Sony's NPD Analysis

[bapenguin]

Everyone joins in on the fun!
PlayStation by the Numbers - December 2007

PlayStation® platforms had a great holiday season, based on NPD December 2007 sales data:

Hardware Momentum (PS3, PS2 and PSP)

* December 2007 was the biggest month for PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) since launch, with 798K hardware units sold in December; this represents an increase of 60% over December of last year. With upcoming titles like Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, Devil May Cry 4, Burnout Paradise, and HAZE as well as current momentum for Blu-ray, there is a great deal of enthusiasm for the PS3 as we enter the new year.
* PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) continues to experience strong sales momentum with a new sleek design and the availability of entertainment packs. In December, 1.1 million PSP hardware units were sold; this is an 87% increase in sales over the previous month. Also, with our new partnership with Skype™ and great new games around the corner, such as God of War: Chains of Olympus, Patapon and Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII, consumer excitement will only continue to grow.
* With a current library of nearly 1,500 games, the PlayStation®2 (PS2) also had an excellent month in December with hardware unit sales reaching 1.1 million units. Also, the PS2 sold more software units than any other console on the market.
* PlayStation total hardware revenue was $714 million in December; surpassing the total hardware revenue of Microsoft and Nintendo.

Software Momentum (PS3, PS2 and PSP)

* PS2 Guitar Hero III was the 3rd best-selling game this holiday season across all platforms with 2.7 million units sold from October through December. Also, the PS2 version of Guitar Hero III is the best-selling version since the launch of the title.

* PlayStation total software revenue in December was $822 million, sales nearly doubled compared to last month's sales.

* PlayStation platforms had three software titles in the top ten list across all consoles for the month of December: Guitar Hero III for PS2 sold 800K units, Madden NFL 08 for PS2 sold 655K units and Call of Duty 4 on PS3 sold 522K units.

[CaptStu]

Yawn. Hey Sony, give me a ring when you have something impressive to say.

[Vandenh]

* PlayStation total hardware revenue was $714 million in December; surpassing the total hardware revenue of Microsoft and Nintendo.

Hmmm... can Nintendo also add Wii and DS together?

[KidCactus]

Hmmm... can Nintendo also add Wii and DS together?
I thought that was what they compared it to?

[Johan]

* December 2007 was the biggest month for PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) since launch, with 798K hardware units sold in December; this represents an increase of 60% over December of last year.

* PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) continues to experience strong sales...In December, 1.1 million PSP hardware units were sold; this is an 87% increase in sales over the previous month.

* PS2 Guitar Hero III was the 3rd best-selling game this holiday season across all platforms with 2.7 million units sold from October through December. Also, the PS2 version of Guitar Hero III is the best-selling version since the launch of the title.

That's pretty impressive!!

Still...the gap is widening between the PS3 and 360 and/or Wii. For the PS3, better than last year, or last month, is not good enough.

[Haemorrhage]

* PlayStation total hardware revenue was $714 million in December; surpassing the total hardware revenue of Microsoft and Nintendo.

Ya, I call bullshit on this as well. Nintendo is killing everyone in total hardware sales right now.

Sony Nintendo
PS2: 1.1 million DS: 2.47 million
PSP: 1.06 million Wii: 1.35 million
PS3: 797.6K

= 2.96 million = 3.85 million

And those totals are hardware sales, not revenue as Sony presented. Correct me if I am wrong, but I assume the DS and the Wii make a better relative profit per console than the PSP or the PS3 (maybe not the PS2 now).

edit: my little chart didn't translate as well as expected, ah well, you get the point.

[Nodus]

Well the Wii and DS are selling at a profit for Nintendo no doubt. The Ps3 is still selling at a loss and the PsP, well I'd imagine its slightly into the black or better. Its been redesigned and in the last 1.5 years has really picked up steam despite stiff competition from the big N.

If all else fails, the Ps2 is likely racking in some black to help cut slack off the red the PS3 tracks in.

[KidCactus]

Ya, I call bullshit on this as well. Nintendo is killing everyone in total hardware sales right now.
But it feels like you're calling bullshit on something they didn't say; they didn't say units sold or relative profit per console.

[Kamalot]

Every cloud has a silver lining...

[Telefrog]

Hilarious! I really liked how they just stopped talking about the PS3 after the first paragraph. Not only that, but what they said in that paragraph boiled down to "our sales sucked less than last December."

[Haemorrhage]

But it feels like you're calling bullshit on something they didn't say; they didn't say units sold or relative profit per console.

They said revenue. Do you want the definition of revenue?

Revenue
Definition 1

"For a company, this is the total amount of money received by the company for goods sold or services provided during a certain time period."

total amount = gross profits from hardware sold.

Is that more clear now?

[Gorvi]

They said revenue. Do you want the definition of revenue?

Revenue
Definition 1

"For a company, this is the total amount of money received by the company for goods sold or services provided during a certain time period."

total amount = gross profits from hardware sold.

Is that more clear now?
Actually, revenue just means money brought in, that's before costs/profits come in to play.

[KidCactus]

Actually, revenue just means money brought in, that's before costs/profits come in to play.
What he said.

[Haemorrhage]

Actually, revenue just means money brought in, that's before costs/profits come in to play.

Sorry, I worded it wrong. I was getting ahead of myself in my financial analysis.

What he said.

Are you trying to make a point here? How do you view the breakdown of the numbers?

[Telefrog]

total amount = gross profits from hardware sold.

Is that more clear now?

Gorvi already covered it, but you couldn't be more wrong about your definition of revenue.

My company, for example, sells a good amount of stuff per year at cost just to show "revenue" or "financial movement" to the stockholders. Almost every big business does a bit of it on purpose.

It is not profit, however.

[KidCactus]

Are you trying to make a point here? How do you view the breakdown of the numbers?
The point I was trying to make was the numbers you presented doesn't have anything to do with revenue, which was what you were calling bullshit on.

[Haemorrhage]

Well apparently my understanding of revenue was incorrect. Therefore, as the apologetic Canadian, I'm sorry for stirring up the pot and everyone get back to work.

[asimonk]

So the PS2 continues to be Sony's gaming behemoth.

The PS3 is probably the best Blue-Ray player on the market and with its other media center features, a must have home theater device.

