Creationism - Evolution

[iHap]

So I am wondering what the ratio is of what the community of EvAv is on their stands on what they believe.

DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO ADD A DIFFERENT THEORY PLEASE.

[civil_dead]

You need an option for a combination of both.

For example, I'm a Christian that believes God created the universe but that it has also evolved over time. I'm also not a literal 7-Day Creationist.

There's lots of us out there, you know. Include us motherfucker!

[Citizen Philip]

Your poll doesn't make any sense. Religion and Science are two very different things.

Do you believe in:

Igneous Rocks.
George Brown.

[civil_dead]

I have a brown igneous rock that I call George.

[NSFW]

I'm both. An evolution guy but I do believe that a creator could have created everything and then set it all in motion via something akin to the big bang... I don't think about it often though.

[Achilles]

So I am wondering what the ratio is of what the community of EvAv is on their stands on what they believe.

DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO ADD A DIFFERENT THEORY PLEASE.I agree with the others, you need some more options on there, like directed evolution, 7-day creationism, and that kind of thing. Also the always popular alien evolution where we evolved from some alien bacteria on an asteroid.

[Telefrog]

I believe in Tron.

[digitalErich]

Your poll doesn't make any sense. Religion and Science are two very different things.
Arbitrary duality is a recent American past time :)

But to the OP's credit, I think the poll is valid to gauge what he is trying to get at. Sure, one is scientific theory and one is religion, but if you subscribe to one that usually means you do not believe in the other, depending on how you define evolution (macro vs micro).

Sure, they are two disciplines, but they both attempt to explain an aspect of nature so to put them up against each other is valid. How else would you judge value of an idea if you never compare it to competing ideas? This is how science started.

[Beelzebud]

Creationism is not a scientific theory. How do you test creationism?

[King Drewsky]

Can you truly believe in a theory? A theory is a postulate that hasn't been definitely proven. I think the evolution theory makes a lot of sense, but there are still some holes in it that need to be worked out before I believe it to be a fact. And once it is a fact, it is no longer a theory.

[digitalErich]

Creationism is not a scientific theory. How do you test creationism?
Religion, by definition, is based on faith, belief in the absence of and without the need for proof. I don't see how you need to be able to test for it to vote here.

I'm science all the way, but I don't understand why people here think theories from different disciplines can't be compared.

[jeffbax]

You don't "believe" in evolution... it happens and we can see that it does and its one of the most agreed upon concepts in all of science.

And anyone pulling the "theory" card needs to look up the meaning of a scientific theory again, or head back to 4th grade for a moment to re-learn it.

[Neon Wraith]

You need an option for a combination of both.

For example, I'm a Christian that believes God created the universe but that it has also evolved over time. I'm also not a literal 7-Day Creationist.

There's lots of us out there, you know. Include us motherfucker!

Yeah what about us? there are more sides to this for some of us than what you presented in your poll.

[digitalErich]

Can you truly believe in a theory? A theory is a postulate that hasn't been definitely proven. I think the evolution theory makes a lot of sense, but there are still some holes in it that need to be worked out before I believe it to be a fact. And once it is a fact, it is no longer a theory.
Yes, you can. That is basically what a theory is...a hypothesis based on evidence. Scientists interpret data in different ways all the time, so there is the concept of belief in science, in a way. The difference between scientific belief and faith is where the different lies.

[Beelzebud]

Can you truly believe in a theory? A theory is a postulate that hasn't been definitely proven. I think the evolution theory makes a lot of sense, but there are still some holes in it that need to be worked out before I believe it to be a fact. And once it is a fact, it is no longer a theory.

A theory is more than just an educated guess. It's a body of evidence. It's a group of facts that all support one main idea. Genetics and the fossil record have proven every prediction the theory of evolution has made.

Nothing in science is considered "fact", because science is always open to new evidence that may disprove a theory.

People really need to learn the distinction between a scientific theory, and the general populations use of the word...

[Beelzebud]

Religion, by definition, is based on faith, belief in the absence of and without the need for proof. I don't see how you need to be able to test for it to vote here.

I'm science all the way, but I don't understand why people here think theories from different disciplines can't be compared.

Then don't call creationism a theory. That word has certain connotations to it, especially when being compared to an actual scientific theory.

Compare them all you want, but creationism isn't a discipline of science.

[midrael]

Even though from the scientific use of the terminology it would be incorrect, I wonder what kind of uproar there would be if scientists just started to call it the Law of Evolution so the use of the word theory would stop confusing laymen. I'd buy a bucket of popcorn to watch that fight.

[digitalErich]

Then don't call creationism a theory. That word has certain connotations to it, especially when being compared to an actual scientific theory.

Compare them all you want, but creationism isn't a discipline of science.
I never said scientific theory. The word Theory has a broader use, else why add the 'scientific' for distinction?

And discipline was used for lack of a better word, of course it isn't science, that is the point of the pole.

[Camel]

Can you truly believe in a theory? A theory is a postulate that hasn't been definitely proven. I think the evolution theory makes a lot of sense, but there are still some holes in it that need to be worked out before I believe it to be a fact. And once it is a fact, it is no longer a theory.
Well, if it was the Evolution Hypothesis then I think you would have more to work with as far as objections go. A theory might not be complete fact, but is still supported by lots of evidence and accepted by a lot of people. Evolution will probably never be a law, just because we probably won't ever find all the fossil records needed to plug up all the holes. I think it's awesome to think of all the organisms we'll never even know existed because they didn't end up being fossilized (which only happens under some pretty extreme circumstances).

I guess all I'm trying to say is, don't get too caught up on the word "theory." The cell theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_theory) is also a theory, but I doubt too many people have a problem with it or flat out refuse to believe it.

[digitalErich]

Even though from the scientific use of the terminology it would be incorrect, I wonder what kind of uproar there would be if scientists just started to call it the Law of Evolution so the use of the word theory would stop confusing laymen. I'd buy a bucket of popcorn to watch that fight.
Scientific Laws are another beast entirely. A Law isn't "better" than a theory as some people often think. There isn't necessarily more proof for a law versus a theory. They just tend to explain different things.

Evolution is a model, and as such is labeled a theory. You usually don't apply the 'laws' label to models...you use laws to describe a set of statements inside a theory, like Ohm's Law, which is a part of Electromagnetic Theory.

[mkelehan]

creationism - evolution = -truth

[Lima Beans]

catholics believe "evolution is part of god's plan"

[MegaChops]

I"m a Catholic that doesn't believe god created the universe and believes in Evolution and God.

I was told in high school by my christian history teacher that I wasn't allowed to believe in both and that i was a walking contradiction.

I then told him the Nazi's were christians.

he didn't like that.

[IrishWhiskey]

You need an option for a combination of both.

For example, I'm a Christian that believes God created the universe but that it has also evolved over time. I'm also not a literal 7-Day Creationist.

There's lots of us out there, you know. Include us motherfucker!There is that option. Its called evolution.

Nothing about recognizing that things changing over time requires you to disbelieve in God. You can certainly reconcile Christianity with the idea that God works by setting complex processes in motion, rather than considering that woman was made from man's rib as directly literal instead of allegory.

I never said scientific theory. The word Theory has a broader use, else why add the 'scientific' for distinction?

And discipline was used for lack of a better word, of course it isn't science, that is the point of the pole.I think was point was how you had said they were directly comparable. You can't win an argument with an article of faith against an observed scientific principle. Its like asking which wins, blue or 7?

[violentp]

We all reside on a disc atop the backs of four elephants atop the back of a giant turtle hurling through space. Look it up.

EDIT: Who cares how we got here.

[midrael]

Scientific Laws are another beast entirely. A Law isn't "better" than a theory as some people often think. There isn't necessarily more proof for a law versus a theory. They just tend to explain different things.

Evolution is a model, and as such is labeled a theory. You usually don't apply the 'laws' label to models...you use laws to describe a set of statements inside a theory, like Ohm's Law, which is a part of Electromagnetic Theory.

Oh yeah, I know that Scientific Laws and Scientific Theories don't work the way I just suggested. That's why I said I knew the terminology was incorrect.

I was only suggesting a Law of Evolution for the laymen, so they understand that evolution has long since grown out of the hypothesis stage that the word "theory" seems to suggest.

*goes back to bucket of popcorn*

[digitalErich]

I was told in high school by my christian history teacher that I wasn't allowed to believe in both and that i was a walking contradiction.
You also could have asked him if he ever heard of Einstein. :)

[digitalErich]

I was only suggesting a Law of Evolution for the laymen, so they understand that evolution has long since grown out of the hypothesis stage that the word "theory" seems to suggest.
Ah, I see what you mean. This is what you get with a country with such a crappy science focus in schools...people that don't grasp the basic vocabulary of the subject.

[MegaChops]

You also could have asked him if he ever heard of Einstein. :)

Meh he did show us indiana jones in class, so he wasn't all that bad...until he started preaching his religion in a public school. I didn't approve of that.

[Shadowstorm]

I voted Creation.

[digitalErich]

EDIT: Who cares how we got here.
I do, as do plenty of others.

[TrackZero]

Just vote people, this thread wasn't for discussion. ;)

[IrishWhiskey]

Proof of the falsity of evolution is right here. Creationism wins.

FZFG5PKw504

xvyQRdlKiwI


/thread

[MegaChops]

Ah peanut butter, the greatest foe.

[violentp]

I do, as do plenty of others.

Well you definitely came to the right place for that answer. :rolleyes:

[digitalErich]

Just vote people, this thread wasn't for discussion.
You put a thread up on a discussion board and things will get discussed.

I'm calling it my Theory of Obviousness. :)

[Shadowstorm]

Life cannot come from non-life. This is true.

[Citizen Philip]

Igneous Rocks.
George Brown.

Although George Brown is the father of soul, and Igneous rocks are indeed hard I believe it is possible that somewhere in between there is rock music.

[Citizen Philip]

Life cannot come from non-life. This is true.

How can you prove or disprove your statement?

[LongStepMantis]

Both.
I believe the Universe has a creator...but not in the way of a "God".
More of a "Power Source", like a big ball of raw energy. And the entire universe is connected to it by Ley Lines. Think of it as a giant electrical power grid we can't see. :D

[walkstheplanes]

I majored in genetics. Since all the principles behind evolution are used in successful modern genomics and genetics (not to mention other microbio studies involving proteins [ie. proteomics], mechanisms of action, etc) studies today (and are being built upon and more understood at a very quick rate), you can imagine which option I chose.

I chose LEEEEEERRRRRROOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENKINSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Ancalagon]

IrishWhisky, I've seen a lot of horrible things in my life. I've seen aliens kill pregnant women in AVP2. I've seen David Hasselhoff sing.

But never, ever, have I seen something that revolting.

[IrishWhiskey]

Life cannot come from non-life. This is true.You mean like people arising from dust or a rib?

IrishWhisky, I've seen a lot of horrible things in my life. I've seen aliens kill pregnant women in AVP2. I've seen David Hasselhoff sing.

But never, ever, have I seen something that revolting.Then my work is done.

The worst part is checking out his YouTube page. He fills it with 5 star ratings and endless praise about what an awesome and brilliant person he is, and then disables any further ratings or comments.

[The Bashar]

Irish those videos hurt my head. I hope you are happy!

[Camel]

Proof of the falsity of evolution is right here. Creationism wins.

I went to check out the comments for that second video, expecting to find all sorts of incoherent arguments. I was disappointed by what I found.

Watching those videos makes me frustrated (bear in mind that I am also a biology teacher). Same feeling I got when I read a paper discussing how many science teachers there are out there who don't support the theory of evolution.

EDIT:
The worst part is checking out his YouTube page. He fills it with 5 star ratings and endless praise about what an awesome and brilliant person he is, and then disables any further ratings or comments.
Ah. That explains it.

SUPER DOUBLE EDIT:
(not to mention other microbio studies involving proteins [ie. proteomics], mechanisms of action, etc)
Ha, you are the first person I've seen besides me who had to use brackets in a sentence. I use waaaaay too many parenthetical asides.

[DiBiddilyBop]

I see no option whatsoever for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I could assume you meant FSM for "creation," but I'm just not comfortable voting for it unless you specify it is the FSM version of creation.

Your poll shows severe deficiencies.

[Philonious]

Where is the love for Scientology? Tom Cruise must be hopping up and down on a couch somewhere knowing that we don't respect his beliefs!

