Microsoft: 17.7M 360s Sold Worldwide [Archive]

DaXIthR

01-03-2008, 07:35 PM

From GameStop (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6184291.html?part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6184291).

Last month's full retail sales figures haven't been tallied just yet, but Microsoft today gave number-hungry gamers a few morsels to tide them over. Calling its Xbox 360 the industry leader "hands down," Microsoft announced that it had sold 17.7 million systems worldwide.

While that's the highest announced installed user base of the current-generation consoles--Nintendo in an October financial report projected worldwide Wii sales of 17.5 million through March of 2008--it suggests 2007 sales of the Xbox 360 were actually down nearly 18 percent from the year before.

At the company's early January Consumer Electronics Show keynote address, Microsoft announced an installed user base of 10.4 million, which would put 2007's tally at 7.3 million systems sold. Microsoft announced sales of 1.5 million for the system's 2005 launch quarter, which suggests 2006 sales would have totaled 8.9 million, significantly more than 2007's 7.3 million total.

The Xbox 360's biggest game to date also received a sales update, as Microsoft revealed that it had sold 8.1 million copies of Halo 3 since its September release. Combined with the hardware base, that suggests nearly 46 percent of Xbox 360 owners have purchased a copy of the Bungie-developed shooter.

Microsoft claims its other holiday-season sci-fi epic, the BioWare-developed Mass Effect, sold 1.6 million copies in its first six weeks on sale. The November release was intended to be the first installment of a trilogy for Microsoft and the Xbox 360, but it remains to be seen exactly what impact, if any, Electronic Arts' acquisition of BioWare will have on the series' future.

I'm leaning towards 'sold' here meaning 'sold to retailers' or 'shipped', as is MS' method. 2006 was much better for MS than was 2007. If was a certain company headquartered in Redmond, WA, I'd be concerned by these figures...

Thanks to Rune_74 for a similar submission

Johan

01-03-2008, 08:12 PM

2007 sales of the Xbox 360 were actually down nearly 18 percent from the year before.

People don't like to buy stuff that they know will break randomly, during normal use (like, when powered on). Word gets around, and people can see the vultures circling over the corpses of consumers' consoles, waiting for their coffins.

I've seen people here claim the problem is fixed. The "problem" as in singular? Yeah...right.

Deadend

01-03-2008, 08:13 PM

Kamalot

01-03-2008, 08:14 PM

People don't like to buy stuff that they know will break randomly, during normal use (like, when powered on). Word gets around, and people can see the vultures circling over the corpses of consumers' consoles, waiting for their coffins.

Agreed. If the 360s these days are more stable, Microsoft should be making some noise about it. 360s break. People know it.

Johan

01-03-2008, 08:14 PM

But apparently, they still do buy it.

I'd love to know how many of those sales are to customers who ditched/boxed/closeted their primary system for a new one...after the primary broke. Repeatedly.

Kamalot

01-03-2008, 08:15 PM

I'd love to know how many of those sales are to customers who ditched/boxed/closeted their primary system for a new one.

The world may never know in the same way the world will never know the number of replacement PS2s were purchased.

KingGorilla

01-03-2008, 08:18 PM

Why am I getting deja vu? I know that I am not the only one who has seen stores with enough unsold Xbox 360's to build an igloo with a 2 sled garage.

Kamalot

01-03-2008, 08:20 PM

Why am I getting deja vu? I know that I am not the only one who has seen stores with enough unsold Xbox 360's to build an igloo with a 2 sled garage.

I'll have to send you pictures of our Best Buy. It has columns of PS3s and they line the entire checkout aisle three boxes tall... the whole aisle.

KingGorilla

01-03-2008, 08:22 PM

I'll have to send you pictures of our Best Buy. It has columns of PS3s and they line the entire checkout aisle three boxes tall... the whole aisle.

I believe it. Still not a fucking Wii in sight though. But remember what happened to Penny-Arcade? No photography allowed. Neither one has much to brag about.

Vermy81

01-03-2008, 08:24 PM

Rafer

01-03-2008, 08:25 PM

I'd love to know how many of those sales are to customers who ditched/boxed/closeted their primary system for a new one...after the primary broke. Repeatedly.

Probably not many considering the good software attach rate.

Kamalot

01-03-2008, 08:27 PM

Probably not many considering the good software attach rate.

Good point! If people were buying replacements, then the overall, average attach rate would be lower since nobody buys games for a dead system.

Deadend

01-03-2008, 08:28 PM

I don't really htink this is RROD related in any big way. Their numbers are down because they stuffed the channel full of 360s to make their 10 million number on time. So they couldn't sell as many because there was a surplus of supply for a long while.

Wha? They couldnt sell because there were too many to sell?

Or do you mean too many of the pre-HDMI systems?

Johan

01-03-2008, 08:29 PM

Probably not many considering the good software attach rate.

Too true. I hadn't considered that, and the 360 does indeed have an insane attach rate.

I wonder how it compares to attach rates of past consoles at similar points in their lifespan? That would be interesting to me!

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 08:30 PM

I don't really see this as bad numbers...not wii numbers but that is a helluva alot of systems....I read this on joystick and a few people on their were commenting on how its hard to find premium and elites out in there area.

Also in the news was they sold 8.1 million halo 3's and 1.6 million mass effects.

Kamalot

01-03-2008, 08:37 PM

Also in the news was they sold 8.1 million halo 3's and 1.6 million mass effects.

8.1 million copies of Halo 3 is sick, and that game will continue to burn. The original box was seen as the Halo box. People kept buying the game, it was THE game to have. I didn't like Halo, but damned if I didn't have it anyway. I'm sure the same mentality will continue for many with the 360, Halo 3 being the de facto standard.

I stand in awe of the Halo phenomenon.

Talon-

01-03-2008, 08:38 PM

Oh my God. Can we grow up and stop the damn console mudslinging? :mad:

I also don't understand why the exact sales numbers affect me in my daily life. The XBox 360 is doing very well. Great! I own one and enjoy it. The Wii is doing exceptionally well. Great! I plan on owning one and hope to be able to play Chrono Trigger on it at some point. The PS3 is said to be doing well in Europe and seems to have a fantastic software catalog lined up next year. Great! I hope to get it to play FFXII next year (or the next).

All the companies are making money, which sounds like good times to me. More money = greater competition = better games (hopefully).

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 08:39 PM

see colon

01-03-2008, 08:46 PM

I believe it. Still not a fucking Wii in sight though. But remember what happened to Penny-Arcade? No photography allowed. Neither one has much to brag about.
Taking pictures in Best Buy is easy. Just bring a memory card with you can convince the guys at the cameras that you are looking for a new camera but are worried about image quality. He'll let you take a few pics, saved to your memory card, so you can bring them home and admire the photo quality. Just make sure the stack of systems is in view from the cameras.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 08:55 PM

Lets not even get into the fact that Microsoft has the PS3 and Wii this year as competition where they had basically none in 2006. That makes a huge differance.

Yeti2005

01-03-2008, 09:03 PM

Why am I getting deja vu? I know that I am not the only one who has seen stores with enough unsold Xbox 360's to build an igloo with a 2 sled garage.

You obivously haven't been to Best Buy recently then. There's a fair amount of 360s but the Best Buy in Orange Park FL had built a media "room" (I'm not kidding) with PS3s. The wall around the "room" was about 2 deep, 4 high. There was a TV playing a playing a Blu-Ray movie and a couch inside.

DaXIthR

01-03-2008, 09:11 PM

From Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/340355/microsoft-brags-about-sales-moves-much-mass-effect)

According to the company's crack PR team, Microsoft has a handful of sales figures for 2007's big releases to crow about. Mass Effect and Halo 3, as well as the Xbox 360 itself, have been selling in the "good to very good" range, they say. The company claims that some 17.7 million "chill white" consoles have been sold worldwide, which we'll read as shipped to retailers, naturally, since the 360 launched.

More impressive are figures for software, with Halo 3 shipping out some 8.1 million copies over the course of just 100 days and Mass Effect providing alien sex dream fodder for 1.6 million buyers since November. Not bad! It always makes me well up with joy to see these scrappy underdogs finally see get their due.