[KidCactus]

Well apparently my understanding of revenue was incorrect. Therefore, as the apologetic Canadian, I'm sorry for stirring up the pot and everyone get back to work.
I'm kinda glad it was YOU that got the understanding wrong, first I though it was me, since English isn't my native language. :p

[EternalGamer]

So the PS2 continues to be Sony's gaming behemoth.

The PS3 is probably the best Blue-Ray player on the market and with its other media center features, a must have home theater device.

People can't handle talking about platforms' successes independently. It prevents them from doing the stupid "sports fan" rivalry thing with one another. In the world of online videogame forums, the economy of the videogame market is a zero sum game. Only one company and one product can be successful. All the others are automatically failures because they aren't that product.

Thankfully for Sony and its investors, Sony is a company in the real world, not the one of internet forums. Their success is not dependent upon crushing all competition as if they were involved in a football rivarly.

[Haemorrhage]

I'm kinda glad it was YOU that got the understanding wrong, first I though it was me, since English isn't my native language. :p

Haha, Canadian is my first language, I guess that was the problem as well. We don't bother calculating revenue in our businesses up here. ;)

[asimonk]

People can't handle talking about platforms' successes independently. Don't you know that this is a apparently a zero sum game? Only one company and one product can be successful. All the others are automatically failures because they aren't that product.

Well Sony is stuck in a zero sum game of its own products. It can't kill the PS2 because it has such a strong install base and it still produces massive sales which in turn, makes them giant piles of money. Its also probably fair to say its eating into PS3 sales. Most of the time with the PS3, the media center features are touted as much, if not more, than its gaming capabilities.

And it is very possible to have more than one successful console. Granted one is always going to be on top in terms of sales and install base, but its far from a one console to rule them all scenario.

[agentgray]

Haven't used this in a while:

http://www.nintendaddio.com/img/spindoctors.jpg

Edit: and I love how bap didn't consider their press release as news. Ha.

[Gorvi]

My eyes! You bastard, what have you done?!

[absolut taco]

I'm kinda glad it was YOU that got the understanding wrong, first I though it was me, since English isn't my native language. :p
Bra gjort!

[absolut taco]

Still...the gap is widening between the PS3 and 360 and/or Wii. For the PS3, better than last year, or last month, is not good enough.
Johan, you saying the same exact thing in thread after thread is getting boring. You don't need to rain on Sony's parade because...it's not that sunny to begin with.

[DylonCorp]

Bra gjort!

What the hell? I think he's having a stroke!

[jadkins555]

* PlayStation platforms had three software titles in the top ten list across all consoles for the month of December: Guitar Hero III for PS2 sold 800K units, Madden NFL 08 for PS2 sold 655K units and Call of Duty 4 on PS3 sold 522K units

Am I missing something? I don't see COD4 (PS3) on the top 10 list:

Top 10 SW Sales
360 CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE ACTIVISION (CORP) NOV 2007 MATURE (M) *1 1.47 million
WII SUPER MARIO GALAXY NINTENDO OF AMERICA NOV 2007 EVERYONE (E) 2 1.40 million
PS2 GUITAR HERO III: LEGENDS OF ROCK ACTIVISION (CORP) OCT 2007 TEEN (T) *3 1.25 million
WII PLAY W/ REMOTE NINTENDO OF AMERICA FEB 2007 EVERYONE (E) 4 1.08 million
360 ASSASSIN'S CREED UBISOFT NOV 2007 MATURE (M) *5 893.7 K
360 HALO 3 MICROSOFT (CORP) SEP 2007 MATURE (M) *6 742.7 K
NDS BRAIN AGE 2: MORE TRAINING IN MINUTES A NINTENDO OF AMERICA AUG 2007 EVERYONE (E) 7 659.5 K
PS2 MADDEN NFL 08 ELECTRONIC ARTS AUG 2007 EVERYONE (E) 8 655.2 K
360 GUITAR HERO III: LEGENDS OF ROCK ACTIVISION (CORP) OCT 2007 TEEN (T) 9 624.6 K
WII MARIO AND SONIC: OLYMPIC GAMES SEGA OF AMERICA NOV 2007 EVERYONE (E) 10 613.0 K

[Zanzibar]

Oh brother, now I've seen everything.

PSP costs more than the DS. PS3 costs more than the Wii. And the PS2 continues to keep on selling.

So they spin it as making more revenue? That's fabulous, geniuses, but your costs are more as well, and you're selling about a THIRD as many units as Nintendo.

Holy fuck, Kevin Bacon is running their PR department.
http://images.dawgsports.com/images/admin/Kevin_Bacon_Animal_House.jpg
"REMAIN CALM!!! ALL IS WELL!!!"


EDIT: Jadkins, that's hilarious, you've found another Sony gem. They're not saying the SONY VERSION made the top ten, they're saying that one of the titles in the top ten was ALSO on the PS3. They're counting CoD4, even though it's the X360 version that made the top 10, not the PS3 version. Freakin' hysterical!!!

EDIT 2: Hell, I'm surprised they didn't include Assassin's Creed as well, then.

[Kamalot]

Am I missing something? I don't see COD4 (PS3) on the top 10 list:

Top 10 SW Sales
360 CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE ACTIVISION (CORP) NOV 2007 MATURE (M) *1 1.47 million
WII SUPER MARIO GALAXY NINTENDO OF AMERICA NOV 2007 EVERYONE (E) 2 1.40 million
PS2 GUITAR HERO III: LEGENDS OF ROCK ACTIVISION (CORP) OCT 2007 TEEN (T) *3 1.25 million
WII PLAY W/ REMOTE NINTENDO OF AMERICA FEB 2007 EVERYONE (E) 4 1.08 million
360 ASSASSIN'S CREED UBISOFT NOV 2007 MATURE (M) *5 893.7 K
360 HALO 3 MICROSOFT (CORP) SEP 2007 MATURE (M) *6 742.7 K
NDS BRAIN AGE 2: MORE TRAINING IN MINUTES A NINTENDO OF AMERICA AUG 2007 EVERYONE (E) 7 659.5 K
PS2 MADDEN NFL 08 ELECTRONIC ARTS AUG 2007 EVERYONE (E) 8 655.2 K
360 GUITAR HERO III: LEGENDS OF ROCK ACTIVISION (CORP) OCT 2007 TEEN (T) 9 624.6 K
WII MARIO AND SONIC: OLYMPIC GAMES SEGA OF AMERICA NOV 2007 EVERYONE (E) 10 613.0 K

It looks like the claim goes something along the lines of this...