In all seriousness you should include a category for churchy people who dig on evolution, because the concepts of God and evolution are NOT necessarily mutually exclusive.

I would be interested in knowing how anyone can deny the evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Believing in God is fine, but discounting evolution in the face of all the supporting evidence seems extreme and is hard to grasp.

[digitalErich]

I would be interested in knowing how anyone can deny the evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Believing in God is fine, but discounting evolution in the face of all the supporting evidence seems extreme and is hard to grasp.
For the same reason people still think the Earth is 6,000 years old...either a lack of education on the subject or willful ignorance.

[Camel]

I would be interested in knowing how anyone can deny the evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Believing in God is fine, but discounting evolution in the face of all the supporting evidence seems extreme and is hard to grasp.
There are some EvAvers out there who can probably help you out with that.

[LongStepMantis]

I just wanted to note that not 5 minutes ago, I got to listen to 2 people arguing over this very subject.

Guy: Fossils>Religion
Guy2: Religion>Fossils ....and neither one would give an inch.

A lot of it was the "The Devil planted fossils in the ground to trick people!" speech.
I never wanted to jump into a debate more...but I knew the only way to win that argument, is to not take part in it.

[IrishWhiskey]

A lot of it was the "The Devil planted fossils in the ground to trick people!" speech.
I never wanted to jump into a debate more...but I knew the only way to win that argument, is to not take part in it.-qmglGWMsdk

Skip to 2:25 for the short version.

[Ancalagon]

I never wanted to jump into a debate more...but I knew the only way to win that argument, is to not take part in it.

The only way to win is with a gun pointed to the head of the heretic who believes in God. Such heresy cannot go unpunished! Oh wait we dont do that stuff. In that case just stay out of it, yeah.

[walkstheplanes]

I guess all I'm trying to say is, don't get too caught up on the word "theory." The cell theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_theory) is also a theory, but I doubt too many people have a problem with it or flat out refuse to believe it.

I get miffed by the whole "it's a theory, not fact" argument too. They just don't understand the terminology.

Gravity causing planetoids to clump together in roughly spherical forms is also a "theory," but people don't get all hoo haa'd up about the earth being round.

(Also, brackets are fun [and useful!])

[NSFW]

I dig this thread but why no option for both.

Also,...

should we have belief in a theory... I don't think so.
should we have a theory based on beliefs... no.

[Johan]

I'm sure we're going to solve this question right here and now...I just know the truth will arise from the digital bits of the posts in here to form...

nothing.

You mean like people arising from dust or a rib?

A good example of bringing up something from a holy text in mockery. I just cannot understand why one who professes to a particular faith, and supposedly loves God and his faith, would intentionally direct mockery and disdain in the direction of his/her faith.

You are truly something else. Whether you believe it is literal, figurative, or otherwise, if you follow this text and profess a love for the Lord, you should be the LAST person to mock His Scripture.

[Baron Samedi]

http://www.indiana.edu/~jah/teaching/2001_03/images/fs_cake_eater.gif

[Kielaran]

Add combo to the poll.

I am Catholic *ducks* and the pope has even said that we cannot ignore evolution. Throw in a (non)vote under the combination bracket

[TheKeck]

Another vote here for it's not quite that simple.

[Baron Samedi]

Thirded! To hell with the MAN - both of 'em.

[Bone]

Although George Brown is the father of soul, and Igneous rocks are indeed hard I believe it is possible that somewhere in between there is rock music.
You mean James Brown. I do not believe in George Brown, so Igneous Rocks are clearly the path to enlightenment. Therefore I vote for Pie.

[walkstheplanes]

A good example of bringing up something from a holy text in mockery. I just cannot understand why one who professes to a particular faith, and supposedly loves God and his faith, would intentionally direct mockery and disdain in the direction of his/her faith.

You are truly something else. Whether you believe it is literal, figurative, or otherwise, if you follow this text and profess a love for the Lord, you should be the LAST person to mock His Scripture.

Plase take what he said in the context of what he was responding to. Someone said "Life cannot be made from nothing, this is true" (or something like that), so Irish responded to him by taking what some Christians believe is the alternative, which is God creating man from nothing (ie. from dust). He was just pointing out the irony of the other person's post -- I doubt he meant any sort of mockery.

tl;dr version:
Take it easy, Johan! smiley face :)

[IrishWhiskey]

A good example of bringing up something from a holy text in mockery. I just cannot understand why one who professes to a particular faith, and supposedly loves God and his faith, would intentionally direct mockery and disdain in the direction of his/her faith.

You are truly something else. Whether you believe it is literal, figurative, or otherwise, if you follow this text and profess a love for the Lord, you should be the LAST person to mock His Scripture.Quit being an asshole.

Like I said, I believe certain passages of the Bible are meant figuratively, not literally (When it says we are Lambs of God they don't mean we have wool and four legs). Nothing in that mocks scripture, and what more, you damn well know it. I've heard the Priest in my church (who isn't a fundie that thinks the earth is 6,000 years old or that evolution is Satan's lies) explain the exact same thing, that the creation story is an allegory for the means in which God created us and the Universe. And I'm pretty sure there are parts of the Bible you also take figuratively or judge within the context of the era. But instead you ignore that and simply attack others as "false Christians" for not agreeing with your own right-wing beliefs.

This has nothing to do with your faith, this is entirely about you sullying your religion for use in personal attacks. Again.



Oh, and for someone who reamed out (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41324&page=2) baggle for bringing up this discussion again, you seem to do so in a hurry.

[cp#]

Creationists and religious nuts in general give me lulz

Christianity (edit - basically Catholicism) is as big of a joke as any other religion out there. No different from Scientology, which just hasn't quite caught on yet.

[violentp]

Hail Satan!

NCiTlMrMAhU

[civil_dead]

This post amended because...well, I was an asshole.

Sincere apologies to chaimpot0k.

[Bone]

Further proof that if given the time and resources, monkeys can indeed type out the works of Shakespeare. Look at what this one simp was able to bang out in the span of one day.

This thread is for those with Big Boy Pants, junior. Go play in the TittyFuckPooPoo thread. That seems to be more your intellectual speed.

Note: It is not his mockery of my faith that angers me. Indeed, many of my best friends are fevered atheists. No, it's when someone chimes in with words so stupid, so vapid that I feel the need to attack.

Hey... no personal attacks, fuckstick!

[civil_dead]

Hey... no personal attacks, fuckstick!
Bah. You're right cuntrag.

Chimpango, or whatever your name is, I'm sorry. Just please try and add something to the conversation next time, okay? Calling Christianity wannabe Catholicism is...well, retarded. OMG, unless you are retarded! Then congratulations on turning the computer on! Way to go champ!

Phew. Thanks Bone. I feel like I cleared the air. You're such a peacemaker.

[Bone]

Bah. You're right cuntrag.

Chimpango, or whatever your name is, I'm sorry. Just please try and add something to the conversation next time, okay? Calling Christianity wannabe Catholicism is...well, retarded. OMG, unless you are retarded! Then congratulations on turning the computer on! Way to go champ!

Phew. Thanks Bone. I feel like I cleared the air. You're such a peacemaker.
I think we should share a hot bowl of primordial soup after all that.

[baz]

I always find the framing of the argument Creationism vs Evolution strange. They aren't competing in the same arena.

It's a bit of a played out quote, but I think it sums up things nicely:

"I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen Roberts

I believe that evolution is the theory that best explains the facts that we have.

[civil_dead]

I think we should share a hot bowl of primordial soup after all that.
Agreed. Let's throw in some croutons and see if Jessica Alba crawls out in a few years.

[Rirath]

You need an option for a combination of both.

For example, I'm a Christian that believes God created the universe but that it has also evolved over time. I'm also not a literal 7-Day Creationist.

Seconded. I'm a "God is the why, science is the how." sorta guy.
And seriously, what's with these "DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD" rules?

People are always trying to enforce posting structures and such around here...

[blademonkey]

I believe in Tron.

http://mytsoftware.com/misc/linux2.jpg

Choices missing:
-Unified Theory
-Quantum Theory
-All of the Above
-None of the Above
-Gaming (should be automatically checked or else Permaban user from forum).

[cp#]

Further proof that if given the time and resources, monkeys can indeed type out the works of Shakespeare. Look at what this one simp was able to bang out in the span of one day.

This thread is for those with Big Boy Pants, junior. Go play in the TittyFuckPooPoo thread. That seems to be more your intellectual speed.

Note: It is not his mockery of my faith that angers me. Indeed, many of my best friends are fevered atheists. No, it's when someone chimes in with words so stupid, so vapid that I am moved to retort.

Ummm yeah ok. Die. Then you will see God. There is no difference between Catholicism and Christianity as far as I'm concerned.

Anyways.. my theory is that it's castin' a shadow... from... the other limb...

Bah. You're right cuntrag.

Chimpango, or whatever your name is, I'm sorry. Just please try and add something to the conversation next time, okay? Calling Christianity wannabe Catholicism is...well, retarded. OMG, unless you are retarded! Then congratulations on turning the computer on! Way to go champ!

Phew. Thanks Bone. I feel like I cleared the air. You're such a peacemaker.

Fuck you? I am confident that I am smarter than you. For one, you are a Christian. Did your god create everything in 6 days? Are all those darn Muslims going to hell?

Hail Satan!


Love Mr. Show. Especially Bob O'

Remember boys and girls, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, see you in hell!

[Johan]

Quit being an asshole.

http://www.emoticons4u.com/evil/teu42.gif

Now that we've been properly introduced...I'm the asshole over here. You're the mockumentarian dipsh** over there!

http://www.emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb147.gif

I'm waiting for us all to evolve beyond all of this. All I see is a helluva lot of adaptation, however! :D

[Rirath]

There is no difference between Catholicism and Christianity as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, but you're factually wrong. You could look it up if you'd like.

[IrishWhiskey]

Ummm yeah ok. Die. Then you will see God. There is no difference between Catholicism and Christianity as far as I'm concerned.

Anyways.. my theory is that it's castin' a shadow... from... the other limb...

Fuck you? I am confident that I am smarter than you. For one, you are a Christian. Did your god create everything in 6 days? Are all those darn Muslims going to hell?http://www.emoticons4u.com/evil/teu42.gif

Now that we've been properly introduced...I'm the asshole over here. You're the mockumentarian dipsh** over there!

http://www.emoticons4u.com/violent/sterb147.gif

I'm waiting for us all to evolve beyond all of this. All I see is a helluva lot of adaptation, however! :D....This thread is going well.

[civil_dead]

Fuck you? I am confident that I am smarter than you.
Oh no. You're not. Not even close. I could run circles around you, lad. Easily.

I already amended my earlier post to reflect my apology. But this? This shit is personal. Let's just agree to sit back and watch Irish and Johan go at it, shall we?

[Baron Samedi]

....This thread is going well.

http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/thriller/25.gif

[cp#]

Ok, but you're factually wrong. You could look it up if you'd like.

Go to church, sing a bit, listen to the priests sermon, stand up, sit down, kneel, sing, communion (old people leave at this point), maybe another song, see you next week! See you in heaven! Abortion is bad!

Nothing needs looking up.

http://www.journalpics.net/images/saved/jpicsb1RHVmY1Tov5CWc.gif

You fool!

[violentp]

Hah, good times. I like to think the OP is slapping his forehead right now.

[Baron Samedi]

You fool!

Sad, but true! I kinda like the more frantic version I replaced it with. But hey, at least it wasn't gay pr0n.

[torrefaction]

Go to church, sing a bit, listen to the priests sermon, stand up, sit down, kneel, sing, communion (old people leave at this point), maybe another song, see you next week! See you in heaven! Abortion is bad!

Nothing needs looking up.



You fool!

No, idiot. That's wrong. Communion is a catholic only thing. Same with all the kneeling and standing up shit.You're being a complete fool, and look stupider as you go.

And I'm agnostic, so don't think this is about religion. This is about ignorance and intelligence.

[civil_dead]

No, idiot. That's wrong. Communion is a catholic only thing. Same with all the kneeling and standing up shit.You're being a complete fool, and look stupider as you go.

And I'm agnostic, so don't think this is about religion. This is about ignorance and intelligence.
You might wanna Ninja Edit, torre. Communion isn't a Catholic only thing. Neither is the kneeling/standing/sitting bit.

But I agree with the rest of your post. Chimparooni is doing nothing to increase his standing around here.

