Netherlands bracing for backlash over movie purporting to show Koran "desecration"

[SuicideKing]

As anyone who remembers the assasination of Tho Van Gogh, the huge outcry that produced in the Netherlands at the intolerance and suppresion of free speech that it represented, (He was stabbed for making a movie showcasing the plight of women living under Islamic rule, and in Islamic communities) that event led the the growth of an increasingly vocal anti-Islamic fundamentalist movement in the government.

Now, far-right MP Geert Wilders has made a movie about Islam entitled "Forbidden" which will be aired this week, either on television or on the Internet.

Trailer here:

qYS3PCBsJjE

Wilders is promising that the movie will include the Koran being desecrated, possibly burned and torn apart in order to show that Islam is a “source of inspiration for intolerance, murder and terror[ism].” (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/

0,,2243805,00.html)

He told Fox News that the movie will include “images and parts of real-time movies that really happen in the Netherlands and the U.K. and the Middle East, the intolerance of the Koran that is still alive and vivid today.” (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313741,00.html)

In response, young members of Hizb ut-Tahrir have spread pamphlets in several major cities in which they demand that people stop ‘insulting’ (http://www.haltlasterenvanislam.nl/content/view/56/43/) Islam.

Aparently, the Netherlands is now on high alert (http://worlddefensereview.com/esman012208.shtml): getting ready to deal with small scale civil war here and with massive riots in muslim countries.

As far as Wilders is concerned, he thinks all the resistance to him showing the movie is proof that Islam is fundamentally intolerant. (http://www.nisnews.nl/public/240108_1.htm)

"The fact that a not yet shown film of about 10 minutes could according to some lead to economic boycotts, riots and other horrible things says everything about the nature of Islam. Nothing about me. The cabinet acknowledges with its panicky reaction that Islam is not comparable to Christianity, but is a unique ideology. And this ideology thus demands a separate, unique approach. The Koran film has thus already demonstrated its usefulness."

So what do you all think about this. I say he should be allowed to make and show the movie, free speech being what it is. It'll be interesting to see what actually happens.

[Dirty Harry]

Man it really upsets me with islamic fundamentalists attack my people, People of Islam, Je moet je bek houden!.

[Johan]

This problem will solve itself demographically in Europe. Just give it a couple of generations.

[Ancalagon]

Well, personally I think they need to stop demanding to be treated differently. I'm not going to comment on the tenets of Islam, or its practices, but I will say if we can burn Bibles then we can burn Korans too.

Sorry guys, you arent special.

Je moet je bek houden!.

In Afrikaans that would be:

Jou moet jou bek hou.

Apparently afrikaans is a butchering of dutch.

[IrishWhiskey]

As far as Wilders is concerned, he thinks all the resistance to him showing the movie is proof that Islam is fundamentally intolerant. (http://www.nisnews.nl/public/240108_1.htm)

So what do you all think about this. I say he should be allowed to make and show the movie, free speech being what it is. It'll be interesting to see what actually happens.There aren't any free speech issues involved. He's allowed to make racist movies, and Muslims are allowed to protest it. I mean the same thing would happen here if someone did the same thing with a movie about Christianity, Judaism, Islam or Scientology. People would be outraged and Pat Robertson/ADL/Clerics/Tom Cruise's lawyers would descend on his ass like a firestorm.

He's a far-right, anti-immigrant, pro-Dutch Nationalism, anti-Muslim politician, who had tried to outlaw the Koran. So I guess he has a limited understanding of free speech.

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders)
"Take a walk down the street and see where this is going. You no longer feel like you are living in your own country. There is a battle going on and we have to defend ourselves. Before you know it there will be more mosques than churches!" [10]

Later, Wilders suggested that Muslims should 'tear out half of the Koran if they wished to stay in the Netherlands' because it contained 'terrible things' and that Muhammad would 'in these days be hunted down as a terrorist'. These statements caused strong reactions in Muslim countries such as Tunisia, Morocco, and Saudi Arabia. [11]

On 8 August 2007, Wilders opined in a letter [12] to the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant that the Koran, which he called a "fascist book", should be outlawed in the Netherlands, like Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. [13] He stated that: "The book incites hatred and killing and therefore has no place in our legal order." [14]

[Karamazov]

Muslims are allowed to protest it

Certainly. But not when protesting turns into riots.