'Games that are available on Playstation Platforms made their way into the top ten games sold, even though it may not have been the Playstation version of the game that made it into the top 10...'

[bapenguin]

Haven't used this in a while:

http://www.nintendaddio.com/img/spindoctors.jpg

Edit: and I love how bap didn't consider their press release as news. Ha.

I didn't consider Microsoft's either. THere's no point in posting each company's respective PR spin.

[Telefrog]

EDIT: Jadkins, that's hilarious, you've found another Sony gem. They're not saying the SONY VERSION made the top ten, they're saying that one of the titles in the top ten was ALSO on the PS3. They're counting CoD4, even though it's the X360 version that made the top 10, not the PS3 version. Freakin' hysterical!!!

EDIT 2: Hell, I'm surprised they didn't include Assassin's Creed as well, then.

This makes Sony's announcement even better. I love shit like this.

[51|RandoM]

Hmmm... can Nintendo also add Wii and DS together?

They did. Consider the pricing of the units in question if you are wondering how Sony can have more revenue with a lower number of hardware units sold.

Revenue is nice, profit is nicer. I suspect Nintendo has better margins on their lower revenue. ;)

[King Drewsky]

Am I missing something? I don't see COD4 (PS3) on the top 10 list:

Top 10 SW Sales
360 CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE ACTIVISION (CORP) NOV 2007 MATURE (M) *1 1.47 million
WII SUPER MARIO GALAXY NINTENDO OF AMERICA NOV 2007 EVERYONE (E) 2 1.40 million
PS2 GUITAR HERO III: LEGENDS OF ROCK ACTIVISION (CORP) OCT 2007 TEEN (T) *3 1.25 million
WII PLAY W/ REMOTE NINTENDO OF AMERICA FEB 2007 EVERYONE (E) 4 1.08 million
360 ASSASSIN'S CREED UBISOFT NOV 2007 MATURE (M) *5 893.7 K
360 HALO 3 MICROSOFT (CORP) SEP 2007 MATURE (M) *6 742.7 K
NDS BRAIN AGE 2: MORE TRAINING IN MINUTES A NINTENDO OF AMERICA AUG 2007 EVERYONE (E) 7 659.5 K
PS2 MADDEN NFL 08 ELECTRONIC ARTS AUG 2007 EVERYONE (E) 8 655.2 K
360 GUITAR HERO III: LEGENDS OF ROCK ACTIVISION (CORP) OCT 2007 TEEN (T) 9 624.6 K
WII MARIO AND SONIC: OLYMPIC GAMES SEGA OF AMERICA NOV 2007 EVERYONE (E) 10 613.0 K

They could be discounting Brain Age 2, since it is a handheld game and not a console game. Although, I doubt that 522k units is good enough for 11th place.

[Telefrog]

They could be discounting Brain Age 2, since it is a handheld game and not a console game. Although, I doubt that 522k units is good enough for 11th place.

Maybe they were referring to the Top Ten PS3 Games list, when they mentioned it? :D

[Johan]

Johan, you saying the same exact thing in thread after thread is getting boring. You don't need to rain on Sony's parade because...it's not that sunny to begin with.

absolut taco, you saying the same thing in thread after thread is getting boring. You don't need to edit my posts because...they're mine and you can ignore them! :D

Bad news for the PS3...the gap keeps growing! :D

[King Drewsky]

With upcoming titles like Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, Devil May Cry 4, Burnout Paradise, and HAZE as well as c

Are any of these titles exclusives? I know MGS has been definitely stated as an exclusive, but they have said that about past MGS games and they were eventually ported to other consoles.

[Kamalot]

Sony: We had our best month of sales for the PS3 ever, and it still wasn't enough to catch up...

[Zanzibar]

They could be discounting Brain Age 2, since it is a handheld game and not a console game. Although, I doubt that 522k units is good enough for 11th place.

Aha - that makes more sense. They did say 'consoles.'

Man, I hope you're right, because otherwise that'd just be too sad.

[Johan]

Sony: We had our best month of sales for the PS3 ever, and it still wasn't enough to catch up...

Now that's funny! :D

It's also true, which should be making Sony "loyalists" and "acolytes" very sad little cub scouts right now...

[51|RandoM]

Sony: We had our best month of sales for the PS3 ever, and it still wasn't enough to catch up...

Because yeah, they're going to catch up in one month.

If I sold 800k units of a console that fanboys on the Internet spent most of their time saying had no games, I'd be fairly pleased.

;)

[Kamalot]

Because yeah, they're going to catch up in one month.

If I sold 800k units of a console that fanboys on the Internet spent most of their time saying had no games, I'd be fairly pleased.

;)

Yup. They won't catch in one month. In fact, at this rate they won't catch up even if given another 3000 months.

[bapenguin]

Sony: We had our best month of sales for the PS3 ever, and it still wasn't enough to catch up...

You have to outsell the competition for one month first before you can begin to "catch up"

[oldjadedgamer]

Because yeah, they're going to catch up in one month.

If I sold 800k units of a console that fanboys on the Internet spent most of their time saying had no games, I'd be fairly pleased.

;)

But other blind fanboys say there are tons of great games. None btw, made the top 10 selling list for the month. So which fanboys are we going with here?

But congratulations to Infinity Ward!!! They will soon claim the title of the first million selling game for PS3 in the states after only being available for a few short months! Even Resistance couldn't do that after a full year on retail shelves. Also to note is that they were the first developer to make a million seller for the 360 in the states as well. So good work IW!

[51|RandoM]

Yup. They won't catch in one month. In fact, at this rate they won't catch up even if given another 3000 months.

Fortunately for Sony the rates are changing. ;)

[51|RandoM]

But other blind fanboys say there are tons of great games. None btw, made the top 10 selling list for the month. So which fanboys are we going with here?

Kind of hard to make the top 10 list when you don't have near as much hardware out there as the competition.

