Game industry needs gender as well as racial diversity

[fitbabits]

Spotted this article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/08/05/minority.gaming.ap/index.html) while browsing CNN (http://www.cnn.com).

From the article:

In the popular video game "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas," players assume the lead character of Carl Johnson, a down-on-his-luck criminal who roams city streets, stealing cars and helping gang members knock off rivals in drive-by shootings.

"CJ," as he's known by his pals, is black -- and to some in the video game industry, that's a problem.

A growing number of people in the booming industry believe there should be more black and Hispanic heroes and heroines instead of hoods and hoodlums.

"Not everybody goes outside with bling-bling and listens to rap music all day," says Amil Tomlin, a black 15-year-old from Baltimore who plays hours of video games each day.

"I'd love to hear what other stories exist in the world besides the stereotypical ones. There are good people in the ghetto. There are role models," said academy co-founder John Saulter, who runs Entertainment Arts Research, one of the industry's few black-owned video gaming companies.
Interesting.

Editor: The title says it all.

[Adam Blue]

This is how the world works and things will change with time. Until then we will hear this pointless bullshit. And even then a new issue will arise.

People are that bored.

[FunkyPoopMonkey]

So they didn't like it when they had no black characters, now they don't like it when we get a black character. Besides, where in the game does CJ say "I am black and all black people act like I do!"? Quit yer bitching people.

What about the other groups? Mexican, Indian, and Gays get no representation in games really. And women get 99% negative representation in games, with d cup tits and countless panty shots. Of course women have complained about this in the past.

[MagicAlex]

You have got to be fucking kidding me. The game industry is hardly lacking in diversity. Games have had characters with every possible shade of skin color and more! We've got animals, mutants, women, children, little yellow circles with mouths, robots, I mean the list goes on. And why the heck is Grand Theft Auto being brought up again? There are, what, six of these games now? San Andreas is the only one I know of where the player is black, and the premise of the whole series is that you're a criminal! Once again, people look at video games and completely miss the point.

[FunkyPoopMonkey]

San Andreas is the only one I know of where the player is black, and the premise of the whole series is that you're a criminal!

Good point. I guess they wanted CJ to dance around flowers, and pet kittens.

Roughly 80 percent of video game programmers are white, according to preliminary results of an International Game Developers Association survey. About four percent of designers are Hispanic, and less than three percent are black.
Um...where are the asians? Those people that have granted us these consoles. They don't do any of the "programming"?

[Liquidize105]

So they didn't like it when they had no black characters, now they don't like it when we get a black character. Besides, where in the game does CJ say "I am black and all black people act like I do!"? Quit yer bitching people.

What about the other groups? Mexican, Indian, and Gays get no representation in games really. And women get 99% negative representation in games, with d cup tits and countless panty shots. Of course women have complained about this in the past.You have got to be fucking kidding me. The game industry is hardly lacking in diversity. Games have had characters with every possible shade of skin color and more! We've got animals, mutants, women, children, little yellow circles with mouths, robots, I mean the list goes on. And why the heck is Grand Theft Auto being brought up again? There are, what, six of these games now? San Andreas is the only one I know of where the player is black, and the premise of the whole series is that you're a criminal! Once again, people look at video games and completely miss the point.

It's not about representation, they're talking about misrepresentation.

Popular culture proliferates cultural stereotypes. The fact that San Andreas is used as an example is because there aren't any convenient counter examples. Name a game with a black hero. Takes a bit of thinking, doesn't it?

Gender-wise it's undeniable the industry needs to diversify, it's the same for color.

[chronocrash]

The only reason the "industry" needs "diversity" is because a diverse crowd is who is being marketed towards, and the companies that claim these things are so worried about losing customers that everything little concern is addressed. And by who? I dunno, but my guess is some white guy in PR having to come up with "answers" as to why everyone in the country isn't playing their game(s). That's a bit of a stretch though.
When things like diversity come fall the context of race, and not taste, then bad games happen. Same with movies and books. Major problem with entertainment outlets: People who are making all the money want to make everyone happy. When money is the driving force, there are no perfectly honest issues. And IMO, I could give a fuck about how many black, white, asian, indian, purple people/things are in the game or movie, I just want quality. And when people are obsessing over the quantity, then quality takes a backseat.
Another thing.. subjective viewpoints: If you think people in movies or games are representative of anything or anyone but themselves, take a step back. View every character as an individual, in movies, games, and in life. Issues get way easier to comprehend at that point.

/pointless rant

[evilpenguin9000]

This just in, racism is a problem in America. Wow, that's some reporting CNN. They pick the one game with a black character that is "stereotypical." I suppose you should ignore all those rappers from the 90s that made a career out of writing songs about lives just like that character. Heaven forbid art imitate a harsh reality we'd rather not think about.

I dunno, I'm just annoyed that whenever it's a slow newsday they trot out racism in the U.S. or some negative video game story.