[51|RandoM]

Almost makes you look forward to the point in the future when the middle east oil dries up. The fundamentalists will be able to go back to a life of purity without outside interference because nobody will give a shit about what happens there as long is it doesn't happen to Israel.

...and yeah, I know that Islam is practiced in many other countries, not just those that make up the Middle East.

[SuicideKing]

There aren't any free speech issues involved. He's allowed to make racist movies, and Muslims are allowed to protest it.

Umm...... You seem to be missing the point Irish, it's not a matter of anyone "protesting," it's a matter of the Dutch government telling all their overseas embassies to be ready to evacuate quickly, a case of the film-maker having to be guarded at all times, and told by the government to stay hidden, private businesses fearing riots and carnage etc...

You honestly think the only response will be some peaceful picketing?

Where were you when people got killed over some badly drawn cartoons, and a previous film-maker stabbed. :rolleyes:

[Varsity]

Islam is a “source of inspiration for intolerance, murder and terror[ism].”

So are you.

[IrishWhiskey]

Umm...... You seem to be missing the point Irish, it's not a matter of anyone "protesting," it's a matter of the Dutch government telling all their overseas embassies to be ready to evacuate quickly, a case of the film-maker having to be guarded at all times, and told by the government to stay hidden, private businesses fearing riots and carnage etc...

You honestly think the only response will be some peaceful picketing?In the Netherlands? Probably.

Is it really a surprise or revelation to anyone that if you try to outlaw the Koran, compare Muhammad to a terrorist and Hitler, and make a movie in which the Koran is torn up, that Saudi Arabia and Iran might respond excessively? I mean they blow up (literally and figuratively) over stupid things all the time, let alone something intentionally designed to provoke.

This guys point is to use Middle Eastern extremism to punish and persecute (including deporting and banning the faith of) citizens of his own country, while gaining celebrity for himself. The fact that Iran won't have a good reaction to this is not something that needs to be experimentally verified.

Of course he still has the right to do it, I don't argue that. Although he himself is only a fan of fee speech when it suits him. But it is a douchebag move, done for all the wrong reasons.

[iHap]

So does this mean I can riot about people ripping up The Bible?

[Kelegacy]

Sounds like someone is doing this just to stir up trouble. It's like a kid slapping a wasp nest with a stick. C'mon.

In reality, I fear all zealots. Passion is a wonderful thing, but when it creates violence...

The day man created religion is the day man doomed the world.

[biosc1]

Well, personally I think they need to stop demanding to be treated differently. I'm not going to comment on the tenets of Islam, or its practices, but I will say if we can burn Bibles then we can burn Korans too.


I truly wonder what the reception of such an act would be? I'm sure you'd get just as many people upset. The reaction will not be violent, but there would certainly be an uproar.

[CoachCrazyMcScot]

Almost makes you look forward to the point in the future when the middle east oil dries up.

Are we going to be around by then?

There are researchers who also say that under Siberia is another ocean of oil. Will Russia pickup where the Middle East left off?

By then will we have extremist East Orthodox? (Orthodoxen?)

[Johan]

I truly wonder what the reception of such an act would be? I'm sure you'd get just as many people upset. The reaction may not be violent, but there would certainly be an uproar.

Piss Christ. (http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/502.html)

Virgin dung. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/459846.stm)

"May" not be violence? Give me a break. WILL not be violence. Period.

As I said, this problem will correct itself with time and demographics. Europe won't have this problem forever.