Funny how that works. Make the most of it---which is something Microsoft should have done, but has failed to do.

[Kamalot]

Kind of hard to make the top 10 list when you don't have near as much hardware out there as the competition.

So... The PS3 is selling well, but not good enough to have more hardware out there than the competition. It sounds like it will ALWAYS be difficult for the PS3 software to crack into the top 10 at this rate.

[Telefrog]

Funny how that works. Make the most of it---which is something Microsoft should have done, but has failed to do.

What?! They haven't? Software sales would dispute your claim.

[oldjadedgamer]

Kind of hard to make the top 10 list when you don't have near as much hardware out there as the competition.

Funny how that works. Make the most of it---which is something Microsoft should have done, but has failed to do.

First, your argument is instantly invalidated because last month there were 2 PS3 games in the top 10 list. Second, last year when the 360 had a much smaller userbase still had to compete with a valid PS2 and the launch of two new systems, it still had the number one selling game. And it was already a million seller on top of that.

[rjcc]

Because yeah, they're going to catch up in one month.

If I sold 800k units of a console that fanboys on the Internet spent most of their time saying had no games, I'd be fairly pleased.

;)

lol, the problem is they haven't caught up in ANY month. I think you have a point though, they're not entirely DOA, they're just limping along.

[blademonkey]

Kind of hard to make the top 10 list when you don't have near as much hardware out there as the competition.

Funny how that works. Make the most of it---which is something Microsoft should have done, but has failed to do.

Huh? I think the hardware is out there. I mean i see it everywhere. I see PS3s Stacked to the ceilings at both blockbusters (they're the ONLY console that Blockbuster sells BTW). I see PS3s stacked at Best Buy, Circuit City.
Ya, I think i will go ahead and say the hardware is out there (in stores) just not in consumer domiciles.

Now can someone help me buy a second Wii? ;)

[jadkins555]

Aha - that makes more sense. They did say 'consoles.'

Man, I hope you're right, because otherwise that'd just be too sad.

#11 was Guitar Hero III for the Wii according to IGN (http://wii.ign.com/articles/846/846294p1.html).

[Telefrog]

#11 was Guitar Hero III for the Wii according to IGN (http://wii.ign.com/articles/846/846294p1.html).

Aha! Then that bolsters my theory. They were talking about the 'Top Ten PS3 Games Sold' list when they mentioned COD4. I'm sure it has to be in their top ten. :D

Does anyone know what the top ten PS3 games were for 2007?

[Kamalot]

#11 was Guitar Hero III for the Wii according to IGN (http://wii.ign.com/articles/846/846294p1.html).

That can't be... cause 3rd party games don't sell on Wii... or so we keep hearing.

Go back and count again, cause I can't accept the idea that 3rd party games sell with any level of success on a Nintendo platform. It is unheard of.

[bapenguin]

First, your argument is instantly invalidated because last month there were 2 PS3 games in the top 10 list. Second, last year when the 360 had a much smaller userbase still had to compete with a valid PS2 and the launch of two new systems, it still had the number one selling game. And it was already a million seller on top of that.

Don't even bother. Random doesn't argue with reason, only with "I'm always right"

[Telefrog]

That can't be... cause 3rd party games don't sell on Wii... or so we keep hearing.

Go back and count again, cause I can't accept the idea that 3rd party games sell with any level of success on a Nintendo platform. It is unheard of.

It's weird what happens when you combine a good game with decent advertising and use the remote in a cool way.

[blademonkey]

Don't even bother. Random doesn't argue with reason, only with "I'm always right"

so why are we responding to him?:confused:

[divinechaos]

I'm glad they didn't say that GH3 for PS3 was in the top ten list.

Oh Sony, what will you say next?

[TrackZero]

Priceless.

* PlayStation total hardware revenue was $714 million in December; surpassing the total hardware revenue of Microsoft and Nintendo.

So, you're admitting you're heavily overcharging on the price of your console and raping the consumer? Awesome, thanks for making me want to buy one.

[KNOTE]

Every cloud has a silver lining...

Every cowboy sings a sad, sad song?

[JimmyDanger]

That can't be... cause 3rd party games don't sell on Wii... or so we keep hearing.

Go back and count again, cause I can't accept the idea that 3rd party games sell with any level of success on a Nintendo platform. It is unheard of.

Hold up there cowboy.

Guitar Hero would sell on Atari 2600 if they were to release it for it - such is it's appeal.

The Wii version of GH3 is well behind in sales of the PS2 and 360 versions.

[Telefrog]

Priceless.
So, you're admitting you're heavily overcharging on the price of your console and raping the consumer? Awesome, thanks for making me want to buy one.

Well, to be fair, that revenue number includes the PSP and the PS2.

[Gorvi]

Priceless.
So, you're admitting you're heavily overcharging on the price of your console and raping the consumer? Awesome, thanks for making me want to buy one.
So they're overcharging for the PS3? So since it includes WiFi, a BluRay drive, and a larger HDD, while only being $50 more than the 360 Premium, is MS overcharging for the 360 as well?

[DaXIthR]

Hold up there cowboy.

Guitar Hero would sell on Atari 2600 if they were to release it for it - such is it's appeal.

But Virtua Fighter 5 can't sell on the PS3? Viva Pinata can't sell on the 360?

[JimmyDanger]

But Virtua Fighter 5 can't sell on the PS3? Viva Pinata can't sell on the 360?

Yeah.

Play the violins.

[EternalGamer]

Sony: We had our best month of sales for the PS3 ever, and it still wasn't enough to catch up...

But why do they need to "catch up" at all? Some of my favorite game systems in the past, while decently successful, were not the market leaders. I had a great time with my TG16 and it had a healthy lifespan filled with great titles. It was strongly in 3rd place behind both the Genesis and the SNES, but damned if that meant anything to me. It sure didn't make Legendary Axe or Blazing Lasers any less enjoyable nor did it mean that I didn't have a great stable of games to chose from. Ditto with the Saturn behind both the PS1 and N64.

Being behind is only a problem if you cannot sustain a healthy ecosystem for your console. And, if anything, third place is even less of a problem then before because the industry is bigger than ever before. There are more developers and more consumers. Plenty to go around.

[EternalGamer]

But Virtua Fighter 5 can't sell on the PS3? Viva Pinata can't sell on the 360?