From Next-Gen (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8514&Itemid=2).

Microsoft has announced that the Xbox 360 has sold 17.7 million consoles worldwide—click through to see Halo 3 and Mass Effect’s staggering sales figures.
ImageMicrosoft announced Thursday that Bungie’s Halo 3, released September 25, 2007 in North America, has sold 8.1 million units worldwide.

BioWare’s RPG Mass Effect, released November 20, has sold an impressive 1.6 million units to date.

These titles helped drive a software attach rate of 6.9 games, according to November NPD data.

“Microsoft is proud of the contributions Xbox 360 is making to the gaming industry, and looks forward to an even more successful 2008,” the firm said in a statement.

Chainblast

01-03-2008, 09:14 PM

8.1 million copies of Halo 3 is sick, and that game will continue to burn. The original box was seen as the Halo box. People kept buying the game, it was THE game to have. I didn't like Halo, but damned if I didn't have it anyway. I'm sure the same mentality will continue for many with the 360, Halo 3 being the de facto standard.

I stand in awe of the Halo phenomenon.

No doubt. It must be at the Aperture Science level 'cause it flew right over my head 3 times. :|

DaXIthR

01-03-2008, 09:15 PM

DaX really likes the negative when it comes to microsoft...I really honestly see nothing wrong with their numbers at all....yep they should be worried they are on their way to 20 million people on their machine...yep.....that just sucks....oh and 8.1 million playing halo 3 thats just more bad news....1.6 millon for mass effect so far....thats horrible for an rpg!

Talon sellilng alot is good news in meaning you will get alot of games for what you own, thast why people care.

I'm not going to bash the software sales of the 360. Credit to MS on that.

You see nothing wrong with the numbers, have a coke. Selling fewer consoles in a calendar year many gamers are calling the best ever for the software is a cause for concern in my book. Especially compared to a calendar year many are calling the driest fricking dry spell ever...

You think I'm a troll, have a cookie. I think you're obtuse.

silv

01-03-2008, 09:15 PM

Still on my launch day console =/

Although the first person I know of finally got a RROD. He just took it back to best buy and got one with HDMI as a free upgrade, same day.

Ofcourse his XBLA games are all messed up, but MSFT is adjusting his console ID or whatever. 4 weeks to get that fixed.

Disgustipated

01-03-2008, 09:15 PM

So the 360 has sold 3x more than the PS3? Not surprising.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 09:16 PM

You know the biggest announcement that will effect anything at all is the 6.9 attach rate....if you are a 3rd party publisher those numbers would make you drool.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 09:17 PM

I'm not going to bash the software sales of the 360. Credit to MS on that.

You see nothing wrong with the numbers, have a coke. Selling fewer consoles in a calendar year many gamers are calling the best ever for the software is a cause for concern in my book. Especially compared to a calendar year many are calling the driest fricking dry spell ever...

You think I'm a troll, have a cookie. I think you're obtuse.

Hey I was just going by your post history...and good to ignore the fact that in 2006 it didn't have t he ps3 or wii as competition until the end of the year....

Johan

01-03-2008, 09:20 PM

Ofcourse his XBLA games are all messed up, but MSFT is adjusting his console ID or whatever. 4 weeks to get that fixed.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

*breathes deeply*

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

See the link in my sig. I've been waiting four months. Others have been waiting a year or longer. It's never gonna happen!

*breathes deeply*

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

51|RandoM

01-03-2008, 09:22 PM

Shipped, not sold, we know how valuable those figures are. After all, Microsoft still hasn't sold through their initial shipment of Xbox units in Japan. :) Crazy numbers for Halo 3.

oldjadedgamer

01-03-2008, 09:24 PM

I don't trust any companies own numbers. Only Media Create and NPD count.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 09:24 PM

Shipped, not sold, we know how valuable those figures are. After all, Microsoft still hasn't sold through their initial shipment of Xbox units in Japan. :) Crazy numbers for Halo 3.

CRUSADE!!!! heheh hey did you know that Halo 3 has sold more then the top 43 or so ps3 games in japan?

TrackZero

01-03-2008, 09:30 PM

I'm leaning towards 'sold' here meaning 'sold to retailers' or 'shipped', as is MS' method. 2006 was much better for MS than was 2007. If was a certain company headquartered in Redmond, WA, I'd be concerned by these figures...

Actually, that's Sonys game (shipped). MS kinds of floats back and forth between them.

silv

01-03-2008, 09:33 PM

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

*breathes deeply*

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

See the link in my sig. I've been waiting four months. Others have been waiting a year or longer. It's never gonna happen!

*breathes deeply*

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Dunno, that is what the Microsoft guy on the phone quoted him. I'll let you know if it gets fixed.

I really hope it does, as apparently Puzzle Quest has a bug in it, that it for some reason doesn't work except on the console it was originally downloaded on.

Johan

01-03-2008, 09:37 PM

Dunno, that is what the Microsoft guy on the phone quoted him. esn't work except on the console it was originally downloaded on.

You haven't read the link in my sig.

They've told me the same thing...twenty times or more. They've told EVERYONE THE SAME DAMN THING!

Hemalin

01-03-2008, 09:46 PM

You know the biggest announcement that will effect anything at all is the 6.9 attach rate....if you are a 3rd party publisher those numbers would make you drool.

Attach rate actually kinda means jack shit to a publisher. There are so many other numbers that are more important.

DarkDaY

01-03-2008, 09:51 PM

People don't like to buy stuff that they know will break randomly, during normal use (like, when powered on). Word gets around, and people can see the vultures circling over the corpses of consumers' consoles, waiting for their coffins.

I've seen people here claim the problem is fixed. The "problem" as in singular? Yeah...right.

apparently they do, man, you just can't get over your mistreatment. In the end its only hurting you.

I have an idea, buy a ps3 or a wii, and just let...it...go....
getting boring reading your 2 posts a thread about the same thing when you usually are one of my fav posters.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 09:53 PM

Attach rate actually kinda means jack shit to a publisher. There are so many other numbers that are more important.

Like what numbers? I'm really curious what is better then the amount of games sold with each system?

KingGorilla

01-03-2008, 09:56 PM

Like what numbers? I'm really curious what is better then the amount of games sold with each system?

The amount of their games sold on the system.

Talon-

01-03-2008, 09:56 PM

Talon sellilng alot is good news in meaning you will get alot of games for what you own, thast why people care.

Then trump up the positives of your system rather than going "Oh, look at your shitty console that's not selling!" It swings both ways. People take these numbers (and their chosen consoles) WAY too seriously.

There isn't going to be only one console with all the AAA titles. Some are exclusives for one. Some are exclusives for the other. Some are multi-platform. That's the way it's been. As long as your system isn't the Dreamcast, you have nothing to worry about as long as these systems keep on doing well between Europe (PS3) and the USA (360). Asia is a different matter entirely.

I'm not going to even mention the Wii because the number they're selling is sickening.

Johan

01-03-2008, 10:01 PM

apparently they do, man, you just can't get over your mistreatment. In the end its only hurting you.

It's not hurting me. I enjoy my 360, but I get as much enjoyment out of beating it to hell on the forum as well. It's a kick in the pants! Sorry if it bores you, but it entertains the heck out of me! :D

DarkDaY

01-03-2008, 10:10 PM

It's not hurting me. I enjoy my 360, but I get as much enjoyment out of beating it to hell on the forum as well. It's a kick in the pants! Sorry if it bores you, but it entertains the heck out of me! :D

alright alright, fair enough, and ya i get laughs out of seeing your name now a days knowing that its going to be a good dig on ms,
ok...a better way to put it would be, ..hmm

how about one post per thread bashing ms incompetence and one bashing someone else that posted in the thread, like the good old days.

And even a few bashing me on my grammar and spelling, though I wouldn't bother wasting your posts on me. Im not changing. And no one cares

mister_slim

01-03-2008, 10:12 PM

Actually, that's Sonys game (shipped). MS kinds of floats back and forth between them.