[iHap]

SIGH...Does nobody read big red letters?

[cp#]

Wow because I've been to many Christian masses and there was communion each time. No kneeling, you are correct but yeah there were definitely croutons involved and small glasses of grape juice, too. Oh and a band with an electric guitar :cool:

You might wanna Ninja Edit, torre. Communion isn't a Catholic only thing. Neither is the kneeling/standing/sitting bit.

But I agree with the rest of your post. Chimparooni is doing nothing to increase his standing around here.

When have I been trying to impress you? On the internets? In a thread about religion?

Oh right.

The little name games you are playing are fucking stupid and you are coming off as an anti-semitic asshole

Christians are intolerant.

[rein]

Go to church, sing a bit, listen to the priests sermon, stand up, sit down, kneel, sing, communion (old people leave at this point), maybe another song, see you next week! See you in heaven! Abortion is bad!

Nothing needs looking up.

You're missing his point. You should really take the time to look it up. You might even learn something.

[IrishWhiskey]

SIGH...Does nobody read big red letters?Did you really expect to start a controversial topic, tell people not to post, and they would somehow listen to you? C'mon now.

If you want people to take you seriously, start italicizing, underlining and using exclamation points. Then they'll respect your wishes.

[torrefaction]

You might wanna Ninja Edit, torre. Communion isn't a Catholic only thing. Neither is the kneeling/standing/sitting bit.

But I agree with the rest of your post. Chimparooni is doing nothing to increase his standing around here.

Eh, I was mostly thinking he was referring to the whole transubstation thing the Catholic church does, but you're right.

The kneeling/standing/sitting thing didn't happen at quite a few churches I went to. I was being overly broad, but the crux of my point was Christianity is wildly divergent.

[violentp]

SIGH...Does nobody read big red letters?

Surely you wouldn't believe this would turn out any other way.

[torrefaction]

Surely you wouldn't believe this would turn out any other way.

Buddy lives in a world of delusion.

Sorta like people who believe in an invisible man with omnipotent powers *RIMSHOT*

[cp#]

Surely you wouldn't believe this would turn out any other way.

Flying spaghetti monster?

Buddy lives in a world of delusion.

Sorta like people who believe in an invisible man with omnipotent powers *RIMSHOT*

BOOM HEADSHOT

[violentp]

Buddy lives in a world of delusion.

Sorta like people who believe in an invisible man with omnipotent powers *RIMSHOT*

Heyoo. I'm waiting for the right moment to toss my Jesus joke in here. It's sacrelicious.

[Siraris]

I believe in both as well. I find it utterly ludicrous that the world hasn't figured out that God and evolution can exist in the same sentence, and why either one has to be mutually exclusive.

I definitely do not believe the world was created in 7 days, it is simply a metaphor.

I've also never understood why God is assumed to be perfect in every way, all knowing, etc. You could very easily explain evolution as God NOT knowing everything, and learning along the way. Yet scientists continue to make statements like "If God was omnipotent, he wouldn't do this, and thus there is no God. HAHA I WIN!".

[Bone]

Agreed. Let's throw in some croutons and see if Jessica Alba crawls out in a few years.I smell a joint business opportunity here.

[iHap]

Surely you wouldn't believe this would turn out any other way.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4310/futuramakz1.gif

[violentp]

Flying spaghetti monster?

Problem is that none of this matters. There will be no breakthrough here. We are discussing matters that we may potentially never get answers to. The faster we all realize this, the faster we all stop arguing and can get back to keeping an eye on our own respective horses.

[torrefaction]

I've also never understood why God is assumed to be perfect in every way, all knowing, etc. You could very easily explain evolution as God NOT knowing everything, and learning along the way. Yet scientists continue to make statements like "If God was omnipotent, he wouldn't do this, and thus there is no God. HAHA I WIN!".

Well, because most of Christianity's arguments revolve around a god who knows everything, so....

[walkstheplanes]

I'm waiting for us all to evolve beyond all of this. All I see is a helluva lot of adaptation, however! :D

Actually, evolution tends to strive for "good enough," not perfection... So, no, we're never going evolve beyond these endless, pointless internet fights.

[midrael]

Heyoo. I'm waiting for the right moment to toss my Jesus joke in here. It's sacrelicious.

Sacrelicious? Is that a delicious form of sacrelige? Awesome.

[Rirath]

Nothing needs looking up.

Here's a start for you
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

Transubstantiation Affirmed by Catholics - Rejected by (most) Christians

This is the belief that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus. Many Christians don't literally believe that, many Catholics do.

Purgatory Affirmed - Denied
Pretty big one, there.

Prayer to saints Accepted - Rejected
Also rather important.

But here's a big one: Catholics believe salvation is received at baptism; may be lost by mortal sin; regained by penance. Christians believe it's the result of divine grace and unconditional, gained by accepting Jesus as the savior and nothing more, and nothing less is ever required.

Also big: Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures. Catholicism relies heavily on their church, traditions, dogma / doctrines, Rome and the Pope, etc. Christians believe their sins are forgiven unconditionally as a result of divine grace through the Lord, Catholics have more conditions and require things like confession to a priest. In Christianity, there's a priesthood of all believers.


My Grandmother was Catholic, I'm a Christian.
Just some facts, if you're interested.

[cp#]

I believe in both as well. I find it utterly ludicrous that the world hasn't figured out that God and evolution can exist in the same sentence, and why either one has to be mutually exclusive.

I definitely do not believe the world was created in 7 days, it is simply a metaphor.

I've also never understood why God is assumed to be perfect in every way, all knowing, etc. You could very easily explain evolution as God NOT knowing everything, and learning along the way. Yet scientists continue to make statements like "If God was omnipotent, he wouldn't do this, and thus there is no God. HAHA I WIN!".

That isn't my problem. My problem is all these nuts and their intolerance. Is some Amazonian tribesman going to hell because he does not believe, nor has he ever heard in the Christian God? The Christian and Catholic God are one in the same, are they not? That was my point earlier. They share the same Bible.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/51909970_13456275bc_o.jpg

[violentp]

First thing I'd do is bust out the crayons.

[cp#]

Problem is that none of this matters. There will be no breakthrough here. We are discussing matters that we may potentially never get answers to. The faster we all realize this, the faster we all stop arguing and can get back to keeping an eye on our own respective horses.

I want to find aliens.

[violentp]

I want to find aliens.

Better chances that's for sure.

[walkstheplanes]

First thing I'd do is bust out the crayons.

Hell yeah!

[Philonious]

I'm still waiting for some kind of rationale for discarding the evidence supporting evolution by those who reject it... I'm not asking because I want to see someone make a fool of themselves, but because i am honestly curious.

Also, I find Christian dogmatism to be ironic given that most Christian sects were formed from those who rejected the Catholic Church as being corrupt. Your religion is a modified version of a previous religion, why is the concept of change so frightening?

[Kamalot]

I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster)

[Rirath]

That isn't my problem. My problem is all these nuts and their intolerance.

We are "intolerant" because our belief is that the Lord is the only way to salvation. Thus, we have to be. Personally, I've always struggled with this -- but it is God's way, we believe. We are not pluralistic, and we never will accept that view. Proper Christian life, however, does not say it's ok to be "intolerant" in attitude toward people of other faith's. In fact, Jesus commands us to love everyone.

Here's a better comparison link, btw:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/denominations_beliefs.htm

Is some Amazonian tribesman going to hell because he does not believe, nor has he ever heard in the Christian God?

If you're honestly interested in this question, there are good resources available. But the simple answer is that there is a chance for salvation for people who have never heard of Christ. It's in that link I posted last time, by the way.

Now, if they've heard of Christ and reject him... that may be a different matter. It is not for me to decide.

[Telefrog]

That's it. This thread has become way too Christian vs. Athiest. I'm going to have to post this (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html) again.


2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying

Christians do this thing that drives atheists nuts, where they talk like God is patently obvious to all mankind, and that atheism is therefore just petty, intentional rebellion against Christians. In other words, that atheists don't honestly believe what they say, and just say it because they're jerks.

But atheists do something very similar, particularly when a Christian says:

"Only the saved go to Heaven!"

...and what the atheist hears is:

"I want everyone else to go to Hell!"

It's the same thing, thinking that deep down Christians don't really believe this is the law handed down by a creator, and therefore Christianity is just a petty, intentional rebellion against the non-Christians of the world. In other words, that Christians don't honestly believe what they say, and just say it because they're jerks.

But all that is just a way to make cartoon villains out of the people who disagree with us. And if we stop and think about it, we'll see it's asinine.

Atheists, you know that Christians have freaking died because they refused to walk away from what they believe. That goes beyond simple human stubbornness. I mean, I can tell you first hand. I was raised in a Pentecostal church (like the one they visited in the Borat movie).

I soured on the whole religion thing in my teens, as you can probably imagine, and then came back to it later kind of on my own terms. From that experience I can relay this fact: If there's no God, then there is something in the human brain that can and does present an amazingly realistic impression of one. A gland, an artifact of environmental pattern recognition, whatever you want to pin it on, the result is, at certain times and in certain moods, as tangible and real and distinct as the person sitting across from you on the subway.

You can say they're wrong. You can say it all day, you can etch "YOU'RE WRONG" into the surface of the moon with a giant laser. But you'll have a lot less angst if you remember that the thing they're wrong about is something they honestly believe, down to their roots. I guess you could just call them crazy, but it's a little silly to use that word when believers are the norm in human population.

But either way, it's not something they intentionally chose just to annoy you.

Christians, same deal. Every one of you have got friends and family who aren't believers. And I bet some of them are good people. Earnest people, thoughtful people. Charitable. Kind.

So... doesn't that kind of kill the premise that these people are avoiding God out of sinful rebellion or fear of having to live a godly life? After all, you've got people who are doing the hard part (self-sacrifice, patience, giving up all sorts of sinful pleasures) but are avoiding the easy part (praying and listening to a preacher talk for one hour a week). If God and the danger of Hell were that obvious, why wouldn't they just go all the way with it?

No, if there is a God, it appears that some good people honestly don't perceive him. For whatever reason. And there has to be some tolerance in God's rules for the Honest Mistake. Has to be. Otherwise we're all going to get screwed by that thing with the Sabbath being on Saturday instead of Sunday.

So, we've agreed that the other guy, no matter how irritating he or she is, is likely making an honest mistake.

[Kamalot]

That's it. This thread has become way too Christian vs. Athiest. I'm going to have to post this (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html) again.

Excellent!
Lots of people believe strange things. Some people believe Elvis is still alive. Some people believe that Kevin Costner can actually act. Other than strange beliefs, they can still be good people.

[cp#]

Trees > humans. I want to see alien trees. Deism is cool, I think they also call it being agnostic now (they could be different!). Try shrooms.

[blademonkey]

Excellent!
Lots of people believe strange things. Some people believe Elvis is still alive. Some people believe that Kevin Costner can actually act. Other than strange beliefs, they can still be good people.

recount, anyone?

[walkstheplanes]

Evolution: SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/walkstheplanes/n1205826_32495271_9441.jpg

[Soap]

I forget, but what is the Christian stance on the belief of extra terrestrial life as in space aliens? Must we convert the ET hordes to acknowledge the one true god?

[blademonkey]

I'm still waiting for some kind of rationale for discarding the evidence supporting evolution by those who reject it... I'm not asking because I want to see someone make a fool of themselves, but because i am honestly curious.

Also, I find Christian dogmatism to be ironic given that most Christian sects were formed from those who rejected the Catholic Church as being corrupt. Your religion is a modified version of a previous religion, why is the concept of change so frightening?

Because you have to explain why you can't return all of that nice money. :D

[Kamalot]

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/img/archive/16_02/into162.jpg

[Karamazov]

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2905/kingrodneywi8.jpg

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?

[Johan]

....This thread is going well.

:D

Ding ding ding!

http://www.emoticons4u.com/crazy/1088.gif

Actually, evolution tends to strive for "good enough," not perfection... So, no, we're never going evolve beyond these endless, pointless internet fights.

I never said we could be perfect. That's one thing everyone can agree on, I would hope. People will never be perfect.

I think what we need is for everyone to just mock everyone else...to keep the mood light.

You're all a bunch of unevolved wankers.

[Whimbrel]

Originally Posted by Philonious
I'm still waiting for some kind of rationale for discarding the evidence supporting evolution by those who reject it... I'm not asking because I want to see someone make a fool of themselves, but because i am honestly curious.

