Hamas - At it again [Archive]

torrefaction

01-21-2008, 02:15 PM

So, the Gaza is entirely without fuel. Israel has a blockade up due to constant rocket attacks from Gaza. Now, Gaza has had to shut down it's power plant. Why stop firing rockets at Israel when the welfare of your people is on the line? These guys are straight up bastards.

"We will not raise the white flag and we will not surrender," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told the London-based independent Quds Press web news agency.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7198798.stm

[GH-SC]Ryctor

01-21-2008, 02:17 PM

Fuck'em. Israel should just use some small tactical nukes and be done with it all.

GrinR

01-21-2008, 02:17 PM

No one is surprised. Appeasement doesn't work.

Johan

01-21-2008, 02:50 PM

Honestly, I've never understood why a nation which is attacked on a daily basis (Israel) would allow supplies to be transported through its territory to the territory of those who are daily trying to kill them (Hamas/PLO/etc.).

That one has me confused. Close the borders and leave them to fend for themselves. If they stop attacking, open the borders back up!

Tel Prydain

01-21-2008, 02:56 PM

Israel is a hard position... allow supplies to go to people who want nothing more then to fire rockets at you, or be considered a monster in the eyes of the international comunity

cp#

01-21-2008, 02:56 PM

Ryctor;1214509']Fuck'em. Israel should just use some small tactical nukes and be done with it all.

Sounds like a great idea to me! No consequences or anything!

Ultima Thulian

01-21-2008, 03:02 PM

I love the thread title. "Hamas - At it again." Oh that crazy Hamas, what hijinks will you get into next? :D Better stop buying those ACME products Hamas, they ain't too hot! :D

Seriously though, surprising? No warrior is more steadfast than the one fighting for the "holy" cause.

[GH-SC]Ryctor

01-21-2008, 03:06 PM

Sounds like a great idea to me! No consequences or anything!

Consequences probably wouldn't be much much worse than what Israel is already dealing with..... :rolleyes:

DangerousDaze

01-21-2008, 03:07 PM

I don't want to come over all heavy or anything but this conflict didn't just begin yesterday you know. That region is covered only in shades of grey.

torrefaction

01-21-2008, 03:30 PM

I don't want to come over all heavy or anything but this conflict didn't just begin yesterday you know. That region is covered only in shades of grey.

I think we're all well aware of that. But firing rockets consistently at civilians is not "shades of grey". How the situation got there, on the other hand, is very much grey.

Personally, I blame the UN.

Johan

01-21-2008, 03:34 PM

Personally, I blame the UN.

I spent the first 18 years of my life around/nearby the UN on a weekly basis (no, I'm not exaggerating.). Even as a kid, I could tell the place was full of a bunch of shithead windbags.

IrishWhiskey

01-21-2008, 03:35 PM

I think we're all well aware of that. But firing rockets consistently at civilians is not "shades of grey". How the situation got there, on the other hand, is very much grey.

Personally, I blame the UN.While Hamas are clearly bastards who are endangering the Palestinian and Israeli people with their senseless violence, its worth pointing out that the civilian killing rockets aren't a one-way street.

torrefaction

01-21-2008, 03:37 PM

While Hamas are clearly bastards who are endangering the Palestinian and Israeli people with their senseless violence, its worth pointing out that the civilian killing rockets aren't a one-way street.

Well, turns out the story is more of the Palestinians trying to spin a crisis than anything. Apparently some civilians have been putting themselves in the line of fire to keep supplying the Strip with power. Seventy percent of it.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3496729,00.html

No, they're not. But as of the past couple years, Israel has been more about retaliation when attacks occur than anything else. There HAS been a lot of groundway made, and if Hamas wasn't around, it almost feels like Abbas and Olmert are so sick of the whole damn thing that they could broker a deal.

GrinR

01-21-2008, 03:48 PM

Making the distinction between "Palestinians" and the Junta-du-jour is something I don't really see the point of. Hamas, PLO, Fatah, whatever. The "Palestinian people" have terrorist scum criminals as their leadership, and not in a removed, faraway sense - they are cheek-to-cheek with them.

I agree there are shades of grey, which is why I support the wall-building and targeted assassinations of the "Palestinian" leadership. I think the Palestinians need to cut each others throats until there is no one left to fight, or who wants to fight. Then, there will be peace.

