Marvel MMO officially cancelled

[Doctor Setebos]

Stephen Totilo got a chance to talk to Microsoft's Shane Kim (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/02/11/microsofts-shane-kim-on-fable-2-why-marvel-mmo-was-canceled-and-more/). They talked about Fable 2 development, the Gears of War franchise becoming Kudo Tsunoda's responsibility, and, the death of the Marvel MMO.

When we first entered into the development and agreement of the development of ‘Marvel Universe Online,’ we thought we would create another subscription-based MMO. And if you really look at the data there’s basically one that’s successful and everything else wouldn’t meet our level or definition of commercial success. And then you have to look [and say]: ‘Can we change the business model for that? Is that really viable given how far we are in development? And so forth. Does Marvel want to do that?’ There’s a whole bunch of factors.There were a lot of things discussed in the full interview, but the biggest piece by far is the news on the confirmed death of the Marvel MMO.

[mr. murphy]

"We knew we couldn't beat WoW so we stopped trying."

[TheFlyingOrc]

"We knew we couldn't beat WoW so we stopped trying."

WoW really is a self-fulfilling prophecy in the "can't be beat" category.

[menage]

Still I think a very good console MMORPG would sell buckets. I'm still waiting for one cause I want to play from the couch.

[roboninja]

Well, sucky news. I was looking forward to the Marvel MMO. If devs start looking at WoW as something they have to beat to be sucessful, they might as well just stop making MMOs altogether. WoW seemed to hit s perfect storm of factors to get as popular as it did, and this may very well never be equalled. But devs/publishers need to get it through their heads that you do not have to top the best ever to be successful.

[Gorvi]

"We knew we couldn't beat WoW so we stopped trying."
Since WoW isn't available on a console, how is it relevant to a 360 Marvel MMO. It's a different market.

[Doctor Setebos]

Since WoW isn't available on a console, how is it relevant to a 360 Marvel MMO. It's a different market.It was planned as a simultaneous release 360/PC game (http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3154053) where players from either system could interact in the same world.

Maybe it was too ambitious a goal?

[Gorvi]

It was planned as a simultaneous release 360/PC game (http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3154053) where players from either system could interact in the same world.

Maybe it was too ambitious a goal?
Ahh, ok. Nah, not too ambitiuos. FFXI has been doing that for over 5 years now (PS2/PC/360 cross platform play).

[Doctor Setebos]

Nah, not too ambitiuos. FFXI has been doing that for over 5 years now (PS2/PC/360 cross platform play).Gotcha. I wasn't sure if there was a precedent for a cross-platform MMO.

So, is WoW-ism going to halt just about every MMO from here on out? I mean, if they don't think an MMO with the Marvel name attached to it can beat the WoW juggernaut, then what hope does any other property have?

[Klade]

Have to agree with general sentiment about devs killing games cause it can't beat WoW. There is a large market of former WoW players and folks that don't play WoW but would another MMO and of folks that would play WoW AND another MMO. That market can be tapped succesfully to provide prophet. Theres a dozen MMO's out there proving that theory right now. A Marvel MMO could do it if done right. My bet is that in the end they couldn't figure out enough about how this one was going to be different from City of Heroes. Speaking of which, wasn't it Cryptic and not Microsoft that was developing this?

[Gorvi]

Gotcha. I wasn't sure if there was a precedent for a cross-platform MMO.

So, is WoW-ism going to halt just about every MMO from here on out? I mean, if they don't think an MMO with the Marvel name attached to it can beat the WoW juggernaut, then what hope does any other property have?
I think any company out there is kidding themselves if they are trying to "beat" WoW. Other games can coexist, though, and there are more than a few of them out there.

[Deadend]

It probably was also canned from being just like every other MMO in terms of controls.

[Heretic Machine]

You don't have to beat WoW to be profitable. MMOs can survive with a relatively low subscriber base, and still be quite profitable. This is just MS chickening out on the MMO biz, again. Not that I mind, I'm happy in CoH/CoV, and a Marvel MMO could only spell bad things for my MMO of choice.

It probably was also canned from being just like every other MMO in terms of controls.

Yeah, they're going to stop making FPS games too.