Sharia law making inroads in Europe. (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/vidino-stakelbeck200312030840.asp)

Western demographics. (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760)

Most people reading this have strong stomachs, so let me lay it out as baldly as I can: Much of what we loosely call the Western world will not survive this century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most Western European countries. There'll probably still be a geographical area on the map marked as Italy or the Netherlands--probably--just as in Istanbul there's still a building called St. Sophia's Cathedral. But it's not a cathedral; it's merely a designation for a piece of real estate. Likewise, Italy and the Netherlands will merely be designations for real estate.The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birthrate to sustain it.

You all should be THANKING people who have larger families, because the vacuum in the historically Judeo-Christian West is being filled, and it's NOT being filled by people whose values are your own (unless you like to kill people over cartoons, subjugate women to beatings from male relatives, and censor much of art, media, and creativity). If you think you have it difficult in a political environment with conservative Christians, you should introduce yourself to conservative Islamic law (sharia). Drop those licenses, ladies...you can no longer drive, nor leave the home without a male relative.

[Rifter]

I truly wonder what the reception of such an act would be? I'm sure you'd get just as many people upset. The reaction may not be violent, but there would certainly be an uproar.

That is the fundamental difference between Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists. Christians would bitch and moan and talk tough... the Islamists will kill you, or attempt to.

Hell, it is not like we can't look back in our history, and see that Islamic nations have had to be pushed back into their deserts before.

[SuicideKing]

In the Netherlands? Probably.


I think that shows unfounded optimism on your part, but we shall see. The Netherlands was where Theo Van Gogh was stabbed, where honor killings happen fairly frequently, and where there was indeed rioting over the editorial cartoons.

[IrishWhiskey]

That is the fundamental difference between Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists. Christians would bitch and moan and talk tough... the Islamists will kill you, or attempt to.Islamists where? Here? The Netherlands? Or in the violent third world dictatorships in the Middle East? Because that seems like an important difference too.
Hell, it is not like we can't look back in our history, and see that Islamic nations have had to be pushed back into their deserts before.Or times they've had to do that with our raping and pillaging hordes. I don't think that justifies their violence.

[SuicideKing]

Islamists where? Here? The Netherlands? Or in the violent third world dictatorships in the Middle East? Because that seems like an important difference too.

Did you miss my post right above yours?

[Karamazov]

Islamists where? Here? The Netherlands? Or the third world dictatorships in the Middle East? Because that seems like an important difference too.

Theo Van Gogh was killed in the Netherlands by a muslim who was born in the Netherlands.

[IrishWhiskey]

Did you miss my post right above yours?No, my response was posted just after yours, so while I was writing it, I couldn't see yours. Thats happens a lot here, you'd think you might be used to that.
Theo Van Gogh was killed in the Netherlands by a muslim who was born in the Netherlands.So is that a good reason for this guy to ban a religion and deport all Muslims? To use Iranian violence as leverage against the millions of peaceful Dutch Muslims? Because of a psycho?

[Sl1pstream]

Shit is going to hit the fan with this one. That's almost next door too.

[Karamazov]

So is that a good reason for this guy to ban a religion and deport all Muslims? To use Iranian violence as leverage against the millions of peaceful Dutch Muslims? Because of a psycho?

Did I ever say that? I was trying to point out to you that violent Islamic extremism is not a strictly middle east problem, which from your posts you seem to think is the case.

[Johan]

Did I ever say that? I was trying to point out to you that violent Islamic extremism is not a strictly middle east problem, which from your posts you seem to think is the case.

It's his modu operandi. See the best in Islam, the worst in Christianity.

[bKangy]

You all should be THANKING people who have larger families, because the vacuum in the historically Judeo-Christian West is being filled, and it's NOT being filled by people whose values are your own (unless you like to kill people over cartoons, subjugate women to beatings from male relatives, and censor much of art, media, and creativity). If you think you have it difficult in a political environment with conservative Christians, you should introduce yourself to conservative Islamic law (sharia). Drop those licenses, ladies...you can no longer drive, nor leave the home without a male relative.

It's all part of the cycle. Immigrants enter UK with high held beliefs and radical changes in culture. Short time later, end up mingled in with the locals with their customs surviving on as vague concessions in British culture long forgotten after a generation or two dies off. We'll be here in a hundred years and another 500 after that. It's already starting with the Muslim youth, they're either radicalising or becoming ridiculously urban British.

