They're Going to Tax What?!?

[Dr.Finger]

Those outside of New York may not be too familiar with our governor, Eliot Spitzer. He swept into office last year on his record as a crusading AG, and then proceeded to piss off everyone on both sides of the aisle. Now he's trying to come up with a way to close the budget gap and one of his solutions is rather...interesting (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/23/nyregion/23malt.html?_r=1&oref=slogin). But there was no shortage of chilly opinion about Gov. Eliot Spitzer.He plans to close a multibillion-dollar budget deficit partly by sharply raising taxes on small cigars like White Owl and Swisher Sweets and even more for malt liquors like Olde English “800” and Colt 45. The governor’s proposal would lift the malt liquor tax to $2.54 a gallon from 11 cents a gallon.
For a 40-ounce malt liquor, that would mean a tax of 79 cents per bottle, up from less than a penny, if the proposal is approved by the State Legislature. “It’s messed up, it’s wrong!” said Darryl, who looked as though he was in his 50s and was bundled up against the cold. “You got mostly poor people like me buying malt liquor.”
Asked why he bought malt liquor rather than beer, Darryl, who declined to give his last name, looked quizzically at a reporter and replied, “You get twice as much, and it’s got a bigger kick to it.”
A 40-ounce malt liquor, almost a third of a gallon, will cost up to $2.50, compared with $3.50 or more for an equal amount of beer. While beer contains about 5 percent alcohol by volume, malt liquor can have as much as 9 percent.
Roman Isre, 28, a barber at Erik’s Barber Shop on 10th Avenue, said he bought malt liquor once or twice a week. “That’s bad!” Mr. Isre said when told about Mr. Spitzer’s proposals.
Would he buy less malt liquor? Mr. Isre smiled. “Nah. You got to do what you got to do,” he said. “It’s like gas. You drive the same mileage for $2 a gallon or $3.50 a gallon.”
--
Little cigars, or cigarillos, are about the size of cigarettes but are wrapped in whole-leaf tobacco instead of cigarette paper. But the two products will now be taxed similarly, Mr. Gordon said.
Cigarillos are now taxed as tobacco products, at 37 percent of the wholesale price, but they do not carry the “tax stamp” of cigarettes. In New York City, cigarettes carry a state tax of $1.50 and city tax of $1.50 per pack. Under the governor’s proposal, cigarillos would carry a tax stamp, too.That's right, he's going to tax 40s, blunts and cigarillos. This after decrying various other taxes as 'regressive'. Other than maybe lottery tickets, is there any tax more regressive than one on malt liquor and cheap cigars?

[pwnophobia]

How much is a pack of cigarettes in NY?

[mr. murphy]

Those outside of New York may not be too familiar with our governor, Eliot Spitzer. He swept into office last year on his record as a crusading AG, and then proceeded to piss off everyone on both sides of the aisle.

What's an AG?

Yeah, this basically seems like a tax aimed at the lowest income members of the city.

[Schnoogs]

So in other words he's taxing the poor...smooth

[Dr.Finger]

What's an AG?

Yeah, this basically seems like a tax aimed at the lowest income members of the city.Attorney General.

And a pack of cigs in New York City sells for about $7 i believe right now, although it's lower, sometimes a lot lower, outside of the city.

[51|RandoM]

That's right, he's going to tax 40s, blunts and cigarillos. This after decrying various other taxes as 'regressive'. Other than maybe lottery tickets, is there any tax more regressive than one on malt liquor and cheap cigars?

It is one way to indirectly tax illegal drugs, based upon my limited experience with people who routinely drink malt liquor and smoke those types of tobacco.

Spitzer is a bit of a nut, in case anybody out there hasn't realized it yet.

[mr. murphy]

It is one way to indirectly tax illegal drugs, based upon my limited experience with people who routinely drink malt liquor and smoke those types of tobacco.

Spitzer is a bit of a nut, in case anybody out there hasn't realized it yet.

The people who use illegal drugs are, statistically, the poor.

Not always of course, but it's a well known and discussed economic fact.