Philonius,

I have done my fair share of debating creationists and the main reason they reject evolution has to do with having no science background whatsoever. For somebody with absolutely no connection with science the concept of "evidence" is entirely subjective. I have yet to come across anybody who rejects evolution who does not feel a religious obligation to do so, but I have met people who are fine with evolution who are athiests or religious. For people who feel that their value as a person, "I'm a fine, upstanding, god-fearing sort..." is based on the strength of their faith and who think that their faith is opposed to evolution, the social and psychological pressure to reject it, coupled with a misunderstanding of science and a "seems to me" definition of evidence, all the scholarship in the world can be swept away and discarded in an instant.

I had the amusing and frustrating experience of teaching college Biology in Utah. Most of my students were Mormon undergrads who felt that they must reject evolution because it apparently clashed with the belief that humans were created in god's image and also who mistakenly thought that the church opposed evolution. In fact, a BYU Biology professor who I worked with to defeat the Intelligent Design push in Utah a few years ago has written extensively on the official LDS position on evolution, but Mormons in general continue to think that they are obligated to oppose it. I think there is a dissertation topic here for some budding sociologist.

[cp#]

The best kind of person is a God fearing one. And I heard he was lookin' for ya, punk.

[Johan]

69AEOyZCkSE

Hee hee!

Hahahahaha! You just listened to gospel!

Also...most of you ain't gettin' on my boat. You have your own, right? Evolve one!

[violentp]

You should put that line in a spoiler tag J. It kinda loses it's luster if they don't hit play.

[Johan]

You should put that line in a spoiler tag J. It kinda loses it's luster if they don't hit play.

Done! :)

shortshort

[cp#]

I see your song and raise you:

WtwGyxzxBDg

Marley is my God

[violentp]

IBHVPYOLj4Q

[walkstheplanes]

You're all a bunch of unevolved wankers.

You're mom's a bunch of unevolved wankers!

[Johan]

Marley is my God

I can't go that far, obviously, but he's freakin' awesome. :)

You're mom's a bunch of unevolved wankers!

Your grammar is unevolved! ;)

[walkstheplanes]

Your grammar is unevolved! ;)

Bah! That's the first grammar error I make in the last few hundred posts and I get jumped on.

[Johan]

Bah! That's the first grammar error I make in the last few hundred posts and I get jumped on.

Second! "have made."

You needed to use the present perfect construction to indicate a continued action begun in the past and leading up to the present.

[cp#]

I was just looking for a video to post...

From Con Air the black guy says something about how he is not sure God exists and then he's like "Hey! Where you goin'?"

Nick Cage hits him with, "I'm gonna show you God does exist."

Was rolling on the floor after that line

mCLAIXWxCEU

[NSFW]

Sorry for posting in this thread so much...

But if I may play devil's advocate for a second...

How can one demand proof that something is real if there is no proof (by definition of belief) that it is in fact real? No facts == not real and requires belief and faith in it's existence to believe in.

discuss.

[cp#]

Sorry for posting in this thread so much...

But if I may play devil's advocate for a second...

How can one demand proof that something is real if there is no proof (by definition of belief) that it is in fact real? No facts == not real and requires belief and faith in it's existence to believe in.

discuss.

My mind is officially blown.

[Johan]

Sorry for posting in this thread so much

http://static.desktopnexus.com/wallpapers/9154-bigthumbnail.jpg

[LongStepMantis]

I think it's safe to say we all agree to disagree.
Good say sirs. :D

[NSFW]

Yes be the water my friend!

[civil_dead]

Oh violent, don't taint this already tainted thread with that imbecilic poseur. If anyone defines Fuckwad, he's definitely it. Fucking no-talent ripoff artist.

Now Christian Death...that was a band. Deathrock, baby. Got me through some pretty bad years. How I miss the late 70's/early 80's. :(

Z8TTVAQU4oA

EDIT: Johan, you should be shot for posting that crap! Christian music, for the most part, sucks a big bag of donkey dicks. There is a special place in Hell for those guys.

[Johan]

There is a special place in Hell for those guys.

That's a bit ironic...:confused:

Anyways, the Gaither Vocal Band is very well-respected within the gospel community, and through its various iterations (changing four principal members) has been very, very successful.

I love their stuff! :D

How about some DC Talk?

pnHVQl3faVs

Caedmon's Call?

o3ZWvHY5Jew

[derjester]

I thought that Creationism had a bit of scientific theory in it and Creationists supported their argument with gaps in the fossil record showing that species simply appeared at times without any other evolutionary data in the fossil record? Evolutionists argued that these gaps in the fossil record were easily explained by fossil records being destroyed through tectonic shifts. At least, last time I really did so scholorly research about the debate (high school).
The debate had less to do with religion then and more to do with science back then I suppose.

Also, that big long "Christian vs. Catholic" post a while back seems to mixed up "Christian" and the ideas created by the Protestant reformation which encompass quite a few sects of Christianity and exclude quite a few as well. To be objective, I don't think you can say "Christian" and exclude Catholicism.

If the OP wanted less debate and just voting they should have qualified each option and what it meant.

[NSFW]

Christian music, for the most part, sucks a big bag of donkey dicks. There is a special place in Hell for those guys.

Oh the irony!!

edit:

... Protestant Reformation .... different kinds of christians ...

Hey I'm learning the history behind all that right now it's very interesting!

[JudasGoat]

I believe in swordfish.

[LongStepMantis]

I believe in swordfish.

Your name is Judas and you have 666 posts...

monty python
"Run away!!!"
/monty python

:D

[Johan]

Michael Card?

ZvejyvnEidY

[civil_dead]

That's a bit ironic...:confused:

Anyways, the Gaither Vocal Band is very well-respected within the gospel community, and through its various iterations (changing four principal members) has been very, very successful.
Oh Johan. You are lost, brother. You've bought the package deal. :(

The only Christian music I listen to is old gospel stuff from the early 20th century. The rest, IMnotsoHO, is retardalicious. Horrible stuff. Shit, in fact. I'm sorry, I just don't believe that it's good. At all. I'd rather shove razor blades in my ear than listen to that stuff.

And I know it's ironic that I hope there is a special place in Hell for those people. A man can dream, can't he? After all, I believe tripe like that is responsible for turning more people away from Christianity than...well, just about anything. In fact I'm sickened by 99% of Evangelical culture. Ugh.

I must purify myself with another of my favorite L.A. bands from back then, 45 Grave:

e444fOyNPK0

Johan, it's not too late you know. You can still like...good music.

[Rirath]

Also, that big long "Christian vs. Catholic" post a while back seems to mixed up "Christian" and the ideas created by the Protestant reformation which encompass quite a few sects of Christianity and exclude quite a few as well.

It was just an example.

To be objective, I don't think you can say "Christian" and exclude Catholicism.

Hmm... I do. I don't confess to a priest. I don't take orders from the Pope or the church. I don't believe anyone but Jesus is involved in my salvation, nor do I believe it has any conditions of any kind. I don't pray to saints, I don't believe in purgatory.

We believe in Christ as the savior and son of God, so we're united in that... but we believe Catholics separate themselves to some extent by choice with their rituals and dogma and beliefs, which we believe to be obsolete.

[Johan]

Johan, it's not too late you know. You can still like...good music.

It's too late for me...I long ago left my edgier musical days behind.

I enjoy mainly mellow stuff nowadays.

[Rirath]

The only Christian music I listen to is old gospel stuff from the early 20th century. The rest, IMnotsoHO, is retardalicious. Horrible stuff.

I'm always amused by the comedian who once said contemporary Christian music is just contemporary love songs with the words "girl", "baby", and so forth replaced with "Jesus."

So true it's funny.

[JudasGoat]

their rituals and dogma and beliefs, which we believe to be obsolete.

Irony reigns! :D

[TrackZero]

We believe in Christ as the savior and son of God, so we're united in that... but we believe Catholics separate themselves to some extent by choice with their rituals and dogma and beliefs, which we believe to be obsolete.

And as an agnostic, I feel the same way about the Christian dogma and beliefs. Ain't life fun? ;)

[harle]

Michael Card?

ZvejyvnEidYI may be an atheist, but that was a good song! Keep them coming. ;)

[Rirath]

Irony reigns! :D

And as an agnostic, I feel the same way about the Christian dogma and beliefs. Ain't life fun? ;)

Merely explaining the difference, is all.

We, as a group and individuals, believe Christ satisfied all other conditions on the cross. Thus, the rituals and such followed in the Old Testament are no longer needed (such as some Jewish tradition), and we don't subscribe to doctrine outside of scripture (such as some Catholic tradition).

[Johan]

This whole thread is filled with irony!

http://shawnkent.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/99805321_37ca1f6ada.jpg

I may be an atheist, but that was a good song! Keep them coming. ;)

That was a controversial song when it initially released...good words. Michael Card is known for his creative blend of music and theology.

Here's another one from him..."Joy in the Journey." A song about life.

khrxWs05JSY

[Soap]

Hee hee!

Hahahahaha! You just listened to gospel!

I see what you did there clever guy. Your gospel needs more Chinese Typewriter.

iN4Po1b9c5U

[violentp]

Oh violent, don't taint this already tainted thread with that imbecilic poseur. If anyone defines Fuckwad, he's definitely it. Fucking no-talent ripoff artist.


Ouch. You two have a bad breakup or something?

[Schnoogs]

Creationism isn't a theory.

[Philonious]

Hmm... I do. I don't confess to a priest. I don't take orders from the Pope or the church. I don't believe anyone but Jesus is involved in my salvation, nor do I believe it has any conditions of any kind. I don't pray to saints, I don't believe in purgatory.

We believe in Christ as the savior and son of God, so we're united in that... but we believe Catholics separate themselves to some extent by choice with their rituals and dogma and beliefs, which we believe to be obsolete.

It's like squares and rectangles... Squares are rectangles, but rectangles are not squares. Catholics are Christian, but Christians aren't Catholic. Some god, same scriptures, slightly different beliefs and practices.

Christian defining religious practices as obsolete is ironic... Someone picked and chose elements of religion that suited them and threw out the rest, but are critical of other who would do the same. Also, representing Christians as a unified front doesn't make sense. I am aware of sects of Protestantism that allow homosexual ministers... I'm sure many other sects would collapse from aneurysm on learning that fact. I'd also argue that some sects are MORE backwards than Catholicism (Christian Scientists, Mennonites, the Amish, etc.)

[NSFW]

Creationism isn't a theory.

touche. I fear it is even less than that.

[civil_dead]

Ouch. You two have a bad breakup or something?
Nah, just being a musical douche.

Seriously though, check out some Deathrock from back then. Good stuff.

[Rirath]

Christian defining religious practices as obsolete is ironic...

I am merely explaining the religion. You do not have to like or accept it.

Someone picked and chose elements of religion that suited them and threw out the rest

I would say we didn't pick and choose anything... that's the point.

Christ changed religion in our view. The Old Testament ways of salvation from sin do not apply to most modern Christians, as we have what we call a new and better covenant. That is, Christ's fulfillment and salvation. You may have heard of "The New Testament." We do not simply throw out the Old Testament of course, but we do not sacrifice animals either. We believe Christ fulfilled such conditions. Thus, it wasn't a matter of picking and choosing.

[violentp]

Nah, just being a musical douche.

Seriously though, check out some Deathrock from back then. Good stuff.

PM me some stuff brotha.

[Philonious]

Christ changed religion in our view. The Old Testament ways do not apply to most modern Christians, as we have what we call a new and better covenant. You may have heard of "The New Testament".

As have Catholics... Cause they wrote it. Not God. Not Jesus. But a bunch of old Roman Christians who decided that they needed to form a uniformed Church in order to stop bickering and control the people. That was the birth of organized Christianity: The Catholic Church. Years later Martin Luther came along and decided that the Church was corrupt and started the Protestant movement. Which became as corrupt almost instantly. Then the Europeans got wise and sent all the most dogmatic groups to North America.

[NSFW]

Then the Europeans got wise and sent all the most dogmatic groups to North America.

and then a bunch of stuff happens and we can't show tits. WTF!!!

[cp#]

Wait MLK happened before the Europeans came here? ;)

[walkstheplanes]

Creationism isn't a theory.

Well, any idea can be a theory... It's just not a good theory. In fact, it's a terrible theory with no solid supporting evidence. But it is a theory.

