Tretton: "PS3 Will Be Lead Development Platform"

[jromero]

Here's your daily Tretton news story (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8396&Itemid=2).

"Developers are telling us that they are starting to create their games on PS3 first and take advantage of the hardware capabilities and then port down to other platforms so we are seeing tremendous progress from the third party community in terms of what they are able to do with our development kits."

I wonder who these 'developers' are. To say Tretton has a history of saying incredibly ambitious things about his company is an understatement.

[bapenguin]

Well it wasn't long ago that the guy from Midway had said it makes sense to use the PS3 as the lead only because it gives you more time to overcome technical hurdles, and its much easier to port that direction.

[NoName]

Well it wasn't long ago that the guy from Midway had said it makes sense to use the PS3 as the lead only because it gives you more time to overcome technical hurdles, and its much easier to port that direction.

That's what I remember hearing. Sony's good at pretending anyone saying something bad about the PS3 is a good thing though :).

[Schnoogs]

http://www.assassinworks.com/**********

[Gorvi]

If that's what it takes to get a quality game on both consoles, then good.

[51|RandoM]

Well... if I were planning a multiplatform title I would start on PS3 first.

Why? Because it takes longer to produce the same level of quality on the PS3. :)

...or at least that is how it seems.

[Bydo_Empire]

and then port down to other platforms Hah, that's rich. Great spin, Mr. Tretton, great spin. There are good reasons to make the PS3 the lead platform, but that has nothing to do with "porting down." More like "if the PS3 can handle it, we won't run into tons of issues on 360."

[Ink Asylum]

Spin it, baby! PR must be a fun career.

2 + 2 = 5!

[jromero]

Spin it, baby! PR must be a fun career.

2 + 2 = 5!

Sometimes I wonder if Sony's PR writers are out striking with the rest of them. It's the only thing I can think of.

[Siraris]

Criterion is another other than Midway, and there was impressions of Turok posted yesterday that said it looks identical to the 360 version.

Spin it, baby! PR must be a fun career.

2 + 2 = 5!

What in the world does this have to do with spin? Do you even know what spin is?

[Baron Samedi]

http://www.geekpulp.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowslivewriterhappybirthdayxbox360andps3-f065ps3cake54.jpg

[Lord_Don]

Jack Tretton should go on tour, with the level of comedy he comes up with on a regular basis.

[Laughing_Penguin]

http://www.geekpulp.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowslivewriterhappybirthdayxbox360andps3-f065ps3cake54.jpg


The cake is a lie.

[Yeti2005]

Developers should do whatever Infinity Ward did for Call of Duty 4. The game turned out awesome on both platforms.

[SPBTooL]

2 + 2 = 5!I really think that in Sony's world it's;

3 - 2 = 5

Totally skewed but with a quick glance it looks right.

[Typical_Michael]

http://www.assassinworks.com/**********

One day, there is going to be a sony thread without this in it, and I am going to be worried.

[DiBiddilyBop]

I feel like quoting Jack Tretton is like quoting Jack Thompson. He says stupid shit all the time and just makes everyone shake their head and say, "Oh, Jack... you're silly," and then move on with their day.

[Reanimated]

Yeah, no. I won't be buying any gimped ps3do ports.

[51|RandoM]

Developers should do whatever Infinity Ward did for Call of Duty 4. The game turned out awesome on both platforms.

We're going to have to start a list of developers who can find their asshole on ps3 without using a map, a gps, and both hands.

Infinity Ward
Naughty Dog
Insomniac Games
Criterion Games
Polyphony Digital
Starbreeze
Codemasters

[lockwoodx]

At least he's a bit more focused and optomistic rather than out right batshit crazy. I'll give him that.

Yeah, no. I won't be buying any gimped ps3do ports.

I still play my 3DO often TYVM! Some body sold one with 4 controllers about 150 games for 200 bucks and I snatched it up. Starcontroll2 Melee > mario party

[Gorvi]

Yeah, no. I won't be buying any gimped ps3do ports.
Wow, that's just as funny as it was when the first troll used it! :rolleyes:

[Goronmon]

What in the world does this have to do with spin? Do you even know what spin is?Developers: We want to focus on the PS3 work first, because it's the harder system to develop on and will end up taking longer than the others.

Sony: Developers are focusing on the PS3 work first because of it's superior technology, and afterwards they can downgrade to the other systems if they want.

[Ink Asylum]

What in the world does this have to do with spin? Do you even know what spin is?

Bad spin means making someone believe the opposite of what information really is saying.

"Developers are starting production on the PS3 because porting to the PS3 is fraught with problems."

Run it through the spin-machine and it becomes:

"Developers are starting production on the PS3 then porting to other consoles."

One sounds like the PS3 is superior, but the actual information means the PS3 is inferior. You know, developing a game for the NES and porting it to the 360 is easier than the reverse. The NES is superior to the Xbox 360!

Black is white! Up is down! 2+2=5! Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?

[DangerousDaze]

One sounds like the PS3 is superior, but the actual information means the PS3 is inferior.
Fail. There's nothing to suggest that one is any more superior or inferior than the other.

[oldjadedgamer]

Doesn't matter to me which is the main platform as long as it doesn't delay the game and they look the same.

But if sales show that PS3 owners will buy dumbed down ports from 360 does it really matter? Look at Madden on PS3, it sold fairly well for the userbase of the system at the time. It will be interesting to see the Orange Box sales on PS3 since this will show if PS3 owners care and buy dumbed down ports anyway.

[Ink Asylum]

Fail. There's nothing to suggest that one is any more superior or inferior than the other.

There have been numerous developers complaining about how much harder it is to program for the PS3, particularly when it comes to multi-platform titles. ( http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136072-c,gameconsoles/article.html)

"If your game starts on Xbox 360 you will have to re-engineer aspects of the game to run properly on PS3. This means additional effort," Sony's development team told us back in June. Assuming Madden first started development on 360, the above issue could have easily resulted in slower moving frame rates.

Even Kaz Hirai admits it. ( http://www.playstatic.com/news/794)

“If you look back at the commentary we received when we launched PS2, there was a lot of talk to the effect that ‘It’s very difficult to program for’ and ‘It’s easier on a Dreamcast’. It’s happened before. If they came back and told me, ‘PS3? We can do this in a heartbeat,’ that would be worrying because what it is telling me is that we’re not pushing the envelope from a technology standpoint. The power that we’ve packed into PS3 will really manifest itself in software titles that come up four, five or six years down the line.”

Sure, the spin is that "Our console is so awesome that you're going to tear your hair out trying to make games for it!" Whoop-de-doo. While that might mean better games after three to four years when developers have figured out what to do, it translates to poorer games now, when the system needs good games to solidify its market.