Actually, Sony switched to "sold to consumers" a while back. Hurt their numbers that quarter, but now MS is the only one who reports shipped.

Hemalin

01-03-2008, 10:20 PM

Like what numbers? I'm really curious what is better then the amount of games sold with each system?

How about actual number of units sold. Publishers weren't drooling over the PS2's 10 attach rate last gen, they were drooling over the systems 100 million units sold.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 10:25 PM

How about actual number of units sold. Publishers weren't drooling over the PS2's 10 attach rate last gen, they were drooling over the systems 100 million units sold.

Thats because......the ps2 did not have a 10 attach rate.

Hemalin

01-03-2008, 10:37 PM

Thats because......the ps2 did not have a 10 attach rate.

Doesn't matter, point is, attach rate isn't very important.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 10:39 PM

Doesn't matter, point is, attach rate isn't very important.

Hmm you qoute a wrong fact then say it doesn't matter you are right anyways? come on, that doesn't work.

Disgustipated

01-03-2008, 10:41 PM

Doesn't matter, point is, attach rate isn't very important.

Really, it isn't? The Wii has an attach rate of 2.3... and the Xbox has an almost 7.0 attach rate? You don't think that factors into dev's decisions?

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 10:44 PM

I would think attach rate show a developer that a systems users are buyng things alot after investing in a system, so if your games get on the system they have agood chance of selling. Makes sense to me...

Hemalin

01-03-2008, 10:47 PM

Really, it isn't? The Wii has an attach rate of 2.3... and the Xbox has an almost 7.0 attach rate? You don't think that factors into dev's decisions?

Only very slightly. Now, the fact that their last game sold more units on the 360 than it did on the Wii will have a larger impact.

Disgustipated

01-03-2008, 10:57 PM

Only very slightly. Now, the fact that their last game sold more units on the 360 than it did on the Wii will have a larger impact.

I'm sorry, but if the average user for system A is buying 7 games on average, and the average user for systeb B is buying just a couple, and their install bases are nearly equivalent...

Do you see the point I'm making?

Hemalin

01-03-2008, 11:07 PM

I'm sorry, but if the average user for system A is buying 7 games on average, and the average user for systeb B is buying just a couple, and their install bases are nearly equivalent...

Do you see the point I'm making?

Well if all things are equal, then yes. Too bad all things aren't equal. The consoles have different install bases, different profit margins, different genre preferences, different tech specs, etc. All of which is more important than attach rate.

Wolvie

01-03-2008, 11:09 PM

The world may never know in the same way the world will never know the number of replacement PS2s were purchased.

Oh zing! And I agree, the 360 seems about as reliable as the PS2 was when it was still in it's first couple of years. Hell I went through two of em, and my bro went through THREE before he finally got a stable PS2. I'm on my second 360, so lets see if this console generation for the 360 averages out with the PS2.

DaXIthR

01-03-2008, 11:16 PM

Hey I was just going by your post history...and good to ignore the fact that in 2006 it didn't have t he ps3 or wii as competition until the end of the year....

I don't understand it. Seriously, there's a bloody chorus every time someone suggests the 360 competes with the Wii. But it's convenient for the MS argument right you're attempting to construct, so we'll tolerate it.

As for the PS3, it was getting crushed every single month, until the second fire sales and the first real price drop. And even then it lagged behind even the PS2.

I've said it before, and I'm going to say it again. Feb to July 07 typify mediocre hardware sales for the 360. That's when MS shot themselves by not pushing the price drop everyone was anticipating. And there's no reason to believe 360s with a manufacture date of 2007 are magically reliable - they've just been used less because they are only six months old.

The absolute epitome of deluded fanboy is believing MS has solved its hardware flaws because a 360 you bought in September 2007 is working problem-free today.

Rune_74

01-03-2008, 11:18 PM

What on earth does hard ware flaws have to do with what I Posted...confused a bit here....

Wolvie

01-03-2008, 11:27 PM

The absolute epitome of deluded fanboy is believing MS has solved its hardware flaws because a 360 you bought in September 2007 is working problem-free today.

Dude I look at my replacement 360 every time it powers up and think "just how long do I have until you die too?" It sucks living in fear like that, but I put up with it because the damn piece of shit has the best damn library this generation. Just like the PS2 did, and it was a piece of shit too. Kinda odd how the worst hardware gets the best software huh?

KSmitty

01-03-2008, 11:52 PM

Dude I look at my replacement 360 every time it powers up and think "just how long do I have until you die too?" It sucks living in fear like that, but I put up with it because the damn piece of shit has the best damn library this generation. Just like the PS2 did, and it was a piece of shit too. Kinda odd how the worst hardware gets the best software huh?
I have been keeping up with gaming news, magazines and internet, consistently since the PSX days. Even then I do not remember the problems of the PSX or the PS2 being on the same scale as the 360. Sure I remember there being issues, but not like I hear from the 360. I won't go into mainstream media covering the problem, as gaming is much bigger business now than then, but even from gaming media I don't remember hearing about this high of a failure rate.

SPBTooL

01-03-2008, 11:55 PM

MS already had a large base so sales of the "oh look what's new" purchases are well on the down swing.
The 360 has competition that actually has games and/or stock to give people a reason to by the competition.
There are still allot of people w/o HDTVs that aren't buying till they get one. The Wii has an advantage there.
There are allot of people that are not buying till their PS2 dies.
We are in a minor recession.
With all this I would expect sales to be on the slow side. MS is beating Sony and they see that as very good sales. While the Wii sells more units I think the dollar amount between the two is about the same. Sony is still counting on those waiting to upgrade when their current PS2 dies.

Sloth

01-03-2008, 11:58 PM

considering all the bad press, and rightfully so, about the hardware issues of the 360, 2007 was a pretty good year. The machine is now as solid as they come, so it'll be interesting to see if MS can convince the public that the 360 hardware issues are behind it.

mister_slim

01-03-2008, 11:59 PM

Really, it isn't? The Wii has an attach rate of 2.3... and the Xbox has an almost 7.0 attach rate? You don't think that factors into dev's decisions?

Where are you getting that Wii attach rate from?

sticky

01-04-2008, 12:02 AM

Fonz

01-04-2008, 12:04 AM

Chameleo

01-04-2008, 12:33 AM

Really, it isn't? The Wii has an attach rate of 2.3... and the Xbox has an almost 7.0 attach rate? You don't think that factors into dev's decisions?

im sorry to break it to you but the wii's attach rate is close to double that.

when you realise that and objectively see that the xbox only has a 3-game edge on the wii in attach rate - and has been out for double the time and has "better" (according to metacritic) games - the xbox attach rate starts to lose some of its "wow" factor.

Wolvie

01-04-2008, 12:37 AM

I won't go into mainstream media covering the problem, as gaming is much bigger business now than then, but even from gaming media I don't remember hearing about this high of a failure rate.

Well like I said, I went through two PS2's and my bro is now on his fourth! Now I'm not sure if the PS2 failure rate was as bad as the 360's is... and it probably isn't. But for me personally the PS2 was a little worse reliable then the 360 is. Of course my current 360 could die any day and I'd have to eat my words. I guess we'll see.

Vandenh

01-04-2008, 12:46 AM

I have a launch day 360. It has not broken, I use it all the time. It is almost always on downloading something or other. Am I the only person the planet with a 360 that is working as it should?

Nope.. mine is up and running smoothly.

BTW I never had *any* console break on me (since the Genesis). Well ok.. I fried my first DC, but that was my mistake :) So I always read these "break" messages with a little apprehension. I can't shake off the feeling that a lot of those messages are in fact fake... for all consoles.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 12:53 AM

Pretty impressive numbers by MS. Im still a little surprised people are trying to compare the 200,000 PS2 failures to the 40% failure rate of 17 million 360s. But hey to each their own truth right? Oh and Rune_74 aka Random_74 don't you have to go get banned from some playstation forum? Just saying you bringing up peoples post history, yours is the most colorful, Im sure your smiling ear to ear with your Microsoft Wallbangers on your walls ;p.

hehehe you are bringing that up eh? Banned for posting a rumor about mgs4 maybe going to the 360....yep good reasoning. Of course fail to mention it was in a 360 section of said forums, or why....but hey spin it if it works for you good luck with that. *edited out due to calming down after thinking about it* Funny thing was this forum had a good 360 section imagine that eh? However mods were ban happy when things started goin bad for the ps3 and didn't like certain topics brought up....it was a legit news story no worse then the one that was posted on here...anyways gettin tired of explainin that. hehehe oh and btw I also own a wii do I have nintendo wallbangers too(what are those btw??)