Can Virtua Fighter sell on ANY system in the U.S.? I haven't seen the 360 numbers but I know of only one person on my friend's list or any of my friend's friend's list that has actually played it.

[Vandenh]

But why do they need to "catch up" at all? Some of my favorite game systems in the past, while decently successful, were not the market leaders. I had a great time with my TG16 and it had a healthy lifespan filled with great titles. It was strongly in 3rd place behind both the Genesis and the SNES, but damned if that meant anything to me. It sure didn't make Legendary Axe or Blazing Lasers any less enjoyable nor did it mean that I didn't have a great stable of games to chose from. Ditto with the Saturn behind both the PS1 and N64.

Very true... but somehow I think big mighty cocky Sony would not agree. :) Remember these are the guys that said people would buy the PS3 even if it had no games.

[EternalGamer]

So they're overcharging for the PS3? So since it includes WiFi, a BluRay drive, and a larger HDD, while only being $50 more than the 360 Premium, is MS overcharging for the 360 as well?

Don't forget the controller charge cable and free online play. Seriously, at its current price point, anyone that actually argues that the PS3's hardware is overprice is just being ridiculous unless they consider every other current console overpriced as well.

[Gorvi]

Don't forget the controller charge cable and free online play. Seriously, at its current price point, anyone that actually argues that the PS3's hardware is overprice is just being ridiculous unless they consider every other current console overpriced as well.
Wasn't that an MS exec who said that?

[Kamalot]

Well, it really does not matter how well the PS3 sold this past holiday season, since Sony is more concerned about Holiday 2008 (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33282&highlight=Holiday+2008).

[oldjadedgamer]

So they're overcharging for the PS3? So since it includes WiFi, a BluRay drive, and a larger HDD, while only being $50 more than the 360 Premium, is MS overcharging for the 360 as well?

Yes, it is. Sony being the price it was is the reason the 360 has remained the price it has and hasn't dropped. They don't feel any pressure right now to drop it which sucks for new consumers.

Even Peter Moore said (after the PS3 price was first announced):

"We had a price drop on Monday when Sony announced their price."

[Kamalot]

But why do they need to "catch up" at all? Some of my favorite game systems in the past, while decently successful, were not the market leaders. I had a great time with my TG16 and it had a healthy lifespan filled with great titles. It was strongly in 3rd place behind both the Genesis and the SNES, but damned if that meant anything to me. It sure didn't make Legendary Axe or Blazing Lasers any less enjoyable nor did it mean that I didn't have a great stable of games to chose from. Ditto with the Saturn behind both the PS1 and N64.

Being behind is only a problem if you cannot sustain a healthy ecosystem for your console. And, if anything, third place is even less of a problem then before because the industry is bigger than ever before. There are more developers and more consumers. Plenty to go around.

I wholeheartedly agree. I very much enjoy my Saturn and my Dreamcast, and they didn't 'win' their respective generations.

[Gorvi]

Yes, it is. Sony being the price it was is the reason the 360 has remained the price it has and hasn't dropped. They don't feel any pressure right now to drop it which sucks for new consumers.

Even Peter Moore said (after the PS3 price was first announced):

"We had a price drop on Monday when Sony announced their price."
The PS3 was overpriced for the market, not for the console you get out of the box. You could argue it's still overpriced for the mainstream market. The $600 price tag mistake is something they're still trying to recover from, and likely will for the remainder of the generation.

[oldjadedgamer]

The PS3 was overpriced for the market, not for the console you get out of the box. You could argue it's still overpriced for the mainstream market. The $600 price tag mistake is something they're still trying to recover from, and likely will for the remainder of the generation.

"Value" is subjective and based on a person by person basis. But one thing that isn't subjective is playing games. If I have no need for Blu-Ray, wireless, or the hard drive space and I simply just want to play updates to all my favorite PS2 franchises then it's over priced.

As a game machine, both the PS3 and 360 are overpriced in my opinion. There is no excuse for the 360 to be out for 2 full years with only a $50 price drop except that they can since they feel no pressure from Sony to drop it more and looking at PS3 sales of hardware and software this Christmas, it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon and again, that sucks for consumers wanting a 360 and it sucks for Sony cause they have to keep dropping the price (and their profits) just to compete.

[Gorvi]

"Value" is subjective and based on a person by person basis. But one thing that isn't subjective is playing games. If I have no need for Blu-Ray, wireless, or the hard drive space and I simply just want to play updates to all my favorite PS2 franchises then it's over priced.

As a game machine, both the PS3 and 360 are overpriced in my opinion. There is no excuse for the 360 to be out for 2 full years with only a $50 price drop except that they can since they feel no pressure from Sony to drop it more and looking at PS3 sales of hardware and software this Christmas, it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon and again, that sucks for consumers wanting a 360 and it sucks for Sony cause they have to keep dropping the price (and their profits) just to compete.
I can completely agree with that.

[agentgray]

I didn't consider Microsoft's either. THere's no point in posting each company's respective PR spin.

But then I get to use the image twice. ;)

[Baron Samedi]

http://www.geekpulp.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowslivewriterhappybirthdayxbox360andps3-f065ps3cake54.jpg

I just had to.......

[DaXIthR]

Can Virtua Fighter sell on ANY system in the U.S.? I haven't seen the 360 numbers but I know of only one person on my friend's list or any of my friend's friend's list that has actually played it.

Holy crap. You're right (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=virtua+fighter+5&console=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Last+Updated).

I don't know why I remember thinking 360 VF5 sales blew the PS3 figures out of the water. My bad.

The PS3 was overpriced for the market, not for the console you get out of the box.

Come on, man. That's splitting hairs.

Sony miscast consumer enthusiasm and demand for the product by 20,000 leagues. If you're overpriced for the market, you're overpriced. Period.

[Baron Samedi]

Holy crap. You're right (http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=virtua+fighter+5&console=&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Last+Updated).

I don't know why I remember thinking 360 VF5 sales blew the PS3 figures out of the water. My bad.

Those are some disappointing numbers. My how the mighty have fallen.

[DaXIthR]

"Value" is subjective and based on a person by person basis. But one thing that isn't subjective is playing games.