DangerousDaze

01-21-2008, 03:53 PM

How the situation got there, on the other hand, is very much grey.

And you don't think that has any bearing on what's going on today? Hamas and Fatah used to have a cease-fire with Isreal, you know? It was called off after an Israeli gunboat shelled a Gaza beach a couple of years back. They killed 7 and wounded 20. Did I mention these were people just playing in the sand and enjoying the sun and the sea?

I'm not trying to defend one side or the other. I'm just pointing out that some of the replies on this thread come across as incredibly crass.

IrishWhiskey

01-21-2008, 03:55 PM

I think the Palestinians need to cut each others throats until there is no one left to fight, or who wants to fight. Then, there will be peace.True. The best path to peace is to focus a society on murdering one-another. The world is made up of good and bad people, and once you kill all the bad people in an area, it will be happy peaceful and safe, with no long-term repercussions.

I've seen this argument about Iraq being made by major media and political figures. That if you just kill every 'bad-guy' currently in Iraq, there will be peace. Like its a no-respawn team-deathmatch game.

Johan

01-21-2008, 03:57 PM

It was called off after an Israeli gunboat shelled a Gaza beach a couple of years back. They killed 7 and wounded 20. Did I mention these were people just playing in the sand and enjoying the sun and the sea?

Yeah...right. See the links below.

I call bullshit. (http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp)

You should at least know that your "opinion" is not shared by all. (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1129)

Hamas used the incident as a pretext to return to indiscriminately bombing civilians...when it is quite likely it was Hamas explosives that blew up and killed THEIR OWN PEOPLE. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150035838991&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Of course, it's popular to hate Jews. (http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=808)

I'm not trying to defend one side or the other.

Really? :rolleyes:

Ultima Thulian

01-21-2008, 04:00 PM

I demand peer reviewed journals, a pie chart, and at least four personal anecdotes before I am to believe you.

Johan

01-21-2008, 04:02 PM

I demand peer reviewed journals, a pie chart, and at least four personal anecdotes before I am to believe you.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/75/09/23500975.jpg

http://new-brunswick.net/Saint_John/pics1/toilet.jpg

GrinR

01-21-2008, 04:02 PM

True. The best path to peace is to focus a society on murdering one-another. The world is made up of good and bad people, and once you kill all the bad people in an area, it will be happy peaceful and safe, with no long-term repercussions.

I've seen this argument about Iraq being made by major media and political figures. That if you just kill every 'bad-guy' currently in Iraq, there will be peace. Like its a no-respawn team-deathmatch game.

I never said anything like that. I said that the people in that region need to sort themselves out. If that comes in the form of peace and love - awesome. If it comes in the form of a bloodbath - that's terrible, but I can still see hope there.

Iraq is not that different in this respect. I believe the Iraqis need to govern themselves, given an opportunity to do so. Thankfully, our government did the right thing and gave them that opportunity. If I thought we'd have enough support to do the same thing for Palestine - I'd support that as well.

Virtuoso

01-21-2008, 04:09 PM

Ryctor;1214509']Fuck'em. Israel should just use some small tactical nukes and be done with it all.

It makes me sad I share a state with you. Ignorant douchebags like you give this place a bad name.

IrishWhiskey

01-21-2008, 04:09 PM

I never said anything like that. I said that the people in that region need to sort themselves out. If that comes in the form of peace and love - awesome. If it comes in the form of a bloodbath - that's terrible, but I can still see hope there.Uh, I think you might be able to see why I'm confused about how:

"I said that the people in that region need to sort themselves out. If that comes in the form of peace and love - awesome. If it comes in the form of a bloodbath - that's terrible"

somehow equals

"I think the Palestinians need to cut each others throats until there is no one left to fight, or who wants to fight. Then, there will be peace."

Johan

01-21-2008, 04:12 PM

...give this place a bad name.

Do you know why Texas isn't a part of Mexico?

Because Oklahoma sucks.

:D

DangerousDaze

01-21-2008, 04:13 PM

Yeah...right. See the links below.

I call bullshit. (http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Gaza_Beach_Libel.asp)

You should at least know that your "opinion" is not shared by all. (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1129)

Hamas used the incident as a pretext to return to indiscriminately bombing civilians...when it is quite likely it was Hamas explosives that blew up and killed THEIR OWN PEOPLE. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150035838991&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Of course, it's popular to hate Jews. (http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=808)

Really? :rolleyes:

Ok, it's not grey at all. You win. It's just the nasty Muslims. I forgot who's virtual country I was posting in. Sorry.