[Doctor Setebos]

That market can be tapped succesfully to provide prophet.That is by far the best misspelling I've seen in ages. :)

Speaking of which, wasn't it Cryptic and not Microsoft that was developing this?Yes, Cryptic was developing this. Microsoft was publishing.

[balamoor]

So this is how many MMO's Microsoft has killed now?

It's getting to be whenever I see that Microsoft is "Publishing" a MMO I know immediately that it will never see the light of day.

MS will not follow through on any MMO project unless they can get WoW like numbers period, Developers should realize this finally and run when MS knocks on their door.

[Roc Ingersol]

Still I think a very good console MMORPG would sell buckets. I'm still waiting for one cause I want to play from the couch.Agreed. And a superhero beat-em-up is still a great idea for that market.

I also think their excuse that the market (E.g. CoH) isn't big enough is a bullshit PR answer. It's not like that market is different than it was when they started. Hell, CoX has only gotten bigger.

My guess is that the project was stuck in a dev spiral much like their past fantasy MMOs (True Fantasy Live, Mythica, Vanguard) and they decided to not throw good money after bad. Particularly not for a game with a licensed IP. 'What went wrong' probably boils down to 'we had no clear plan or vision for what the game was and we never really found one'.

[mr. murphy]

Since WoW isn't available on a console, how is it relevant to a 360 Marvel MMO. It's a different market.

Apparently they felt it was relevant, since they said "And if you really look at the data there’s basically one that’s successful and everything else wouldn’t meet our level or definition of commercial success." Which one did you think they were talking about?

I assume it's relevant because the average gamer - for example, me - won't pay for more than one monthly subscription at a time, regardless of what system it plays on.

[Roc Ingersol]

Which one did you think they were talking about?CoH?

Surely they don't consider EQ's ridiculous profit at this stage to 'not meet their definition of commercial success'. So clearly they're not talking about all MMOs.

[Deadend]

You don't have to beat WoW to be profitable. MMOs can survive with a relatively low subscriber base, and still be quite profitable. This is just MS chickening out on the MMO biz, again. Not that I mind, I'm happy in CoH/CoV, and a Marvel MMO could only spell bad things for my MMO of choice.



Yeah, they're going to stop making FPS games too.

Well, MMOs have boring controls, hit that hotkey for special attack 1, 2, 3, wait for 1 to refresh, hit it again. If it was going to turn out like CoH, it would be boring, as running around and doing combat as Wolverine or Iron Fist or Spiderman would be the same except for your attacks would have different animation.

Maybe a console MMO should be held off until the classes FEEL unique, and maybe have unique UIs.

[King Drewsky]

I don't blame them. How many MMORPG's have launched since WoW that have been successful? Zip. Zero. Zilch. Developing an MMORPG is very cost intensive and if there seems to be no probability of recouping the cost it doesn't make a lot of sense to make this type of game. I do like his comments about changing the business model. I think casual gamers would be more interested in a Marvel MMO if the cost model was different than the standard $15 a month. They could instead sell new missions monthly which would make it similar to comic books getting new storylines monthly.

[Telefrog]

I think the big issue with a Marvel or DC branded MMO on the console is that it would be directed at a 'mainstream' audience that wants to play The Hulk, or Spider-Man, or Batman, or whomever. That audience does not want to play 'generic superhero guy' at all. They want to be the stars, not the sidekicks.

The CoH/CoV approach is fine when you aren't trying to replicate a known comic book universe nor appeal to the average console gamer. I don't think it would work particularly well on the 360 with established NPCs wandering around being 1000 times more kickass than you.

[Jack B]

It probably was also canned from being just like every other MMO in terms of controls.

Maybe. That might be where a Conan might have an edge. It's more combat oriented and should use the controller well in that regard. Sure hope Conan works well with a controller.

It's also a good reason to go with proximity voice option instead of a keyboard only. Keyboards + controller or K/M don't work as well on a sofa as an office chair & desk. I'm pretty sure Conan will be keyboard + controller only though... :( I don't feel that lucky.

[Klade]

That is by far the best misspelling I've seen in ages. :)


Thanks, I do shoot for a high level of amusement in every sentence. :cool:

[bean19]

Since WoW isn't available on a console, how is it relevant to a 360 Marvel MMO. It's a different market.

This is exactly true.

