) its confirmed by Microsoft this is just another in a long list of interviews misunderstood, taken out of context, whatever. We've had our fair share of those so far....

[eatme]

I was under the impression that we've known for months HD is going to be standard in every XBox 360?

No, even at Gamefest/Xfest, they were saying, "don't assume you have a hard drive-- some versions my not have one". They talked briefly about caching to it, but they talked more about optimizing loads from DVD, to deal with the lack of HD.

[Cyrano]

It seems kind of odd that somebody can just read a magazine, and then quote that as being news without any sort of source. This seems like it should be in the forums. Not to be a dick, but I can just say Sony has decided to skip the PS3 and wait for the PS4, which is coming out in 2010!! I read it in EGM!! It's News!!

I don't want to insinuate the poster is lying, but I know I sure don't go around to people trying to pass things off as fact and back that up with, "Well, some guy on the internet said............"

That's exactly what you are insinuating. I didn't say some guy on the internet said it. I said it was from Game Informer. Yeah, I just made up a magazine interview. It's from a PRINT magazine. It's the magazine you get when you sign up for the little discount card at GameStop or EB, I forgot which.

Another guy refers to the same magazine article in
this thread (http://www.consolegold.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7865) at ConsoleGold. Do you think we independently made up the same article?

And bapenguin, the other thread didn't say anything about Microsoft not putting hard drives in future versions of the console, only that developers had to make their games work when the HD's were detatched. So this isn't old news.

Jesus Christ, that's the last time I post news for you unappreciative bozos.

[Babbster]

I wonder how different games like Kotor etc, that have humongerous save files would be without the hard drive.

That one's easy. They might have to take 10 minutes to make a "proper" console save system. I'm of course exaggerating, but had they planned things out better during development it would have been easy to reduce the size of the KOTOR save files to almost nothing. There just weren't enough variables to justify their huge size. On the other hand, Morrowind, with its huge number of NPCs, quests and, particularly, items, had a good excuse for its big save files.

[Wonka]

If you are MS, then you have to worry that an HDD-less PS3 will will sell for a lot less then you can sell your console for. You have to plan so that you might be able to compete with that scenario (in case it should come up). But at the same time, you also want people to use the HDD a lot. So what do you do? You ask programmers to use an if statement. It's not really that big of a deal, C++ programmers are downright comfortable with if statements.

What does that if statement buy you?
1) Games that use caching (or whatever) will still work when someones sibling takes the HDD to their friends house to demo the content they just downloaded.
2) And future consoles that ship without an HDD will be possible. Its still possible that if you sold them that nobody would want to buy them... It's not really clear at this time whether people would rather buy a console for $50 less and wait on the HDD, but if that is the preference, then MS doesn't want to be "stuck" with no options.
3) Future consoles will be easier to make backwards compatible. This time around, MS was forced to stick the HDD in to have backwards compatibility, next time they want to have more flexibility. What happens if in five years the way that everyone wants to store information is on the net rather than an HDD. By requiring games to not requiring it, MS is playing it safe and keeping their options open.

MS is still going to ship every initial unit with a HDD. Developers will use it because its (usually if not always) in there. Peripherals that do not get used, are the ones (most peripherals unfortunately) that have a low acceptance rate. At this point the verdict is not in about whether or not the HDD will always ship with the console. But more than likely the vast majority of X360s (if not all) will ship with HDDs, and this is more than enough incentive to put in an if statement for whatever extra performance you want to squeak out. Microsoft has far too much invested in the sale of online content to want the majority of their consoles to have no HDD. Since the pentration rate of broadband has passed 50% in the U.S. a while ago, it's likely that A LOT (maybe even the majority) of Xbox users will have a silver (free) membership to LIVE! which will allow them to be potential customers: providing that they have a HDD. I see this as MS just leaving the door open for a future budget priced version of the console.

As for KOTOR, the "everything saves" used by that game were extravagant and unnecessary. Everyone else saves their games in an efficient way, KOTOR saves were done that way because it was easier and because they could get away with it. Don't misunderstand me, the game was great, but there was no need to use that much space on the save files.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

That's exactly what you are insinuating. I didn't say some guy on the internet said it. I said it was from Game Informer. Yeah, I just made up a magazine interview. It's from a PRINT magazine. It's the magazine you get when you sign up for the little discount card at GameStop or EB, I forgot which.

Another guy refers to the same magazine article in
this thread (http://www.consolegold.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7865) at ConsoleGold. Do you think we independently made up the same article?

And bapenguin, the other thread didn't say anything about Microsoft not putting hard drives in future versions of the console, only that developers had to make their games work when the HD's were detatched. So this isn't old news.