Virtuoso

01-21-2008, 04:14 PM

Do you know why Texas isn't a part of Mexico?

Because Oklahoma sucks.

:D

Blah blah blah blah football team blah blah blah.

Johan

01-21-2008, 04:19 PM

Ok, it's not grey at all. You win.

May I remind you of your post?

Hamas and Fatah used to have a cease-fire with Isreal, you know? It was called off after an Israeli gunboat shelled a Gaza beach a couple of years back. They killed 7 and wounded 20. Did I mention these were people just playing in the sand and enjoying the sun and the sea?

I'm not seeing too terribly much GREY in there! Children, frolicking in the ocean and playing on the sand...KILLED BY EVIL ISRAELIS!

I suppose you've never heard of the weapons that Hamas smuggles in on speed boats and stashes under the sand, eh? :rolleyes:

You might want to put a little more grey in your words if you'd like to wear the cloak/mantle of fairness and objectivity.

Blah blah blah blah football team blah blah blah.

I live in SC...I was kidding!

jP_71FZX-Hc

GrinR

01-21-2008, 04:21 PM

Uh, I think you might be able to see why I'm confused about how:

"I said that the people in that region need to sort themselves out. If that comes in the form of peace and love - awesome. If it comes in the form of a bloodbath - that's terrible"

somehow equals

"I think the Palestinians need to cut each others throats until there is no one left to fight, or who wants to fight. Then, there will be peace."

I can see that. I did not mention the lifetime of failed peace negotiation that has made the futility of negotiation as close to scientifically proven as I care to consider. The ruling thugs of Palestine have an extremely functional business model doing precisely what they're doing. Frankly, the 100% success of their proposals would result in a collapse of their economic model.

In other words, if every Israelite left Israel almost everything they left would be destroyed shortly after and you'd have a complete Palestinian state run by extortionist thugs who know no other model of behavior. The money from Iran (and other anti-Jew organizations) would dry up, and the next beast up the chain would take over. Likely Iran's AlQud, as in Iraq.

The Palestinian people, the ones not directly part of the ruling junta, will be in just as fucked a position as they were before only with less hope for any chance at change.

Your confusion stems from a belief that peace can come without a bloodbath, a belief I no longer share.

Johan

01-21-2008, 04:22 PM

In other words, if every Israelite left Israel almost everything they left would be destroyed shortly after and you'd have a complete Palestinian state run by extortionist thugs who know no other model of behavior.

That's exactly what happened in Gaza when Israel pulled out...multi-million dollar Israeli agricultural facilities that could have been quite useful for the Gazans were destroyed by rampaging loons.

DangerousDaze

01-21-2008, 04:23 PM

Ok, I admit my language was pretty crass too, but it was merely intended to balance the shit about nuking Gaza. I probably chose a bad example and worded it poorly, but that situation over there is fucked up for all concerned.

GrinR

01-21-2008, 04:28 PM

That's exactly what happened in Gaza when Israel pulled out...multi-million dollar Israeli agricultural facilities that could have been quite useful for the Gazans were destroyed by rampaging loons.

The mistake is thinking that was an accident or a loss of control. No, it was a plan.

Without being a victim, they cannot sustain payments to their gunmen. The entire model is based on being a victim, without which there is no other economy.

Serapth

01-21-2008, 04:30 PM

Johan

01-21-2008, 04:32 PM

I wonder if many of you had the same attitude towards the Irish in the 80s? Somehow I doubt it.

Life is so much simpler when you just realize that everyone's an asshole. The only variation is degree.

Esquilax1138

01-21-2008, 04:43 PM

Is it too late to move Isreal out of the middle east? The place is a shithole. I think we could easily move all of Isreal to a nice safe place, say Vancouver Island, they can have the whole thing, and bring their holy places with them like the gold temple thing and the wall, we'll just pack it up stone by stone and relocate them some place less crazy. Sure the muslims won't like them taking the holy sites, but still have Mecca so they can STFU.

Other than one side leaving, it's just going to fester untill it explodes, and possibly drags in other countries around the world. That or the Isrealis will get sick of the muslims and do a "Final Solution' to Gaza. It's pretty much the Warsaw ghetto now anyways.