You know what, fuck technicalities. Forget everything I said. Creationism is fantasy.

[Rirath]

As have Catholics... Cause they wrote it. Not God. Not Jesus. But a bunch of old Roman Christians who decided that they needed to form a uniformed Church in order to stop bickering and control the people. That was the birth of organized Christianity: The Catholic Church.

So, basically, you're saying you don't believe that the New Testament was written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and such disciples of Jesus, but by "old Roman Christians" from the Catholic Church? Interesting.

You may want to look into historical accounts of Jesus and his disciples if you don't believe they exist, along with perhaps authorship of the Bible from a historical perspective. Letters sent and so forth. Divine inspiration is another matter entirely, first I think you may want to look into historical record.

[NSFW]

... Creationism is fantasy.

Well that's certainly less than theory.

[NSFW]

So, basically, you're saying you don't believe that the New Testament was written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and such disciples of Jesus, but by "old Roman Christians" from the Catholic Church? Interesting.

You may want to look into historical accounts of Jesus and his disciples if you don't believe they exist, along with perhaps authorship of the Bible from a historical perspective. Letters sent and so forth. Divine inspiration is another matter entirely, first I think you may want to look into historical record.

In think he's portraying the idea that the disciples made the stories but the roman catholics organized the religion. I could be wrong though.

[Philonious]

So, basically, you're saying you don't believe that the New Testament was written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and such disciples of Jesus, but by "old Roman Christians" from the Catholic Church? Interesting.

You may want to look into historical accounts of Jesus and his disciples if you don't believe they exist, along with perhaps authorship of the Bible from a historical perspective. Letters sent and so forth. Divine inspiration is another matter entirely, first I think you may want to look into historical record.

Jesus existed. But the authorship of the Gospels is contested, and they were not necessarily (all) written by individuals who had direct contact Jesus of Nazareth. Paul, who was the first to attribute divine characteristics to Jesus, most certainly never even met the him. John, was more likely more than a single individual. Where the old Roman men come in is that there were many Gospels, and the picked which ones were to be included in the New Testament. They also held votes as to whether Jesus was a Prophet, or in some way divine. JC never claimed divine heritage. Censorship, isn't a modern creation.

[Dafizman]

I'm really glad the theory of Creationism is out there. Google yourself a list of "Creationist Scientists", then have yourself a real good look at the list. Say the names aloud, and while you do, know that those people aren't out there designing bridges based solely their personal beliefs. Those people aren't air traffic controllers who are landing planes with only the "power of faith". Those people are not about to perform open heart surgery based solely on things they learned from the bible. Thank God!

[Rirath]

Where the old Roman men come in is that there were many Gospels, and the picked which ones were to be included in the New Testament.

The Discovery Channel has done some excellent documentaries on the topic.

JC never claimed divine heritage. Censorship, isn't a modern creation.

"And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.’" Matthew 28:18

"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, ‘Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.’" John 17:1-2

"Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.’" John 11:25-27

"Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14

"Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.’" John 14:6


Sounds like he did, to me.

[Philonious]

Sounds like he did, to me.

Citing the Bible as proof of the Bible's accuracy... Sure. Why not?

I'm still hazy as to why New Testament > Old Testament?

And how do we know that Charles Darwin wasn't given insight by God to understand the nature of His Creation? I mean, we all make the most of the talent He has granted us. God gave Darwin wisdom and insight. God gave him the opportunity to sail on the Beagle and collect the data that would lead to his developing the theory of evolution through natural selection. Why doubt it on the basis that an older text tells a different story? If the New Testament trumps the Old Testament, why would the Origin of Species trump the Old Testament? Darwin was a religious man, whose intent was to gather evidence in support of Creationism. His mind was changed from the evidence he gathered.

[Rirath]

Citing the Bible as proof of the Bible's accuracy... Sure. Why not?

Mind telling me what you were citing to say Christ didn't say it, please?

I'm still hazy as to why New Testament > Old Testament?

It's not so much the testament that's greater, it's the covenant. That is, salvation from sin through Christ, rather than animal sacrifice and ritual and whatnot of old. The belief that through Christ God fulfilled this and brought about salvation through His son is a cornerstone of Christianity.

[Scaryfaced]

People still have trouble sighting exact quotes when they've recorded the conversation. I wonder how the gospel writers remembered such exact quotes, seeing as a few never met jesus and most were written a good 30+ years after his death. Divine inspiration is great for the memory! These are the words of our lord. Amen.

[Philonious]

Mind telling me what you were citing to say Christ didn't say it, please?

Look up Saul of Tarsus, Emperor Constantine and the Edict of Milan.

[jeffbax]

No, idiot. That's wrong. Communion is a catholic only thing. Same with all the kneeling and standing up shit.You're being a complete fool, and look stupider as you go.

Ironic post of the day!

Most Protestant Christian denominations that I know of take communion and a whole lot of people kneel to pray. In fact, most encourage people to take communion no matter whether or not they are one particular denomination or not... besides the Catholics of course.

Next time try knowing a little about what you are talking about before yelling at others perhaps? Then again, you do have a tendency to talk completely out of your ass...

Also, Catholicism is a form of Christianity people, you cannot separate them. In fact, Catholicism was for a very long time synonymous with Christianity until the Protestant Reformation.

[violentp]

This thread proves why religion is bad.

[torrefaction]

Ironic post of the day!

Most Protestant Christian denominations that I know of take communion and a whole lot of people kneel to pray. In fact, most encourage people to take communion no matter whether or not they are one particular denomination or not... besides the Catholics of course.

Next time try knowing a little about what you are talking about before yelling at others perhaps? Then again, you do have a tendency to talk completely out of your ass...

Also, Catholicism is a form of Christianity people, you cannot separate them. In fact, Catholicism was for a very long time synonymous with Christianity until the Protestant Reformation.

Well, I was overly harsh in my post towards him, that's true. But he was being completely dismissive of people saying there was a big difference.

Protip:There is (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_capr.htm).

But talk out of my ass? Go fuck yourself. He was basically saying there are no differences between Christian denominations. That's not true, there are wild differences between various sects, and that includes non-denominational churches as well.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi.htm

As I said before, I misspoke on communion, and was referring to transubstantiation. Maybe you could read the rest of my posts before acting like a tool?

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1210240&postcount=88.

Good job trying to call me out I guess, even if you're a failure.

[Philonious]

This thread proves why religion is bad.

I'd argue that this thread demonstrates why closed mindedness and dogmatism leads to conflict.

[violentp]

I'd argue that this thread demonstrates why closed mindedness and dogmatism leads to conflict.

Exactly. There is very little learning in religion. Everyone is correct.

[Philonious]

Exactly. There is very little learning in religion. Everyone is correct.

But people can be equally dogmatic in their non-religious beliefs.

[cp#]

Exactly. There is very little learning in religion. Everyone is correct.

You mean I'm correct, everyone else is wrong ;)

[JoyOfJoys]

Magic Man Dunnit!

[LongStepMantis]

Magic Man Dunnit!

/thread
Nothing to see here folks, this argument trumps all others. ;)

[Johan]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/800px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

Worldwide atheists? 2.35%

This forum? 98.7% atheists (I pulled that one from somewhere!).

It must suck to be so outnumbered! I'm glad you have somewhere to be in the majority! :D

[digitalErich]

I wasn't aware that the poll implied atheism.

I also question how they got to those percentages on that chart, specifically the top 5 or 6 slices.

[Johan]

I wasn't aware that the poll implied atheism.

I wasn't aware I implied that the poll implied that!

Because I didn't.

[violentp]

But people can be equally dogmatic in their non-religious beliefs.

Correct. Difference is that people can be swayed in their non-religious beliefs.

[Johan]

Correct. Difference is that people can be swayed in their non-religious beliefs.

Oh please. Any time you'd like to climb down off that holy hill of yours, feel free! :D

The entire history of theology is centered upon religious people being swayed in their religious faith.

Religion /= immovable force. If it did, then those of you here who mock, deride and insult it wouldn't bother, since it would be immovable! :D

[Philonious]

Correct. Difference is that people can be swayed in their non-religious beliefs.

Psh. One traumatic event can turn a non-believer into a believer and vice versa...

[Johan]

Atlas of worldwide faith. (http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,775969,00.gif)

Interesting for those who are visual learners like myself.

Atheists? About 2.4%, or under 3% of the global population.

The vast majority of the world's population now, and throughout history, has had religious faith. Atheism is the abnormality in human history and society, not faith.

[LongStepMantis]

It must suck to be so outnumbered! I'm glad you have somewhere to be in the majority! :D

That's the beauty of Atheism, at least for me.

It makes it easy to be apathetic towards religious discussion. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone is "lesser than me" or "stupid" for believing. I respect whatever choices someone makes for their own beliefs.

But I don't feel the need to enforce my opinion. If someone thinks I am wrong for thinking that way, it doesn't really matter. It's marvelous. :D

I can be in a room of devout catholics and even if they start telling me how fucked I am, it doesn't matter. I don't believe anything they say, so why would it? :cool:

[violentp]

Psh. One traumatic event can turn a non-believer into a believer and vice versa...

We're discussing sway via discussion, not traumatic experience. A traumatic enough experience and you may find a passion to fuck cows. Stay with me here.

[Philonious]

The entire history of theology is centered upon religious people being swayed in their religious faith.

Religion /= immovable force. If it did, then those of you here who mock, deride and insult it wouldn't bother, since it would be immovable! :D

Or the killing of people who had evidence that their faith was mistaken.

We're discussing sway via discussion, not traumatic experience. A traumatic enough experience and you may find a passion to fuck cows. Stay with me here.

I would never fuck a cow.

[Lint of Death]

Wow! I didn't know there were so proportionately few Jews these days. :(

[Johan]

But I don't feel the need to enforce my opinion. If someone thinks I am wrong for thinking that way, it doesn't really matter. It's marvelous. :D

That's a very liberating place to be. I don't agree with "where" you are, but I like "how" you are while you are there! :)

[violentp]

Oh please. Any time you'd like to climb down off that holy hill of yours, feel free! :D

The entire history of theology is centered upon religious people being swayed in their religious faith.

Religion /= immovable force. If it did, then those of you here who mock, deride and insult it wouldn't bother, since it would be immovable! :D

Honestly J, I don't give a shit. Live and let live is my mantra. I'm just saying I've never met a religious individual that was incorrect (about their faith). Certainly met plenty that saw wrong in others though.

[Johan]

Live and let live is my mantra.

This is what I love about America (or, more broadly, the West). The fact that we're all basically free to choose our own path frees everyone (at least those who are not loons) to live as they see fit without the fear that one group will squash another.

Most places around the world don't allow for that kind of individualistic freedom and choice. In many places, you can't even legally change your religion! Your religion is inextricably intertwined with your nationality.

That's why so many nations around the world see us as a Christian nation. Their own national identities are interwoven with their dominant religion, and their political system is interwoven with their religious system. They see us as they see themselves...rooted in faith...despite the separation we have (and we do, despite the whiners who complain we don't).

[violentp]

This is what I love about America (or, more broadly, the West). The fact that we're all basically free to choose our own path frees everyone (at least those who are not loons) to live as they see fit without the fear that one group will squash another.

Most places around the world don't allow for that kind of individualistic freedom and choice. In many places, you can't even legally change your religion! Your religion is inextricably intertwined with your nationality.

That's why so many nations around the world see us as a Christian nation. Their own national identities are interwoven with their dominant religion, and their political system is interwoven with their religious system.

I do want to experience the other side I must admit. Hence my departure in September. Not for belief but rather for understanding.

[Philonious]

This is what I love about America (or, more broadly, the West). The fact that we're all basically free to choose our own path frees everyone (at least those who are not loons) to live as they see fit without the fear that one group will squash another.

Most places around the world don't allow for that kind of individualistic freedom and choice. In many places, you can't even legally change your religion! Your religion is inextricably intertwined with your nationality.

That's why so many nations around the world see us as a Christian nation. Their own national identities are interwoven with their dominant religion, and their political system is interwoven with their religious system.

Umm, your political system is pretty tied into the fact that you are a Christian nation... At least your president and political figures seem to mention God enough... And invoke His name to further their political agendas.

[LongStepMantis]

This is what I love about America (or, more broadly, the West). The fact that we're all basically free to choose our own path frees everyone (at least those who are not loons) to live as they see fit without the fear that one group will squash another.