Also, I wonder what Kim's numbers are showing him. There are tons of articles that show how MMOs are extremely profitable after you reach just 100K subscribers. A good MMO (not even an extraordinary one like WoW, but one like EVE or CoX) could easily have a million subscribers.

[bean19]

I don't blame them. How many MMORPG's have launched since WoW that have been successful? Zip. Zero. Zilch.

Pirates of the Burning Sea is an excellent MMO that plays quite a bit like Sid Meier's Pirates crossed with Eve Online's economy and PvP features. It is outstanding in how it changes the formula of "hitting special skill 1, 2, 3" into working together as a team to take out the armor on ONE side of a ship while using the wind to gain best speed and the proper ammo for your range and intended target (sails, hull, or crew). Excellent quest writing with interesting events. . .

In the best quest I played so far, I boarded the ship of a Crazy Rogue Captain who proceeded to blow the ship up. I was stranded upon an island and had to find parts of the destroyed ship to help me construct the ship. Luckily, another castaway was on the island named Wilson (get the reference?) and was able to help. The final bit of ship I needed was deep in the jungle and defended by a gigantic crocodile. Wilson and I defeated it, but in the process my leg was eaten. I put together the desperation raft and used it to sail back out to sea where I was met by my ship and fitted for a peg-leg by the ship's surgeon.

However, to speak more directly to your point. This game is going to be profitable because it does something else. It goes after a different customer. Likewise, LotRO is doing well. . . though it is doing so by being a reskinned WoW.

I do like his comments about changing the business model. I think casual gamers would be more interested in a Marvel MMO if the cost model was different than the standard $15 a month. They could instead sell new missions monthly which would make it similar to comic books getting new storylines monthly.

I don't know that a change in the business model is needed. If a game on PC can sell millions of copies around the world and get subscriptions, then it stands to reason that the much larger console market will have players willing to pay that (or higher) amounts.

In fact, I think that if you are going to get people over the hump of paying ANYTHING over and over again, then you have to deliver a game experience that is so great that they'll play for months. Anything that addictive and fun will be worth $15 to the people who love it. I can't think of any casual game that my girlfriend or my Mom would pay to play each month. They tend to like variety and not much of a commitment. When it gets difficult, they'll try harder, but if they don't immediately get better, then they quit.

I think an MMO aimed at the casual market simply can't have ANY subscription fees.

[lost]

Is the DC MMO still going full steam? It seemed to be set up in retort and I was looking forward to it more anyway.

DC FTW.

[Gorvi]

Apparently they felt it was relevant, since they said "And if you really look at the data there’s basically one that’s successful and everything else wouldn’t meet our level or definition of commercial success." Which one did you think they were talking about?

I assume it's relevant because the average gamer - for example, me - won't pay for more than one monthly subscription at a time, regardless of what system it plays on.
That's still a dumb way of looking at it. That's like saying "Why play baseball when the Yankees are out there?".

[BigJonno]

Listen up, Microsoft.

1. Develop 360 MMO.
2. Make it free to play for Xbox Live Gold members (y'know, the people who are already paying you a monthly subscription.)
3. Profit.

How many Live subscribers would buy an MMO knowing that it would be free to play with something they pay for already? How many people would subscribe to Live with a free MMO subscription thrown in?

[Flatpicker]

This would have been the perfect place for Shadowrun.
SR-MMO on xbox live.
Damn, you Microsoft for ruining the IP.

[bub64882]

I think the big issue with a Marvel or DC branded MMO on the console is that it would be directed at a 'mainstream' audience that wants to play The Hulk, or Spider-Man, or Batman, or whomever. That audience does not want to play 'generic superhero guy' at all. They want to be the stars, not the sidekicks.

The CoH/CoV approach is fine when you aren't trying to replicate a known comic book universe nor appeal to the average console gamer. I don't think it would work particularly well on the 360 with established NPCs wandering around being 1000 times more kickass than you.

Exactly. I think the problem w/ the Marvel MMO is the same as the Star Trek MMO...It's hard. Different reasons for both, but Marvel Comics + MMO is not a slam dunk. It would have to be done very carefully to have any appeal for me.

Now the recently cancelled Marvle Fighting game OTOH.../Cry. That game had me really excited, and I'm sorry it was aborted.