[jeffool]

So they didn't like it when they had no black characters, now they don't like it when we get a black character. Besides, where in the game does CJ say "I am black and all black people act like I do!"? Quit yer bitching people.See, somewhere in there is the problem. People say "Hey, what about this?" And the reply of gamers is "Quit yer bitching people." The attitude of 'here's a black guy, so shut up and be happy with the most famous black character being a criminal.'San Andreas is the only one I know of where the player is black, and the premise of the whole series is that you're a criminal! Once again, people look at video games and completely miss the point.Now that's a valid point. No company should be held to the responsiblity of perpetuating stereotypes about an entire race. It's completely unfair to Rockstar. It's, again, the most famous black character being a criminal. I can't wait until someone at CNN or Fox News realizes the amount of racist and anti-gay slurs on online games. Can't wait to hear people defend those folks.

/edit:
Oh, Jason Della Rocca recently wrote this post (http://www.igda.org/blogs/realitypanic/archives/000311.html) in his blog, where he mentions a NYTimes story about gameLab. The NYTimes article, here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/27/technology/27casual.html?8hpib), can be accessed with a login: pidmeoff password: pidmeoff1234

[*Legion*]

"Not everybody goes outside with bling-bling and listens to rap music all day"

That's funny. Not every white guy builds a drug empire in Miami while listening to Amy Holland and Iron Maiden, but that's what the GTA game before the one in question was about. Interesting how similar behavior became insensitive when the lead character was no longer white!

ALTERNATE RESPONSE:

"Not everybody goes outside with bling-bling and listens to rap music all day"

But it's a masterpiece when it's in movie form and directed by Spike Lee.

[Liquidize105]

That's funny. Not every white guy builds a drug empire in Miami while listening to Amy Holland and Iron Maiden, but that's what the GTA game before the one in question was about. Interesting how similar behavior became insensitive when the lead character was no longer white!

ALTERNATE RESPONSE:



But it's a masterpiece when it's in movie form and directed by Spike Lee.
The whole point, and I repeat, is that there aren't enough counter examples.

For every Tommy mafioso, there's at least 5 fighty whitey John/Jack action heroes; give me one example of a black hero in a game. Even if you can name one, there's no way you can name two.

Do you know what's stereotyping? Stereotyping is about reducing a group of characteristically unique individuals down to an oversimplified set image. Whites aren't conveniently thought of as thugs and gangbangers, whereas Blacks are and nothing else.

[GrinR]

The black guy in FF7, for one. Oh, and the one in Daikatana. Boo ya.

[Liquidize105]

The black guy in FF7, for one. Oh, and the one in Daikatana. Boo ya.
What black guy in FF7? And don't tell me you're seriously using Daikatana as an example.

Oh, you mean the very forgettable supporting cast.

[Deadend]

I think there have not been many non white main characters in video games because most people in games are white/asian. Not that they want to be their race in the game, but they don't want to seem to be exploiting a black/hispanic character. There is also the fact that making a white character means the character can do whatever and say whatever and no one would raise a eyebrow to the character's skin color.

It seems that as long as people think skin color matters, it will.

If GTA:SA had a white main character say "what up my nigga?" people would scream for the heads of Rockstar. CJ says it, and... people complain about the fact he is a thug from da hood.

I cannot think of a game off the top of my head where there is a black guy as a main character who is a hero. Maybe that Getting Up game would count? Except that guy goes around putting graffiti on everything.

Oh! I got one! Mercenaries! Main character on the center of the box is black.. and that is it.

[Noiz]

Urban Chaos.

Yeah it was a shit game but not only was the main character black, SHE was also FEMALE!

It seems that as long as people think skin color matters, it will.

I think that summed it up to the point of killing the thread. Until people started whining about the main character being black nobody cared. Whites, blacks, asians, martians, whoever, they all just played the game and enjoyed the story.

And besides, had these whiners actually played the game through they would've seen that CJ, deep down, is a good guy. All of the exploits he gets up to are to drag his family out of the ghetto where they can lead a worry-free life. Yeah, he chooses crime as a way to acheive this but the underlying motivation is pretty noble.

[FunkyPoopMonkey]

What black guy in FF7?
What are you, joking? The very first character Cloud meets in the game! One who is with you til the end of it! The one who's skin was brown! How can I clearify this anymore for you?

[jeffool]

How about saying "Barrett," or "the guy with the gun on his hand?" Maybe that'd help him out some.

[Nessus]

The only two examples I could think of were Barrett and Michael Edwards from Eternal Darkness.

[MrMeatshake]

This just in, racism is a problem in America. Wow, that's some reporting CNN.

if this conversation was on xbox live, someone would have said "shut the fuck up, nigga" by now.

what annoys me is that they have no shame.

oh, and in that list of black main characters: blade (http://www.blade2game.com/) (II). They'll be complaining that black people are stereotyped as half-vampire, black jacket-clad, silver-sword weilding vampire-slayers.

[Noiz]

Another one: Enter the Matrix. Can't remember what she was called though.

[revelation]

fact that San Andreas is used as an example is because there aren't any convenient counter examples. Name a game with a black hero. Takes a bit of thinking, doesn't it?

Took me all of three seconds.

Michael Jordan! (MJ in the Windy City ... Space Jam)

Hell. There's even Jax in Mortal Kombat (and he even had his own s**tty game, too!).