As a game machine, both the PS3 and 360 are overpriced in my opinion. There is no excuse for the 360 to be out for 2 full years with only a $50 price drop except that they can since they feel no pressure from Sony to drop it more and looking at PS3 sales of hardware and software this Christmas, it doesn't look like that will change anytime soon and again, that sucks for consumers wanting a 360 and it sucks for Sony cause they have to keep dropping the price (and their profits) just to compete.

Agreed. A reasonable (but not best) way of determining to a number of people is looking at the eBay prices for the various consoles.

All things considered, you could say Wii is underpriced and as valuable, if not more so, than its competitors. Much like the DS in Japan in 2006 when retailers were buying used systems for prices higher than Nintendo's MSRP because of shortages and high demand.

Nintendo was selling over 100K a week, but so many more people wanted the damn thing. Let's say its MSRP was $100. You could sell your USED DS to a retailer for $110. Those same used systems were being sold - as pre-owned - for $130. Crazy stuff. The DS was drastically underpriced in that situation.

[TrackZero]

All things considered, you could say Wii is underpriced and as valuable, if not more so, than its competitors.

I'd say the opposite. Why is the price tag between the Wii ($249) and the 360 ($299) only $50? Either the Wii is overpriced, or the 360 is underpriced, because their hardware specs aren't even comparable.

[Kamalot]

For perspective, here's what was said about the PS3 back in July, and how the Holiday 2007 season was a make-or-break time for the PS3 (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6409&Itemid=2).

“Sony needs to light a fire under the [PS3] and get it selling by the end of the year,” said Jay Defibaugh, analyst at Credit Suisse, speaking to the Financial Times.

“It is difficult to shift perceptions after the second Christmas [a console is launched],” he added.

Carlos Dimas, an analyst at HSBC, echoed Defibaugh’s comments. “Sales of consoles are driven in large part by fad and young people’s opinions. If they don’t want to buy [the PS3] now or in a few months, they will lose interest,” he said

While Sony has this week looked to take action in the face of ailing sales by reducing the price of its PlayStation 3 console by $100 to $499, many have suggested the move will make little direct impact on units sold. For Sony to simultaneously announce the launch of a new PS3 with a larger hard drive for $599 is also a questionable strategy considering the apparent fact that the price point has already been widely deemed as too high.

[Kamalot]

I'd say the opposite. Why is the price tag between the Wii ($249) and the 360 ($299) only $50? Either the Wii is overpriced, or the 360 is underpriced, because their hardware specs aren't even comparable.

The value of a console does not relate directly to the specifications of the hardware. Software, and how much fun the software is, plays a HUGE factor in the value of a console.

[DaXIthR]

I'd say the opposite. Why is the price tag between the Wii ($249) and the 360 ($299) only $50? Either the Wii is overpriced, or the 360 is underpriced, because their hardware specs aren't even comparable.

Must have missed my post or the preceding duscussion. No problem.

Price is NOT calculated by adding up the manufacturing costs and marking it up 10%. Price is calculated based on demand - what people are willing to pay.

eBay shows Wii buyers are willing to spend way more than $250 for the system. They are willing to pay PS3 prices for one. By contrast, people seem reluctant to play PS3 prices for a PS3. Simple as that.

EDIT: Added a 'NOT'. Thanks, Kamalot. Confound my carelessness!

[Telefrog]

Must have missed my post or the preceding duscussion. No problem.

Price is calculated by adding up the manufacturing costs and marking it up 10%. Price is calculated based on demand - what people are willing to pay.

eBay shows Wii buyers are willing to spend way more than $250 for the system. They are willing to pay PS3 prices for one. By contrast, people seem reluctant to play PS3 prices for a PS3. Simple as that.

Hold on. Price isn't determined by adding up manufacturing and adding 10%. That's a way too simplistic view of how the price of any item is determined. It's unrealistic. I can't think of any product that would be priced like that outside of some basic textbook.

Neither is price set simply by demand on most products.

[blademonkey]

The value of a console does not relate directly to the specifications of the hardware. Software, and how much fun the software is, plays a HUGE factor in the value of a console.

sounds like projected market value. Fun, cannot be entirely measure, and sometimes, even predicted, so i think it's fair to say that combination of both hardware/software mixed with projections of production costs make for the blunt of the MSRP.

but that's just me. :rolleyes:

[Kamalot]

Price is calculated by adding up the manufacturing costs and marking it up 10%. Price is calculated based on demand - what people are willing to pay.

Not to nitpick, but if price was the cost of goods sold + 10%, wouldn't the PS3 have even been MORE expensive? It was my understanding that the PS3 was sold at a loss...

[blademonkey]

Hold on. Price isn't determined by adding up manufacturing and adding 10%. That's a way too simplistic view of how the price of any item is determined. It's unrealistic. I can't think of any product that would be priced like that outside of some basic textbook.

Neither is price set simply by demand on most products.

Why not? how about we determine the price based on the original price/spec and deduct for every component that has been taken out. I know people who can run Econometric Regression Models to determine this. I would just need some hardware spec detailed.

[51|RandoM]

eBay shows Wii buyers are willing to spend way more than $250 for the system. They are willing to pay PS3 prices for one. By contrast, people seem reluctant to play PS3 prices for a PS3. Simple as that.

You left out the word "some" in a few places, let me help you.

eBay shows some Wii buyers are willing to spend way more than $250 for the system. They are willing to pay PS3 prices for one. By contrast, some people seem reluctant to pay PS3 prices for a PS3. Simple as that.

[Gorvi]

Not to nitpick, but if price was the cost of goods sold + 10%, wouldn't the PS3 have even been MORE expensive? It was my understanding that the PS3 was sold at a loss...
Wouldn't that have applied to the 360 as well? Heck, the Wii would more than likely be 2/3 the price if that was applied to it.

[Kamalot]

You left out the word "some" in a few places, let me help you.

eBay shows some Wii buyers are willing to spend way more than $250 for the system. They are willing to pay PS3 prices for one. By contrast, some people seem reluctant to pay PS3 prices for a PS3. Simple as that.

Well, this gets a big DUH.

Some people aren't willing to spend ANY amount of money on a Wii, or any video game system.

Haven't you learned that when we talk about 'people' we aren't talking about 'every single person'?