Ultima Thulian

01-21-2008, 04:43 PM

Life is so much simpler when you just realize that everyone's an asshole. The only variation is degree.

I demand peer re...

Bah, who am I kidding. I agree 100% and no need to bring up that ole Chestnut?

torrefaction

01-21-2008, 04:53 PM

People are seriously quick to hate on Palestinians and resolve Isreal of all guilt. The parallels to the IRA aren't lost on me, although in the Palestinians case... they have even more reason to be pissed.

I wonder if many of you had the same attitude towards the Irish in the 80s? Somehow I doubt it.

I've never really had too much sympathy for the IRA considering their methods. I was very young during that whole thing, so things seemed very black and white to me.

Don't blow up innocent people is a mantra I grew up with.

That being said, I am shamefully ignorant of the political causes of that war. As far as I know, one side is angry that the other isn't the same kind of Christian they are. I'm reading the wiki now, so no posts about educating myself please, unless you're summarizing what appears to be a long and painful conflict for me. In that case, I appreciate it very much!

Serapth

01-21-2008, 04:58 PM

I've never really had too much sympathy for the IRA considering their methods. I was very young during that whole thing, so things seemed very black and white to me.

Don't blow up innocent people is a mantra I grew up with.

That being said, I am shamefully ignorant of the political causes of that war. As far as I know, one side is angry that the other isn't the same kind of Christian they are. I'm reading the wiki now, so no posts about educating myself please, unless you're summarizing what appears to be a long and painful conflict for me. In that case, I appreciate it very much!

I think you will find in your research that the parallels between the IRA and Hamas are pretty shocking, and that in the end, religion wasnt so large a factor. Also, if your sources are decent, I think you will find the conflict was by no means black and white, with the British responsible for a great share of douchebaggery aswell.

torrefaction

01-21-2008, 05:01 PM

I think you will find in your research that the parallels between the IRA and Hamas are pretty shocking, and that in the end, religion wasnt so large a factor. Also, if your sources are decent, I think you will find the conflict was by no means black and white, with the British responsible for a great share of douchebaggery aswell.

Well I'll be damned if this isn't confusing as hell. At least there's only one Hamas.

*Edit*

Okay. So Britain arbitrarily split Ireland up, and pretty much took their land? I think I'm starting to see what your saying here. It seems pretty different to me in that a civil war with it's own people seems to be the main reason for all the infighting.

This is complicated, and I'm tired. I'm going home.

Virtuoso

01-21-2008, 05:02 PM

Lord_Don

01-21-2008, 05:03 PM

I hate sounding all hippy-go-peace-y but violence begets more violence. "But it's justified because this side did this and this and it was really horrible!"

Guess what, it's all fucking horrible for both sides. People need to forget past bullshit and start thinking about the future. I hope in the future people can rise above it but I'm enough of a realist to realize it's sadly unlikely to happen any time soon.

Serapth

01-21-2008, 05:08 PM

India anybody?

All countries with colonies ( England, Holland, France, etc... ) all have a pile of skeletons in their closets. Alot of the shit going on in the middle east right now, is directly resulting from post WW2 colonialism dying off.

Dag-Sabot

01-21-2008, 05:18 PM

Just a crazy idea: Why not spend your energy in blockading the arms shipments instead? Those 122mm rockets arent something you hide in your carry on luggage. Cutting utilities seems quite heavy handed.

Tel Prydain

01-21-2008, 05:24 PM

Beelzebud

01-21-2008, 05:25 PM

Wow, so much chest-thumping rage coming from the usual armchair quarterbacks, who think the answer to everything is to just nuke the bad guys into submission.

Tel Prydain

01-21-2008, 05:28 PM

Wow, so much chest-thumping rage coming from the usual armchair quarterbacks, who think the answer to everything is to just nuke the bad guys into submission.

Wow, so many comments that add nothing to the conversation from the usual armchair critics that that they are superior to the armchair quarterbacks, even though everyone is just shitting out their insignificant opinions on a unimportant message board. :p

DangerousDaze

01-21-2008, 05:37 PM

Also, if your sources are decent, I think you will find the conflict was by no means black and white, with the British responsible for a great share of douchebaggery aswell.

Well my source is pretty decent on this one. It's me. The IRA bombed the shit out of the city in which I live (Manchester). I heard and felt the blast though thankfully I wasn't in the town centre at the time.