Balrog from Street Fighter.

But I'm sure it'll then be flipped into, "But they're not games with deep, long stories! In fact, they had no story at all!" Because of course, everyone needs to be miserable and will never be satisfied.

Have a cry.

[splatstick]

Actually, I did a project on this topic for my Sociological Analysis class. I went through all the videogame magazines and tallied the races/gender/ages protrayed (reflects their target audience to an extent) and the numbers were pretty interesting. Age is a huge factor that goes un-noticed (off-hand, I think only 2% of the people portrayed were over 30). Of course for the study I had to discount ogres, dragons, and any and all references to "warm brew made from coffee beans".

[AversionFX]

Diversity in the market is a problem. I'm no racist, but when blacks (or any other minority) gets a ragtag band of programmers together, we get shit like 50 Cent: Bulletproof. Every minority is already perfectly represented in the gaming world. Who cares about the heroes? If you want your minorities, go play a sports game.

If you play a basketball or football game, 2/3rds of your players are black. That's representation enough for me. I hate these "racial issues," in technology, because white people just work on this stuff. You never hear about, "We're white! Our game's hero is white!" But when blacks do it, it's all about the fact that they're black and they made a game. To hell with the game, we're black! WE MADE A FUCKING GAME! Be proud! Of course, the game sucks, because your character is black, and he has to let everyone know, and he has to beat up white boys who act like brainwashed sociopaths. That, and he has to further drive home every single stereotype humanly imaginable.

I work in a gift shop, so I always have to see this magazine called "Black Economics" or some shit. And last month's issue had an article about "the masterminds behind videogaming," and it was all people who worked on some of the WORST games in recent years. It was sickening.

/rant

[LilEvilFish]

I feel that I have been threatened by george lucas since he used British people as villains which makes me out to be a power hungry member of the empire, honestly I'm scared to go out at night.

oh please.

oh AND I am deeply disgusted with the portrayal of geeks in the movie business, we are seen as lifeless, whitened ghosts of people who rarely see the light of day, and dammit that's only partly true cos black people can be geeks too!

[Ernst_Jager]

down with whitey!

[Nerv]

I think things are improving.
For a while, the video games industry was the little brother of TV and Hollywood, stealing ideas and themes whenever we could, and there are a lot more white people in blockbusters and on tv than any other peoples.
However that is changing a lot as video games mature and gradually begin to stand up on it's own, and things are changing for the better in every way, it just takes time.

[swiftdraw]

Isn't Malcom from UT black? Or, excuse me, african-american... I suppose these people want "Johnnie Cochran: The game." Of course, being a cracker I can't understand these things.

Actually I got an idea for a game. Base it in the civil rights movement of the 1950s-'70s and try to raise support for your cause. You can use peaceful civil dis-obidance, advacate revolution (maybe even trigger it), or mix the two styles together as you see fit. There, a non-ganster role for minorities in games.

[civx]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of closet racists in this thread.

[H.Bogard]

Name a game with a black hero. Takes a bit of thinking, doesn't it?


For every Tommy mafioso, there's at least 5 fighty whitey John/Jack action heroes; give me one example of a black hero in a game. Even if you can name one, there's no way you can name two.


Nope....The suffering! best damn action hero .....EVER!

Blade (ok this one dont count :p )

Jet grind radio

(unreleased) bad day LA

the commander guy from Halo

(unreleased) ut2007 guy

alyx from half life 2 (shes a heroine isnt she!)

i can keep going but seriously i got some work to do :(

[bandersnatch]

I really can't comment too much on the racial diversity but as for women...

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/magazine/morgan-webb-gets-fhm-gig-116158.php

Any surprise why they're not taken seriously? Seems like if given a chance, they have no problem getting into a bikini to further attention whore it up.

[civx]

I really can't comment too much on the racial diversity but as for women...

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/magazine/morgan-webb-gets-fhm-gig-116158.php

Any surprise why they're not taken seriously? Seems like if given a chance, they have no problem getting into a bikini to further attention whore it up.

I don't think one attention whoring "grrl gamer" represents all girl gamers.

Better luck next time.

[Eon]

These days we are more interested in conflicted characters. The fact is that you cannot introduce many interesting character flaws to black characters - even some that you can now get away with in female characters cannot be applied to ethnic minorities.

The character of CJ commits few morals wrongs that would seperate him from the usual mass murdering, thieving law breaker that is a videogame character.

[Librum]

Everyone seems to have forgotten one of the most prominent black (or at least very dark skinned of indeterminate ethnicity?) characters in PC games of all time, the Paladin from Diablo 2. Even the Sorceress is not just female, but also non-white. But I feel they did that more from a genre-busting angle (let's make Paladins come from a non-European-esque setting) than a 'we must have people of 'x' ethnicity in our game'

Not to mention that most MMORPGs currently let you play characters of any skin color or sex.

Part of it has been just an issue of the market demographics which has only started to change over the last few years to any significant degree.

[EL CABONG]

There are plenty of black people in games who ever wrote this story is just being a tardo. The cover of Madden is often black as is the cover of most sports games. in many games you can create your own avtar any color you want like in guild wars or wow or something.

