PS3 Devil May Cry 4 has Real Achievements

[bapenguin]

PS3 Fanboy (http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/01/04/devil-may-cry-gets-sixaxis-support-achievements/) has the scoop based on some recent review copies of Devil May Cry 4 for the Playstation 3. First the good. The game is going to feature and achievement system very much like the Xbox 360. What makes it different from previous attempts on the PS3 is you'll actually be able to view your friend's achievements online.

Also, the game supports SIXAXIS for camera control, which should make managing the camera a bit easier.

Now the bad.First is an annoyance that we're sure many will complain about: the 5GB install to remove the game's load times is not optional. When the game releases, you'll be forced to endure minutes upon minutes of waiting as the game copies gigabytes of data to your PS3 hard drive.

5GB on a 20GB PS3 isn't going to fly. Heck, even on the 40GB model that's a significant chunk of data.

[Norse]

It takes about 25minutes according to the latest 1UP yours podcast. I don't see how Sixaxis camera control will make it easier. When I play games the controller moves about a bit so if the camera follows my movement it'll be all over the place.

Achievements are fun, but what makes it work on the 360 is the fact that it's integrated in the X360 system.

[Johan]

Achievements are fun, but what makes it work on the 360 is the fact that it's integrated in the X360 system.

I agree. It's not the points or point total, it's the combination of the personal challenge (individual or corporate/online) AND the seamless integration with friends, whose achievements can be viewed/compared quite easily.

I don't care for the overall point aspect, but the rest of it is just absolutely ingenious. Someone better have gotten a raise over that one. :)

[MightyMouse]

I'm worried about what this means for the load times on the 360 version. The BluRay drive is slower than the 360's DVD drive, but the difference isn't big enough to justify having to put a giant chunk of data on the HD to make the PS3 version playable. Hopefully this is just a matter of the developers optimizing the experience for the PS3 since they can, and not a case of doing it because they have to.

[Mr.Green]

I'm worried about what this means for the load times on the 360 version. The BluRay drive is slower than the 360's DVD drive, but the difference isn't big enough to justify having to put a giant chunk of data on the HD to make the PS3 version playable. Hopefully this is just a matter of the developers optimizing the experience for the PS3 since they can, and not a case of doing it because they have to.

Has this been a problem with other games? No. This one should be just fine as well.

[MightyMouse]

But 5GB seems like an awful lot of data to put on the HD, doesn't it? I know the Oblivion PS3 team worked around their issues by duplicating game data on the disk (which cuts down seek times and improves the drive's cache performance), but I can't remember if they ended up putting a significant amount of data on the HD as well. If they did, I'm sure it wasn't 5GB. Anways, I think you're right and its not a problem. I'm just jealous of the PS3 owners because developers have more options for cutting down load times than they do on the 360. Mass Effect could have used some help in that department.

[Syl]

Considering that PC game installs are getting over 10 gigs, installing 5 gigs for a console game doesn't surprise me.

[Texas Speed]

Yeah, I kinda wish 360 games at least had an option to install data if you have a HDD. Oh, well, maybe next time.

[bapenguin]

It takes about 25minutes according to the latest 1UP yours podcast. I don't see how Sixaxis camera control will make it easier. When I play games the controller moves about a bit so if the camera follows my movement it'll be all over the place.

Achievements are fun, but what makes it work on the 360 is the fact that it's integrated in the X360 system.

25 minutes to install? Ouch.

[Norse]

When are these installs deleted? If a gamer has a 20GB version and buys four games that each needs a 5GB install, will he get an option to delete one game when he installs the fourth game? Do casual gamers know where they uninstalls these games?

[Ph00p]

I'm a new PS3 owner and I have to say needing to install a demo/game manually has got to be the most retarded thing I've ever experienced on a console, the fact that the machine is a paper weight whilst thats going on is a bit of the stupid side, multitasking anyone? Maybe its like the downloads, I understand at first you weren't able to multitask whilst downloading a demo or anything off the PSN, now you can.

5GB is a nice bit, considering I don't even know where the hell 10 gigs of my space has gone in only the first few days, its probably in demos and shit like that, but yea 5 gigs will be a bit much. The achievement part is nice.

I heard on 1up show though that the game felt better on the PS3? Is that still true? They said it was being developed for the PS3 then 2ndly on the 360?

Overall, I'm still finding my PS3 to be a nice bluray player than really anything else.
OT:
They need HOME and they need HOME FAST! It feels retarded trying to gather people together on the PSN as opposed to the ease on 360. Is there a way to read a message while in a game?

[mkelehan]

They need HOME and they need HOME FAST! It feels retarded trying to gather people together on the PSN as opposed to the ease on 360. Is there a way to read a message while in a game?
Can't read messages in games. Also, you can't even directly invite people to games through Home; you need to set up with them, verbally, where to find your game. It's just a chat room. Like lobbies used to be in online gaming services FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.

[KidCactus]

When are these installs deleted? If a gamer has a 20GB version and buys four games that each needs a 5GB install, will he get an option to delete one game when he installs the fourth game? Do casual gamers know where they uninstalls these games?
You can delete anything installed yourself. Installs are located on the top of the Game section in the XMB, under Game Data Utility.

[Norse]

You can delete anything installed yourself. Installs are located on the top of the Game section in the XMB, under Game Data Utility.

I know, but will old games be automatically deleted when you're installing a new game that requires more space than what's available?

[D.D.D.]

When are these installs deleted? If a gamer has a 20GB version and buys four games that each needs a 5GB install, will he get an option to delete one game when he installs the fourth game? Do casual gamers know where they uninstalls these games?

I really don't think anyone who can pay for a PS3 should worry about something as trivial as disk space when they should install a 100 gig+ drive from when they had bought it.
It feels like, "I had the money to buy the cheapest Benz but I had no money for nice rims.":rolleyes:
Seriously though, the install should be optional as someone mentioned duplicating data on the Oblivion game should eliminate the necessary install~

[KidCactus]

I know, but will old games be automatically deleted when you're installing a new game that requires more space than what's available?
I'm almost certain that the game will tell you there's not enough free space and that YOU have to delete something, since things in that folder is not only game installs but game expansions you've bought and other things like that. And it's also up to you to choose what to delete, it doesn't have to be things from that folder.