[KidNicarus]

Horseshit. Developers will continue to focus on the console with the largest install base. Since most PS3/360 games cannot run on the Wii due to memory limitations, this leaves the 360.

I'm not saying its the right thing to do. As of two weeks ago I now own all of the next generation systems so I personally don't care which one wins out. That being said as the 360 gains more and more ground in the US and the PS3 continues to lag behind, the idea of developers leading on PS3 sounds pretty retarded.

[Kamalot]

We're going to have to start a list of developers who can find their asshole on ps3 without using a map, a gps, and both hands.

Infinity Ward
Naughty Dog
Insomniac Games
Criterion Games
Polyphony Digital
Starbreeze
Codemasters

Aren't a number of these companies Sony-exclusives or funded in part by Sony?

[Darkman]

Actually the statement made is only half true.

PS3 is probably going to be the lead development platform.

But its not because the hardware is so great, its because it has so many limitations that to get the game from a 360 to a PS3 means you are going to have to cut shit from the game.

If you make it specifically for the PS3 then its pretty easy to port over to 360 with no problems.

Of course most of us developers who aren't on the tech side of the ball don't like that idea. But the suits do, so what can you do?

[DoubleUranium]

Fail. There's nothing to suggest that one is any more superior or inferior than the other.

I think it's been fairly well established that the PS3 development environment is inferior to the 360's development environment.

[DangerousDaze]

There have been numerous developers complaining about how much harder it is to program for the PS3

So what? As a consumer I don't give a flying fuck how difficult it is to develop for. All I care about is that it's possible to develop games that run equally well on both systems so how does that make one system any more or less powerful than the other?

[oldjadedgamer]

Aren't a number of these companies Sony-exclusives or funded in part by Sony?

And current sales show that even those games aren't pushing sales. Uncharted only sold 117k even with being on sale over Black Friday.

Developers will go where the money is and that is the 360 userbase. What incentive do third parties have to favor the PS3 if even their first party games aren't selling?

I'm just afraid by making the PS3 version the lead it will delay the games release.

[51|RandoM]

Aren't a number of these companies Sony-exclusives or funded in part by Sony?

Sure they are. Still doesn't change my point though. Perhaps you're trying to make a different point? If so, then spit it out.

[Lord_Don]

So what? As a consumer I don't give a flying fuck how difficult it is to develop for.

As a consumer you should give a flying fuck how difficult it is to develop for. Sure, some developers are gluttons for punishment and will do it to prove that they can but others will just throw up their hands and say "fuck that" and move to a different platform.

Not good news if you own the machine that's difficult to develop for and you want games to play on it.

[asimonk]

So what? As a consumer I don't give a flying fuck how difficult it is to develop for. All I care about is that it's possible to develop games that run equally well on both systems so how does that make one system any more or less powerful than the other?

I care when a game is pushed back because trying to get it working on a system I don't own forces the game to be pushed back.

[51|RandoM]

And current sales show that even those games aren't pushing sales. Uncharted only sold 117k even with being on sale over Black Friday.

Uncharted came out in a crowded market and had less marketing than the titles that outsold it.

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"

[51|RandoM]

I care when a game is pushed back because trying to get it working on a system I don't own forces the game to be pushed back.

So? Are you saying that games can only be fun if they come out when you want them to? Oh noes, the game got pushed back 3 months, now it won't be fun at all.

/boggle.

[Vanthar]

So what? As a consumer I don't give a flying fuck how difficult it is to develop for. All I care about is that it's possible to develop games that run equally well on both systems so how does that make one system any more or less powerful than the other?

And that's the point. They're doing this to ensure the games are going to be equal or at least not 'dumbed down' for one system. To say it's because they're porting to the better system is pretty stupid. Porting code from 360 to PS3 is definitely worse for the PS3 than porting code from the PS3 to 360 is for the 360. The PS3's architecture must be planned for, we've heard this many times before. I just would like to see PS3 only owners be able to enjoy games like Orange Box at nearly the same level as their 360 counterparts.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that I think as developers get engines developed for the PS3 (this is what, 1 year and a month now?), we're not going to see bad ports and PS3 delays. They needed time to get a foothold on the unique architecture and once that has been done they should be solid in terms of PS3 development. It's clearly a steeper learning curve than the 360, but I don't think we're giving developers enough credit on their ability to handle new technology.

[Ink Asylum]

So what? As a consumer I don't give a flying fuck how difficult it is to develop for. All I care about is that it's possible to develop games that run equally well on both systems so how does that make one system any more or less powerful than the other?

It's not a matter of "more powerful" it's a matter of the quality of games that actually get released. It's possible to make a spectacular game on the PS3, probably better than what's possible on the 360, but those types of games aren't going to be made on a regular basis if the console is a bitch to develop for.

Games are made more often than not by corporations with very strict timelines for development. Companies do not like to see games delayed because of programming difficulties. If the company is lenient, they'll take the extra time to make both versions work well. If it's not, like EA, you get an inferior version on PS3 because it's pushed out the door to meet a release date.

"Possible" does not equal "Feasible." You could make a game console that is three times as powerful as the PS3. Sure, it'd be possible to make stellar games for that system, but that doesn't mean its feasible.

[Deadend]

So? Are you saying that games can only be fun if they come out when you want them to? Oh noes, the game got pushed back 3 months, now it won't be fun at all.

/boggle.

Well, when the 360 version comes out 3 months or so before.. or a month or 2 sooner, it grates on the average owner.

And it really does matter about how easy it is to code a game. Easier coding means fewer bugs, and probably more features, as it's easier to make the features.

[Gorvi]

And that's the point. They're doing this to ensure the games are going to be equal or at least not 'dumbed down' for one system. To say it's because they're porting to the better system is pretty stupid. Porting code from 360 to PS3 is definitely worse for the PS3 than porting code from the PS3 to 360 is for the 360. The PS3's architecture must be planned for, we've heard this many times before. I just would like to see PS3 only owners be able to enjoy games like Orange Box at nearly the same level as their 360 counterparts.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that I think as developers get engines developed for the PS3 (this is what, 1 year and a month now?), we're not going to see bad ports and PS3 delays. They needed time to get a foothold on the unique architecture and once that has been done they should be solid in terms of PS3 development. It's clearly a steeper learning curve than the 360, but I don't think we're giving developers enough credit on their ability to handle new technology.
How dare you come in here with your logic and reason?! ;)

[Ink Asylum]

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"

That's an interesting prediction. Possible, maybe, but I doubt it. This has nothing to do with the relative quality of Assassin's Creed to Uncharted. Maybe if Uncharted gets more marketing out there, but that's probably not going to happen. It's a shame, but a fact of the market. It's very rare when a game that doesn't sell well out of the gate vastly outperforms a multiple-million seller like Assassin's Creed over the long term. Ubisoft isn't going to let that success slow down.