Most places around the world don't allow for that kind of individualistic freedom and choice. In many places, you can't even legally change your religion! Your religion is inextricably intertwined with your nationality.

That's why so many nations around the world see us as a Christian nation. Their own national identities are interwoven with their dominant religion, and their political system is interwoven with their religious system. They see us as they see themselves...rooted in faith.

It would help show our diversity if we had a non-Christian president...ummm, ever? When all of our leaders have shown that they are openly Christian, of course people will associate our nation.

And no, Mitt Romney isn't close enough. When we elect a Voodoo priestess president, then we're in business. :D

And that's really likely, let me tell ya. ;)

[Johan]

Umm, your political system is pretty tied into the fact that you are a Christian nation

Careful...atheists deny the Judeo-Christian roots of America pretty vociferously.

And political leaders invoking faith is not the same as religious leaders running the government...which is the way government operates in many nations; particularly Muslim ones, where the true levers of power are religious, not political (the two overlap and intertwine in many such nations).

[Ultima Thulian]

I don't know why I'm gonna post here...maybe it's my rebellious spirit. Or something. But I'll make this short and simple.

Here is what Konrad B. Krauskopf, Late Professor Emeritus of Geochemistry of Stanford University, says on the matter:

The founders of the United States of America insisted on the separation of church and state, a separation that is part of the Constitution. What happens in countries with no such separation, in the past and in the present, testifies to the wisdom of the founders. In 1987 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that teaching creationism in the public schools is illegal because it is a purely religious doctrine. In response, the believer in creationism changed its name to "intelligent design" (ID) without specifying who the designer was or how the design was put into effect. Their sole arument is that life is too complex and diverse to be explained by evolution, when in fact this is precisely what evolution does with overwhelming succes.

The supporters of ID demand it be taught as a science - despite ID's not being based on evidence or subject to test, as all science must be...and call for "balance" in its presentation. But putting evolution and ID on the same footing is absurd because it suggests that they have the same intellectual status. Evolution opens windows to further knowledge; ID shuts them. It would be like equating an encyclopedia with a book whose title is No! and whose pages are blank. To debate ID in the classroom is to give respectability it is not entitled to.

Advocates of ID assert that evolution is an atheistic concept. Yet Charles Darwin, the father of evolution, was a Christian. In addition, the United Methodist Church, the Episcopalian Church, the Lutheran World Federation, Popes Pius XII and John Paul II, and the Central Conference of American Rabbis have all stated that evolution does not conflict with religious belief. In 2005 Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Roman Catholic Church's Pontifical Council for Culture, said, 'we...know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason and becomes prey to fundamentalism. The faithful have the obligation to listen to that which secular modern science has to offer.'

Many people find religious beliefs important in their lives, but such beliefs are not part of science because they are matters of faith with ideas that are meant to be accepted without question. Skepticism, on the other hand, is at the heart of science. Science follows where evidence leads; religion has fixed principles. It is entirely possible, and perhaps most religious people do this, to consult sacred texts for inspiration and guidance while accepting that observation and reason represent the path to another kind of understanding. But religion and science are not interchangeable because their routes and destinations are different, which means science classrooms are not the place to teach religion. To mix the religious and the scientific ways of looking at the world is good for neither, particularly if compulsion is involved.

I'll say five more things:

1. This man is incredibly intelligent and his word has credence.

2. I'm agnostic, in case you were wondering. I was Christian for a good portion of my life at one time though.

3. I'm not saying creationists are dumb or wrong to believe what they believe. But I do think they are mistaken when they wish to put their beliefs on the same level as science. Science and religion are opposites that don't attract, and should be treated as such by both parties.

4. I agree 100% with Konrad.

5. Flying Spaghetti Monster FTW.

[Ultima Thulian]

Also, Let and Let Live? You really said that violent? I know you did I know you did I know you did.

Perhaps it should be, Live and Let Die? Live and Let Die! *awesomeness ensues*

[Johan]

Science and religion are opposites that don't attract, and should be treated as such by both parties.

This is just untrue, both in the present, and historically. The vast majority of Western scientific reason, principles, and thought rest upon the work of people of faith.

The whole concept of science...of a way to rationally, empirically, and objectively study the universe and life...grew out of the belief in the West that a Creator has established a universe of order that could in fact be empirically, rationally, and objectively studied.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more on that point than I do. I can prove it empirically.

Can you see my middle finger? It's pointed at you! :D

[Ultima Thulian]

This is just untrue, both in the present, and historically. The vast majority of Western scientific reason, principles, and thought rest upon the work of people of faith.

The whole concept of science...of a way to rationally, empirically, and objectively study the universe and life...grew out of the belief in the West that a Creator has established a universe of order that could in fact be empirically, rationally, and objectively studied.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more on that point than I do. I can prove it empirically.

Can you see my middle finger? It's pointed at you! :D

I'm not saying they never clashed, I'm saying that should be treated as separate entities and should be treated according to what each one's doctrine, specifics, and history lays out. I apologize for my comment, as after re-reading it it is obvious it wasn't well written. But I trust you understand my point now though.

[violentp]

Also, Let and Let Live? You really said that violent? I know you did I know you did I know you did.

Perhaps it should be, Live and Let Die? Live and Let Die! *awesomeness ensues*

If I knew what let and let live meant, maybe I'd do it. Till then, I'll stick to live and let live. ;)

Don't mistake me though, if that first rule is busted, it all goes to hell.

[Beelzebud]

This is just untrue, both in the present, and historically. The vast majority of Western scientific reason, principles, and thought rest upon the work of people of faith.

The whole concept of science...of a way to rationally, empirically, and objectively study the universe and life...grew out of the belief in the West that a Creator has established a universe of order that could in fact be empirically, rationally studied.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more on that point than I do.

Tell that to Galileo. Tell that to the victims of the inquisitions. Religion has a history of silencing voices they don't agree with.

[Johan]

But I trust you understand my point now though.

I trust you understand my point now...

http://www.wimp.com/p/screwyou.jpg

I kid, I kid! Let me stitch that up for you! ;)

Tell that to Galileo. Tell that to the victims of the inquisitions. Religion has a history of silencing voices they don't agree with.

I would argue what some here have argued repeatedly about Islam; that when religion is used as a vehicle for silencing voices, the religion itself is not to blame, but the people who have hijacked it for selfish purposes.

[Ultima Thulian]

Dood, is that hockey player merely losing his balance or is he really trying to get that guy in the face?

[Beelzebud]

I would argue what some here have argued repeatedly about Islam; that when religion is used as a vehicle for silencing voices, the religion itself is not to blame, but the people who have hijacked it for selfish purposes.

Weather it be Islam or Christianity. Religion is the vehicle and people go along for the ride. When both religions have a history of people who "hijack" them for selfish purposes, I start to lay blame where it belongs: Religion

When you suspend rational thought, it's easy for the fanatics to take over.

[Johan]

Dood, is that hockey player merely losing his balance or is he really trying to get that guy in the face?

NOT SAFE FOR THE WEAK OF STOMACH! (http://www.ubersite.com/m/32313)
Don't believe me? From the link:


The sight was so grizzly that 2 spectators suffered heart attacks and 3 of Malarchuk's teammates vomited while still on the ice.

Weather it be Islam or Christianity or atheism or communism or secularism or capitalism...

Fixed.

It's not just the ideology...it's the people. Every ideology has aspects that can be abused to kill people.

[Citizen Philip]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/800px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

Worldwide atheists? 2.35%

This forum? 98.7% atheists (I pulled that one from somewhere!).

It must suck to be so outnumbered! I'm glad you have somewhere to be in the majority! :D

Humanists never get put on these polls, I think our symbol looks dumb.

[Ultima Thulian]

I'd argue people are responsible for their own actions, BUT when religion is forced and spoonfed (i.e. Sharia law, etc.), then you can't expect people to know better, hence stupid shit that they do. So, in short, I think Beelzebud (how's Satan doin' by the way?) and Johan are both correct, in a sense.

[Beelzebud]

(how's Satan doin' by the way?)

I wouldn't know, I don't believe in that crap.

Beelzebud is a (non)inventive way to say marijuana.

One part Beelzebub. One part Bud. And you have a lame way to say Devil Weed, which is another lame way to say Marijuana.

:D

[Ultima Thulian]

NOT SAFE FOR THE WEAK OF STOMACH! (http://www.ubersite.com/m/32313)
Don't believe me? From the link:

Whoa...damn. Sucks for that guy. Can't believe he lived.

[Ultima Thulian]

I wouldn't know, I don't believe in that crap.

Beelzebud is a (non)inventive way to say marijuana.

One part Beelzebub. One part Bud. And you have a lame way to say Devil Weed, which is another lame way to say Marijuana.

:D

Aw shit...I didn't notice the "d". Huh. Well, enjoy your devil grass. :p

[johnperkins21]

I didn't feel like reading this whole thread, so this may have already been stated by someone.

Evolution is a scientific fact. It happens.

The Theory of Evolution is a set of principles for understanding evolution. You can believe that the Theory of Evolution is wrong, but it's simply wrong to suggest that evolution doesn't exist and that you don't believe in it.

It's like gravity. Gravity exists. The Theory of Gravity suggest testable methods to measure and understand why it happens. You can't just say "I don't believe in gravity" and be regarded as a person with all of their faculties. You'd be Tom Cruise crazy.

[Johan]

Evolution is a scientific fact. It happens.

I'm almost positive nobody else has said that! :D

[johnperkins21]

Also, as others have stated in a round-about way, Creation disagrees more with The Big Bang Theory than the Theory of Evolution. Unless you're taking the Bible literally that God created Man as we are now, you don't necessarily disagree with evolution, just how the universe came to be.

[JoyOfJoys]

Fixed.


I disagree a bit. Atheism only really means one thing (lacking a belief in a god) and does not do or say anything beyond that, the other 'ism's you mention normally have some set of rules or a fundamental work of which it is based, and that is where problems may arise.

[Johan]

Atheism

Stalin.

Mao.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.

[Schnoogs]

Stalin.

Mao.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.


Where as in the case of religion not even a drop of blood has ever been spilt by those who practice it. :D

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Stalin.

Mao.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.

The other bloody tyrant was Hitler, who was religious--and let's not forget The Crusades!

Of course, this is just because Johan's reply offended my atheist sensibilities: I'm an atheist and I volunteer extensively with the mentally disabled.

WHAT NOW, BITCH!? WAN' I SHOULD BUST A NINE IN YO PASTY ASS FOR DISAGREEIN WIT ME? EH? WHUS'SAT? Man, mu'fuggas always keepin a man down

[Siraris]

I'm only on page 5, so maybe someone commented on this already, but I want to get it out before I forget.

Everyone argues about believing in God, and being this religion or that religion. I have seen a few scientists come out and basically say, "We can't prove that God exists, so he doesn't".

I feel that it's like saying "We can't find proof of God, so why even bother believing?". Well, my question for many people would be, "We can't find proof of God, so why NOT bother believing?".

I mean I don't really know what to believe, to be honest. I look at the world and find it incredibly difficult to believe that there wasn't a designer. I mean to the point that I think that people who don't believe in some sort of designer/creator, have some sort of mental malfunction. I'm not saying this in the sense that "You don't believe in God, you must be fucking crazy AND you're going to hell!", but I mean in the sense of the sheer complexity of the universe as well as the evolution/history of the Earth, and all living creatures on it.

Why does matter stay together? Why is it that everything is made from the same basic things, yet everything is so incredibly different? Why do we ask the question whether God exists or not? How is it possible, even with the sheer size of the universe, that any form of complex life appeared on this one planet (that we know of so far) and took the course that we have? If the earth was a boring, barren rock, and there was one life form that kinda crawled around and sucked on the dirt, I could maybe believe that there was no God and it just kind of "happened", but just step back and look at the world and the sheer magnitude of what exists in it AND that it all "works". Seriously.

Anyways, what my point is, why don't we all just believe? I mean, wouldn't it make us all feel better and be happier? If we're right or wrong, we can't really know right now, or potentially, ever. But why do we question it? Why not just say "Ok there may or may not be a God, but let's say there is and go about our lives". Why do people feel the need to try and convince us that there IS no God? All the scientists that go on TV, or write books trying to prove evolution are really trying to prove that there is no God. Richard Dawkins is not trying to argue for evolution, he is literally trying to disprove the existence of God. Why? For what reason?