[Deadend]

I know, but will old games be automatically deleted when you're installing a new game that requires more space than what's available?

That is what I want to know, as the installing games should be made as seamless and painless to the consumer as possible, transparent, like the way the original xbox handled it with the cache.

Somehow, I really doubt the game needed the install space, but dealing with 256 mb of RAM on an engine designed for the 360... probably just made Capcom go "eh, fuck it, put in on the HD". But DMC tended towards having small areas with load times in between them, so I am guessing Capcom just did not like the longer seek times on the PS3.

[NightRain]

I can't remember what game it was, might have been Lair, Heavenly Sword or something else but it look like 45 mins just to play that thing by the time I installed it and downloaded the update for the game and then actually got to control the character. I have a 60GB version and already have like 30GB used and I don't have any demos installed. Requiring several GB's to install a game that is on Blu-Ray because of its storage capacity is dumb.

[NightRain]

I'm almost certain that the game will tell you there's not enough free space and that YOU have to delete something, since things in that folder is not only game installs but game expansions you've bought and other things like that. And it's also up to you to choose what to delete, it doesn't have to be things from that folder.

There was a bug in Ratchet and Clank. My friend had like 40GB free and it wouldn't install. He deleted the Heavenly Sword data and then it installed fine and he reinstalled Heavenly Sword. All in all the total process was way too long considering console gamers are use to "insert disc and play"

[KidCactus]

There was a bug in Ratchet and Clank. My friend had like 40GB free and it wouldn't install. He deleted the Heavenly Sword data and then it installed fine and he reinstalled Heavenly Sword. All in all the total process was way too long considering console gamers are use to "insert disc and play"
But why did you quote me?

[NightRain]

But why did you quote me?

Because you said "game will tell you there's not enough free space". I just wasn't sure if you were aware that a game could be bugged to tell you this even if you do have enough free space. Like Ratchet and Clank was.

[SalaciousPuck]

Having a year to ponder and look at the competition before releasing the PS3 - I'm dumbfounded that Sony didn't meet at least SOME features of XBL head to head. The achievement/gamertag stuff on XBL, while petty at first glance, is the most significant addition to gaming this generation, imo. An ad hoc system of achievements, where developers each build their own achievement system for each game misses the point, and only goes to show you what the PS3 is missing.

And, 5GB installs are why I avoid PC gaming whenever possible. That's ridiculous.

[KidCactus]

Because you said "game will tell you there's not enough free space". I just wasn't sure if you were aware that a game could be bugged to tell you this even if you do have enough free space. Like Ratchet and Clank was.
So because ONE game had a bug regarding free space, we should assume that could be the reason if other games tells you that there's no free space? Sure it could happen again, but I'd say it's not likely.

[Gorvi]

Oblivion installs about 4.5 GB over time. There is no initial install that I can recall, it just gradually installs data as you progress through the game and it loads.

[menage]

I'm just jealous of the PS3 owners because developers have more options for cutting down load times than they do on the 360. Mass Effect could have used some help in that department.

Mass Effect needed some tweaking, not a HD install. Andf then again, PS3 doesn't have ME now does it:P

Oblivion installs about 4.5 GB over time. There is no initial install that I can recall, it just gradually installs data as you progress through the game and it loads.

Does that mean that the first time is less streamlined if you go somewhere new?? Or is it just random bits of data? Sounds kind of weird to me.

[Norse]

Why not use caching instead of installing data before playing? Wouldn't that be a more smooth solution?

[bapenguin]

Oblivion installs about 4.5 GB over time. There is no initial install that I can recall, it just gradually installs data as you progress through the game and it loads.

That's how it should be done.

[Gorvi]

Does that mean that the first time is less streamlined if you go somewhere new?? Or is it just random bits of data? Sounds kind of weird to me.
Your first time entering an area fairly normal, but it loads noticeably quicker when you go back, if that makes sense.

[jadkins555]

This is freaking retarded. Part of the reason I got out of pc games and into console gaming was to avoid situations like having to install a game before playing.

[Gorvi]

I'm all for it if it actually eliminates load times.

[Gott]

Will they give it up with the sixaxis already? Enough is enough with them forcing that tacked on mechanic down our throats. Ugg

[Gott]

I'm all for it if it actually eliminates load times.

Of course you are Gorvi...of course you are.

[Grimmjow]

I don;t see the problem, if we can install the game why wouldn't you? Everyone has a hard drive, so why not use it. Whatever old games you play that needed an install ,Jus delete it. it's not a hard concept. Every dev has different methods so why make a big fuss about it.

[Chainblast]

This really is a non-issue and I don't know why people are whining about it. Oh right it's Sony, bust-out the megaphone! Seriously, 25m isn't going to kill you unless you're some inpatient dick and making 5 gigs of space available is hardly a trying task. I have the 60GB model and have 50GB of free space. The solution is quite simple, delete the crap you no longer use. Compromise and adapt. If your storage managing skills are so inept go drop a $50 on a larger HDD.

[Vermy81]

Why the heck isn't this optional? you'd think since it was going to be on 360 they'd have to have some method of making the game work without a big Hard drive there. I'd be happy to have an install and no load times but at the same time options are good too.

[Shankle Bunny]

I'm all for it if it actually eliminates load times.

I agree with you, however 5 gigs seems a bit excessive.

[Sir Kodiak]

Of course you are Gorvi...of course you are.

I actually have to go with Gorvi on this one. If the load times are as much better on the PS3 than on the 360 as this should make them, this could be the first multi-platform game I get on the PS3.

As for the fact that it's 5 GBs, it does seem like a lot, but it's not like I'm having space issues, so I'm fine with it.

[Norse]

Has Capcom confirmed that it's not optional? If I had filled my PS3 drive with music and movies would it be impossible to even play this game, or is some HDD space always reserved for game installs?

[Beelzebud]

This is freaking retarded. Part of the reason I got out of pc games and into console gaming was to avoid situations like having to install a game before playing.