[Hexxagonal]

wouldn't it make more sense to have the lead platform be the one that is currently selling more? that is unless money is involved.

[civil_dead]

Uncharted came out in a crowded market and had less marketing than the titles that outsold it.

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"
Random, I'll hold you to this in six months. Truth be told, six weeks later and people are saying, "Uncharted, who?"

In my little world, I may have personally sold three copies of AC (as well as systems to play them on) during the past week just by having people stop by.

And Jade? Never forgotten. Not while there are palms to be made hairy.

[Goronmon]

So? Are you saying that games can only be fun if they come out when you want them to? Oh noes, the game got pushed back 3 months, now it won't be fun at all.

/boggle.You can't understand why people would be upset because a game's release date is pushed back despite it being ready for release?

/boggle

[bKangy]

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"

You're crazy and this post is crazy. :mad:

[King Drewsky]

"Developers are telling us that they are starting to create their games on PS3 first because it takes longer and it is less complicated to port from than to our platform and then port over to other platforms so we are seeing less grumbling from the third party community in terms of what they are able to do with our development kits."

Fixed. ....

[Darkmatter]

Uncharted does look like a good game but I think it's far more likely that it will be forgotten first (compared to Ass's Creed) simply because the PS3 has a smaller customer base to buy the game. The more people playing a good game, the longer it will be around in the hearts and minds of gamers.

[LongStepMantis]

Sometimes, Tretton gives me hope that there is life on other planets.
No one from earth could be as fucking clueless as he is and not have killed themselves already. ;)

[lockwoodx]

How dare you come in here with your logic and reason?! ;)

Wall of logic crits you for over 9000 damage.
You die.
Respawn in basement?

[roboninja]

Sure they are. Still doesn't change my point though. Perhaps you're trying to make a different point? If so, then spit it out.

Sony, the new Nintendo!

[Zaro]

They can be the lead development console only if they sell more console than the Xbox360, or PS3 owner buy more games than those with the Xbox360.

For the momment it's preferable to develop for the Xbox360 first and port down on the PS3.

[asimonk]

So? Are you saying that games can only be fun if they come out when you want them to? Oh noes, the game got pushed back 3 months, now it won't be fun at all.

/boggle.

Now you're just being thick. Really, this is probably the most retarded statement I have seen you make.

I actually typed out a long elaborate response complete with a flowchart pointing out the inanity of your response. However, because it appears that you failed at even comprehending what I wrote, I figured a rebuttal would be wasted.

But to reiterate, as a consumer, yes, I do care when a game is delayed because they are trying to get it to work on a system I am not even planning on buying it for; hell I'd probably be annoyed if the system I wanted to buy it for was so difficult to program for that the vast majority of its titles were delayed. But at no point did I say anything about the game being fun.

[Ink Asylum]

But to reiterate, as a consumer, yes, I do care when a game is delayed because they are trying to get it to work on a system I am not even planning on buying it for; hell I'd probably be annoyed if the system I wanted to buy it for was so difficult to program for that the vast majority of its titles were delayed. But at no point did I say anything about the game being fun.

Remember that the bigger problem is not that games might be delayed, but that they might not. If a release date must be met and the team is struggling with optimizing the port, many companies will just say "Fuck it, ship now, who cares if the framerate is ass."

[gzsfrk]

Put up or shut up, Jack. I (and I suspect many others) am tired of reading and hearing about what you claim "will be" or is "going to come". Start showing something, or just shut up. You look and sound like a fool.

[gzsfrk]

Uncharted came out in a crowded market and had less marketing than the titles that outsold it.

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"

Baseless speculation, meet biased perspective. You two should get along swimmingly.

[oldjadedgamer]

Uncharted came out in a crowded market and had less marketing than the titles that outsold it.

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"

This is a lame excuse that could be used for every single game in the history of time that bombed. Fact is that this title is bombing at retail especially in the light of it being a key first party exclusive this holiday from one of Sony's top first party developers.

Shoot, even Resident Evil: UC on the Wii outsold it.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.samruby.com/Villains/DoctorDoom/DrDoomChap.gif

[Ravenlock]

I wonder who these 'developers' are. To say Tretton has a history of saying incredibly ambitious things about his company is an understatement.

Yes, where "incredibly ambitious things" frequently = "blatant falsehoods".

It amazes me that Sony seems to continue to feel that there's absolutely no consequence to simply fabricating their public statements, no matter how many times it's proven otherwise. "If you can find a PS3 anywhere in North America that's been on the shelves for more than 5 minutes, I will give you $1200 for it", anybody?

*Rolls eyes* Just more of the same. It's like listening to the Iraqi Information Minister guy. "Things are going well, no-one is storming the palace, do not believe your eyes, we are in control!" On the one hand, I understand, it's the guy's job. On the other hand, though, if the choice is say something that makes you look like an idiot or say nothing... I probably wouldn't go with the "make yourself look like an idiot" option.

[rickmus]

As a developer, if simultaneous ship on the PS3, 360, and PC are desired, you would use the PS3 as your lead development sku because it is the lowest common denominator. Given a basic implementation ( i.e. little console specific tuning ), if it runs well on the PS3, it will run great on the 360 and the PC. The other direction simply is not true.

[DangerousDaze]

I wonder who these 'developers' are. To say Tretton has a history of saying incredibly ambitious things about his company is an understatement.

As has been stated already Midway and Criterion have already stated this publicly and there's no reason to suspect they're the only two. Even if they were it would still be enough to prove that this wasn't all in Tretton's mind.

[Ink Asylum]

*Rolls eyes* Just more of the same. It's like listening to the Iraqi Information Minister guy. "Things are going well, no-one is storming the palace, do not believe your eyes, we are in control!" On the one hand, I understand, it's the guy's job. On the other hand, though, if the choice is say something that makes you look like an idiot or say nothing... I probably wouldn't go with the "make yourself look like an idiot" option.

I miss Baghdad Bob. I wonder what happened to him.

[karak]

Here's your daily Tretton news story (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8396&Itemid=2).



I wonder who these 'developers' are. To say Tretton has a history of saying incredibly ambitious things about his company is an understatement.

Well I am sure this is true for those people who are going to multiport, it's been stated many times that about 2x the amount of time is needed on the PS3 to make the game perform the same. However if all the changes occurred today we would not see the results for some time.

[Siraris]

Bad spin means making someone believe the opposite of what information really is saying.

"Developers are starting production on the PS3 because porting to the PS3 is fraught with problems."