[civx]

There are plenty of black people in games who ever wrote this story is just being a tardo. The cover of Madden is often black as is the cover of most sports games. in many games you can create your own avtar any color you want like in guild wars or wow or something.

Yes, being put on the cover of Madden is plenty of black people in games.

[EL CABONG]

These days we are more interested in conflicted characters. The fact is that you cannot introduce many interesting character flaws to black characters -.
Right on, if the media wasn't so dam PC and ready to tear apart anything that appears not to be companies would be less afraid of puting minorties in games.

I would not mind more blacks in games. Hell if it meant less spikey haired bug eyed teens out to save the world in games then all the better.

[entropy123]

It's not about representation, they're talking about misrepresentation.

Popular culture proliferates cultural stereotypes. The fact that San Andreas is used as an example is because there aren't any convenient counter examples. Name a game with a black hero. Takes a bit of thinking, doesn't it?

Gender-wise it's undeniable the industry needs to diversify, it's the same for color.

No thinking required at all: I-WAR (Independence War). Great game.

[01010]

I have a question. Given the subject matter and the inspirations that San Andreas has, would it make any sense whatsoever to have a white guy play the role? How many white protagonists were the in the films that obviously inspired the game?

God damn I hate the politically correct left wing as much as I hate the racist right wing. People are fucking people and the more focus you bring to skin colour the more the issue of it being an issue will keep coming up.

How about all games from now on have a rainbow coloured sheet of paper as the "hero" , that way no fucker gets offended (except maybe people who protest that the paper isn't clearly defined as coming from a renewable source).

[fitbabits]

How about all games from now on have a rainbow coloured sheet of paper as the "hero" , that way no fucker gets offended (except maybe people who protest that the paper isn't clearly defined as coming from a renewable source).

Can't do that either as the gay rights movement would have a field day! :rolleyes:

[EL CABONG]

I have a question. Given the subject matter and the inspirations that San Andreas has, would it make any sense whatsoever to have a white guy play the role? How many white protagonists were the in the films that obviously inspired the game?

God damn I hate the politically correct left wing as much as I hate the racist right wing. People are fucking people and the more focus you bring to skin colour the more the issue of it being an issue will keep coming up.

How about all games from now on have a rainbow coloured sheet of paper as the "hero" , that way no fucker gets offended (except maybe people who protest that the paper isn't clearly defined as coming from a renewable source).
I agree. Its kinda like afirmative action. If someone says you have to have x of this race and x of that, its raceist and unfair anyway you cut it and not just too white people if some school has to let in x latins or whatever then some asian's with as good or better grades might not get in. Instead of not looking at race at all and just grades and whatever which is how it should be.
My point that I am trying to make is the more people play the race card or people in the media try to look for raceism (don't get me wrong some raceism exists and I am not for it) when it isn't really there just makes things worse for everybody.

[mister_slim]

These days we are more interested in conflicted characters. The fact is that you cannot introduce many interesting character flaws to black characters - even some that you can now get away with in female characters cannot be applied to ethnic minorities.
That would be a better excuse if more white characters were actually well written.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

I have a question. Given the subject matter and the inspirations that San Andreas has, would it make any sense whatsoever to have a white guy play the role? How many white protagonists were the in the films that obviously inspired the game?

Huh? This isn't the point at all.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

That's funny. Not every white guy builds a drug empire in Miami while listening to Amy Holland and Iron Maiden, but that's what the GTA game before the one in question was about. Interesting how similar behavior became insensitive when the lead character was no longer white!

ALTERNATE RESPONSE:



But it's a masterpiece when it's in movie form and directed by Spike Lee.

I'm curious, I'm not sure what movie you are referring to. Please reference this movie.

[fitbabits]

I'm curious, I'm not sure what movie you are referring to. Please reference this movie.

I believe that *Legion* is referring to GTA: Vice City, not any movie. Still, the reference could have been clearer.

[01010]

Huh? This isn't the point at all.

Sorry, this was more of a reference to the whole "GTA has a black man as a criminal, how sterotypically racist" type thing.

I think for such a young medium, games are pretty fucking diverse in what they cover and to say they need to pander to certain groups to keep them from complaining is idiotic.

For example, my girlfriend has absolutely no problem playing CJ, or the white guy in Painkiller, or one of the girls from Dead Or Alive 3, in fact, myself, I don't think I even take into consideration that my avatar is anything other than a digital representation of me playing the game.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of closet racists in this thread.

No sh_t.

Slightly off topic

Let me tell you, if you have ever played Halo 2 online, then you would hear the word "nigga" used in I'd say roughly 1/5 to 1/3 of the games you play in...and not generally from African American people. As an African American, I can assure you that this detracts from the experience of playing online. It is interesting to hear how people think and speak when they are anonymous though. They say things they normally wouldn't say in public, or if a person of color was in the same room with them. I got so sick of hearing it that I rarely play the game anymore....and I like Halo 2 online.