You do know that you don't have to install it every time you play, right? :D

[karaliusbronius]

Gee, glad I put a 120G drive in my computer. hahahahahaha
Oh no, 5G, what am I ever going to do??????? AHHHHHHH NOOOOO 5G, that's like MY HOLE HARD DRIVE!!!!!!

What are the people with 40G models going to have to delete some demos...... retards, it's their fault for getting a 40G or they should be thankful that their parents bought them one. It takes 60 secs to replace the PS3 hard drive with a new/bigger one.

[NightRain]

Gee, glad I put a 120G drive in my computer. hahahahahaha
Oh no, 5G, what am I ever going to do??????? AHHHHHHH NOOOOO 5G, that's like MY HOLE HARD DRIVE!!!!!!

What are the people with 40G models going to have to delete some demos...... retards, it's their fault for getting a 40G or they should be thankful that their parents bought them one. It takes 60 secs to replace the PS3 hard drive with a new/bigger one.

I think it has more to do with the money you have to spend on top of actually buying the console to get a larger hard drive. 60 seconds is a huge under estimate too though since it has to be formated and what not. Maybe like 10-15 mins is more acceptable time.

Also if you have the 40GB after you update the firmwares and what not you actually only have like 30-32gb to work with.

I completely deleted everything from my 60GB a while back and only had 51gb free I have no idea where the remaining space is gone too. I may be getting a 250gb-320gb HDD for my laptop later this year if I do I'll take the 120gb from that and use in my PS3.

I also don't think I should have to worry about deleting installed games that I own to make room for more games. I only own 6 PS3 games right now so its not a big deal. But if I had to install 200mb - 5000mb for every game and had a large collection I'd be pissed if I wanted to play a game I haven't played in a while and had to decide what to delete in order to play it. I mean that isn't what console gamers are use too. Consoles should be plug and play.

Microsoft may only have a 20GB Hdd but they reserve about 6gb for backwards compatibility and disk caching. The 360 only caches the last 3 games you play I think which means you don't run out of that reserved space. Sure you have a smaller amount of drive space for demos and videos and stuff like that but you don't have to worry about retail games requiring you to delete content and other retail games you've installed.

Another reason I think this is dumb is because of how much Sony has bragged about the superior storage capacity of Blu-Ray. Problem with Blu-Ray is that it takes longer to load since the read speed is slower, this is another reason why games often load quicker on the Xbox 360 when compared to same game on PS3. I mean if you can load a game from DVD on the 360 and not require a massive HDD install why shouldn't the PS3 be able to do the same.

Sony and the game publishers also isn't doing a good job of letting joe public know games require install space for playing them. Neither are retailers, I bet if you ask most game retailers they'll tell you that the HDD is only for save games, videos, demos, etc. Most don't know about game installations, which is why a lot of people buy the 40gb now. In fact most stores like Walmart and other similar retailers don't even know the 40gb doesn't play PS2 games. This is my biggest gripe with Sony right now, their various PS3 models do things vastly different in some cases, but the average Joe doesn't know that. At least with Xbox 360 you know if you're getting a HDD or not.

Trust me I know people who bought 40GB PS3 and had no idea that it didn't play PS2 games, in fact the guy at Walmart even told him that "ALL" PS3's play PS2 games. The average person at Evil Avatar knows far more than the average consumer and that sometimes is a scary though.

Hell if you go to the PS3 tech specs page it doesn't even tell you the 40Gb won't play PS2 games. http://www.us.playstation.com/ps3/about/specs

At the bottom of the page it says "*** This product has limited backward compatibility with PlayStation® and PlayStation®2 format software. Many PlayStation®2 format software titles operate, but full compatibility is not guaranteed. Updating the system software may improve compatibility. Visit www.us.playstation.com for system software updates."
Nothing on that page has *** next to it so that it a terrible thing.

If you "EXPLORE" around a bit more then you'll find the 40gb doesn't have backwards compatibility but it isn't the easiest thing for the average consumer to find.

Please note how EBGAMES.COM makes note the PS3 40gb isn't compatible with PS2 games. http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=020285

Also note that BESTBUY.COM fails to mention that fact. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8588584&type=product&id=1190677842792

I just feel that retailers and Sony need to be informing customers better about these things, I feel it is their responsibility and they aren't doing it well enough.

[KingGorilla]

I would like to see more on the instal and the achievements. I wonder if it will be integrated with Home's trophy room.

[Gorvi]

Sony and the game publishers also isn't doing a good job of letting joe public know games require install space for playing them. Neither are retailers, I bet if you ask most game retailers they'll tell you that the HDD is only for save games, videos, demos, etc. Most don't know about game installations, which is why a lot of people buy the 40gb now. In fact most stores like Walmart and other similar retailers don't even know the 40gb doesn't play PS2 games. This is my biggest gripe with Sony right now, their various PS3 models do things vastly different in some cases, but the average Joe doesn't know that. At least with Xbox 360 you know if you're getting a HDD or not.
On the backs of games that require installs, there's a tag that denotes how much is required. As far as I'm aware, DMC4 will be the largest, followed by Oblivion. Other than those, I don't think any game has an install over 800 MB. I could be wrong on that, though.

As far as retailers, every one in my area has a sign by the PS3s saying that the 40GB units do not play PS2 games. And really, that's the only significant difference between the two current models, the 40 and 80GB. That's not exactly vastly different.

[Khash]

Wow, people are bitching because the PS3 uses its HDD for games? Wow... You guys will find anything to complain about. Fine, ya know what? Go play your Xbox 360 and till me how fun it is to sit in an elevator in Mass Effect every time you want to do anything.

[Khash]

On the backs of games that require installs, there's a tag that denotes how much is required. As far as I'm aware, DMC4 will be the largest, followed by Oblivion. Other than those, I don't think any game has an install over 800 MB. I could be wrong on that, though.
R&C has one just over 1GB and Heavenly Sword is over 2GB.

Seriously though, I can't believe people are complaining about this shit. Yes, it installs shit to reduce load times. How is that bad? Is it really that big a deal to just sit there for the three minutes it takes to install? Really really fucking pathetic.

[Siraris]

OH GOD NO I HAVE TO WAIT FOR A GAME TO INSTALL?!?!? The HORROR!!