Jesus Christ, that's the last time I post news for you unappreciative bozos.

Hey man, it comes with the territory of posting here without a 'link'. Don't sweat it. But do you have the issue number of GI? I get the magazine but must have browsed over that article...or not received it yet.
To be honest, if this is true as well as the HD-DVD models are true, then MS is slitting their own throats. Now you have at least three or more models you are selling to the consumer. HD-DVD, DVD and HD free version. This type of strategy never works on a console. At this point, Blu-Ray is going to win and MS would be better served to simply stick with the DVD format for a few years or manufacture ALL 360's with HD-DVD drives or Blu-Ray drives. The fragmented install base would kill the system.

Wow, and I thought Sony made stupid moves. With the PSP garnering support (5 million sold worldwide through June, 5 million pieces of software through June and more than 300k UMD's sold), Blu-Ray gaining more movie studio support and more pc manufacturers signing up to use the cell, it looks like Sony is back in business in a major way!

Oh yeah, Wonka's argument made the most sense so far. That, IMO, would have been the only reason this statement would have been made.

[sync]

So the best reason to get a 360 is gone now?


I guess its time for a revolution.what did the HDD do that other things can't?

custom soundtracks? you can do across network, a memory card, hell you can even stream from your PSP.
Saves? Maybe someone doesn't need GB of space and a 512 MB memory card is enough.
XBL? All you need is a memory card to store your profile. If you want DLC you can also save it on a memroy card, local HDD, and maybe even on a networked PC, 'My Xbox 360 Games'
Cache? games can be written to take advantage if the HDD is present. They just aren't allowed to require it.

The HDD cache was more of a crutch for developers on Xbox in that they took little time to actually improve performance from streaming from the disc and just dumped things to the HDD. Compared to say the PS2 where developers were forced to actually develop ways to use EVERY last bit of space and speed from the disc. I mean the HDD allows some cool things, but most cases similar things could be done without it.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I hated memory cards, just like I hate those stupid little memory sticks. The memory cards for playstation had too little memory to hold anything of significance. You had a few games you could store and that was it. Add to that, memory sticks are easy to lose or damage.
As for the lack of an HD forcing developers to squeeze out performance from the disk...that is one way of looking at it. If developers did the same on xbox and then integrated the HD into program, then you would get even better results. Don't blame the technology for making developers 'lazy'.
The HD (besides being a useful tool for developers who opted to use it) eliminated the need to get memory cards to load a game on. Xbox live maps that I've downloaded wouldn't even fit on one of the memory cards available. There are some huge saves (Ninja Gaiden or Morrowind) that made cards impossible. Plus, the HD was always there, you didn't have to worry about switching it out to save a game...it just made everything ready to go. I personally would hate to see the 360 ditch the hd...plus, it isn't even that expensive of a feature anymore.

[Babbster]

Wow, and I thought Sony made stupid moves. With the PSP garnering support (5 million sold worldwide through June, 5 million pieces of software through June and more than 300k UMD's sold), Blu-Ray gaining more movie studio support and more pc manufacturers signing up to use the cell, it looks like Sony is back in business in a major way!

I don't know how accurate your numbers are (I just don't keep track of console sales like some do), but if they are accurate then UMD would be, so far, very much a failure. Selling 5,000,000 UMD devices and 300,000 UMDs would be an attach rate of only 6% - one movie sold per SIXTEEN units.

As for the rest, Blu-Ray and Cell have potential but there will be no way to gauge either's success for at least another two years. In particular, I haven't heard about ANY upcoming general-purpose PCs based on the Cell processor - even Sony and Toshiba are only going to be releasing embedded-type (PS3 and HDTV) Cell-based systems in 2006.

[Rangoth]

Personally, if MS ditches the HD and makes me go back to memory cards they can kiss my butt! Twigs N Berries was right on the money a thousand percent. I hate memory cards. Its a very minor thing I admit but damn, I just love the saving on a HD that the XBOX givs me over PS2 and the GC.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I don't know how accurate your numbers are (I just don't keep track of console sales like some do), but if they are accurate then UMD would be, so far, very much a failure. Selling 5,000,000 UMD devices and 300,000 UMDs would be an attach rate of only 6% - one movie sold per SIXTEEN units.

As for the rest, Blu-Ray and Cell have potential but there will be no way to gauge either's success for at least another two years. In particular, I haven't heard about ANY upcoming general-purpose PCs based on the Cell processor - even Sony and Toshiba are only going to be releasing embedded-type (PS3 and HDTV) Cell-based systems in 2006.