[Kamalot]

Wouldn't that have applied to the 360 as well? Heck, the Wii would more than likely be 2/3 the price if that was applied to it.

Absolutely! Price is an arbitrary number set by the company based on a large number of factors, including the cost of goods sold, other costs of manufacturing/assembly/marketing, how much the company estimates the market will bear, and the cost of competing products... among other factors.

[asimonk]

Why not? how about we determine the price based on the original price/spec and deduct for every component that has been taken out. I know people who can run Econometric Regression Models to determine this. I would just need some hardware spec detailed.

If I recall correctly Sony (and Microsoft as well) has stated that they have sold every console at a loss with the intentions of making up the losses by increasing their install base and therefore increasing software sales as they make a nice slice of every title sold.

[Deadend]

Well, this gets a big DUH.

Some people aren't willing to spend ANY amount of money on a Wii, or any video game system.

Haven't you learned that when we talk about 'people' we aren't talking about 'every single person'?

Everyone knows that when anyone talks about everyone they are not really talking about every one.

[blademonkey]

If I recall correctly Sony (and Microsoft as well) has stated that they have sold every console at a loss with the intentions of making up the losses by increasing their install base and therefore increasing software sales as they make a nice slice of every title sold.

You are probably more correct than me. I am just very heavily influenced by economic entities that make me spew out methods that SHOULD (apparently) be applied but are not always.

I was also going on a segue, in reference to the original "intelligent design" of the PS3 and how that has changed since it's genesis. That's somewhat important (yet irrelevant to this topic, i realize) because it was the original specifications that STARTED the hype train. I do digress, but that's because (like the PS3) i have many cells that allow me to multithread, but some (or most) of them may be dead. :D

and now back to the catfight . . .

[oldjadedgamer]

Don't even bother. Random doesn't argue with reason, only with "I'm always right"

Random has two stances when he posts. He's either always right, or never wrong.

[Jack B]

Every quarterly earnings call or results press release I've ever seen does this kind of spin. It's as good as most. Nothing new here.

The good news is that Sony will have lower compares next year for year over year growth. I also believe they'll make some progress in catching the 360 in North America. I believe the 360 will still outsell the PS3 in NA, but not in the Europe or Japan.

It's so hard to say though, because there are lot's of unknowns. Price drops, new online features, last minute exclusives, unannounced games, hits, flops, Video/TV/IPTV/Neflix/DVR stuff etc. Too many variables to make a decent prediction, but I still believe 2008 will be a better year for the PS3.

I think the 360 will keep chugging along and the Wii will do well, but they'll have a tough time matching 2007 for excitement. Who knows what will happen if the Wii gets their supply problem figured out. I think they missed a pretty big opportunity in 2007 by not having stock on shelves though. 2008 should be interesting.

[Johan]

So...when does reality filter out to the Sony loyalists and blinded devotees that Sony's vaunted PS3 is in third this generation in the U.S. and second in Japan, and there to stay...not making up ground but instead falling further behind?

I mean...what's it gonna take?

[Jack B]

It looks like the claim goes something along the lines of this...

'Games that are available on Playstation Platforms made their way into the top ten games sold, even though it may not have been the Playstation version of the game that made it into the top 10...'

I didn't even bother to try and nitpick any details, but that one is a classic. That is a Spin Doctor Hall of Fame comment candidate. To actually use a competitors performance of a game to to try and make your numbers look good.

That's like a retailer claiming one of their products they sold was in the top 10 of all products sold worldwide, because Walmart sold a shitload of it. Huh? Good one. :D

[Jack B]

Everyone knows that when anyone talks about everyone they are not really talking about every one.

Everyone, no one, always, never type comments are a big pet peeve of mine. It's like finger nails on a chalkboard for me. :)

[king3567]

PS3 lost 2007 due to Sony's arrogance in 06 and the fact that Sony (and subsequently all PS3 third parties) decided to put all its eggs in one basket by delaying everything it could into 2008 realizing that they have nothing to compete with Halo 3. I do not have a PS3, but I believe and know its a good piece of hardware. If 2008 turns out to be as good as they say it will and it has SIGNIFICANT leap over the 360 then I will complete the trilogy of consoles. But for right now, 360 and PS3 are just too similar for their own good with the edge going to 360 due to higher software sales and a HUGE difference in install base.

So Sony lost due to 2006's fumbles and Microsoft doing a great job of keeping good games coming out all year long. 2008 will be a reall battle though.

[KidCactus]

PS3 lost 2007 due to Sony's arrogance in 06 and the fact that Sony (and subsequently all PS3 third parties) decided to put all its eggs in one basket by delaying everything it could into 2008 realizing that they have nothing to compete with Halo 3.
Do you actually really believe the delays are due to Halo 3? :confused:

[MORGiON]

So...when does reality filter out to the Sony loyalists and blinded devotees that Sony's vaunted PS3 is in third this generation in the U.S. and second in Japan, and there to stay...not making up ground but instead falling further behind?

I mean...what's it gonna take?


That has been a given for a while now, it's 2nd place worldwide thats up for grabs.

Well, it really does not matter how well the PS3 sold this past holiday season, since Sony is more concerned about Holiday 2008 (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33282&highlight=Holiday+2008).

I was wondering if anyone would remember this. I think the best bet for the US in 08 is to stop the X360 from gaining anymore ground and maybee towards the end of the year close the gap a little.

[Bralgar]

You guys crack me up. This is the only site I visit that has the doom and gloom/ downward spiral/ crash and burn talk about the PS3.:rolleyes:

Intersecting arcs. Someone needs to plot this shit. Catching up does not mean out selling. Accelerated sales vs leveling sales will show up on a chart as catching up.

[Johan]

Catching up does not mean out selling. Accelerated sales vs leveling sales will show up on a chart as catching up.

Hahahaha!

Accelerated sales of the PS3 that are NOT above competing sales of the 360 on a month-to-month basis will, if the 360 levels off in sales but doesn't drop below those of the PS3, certainly show the PS3 slowly moving closer...

but, genius, NEVER catching up. Catching up is to overtake and intercept! On the chart you describe, the PS3 would be forever staring at the 360's ass. :D

In other words, if you want to "intercept" your competitor, you actually have to OUTSELL them! In NA, that hasn't happened on a monthly basis yet.