[Oxonian]

Asked why he bought malt liquor rather than beer, Darryl, who declined to give his last name, looked quizzically at a reporter and replied, “You get twice as much, and it’s got a bigger kick to it.”
Would he buy less malt liquor? Mr. Isre smiled. “Nah. You got to do what you got to do,” he said. “It’s like gas. You drive the same mileage for $2 a gallon or $3.50 a gallon.”
It warms the cockles of my frigid heart to see the good burghers of my hometown engaging in such gimlet-eyed economic analysis.

[swiftdraw]

Welcome to NY, where they tax the shit out of everything up here. Upstate is particularly bad as almost all industry has died or is dying and taxes are so high no one wants to move in to replaces those who left. Have an 8% to 8.5% sales tax on everything around here so its hard to buy anything expensive as you'll probably have $40 or more in tax.... Gah! Can't wait to go to BMT and get fucking out of this hell hole.

[51|RandoM]

The people who use illegal drugs are, statistically, the poor.

Not always of course, but it's a well known and discussed economic fact.

I don't care what income bracket they are in. Speaking of which, which income bracket would you say receives a larger portion of the social services that are paid for with taxes?

[Nuggsy]

The people who use illegal drugs are, statistically, everyone.

Not always of course, but it's a well known and discussed economic fact.

Fixed that for you. It depends on what drugs you're talking about. For me this seems like a roundabout way of taxing items that, stereotypically, are used by minorities. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a forty now and then, and used to be all about blunts in high school, but the media typically shows things such as fortys and blunts in the hands of minorities; it seems like a backhanded attack on minorities is what I'm trying to get at here. Just my opinion...

[Dr.Finger]

It warms the cockles of my frigid heart to see the good burghers of my hometown engaging in such gimlet-eyed economic analysis.The Old Gray Lady's interactions with some of New York's most colorful denizens is the best part of the article (and I do mean 'colorful' in several ways).

[Bingley Joe]

Mr. Isre smiled. “Nah. You got to do what you got to do,” he said. “It’s like gas. You drive the same mileage for $2 a gallon or $3.50 a gallon.”

Pure genius!

Reminds me of the last time I was in New York. There was a guy with a sign around his neck that read:

Bullshit - $2.00
Get it before the price goes up!

Then as people passed him he'd flip it over, and on the back it said:

Bullshit - $5.00
TOO SLOW SUCKER!

And he'd giggle away to himself. It was awesome! I must've watched that guy slinging bullshit for a good 20 minutes :D

[Bad_Buddha]

Alcohol and tobacco products. Wow! I'm not surprised. When have they not been taxed.

[SilentScreams]

Living in the UK, I have no sympathy for Americans when it comes to taxes. Come over here and see what real taxes are like.

[Gerbs]

Sorry I have no idea what 40 ounces of beer is. How much does it cost in New York for 12 bottles of beer from the liquor store? Here it is usually around 20 dollars CDN.

[PathMaster]

I really see no issue with this at all. It is still cheap for the 40s then beer. College kids use that as a cheap way to get drunk, guess what, they will still do that. Honestly, Spitzer may seem crazy at times, but he is doing a fine job. Bruno and TrooperGate can go right to hell.

[Sammael]

On Long Island I can usually get a pack of cigs for about $5. NYC has the extra tax on their packs of $1.50, like it said above. I like how they can tax anything they want as long as it doesn't affect the people that THEY hang out with. Not like any of their close associates drink 40's.
I hated upstate NY. I lived there for a year and wanted to kill someone. Fucking cold, filled with crazy people.

And Spitzer is an asshole. Didn't he want a few other things pushed through? Like a tax to just enter the city or something? And I want to say he had a hand in the idea about taxing people for using the HOV lane on the LIE.

Hey, I've got an idea. How about we stop PAYING politicians salaries. Seriously. Do they need this money? They are usually rich when they get in to begin with. At least when you get as high as Senate or Congress.

Lets tax rich snobby people.

[Schnoogs]

Living in the UK, I have no sympathy for Americans when it comes to taxes. Come over here and see what real taxes are like.

Somebody has to pay for those who are paid not to work.

[Beelzebud]

I don't care what income bracket they are in. Speaking of which, which income bracket would you say receives a larger portion of the social services that are paid for with taxes?

Well we spend more on corporate welfare, than social welfare.