Twigz'N'Berries

01-04-2008, 01:09 AM

I have a launch day 360. It has not broken, I use it all the time. It is almost always on downloading something or other. Am I the only person the planet with a 360 that is working as it should?

Too much whining about those that have broken, those with working consoles are too busy playing them to sit here and bitch.
Well, being on my 4th f-ing 360 I have a bit to 'bitch' about. If I had a reliable f-ing console, I'd be playing instead of bitching too.

(Well, I actually have my latest replacement back, but I'm still bitching)

sticky

01-04-2008, 01:12 AM

Well, being on my 4th f-ing 360 I have a bit to 'bitch' about. If I had a reliable f-ing console, I'd be playing instead of bitching too.

(Well, I actually have my latest replacement back, but I'm still bitching)

If I was on my fourth naturally I would be pissed.

The thing is, everyone forgets about those who have consoles that are working perfectly and enjoying the product. The negatives always take precedence as the pissed off scream the loudest.

DaXIthR

01-04-2008, 01:13 AM

Really, it isn't? The Wii has an attach rate of 2.3...

2.3? Unless you went number dyslexic for a minute, I'd love to see a source.

2.3?! I have a better attach rate than that...

DaXIthR

01-04-2008, 01:17 AM

What on earth does hard ware flaws have to do with what I Posted...confused a bit here....

Figured it was fair game considering you started waving software sales in my face...fantastic job ignoring everything else in my post, though...Kudos.

Chameleo

01-04-2008, 01:29 AM

If I was on my fourth naturally I would be pissed.

The thing is, everyone forgets about those who have consoles that are working perfectly and enjoying the product. The negatives always take precedence as the pissed off scream the loudest.

for every xbox owner who has only had one console, there is at *least* one xbox owner who has gone through two or more.

Chameleo

01-04-2008, 01:31 AM

and in response to the OP: whats all this hooting by MS over their sales? first of all, they MENTION nintendo - thats just asking for trouble. second of all, they cite nintendo's PROJECTED sales - not actual sales - again asking for trouble.

then they call themselves "HANDS DOWN" leaders..... with (by their own numbers) a measly 200,000 console lead.

can't wait till I see official numbers.

bapenguin

01-04-2008, 04:28 AM

I don't trust any companies own numbers. Only Media Create and NPD count.

Don't trust press releases. Don't trust NPD.

But you can trust financial reports from the company. Of course, most times that is going to show sold to stores anyway, because that's where the company gets their money from. The fact of the matter is no company has 100% visibility into ever store's sell through. No company actually knows how many systems they've sold.

grognard66

01-04-2008, 04:57 AM

I see this as a mixed bag. 360 sales year-to-year seem to have peaked already which is not necessarily very good. However, when you compare it to PS3 sales it is still the market leader (I view Wii like DS/PSP, as not being part of the same conversation -different market segment). However, most consoles realize the vast majority of their hardware sales after several years and getting below the magic $199 price, so I think it's fair to say that 360 will "win" this generation.

The Nintendophiles posting previously might want to check out objective, reputable news sites like Next-Gen for confirmation that Wii has shockingly low software attach rates (per NPD and even Nintendo's news releases). It really is more like a toy that new gamers are buying and simply playing Wii sports on and nothing else, as opposed to a traditional console you buy as an investment and gradually build up a game library for. Just because some of us (I've bought over 15 Wii titles myself) have bought more doesn't mean the general populace is doing the same thing.

Deadend

01-04-2008, 05:00 AM

6.9 attach rate is great for 3rd parties. It means that more than just 1st party games are bought, or just games in the Top 5 get sold. The 360 has a much more diverse list of what games people spend money on, compared to the other 2 consoles, where only a very select few games sell respectably.

Of course, almost every game by a company that is not incompetent(Konami/Square) is going to the 360 anyway because the devkits are easy, middleware porting is easy, online is easy. And a 6.9 attach rate means someone may even buy your game.

Goronmon

01-04-2008, 06:00 AM

Too much whining about those that have broken, those with working consoles are too busy playing them to sit here and bitch.I thought we were well past people believing this shit. I love my (2nd) 360, but you are either ignorant or just plain naive if you don't think the failure rate is extremely high. There's not much else to it.

TrackZero

01-04-2008, 06:03 AM

I thought we were well past people believing this shit. I love my (2nd) 360, but you are either ignorant or just plain naive if you don't think the failure rate is extremely high. There's not much else to it.

True, but I don't think that's what he was saying. And I'm in his vote, my system works fine, always has.

Goronmon

01-04-2008, 06:04 AM

I don't understand it. Seriously, there's a bloody chorus every time someone suggests the 360 competes with the Wii. But it's convenient for the MS argument right you're attempting to construct, so we'll tolerate it.His comment was focused on the fact that the 360 was the only "next-gen" system actually on sale for most of 2006. Though I guess I'm not surprised you chose to flame him immediately for your own lack of reading comprehension. You seem to be trolling every single one of these threads for the main purpose of labeling anyone who disagrees with you as an obsessed fanboy. I get it, you don't like the focus of the 360 on this site. Get over it.

Goronmon

01-04-2008, 06:06 AM

True, but I don't think that's what he was saying. And I'm in his vote, my system works fine, always has.Unless there was some hidden meaning I'm not seeing, it can only be read as "Quit bitching, my system is working fine."

bKangy

01-04-2008, 06:22 AM

My May 2006 machine is sort of holding together. The DVD drive is noticably getting bad but it doesn't feel like it's getting too warm or anything. It just seems like the drive is falling apart.

Still, 17.7m isn't bad for MS at all. It's not great and when you consider that the original sold, lifetime 25mill-ish and they've yet to introduce big price cuts... then everything is going well. Plus, the PS3 is dying out there in comparison.

Cubfan

01-04-2008, 06:30 AM

I have a launch day 360. It has not broken, I use it all the time. It is almost always on downloading something or other. Am I the only person the planet with a 360 that is working as it should?

Too much whining about those that have broken, those with working consoles are too busy playing them to sit here and bitch.

Same here- bought it within a month of launch... have never had any problems whatsoever. Though if if I did, you can bet I'd be bitching and moaning about it along with everyone else.

Kamalot

01-04-2008, 06:41 AM

Really, it isn't? The Wii has an attach rate of 2.3... and the Xbox has an almost 7.0 attach rate? You don't think that factors into dev's decisions?
I don't know where you get your attachment rate numbers, but the most recent I can find are from October 2007 (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/10/31/360-leads-hardware-to-software-ratio-wii-and-ps3-trail-with-sim/)

Hardware to software ratio:
* Xbox 360 6.59
* PlayStation 3: 3.58
* Wii: 3.44

ECM

01-04-2008, 06:47 AM

I don't know where you get your attachment rate numbers, but the most recent I can find are from October 2007 (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/10/31/360-leads-hardware-to-software-ratio-wii-and-ps3-trail-with-sim/)

Hardware to software ratio:
* Xbox 360 6.59
* PlayStation 3: 3.58
* Wii: 3.44

I wonder how those numbers hold up when you take worldwide sales into account. If I wasn't feeling inordinately lazy, I'd even go do some rough math :D

As for MS claiming "we're number one!", the ghost of September articles says:

Nintendo’s Wii takes console lead
(http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/51df0c84-6154-11dc-bf25-0000779fd2ac.html)(the Financial Times, hardly a fanboy-ish outlet)

Since Nintendo has vastly out-sold MS everywhere since this story except in, I believe, October, I think MS is on very thin ice with this claim (these are rough sell-through numbers compiled from all the reputable tracking services in each territory.)