Run it through the spin-machine and it becomes:

"Developers are starting production on the PS3 then porting to other consoles."

One sounds like the PS3 is superior, but the actual information means the PS3 is inferior. You know, developing a game for the NES and porting it to the 360 is easier than the reverse. The NES is superior to the Xbox 360!

Black is white! Up is down! 2+2=5! Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?

I don't know what you're talking about, but you are completely wrong and talking purely based on conjecture as opposed to fact. You are making the classic internet argument that you somehow gleaned from reading messageboards, and that's really sad.

The PS3 isn't "harder" to develop for, and the only developers saying that are absolutely lazy developers who complain every generation when not having everything handed to them on a silver platter. The PS3 takes more pre-planning during the design stage to account for, and if you do that, not only is the PS3 game great, but the 360 port will also benefit from it as well.

Porting to the PS3 is not fraught with problems, it's just much easier on everyone to go from PS3 to 360 as opposed to 360 to PS3. It takes time to understand how to port from one console to another, and it didn't help that PS3 dev kits got out extremely late to developers who were already extremely far in their 360 development. But I'm sure you don't think of these things - like most of the people on this site who just hate on Sony for the sake of doing so.

Regardless, you still haven't explained how this is spin, because your explanation is wrong. I understand quite well what spin is, and this is not it. People who think that he's somehow inferring in his statement that the PS3 is the superior console and so they have to "port down" to other consoles, are obviously looking at his statements with a huge pair of fanboy goggles. It's fairly clear that he's saying that they are developing their engines for PS3 to utilize it on the hardware, and then switch it over to 360. If you want to infer any more than that, that's your mistake.

And here's spin:

News about company A with a $200 million dollar bottom line: "Company A recorded a $50 million US loss in the fourth quarter of 2007".

Company A: "We see this as a minor setback in our development, and see our futures growth as extremely strong."

The funniest thing is that people on this site still think that they know more about what is going on in the industry than the president of SCEA. At this point in the game, it's really pretty nauseating that we're still seeing posts like this on this site, especially when they are so off base.

[DangerousDaze]

The PS3 isn't "harder" to develop for,

Heh, now I'm about as a big a fanboy as the next card-carrying member of the SDF, but even I wouldn't agree with that. ;)

[oldjadedgamer]

It takes time to understand how to port from one console to another, and it didn't help that PS3 dev kits got out extremely late to developers who were already extremely far in their 360 development. But I'm sure you don't think of these things - like most of the people on this site who just hate on Sony for the sake of doing so.

That's not what Sony said about the dev kits back in July 06. According to them, they had already shipped out over 10,000 dev kits. Doesn't sound like "extremely late" to me.

"To date we have shipped more than 10,000 development systems to 208 companies in 11 countries, the largest number ever for a PlayStation platform."

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3502&Itemid=2

[Gorvi]

That's not what Sony said about the dev kits back in July 06. According to them, they had already shipped out over 10,000 dev kits. Doesn't sound like "extremely late" to me.

"To date we have shipped more than 10,000 development systems to 208 companies in 11 countries, the largest number ever for a PlayStation platform."

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3502&Itemid=2
Actually, that says nothing about when they were shipped, just that they were. Considering that article was six months before the console shipped, they very well could have been extremely late if they'd only gone out within the past few months. Unless, of course, getting a dev kit only a few months before a console's launch isn't considered extremely late.

[karak]

The PS3 isn't "harder" to develop for, and the only developers saying that are absolutely lazy developers who complain every generation when not having everything handed to them on a silver platter. The PS3 takes more pre-planning during the design stage to account for, and if you do that, not only is the PS3 game great, but the 360 port will also benefit from it as well.

Porting to the PS3 is not fraught with problems, it's just much easier on everyone to go from PS3 to 360 as opposed to 360 to PS3. It takes time to understand how to port from one console to another, and it didn't help that PS3 dev kits got out extremely late to developers who were already extremely far in their 360 development. But I'm sure you don't think of these things - like most of the people on this site who just hate on Sony for the sake of doing so.


I used to believe what you are saying as well. Until I started reading articles from the likes of John Carmack who argues with everything you said(and he is just one), and he is most assuredly not lazy. And there are literally over a hundred articles, developer blogs and so forth about just this. Even after John created the Rage engine he has stated many times that the PS3 is "fraught with problems". Problems he is trying to hide in his own game engine but still problems that are causing MANY developers issues.
It is ok to admit something like this. I don't know why people try to hide the weaknesses of their systems. Its life and its a scientific fact. You can't just hide it.
I googled this and found about 1000 pages with random tidbits from tons of developers, its easy to check.

Am I a Sony hater? NO, I think they dropped the ball, big difference. And I think that many people owe thousands of amazing childhood memories to them and refuse to see the problems Sony created for itself.
I also prefer to read ALL the news, not bits of it and pick. And sometimes the majority rules.
And the majority think that the PS3 is "fraught with problems"-Difficult to develop for and extends the development time of games to almost 1.5 to 2x what it would take on an easier to develop system with NO measurable increase in game graphics or game play.
I took the blinders off when the Saturn came out and had the EXACT same issues with programming and having to live through that shit sucked. Especially when all of us were so stoked for an easy to develop Sega Genesis replacement. They made a mistake and now Sony did.

[Ink Asylum]

I used to believe what you are saying as well. Until I started reading articles from the likes of John Carmack who argues with everything you said(and he is just one), and he is most assuredly not lazy. And there are literally over a hundred articles, developer blogs and so forth about just this. Even after John created the Rage engine he has stated many times that the PS3 is "fraught with problems". Problems he is trying to hide in his own game engine but still problems that are causing MANY developers issues.
It is ok to admit something like this. I don't know why people try to hide the weaknesses of their systems. Its life and its a scientific fact. You can't just hide it.
I googled this and found about 1000 pages with random tidbits from tons of developers, its easy to check.

Thanks for the backup. :)

Seriously, Siraris, we're not just reading message boards here. Go ahead, do a Google search for "PS3 development difficulties". Sure, some people say it's not a problem, but plenty of developers say it is. Are they all liars? Lazy? Sure, blame the developers.

[oldjadedgamer]

Actually, that says nothing about when they were shipped, just that they were. Considering that article was six months before the console shipped, they very well could have been extremely late if they'd only gone out within the past few months. Unless, of course, getting a dev kit only a few months before a console's launch isn't considered extremely late.

Didn't seem to hurt Resistance.

[Gorvi]

Didn't seem to hurt Resistance.
Nope, not really. But then again, not every dev is Insomniac, either.