I don't know if I'm getting my point across, especially since I'm tired as shit and it's almost 3 am. I just have always wondered - even though I believe in a "designer" (not necessarily God/Jesus/Yawe/Adonai etc) - how the Christians who TRULY believe, get to that point. Where they literally have no question whatsoever (at least externally) as to whether God exists. Complete and utter faith. I read an incredible article on Mother Theresa who literally lost contact with God, and questioned her faith to the point of almost giving up the church, and even wanting to commit suicide because she had such a crisis. This woman, who was a literal saint, continued on her path without any sort of connection to God. Even though she had lost this connection, she still had this faith, and I wish I could get it. Like that article posted from Cracked.com, the guy says that there is something in the human brain that presents an incredibly realistic impression of one. I wish I could get that. Are there even really people out there who literally do not question the existence of God, at all?

Life is so complex. Blah.

[Siraris]

Tell that to Galileo. Tell that to the victims of the inquisitions. Religion has a history of silencing voices they don't agree with.

Galileo was an incredibly religious man. As were basically every single great scientific mind in history (Newton, Copernicus, Kepler, Boyle, Faraday, Planck) even Einstein.

[Vandenh]

I'm both. An evolution guy but I do believe that a creator could have created everything and then set it all in motion via something akin to the big bang... I don't think about it often though.

A common opinion. That actually means you are believing in Evolution. Creationism means that you believe in the literal story of creationism in the bible.

BTW if you believe in a designer... you also need to believe in a motive. Why would someone create life and a universe? Science surely?

Why do people feel the need to try and convince us that there IS no God? All the scientists that go on TV, or write books trying to prove evolution are really trying to prove that there is no God.

BTW why do religious people feel the need to justify there is a god anyway? If *you* believe in a god and you are convinced, why do you care about what other people think? I also never understood how real religious people can feel insulted in their belief... the right attitude should be "turn the other cheek" :) or "I believe... if you don't too bad for you". And why do 95% of religious people do not live by their own beliefs/rules? Clean up you own garden before you peek over the fence and start a fight with your evolutionist neighbor.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.

Oh dude.... that is funny. Europe's history is full of religious kings that killed thousands all in the name of religion. Basically the whole of South America was killed under the cover of religion.

[president_fred]

Stalin.

Mao.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.

I thought you said when things go wrong you blame the person not the ism. As in Galileo etc.

[Ancalagon]

Stalin.

Mao.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.

They didnt kill in the name of atheism though. You never heard Stalin saying, "I'm going to kill you because you dont agree with me that there is no god."

Instead, he killed people because he was afraid they would kill him. Had he been sane, he probably wouldnt have done so.

Fear causes all of the problems in this world. I know its cliched because Star Wars says the same, but fear leads to self doubt, anger, hate, ignorance, bigotry, racism and sexism. Yes it is responsible for all that, and no I dont have a reference. The point is, a large part of religion is teaching you to fear god, to fear what is different, to fear others.

Most genocidal crimes are committed because the leader in question feared something, and that fear often comes from religion (Crusades? The current wars?). Remove that, and the killings will either be massively reduced or ceased entirely.

Keep your religion, and your bigotry, and your judgment.

[IrishWhiskey]

Atlas of worldwide faith. (http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,775969,00.gif)

Interesting for those who are visual learners like myself.

Atheists? About 2.4%, or under 3% of the global population.

The vast majority of the world's population now, and throughout history, has had religious faith. Atheism is the abnormality in human history and society, not faith.You're intentionally creating a false duality there. Its not a matter of someone is either atheist or has faith, its faith or not faith. And in that regard its closer to 15% of atheist, agnostic, or others who don't believe in a higher power. In fact I'd argue that atheist is a faith (faith in a lack of God without direct evidence) whereas only agnostics or those who are indifferent really lack faith.

Anyway, I'm actually curious where China fits in on this. China has 1.3 billion people. Christianity has 2.1 billion (according to Wiki). Assuming there aren't huge numbers of Christians, Muslims or Hindus in China, where do they fit into those charts? And why is the total number of people in each religion or category less than the total of people on Earth (6.68 billion)? Who isn't getting counted?

[Esquilax1138]

I feel that it's like saying "We can't find proof of God, so why even bother believing?". Well, my question for many people would be, "We can't find proof of God, so why NOT bother believing?".

Do you believe in Santa Claus, Tinkerbell and Frodo? Sasquatch, Vampires, zombies, werewolves, aliens. Why not? Just cause there is no proof, why not believe? I think everyone should go around saying they believe in things that don't exist. Cthulhu should be a good start for everyone.


Why does matter stay together?

Gravity, magnetic or chemical attraction, plenty of provable, repeatable scientific theroies that can be independantly verified by any other scientiest.


Why is it that everything is made from the same basic things, yet everything is so incredibly different?

Evolution can explain that, how a single cell can grow into a complex creature. Most living things share the same basic building blocks of life just are put together different. Think that is what this thread was about at one point too.


How is it possible, even with the sheer size of the universe, that any form of complex life appeared on this one planet (that we know of so far) and took the course that we have?

Simple random chance, if you have a large enough sample of planets, and the universe is FULL of galaxies, you are bound to end up with various kinds of life. It's not like we've really explored our own small solar system, never mind the billions of other systems to make a judgment of we are the only life period.


If the earth was a boring, barren rock, and there was one life form that kinda crawled around and sucked on the dirt, I could maybe believe that there was no God and it just kind of "happened", but just step back and look at the world and the sheer magnitude of what exists in it AND that it all "works". Seriously.

Seriously, what? There are very few things that happen on the earth that can not be explained by science. I can look at the beautiful clouds and say, wow those are amazing, but I know they were caused by evaporation and condensation of the available water, moved by the air currents into the nice shapes I see. I don't see god in that at all sorry.


Anyways, what my point is, why don't we all just believe? I mean, wouldn't it make us all feel better and be happier?

Ok, I pick Jedi, I really would like to believe in Jedi, and when I die I will join the living force, and be able to come back as a cool blue glowy. It makes me happy, Why don't you believe it too? Or just look at Tom Cruise for why we don't all just believe what someone says, cause chances are very high they are totally full of shit. It's good to question what people say, think for YOURSELF.


If we're right or wrong, we can't really know right now, or potentially, ever. But why do we question it? Why not just say "Ok there may or may not be a God, but let's say there is and go about our lives".

What god, and who gets to decide? Maybe I don't want to just go along with what is "the norm" Maybe I like to ask questions, and find out for myself and not just go on blind faith. Why don't you worship Cthulhu? and if was only so easy that we would all just go along with our lives. As long as you go along with the ruling religion in the area, otherwise you run the risk of being killed or put in jail for your non-beliefs. I think the Taliban don't really let others get along with their lives, and ask gay people how easy it is to go along if they are in a religious community?


Why do people feel the need to try and convince us that there IS no God? All the scientists that go on TV, or write books trying to prove evolution are really trying to prove that there is no God. Richard Dawkins is not trying to argue for evolution, he is literally trying to disprove the existence of God. Why? For what reason?

Cause there is no proof of a god at all, the burden of proof should be on the god guys. Science has a lot of thinge pretty well covered. Religion just says "Cause that's the way it is, belive it and never try to look into things yourself"


Life is so complex. Blah.

Yes, yes it is, so is science.

What would solve this all is if god could spare us a few minutes of his time, and being omnipotent that should be no troubles. Have god come down to earth to say "Hi guys, I'm still here, just making sure you not all killed yourselves yet". Maybe have him go on Larry King and make a galaxy in the palm of his hand to show off those leet creationist skillz.

I'd be an instant convert. I just need some proof.

[Krispy]

It is pitiful to see how some people are raised to think linearly. Siraris is essentially asking me to stop questioning the validity of his existential theory and let the simple fact that it is convenient be enough to accept it. I am afraid that would be a regression in comprehensive thought.

What would solve this all is if god could spare us a few minutes of his time, and being omnipotent that should be no troubles. Have god come down to earth to say "Hi guys, I'm still here, just making sure you not all killed yourselves yet". Maybe have him go on Larry King and make a galaxy in the palm of his hand to show off those leet creationist skillz.

In philosophical text, God is often synonymous with "ultimate truth." The idea being that it isn't an entity that can manifest itself but merely the glue to everything, the ultimate equation, the source, ect. Defining God would then be unraveling the universe. Since I am a Cosmicist, I humbly believe that to be impossible and by extension it would be impossible to understand God by any religious standard. Kind of a metaphysical Catch-22.

[mister_slim]

I like chaos.

[Ancalagon]

[quote]All the scientists that go on TV, or write books trying to prove evolution are really trying to prove that there is no God./quote]

No, scientists just want to determine whether their theories are true or not.

You just equate evolution with their being no god, but thats not necessarily the case. If you would rather believe that god made us out of nothing at all, and woman out of a rib, then thats up to you. I'll just believe in the crazy idea that we evolved over millions of years from more primative life forms, and are the pinnacle of evolution as far as cognitive ability goes (bees, ants and other insects could be said to be better social creatures after all). Backed up by a few centuries of scientific studies, but scientific theories are just theories right? The same kinds of theory that makes your computer work, and probably provided you with medicine without out which you wouldnt be alive. Bah, theories, who needs them?

[Johan]

Where as in the case of religion not even a drop of blood has ever been spilt by those who practice it. :D

A very valid point.

Man, mu'fuggas always keepin a man down

That's what mu'fuggas do! Don't act so surprised! :D

I thought you said when things go wrong you blame the person not the ism. As in Galileo etc.

Exactly, which is why I pointed out two of history's most infamous atheists...ANY belief system can be abused, because people use their beliefs to do whatever the hell they want.

Remove that, and the killings will either be massively reduced or ceased entirely.

Remove religion from the world and NOTHING would change (in terms of the brutality of man toward man in history) except the excuse for why people do horrible things.

Khmer Rouge. Another example. Stamp out religion? Doesn't matter.

You're intentionally creating a false duality there.

I didn't create anything. That's not my atlas, and I certainly don't decide for people what they will believe.

[Philonious]

Remove religion from the world and NOTHING would change (in terms of the brutality of man toward man in history) except the excuse for why people do horrible things.

Do you really think not? The Inquisition? The Crusades? The Holocaust? Waco? Heaven's Gate? How often has violence been condoned because it was God's work? Religion isn't the only way to whip people into a frenzy, but it is a handy one... And as a politician abusing people's beliefs I don't even have to instill the dogmatic beliefs used to manipulate the people. They are ready made. I have no problem's with religion, but dogma is the devil... Belief without question. Faith does not imply not questioning your beliefs, it is believing despite the questions. Dogma is closedmindedness, and makes you easy to manipulate. I press the God button, and thou shalt dance and kill and judge.

God said THOU SHALT NOT KILL. How can anyone who supports any war claim to be Christian? If you are truly Christian, and believe in the teaching's of Christ how can you support the death penalty? Support the bombing of abortion clinics? Do onto others. Turn the other cheek. Thou shalt not kill. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone? Ring any bells? Wait those don't work out for you? Could have sworn they were in the handbook. You mean that your authority is higher than His..?

The other thing is that you can tell me that there is a God with 100% certainty. That your beliefs are the only ones that matter. Why? Faith you say. Faith in a book that was written about 1700 years ago. Fine, well the Muslims have faith. The Jews have faith. They have scripture, beliefs. Hell, the Scientologists have faith. They believe 100% that they are right. You have Jesus? The have Abraham, Moses, Mohammud and L. Ron. Who is right? What is your evidence? Someone who claimed they were a prophet of God... What would happen to them today? What allows you with 100% certainty that you are backing the right horse? Have you explored other religions? Seen what they have to sell?

If your religion leads you to live a good life, then fine. If your religious beliefs lead you to judge or harm other, you're practicing wrong. My belief in science will never be used to justify my shooting someone in the face... How many more seconds before someone's belief in their God leads them do so?

[JoyOfJoys]

Stalin.

Mao.

Two of history's most famous atheists, and two of history's bloodiest tyrants.

Totalitarian Communists who treated their idea of the state like a fundamentalist would their God, in a dogmatic and absolute manner, crushing all those who stood in it's way. Their atheism had no part to play because it did nothing to guide their warped minds.


Remove religion from the world and NOTHING would change (in terms of the brutality of man toward man in history) except the excuse for why people do horrible things.