Telefrog

01-04-2008, 06:57 AM

DangerousDaze

01-04-2008, 06:59 AM

I congratulate MSFT on their achievement. Seriously. 17.7M sales tells its own story.

Gorvi

01-04-2008, 06:59 AM

Still, the Wii's 3.44 attach rate compared to the 360's 6.59 is not good at all.
Not to sound like a Wii hater (I love mine), but that attatch rate looks worse when you consider that it includes Wii Play.

Vermy81

01-04-2008, 07:02 AM

Wha? They couldnt sell because there were too many to sell?

Or do you mean too many of the pre-HDMI systems?

They report their numbers by the industry standard of sell-through to retailers. That's fine that's the bussiness they're in--selling product to a retailer who sells it to the customer. If retailers have a bunch of excess stock they're not going to be ordering new systems.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 07:15 AM

Not to sound like a Wii hater (I love mine), but that attatch rate looks worse when you consider that it includes Wii Play.

I still think that if you drilled down to the hardcore Wii market, the attach rate wouldn't look much different than that of 360. But the applied attach rate to the much bigger Wii market still means that individual games can sell better on Wii despite selling to a smaller percentage of the overall market. Quite simply, the Wii market is not unified.

ECM

01-04-2008, 07:24 AM

Still, the Wii's 3.44 attach rate compared to the 360's 6.59 is not good at all.

Depends on your POV:

High attach rate is nothing but good news? (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11796)

An excerpt:

While traditionally a growth in attach rate is considered to be a positive, the report suggests that such an increase could mean that even though Xbox 360 software continues to enjoy brisk sales, the hardware itself has not seen similar increases in consumer demand. In fact, it concludes: “We believe the unusually high attach rate on the 360 is a sign of an increasingly unhealthy console growth rate, and should be worrisome to publishers and investors.”

This is from late November of '06 and, if you agree (or at least acknowledge they might have a point) the 360's attach rate has gone *up* in the past year despite an increase in the size of the userbase.

And before anyone starts screaming, please read the full article...

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 07:29 AM

This is from late November of '06 and, if you agree (or at least acknowledge they might have a point) the 360's attach rate has gone *up* in the past year despite an increase in the size of the userbase.

And before anyone starts screaming, please read the full article...

I'd also wager that many 360 libraries look eerily similar. Of those 6.5 games, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 of the same titles were shared by every 360 owner. The higher attach rate != greater third party sales. Instead, all those sales may be concentrated on just a few AAA titles.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 07:36 AM

Notsure I agree that all software libraries are the same....when you have how many million game sellers? that just doesn't work out in math you know?

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 07:39 AM

Notsure I agree that all software libraries are the same....when you have how many million game sellers? that just doesn't work out in math you know?

Can you link to a list?

silv

01-04-2008, 07:42 AM

I'd also wager that many 360 libraries look eerily similar. Of those 6.5 games, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 of the same titles were shared by every 360 owner. The higher attach rate != greater third party sales. Instead, all those sales may be concentrated on just a few AAA titles.

Don't think this is true. If you look at sales numbers, with 10 titles selling over 2 million and 30 over 1 million, there is some variation there.

silv

01-04-2008, 07:42 AM

http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=&console=X360&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Sales

Schnoogs

01-04-2008, 07:42 AM

Why am I getting deja vu? I know that I am not the only one who has seen stores with enough unsold Xbox 360's to build an igloo with a 2 sled garage.

That's it? Most of the stores around here have enough PS3's to build an Olympic center for 2016, a Deathstar and housing for every man, woman and child in China.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 07:45 AM

Don't think this is true. If you look at sales numbers, with 10 titles selling over 2 million and 30 over 1 million, there is some variation there.

Again, can you provide me with a link somewhere? I'm curious to know which titles.

EDIT

http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?...d=&order=Sales

Oops, a little slow on the refresh. Thanks for the link.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 07:46 AM

The guys here beat me to a list do you still want another?;)

Tennistoad

01-04-2008, 07:47 AM

who care's they won't be able to use them online.. right now people are still having loads of problems on live.. And Major(pr pusher)Nelson Says it's all fixed. Ah brilliant! Create a console that can only play online with a paid for service, and then not have any way to keep the online play going when your barraged by users. Typical corporate crap.

Major Nelson at last technical budget meeting. "Ah Let's see we have the possibility of 10mil+ users this holiday season so let's make sure that the system can handle at least a max of 50% of those because not everyone uses the service at the same time... And if they do it's only for a couple of weeks till they go back to school or work. so who cares.. Get back to counting Money"

Schnoogs

01-04-2008, 07:47 AM

Don't think this is true. If you look at sales numbers, with 10 titles selling over 2 million and 30 over 1 million, there is some variation there.

pwnage +100

ECM

01-04-2008, 07:47 AM

http://vgchartz.com/games/index.php?name=&console=X360&publisher=&genre=&keyword=&order=Sales

*waits for the anti-VG Chartz crush*

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 07:53 AM

pwnage +100

(VGChartz) Million-Seller Breakdown:

360 - 30 titles (Why are so many of these still $60?)
Wii - 15 titles (Wii Fit nearly there)
PS3 - 5 titles (FIFA 08 nearly there)

Guess my critique can be leveled against PS3...

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 07:54 AM

Yeah I'm not a big fan of VGchartz but I could not find another list out there...anyone else?

Jack B

01-04-2008, 07:55 AM

If was a certain company headquartered in Redmond, WA, I'd be concerned by these figures...

There wasn't any next gen competition in 2006. In 2007 there was.... Big big difference.

If this were a football game the 360 would have been a 17 underdog to the PS3 in 2007. Instead they win the game in 2007 against the PS3 by 14 points. That's a big win.

If the market was down, They should be worried, but it's not. The console market is up and they're beating their arch rival in the high end console space every single month. Month in and month out they extend their unit share lead and sell more software as well.

That's a reason for a celebration. I'd re-evaluate your analysis.

Gorvi

01-04-2008, 07:57 AM

Yeah I'm not a big fan of VGchartz but I could not find another list out there...anyone else?
There really isn't any other source out there, unfortuanately. I'd say they're probably pretty accurate when you're talking about the lifetime sales of a console or specific game, but I wouldn't put any weight in their weekly or monthly sales predictions.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 07:58 AM

trip1eX

01-04-2008, 07:58 AM

Yeah the denominator in the attach rate is hardware sales. IF the rate of hardware sales starts decreasing and yet software sales remain constant then you're going to get a higher attach rate.

A high attach rate could definitely be a sign your console isn't selling outside of the hardcore userbase or outside of a another particular market.

Contrast that with the Wii which we do know continues to sell extremely well. If its hardware sales actually are increasing while software sales remain fairly constant then you're going to see the attach rate decrease.

What we do know is the 360 appeals to the hardcore. It got a year head start and MS seems to have done a great job attracting 3rd party developers to the platform. They seem to have given money for at least 1 big exclusive. They have made the platform easy to develop for and the 360 shares the same APIs with the pc which can really only help developers make more cash on another platform. We also know the 360 is the number platform here in the US still.

But, at the same time, the 360 hasn't really taken off despite the hardcore singing its praises. We also probably know a few reasons for that. The hardware is crap would have to be a big reason. The failure rate is astounding. There's also a lack of buzz for games outside the fps genre. And Xbox Live doesn't have much appeal outside the hardcore not mention it costs consumers the equivalent of a game per year.

Also competition has kept it in check. The Wii has become the number platform worldwide and seems to have diverted the more mainstream gamers away from the 360 with a nice price, all inclusive, new way to play package. And the PS3 surely has directly stolen a few 360 customers even though the 360 has kept the PS3 at bay particularly here in the US.

In the end the 360 remains a strong yet questionable platform.

Gorvi

01-04-2008, 08:01 AM

Even if they're off by 5-10%, it still gives us a general idea of where things stand.
Yep, pretty much. If anyone else knows of a compiled, searchable database out there that's better and more accurate than VGChartz, I'd love to see it. Not that I'm saying we should take what they have as gospel, but it's the best jumping off point out there.