[Vandenh]

The funniest thing is that people on this site still think that they know more about what is going on in the industry than the president of SCEA. At this point in the game, it's really pretty nauseating that we're still seeing posts like this on this site, especially when they are so off base.

Seriously? You complain about the classic internet argument but yours is even better. The "company X knows better" defense is always a good one to shut up any arguments. Yea... we have no clue... *only* people working high level at Sony know about these things. Silly devs that we are.

[jpublic]

Thanks for the backup. :)

Seriously, Siraris, we're not just reading message boards here. Go ahead, do a Google search for "PS3 development difficulties". Sure, some people say it's not a problem, but plenty of developers say it is. Are they all liars? Lazy? Sure, blame the developers.

Of course it's the developers' fault! I mean, if they weren't such useless morons, they'd all be working exclusively on the PS3, and would also intuitively understand the unsurpassed triumph that is the PS3 architecture!

*rolleyes*

What makes this whole thing really amusing is that I remember hearing this same thing from Intel about the Itanium. And various scientific platforms people have pushed at my work.

Ah, what's old is new again.

Edit: I think I remember MS saything something similar about one of their defunct development platforms. Whee.

[rickmus]

I don't know what you're talking about, but you are completely wrong and talking purely based on conjecture as opposed to fact. You are making the classic internet argument that you somehow gleaned from reading messageboards, and that's really sad.

The PS3 isn't "harder" to develop for, and the only developers saying that are absolutely lazy developers who complain every generation when not having everything handed to them on a silver platter. The PS3 takes more pre-planning during the design stage to account for, and if you do that, not only is the PS3 game great, but the 360 port will also benefit from it as well.

Porting to the PS3 is not fraught with problems, it's just much easier on everyone to go from PS3 to 360 as opposed to 360 to PS3. It takes time to understand how to port from one console to another, and it didn't help that PS3 dev kits got out extremely late to developers who were already extremely far in their 360 development. But I'm sure you don't think of these things - like most of the people on this site who just hate on Sony for the sake of doing so.

Regardless, you still haven't explained how this is spin, because your explanation is wrong. I understand quite well what spin is, and this is not it. People who think that he's somehow inferring in his statement that the PS3 is the superior console and so they have to "port down" to other consoles, are obviously looking at his statements with a huge pair of fanboy goggles. It's fairly clear that he's saying that they are developing their engines for PS3 to utilize it on the hardware, and then switch it over to 360. If you want to infer any more than that, that's your mistake.

And here's spin:

News about company A with a $200 million dollar bottom line: "Company A recorded a $50 million US loss in the fourth quarter of 2007".

Company A: "We see this as a minor setback in our development, and see our futures growth as extremely strong."

The funniest thing is that people on this site still think that they know more about what is going on in the industry than the president of SCEA. At this point in the game, it's really pretty nauseating that we're still seeing posts like this on this site, especially when they are so off base.

Wow, are you completely wrong. As since I have direct working programming experience on all three platforms, I can say that statement with confidence.

The PS3 development tools are far, very far, inferior from those of the 360 or the PC. The 360 has a unified memory architecture, so you can decide what piece of memory is used for what ( cached vs uncached memory ), the PS3 forces memory into two hard lines, 256 megs for system ram, 256 megs for GPU. The threads on the 360 are universal, can access all memory, no special compiler or code. The SPUs on the PS3 require a special compiler, need to do DMA requests to get memory from main memory, their logic and local storage must fit within 256k, etc. The 360 GPU is faster than that of the PS3. The compiler on the PS3 is slower, debugging tools are clumbsy, no direct easy file interface to the hard drive from the PC side.

Maybe, some how, one might say, that the entire sum of all of the PS3 units are faster than the 360, but if the hardware interface, software interface, development tools, etc make it 10 times harder to get to that performance, then it is not an easier / not a better system to develop for.

Sony is more than a generation behind in terms of the tools it provides vs what Microsoft delivers. You will find NO developer who has worked with both the 360 and the PS3 to disagree with that statement.

[asimonk]

Wow, are you completely wrong. As since I have direct working programming experience on all three platforms, I can say that statement with confidence.

The PS3 development tools are far, very far, inferior from those of the 360 or the PC. The 360 has a unified memory architecture, so you can decide what piece of memory is used for what ( cached vs uncached memory ), the PS3 forces memory into two hard lines, 256 megs for system ram, 256 megs for GPU. The threads on the 360 are universal, can access all memory, no special compiler or code. The SPUs on the PS3 require a special compiler, need to do DMA requests to get memory from main memory, their logic and local storage must fit within 256k, etc. The 360 GPU is faster than that of the PS3. The compiler on the PS3 is slower, debugging tools are clumbsy, no direct easy file interface to the hard drive from the PC side.

Maybe, some how, one might say, that the entire sum of all of the PS3 units are faster than the 360, but if the hardware interface, software interface, development tools, etc make it 10 times harder to get to that performance, then it is not an easier / not a better system to develop for.

Sony is more than a generation behind in terms of the tools it provides vs what Microsoft delivers. You will find NO developer who has worked with both the 360 and the PS3 to disagree with that statement.

This is such typical microsoft fanboy rhetoric. Pathetic.

[Phades]

Well, when the 360 version comes out 3 months or so before.. or a month or 2 sooner, it grates on the average owner.


I think that may be part of the point too. If the PS3 version is lead then it should be easier to have them come out around the same time.

Even if this does cause a delay of the 360 version, most people that don't read video game forums daily like us would ever know or care.

[Meglomaniac]

Most devs are shifting their focus from PS3 to Wii and 360 as the lead sku. The 360 allows for a much nicer set of feature rich dev tools which make debugging a snap. This means that game features can be coded quickly and debugged extremely fast when compared to the tools for other systems. I think the developers Tretton got his info from were sony owned studios.

As for uncharted, all you ps3 fanboys are fooling yourself. All that game is, is a rehash of tomb raider with lara having a gender change which is why I wont buy it. And we all know that tomb raider only really was popular due to laras assets.

[Gorvi]

As for uncharted, all you ps3 fanboys are fooling yourself. All that game is, is a rehash of tomb raider with lara having a gender change which is why I wont buy it. And we all know that tomb raider only really was popular due to laras assets.
Then you haven't actually played the game, as that's not what it is, or what it plays like. Try actually knowing what you're talking about next time.

[rickmus]

This is such typical microsoft fanboy rhetoric. Pathetic.

Tell me, professor, where are your facts or working development knowledge of those consoles to directly contradict anything I said.