On topic
As for Videogames not having enough positive role models, we have named about 10 or 12. Three of those were movie licensed so they were gimmes (Naiobi from Enter the Matrix, Blade from Blade II and MJ from Space Jam). Consider how many videogames were made on the PS2 and Xbox. Now, can anyone name a latin hero from any of those games (main character, not supporting cast)?
Now, what is the proportion of this to the games made (one report stated that there were more than 1,300 games for PS1 and over 700 for PS2)? What is this in proportion to those who play videogames? Lastly, what is this in proportion to the developers who are minorities? This will tell whether or not there is a problem in the industry.

But I think the point of this will be lost on a great deal of people who read the post...because it won't affect you.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I believe that *Legion* is referring to GTA: Vice City, not any movie. Still, the reference could have been clearer.

Hmmm,
But it's a masterpiece when it's in movie form and directed by Spike Lee.

Maybe, I do find it an interesting statement though.
Ok, what movie is he referencing that Spike Lee made that was similiar to this? Which movie could he have been referencing that would have made him even bring up Lee? Here is his filmography...

Director - filmography
(In Production) (2000s) (1990s) (1980s) (1970s)

Inside Man (2006) (filming)
All the Invisible Children (2005) (completed)
Jesus Children of America (2005)
"Miracle's Boys" (2005) (mini) TV Series (episodes 1 and 6)
"Sucker Free City" (2005) TV Series
Sucker Free City (2004) (TV)
She Hate Me (2004)
25th Hour (2002)
Ten Minutes Older: The Trumpet (2002) (segment "We Wuz Robbed")
Jim Brown All American (2002)
Come Rain or Come Shine (2001)
The Concert for New York City (2001) (TV) (segment "Come Rain or Come Shine")
A Huey P. Newton Story (2001) (TV)
Bamboozled (2000)
The Original Kings of Comedy (2000)
Summer of Sam (1999)
Pavarotti & Friends 99 for Guatemala and Kosovo (1999) (TV)
Pavarotti & Friends for the Children of Liberia (1998) (TV)
Freak (1998/I) (TV)
He Got Game (1998)
4 Little Girls (1997)
Michael Jackson: HIStory on Film - Volume II (1997) (V) (video "They Don't Care About Us")
Get on the Bus (1996)
Girl 6 (1996)
Lumière et compagnie (1996)
... aka Lumière and Company (International: English title)
... aka Lumiere y compañía (Spain)
Clockers (1995)
Crooklyn (1994)
Malcolm X (1992)
... aka X (USA: poster title)
Jungle Fever (1991)
Mo' Better Blues (1990)
Do the Right Thing (1989)
School Daze (1988)
She's Gotta Have It (1986)
Joe's Bed-Stuy Barbershop: We Cut Heads (1983)
Sarah (1981)
The Answer (1980)
Last Hustle in Brooklyn (1977)

I don't want to put any words into *legions* mouth. I'd like to know why he pulled Spike's name out of what appeatrs to be 'thin air'. I haven't seen any of his movies that would make me think of Lee and a GTA.

John Singleton...he could have used.
Allen or Albert Hughes, he could have used.
But, Spike??

[GrinR]

Oh, I forgot Shadowman. He was black.. I think.

One other thing - I've never met anyone who didn't have preconcieved notions of other people based on their visual qualities, positive or negative. We don't live in a static world, and as long as that remains true we will make judgements based on our experiences. I'm a racist, just like you.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I forgot Shadowman!! That was a fun game and an interesting character.

Now that is a game that would be sweet as a next gen title. You hear that Acclaim?! Oh wait...didn't Acclaim file bankruptcy? Might be an IP you could pick up relatively cheap. I'm just happy to hear Shadowrun will be coming to the 360 exclusively.

[jeffool]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of closet racists in this thread.Closet? They're still in the closet and say thing like "that black guy in really-bad-/-old-game is a black guy!"? That's a scary thought. As if there could ever be a black Mario.

[splatstick]

Depressing thread, just when I start liking everyone at EvAv.
Guys, just the fact that we feel the need to LIST black people in videogames means there's a problem.
And if one more person mentions Madden or ESPN, I swear to Christ I will beat the shit out of you.

[GrinR]

Closet? They're still in the closet and say thing like "that black guy in really-bad-/-old-game is a black guy!"? That's a scary thought. As if there could ever be a black Mario.

huh? I read this about 10 times and I still don't get it. You're saying the racism is not closeted at all? What does Mario have to do with it?

*sigh*

[GrinR]

Depressing thread, just when I start liking everyone at EvAv.
Guys, just the fact that we feel the need to LIST black people in videogames means there's a problem.
And if one more person mentions Madden or ESPN, I swear to Christ I will beat the shit out of you.

Race problems? NO WAY! :eek:

Trust me, it's much, MUCH better to talk about it than it is for it to be there unaddressed.

Reminds me of a good joke:

"What does every racist joke start with?"

*turn head both ways to look around*

[Paltry]

Originally Posted by jeffool
Closet? They're still in the closet and say thing like "that black guy in really-bad-/-old-game is a black guy!"? That's a scary thought. As if there could ever be a black Mario.

yea... not really following that one either

I like how being open and curt with these kinds of topics makes one a racist

An correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the main character in sin black? He was pretty fucking badass...