Johan

01-04-2008, 08:17 AM

...it's the best jumping off point out there.

http://www.vsocan.org/imgup/cliff_jumping_cropped.jpg

Sharks!

Rocks!

Fanboys below!

Gorvi

01-04-2008, 08:20 AM

http://www.vsocan.org/imgup/cliff_jumping_cropped.jpg

Sharks!

Rocks!

Fanboys below!
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f194/UndeadFaith/OH_NOES.jpg

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 08:22 AM

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f194/UndeadFaith/OH_NOES.jpg

http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PSS/PSSIAS049-XL_500.jpeg

Gorvi

01-04-2008, 08:27 AM

http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PSS/PSSIAS049-XL_500.jpeg
http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/captainn.jpg

kickmybum

01-04-2008, 08:37 AM

I thought the sales would be better in 2007, since Halo 3 dropped and the kinks were worked out of the system.

I was surprised by this because I actually got $400 for Xmas to buy an Xbox 360 with and after going to 2 Wal-Mart Superstores and a Target and finding them sold out, I finally hunted one down at BestBuy.

Based on that experience, I thought Xbox pwned this holiday season, but I guess not.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 08:40 AM

I'm still not seeing how they had bad sales here....

ECM

01-04-2008, 08:59 AM

I'm still not seeing how they had bad sales here....

They sold less consoles in their second year than first by a substantial margin despite:

1. The release of Halo 3 (amongst several other highly-anticipated titles.)

2. Lower hardware costs.

3. No supply constraints (as they faced during the first 4-5 months of their first year.)

I don't have time to verify this right now, but I believe this gives the 360 the dubious distinction of being the first 'succesful' console in a very long time to sell fewer units in its second year than first (regardless of the amount of competition.)

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 09:02 AM

um competition this year and none the year before.....I think they had good numbers considering the othe two were out wouldn't you ??

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 09:03 AM

Anyone know what effect the $1 billion warranty write off had on the bottom line? Is 360 still in red?

ECM

01-04-2008, 09:17 AM

um competition this year and none the year before.....I think they had good numbers considering the othe two were out wouldn't you ??

No. That's why I placed "regardless of competition" at the end--the PS2 outsold its first year by wide margins despite competition from the Cube and Xbox.

MS had virtually everything going their way: lower price, huge library, hot games and none of the supply issues that stymied them during their first year, plus Nintendo and Sony made it easy for them in '07 (the former with huge supply issues and the latter because they pretty much rolled over and died.) Given these factors (when facing a ~20% drop from first year unit sales) that's certainly cause for concern and is, unequivocally, not a cause for celebration.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 09:22 AM

No. That's why I placed "regardless of competition" at the end--the PS2 outsold its first year by wide margins despite competition from the Cube and Xbox.

MS had virtually everything going their way: lower price, huge library, hot games and none of the supply issues that stymied them during their first year, plus Nintendo and Sony made it easy for them in '07 (the former with huge supply issues and the latter because they pretty much rolled over and died.) Given these factors (when facing a ~20% drop from first year unit sales) that's certainly cause for concern and is, unequivocally, not a cause for celebration.

Here's an interesting question: are downloadable titles being included in this software-to-hardware ratio? Checking out Metacritic shows that there are a lot of XBLA being included, some PSN titles and no VC titles for Wii. Are these numbers skewed by DL titles?

trip1eX

01-04-2008, 09:28 AM

Anyone know what effect the $1 billion warranty write off had on the bottom line? Is 360 still in red?

The 360 is $6 bil in the red if you include the Xbox. It's got a long ways to go. Maybe after next generation it will finally break even.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 09:29 AM

Oh come on....with competition you will have less sales....there is no way around that....ps2 really had no competition until the xbox came out and I believe it was 1.5 to 2 years after the ps2 came out and the ps2 was riding teh dvd craze which is not the case this time (sorry blue ray). You have to take that into account.

trip1eX

01-04-2008, 09:29 AM

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 09:29 AM

The 360 is $6 bil in the red if you include the Xbox. It's got a long ways to go. Maybe after next generation it will finally break even.

That's....depressing. It really lends validity to the claim that MS got into the market simply to fuck over Sony and their computer division.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 09:36 AM

heheh kalaquinn what on earth are you going on about?

KingGorilla

01-04-2008, 09:38 AM

That's....depressing. It really lends validity to the claim that MS got into the market simply to fuck over Sony and their computer division.

They got into that market for the same reason they got into mice and keyboards in the late 80's. Their stock is stagnant, and will only go down unless they can expand. The games and MP3 players are about as serious efforts as their online stores or ad software. They are about to lose a lot on embeded media players, because it looks like everyone is headed to flash. They have lost a lot on Linux, servers mostly, as well.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 09:39 AM

heheh kalaquinn what on earth are you going on about?

Just trying to be optimistic about the monopoly... :rolleyes:

bapenguin

01-04-2008, 09:48 AM

That's....depressing. It really lends validity to the claim that MS got into the market simply to fuck over Sony and their computer division.

Except that's not entirely true. The Xbox 360 is not in a division on it's own, it's lumped with products like the Zune, Media Center extenders, gaming peripherals, etc.

The 360 hardware right now is very close to a break even point on sales.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 09:53 AM

Except that's not entirely true. The Xbox 360 is not in a division on it's own, it's lumped with products like the Zune, Media Center extenders, gaming peripherals, etc.

The 360 hardware right now is very close to a break even point on sales.

So they're no longer in red on the bottom line? Even with the write-off?

netcraazzy

01-04-2008, 09:56 AM

That's....depressing. It really lends validity to the claim that MS got into the market simply to fuck over Sony and their computer division.

I've heard people cite this theory before but I'm not familiar with the concepts behind it. How does the 360 hurt Sony's PC sales?

ECM

01-04-2008, 10:08 AM

Oh come on....with competition you will have less sales....there is no way around that

By this logic, no product should ever sell more, year over year, if it has any competition. Since products do this all the time (with and without competition), I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

....ps2 really had no competition until the xbox came out and I believe it was 1.5 to 2 years after the ps2 came out

The Xbox and Cube came out about one year after the PS2 launched in NA, with a lower and higher priced competitor (the Cube 100 under and the Xbox 100 over--and the latter with the ability to playback DVDs, to boot, albeit w/ a $20 dongle.) Sort of like the 360 is competing against a lower and higher priced competitor with differing specs.

...and the ps2 was riding teh dvd craze which is not the case this time (sorry blue ray). You have to take that into account.

I won't discount that, to some degree, the PS2 capitalized on DVD's high tide, but it also didn't have a price cut (it was $300 for at least its first two holiday seasons), didn't have supply-constrained competition (Nintendo), didn't have adversaries that couldn't market their way out of a paper bag (Sony), and didn't have nearly as good a software library (Microsoft) and yet they still sold much, much better in their second year.

Not only did MS go into year two on its own perceived strengths (one year headstart, lots of developer support, very good hardware sales) and mixed in some price cuts, SKU variety, and brought out the mother of all games, but its competition did everyting it could to help them (short of pulling out of the market), and they still sold 20% fewer units.

Look, we're not talking about a small drop or staying at parity with year one--this is a substantial drop, period, and I fail to see how this can be spun as anything other than a Maalox moment for the folks up in Redmond. They have to be very concerned that in a year that was, essentially, a 'perfect storm' for them, that they really couldn't capitalize on it (note: MS has revised down their hardware forecasts several times, so clearly this isn't where MS expected/hoped to be 12 months ago.)

How about this: you explain to me how selling 20% less units, year over year, is good in light of the fact that they're going into what looks like a much harder '08 when you're still struggling to make money as it is?

I've heard people cite this theory before but I'm not familiar with the concepts behind it. How does the 360 hurt Sony's PC sales?

The idea, originally, was that Sony was going to attempt to 'conquer the living room' with the PS2, thus pushing MS' OS offerings out into the cold (I'm sure you know this, but the idea of the do-it-all living room appliance is the Holy Grail of consumer electronics and MS had their eye on that particularly pie--or at least the software that would drive it.)