Fact: compiling the PS3 version of the games I'm working on takes 2 times longer
Fact: the debugger is ProDG, which doesn't integrate into the development environment, has a clumbsy window / frames layout, that you can't debug the SPUs without the PowerPC processor still running ( i.e. all threads across the entire system should stop when debugging )
Fact: the thread system on the 360 vs the SPU is documented towards what I described
Fact: the memory layout is what I described
Fact: Sony's equivalent to PIX and xbPerfView are very very far behind

That's not an MS fan boy, that's the fact of the state of their tools and hardware. Yeah, maybe it is hard for you to swallow that MS did something right, but when it comes to the 360 development environment, it is much better there.

[Phades]

Most devs are shifting their focus from PS3 to Wii and 360 as the lead sku. The 360 allows for a much nicer set of feature rich dev tools which make debugging a snap. This means that game features can be coded quickly and debugged extremely fast when compared to the tools for other systems. I think the developers Tretton got his info from were sony owned studios.

As for uncharted, all you ps3 fanboys are fooling yourself. All that game is, is a rehash of tomb raider with lara having a gender change which is why I wont buy it. And we all know that tomb raider only really was popular due to laras assets.

Spoken truly as a person who hasn't played Uncharted. And actually, Tomb Raider was/is a great game. If you get off on polygonal fun bags..... well, more power to you.

[jpublic]

This is such typical microsoft fanboy rhetoric. Pathetic.

I....just...wait...jus....no. Are you *serious*? Or is my sarcasm detector on the fritz?

Because if you're for real...just...wow. Your idiocy has made me practically incoherent. Bravo.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/27/seriouscall.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2334)

[absolut taco]

Maybe, some how, one might say, that the entire sum of all of the PS3 units are faster than the 360, but if the hardware interface, software interface, development tools, etc make it 10 times harder to get to that performance, then it is not an easier / not a better system to develop for.
That would explain why the PS3 games that look really hot (GT5, KZ2, MGS4) take a long time to make even with huge development teams. And without many great games, your console is in trouble.

[fatefodder]

While I don't have any quotes handy right now, I believe I've heard developers come out and say things analogous to "the 360 is easier to develop for than the PS3 is." Have we heard any developer (or anyone with engineering experience) come out and say that "the PS3 is easier to develop for than the 360 is"?

Maybe I've been missing it, I haven't heard the latter, and I have read that:
(1) The PS3 requires more planning to develop for (well)
(2) Porting to the PS3 from the 360 or PC is more difficult than going the other way around
(3) Developers sharing PS3 development optimization tips, if not openly publishing techniques
(4) Then we have quotes from the likes of John Carmack and Gabe Newell, and of course, Jack Tretton.

Hm...

For the record, I wonder where today's fanboys hanging on graphics capabilities were last generation, when the Xbox was clearly easier to developer for than the PS2 was, and clearly had stronger graphics capabilities. It also had a 7200RPM hard drive and built-in networking capabilities.

Oh, wait, there weren't arguments like these floating around every other day because there was no debate as to the strengths of each console--while the Xbox could output better graphics and bells and whistles, the PS2 had more games. The second proved more important because it meant that by the law of sums and averages, the PS2 had more games with fun gameplay, as well.

Interesting now with the two consoles much more closely matched graphically and feature-wise, that rather than stick to "gameplay"-focused debates, some people choose to argue about graphics comparisons, but even further to means-to-graphics comparisons. And other nitty-gritty details as such (i.e. which brand each "advantage" belongs to). So much for the significance of "gameplay."

I almost miss the fanboys who cried "graphics don't matter!"

EDIT: I guess those fanboys are now playing on the Wii, the clear indisputable winner so far this generation. Whoops.

[agentgray]

I can honestly say it's not Valve.

Also, this explains why most games come out on other consoles first.

Right? Right?

[absolut taco]

When they talk about porting a PS3 game to 360, why would that direction be so much easier? All that code they wrote must be rewritten the same way as if they ported 360 -> PS3, right?

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/27/seriouscall.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2334)
http://orly.yarly.org/orly.jpeg

[Evil Avnovice]

http://orly.yarly.org/orly.jpeg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/20/roflbot-sPys_2.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1987)

[LongStepMantis]

http://orly.yarly.org/orly.jpeg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd315/longstepmantis/aoz.jpg

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/20/roflbot-sPys_2.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1987)
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g194/afy_guild/GoldenGirlsThankYou.jpg

[asimonk]

Sarchasm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sarchasm)

Text sometimes makes it hard to convey intent =x

[LongStepMantis]

Sarchasm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sarchasm)

Text sometimes makes it hard to convey intent =x

Sarcasm is one of the things that doesn't translate well into text on the internet.
Adding a ";)" or ":rolleyes:" helps convey that a little better.

If I had a nickel for every time i tried being sarcastic and failed miserably over the net, well...I'd have a shitload of nickels.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g194/afy_guild/GoldenGirlsThankYou.jpg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/22/snoopExPost.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1977)

[gzsfrk]

When they talk about porting a PS3 game to 360, why would that direction be so much easier? All that code they wrote must be rewritten the same way as if they ported 360 -> PS3, right?

Porting an application designed for a system with an asymmetrical multi-core CPU to a system with a symmetrical multi-core CPU is MUCH easier than porting an app designed for a system with a symmetrical multi-core CPU to a system with an asymmetrical multi-core CPU.

That's one of the reasons, at least. Based on what I read, I suppose the 360's superior developer tools would be another, although I have no first hand experience with them to qualify that statement.

[51|RandoM]

That's an interesting prediction. Possible, maybe, but I doubt it. This has nothing to do with the relative quality of Assassin's Creed to Uncharted. Maybe if Uncharted gets more marketing out there, but that's probably not going to happen. It's a shame, but a fact of the market. It's very rare when a game that doesn't sell well out of the gate vastly outperforms a multiple-million seller like Assassin's Creed over the long term. Ubisoft isn't going to let that success slow down.

1st party vs. 3rd party. Sony will continue to market and support Uncharted just like they have Resistance:FoM.

Same thing will happen with Ratchet & Clank. All three are great titles on a platform with a limited install base and a limited library. As such they'll have longer legs than one would usually expect.

Oh yeah, you can consider that a fact of the market too, if you want.

[asimonk]

This is true.

:(

[51|RandoM]

Nope, not really. But then again, not every dev is Insomniac, either.

If they were this thread wouldn't exist.

[Evil Avnovice]

Sarchasm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sarchasm)

Text sometimes makes it hard to convey intent =x

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/42/Youre_Doing-it-wrong.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2224)

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/22/snoopExPost.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1977)
http://unmukts.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/youre-too-kind.jpg

[51|RandoM]

When they talk about porting a PS3 game to 360, why would that direction be so much easier? All that code they wrote must be rewritten the same way as if they ported 360 -> PS3, right?