Ever see how much Monsanto gets every year? Those poor farmers.

[Heretic Machine]

Welcome to NY, where they tax the shit out of everything up here. Upstate is particularly bad as almost all industry has died or is dying and taxes are so high no one wants to move in to replaces those who left. Have an 8% to 8.5% sales tax on everything around here so its hard to buy anything expensive as you'll probably have $40 or more in tax.... Gah! Can't wait to go to BMT and get fucking out of this hell hole.

I was under the impression that American industry, in general, is dead... like, everywhere? Hence our shitty economy.

[jeffbax]

they could always regulate another wildly used substance...

[Oxonian]

Hey, I've got an idea. How about we stop PAYING politicians salaries. Seriously. Do they need this money? They are usually rich when they get in to begin with. At least when you get as high as Senate or Congress.
Many politicians are very wealthy, but many are not. For example, a quarter (http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/overview.asp?type=W&cycle=2005&filter=S&sort=A) of U.S. Senators have net worths estimated to be only a few hundred thousand dollars, and a couple have negative net worths.

It's not like they're paid a particularly lavish salary: a typical Senate backbencher makes about $170,000 a year, not all that lucrative for a well-educated and charming white man in his 50s or 60s. Cutting those salaries to zero would only save the Republic a few million, but it would create much greater incentives for politicians to take bribes.

[NationalKato]

Many politicians are very wealthy, but many are not. For example, a quarter (http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/overview.asp?type=W&cycle=2005&filter=S&sort=A) of U.S. Senators have net worths estimated to be only a few hundred thousand dollars, and a couple have negative net worths.

I've never seen a Congressman in need. I'll hold off on feeling sorry for that quarter.

[Dr.Finger]

I've never seen a Congressman in need. I'll hold off on feeling sorry for that quarter.
But once you start talking about state and local legislators things get much closer to you and me. I knew my state senator when I was a kid and he lived a basic middle class lifestyle.

[Macabee]

Before you all jump to conclusions about "taxing the poor" and whatnot, just realize that all he is doing is closing a couple of loopholes in the current taxes. He's bringing the taxes on cigarillos in line with that on cigarettes, and the taxes on malt liquor in line with that of beer. I am not a big fan of Spitzer's by any means, but let's be fair.

It might suck compared to the pre-tax price, but it's actually more fair. Sure, these are preferred products for a certain lower-income group, but they are not necessities, and alternative products are available.

Besides, if you can't afford the beer/malt, then make your own.

If you can't afford the cancer sticks, then do without.

[Oxonian]

I've never seen a Congressman in need.
Do you hang out with a lot of Congressmen?

I'm not suggesting you feel sorry for them, but rather that you be cautious about making them desperate for cash. For example, the poorest Congressman, Alcee Hastings, represents your state. His debts outweigh his total assets by at least $2 million. Back when he was a federal judge, he was impeached and removed for... wait for it... accepting a $150,000 bribe. Say what you will about millionaire politicians like John Kerry, but they are unlikely to throw their careers and good names away for a few bucks.

[mr. murphy]

Before you all jump to conclusions about "taxing the poor" and whatnot, just realize that all he is doing is closing a couple of loopholes in the current taxes. He's bringing the taxes on cigarillos in line with that on cigarettes, and the taxes on malt liquor in line with that of beer. I am not a big fan of Spitzer's by any means, but let's be fair.

It might suck compared to the pre-tax price, but it's actually more fair. Sure, these are preferred products for a certain lower-income group, but they are not necessities, and alternative products are available.

Besides, if you can't afford the beer/malt, then make your own.

If you can't afford the cancer sticks, then do without.

This is a good point, but I would rather say

If you need more tax money, tax the rich.

[Rifter]

Well we spend more on corporate welfare, than social welfare.

Actually, we spend more on social programs/social welfare.

[Karamazov]

I was under the impression that American industry, in general, is dead... like, everywhere? Hence our shitty economy.