[Xerxes]

Gawd. I'm going to switch to the PS3 just cause I hate Shane Kim. I mean, Kudo?! What the fuck man.

[Jack B]

Listen up, Microsoft.

1. Develop 360 MMO.
2. Make it free to play for Xbox Live Gold members (y'know, the people who are already paying you a monthly subscription.)
3. Profit.

How many Live subscribers would buy an MMO knowing that it would be free to play with something they pay for already? How many people would subscribe to Live with a free MMO subscription thrown in?

That may work, but that wouldn't pass as a well thought out business plan. Sure takes less effort and no spreadsheets needed! :D

One issue about Gold users for free is that most spend $3-4 per month (ie $30-$50 a year). That money is spread across a bunch of things, not just one game, so how much would go to the MMO? $1-$2 a month?

That's peanuts compared to what the WOW's of the world or typically MMO's make on a monthly basis. $12 a month is $144 a year. $2 a month is $24 a year. Hmmm, not sure the math works.

I'd say they need a monthly subscription, but a Silver account is all that's needed.

[Jack B]

Not sure about most of the release dates, but there are some promising new IP's and a couple of older ones coming out in the new 3-18 months.


“Marvel Universe Online“ - I can't figure out what "new models" he's talking about. Too vague. Bummer. I want an MMO, but Conan is more my style. Hope Conan was so good it killed Marvel Universe. Probably not, but here's to hoping.


“Fable 2“ - Pretty good game, that sold well, but was over hyped. Who isn't skeptical this time around. I like the pet dog idea, but it's the end product that counts, not hype.


“Gears of War“ - This will sell extremely well, but I wonder how much different it will be than the last Gears. It probably doesn't need to be too much better. COD 4 / Vegas style leveling and scoreboards would be nice, IMO.


“Too Human“ - Not my style of game, but I love the back story/universe. I think this might turn out better than expected, but given the beating it's taken, that's not saying much....


“Alan Wake“ - It's a bit more adult than most console titles in story line, but I haven't seen anything mind blowing. It's all about the story at this point and who knows if that will fizzle after the car crash or what...


“Mass Effect“ - This franchise looks to be a slam dunk. It has loyal fans and lot's of room to expand the story, fix the technical issues etc. Great game even with the warts. Take out the warts with Mass Effect II and it could be big.


“Crackdown“ - Under hyped game, that took a beating prior to release, but ended up being very popular. Good for sandbox fans, who don't like to be a thug. Good guys FTW!


“Banjo Kazooie 3“ - I'm so far removed from the demographic for this game, I thought it was a new DLC song pack for Rock Band.


“Viva Pinata“ - Often slandered game, that drew in a real following. Not sure how much different Viva Pinata II would be, but it was a solid game. It was probably marketed a bit too much to kids, when most kids needed a degree in genealogy, animal husbandry and mathmatics to really succeed. Most kids didn't have that. Mom and dads liked it though. Note: I sold my copy to a friend's 9 year old son and he's hooked, though...


“Halo“ - Franchise, that prints money. Amazing game with a ton of new and innovative features, but somehow got outshown by COD 4. Hard to believe, but it happened. Another Halo would likely print money again. Not as much, but still.

[DubiousQuality]

So is this the point where I can say I told you so? Because I told you so.

[Johan]

Perhaps the idea of people sinking too many consecutive hours into their MS-OS PC or 360 would cause....well...you know.

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/bsod.gif

http://www.eppo-ombouw.nl/catalog/images/xbox_360_kapot_rrod.jpg

[51|RandoM]

WoW really is a self-fulfilling prophecy in the "can't be beat" category.

WoW could be beat, it would just take more money up front than seemingly anybody is willing to spend.

The last company I'm aware of that spent enough money up front for content before release????? Hmm, I think that was Blizzard. :)

Shame nobody else in the MMORPG seems capable of connecting those two bits of information.

[mister_slim]

I guess Ken Lobb is still at MS. I thought he used to be the guy that kept Rare in line for Nintendo, but apparently not.

[bean19]

WoW could be beat, it would just take more money up front than seemingly anybody is willing to spend.

The last company I'm aware of that spent enough money up front for content before release????? Hmm, I think that was Blizzard. :)

Shame nobody else in the MMORPG seems capable of connecting those two bits of information.

Warhammer Online