Your spin is showing.

[Bralgar]

Hahahaha!


Your spin is showing.
It's all spin.
Nobody takes into account all of the variables that go into sales trends, when they denounce one system over another. Current trends will start to show arcs on a chart. The Blu-ray swing will no doubt increase PS3 hardware sales in the very near future (note I did not say software). Thus creating a tighter up-sweeping arc than the 360's side-sweeping. Keep an eye on this. ;)

[Karmakin]

That can't be... cause 3rd party games don't sell on Wii... or so we keep hearing.

Go back and count again, cause I can't accept the idea that 3rd party games sell with any level of success on a Nintendo platform. It is unheard of.

All snark aside, GH3 for the Wii probably would have been in the top 10 (and I'll argue high up in the top 10) if they made more. It was selling on Ebay for about 200 bucks. There was a huge shortage of this title. Needless to say I doubt that Activision was unhappy with how it performed.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

You guys crack me up. This is the only site I visit that has the doom and gloom/ downward spiral/ crash and burn talk about the PS3.:rolleyes:

Intersecting arcs. Someone needs to plot this shit. Catching up does not mean out selling. Accelerated sales vs leveling sales will show up on a chart as catching up.Well that certainly does make it clear what quality of sites you go to! :p

You know, if you are using ellipses to plot and chart your data that is pretty clear from a simple line graph, you might be over analyzing. Or, possibly putting in far, far too many of your own expectations into the data.

And, you seem to think that the people who are happy with the astonishingly dismal PS3 sales are the heroes. Sony did absolutely nothing special in December, except they discovered Christmas. Sales weren't exploding; they went up less than the competition. They didn't catch up, they dropped behind further. They are now trailing all competitors by 500,000 units a month in sales. If this keeps up, they will behind every other competitor by another 6 million units per year.

Any ellipse will tell you that. Or line chart. Unless, of course, you aren't listening.

Any ellipse will tell you that. Or line chart.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

It's all spin.
Nobody takes into account all of the variables that go into sales trends, when they denounce one system over another. Current trends will start to show arcs on a chart. The Blu-ray swing will no doubt increase PS3 hardware sales in the very near future (note I did not say software). Thus creating a tighter up-sweeping arc than the 360's side-sweeping. Keep an eye on this. ;)Well, the movie market isn't a new thing for PS3. Its the same thing they sold for the last 2 christmas seasons. So far, it's not helping.

What's even worse is Sony is actually selling in to two separate markets; gaming and movies. Some people only game with PS3, some watch only movies, some do a bit of both. Either way, they have a larger audience because of the two markets, and they still placed a far distant third in sales.

I really thought Sony would sell more than a million units in December. And I thought I was being pretty low on my estimates.

[king3567]

I do think that some games were delayed due to Halo 3 and to a lesser extent CoD 4. These are the juggernauts that sold extremely well during the holidays. Guitar Hero and Rock Band are huge sellers too, but right now they have sort of a monopoly on the music game genre.

When a company openly admits that lost ahead of time (such as Sony did), then that is pretty bad.

2008 will be the deciding factor on if the PS3 is going to be worth it at all. The 360 is tough beast to stop considering so many people bought it for Halo 3, it is easier for them to buy the multiplatform games on the 360.

[Jack B]

You guys crack me up. This is the only site I visit that has the doom and gloom/ downward spiral/ crash and burn talk about the PS3.:rolleyes:

Intersecting arcs. Someone needs to plot this shit. Catching up does not mean out selling. Accelerated sales vs leveling sales will show up on a chart as catching up.

Unless you're visiting PS3 sites, then I'd disagree. IGN, 1up.com, and Gamespot all have forums filled with the same type of posts. I frequent those. PS3 fans have experienced domination for two generations, so anything negative seems sureal.

In the US the PS3 has 1/3 the install base of the 360. This is not isolated to EvAv.

[Jack B]

It's all spin.
Nobody takes into account all of the variables that go into sales trends, when they denounce one system over another. Current trends will start to show arcs on a chart. The Blu-ray swing will no doubt increase PS3 hardware sales in the very near future (note I did not say software). Thus creating a tighter up-sweeping arc than the 360's side-sweeping. Keep an eye on this. ;)

Others on EvAv do have the ability to look at many if not all the variables. You have only 28 posts on EvAv. I'm not convinced you're the voice of reason just yet. We have plenty of intelligent posters on EvAv.

As for your post on Blu-Ray. Many have said the same thing including me. It's not rocket science. Using the ;) icon for your Blu-Ray comment is odd. Did you think you were the only one smart enough to figure that out? Maybe you've been frequenting some web sites with less educated posters.

[TeeCakes]

Every cloud has a silver lining...
Every cowboy sings a sad, sad song?

Just like every rose (PS3) has a thorn (Lair).

[Evil Avatar]

Hmmm... can Nintendo also add Wii and DS together?

And if we are going to start adding things together. Lets toss Microsoft's PC game software, Operating Software, PC Perepherial hardware (mouse/keyboard) and Business Application software into the mix.

Who is laughing now?

[Bralgar]

Others on EvAv do have the ability to look at many if not all the variables. You have only 28 posts on EvAv. I'm not convinced you're the voice of reason just yet. We have plenty of intelligent posters on EvAv.
I lurk more than anything, but when I see post after post of anti PS3 I just have to slip in a little reminder from time to time that it isn't the end of Sony or the PS3.
Yes, there are a lot of intelligent posters here, that is why I come back from time to time.

As for your post on Blu-Ray. Many have said the same thing including me. It's not rocket science. Using the ;) icon for your Blu-Ray comment is odd. Did you think you were the only one smart enough to figure that out? Maybe you've been frequenting some web sites with less educated posters.
Not meant to confuse anyone, it was a reminder wink. I guess you could call me commander vague since it didn't come across immediately. I just think that if someone is going to take the time to post something in a negative context, they could follow it up with a positive so they don't come off as a nay saying fanboi.

I will own a 360 some time this year, just not ready to buy one yet. Last gen I had all 3 systems, and the gen before that also.

I'm not Anti anyone, but I do think some of the Nintendo popularity is strange/misplaced. But that is for another thread.