You guys are a bunch of fucking babies. You have to install the game once so you don't have any load times when you play the game? Install the game, go do something else, come back, and you never have load times again while playing.

Hell, you could use the time it takes to install to bitch and moan on evil avatar some more.

[Khash]

OH GOD NO I HAVE TO WAIT FOR A GAME TO INSTALL?!?!? The HORROR!!

You guys are a bunch of fucking babies. You have to install the game once so you don't have any load times when you play the game? Install the game, go do something else, come back, and you never have load times again while playing.

Hell, you could use the time it takes to install to bitch and moan on evil avatar some more.
Some people will never be happy. I bet they just LOVE their 360 Cores that can't do shit.

[KingGorilla]

Are you worried about running out of space?
http://www.gamersreports.com/article/43/
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010150380+4027+1035507777+1309721217&name=160GB
Sub 100 dollars for 160 GB.

[NightRain]

On the backs of games that require installs, there's a tag that denotes how much is required. As far as I'm aware, DMC4 will be the largest, followed by Oblivion. Other than those, I don't think any game has an install over 800 MB. I could be wrong on that, though.

As far as retailers, every one in my area has a sign by the PS3s saying that the 40GB units do not play PS2 games. And really, that's the only significant difference between the two current models, the 40 and 80GB. That's not exactly vastly different.

2GB for Heavenly Sword according to my system. Most my games are around 200-500mb.

Your area isn't all areas. I find that EB Games do a good job of informing people. I find Walmart does a terrible job. Futureshop here isn't too bad as long as you buy from a good sales person.

[NightRain]

R&C has one just over 1GB and Heavenly Sword is over 2GB.

Seriously though, I can't believe people are complaining about this shit. Yes, it installs shit to reduce load times. How is that bad? Is it really that big a deal to just sit there for the three minutes it takes to install? Really really fucking pathetic.

Funny my R&C is only 417MB, I just checked.

[Gorvi]

Your area isn't all areas. I find that EB Games do a good job of informing people. I find Walmart does a terrible job. Futureshop here isn't too bad as long as you buy from a good sales person.
I realize my area isn't all areas, but Walmart is actually what I was referring to. Target as well. Realize that your area isn't all areas as well.

As far as Heavenly Sword, why actually keep the install around once you're done with the game? Especially with Heavenly Sword.

[NightRain]

I realize my area isn't all areas, but Walmart is actually what I was referring to. Target as well. Realize that your area isn't all areas as well.

As far as Heavenly Sword, why actually keep the install around once you're done with the game? Especially with Heavenly Sword.

I'm not claiming my area is all areas, I'm just claiming that retailers and Sony need to improve their tactics of informing their customers. The customer trusts the retailers and Sony, if they are getting inconsistent information it isn't fair.

I have a simple solution, a sticker about the size of a silver dollar or a little larger on the 40GB that says "NOT compatible with PS2 games" and on the 80GB saying "Compatible with MOST PS2 games". Simple solution.

I have already deleted my Heavenly Sword install, but again I bet the average joe doesn't know they can delete that data, not to mention how to delete it. Instructions do delete this data isn't included in the manual included with the PS3 console or any of the games that I own. It can be found on the PS3 support website by search "game data utility" though.

[NightRain]

On the backs of games that require installs, there's a tag that denotes how much is required. As far as I'm aware, DMC4 will be the largest, followed by Oblivion. Other than those, I don't think any game has an install over 800 MB. I could be wrong on that, though.

As far as retailers, every one in my area has a sign by the PS3s saying that the 40GB units do not play PS2 games. And really, that's the only significant difference between the two current models, the 40 and 80GB. That's not exactly vastly different.

On the back of the games it doesn't give you an accurate measurement of HDD requirements. Heres an example based on games I personally own.


Game title ---------- Package HDD Req. ----------- Actual Space Used

Folklore ------------------------- 37MB ---------------- 240MB
Motorstorm -------------- at least 775KB -------------- 103MB
Ratchet & Clank -------------- at least 510KB -------------- 417MB
Resistance -------------- at least 110MB -------------- 200MB
Uncharted -------------- at least 2.56MB -------------- 438MB
Warhawk -------------- at least 810MB -------------- 837MB


As you can see some of them list less than 1MB but actually use several hundred MB, how is this not confusing to the customer. Hell my R&C save file takes more than 510KB.

So as you can see you can't always rely on the manufactures information.

[Disgustipated]

I'd be happy to install games. Fuck disc streaming, HD installs are way faster.

[BlackPete]

What's next? CD Key entry for consoles? :rolleyes:

[Rune_74]

I find it funny people complaining about the load times for mass effect...there nowhere near as bad as some sdf members would like you to believe...I actually rarely notice it...a whole 5 secons on an elevator max wah wah wah!

I don't think people are complaining about the install what they are complaining about is the size of the install and the fact it is required and not optional...which should not even get a pass by Siraris or gorvi on that....

[Gorvi]

I find it funny people complaining about the load times for mass effect...there nowhere near as bad as some sdf members would like you to believe...I actually rarely notice it...a whole 5 secons on an elevator max wah wah wah!

I don't think people are complaining about the install what they are complaining about is the size of the install and the fact it is required and not optional...which should not even get a pass by Siraris or gorvi on that....
I'll totally agree that it should be optional. Anyone with a PS3 other than the 20GB should have more than enough space to do the install, and even then, having room shouldn't be a huge deal. I deal with 5 GB free on my 360 just fine after FFXI and various DLC is accounted for. Wasn't the one of the knocks against Sony that while they have big HDDs in their consoles that there's nothing to put on them? Well, now here's something.

NightRain, you're right, that is quite misleading. Are the installs required on all of those that say "at least"?

[KidCactus]

I find it funny people complaining about the load times for mass effect...there nowhere near as bad as some sdf members would like you to believe...I actually rarely notice it...a whole 5 secons on an elevator max wah wah wah!
5 seconds? One line in the conversations they have in the elevators some times are longer than 5 seconds.

[NightRain]

I'll totally agree that it should be optional. Anyone with a PS3 other than the 20GB should have more than enough space to do the install, and even then, having room shouldn't be a huge deal. I deal with 5 GB free on my 360 just fine after FFXI and various DLC is accounted for. Wasn't the one of the knocks against Sony that while they have big HDDs in their consoles that there's nothing to put on them? Well, now here's something.