Sony had planned, originally, to do a lot of what MS is actually doing with Live on the 360: downloadable content, online community, media player, and lots, lots more (basically replacing the PC as we know it) and this worried MS as PC sales were slowing and they didn't want to risk losing the 'living room' (read: the whole enchilada) to Sony. Thus the Xbox was born as a spike strip (think high speed chase) to slow Sony down if not cause them to do pirouettes of car-destroying aerobatics. Allegedly losses were unimportant as MS has enough cash to fight a war of attrition for the next century without feeling much pain.

But to directly answer your question: it really didn't have much to do with Sony PCs, per se.

sleepbox

01-04-2008, 10:17 AM

Ya, I went through 3 PS2s and sold my 4th 1 still in box. Never had any issues w/ my 360 or original Xbox.

Goronmon

01-04-2008, 10:18 AM

How about this: you explain to me how selling 20% less units, year over year, is good in light of the fact that they're going into what looks like a much harder '08?The difference in "sales" could possibly be traced back to the fact that MS considers units shipped as "sold" for these numbers. In 2006, they very well may have flooded the supply chains with hardware, perhaps well past the actual demand. Going in to 2007, there are so many units already available that they have to cut back on numbers shipped going forward through the year because retailers just don't need them.

So, you end up with lower "sales" despite the fact that they may have actually sold the same number of units to consumers. Problem is, this is all conjecture and we can't know for sure.

Jack B

01-04-2008, 10:24 AM

How about this: you explain to me how selling 20% less units, year over year, is good in light of the fact that they're going into what looks like a much harder '08?

It could have been better, but marketshare growth vs the juggernaut that was Sony for the 1st year with Sony in the next gen market was nothing short of spectacular. Microsoft killed it in some areas and dropped the ball in others, but Microsoft execs wouldn't trade their 2007 for Sony's? Would you?

Last gen worldwide sales

Sony 120 million units
Microsoft 25 million units

2007 worldwide sales

Sony 7.5 million units (rough figures from VGChartz)
Microsoft 8 million units

Sony won the previous generations like the Patriots won this year's regular season. The 360 was a heavy underdog going into this generation as was in 2007 as well. They actually sold more units than the PS3 Worldwide in 2007. Beating the Patriots is a lot different than beating the Dolphins.

Sony even predicted last Spring they'd "win by March '08". The market is growing and Microsoft hasn't been run over by the Patriots yet.

ECM

01-04-2008, 10:32 AM

So, you end up with lower "sales" despite the fact that they may have actually sold the same number of units to consumers. Problem is, this is all conjecture and we can't know for sure.

You have a point, but I doubt the discrepancy is on the order of 20% (unless all the criticisms leveled at MS for stuffing the channel are valid.)

netcraazzy

01-04-2008, 10:42 AM

The idea, originally, was that Sony was going to attempt to 'conquer the living room' with the PS2, thus pushing MS' OS offerings out into the cold (I'm sure you know this, but the idea of the do-it-all living room appliance is the Holy Grail of consumer electronics and MS had their eye on that particularly pie--or at least the software that would drive it.)

Sony had planned, originally, to do a lot of what MS is actually doing with Live on the 360: downloadable content, online community, media player, and lots, lots more (basically replacing the PC as we know it) and this worried MS as PC sales were slowing and they didn't want to risk losing the 'living room' (read: the whole enchilada) to Sony. Thus the Xbox was born as a spike strip (think high speed chase) to slow Sony down if not cause them to do pirouettes of car-destroying aerobatics. Allegedly losses were unimportant as MS has enough cash to fight a war of attrition for the next century without feeling much pain.

But to directly answer your question: it really didn't have much to do with Sony PCs, per se.

What you say makes some sense but I see some major points of contention. For instance, if all MS wanted was for their software to dominate the realm of the livingroom then why isn't the xbox or 360 running a version of windows with a GUI and functionality similar to the PC. You would think we'd have MS Office for Xbox and web browsing functionality using Internet Explorer. We have Windows Mobile for cell phones, why not Windows Gaming Edition for consoles? Instead we have a highly optomized windows kernal but nothing from that user's perspective that shows they are getting that "Microsoft Windows" experience.

I think KingGorilla has the better theory. MS was looking to expand in a new direction in order to add aditional percieved value for their shareholders. The console industry was a very visable, rapidly expanding sector and there was money to be made. I think the fact that they could use the console to move a few more units of Windows through their media center editions was just icing on the cake.

Trazzlo the Magnificant

01-04-2008, 10:44 AM

There really isn't any other source out there, unfortuanately. I'd say they're probably pretty accurate when you're talking about the lifetime sales of a console or specific game, but I wouldn't put any weight in their weekly or monthly sales predictions.I think you hit the issue exactly. People give vgcharts a hard time because their predictions can be wildly off compared to the NDP numbers. Then they go back and correct them.

From that people assume that all numbers are bad, which I don't think is reasonable. I think its a reasonable database of historical information but a poor source for predictions. Plus, many of their worst issues with predictions stem from their early days.

Trazzlo the Magnificant

01-04-2008, 10:50 AM

Here's an interesting question: are downloadable titles being included in this software-to-hardware ratio? Checking out Metacritic shows that there are a lot of XBLA being included, some PSN titles and no VC titles for Wii. Are these numbers skewed by DL titles?All of the software to hardware ratios I have seen were based on NDP numbers, which don't include any Live sales whatsoever, since NDP is based on retail sales. Live isn't included in retail sales.

The only thing they might consider is showing how many retail points are sold, but I haven't seen that. Plus, it would only be a fraction for the total points sold, since you can buy them without going through retail.

And, even if MS was stacking those numbers with Live arcade sales, it would be pathetically simple to figure that out based on monthly NDP numbers.

And, those arcade games do have value. They do generate money for developers, and the Live system has a ton of content. Why shouldn't it be part of the equation? What we talk about is how they might be stacking the numbers, compared to not including a completely valid source of revenue for developers.

So, no the quoted software ratios don't include Live software sales. And, that makes the number lower than they should be.

Baron Samedi

01-04-2008, 10:59 AM

I think KingGorilla has the better theory. MS was looking to expand in a new direction in order to add aditional percieved value for their shareholders. The console industry was a very visable, rapidly expanding sector and there was money to be made. I think the fact that they could use the console to move a few more units of Windows through their media center editions was just icing on the cake.

I think's a double-edged sword. MS is expanding, but they are expanding into markets with both lucrative futures and that have competitor's towards their computer division. Might as well kill two birds with one stone, but marking money and throwing the other guys for a loop.

Bap, do you have any links for the current MS bottom line?

ECM

01-04-2008, 11:00 AM

It could have been better, but marketshare growth vs the juggernaut that was Sony for the 1st year with Sony in the next gen market was nothing short of spectacular.

Yes, versus Sony it was terrific. The problem is, Sony isn't the juggernaut: Nintendo is.

Microsoft killed it in some areas and dropped the ball in others, but Microsoft execs wouldn't trade their 2007 for Sony's? Would you?

I'm not sure what this question has to do with my contention that MS had a disappointing year, but I think the answer is obvious (the PS3 was neutralized as a threat, at least as far as '07 goes, by the end of January '07, in NA.)

Last gen worldwide sales

Sony 120 million units
Microsoft 25 million units

2007 worldwide sales

Sony 7.5 million units (rough figures from VGChartz)
Microsoft 8 million units

Looks like a pretty good year to me. The numbers could be off, but they are no where near the 120m to 25m beating the Xbox took last gen from Sony. The PS3 was to be a much more formidable competitor than the Gamecube, Xbox or the Dreamcast was to the PSOne/PS2. This is Sony we're talking about. The juggernaut.

Again, I'm not going to argue that if the battle is confined solely to Sony versus MS, MS comes out smellling like a rose. But my contention isn't that MS drubbed Sony (they did) but that MS has had a rather precipitous drop going into '08 where things are looking much harder for them (Sony taking over in Europe; MS never getting traction in Japan; Wii toppling all comers.)