We did it to the Romans, we did it to the Saxons, we did it to the Vikings, we did it to the French and the influx of Muslims and Eastern Europeans are next.

[IrishWhiskey]

Did I ever say that? I was trying to point out to you that violent Islamic extremism is not a strictly middle east problem, which from your posts you seem to think is the case.I know you didn't say that, but this guy did, and almost no one seems critical of that. I think that this guy, and a number of others on this forum, try to equate the Muslims in Europe and America with those in Iran, and say that the religion itself is the problem and is inherently violent. I think the reason there is little to no major religious violence in our country, its because we are a peaceful democracy built on tolerance, and that if we were a violent dictatorship, there would be more of that, from every sect (except maybe the Quakers). And that this guy is a totalitarian bigot trying to create violence so as to persecute a whole group, and yet thats not raising many objections.

It's his modu operandi. See the best in Islam, the worst in Christianity.So, by distinguishing Western Muslims from violent Middle Eastern ones, I see the best in Islam, and see the worst in Christianity by _________? Promoting religious tolerance instead of selective religious tolerance? Condemning violence and extremism?

[Karamazov]

I know you didn't say that, but this guy did, and almost no one seems critical of that.
I don't necessarily agree with the man, but he does have a right to say what he wants.

I think that this guy, and a number of others on this forum, try to equate the Muslims in Europe and America with those in Iran, and say that the religion itself is the problem and is inherently violent.
Let me ask you this, when you have someone murdered over a film, and riots, then is there that much of a difference?

I think the reason there is little to no major religious violence in our country, its because we are a peaceful democracy built on tolerance, and that if we were a violent dictatorship,
Then how do you explain the riots over the cartoons in Europe?

there would be more of that, from every sect (except maybe the Quakers). And that this guy is a totalitarian bigot trying to create violence so as to persecute a whole group, and yet thats not raising many objections.
This is irrelevant. Like I said, he can do whatever he wants, and the muslims can (peacefully) protest as much as they want. Freedom of speech is for all speech, not just what you agree with.

[IrishWhiskey]

I don't necessarily agree with the man, but he does have a right to say what he wants.

This is irrelevant. Like I said, he can do whatever he wants, and the muslims can (peacefully) protest as much as they want. Freedom of speech is for all speech, not just what you agree with.I already said I agreed with that. Just that it doesn't change the fact he's a douchebag. A politician in our country has the right to rip up the Bible, compare Jesus to Hitler and try and ban Christianity too, it doesn't mean he's not an intolerant, totalitarian asshole.


Then how do you explain the riots over the cartoons in Europe? I certainly condemn them as stupid and unacceptable, but that doesn't mean I want to equate them with terrorists and paint a broad brush to persecute all Muslims there or elsewhere.

[Lord_Don]

Johan, muslims can breed all they want. As bKangy said, if they're being brought up in Western society there's a greater chance they'll have access to information they may not get in the middle-east.

I've already seen sites cropping up on the interwebs of ex-muslim youth rejecting the intolerance of their parent's beliefs.

[president_fred]

It's already starting with the Muslim youth, they're either radicalising or becoming ridiculously urban British.

We did it to the Romans, we did it to the Saxons, we did it to the Vikings, we did it to the French and the influx of Muslims and Eastern Europeans are next.
Most of the my Muslim friends in the UK are more into contemporary urban British culture than anybody else. It's funny but I see the same thing here in Sweden (I have spent almost as much time in both.) My Muslim friends here listen more contemporary music, watch more football and Ice Hockey, drink as much beer, date as much, have equivalent educations etc. And we are only talking 2nd and 3rd generations. Their parents haven't integrated as much but it is not a problem. If anyone here is trying to argue two or three further generations down the road we are suddenly going to be overrun by radicals stealing our alabaster women well I would suggest getting to know these people. Is there a minority that gives majority a bad name? Certainly, but that same minority exists here most of the time we call them criminals.