NightRain, you're right, that is quite misleading. Are the installs required on all of those that say "at least"?

Yes, they are required. When you insert the disc the first time it copies data. If you delete the data you can't play the game until you install the data again.

[Johan]

I hear you actually have to insert the disk to play some of these games, too!

Man...and here I thought way back in my post that the interesting thing in this thread topic was the "achievements!" How wrong I was to not even care about the HDD load.

What a load, too! :D

[Vandenh]

Strange that the original XBox never had to install games. Halo 1 had no load times... why can't Capcom just cache during cutscenes between levels (and yes ofc they have cutscenes between levels). All sounds a bit lazy to me.

[Ultima Thulian]

Five gigs is a bit much, but considering everything...how cheap memory is, no load times, etc etc etc. I dig this. And I can always unistall the game later, no? Sounds PC-ish, which I'm fine with, especially if it gets rid of load times. I'll likely get DMC4 for the PS3 because I've been playing that series on the Dualshock for years now, so my choice is due to controller preference. Though generally speaking, I like the 360 pad the most.

[Rune_74]

5 seconds? One line in the conversations they have in the elevators some times are longer than 5 seconds.


When you play the game the majority of loads are that long....sometimes they have conversations...alot of the time they do not...

[KidCactus]

Man...and here I thought way back in my post that the interesting thing in this thread topic was the "achievements!" How wrong I was to not even care about the HDD load.
Why focus on something good when there's something "bad" too? Haven't you been here long enough to know that's not how it's done here? :p

[KidCactus]

When you play the game the majority of loads are that long....sometimes they have conversations...alot of the time they do not...
I'm pretty sure I'd put money on that it takes at least double that time in almost every elevator ride.

[Rune_74]

I'm pretty sure I'd put money on that it takes at least double that time in almost every elevator ride.

Then I would say get your watch checked. How far have you played in the game?

[KidCactus]

Then I would say get your watch checked. How far have you played in the game?
Far enough to have taken a lot of rides in elevators. I'll be sure to time it next time I play.

[Adam Blue]

If i'm going to install 5gb of a game on my ps3, i shouldn't have to use the disc. Data management shouldn't go as far as having to delete essentials to play a game that i don't have room for. But don't get me wrong, i'm all about shorter load times.

[Rune_74]

Far enough to have taken a lot of rides in elevators. I'll be sure to time it next time I play.


Do you even own the game? I'm getting more curious now...do you even own the 360? There are elevator rides but to me they beat the hell out of a loading screen....bt they are no where near as bad as you are making out.

[Siraris]

I find it funny people complaining about the load times for mass effect...there nowhere near as bad as some sdf members would like you to believe...I actually rarely notice it...a whole 5 secons on an elevator max wah wah wah!

I don't think people are complaining about the install what they are complaining about is the size of the install and the fact it is required and not optional...which should not even get a pass by Siraris or gorvi on that....

You have a really strange perception of time. Every single load on those elevators take at least 15-20 seconds MINIMUM.

[Norse]

Wouldn't it be better if the PS3 reserved 5GB of HDD space which games could use for caching. That way all the space the user sees can be spent however the user like. In addition games could have the option of HDD installation. That installation could be timed so that after 1month it would be deleted automatically.

[Rune_74]

You have a really strange perception of time. Every single load on those elevators take at least 15-20 seconds MINIMUM.

I would say you only saw/played the citadel level then because y ou my sir are plain wrong, I was playing it this morning on an ice world (name escapes me at the moment) trust me it was quick...and there were no conversations on the elevators at this place.

[bapenguin]

On the back of the games it doesn't give you an accurate measurement of HDD requirements. Heres an example based on games I personally own.


Game title ---------- Package HDD Req. ----------- Actual Space Used

Folklore ------------------------- 37MB ---------------- 240MB
Motorstorm -------------- at least 775KB -------------- 103MB
Ratchet & Clank -------------- at least 510KB -------------- 417MB
Resistance -------------- at least 110MB -------------- 200MB
Uncharted -------------- at least 2.56MB -------------- 438MB
Warhawk -------------- at least 810MB -------------- 837MB


As you can see some of them list less than 1MB but actually use several hundred MB, how is this not confusing to the customer. Hell my R&C save file takes more than 510KB.

So as you can see you can't always rely on the manufactures information.

Can anyone else verify this?

My biggest problem with this is, consoles are consoles and pcs are pcs. If I wanted to deal with installs, uninstalls, tweaks, etc I'd game more on my pc. On my console, I just want to put the disc in and play. A 45 minute install is not my idea of fun on any system.

[MrSatan]

Yeah that does seem quite excessive, but if it makes the load times butter smooth then i don't have a problem. Capcom developed this on a platform designed for the PC, so the PC version will probably be the smoothest (which is really, really weird for Capcom development). Strangely enough the PC version is still marked to come out later, but that is probably localization issues since the sales for console games seem to dwarf pc gaming sales.

[51|RandoM]

The BluRay drive is slower than the 360's DVD drive, but the difference isn't big enough to justify having to put a giant chunk of data on the HD to make the PS3 version playable.

Not exactly. It depends on where you're reading from on the DVD. Is part of the DVD faster than BD? Yes. Is part of it slower? Yes. CAV vs. CLV.

Anyways, I'm glad they're using the harddrive and I'm glad they're making people use it, which guarantees that that particular method is the only one and that it will be optimized for just that.

As far as achievements go, they've been around forever, only people called them unlocks. I guess being able to compare them will be good for the e-peen-conscious. :)

[Rune_74]

Actually none if it is slower on dvd, blue ray is just slower at the outer edge of the disk. The closer you get to the center of any disk will be faster. The blue ray drive spins slower and at a constant speed.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/17/ps3s-blu-ray-drive-speed-could-be-reason-for-oblivion-delay/

[51|RandoM]

Your link doesn't disprove my statement. Feel free to keep trying though.