No. The difference comes in splitting the workload intelligently across the SPE units. If you've got a workload split across 4-6 units it is pretty easy to combine those and split them across 3 units(ps3->360).
Doing the opposite is a pain in the ass and requires you to redo most of your optimizations.

PS3 is 1 general purpose core and a bunch of specialized cores, whereas the 360 is 3 general purpose cores. It is easier to reach a baseline on the 360, but if you're willing to invest the extra effort on the PS3 you should be able to do a bit more.

The gamble that they're making is that they'll be around long enough for the know-how to accumulate in the dev community---just like it did for PS1/PS2.

[gzsfrk]

1st party vs. 3rd party. Sony will continue to market and support Uncharted just like they have Resistance:FoM.

And how is Resistance selling these days?

Seriously--I have no idea. Is it still selling in the tens of thousands each month? I would expect it to, since it's easily one of the top 3 games for a system which is still selling over 100,000 consoles a month in the US.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://unmukts.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/youre-too-kind.jpg

;)

http://park.lib.wv.us/images/friends.jpg

[Gorvi]

;)

http://park.lib.wv.us/images/friends.jpg
http://www.realselfdefense.tv/tipsheets/tipsheet_restraining_order.gif

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.realselfdefense.tv/tipsheets/tipsheet_restraining_order.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/49/boohoo.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2291)

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/49/boohoo.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2291)
http://www.plumparty.com/Merchant2/graphics/products/large/21102.jpg

[LongStepMantis]

Get a room you two! :D

[Evil Avnovice]

Get a room you two! :D

We've got room for one more. :p

http://www.union.ufl.edu/hotel/images/Hotel-Slide.jpg

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.plumparty.com/Merchant2/graphics/products/large/21102.jpg

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ligans/ecards/sanrio/pnthanx.gif

[51|RandoM]

And how is Resistance selling these days?

I don't know either. The last real sales data I saw for it was back when they hit 2 million units and were getting around a 60% attach rate.

Sony has done a new ad campaign for the game since then, added more content, etc., so they're still supporting and pushing the game.

[Gorvi]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ligans/ecards/sanrio/pnthanx.gif
http://www.nataliedee.com/042007/bff.jpg

[Siraris]

Thanks for the backup. :)

Seriously, Siraris, we're not just reading message boards here. Go ahead, do a Google search for "PS3 development difficulties". Sure, some people say it's not a problem, but plenty of developers say it is. Are they all liars? Lazy? Sure, blame the developers.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160954

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27782

http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=31489

There's three articles I found in all of 3 seconds on Google that say that it is NOT harder to develop on PS3.

So are these people making it up? I'm sure someone will come up with some good rationalization explaining how they are, or that they are paid by Sony, or something of that sort (obviously not applicable to the people saying it IS harder to develop for).

The only people who have any idea what is harder or easier to program for, are the people working on the games. I would never say that the PS3 has better tools than the 360, as that is what Microsoft is known for, but to imply that it's some sort of magnitude harder to program for PS3 is silly. Just because something is different, doesn't necessarily mean it's harder, and just because people are set in their ways, doesn't mean that they should be able to stay that way.

This is just another chance for some people who have this sick twisted vendetta with Sony to get their rocks off on the messageboard. Jack Tretton made a completely reasonable comment about how PS3 is becoming the lead platform in order ease headaches for developers and improve quality of games for consumers. Instead of people on here saying "Wow, that's awesome!" there's this utterly ridiculous flame fest.

[the soUL TRAder]

This thread proves:

Caveman are better conmmunicators.

Also, if they start making PS3 Lead Platform, even though games are going to take a few months longer to release, and, then port it to the 360, what's left for him to say when the 360 version still plays better and has superior framerate?

[Kamalot]

Oh, wait, there weren't arguments like these floating around every other day because there was no debate as to the strengths of each console--while the Xbox could output better graphics and bells and whistles, the PS2 had more games. The second proved more important because it meant that by the law of sums and averages, the PS2 had more games with fun gameplay, as well.

Interesting now with the two consoles much more closely matched graphically and feature-wise, that rather than stick to "gameplay"-focused debates, some people choose to argue about graphics comparisons, but even further to means-to-graphics comparisons. And other nitty-gritty details as such (i.e. which brand each "advantage" belongs to). So much for the significance of "gameplay."

I almost miss the fanboys who cried "graphics don't matter!"

EDIT: I guess those fanboys are now playing on the Wii, the clear indisputable winner so far this generation. Whoops.
I like your information. May I subscribe to your newsletter?

[Johan]

Just because something is different, doesn't necessarily mean it's harder, and just because people are set in their ways, doesn't mean that they should be able to stay that way.

Actually, "different" often does mean harder, as experience typically translates into productivity in one's work, whatever that may be. Also, "set in their ways" can also be seen as a desire for a more familiar architecture, rather than the typically arcane one that Sony uses, which is I believe an intentional attempt by Sony at making their hardware the lead development architecture and killing the profitability/expedience of ports. The only reason this hasn't worked out as it did last generation is that Sony launched a year after MS and at a higher price, otherwise the PS3 may very well have done what the PS2 succeeded in doing in this regard.

[karak]

Lost+Cause=This thread

[the soUL TRAder]

Just because something is different, doesn't necessarily mean it's harder, and just because people are set in their ways, doesn't mean that they should be able to stay that way.


Sega called, asked where YOU were in 1997.
Get back to them.....ummmmkay?

[Kamalot]

Just because something is different, doesn't necessarily mean it's harder, and just because people are set in their ways, doesn't mean that they should be able to stay that way.

Exactly right. For instance, people are changing their gaming habits and embracing Wii. It sure is different, and it is motivating people to change their gaming ways.

[Siraris]

This thread proves:

Caveman are better conmmunicators.

Also, if they start making PS3 Lead Platform, even though games are going to take a few months longer to release, and, then port it to the 360, what's left for him to say when the 360 version still plays better and has superior framerate?

That's interesting, since the PS3 was the lead platform for Burnout and plays better and has a superior framerate over the 360 version. Mind boggling, isn't it?

[Johan]

PS3

360

PS3

360

PS3

360

While the Wii sells more than both, and PS3/360 owners forget that gaming should be fun, instead pissing on each other's cornflakes/cheerios/whathaveyou.

[cookyshark]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160954

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27782

http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=31489

There's three articles I found in all of 3 seconds on Google that say that it is NOT harder to develop on PS3.

So are these people making it up? I'm sure someone will come up with some good rationalization explaining how they are, or that they are paid by Sony, or something of that sort (obviously not applicable to the people saying it IS harder to develop for).