Maybe i shouldnt say that though cause apparently that makes me racist, somehow...

[MagicAlex]

Popular culture proliferates cultural stereotypes. The fact that San Andreas is used as an example is because there aren't any convenient counter examples. Name a game with a black hero. Takes a bit of thinking, doesn't it?

Not really. For all we know, Master Chief could be black. In Baldur's Gate, Deus Ex, or pretty much any RPG lets you make your character black. In Unreal Tournament the "poster boy" Malcom is black. Whether or not they're of African descent is a different story, but I know I don't care. Half the games I play don't have realistic people anyway.

[Cyrano]

I can't wait to play the next Grand Theft Auto game about being a role model. You can help old people cross the streat and hold down a well-paying 9 to 5 legitimate job.

Seriously, almost all videogame main characters kill and maim for a living, regardless of thier race. Except for Super Monkey Ball, and that's some twisted shit. And Nintendo games drawn in bright primary colors to appeal to five year olds.

[jeffool]

Sorry if I didn't make any sense. I'm saying that being 'closeted' generally means being secretive. This doesn't seem like people are being secretive at all here. People are actually listing famous black game characters and notable mentions include people like Jax from Mortal Kombat, and side-characters like Barrett from FF7. And in pointing out those characters, they see it as proof that there is honestly no problem with race in videogames. That really worries me.

And by the "As if there could ever be a black Mario." comment I mean that if you mention 'Mario', people will know he's a videogame character. There are no black characters that you can mention that people will say "The videogame character?"

[Paltry]

People are actually listing famous black game characters and notable mentions include people like Jax from Mortal Kombat, and side-characters like Barrett from FF7. And in pointing out those characters, they see it as proof that there is honestly no problem with race in videogames. That really worries me.

well you worry far too fucking much my man

why dont you worry about the the kkk and the nation of islam if your worried about racism

the skin color your electronic avatar is the last thing a crusader of civil rights like you should be worrying about in our lovely little fucked up world

[Zeal]

People will always find something to bitch about.

[Liquidize105]

People will always find something to bitch about.
You mean you're always and completely neutral? My god it's like you're not even there.


/on topic


The fact that the industry is full of white males and that it could have an effect on the games being made is real. So how about a little diversity to spice up the mix? The industry would only benefit from it.

And that, ladies and gents, is the whole point.

[Paltry]

the industry is full of white males and the majority of the industry's audience are white males

gee what a surprise there are a bunch of games with white males as the lead roles

that is SO unfair

im gonna go wring my hands in a corner

[Zeal]

The game industry is going to market to its core audience. It's just business, not political correctness.

It's the same deal with the movie industry.

And besides, trying to be 'diverse' or politically correct usually just stifles creativity, it doesn't encourage it.

And by the way, the hypocrisy of that article is laughable.

[GrinR]

Fuck diversity. I want games that have compelling characters. If they are white males every time, I'm fine with that. If they're black chicks, I'm fine with that as well.

Diversity can kiss my ass. You want diversity to "spice up the mix"?? Please - how racist is that? A game isn't "spicy" without non-whites in it?? Maybe we should have more soulful games with more blacks, or more exotic games with more asians, or more sexy games with more latinos?

[The Iron Weasel]

i think that this really is a non-issue with the characters, it all really depends on the game, if you go out of your way to just focus on the race of a character, and make everything in the game revolve around that the game will be bad, i think its really a situation that pends on context, honestly its really not an issue.

[splatstick]

the industry is full of white males and the majority of the industry's audience are white males

gee what a surprise there are a bunch of games with white males as the lead roles

that is SO unfair

im gonna go wring my hands in a corner

The majority of the industry's audience?
You wouldn't mind backing up that made-up statistic with FACT, would you?

[splatstick]

Race problems? NO WAY! :eek:

Trust me, it's much, MUCH better to talk about it than it is for it to be there unaddressed.

That's not what I'm talking about. Talking about it is great, it's comments like these:

I suppose you should ignore all those rappers from the 90s that made a career out of writing songs about lives just like that character. Heaven forbid art imitate a harsh reality we'd rather not think about.

But it's a masterpiece when it's in movie form and directed by Spike Lee.

Until people started whining about the main character being black nobody cared. Whites, blacks, asians, martians, whoever, they all just played the game and enjoyed the story.

that scream ignorance. evilpenguin, harsh reality? None of my black friends even OWN guns, except for one who owns a DEER RIFLE.
Legion, do you even know what the fuck you're talking about?
And Noiz, I'm really glad you're telling me what other ethnic group are thinking, it makes it a lot easier to justify your beliefs.
You know what sucks? Not being able to identify with any character in a movie or game. Let's rephrase the "listing black people in videogames" question everyone wants to answer. How about "How many non-2Dimensional black stereotypes are in video games?" I'd say a big part of the appeal of Halo is that everyone identifies with a faceless character.

I could go on, but I'm seriously getting pissed off so I'll stop.
Fuck, people are idiots.

[GrinR]

"You know what sucks? Not being able to identify with any character in a movie or game."

If you can't identify with a character because of the color of their skin, that says more about your sense of identity than it does about the artist's vision.