The article only says that the DVD is faster on the outer layers. Which is part of what I said. They just don't follow through on that thought. :)

Read a bit more on CLV and CAV. You will learn that it would be very unusual for a CAV drive to be faster on one area of a disc and not slower on the other area when compared to a CLV drive. It is most likely to be faster across the entire disc, or faster on part of it and slower on the rest of it. Faster on part of it and... the same on the rest doesn't make any sense.

I may be mixing CLV with CAV, as I never remember which is which, just how each works.

[Rune_74]

Why don't you prove me wrong? Or can't you? its the best link I could find....you find one better oh brilliant one.

[NightRain]

Can anyone else verify this?

My biggest problem with this is, consoles are consoles and pcs are pcs. If I wanted to deal with installs, uninstalls, tweaks, etc I'd game more on my pc. On my console, I just want to put the disc in and play. A 45 minute install is not my idea of fun on any system.

Which PS3 games do you own? I bet if you check they use more than the space on the package says.

[icronic]

The funny thing about Mass Effect is that the load times aren't actually that long, and while I'm certainly not trying to say they're short, I think that people are taking more of a visual cue from the speed of the elevator, than the actauly time it takes to get to the next floor.

I'd be willing to bet if the elevator moved faster but the load times remained the same length less people would comment.

As for DMC, aside from those with 20gb HDDs, who cares? Sure it's a silly move not to make it option, but it's not a huge deal either. Nobody should be making this big a deal of what really only amounts to a minor annoyance.

[51|RandoM]

Why don't you prove me wrong? Or can't you? its the best link I could find....you find one better oh brilliant one.

Just because your teachers failed doesn't make it my responsibility to take up where they left off. But what the hell, I'll give you a little homework assignment:

With a CLV drive, drive speed is variable, while transfer rate is fixed. If you were to graph transfer rate from the inner to the outer layer of a disc what would you get? Obviously you would get a horizontal line. Keep that horizontal line in your head for a bit.

Now, with a CAV drive, drive speed is fixed and transfer rate is variable. Since the drive speed is fixed, data passes under/across the read/write head faster the further you move outwards from the center of the disc. If you were to graph transfer rate from the inner to the outer layer of a disc, what would you get? You would get a line steadily moving upwards. Put that line in your head with the line from the CLV drive.

Now try to superimpose them. Pick a point on both lines and say that it is X transfer rate. Now try to do it in such a way that none of the following are true a) the CAV is always faster, b) the CAV is always slower, or c) it is both faster and slower, some of the line above, some below. You can't do it.

If you understand that, you understand what I've already said.

On the other hand, if the DVD drives(which, btw, are not all the same model), are a mixture of both CLV and CAV, then all of this is a waste of bits. :) On second thought, all of this is a waste of bits anyways because you are not interested in learning anything.

[Rune_74]

My teachers failed huh...god your an ass. I suppose you ignore the fact that the ps3 is using a 2x speed drive which no matter how you look at it will be slower then the xbox360 drive, because the way games are made they place the larger files at the outside of the disk which allows the drive to read the files faster. Its a documented problem with the ps3 that it has problems with transfer speeds no matter how you spin it. They would not require you to use the hard drive to install files if there was not a problem with drive speed and reading etc...look at oblivion for case in point. In theory yes everything come off at a constant speed but thats not how games are read.

How many games do you play where the disc is constantly reading the drive and bringing data across, not many in my book, actually I can think of zero.

God help anyone if you were there teacher, getting your point across without trying to be an asshole always works better then being a self righteous prick, but hey why stop now you are so good at being a prick.

[NightRain]

My teachers failed huh...god your an ass. I suppose you ignore the fact that the ps3 is using a 2x speed drive which no matter how you look at it will be slower then the xbox360 drive, because the way games are made they place the larger files at the outside of the disk which allows the drive to read the files faster. Its a documented problem with the ps3 that it has problems with transfer speeds no matter how you spin it. They would not require you to use the hard drive to install files if there was not a problem with drive speed and reading etc...look at oblivion for case in point. In theory yes everything come off at a constant speed but thats not how games are read.

How many games do you play where the disc is constantly reading the drive and bringing data across, not many in my book, actually I can think of zero.

God help anyone if you were there teacher, getting your point across without trying to be an asshole always works better then being a self righteous prick, but hey why stop now you are so good at being a prick.

In his defense 1x Blu-Ray is 4.5MBps, so the 2x drive is 9MBps. 1x DVD is 1350KBps so a 12x drive is 16200KBps or 16MBps roughly.

Here is a great example

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/profile/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=23916169&user=skektek

It isn't actually the transfer speeds that are the problem for the PS3, it is the seek time (the time is takes to jump from one piece of data to another basically). Some people put multiple copies of the data on the disc to reduce the distance the laser has to travel to reduce the seek time and increase read times overall. Oblivion is best know for this, they have everything on the disc 3-4 times.

[oldjadedgamer]

Is this the first ever PS3 with a required install? I thought they were all optional.

[NightRain]

Is this the first ever PS3 with a required install? I thought they were all optional.

None I know of are optional, everything I've played that needs an install and made me do it.

[Rune_74]

That was basically what I was trying to get across nightrain you just did it better, thanks.

[J3DI]

Random but topic driven question:
When it comes to digital media from the PSN, does it (like LIVE) allow you to delete content but also store/track it online to be downloaded again?

Also:
I'm curious as to if the achievements will be the same for both systems?

[mister_slim]

Can anyone else verify this?

My biggest problem with this is, consoles are consoles and pcs are pcs. If I wanted to deal with installs, uninstalls, tweaks, etc I'd game more on my pc. On my console, I just want to put the disc in and play. A 45 minute install is not my idea of fun on any system.

Don't know about Folklore or Warhawk. R&C is correct. Resistance must include patches and/or DLC, since mine is 129. Motorstorm doesn't do an install (though I wish it did) so that must include patches and/or DLC. Uncharted doesn't do an install. There is caching behind the scenes, 360-style. Not sure of the cache size.

My Rock Band has 1040MB of data, but that's all DLC. Assassin's Creed installs 1349MB. NG: Sigma also has a large install, though I don't remember the exact size.