This site says that the PSP has sold 5 million units
http://www.pspupdates.com/2005_06_26_archive.html

This link says the PSP has sold 3 million units in the US and Japan.
http://biz.gamedaily.com/features.asp?article_id=10257#10257

Where did they sell the extra 2 million units??

Here are their UMD sales numbers:
http://biz.gamedaily.com/features.asp?article_id=10050#10050
http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/5002/umd.html
http://www.breakingwindows.com/new/2005/07/umd_movies_are.php
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/vgames/articles/0714newlinepsp14.html
http://www.pspworld.com/sony-psp/umd-movies/

The PSP is being used as a medium to sell a lot of movies. You can say what you want, but the PSP isn't going anywhere and the movie attach rate is higher than the games. The support from movie studios have been crazy so far. Just go check out the PSP UMD lineup and coming soon section. 400k was the maximum and 200k the minimum. I guessed somewhere in the middle was closer to actual. The last thing I wanted was to start another flame war in here. Check out the sources I have cited and then do you own research. Then let me know if you think the UMD format is going to die anytime soon.

Funny, I heard it could play games too...well, that was if the pixels didn't go dead or the square button was necessary in the game.

[Babbster]

Considering one of those articles noted that Sony has waived royalties on UMDs, I just wouldn't consider it a big factor in Sony's financial health. The fact that they're going to be trying to push three disparate formats - UMD, DVD and Blu-Ray - as of next year is also not a good sign for the long-term health of UMD. I guess I'm just one of those who figures that any UMD sales constitute at best a fleeting fad. It's also possible that it's a side effect of the fairly anemic PSP game lineup (the "Well, I paid for it so I'd better do something with it" factor).

In any case, I didn't consider my previous post a flame. Disagreeing and flaming are two very different things. If nothing else, a little cursing or name-calling would seem to differentiate the latter from the former :D.

[bapenguin]

People are still taking what he says the wrong way. He's not saying there won't be a hard drive. He's saying there may be a model that comes without the hard drive.

The downside to that is it "splits" the market, but like I said, this isn't any different than the previous article from a developers perspective.

[doubtingthomas]

That's exactly what you are insinuating. I didn't say some guy on the internet said it. I said it was from Game Informer. Yeah, I just made up a magazine interview. It's from a PRINT magazine. It's the magazine you get when you sign up for the little discount card at GameStop or EB, I forgot which.

Another guy refers to the same magazine article in
this thread (http://www.consolegold.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7865) at ConsoleGold. Do you think we independently made up the same article?

And bapenguin, the other thread didn't say anything about Microsoft not putting hard drives in future versions of the console, only that developers had to make their games work when the HD's were detatched. So this isn't old news.

Jesus Christ, that's the last time I post news for you unappreciative bozos.

I'm sorry, maybe I should have explained myself better. I'm really just surprised that the mod/editor approved this as a news item, when there's no link. Anyone, not just you, should have to link quotes such as these, as opposed to just claiming them. This kind of thing just seems like it belongs more in the forums, that's all.

[Redline]

Microsoft has paid no attention to the past. Dividing your audience is a bad thing and not including the HD in some models of the XBox pretty much means that any developer that is paying attention WON'T make use of said device. This means that the HD might be pretty redundant (for games) right from the outset.

[sync]

plus, it isn't even that expensive of a feature anymore.Actually it is. The Xbox 360 HDD is a 2.5 inch SATA drive. They aren't cheap.
The downside to that is it "splits" the marketIt really doesn't. Because devs can stream to the HDD, they just can't require the HDD. If you want a HDD, then nothing is stopping you.
Microsoft has paid no attention to the past. Dividing your audience is a bad thing and not including the HD in some models of the XBox pretty much means that any developer that is paying attention WON'T make use of said device.Again, it really isn't a device that can split, because games can't require it right now. It is a feature that IF you want it, then you can have it. When you buy a car and can pick between a stick or auto, does that split the market? Not really, because both use gas and both will take you where you want to go. Games can run on a system with and without a HDD. This is what MS has been telling developers for months now.

You guys make it sound like you won't be able to get a system with a HDD.

[mister_slim]

It's funny watching people freak out over old news.

[Redline]

You guys make it sound like you won't be able to get a system with a HDD.

I didn't say that at all. I said if developers do not listen. The unavoidable result of this move is that eventually there will be two devices on the market with different specifications. Now, in the case of the XBox 360 where it will apparantly only be used in the case of backwards compatibility it may not be such a big deal (and hence, you are 'correct').

Point is, there's still two differently spec'ed devices. Late adopters may buy a 360 based on the idea that it will play XBox games because 'their neighbours 360 does'. Ma and pa run out and buy the non-HD version, it doesn't work. The market is still split.