[Liquidize105]

Fuck diversity. I want games that have compelling characters. If they are white males every time, I'm fine with that. If they're black chicks, I'm fine with that as well.

Diversity can kiss my ass. You want diversity to "spice up the mix"?? Please - how racist is that? A game isn't "spicy" without non-whites in it?? Maybe we should have more soulful games with more blacks, or more exotic games with more asians, or more sexy games with more latinos?
That's so ironic it hurts to read.

Met any soulful blacks lately? Neither have I. And since when have asians ever been exotic? 1/5 of world's total population is asian.

Diversity here refers to the people behind the games, not the characters who star in them. People of different ethnic background can give you characters that are more compelling and believable.

You're critisizing an obviously good thing.

[splatstick]

I guess when you're in the majority it's not much of an issue for you, and it's easy to make judgements like that.

[bean19]

Most video games approach character avatars as a marketing tool. This leads to cliche avatars and the profligation of stereotypes.

Female characters suffer the most in this as probably 95% (maybe more, I struggle to recall exceptions to these subtypes) can be characterized as belonging in one of just two archetypes.

Femme fatales - Gorgeous and with huge breasts (BloodRayne, Tom Raider, every fighting game).

Stereotypical characteristics: Self-assurred, capable, sexy, menacing.

Ingenue (innocent girl) - Popular in every Japanese game so always seen in RPGs and often seen as the other female type in fighting games.
Stereotypical characteristics: lawfully good, guileless, naiive, chaste.

These simple character designs say a lot about their target audience. Femme Fatales serves male sexual fantasy while ingenues serve male romantic fantasy.

In contrast, male avatars have a greater number of cliche archetypes, but they are still cliches. Due to the fact that male characters are more likely to fill the role of a game's main character, I can think of a few exceptions to these archetypes, but I'd still say that 90 to 95% of male video game characters fall inot one of these cliche archetypes.

Young Adventurer (Archetypal Hero) - You see this character a lot in RPGs as they often follow the "Hero's Journey" plot schematic. Basically a young character presented with obstacles that he must overcome. The character's growth is defined by the adventure. Examples include (nearly every RPG ever, Link in the Legend of Zelda). Youthful appearance, usually cute (youthful beauty) but sometimes beautiful or handsome.

Stereotypical traits: Lawful good - he's the "hero" and will go out of his way to save the princess just because she needs saving. Sometimes naiive and guileless, but not usually. Easily excitable and quick to come to any emotion. . . anger, sadness, happiness, etc. Young heroes are generaly demonstrative in their emotions.

Anti-hero, Badboy - These bad boys are most famous for their silences that are often communicated with ellipses. They tend to be rogueishly handsome and are always hiding some "dark secret" that explains away their standoffish personality. Their clothing is almost always tight-fitting, costumey, and over-accessorized to the point that it would embaress anyone who is not a teenage metrosexual. Examples include Final Fantasy's Cloud and Squall (Tidus is a hero, Auron got to be the anti-hero in FF X), and Dante of "Devil May Cry".

Stereotypical traits: Chaotic good - They'll save the princess but only because they want something out of it, although their reward might be an emotional or philosophical one like finding themselves or impressing the girl they are too emotionally crippled to approach assertively. Anti-heroes are the kings of brooding; they tend to think a lot but it appears to be mostly for show or plot device to slow exposition (holding back information) as they rarely show any character growth as the result of their massive amounts of internal thought. Also, anti-heroes are only silent and distant to a point. If prodded enough they immediately become just as emotionally excitable as heroes.

Elder, Wise One - Old man (very rarely this is also a woman - usually a short-term story NPC). with wise information to impart. The father figure. They usually wear robes and have beards or at least some facial hair and are often wizards.

Stereotypical traits: These come in two flavors actually. . . "Wise and Stern" or "Wise and Crazy". Often cryptic in their speech and either emotionally charged and very serious if the Stern variation or extremely casual and often daft with the crazy variation.

Soldier - This is the most common cliche archetype but it also has a lot of variations. Square-jawed schauvinist with violent tendices (Duke Nuke'em, Master Cheif), Gruff Black guy (Barret from FFVII, Seargent in Halo), the Professional (Hitman, Splinter Cell, Soldier of Fortune, Bobba Fett).

Stereotypical traits: Masters of one-liner taunts and bragging. They are exceptional at whatever their feild of expertise includes, and this ALWAYS includes the "kicking ass" skill.

Pirate/Han Solo - Dashingly handsome rogue types.

Stereotypical traits: Chaotic Good - they always do the right thing for their own reasons but tend to think of worldy rewards as oppossed to anti-heroes. They are quick-witted, sexually forward, and often follow a perverse honor code.

Samurais/Knights/Ninjas - Hybrids of the other archetypes with a code of honor that is their central motivation.

Stereotypical traits: Very philosophical and either very silent or incredibly wordy once they get going on something that effects their honor.


How does this apply to the conversation at hand? Well, I wanted to make the point that characterization in video games is uniformly pretty simplistic. Sometimes main characters suceed despite being cliche due to the things that make ALL characters more interesting. . . the details.