[claws]

Wouldn't it be better if the PS3 reserved 5GB of HDD space which games could use for caching. That way all the space the user sees can be spent however the user like.
It sounds a good idea in theory, but it isn't because caching itself (i.e. storing frequently used data in a faster area) wouldn't fix the problem. Most of the game data is 'new' and there isn't much to cache, so they're doing the installs to bring all the load times to one central point. A 25 minute install is a one off annoyance, but frequent loading pauses make games almost unplayable.

[Siraris]

I would say you only saw/played the citadel level then because y ou my sir are plain wrong, I was playing it this morning on an ice world (name escapes me at the moment) trust me it was quick...and there were no conversations on the elevators at this place.

You should stop throwing around accusations about not playing the game. It's quite easy to check how far people have played by looking up their achievements in the game.

There is no way load times in the game were 5 seconds. Maybe certain quick loads for small switches between areas, but most loads were long.

[Siraris]

Random but topic driven question:
When it comes to digital media from the PSN, does it (like LIVE) allow you to delete content but also store/track it online to be downloaded again?

Also:
I'm curious as to if the achievements will be the same for both systems?

You can delete stuff, and redownload yes.

Achievements seem to be similar, yet different. Burnout Paradise has achievements on both systems, but PS3 ones are slightly different than 360.

[Rune_74]

You should stop throwing around accusations about not playing the game. It's quite easy to check how far people have played by looking up their achievements in the game.

There is no way load times in the game were 5 seconds. Maybe certain quick loads for small switches between areas, but most loads were long.


Then can you explain why the elevators on teh ice planet were not 30 some odd seconds or whatever you believe in your mind?

[bean19]

HAHAHAA!!! I totally called this years ago when they announced the Blu-Ray would be packed in (because I was annoyed at the higher price. . . works out for me now as I'll get a PS3 with a Blu-Ray player for only $400 or less when I finally buy one).

I'm happy they are doing this, and I hope that all PS3 games do this. I won't mind only being about to have ~5 games that I can play instantly (after the initial install). Really, I don't switch games around all that often, so spending a few minutes installing or deleting games so that I can play new stuff isn't that big of a burden. (5 is an approximation and only remains true if the install is just 5 GB for each game. Likewise, some of the space on my PS3 will be taken up for other things like downloaded demos and virtual memory. Also, I'm assuming that I'll be geting the "cheap" PS3 ($400)).

Thank you Sony for fixing this problem instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

[Siraris]

Then can you explain why the elevators on teh ice planet were not 30 some odd seconds or whatever you believe in your mind?

No

This message is too short because I don't feel the need to continue responding to this guys asinine questions about the load times of every single instance of Mass Effect

[Rune_74]

Guess if you are wrong you are wrong huh? Let it go Siraris let it go...

[Ultima Thulian]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o110/ultima13/kantkan.jpg

[Johan]

http://www.hschamberlain.net/kant/afb26.jpg

Here, therefore, we are compelled to have recourse to analysis, and in accordance with our principles this analysis must rest upon perception and not upon the abstract:

No, Ultima...you cannot (Kant!)

[Ultima Thulian]

NO! You're supposed to say, "No you Kant!"

:D Punnies, Johan. PUNNY!

[Johan]

NO! You're supposed to say, "No you Kant!"

:D Punnies, Johan. PUNNY!

Ninja edit!

[Durka-Dan]

Do you even own the game? I'm getting more curious now...do you even own the 360? There are elevator rides but to me they beat the hell out of a loading screen....bt they are no where near as bad as you are making out.

Really? First your accusing SDF propaganda of spreading the word of horrible load times (Whether it does or not, I don't know) and now your accusing a fellow member of not even owning the game? Is it lonely being that paranoid?

[Rune_74]

Hey if he's talking about the game is it not fair to ask if he actually has it? I mean come on, wouldn't you like to know?

[Ultima Thulian]

http://www.natambu.com/wp-photos/20070323-081701-1.jpeg

[NightRain]

Don't know about Folklore or Warhawk. R&C is correct. Resistance must include patches and/or DLC, since mine is 129. Motorstorm doesn't do an install (though I wish it did) so that must include patches and/or DLC. Uncharted doesn't do an install. There is caching behind the scenes, 360-style. Not sure of the cache size.

My Rock Band has 1040MB of data, but that's all DLC. Assassin's Creed installs 1349MB. NG: Sigma also has a large install, though I don't remember the exact size.

This is another thing, the amount used seems to vary. I've downloaded nothing for motorstorm, except if it asked for an update which I can't really remember. Same for Resistance and Uncharted, yet the space used is different for you, someone else claimed R&C was over 1gb for them in this thread so I'm not sure what to say.

[bapenguin]

Which PS3 games do you own? I bet if you check they use more than the space on the package says.

I've got Eye of Judgement and Unreal Tournament 3. I'll have to look later.

[mister_slim]

This is another thing, the amount used seems to vary. I've downloaded nothing for motorstorm, except if it asked for an update which I can't really remember. Same for Resistance and Uncharted, yet the space used is different for you, someone else claimed R&C was over 1gb for them in this thread so I'm not sure what to say.

I just popped in Resistance and after patching up to date it's 219MB. Odd. It's possible some metadata gets stored in game data rather than the save data folder.

[Chameleo]

every PS3 has a Harddrive in it - i'm glad devs are making use of it! finally the PS3 is pulling ahead of the 360 somewhat. anyone trying to make this look negative is just a 360fanboy or a console hater through and through.

this is awesome - SONY can finally deliver on the promise of "NO LOAD TIMES" that they've been touting since the PS1. hahaha.


and if you're outta HD space, just buy a new one. i love how you can put whatever harddrive into the PS3 and it'll work. a 500gb HD is 100 dollars. worth it in my eyes.

[absolut taco]

and if you're outta HD space, just buy a new one. i love how you can put whatever harddrive into the PS3 and it'll work. a 500gb HD is 100 dollars. worth it in my eyes.
You can use a 3.5" HD? I don't own a PS3 but I'm pretty sure you have to use 2.5" (laptop) drives and they are a bit smaller and more expensive than your example.