In light of this, I don't think it's anything to be excited about given, again, all the pluses in MS' column at the onset of '07. After all, if they can't have a break out year with those conditions, it's looking pretty bleak that they'll be able to do little than watch their market share slide more in '08.

Sony won the previous generations like the Patriots won this year's regular season. The 360 was a heavy underdog going into this generation and even in 2007. They actually sold more units than the PS3 Worldwide in 2007. Beating the Patriots is a lot different than beating the Dolphins.

Yes, again, they out-sold the PS3 but the problem is you still have the Wii out there which is the 800 lb. gorilla right now (while dealing with a Sony that won't be quite so easy to laugh off in '08.)

The PS3 was expected to not only chip away every month at the 360's lead, but Sony projected a "win" by March of 2008 even as late as Spring of 2007. Their predictions prior to 2007 were probably higher than that...

Listen, I understand what you're trying to get at. My argument is that they didn't have a good enough year when faced with the prospects of a rather stormy '08--they needed a far larger beachead than the one they captured to keep moving forward.

I also feel it is nothing to celebrate when you look at how the PS3 performed in Europe in '07 (launching only in March and just having its first holiday now) and how MS, once again, didn't perform in Japan (and, oh yeah: the Wii.)

Factor in that they aren't making any money on this project (one billion dollar write-offs, for example) and, basically, they get the consolation prize of giving Sony a fat lip. The problem is, a fat lip isn't going to kill Sony and it certainly isn't going to have an effect on Nintendo.

What you say makes some sense but I see some major points of contention. For instance, if all MS wanted was for their software to dominate the realm of the livingroom then why isn't the xbox or 360 running a version of windows with a GUI and functionality similar to the PC. You would think we'd have MS Office for Xbox and web browsing functionality using Internet Explorer. We have Windows Mobile for cell phones, why not Windows Gaming Edition for consoles? Instead we have a highly optomized windows kernal but nothing from that user's perspective that shows they are getting that "Microsoft Windows" experience.

The Xbox was designed to slow Sony down on its March: not be the de facto set top box that performed all of the above funtions (i.e. the Holy Grail.)

Ultimately, the plan would be a do-it-all machine--a generation or two or three down the line--but the threat of the PS2 dominating the living room in the fashion originally envisioned didn't happen (it was a game console, plain and simple, and didn't deliver 10% of what Sony was crowing about.)

In light of that, expectations of both Sony and MS were vastly scaled back to the point where the 360 and PS3 are only just now beginning to deliver the promise originally made by the PS2.

And on that note, I bid you all adieu--I've spent way more time on this thread than I should have :(

silv

01-04-2008, 11:24 AM

Johan

01-04-2008, 11:28 AM

http://www.vgchartz.com/news/news.php?id=737

That is extremely interesting. Thank you for posting that link.

CaptStu

01-04-2008, 11:34 AM

That is extremely interesting. Thank you for posting that link.

I think the provided link almost deserves its own thread.

$114 million in total revenue off XBLA games. That is much higher than I previously thought.

grognard66

01-04-2008, 11:35 AM

I've heard people cite this theory before but I'm not familiar with the concepts behind it. How does the 360 hurt Sony's PC sales?

Yeah, this is one of the craziest conspiracy theories out there. If anything, MS would have wanted Sony to sell MORE PC's considering Windows is the default OS on every Sony PC...

MS clearly stated (and often repeated) the reasons for entering the console market. Like many others, MS sees the living room as the battleground for mindshare in a household and are convinced that consumers would rather have an all-in-one centralized device in that room instead of tucked away in a computer room. The xbox is the Trojan Horse to get MS services and products into the living room. That's why Live! has been such a central tenet for MS - it's the medium to download consumable products from MS who controls the "storefront".

You can also see this in their announced (although terribly delayed) integration efforts with mobile Live, Live for Windows and Zune.

51|RandoM

01-04-2008, 11:40 AM

Microsoft wants to make money and increase the number of markets it has a successful presence in. Beating Sony in a number of those markets is a requirement to achieve that goal, not the goal itself---unless you've got your tinfoil hat on so tight it is cutting off blood-flow to your brain.

Rune_74

01-04-2008, 11:41 AM

You mean microsoft wants to make money? Are you kidding me?

netcraazzy

01-04-2008, 12:02 PM

XBLA is doing well, and not included in the attach rate numbers. There is someone out there who crawls peoples profiles and traps how many people have achievements for a given game and tracks sales that way.

It's not exact, but it's interesting data. Quite a few games have pulled in over $1mil.

http://www.vgchartz.com/news/news.php?id=737

Interesting information indeed. It looks like Uno takes the crown for most downloads but Texas Hold'em has the most gross revenue. I'm a little surprised Geometry Wars has only half as many downloads as Uno.

Trazzlo the Magnificant

01-04-2008, 12:09 PM

I think the provided link almost deserves its own thread.I agree! That is a great link, and I assume there is some margin for error but it's probably about as close to the real picture as we will ever see without MS giving their own numbers.

Very few million sellers (just one I think), but then again developers said that sales from Live weren't a big explosion like you see when releasing a retail game (which then drops off in sales), but rather a steady trickle of sales.

I assume that the games are also much, much less expensive to create compared to a retail game (complexity and scope).

And, some content like expansions and new maps might not be included in the totals if they don't have achievements, if the achievements are the trigger. But, those are the very things that might have the most sales too (more Halo 3 maps, Gears of War maps, Guitar Hero and Rock Band tracks ...).

And doesn't include video downloads.

So, that $100 million is probably on the low side of total revenues created.

Edit: Oh, and 15,377,200 total software sales for about 17 million units sold adds almost 1 more "software sold" per unit hardware. Not counting all the things that don't include achievements. At the same time, they sell for far less than a retail game.

grognard66

01-04-2008, 12:52 PM

I'm too lazy to backcheck if anyone clarified this already, but if you're looking at the attach rates based on the NPD numbers that is only for retail sales, not downloadable games. Sales of the Arcade bundle sold on disc would be included, but not sales for games users download from Live!
I have no idea if VG charts or others use that methodology though.

Tabasco

01-04-2008, 12:58 PM

I still think that if you drilled down to the hardcore Wii market, the attach rate wouldn't look much different than that of 360. But the applied attach rate to the much bigger Wii market still means that individual games can sell better on Wii despite selling to a smaller percentage of the overall market. Quite simply, the Wii market is not unified.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. I've had my Wii for a little over a year and I have 9 games for it. That's not including virtual console of course.

Jack B

01-04-2008, 01:09 PM

ECM, I understand where you're coming from, but we just look at it differently. Someone once said, "No battle plan ever remained unchanged in the face of the enemy..." or something like that. A win's a win. The hardcore market expanded in 2007 and Microsoft got a bigger piece than the consensus would have predicted. They also made money for two quarters. Cause for a celebration. I didn't expect a 70/30 win in Marketshare. Most thought Sony would be catching up in 2007. Many thought they'd be completely caught up, but they're still 8 million behind.

Basically, I view the PS3 as the competition. The hardcore market is extremely healthy. That market sold more units and more dollars in both software and hardware than the Wii's casual market. Thus, if you kill your competitor in that market you win.

Using the football analogy, the game (ie the Hardcore market sales) were plenty strong and the 360 held their own against the Patriots. In David Reeves own words ""PlayStation 3, you will see, will be far and away the winner when you look at it by March '08. They really, really will," he predicted.

Far and away the winner by March '08. Far and away is very far from being 50/50 Worldwide in 2007 and still 8 million units back with lower software attach rates.

I'm sure Microsoft wanted a 70% market share of the high end in 2007, but realistically at launch in Nov of 2006 the consensus was they'd be hanging on as Sony won month after month. Sony is struggled to win a single month in 2007. A win's a win in my book.

The market's up significantly in hardware and software. Much of the Wii crowd will either buy a PS3 or 360 later or already have, so they still function more as a farm system for the bigger hardcore market (dollars and units of hardware and sofware), so the Wii's number's just increase the gaming market. That's not a bad thing for Microsoft in the long term.

I look at 2007 as a win against a very formidable opponent. You see it differently. I understand why you see it that way, I just think 2007 was a win, not a loss.