C.J. from GTA: San Andreas is an example of a really well developed character in video games. You get a TON of his back story in the game. How his friends and family treat him, how he views the world, and what he is willing to do to try to get ahead, as well as a slew of character customization choices. C.J. is most definitely an anti-hero, but he is a well-rounded and well-developed anti-hero that grows and changes throughout the game.

Should there be more leading characters in video games that are good role models? That'd be nice. . . but what I want to see more than characters of any particular shade of skin, are more characters like C.J. Incredibly well written characters that I can understand even if their background is much different than my own.

[GrinR]

I guess when you're in the majority it's not much of an issue for you, and it's easy to make judgements like that.

What a bunch of whiney horseshit. First of all, what makes you think I'm in the majority? Second, it's not much of an issue unless your identity is race first and everything else second, which most people are not. Third, don't use some pathetic dismissal like, 'you're not like me, so you don't understand'. Screw you, we're all different. Welcome to the world, now grab your balls and hang on because it's a long, terrifying journey - if you're lucky. Does my being black make me understand your point any better? If it does, you need to take a long look in the mirror.

Don't stop until you can look past your skin color.

[splatstick]

Yup, you're definately white.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

What a bunch of whiney horseshit. First of all, what makes you think I'm in the majority? Second, it's not much of an issue unless your identity is race first and everything else second, which most people are not. Third, don't use some pathetic dismissal like, 'you're not like me, so you don't understand'. Screw you, we're all different. Welcome to the world, now grab your balls and hang on because it's a long, terrifying journey - if you're lucky. Does my being black make me understand your point any better? If it does, you need to take a long look in the mirror.

Don't stop until you can look past your skin color.

Wow, that was the special kind of argument that makes me feel happy to live in such a rich, diverse, understanding environment. Sure, dismissing the feeling and any validity of his statement as 'horseshit' was the way I would have went as well. (also see sarcasm)

Honestly guys, this is not the type of topic that changes the minds of anyone. Certain opinions are set in stone...it will take a strong force to make them change their mind. This topic only serves to make everybody a little bit angrier. I can tell you honestly that after seeing some of these posts, I won't look at the posters quite the same way again. I wish I hadn't even entered the topic because I knew I'd have to hear things that confirms that as much as things change, more things stay the same.

bean19 - very thoughtful post
GrinR - Do you even realize the stereotypical nature of your reply?? 'Soulful' Blacks, 'Exotic' Asians and 'Sexy' Latinos?? If you can't see this, then you have issues deeper than this post.
Splatstick - I couldn't have said it better myself. I've never fired a gun, my pants only sag when I'm taking them off, and none of my friends have sold and dope or have any gang affiliation. I do listen to rap...and alternative and mellow etc.
Liquidize - This is EvilAvatar, logic doesn't work here. Plus, you can type until your fingers are nubs. Your words won't change the opinions of people who have their views set.

[GrinR]

"GrinR - Do you even realize the stereotypical nature of your reply?? 'Soulful' Blacks, 'Exotic' Asians and 'Sexy' Latinos?? If you can't see this, then you have issues deeper than this post."

Read my post, that was the whole point. I was responding to the notion of diversity (aka more non-whites) being "spicy" by making fun of those very steriotypes. Think a director saying, "this plot is good, but let's spice it up a bit... let's make the love interest black!" Not hard to imagine - and precisely what I was ridiculing.

"Yup, you're definately white."

It's not important whether or not I am. What is important is that I don't classify myself as what race or color skin I have. People of my race(s) love to cite their race either as some kind of cross they must bear, or as a badge of pride - either way using their race as their primary source of identity. No matter how you cut it, it's racism.

Your dismissal of people who don't see your hypocritical racist view only illustrates just how entrenched your bigoted and (I suspect) self-hating viewpoint is.

[Liquidize105]

Liquidize - This is EvilAvatar, logic doesn't work here. Plus, you can type until your fingers are nubs. Your words won't change the opinions of people who have their views set.
That's true for everybody online AND offline.

In this case, it's quite simple really: Diversity = good. Diverse opinion at EA? Good.

[Eon]

I am white, therefore race is not an issue for me. I do not understand the hundreds of ways that society supposedly favours me and hinders those of other races. I do not see the hypocrisy inherent in my well meaning but clumsy attempts to be politically correct or I am being dismissive of real issues if I do not seek to be politically correct.

I am supposed to applaud your need to define yourself by your race whilst ensuring that my peers are shunned as White Supremacist's for doing the same. I must observe the list of topics about which I am not allowed to hold an opinon including certain areas of history, politics and music.


Honestly - all video game characters are 2D stereotypes. As someone pointed out, CJ is an important and detailed character. He is complex. He is very 'real'. Compared to the generic brooding white guy in most games CJ is a work of art.

[Paltry]

Yup, you're definately white.

what are you? just a dick?

[splatstick]

what are you? just a dick?

Well... yeah, actually.

[Danin]

This thread in a nutshell:

"You don't agree with me, therefore your argument is bullshit and your world view is ignorant."

[Paltry]

Well... yeah, actually.

fair enough, i can respect that ;)