[sparkfizt]

I say go for it...

If anything it serves as an interesting test as to what it will incite with the radicals and give an indication how many radicals they have.... I want nothing more than this to be a non-event but given what the cartoons incited, I'm inclined to believe this will be worse. I don't want anyone hurt or property destroyed but I'm genuinely curious as to the results...

[Johan]

Johan, muslims can breed all they want. As bKangy said, if they're being brought up in Western society there's a greater chance they'll have access to information they may not get in the middle-east.

Apparently you are oblivious to the fact that it's the CHILDREN of Muslims in Europe...kids born and bred in European countries, who are the most intransigent in their fundamentalist, violent beliefs.

The radicalization of Muslim youth in European societies. (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:bzrj1aWcHDMJ:www.cpt-mi.org/pdf/IslamicExtremism_EuropeMoniquet.pdf+European+musli m+youth+violence&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us)

You're not going to "win" radical Muslims over with your progressive ideas and tolerance. It's your progressive ideas and tolerance which they hate.

[Ancalagon]

Frankly, I have no problem with Muslim people wanting to be Muslim.

BUT, I think all countries in Europe should make one thing clear. We are Western countries. You are immigrants. If you want to immigrate, thats fine, as long as you contribute to society (and dont deprive natives of employment or other opportunities). In exchange, you have to recognize the absolute authority that your adopted country has over you. You follow its laws, you support it above all else. I tire of hearing of radical Muslims, living in the UK, living off benefits, citing other peoples hatred towards Britain? Hello? Why arent these people deported?

It probably sounds like a very fascist belief. But all I'm really saying is that you should be free to believe what you want to believe, but the laws of the country in which you reside are more important than your beliefs. No Sharia law, not now, not ever. Suggest that your religion is more important than your country and you are out the door. Sorry, thats just the way it is. And if you dont like it you can go back home.

[IrishWhiskey]

If you want to immigrate, thats fine, as long as you contribute to society (and dont deprive natives of employment or other opportunities). In exchange, you have to recognize the absolute authority that your adopted country has over you. You follow its laws, you support it above all else. I tire of hearing of radical Muslims, living in the UK, living off benefits, citing other peoples hatred towards Britain? Hello? Why arent these people deported?

It probably sounds like a very fascist belief. But all I'm really saying is that you should be free to believe what you want to believe, but the laws of the country in which you reside are more important than your beliefs. Those two sections are very different.

The second one I can agree with, in the sense that only you should be free to believe what you want, you still have to obey the law. Violence, discrimination and law-breaking aren't okay, no matter what your faith.

The first one...I wonder if you realize how scary that is. "dont deprive natives of employment or other opportunities" means that unless they are second class citizens who aren't allowed certain opportunities desired by others, they aren't welcome in the country. At best second class citizens, at worst, institutionalized discrimination and a servant class (work these menial jobs and don't aspire any higher or get kicked out). The second part about following and supporting the government above all else... thats basically the death of democracy. How can we ask incoming immigrants to adopt democratic values and tolerance, but they aren't permitted free speech to criticize? Incitement to violence is one thing, but criticizing the government or even dearly held beliefs is another. You don't make people less fundamentalist by acting like Iran.

[shadow_runner777]

All I know is that I would be interested to see that movie. I'm curious as to whether they will actually make logical conclusions, or just flame the crap out of islam (very easy to do nowadays, with the extremists and all)

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Here is how I feel about Islam:

I don't have a problem with Muslims. I have a problem with Sharia and Jihad. I will crush them. If you feel that you can still be a Muslim without Sharia and Jihad, remain a Muslim and remain happy with your beliefs and choices. If you do not, prepare to be crushed.

[KingGorilla]

Apparently you are oblivious to the fact that it's the CHILDREN of Muslims in Europe...kids born and bred in European countries, who are the most intransigent in their fundamentalist, violent beliefs.
The radicalization of Muslim youth in European societies. (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:bzrj1aWcHDMJ:www.cpt-mi.org/pdf/IslamicExtremism_EuropeMoniquet.pdf+European+musli m+youth+violence&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us)
You're not going to "win" radical Muslims over with your progressive ideas and tolerance. It's your progressive ideas and tolerance which they hate.