[Chameleo]

You can use a 3.5" HD? I don't own a PS3 but I'm pretty sure you have to use 2.5" (laptop) drives and they are a bit smaller and more expensive than your example.

oh damn. i never looked into that. scheisse. there goes my dream of loading up a PS3 w/ a 500gb HD. >_<

[51|RandoM]

Nevermind, let's talk about something else.

Sixaxis for camera control sounds kind of crazy.

[Gorvi]

According to the 1UP Show, this essentially eliminates all load times. I'd say that's worth it.

[Kamalot]

What are the people with 40G models going to have to delete some demos...... retards, it's their fault for getting a 40G or they should be thankful that their parents bought them one. It takes 60 secs to replace the PS3 hard drive with a new/bigger one.

Even if you spend 60 seconds to put a 120 gig drive into your PS3, it will still take around 25 min to install your 5 gig required game files off of the slow Bluray drive.

[Gorvi]

Even if you spend 60 seconds to put a 120 gig drive into your PS3, it will still take around 25 min to install your 5 gig required game files off of the slow Bluray drive.
25 minutes that you're not tethered to the console. You can actually go *gasp* do something else. If can't find something else to hold your attention for 25 minutes, you really need more to do in your life. To eliminate all load times, this is a worthwhile sacrifice. Hell, I'd do it gladly for every game I own.

[bean19]

every PS3 has a Harddrive in it - i'm glad devs are making use of it! finally the PS3 is pulling ahead of the 360 somewhat. anyone trying to make this look negative is just a 360fanboy or a console hater through and through.

It is good to FINALLY do it. They avoided this for the longest time because they wanted to avoid being the "long load times" console. They never admitted the problem even to fix it. So it's great that they are fixing it, and it could lead to even faster load times than the 360.

The only downside will be when you run out of space after "installing" 5 games (or so - their footprint will be different of course, but assuming you need some space for demos and you have a 40 GB PS3, about 4-6 games). So having to uninstall and reinstall will be a bit of a pain, but not NEARLY as big of a deal as waiting for 30-40 seconds on every load screen. That is a minor annoyance compared to a large one and people who argue that it is too big a disadvantage are as stupid as the people who argue that switching DVDs on really large 360 games every 10 hours or more is too much of a pain.

this is awesome - SONY can finally deliver on the promise of "NO LOAD TIMES" that they've been touting since the PS1. hahaha.

No. lol. Not "NO LOAD TIMES". Do you game on your PC? It's just FASTER. . . not immediate. It should probably bring the load times down to around 15-20 seconds.

and if you're outta HD space, just buy a new one. i love how you can put whatever harddrive into the PS3 and it'll work. a 500gb HD is 100 dollars. worth it in my eyes.

Okay, if a 500 GB HD will work right out of the box on your PS3, then that is pretty cool. It's an extra $100 I don't want to spend, but I'd maybe do it to be able to permanently install games. My fear with uninstalling would be that it would also uninstall game saves. They should be smart enough to separate them, but occasionally developers make perplexing choices.

[Kamalot]

Okay, if a 500 GB HD will work right out of the box on your PS3, then that is pretty cool.
I'd read that there was a size limit of hard drives that will work...

[Gorvi]

Okay, if a 500 GB HD will work right out of the box on your PS3, then that is pretty cool. It's an extra $100 I don't want to spend, but I'd maybe do it to be able to permanently install games. My fear with uninstalling would be that it would also uninstall game saves. They should be smart enough to separate them, but occasionally developers make perplexing choices.
I'm pretty sure the current limit is 250GB, but I can remember hearing somewhere that there would be up to 500GB HDDs available this year. As far as game saves, they're a completely different file. To delete the installed data, you simply have it highlighted, press triangle, select delete, and that's it. They're not even in the same "folder".

[absolut taco]

oh damn. i never looked into that. scheisse. there goes my dream of loading up a PS3 w/ a 500gb HD. >_<
you can get a 320GB for under $200 from newegg. Still a good deal.

[Ultima Thulian]

Even if you spend 60 seconds to put a 120 gig drive into your PS3, it will still take around 25 min to install your 5 gig required game files off of the slow Bluray drive.

But wouldn't the time saved from lack of load times counteract the wait for the installation? And wouldn't said lack of load times allow for more seamless gameplay? Would it then, be worth it? Twenty five minutes ain't that long. PC game installs can take up time as well. Now, before you say, "IF I WANTED A PC ID BY 1 LULZ!!11!1", hear me out. So far, it seems, this method only has two negative effects:

1. The wait for installation.
2. The 5gb it takes up on the hard drive.

Are any really that big a deal? The 5gb can always be deleted. And one can always replace it easily with a new hard drive. And they are pretty cheap nowadays. As for the wait, what about the wait from load times? The time eliminated from load times would either partially or completely counteract the time it takes to install.

I dunno, I think people are bitching for the sake of doing so here. Putting hard drives in game consoles was a smart move by MS. And Sony wisely followed suit. With hard drives in, would this not be a natural evolution of things? Hell, I'd love my 360 to allow for this. And I love my 360 (I don't have a PS3 just yet).

[Johan]

I'm wondering what "fake" achievements would be like...since these are "real."

[Rogue_hunter]

I really REALLY doubt it takes 25 minutes to copy 5 gigs. It took less than 5 minutes for 2.5 gigs for Spider-man 3 (bad game, but the onsale price and Bruce Campbell eased the pain), and Assassin's Creed had a 2 gig install that took maybe a minute or two.

[KingGorilla]

Even if you spend 60 seconds to put a 120 gig drive into your PS3, it will still take around 25 min to install your 5 gig required game files off of the slow Bluray drive.

Yeah, but the smoother gameplay experience would be worth it. I remember how bad Oblivion got with the 360 and it's cluster fucked caching. Stuttering movement, every couple of seconds I had to wait for textures and mobs to load. Not a problem on the PC with a full install. Not an issue with my buddy and the PS3.

[Rune_74]

You had to install 2.5 gb for spider man 3 on the ps3...you have to be joking...why on earth would that be required at all?

[KidCactus]

Hey if he's talking about the game is it not fair to ask if he actually has it? I mean come on, wouldn't you like to know?
Yes I do own a 360 and the game, which you easily could have checked since I have my gamertag in my signature.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=St06lvTztYM