Its not dead, we've just shifted from making things like plastic bullshit and t-shirts to heavy machinery, chemicals, electronics, etc. There was a really good show on NPR a couple months ago that talked about this in detail. They used a town in Alabama (I think it was Alabama) that had been the home of a sock factory for years, and now the sock company was wanting to move the factory overseas. The governor fought tooth and nail to keep the sock factory in the state, but eventually they lost and the sock factory moved to Bangladesh. Now in the absence of the sock factory new jobs have moved in such as a factory that builds premade steel bridges, and many other higher paying manufacturing jobs. The point of the program was to show that while stuff like textiles, toy factories, etc. were moving out of country many other higher tech industries were moving in to take their place.

[Wolvie]

I'm still waiting for a moron politician to tax the air.

[techromage]

If you don't droke or smink, you won't have a problem with the new taxes.

[MJBuddy]

I'm still waiting for a moron politician to tax the air.

If they could, then they would, and if they could, then they should.


The things you're *supposed* to tax are the things that people will continue to buy regardless of small increases in price. Inelastic goods have less dead weight loss if taxed than say, a car or a television.


That's why cigarettes are taxed so highly, and why they should be taxed so highly.

Edit: The fact that this person still wants to buy booze and cigars despite the increase PROVES that this is a good tax, sadly. It means he values the product higher than its cost, the producer can produce it much cheaper than his value, and the gov't can take advantage of that. This is sad, but not on the gov't level - it's sad that the person is such a booze hound.

[roboninja]

Actually, we spend more on social programs/social welfare.

Do you actually believe this?

[Rifter]

Do you actually believe this?

Do you actually believe we spend less than HALF of our budget on social programs?

[PathMaster]

Before you all jump to conclusions about "taxing the poor" and whatnot, just realize that all he is doing is closing a couple of loopholes in the current taxes. He's bringing the taxes on cigarillos in line with that on cigarettes, and the taxes on malt liquor in line with that of beer. I am not a big fan of Spitzer's by any means, but let's be fair.

It might suck compared to the pre-tax price, but it's actually more fair. Sure, these are preferred products for a certain lower-income group, but they are not necessities, and alternative products are available.

Besides, if you can't afford the beer/malt, then make your own.

If you can't afford the cancer sticks, then do without.
Correct. A local paper said it in a very succinct manor. He is closing tax loopholes, which corporations call increasing taxes.

Welcome to the forum.

[CoachCrazyMcScot]

As a former long time resident of Upstate NY, I can say with fervor "Thank God I live away from that myopic hole of a state".

Spitzer is a buffoon, and tries to bring his maverick technique into the political arena dominated by corporate lawyers as politicians and old school NYC Democrats.

He tried to take on Sheldon Silver and Joe Bruno, who have been in state's office for longer than I've lived, on issues that will plague the state as long as NYC is a part of New York.

He will be under a microscope until the end of his term, which means whatever he tries to do to bring change will only be chastised and ridiculed.

His platform that got him the Governor's seat will be his cross to bear.

[IrishWhiskey]

Before you all jump to conclusions about "taxing the poor" and whatnot, just realize that all he is doing is closing a couple of loopholes in the current taxes. He's bringing the taxes on cigarillos in line with that on cigarettes, and the taxes on malt liquor in line with that of beer. I am not a big fan of Spitzer's by any means, but let's be fair.

It might suck compared to the pre-tax price, but it's actually more fair. Sure, these are preferred products for a certain lower-income group, but they are not necessities, and alternative products are available.

Besides, if you can't afford the beer/malt, then make your own.

If you can't afford the cancer sticks, then do without.Look, he's doing this because he hates the poor and loves taxes. Don't come in here with your fancy-pants "logic" and "facts" trying to confuse my thinkin'.

[Blade]

When I saw this thread on the sidebar, I thought it could possibly be religion...

I actually hoped that it was. But no. :(

[Rock Bandit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLry3ABpV0

[51|RandoM]

Well we spend more on corporate welfare, than social welfare.

Ever see how much Monsanto gets every year? Those poor farmers.

Corporate welfare results in more products. Normal welfare results in more welfare recipients.

[mkelehan]

Tax prostitution.

[IrishWhiskey]

Corporate welfare results in more products. Normal welfare results in more welfare recipients.Also less starving and homeless children. But its true, unlike the massive airline and agriculture bailouts, those kids don't do squat for me.