The same is true of fundamentalist churches here in the states. We have our own Churches which support terrorism and teach it to their children. The same is also true of the Black Panther movement. Young, confused, and pissed off males lashing out. So far all I am seeing is that you have proven that muslim males are just as prone to stupidity as the rest of us.

[menage]

I live in the Netherlands. And Wilders is an absolute lunatic who can only get a point across by yelliing some offensive shit. The guy has no arguments, only addresses fears of the common man (without having solutions) and cannot debate because once his point is made it's not open for discussion.

[Ancalagon]

Those two sections are very different.

The second one I can agree with, in the sense that only you should be free to believe what you want, you still have to obey the law. Violence, discrimination and law-breaking aren't okay, no matter what your faith.

The first one...I wonder if you realize how scary that is. "dont deprive natives of employment or other opportunities" means that unless they are second class citizens who aren't allowed certain opportunities desired by others, they aren't welcome in the country. At best second class citizens, at worst, institutionalized discrimination and a servant class (work these menial jobs and don't aspire any higher or get kicked out). The second part about following and supporting the government above all else... thats basically the death of democracy. How can we ask incoming immigrants to adopt democratic values and tolerance, but they aren't permitted free speech to criticize? Incitement to violence is one thing, but criticizing the government or even dearly held beliefs is another. You don't make people less fundamentalist by acting like Iran.

Well, I didnt quite mean it like that. What I meant was, the immigration controls make sure to let only a certain number of people. As much as we would like to help everybody and have the whole world living in London, its just not feasible. Letting too many people into a country isnt fair on its current residents, whether they have lived there for 15 generations or one.

When you are in the country, there should be discrimination at all, that I agree with. No foreigner should be discriminated against for any reason - if we let you into the country, you are one of us.

I think there needs to be a fine balance between the free speech accorded to everyone, and the good of the nation. Like, I dont think any nation should tolerate hate speech. In a lot of countries its a crime to deny the holocaust, and I dont see why it shouldnt be a crime to go around say, "The west is bad, bomb the west, america sucks, kill all the westerners etc", and then go claim benefits. Hello? Something is wrong here.

If a minority comes and says, "I dont agree with this policy because it discriminates against my people." Then we can have a look, do all the usual political stuff.

I think its important to make the distinction between hate speec that incites violence, which I see a lot of Muslim leaders in Britain doing and very seldom getting in trouble for, and criticism of the government, which should always be allowed without exception.

[ShivaX]

Well, I didnt quite mean it like that. What I meant was, the immigration controls make sure to let only a certain number of people. As much as we would like to help everybody and have the whole world living in London, its just not feasible. Letting too many people into a country isnt fair on its current residents, whether they have lived there for 15 generations or one.

Say that in America and you're a horrible racist.

Europe is the pinnacle of perfection to some people here, but when you point out how they handle immigration then suddenly thats completely wrong. We should adopt all their socialist institutions and allow everyone into the country that can sneak in - and then pay for those people's benefits.

[Ancalagon]

Say that in America and you're a horrible racist.

Europe is the pinnacle of perfection to some people here, but when you point out how they handle immigration then suddenly thats completely wrong. We should adopt all their socialist institutions and allow everyone into the country that can sneak in - and then pay for those people's benefits.

I thought America was much tighter to get into than Europe?

the papers here basically seem to say that the UK government recognizes that they let too many people in, and want to tighten up immigration. Only thing is, being loosely part of the EU means they arent legally allowed to deny EU residents access.

There was a case where an italian guy murdered a british girl. When he was released from a british prison, he should have been deported (the law says he should have been). But officials said if he was deported, he would have no one back home in italy. So because he would be lonely, he should stay in the UK where he can rape and kill.

I'm all for stopping senseless violence and discrimination. but come on, thats just discriminating against law abiding citizens.