They also planted two bombs in rubbish bins in the centre of the town that I work (Warrington). They did this on the day before Mother's Day when they knew the place would be packed with parents and children buying presents for their mums. The first bomb panicked people into the path of the second one. Two young boys died.

There actually are many parallels. In both cases there are arseholes who use the cover of politics and religion to camouflage their desire to maim and kill for their own ends.

Serapth

01-21-2008, 05:40 PM

Well my source is pretty decent on this one. It's me. The IRA bombed the shit out of the city in which I live (Manchester). I heard and felt the blast though thankfully I wasn't in the town centre at the time.

They also planted two bombs in rubbish bins in the centre of the town that I work (Warrington). They did this on the day before Mother's Day when they knew the place would be packed with parents and children buying presents for their mums. The first bomb panicked people into the path of the second one. Two young boys died.

There actually are many parallels. In both cases there are arseholes who use the cover of politics and religion to camouflage their desire to maim and kill for their own ends.

I am not defending the IRA by any means. That said, people don't turn to terrorism, nor killing others, lightly. There are two sides to every conflict.

[GH-SC]Ryctor

01-21-2008, 06:05 PM

It makes me sad I share a state with you. Ignorant douchebags like you give this place a bad name.

I thought judges who played with penis pumps while overseeing cases gave this shitty state its bad name. Not people who've you know.....traveled and seen the shit they like to pull over there....oh well. Not everyone has as much experience with other cultures as Virtuoso does.

Lord_Don

01-21-2008, 06:15 PM

There are two sides to every conflict.

That's the fucking problem too, neither side is willing to look at the other because they hurt too much to try to sympathize with the other. Fucking human race.

Wadmaasi

01-21-2008, 06:26 PM

That said, people don't turn to terrorism, nor killing others, lightly.
That's silly. People kill other people for no particular reason all the time, both individually and en masse. Whether you're a murderer or a statesmen, we've been doing it forever and we'll continue doing it forever.

That's like saying "violence doesn't solve anything" when even the most cursory examination of history proves the exact opposite.

Johan

01-21-2008, 06:44 PM

I am not defending the IRA by any means. That said, people don't turn to terrorism, nor killing others, lightly. There are two sides to every conflict.

There aren't always two "right" sides to every conflict, however.

Or, would you argue that the Janjaweed in Sudan are right in randomly raping, pillaging, murdering, and burning entire villages in southern Sudan to get rid of the "blacks" ????

Edit: In retrospect, I suppose there are always two right sides to every conflict. In fact, for the morally relativistic among us, there are an infinite number of right sides to every conflict. :D

Dag-Sabot

01-21-2008, 06:58 PM

Never mind they're opening the border tomorrow for a one time shipment of industrial fuel and food.

Ultima Thulian

01-23-2008, 03:26 PM

http://www.hantak.com/images/picard.jpg

Man, I laughed pretty hard at that. Thanks! :D

That being said, nuking would solve the problem.

YOU SEE BATMAN, THE WORLD IS CRAZY AND THE CORPORATIONS OWN EVERYTHING! THERE'S ONLY ONE SOLUTION, BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT ALL UP!

Anyone who actually gets that very obscure rant from an even more obscure Batman Beyond villian gets my respect. He was my favorite BB villian.

PopoWRX

01-23-2008, 04:03 PM

Man, I laughed pretty hard at that. Thanks! :D

That being said, nuking would solve the problem.

YOU SEE BATMAN, THE WORLD IS CRAZY AND THE CORPORATIONS OWN EVERYTHING! THERE'S ONLY ONE SOLUTION, BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT ALL UP!

Anyone who actually gets that very obscure rant from an even more obscure Batman Beyond villian gets my respect. He was my favorite BB villian.

Can't remember that villain but Batman Beyond was the bees knees. Absolutely loved that show.

IrishWhiskey

01-23-2008, 04:07 PM

Man, I laughed pretty hard at that. Thanks! :D

That being said, nuking would solve the problem.

YOU SEE BATMAN, THE WORLD IS CRAZY AND THE CORPORATIONS OWN EVERYTHING! THERE'S ONLY ONE SOLUTION, BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT ALL UP!

Anyone who actually gets that very obscure rant from an even more obscure Batman Beyond villian gets my respect. He was my favorite BB villian.Obscure villain? Are you kidding? That was Mad Stan AKA Henry Freakin Rollins from Black Flag!

MduM0SCXlqM