Actually, (Edit: In my opinion, I should of said that first) removing the faulty thought processes that allows people to be satisfied with religion would change things, removing religion would be a side effect. So many people place value on faith and put certainties in where unknowns should remain because it's uncomfortable, making them easier to manipulate, and this is engraved into peoples minds before they have developed mentally beyond even some primates, which is detestable.
This wont destroy all of the worlds horrors, it just means that people have a chance to avoid them. As for the horrors that do happen, well.... they would be thought out better? :P

[torrefaction]

Atheists who claim religion as the source of violence are being blind. Especially atheists who believe in evolution.

It's very simple. Man is a violent creature. We WON the big challenge....Survival of the fittest. And we did that by being more inventive at brutality than any other creature out there. Civilization is our attempt at putting a leash on our violence. The law is our recognizing that many people won't be able to resist the base temptation to achieve his goals through violence.

Man is not innately good, unfortunately. It's something we have to recognize, oppose, and constantly strive to be better than our base instincts.

[TrackZero]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/800px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

Worldwide atheists? 2.35%

This forum? 98.7% atheists (I pulled that one from somewhere!).

It must suck to be so outnumbered! I'm glad you have somewhere to be in the majority! :D

I'd take that chart with a major grain of salt, considering Confucianism isn't even a religion. (As I was summarily explained to by a number of Chinese coworkers at one point.) It's just philosophical system, at best.

[Philonious]

Atheists who claim religion as the source of violence are being blind.

Not 'THE' source of violence. But 'A' source of intolerance, which in turn leads to violence. Values and beliefs generally change in time. If you look at how views homosexuality have changed over the past few decades you'll notice this. Hell, lets be even less controversial and choose the changing role of women in society. The problem with dogmatic belief of any kind is that the individuals who hold them are resistant to change... And this keeps them behind the time and can often lead to conflict. Religion is incredibly guilty of this.

Admitting that the Bible may have gotten a thing or two wrong does not make you a bad Christian. It is just admitting that the word of your God was filtered through a human or two, and unfortunately man is flawed. Martin Luther questioned the Catholic Church... And he was right to. It was corrupt. The Bible says we were placed at the center of Creation.

Jesus preached tolerance, but when was the last time someone help up a Bible in order to reinforce THAT principle? The Bible is, unfortunately, held up to justify the evil of man as righteousness, instead of being used as example of what it means to be good.

[torrefaction]

Jesus preached tolerance, but when was the last time someone help up a Bible in order to reinforce THAT principle? The Bible is, unfortunately, held up to justify the evil of man as righteousness, instead of being used as example of what it means to be good.

I bet you feel like you're being pretty clever here. But you're wrong. You're just viewing Christianity through a historical filter of what they've done wrong. I know a TON of people who are Christian, who for the most part, live up to the new testament pretty well.

And homosexuality and women's rights ignore the point. We're a young country. You only have to look as far back as the Roman Empire to see that man is innately violent. They had very few of our precepts about homosexuality and women (Although, granted women didn't have the right to vote, this wasn't a source of much violence that I'm aware of.)

I'd say money is a much larger source of violence than any of the other factors combined.

With, without...and after all, it's what the fightings all about.

[Johan]

Religion isn't the only way to whip people into a frenzy, but it is a handy one.

Exactly right...it's not the only way to justify violence. Remove religion, and other justifications come into play.

belief in science will never be used to justify my shooting someone in the face.

Belief in science, and an absence of belief in a God and/or a moral order to the universe, IS used to justify the murder of over a million babies a year in the United States...3,000+ EVERY DAY, in ONE country. You can call them "fetuses" if it makes you feel any better, but it's a damn baby.

In the absence of religion or its moral foundation, science is used to justify heinous behavior far beyond the behavior of supposed "believers" who committed evil acts in the past.

Also, without any religious basis for deciding morality, who are you (who is anyone) to determine that acts committed in the past in the name of religion were wrong? If we are truly the product of natural evolution, with no higher power to answer to, then why the hell would it be wrong to exterminate others if they stand in the way of your own DNA being propagated?

Survival of the fittest! Natural selection! Exterminate the brutes!

[digitalErich]

I was waiting for someone to bust out the whole religion=morality. There is no morality without religion, I just love it. :rolleyes:

Morality can exist independent of, and without religion.

[Siraris]

Not 'THE' source of violence. But 'A' source of intolerance, which in turn leads to violence. Values and beliefs generally change in time. If you look at how views homosexuality have changed over the past few decades you'll notice this. Hell, lets be even less controversial and choose the changing role of women in society. The problem with dogmatic belief of any kind is that the individuals who hold them are resistant to change... And this keeps them behind the time and can often lead to conflict. Religion is incredibly guilty of this.

Admitting that the Bible may have gotten a thing or two wrong does not make you a bad Christian. It is just admitting that the word of your God was filtered through a human or two, and unfortunately man is flawed. Martin Luther questioned the Catholic Church... And he was right to. It was corrupt. The Bible says we were placed at the center of Creation.

Jesus preached tolerance, but when was the last time someone help up a Bible in order to reinforce THAT principle? The Bible is, unfortunately, held up to justify the evil of man as righteousness, instead of being used as example of what it means to be good.

People are the source of intolerance, not religion. Religion at its heart (at least most religions) tries to convey morality and goodness, not hatred and intolerance.

I find it very frustrating to follow modern religion because it's been so skewed over thousands of years, that we can't know what the "truth" is. People change words and phrases to say what they want, not what they originally said. Hell, look at the new testament. It was a book compiled by a group of men to convey what THEY wanted, leaving out what they deemed unecessary to what they were trying to accomplish. For thousands of years people thought that Judas killed Jesus, but then we find the gospel of Judas, and it clearly states that Jesus TOLD Judas to kill him.

You have to wonder what truths have been lost in history. But at the end of the day, I think that all humans are inherently good. I think any parent, or person who has witnessed a baby grow, will agree that we are born completely good. It is the influence of others on that child which makes people "bad" or "evil". I think that's one of the parts of life, to strive for good not only for ourselves, but to teach our children as well. It's our responsibility.

[Johan]

Morality can exist independent of, and without religion.

Absolutely right...evolutionary morality. Survival of the fittest.

If we are simply a product of natural forces, there is absolutely no basis for most morality, besides the "our local society needs some basic rules to function."

Survival of the fittest, to pass along one's DNA. The rest of the world, beyond our own borders? Why give a shit? Survival, baby...survival is the key. Pass along your DNA.

[Philonious]

I'd say money is a much larger source of violence than any of the other factors combined.

I'd agree that money, land and resources are generally the real sources of aggression. But you don't think that ideological differences can't play a part? Because there isn't enough money on the planet to get me to blow myself up or fly a plane into a building. There are plenty of 'reasons' behind the many atrocities of man, but religion isn't blameless. Even if it is abusing the religious beliefs of others by invoking your/their own righteousness... A lot of evil has been done in the name of God. Even if he was just the handiest excuse to do so.

My point about Christians willfully ignoring Christ's teachings of pacifism and tolerance holds. I honestly think that religion gets a bad rap thanks mainly to fringe groups... Like those that who abortion clinics or protest the funerals of homosexual soldiers. But the hypocrisy doesn't end with the fundamentalists. Christ preaches to turn the other cheek, and yet Christian nations have almost always been at war. Christ preaches to love thy neighbor, but the Bible is held up to demonstrate their evil.

Christians who believe in God, go to Church and lead good lives aren't the problem. But those who judge and kill (for any reason), and use the Bible as justification for their behaviour are hypocrites. Plain and simple. Tolerance. Pacifism. Those are Christian values.

[Johan]

I'd also love for someone to explain to me how the fucking hell the information on DNA would be possible evolutionarily.

Univ. of Arkansas. (http://researchfrontiers.uark.edu/6284.php)

"One gram of DNA, which when dry would occupy a volume of approximately one cubic centimeter, can store as much information as approximately one trillion CDs."

Now, not only does it contain an immense amount of information, beyond what anyone can really even fathom...it contains MEANINGFUL information, not just random garbage.

Yeah...that evolved! Hahahaha! Geniuses. Let's see you replicate that kind of information evolutionarily.

Adaptation (minor changes within species)? Yes.
Evolution (change from one species to another)? Yeah...right.
Life/DNA with no intelligent Creator behind it? I don't think so. If you can create a trillion CDs worth of meaningful information through a natural process, prove it. Otherwise, your "theory" requires as much faith as anyone else's.

[Philonious]

Absolutely right...evolutionary morality. Survival of the fittest.

If we are simply a product of natural forces, there is absolutely no basis for most morality, besides the "our local society needs some basic rules to function."

Survival of the fittest, to pass along one's DNA.

That is absolute crap. I have no belief in any god or higher power and I treat others with respect. I don't steal nor do I advocate violence for any reason other than self-defense. Why? Because I understand the consequences of my actions and take responsibility for them. Not because I fear punishment by the authorities or the ultimate judgment of a higher authority, but because I treat others with the same respect I expect them to treat me.

Just because the environmental that factors that favored the transmission of our genetic material is what got us here, doesn't mean that we are slaves to that same process. We have evolved a wonderfully complex mind that allows insight into our own behaviour and the behaviour of others. This insight and understanding should be more than enough to guide our behaviour in positive ways.

[Beelzebud]

Galileo was an incredibly religious man. As were basically every single great scientific mind in history (Newton, Copernicus, Kepler, Boyle, Faraday, Planck) even Einstein.

"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene....No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." --Albert Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." --Albert Einstein

What an odd thing for a believer to say... Einstein considered himself an agnostic.

Every single great scientific mind in history was a believer? Really?

Neils Bohr, Paul Dirac, Richard Feynman, Steve Weinberg, Albert Einstein, and a myriad of others would disagree...

As to the whole argument that you can't have morals without religion, it just makes me laugh. When someone says that they are basically saying that without a supernatural father figure, they would be completely immoral.

[digitalErich]

If we are simply a product of natural forces, there is absolutely no basis for most morality, besides the "our local society needs some basic rules to function."
yeah, besides that...but that's not really important, right? :rolleyes:

It's not like the advent of society beyond tribes and civilization were a major turning point for the human race.

[Johan]

As to the whole argument that you can't have morals without religion, it just makes me laugh.

Interesting...I'd love to know who said that, in fact! :rolleyes:

Reading comprehension for the loss. Bunch of unevolved idiots.

Of course you can have "morality" without religious faith. The ONLY logical morality without religion, however, would be evolutionary morality. If evolution is the rule of the universe, then the only people I need any kind of moral concern for are those in my immediate social order where I need a basic moral order to survive. Other than that, the moral order of the day...the year...the millenium...and all of eternity is to pass along MY DNA and be sure that OTHERS do not.

yeah, besides that...but that's not really important, right? :rolleyes:.

No, it's not very important. If you truly believe in evolution, you have no basis for caring about the welfare of those beyond your local society. In fact, you should be about lessening others' ability to reproduce and pass along their own DNA.

But...that's not what atheists/evolution-ists do, is it? Why not? Because imprinted within every person on earth is a basic understanding of God's moral order, not a natural/evolutionary order.

[The Bashar]

Absolutely right...evolutionary morality. Survival of the fittest.

If we are simply a product of natural forces, there is absolutely no basis for most morality, besides the "our local society needs some basic rules to function."

Survival of the fittest, to pass along one's DNA. The rest of the world, beyond our own borders? Why give a shit? Survival, baby...survival is the key. Pass along your DNA.


That is for very basic animals. The more intellectual capacity the more complex social behaviour can be seen. For example wolves hunt in packs because one wolf alone cannot take down a deer. However, if one wolf tries to steal the kill his ostracized from the group and will die without the pack. Morality is a product of social behaviour between members of the same species. The survival of the pack is more important than the survival of the individual. Also, the survival of your family members is important as well as they share the same genes as you, so a wolf will protect its brothers and sisters, because if they survive to pass their genes, some of his are there as well.

I've always seen religion as the documentation of morality which is already known. Most of today's morality and laws come from the Romans and the Greeks. Most their laws hardly have basis in a holy scripture. Human morality comes from human interaction and learning what is allowed by the greater group. Almost of religions have a message of peace and respect for fellow man because they are all human religions and share a similar basis.

Simply spouting survival of the fittest is to take us back 90 years where people used it as an excuse for racial superiority and completely disregarded all the scientific proof to the contrary. Much in the same way people of faith used their holy books to tout themselves as the chosen of their patron deity to the detriment of others.