The only people who have any idea what is harder or easier to program for, are the people working on the games. I would never say that the PS3 has better tools than the 360, as that is what Microsoft is known for, but to imply that it's some sort of magnitude harder to program for PS3 is silly. Just because something is different, doesn't necessarily mean it's harder, and just because people are set in their ways, doesn't mean that they should be able to stay that way.

This is just another chance for some people who have this sick twisted vendetta with Sony to get their rocks off on the messageboard. Jack Tretton made a completely reasonable comment about how PS3 is becoming the lead platform in order ease headaches for developers and improve quality of games for consumers. Instead of people on here saying "Wow, that's awesome!" there's this utterly ridiculous flame fest.

honestly now, does the ps3forums.com reference count?:confused:

[BlackPete]

While the Wii sells more than both, and PS3/360 owners forget that gaming should be fun, instead pissing on each other's cornflakes/cheerios/whathaveyou.

Amen. Can't we all just be pro-fun and anti-bullshit, and just leave it at that? :)

[oldjadedgamer]

And how is Resistance selling these days?

Seriously--I have no idea. Is it still selling in the tens of thousands each month? I would expect it to, since it's easily one of the top 3 games for a system which is still selling over 100,000 consoles a month in the US.

According to NPD numbers in the US, since launch Resistance has sold about 780,000 units.

http://www.next-gen.biz/images/stories/npd/ltdsalesnewsonyip1107-correct.jpg

On the software side, the twin PlayStation 3 successes of Call of Duty 4 and Assassin's Creed are heartening. However, Sony's own first-party software appears to be struggling, and the results are extremely disappointing given the size of the investments.

The chart above shows the LTD sales for four of Sony's big new properties, all developed exclusively for the PlayStation 3: Resistance: Fall of Man, Heavenly Sword, LAIR, and Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. Together, sales of these titles total just over 1.2 million software units. [Note: The numbers for Resistance: Fall of Man have been updated.] If Sony were gambling that original first-party software would help sell its system during its inaugural year, it appears to have lost resoundingly. Even Sony's big sequel to a successful PlayStation 2 franchise, Ratchet & Clank Future, has sold fewer than 150,000 units so far.

(Sales of Motorstorm have been excluded here because the game is included as a pack-in with PlayStation 3 systems, which will undoubtedly skew sales, but it is worth noting because it did move almost 200,000 units in just its first month.)

Sony's dual strategy of bundling a videogame system with a high-definition movie player could prove flawed as the PlayStation 3 strives to remain relevant. Suppose for a moment that 10% of PlayStation 3 sales have been consumers seeking a quality Blu-Ray video player. Then those sales will gradually cease to supplement PlayStation 3 hardware sales as cheaper standalone Blu-Ray players drop in price. And as those Blu-Ray sales are bled off, the PlayStation 3 installed base remains inflated by consumers who are far less likely to purchase videogame software for the system.

To third-party publishers this will appear to be a faltering hardware platform whose users are less likely to purchase their software than the users for a more established system like the Xbox 360. Moreover, Sony itself must sell licensed software to make up for the loss it takes on every PlayStation 3 it sells. There are reasons to believe Sony can turn the corner (for example, a strong slate of 2008 software and some improvements in third-party relations), but lower sales of all but the most heavily promoted software makes one wonder – just as with the PSP – what all those consumers are doing with the system once they get them home.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8374&Itemid=2&limit=1&limitstart=5

[Siraris]

Actually, "different" often does mean harder, as experience typically translates into productivity in one's work, whatever that may be. Also, "set in their ways" can also be seen as a desire for a more familiar architecture, rather than the typically arcane one that Sony uses, which is I believe an intentional attempt by Sony at making their hardware the lead development architecture and killing the profitability/expedience of ports. The only reason this hasn't worked out as it did last generation is that Sony launched a year after MS and at a higher price, otherwise the PS3 may very well have done what the PS2 succeeded in doing in this regard.

It's really a null issue, as I posted 3 developers who said that it is not harder to develop on PS3.

And I think that's pretty conspiratory to think that Sony purposely makes its consoles harder to develop for so it becomes lead platform. I think that both platforms have difficulties, and Microsoft has better tools and who knows what other stopgaps they put on developers from speaking out. They could have a clause in their contract that if someone from the developer comes out and says that they are having trouble, they get fined or lose out on something. The fact is, we don't know.

Regardless, this is an absolutely ludicrous argument because this is not black and white. What does "harder" mean? People make things on the net about black and white, and NOTHING in life is black and white; there is always gray. Does harder mean that it takes a little longer in the design phase? Does harder mean it's actually more difficult to code for? Does harder refer to not as much tool support? Does harder mean that if one developer says it's hard, and another says it isn't, that it is?

It's like saying Bioshock is a 10! What does that mean? It's not a perfect game, so it doesn't deserve a 10. Because it's a 10, does that mean I will like it? Does a 10 mean that it's better than another game that got a 10, or even better than a game that got a 9? That's why review scores are a waste of time, and why making statements like something is "harder" to develop for than another system is as well.

[asimonk]

PS3

360

PS3

360

PS3

360

While the Wii sells more than both, and PS3/360 owners forget that gaming should be fun, instead pissing on each other's cornflakes/cheerios/whathaveyou.

I would agree with you except we all know that Lucky Charms are infinitely better than any of those cereals you mentioned. Which makes you obviously inferior.

[BlackPete]

And I think that's pretty conspiratory to think that Sony purposely makes its consoles harder to develop for so it becomes lead platform. I think that both platforms have difficulties, and Microsoft has better tools and who knows what other stopgaps they put on developers from speaking out. They could have a clause in their contract that if someone from the developer comes out and says that they are having trouble, they get fined or lose out on something. The fact is, we don't know.

Er... huh? Yes, there is an NDA on all SDKs (Wii, 360, PS3), but there's no such clause like that. You can speak in general terms, but don't give out specific info like SomeFuncName() is giving me trouble because it doesn't work well with XYZChip, blablabla...

Devs are able to talk about public info -- but it's usually best to not talk at all if you want your ass totally covered.

That's partly what sucks though -- sometimes there are PR speak that are pure bullshit, but I can't say why without giving specific info which violates the NDA. This applies to all platforms, not just the PS3.

[fatefodder]

That's interesting, since the PS3 was the lead platform for Burnout and plays better and has a superior framerate over the 360 version. Mind boggling, isn't it?

Sure, that's a nice example, but there are also examples where developing on the PLAYSTATION 3 does not yield a better running game. See Assassin's Creed. I'd also like to bring up Fatal Inertia as an extreme example.

Both examples open up plenty of room for speculation on how much of this falls to developer expertise, resources, and just how "easy" it is to develop on the PS3 compared to the Xbox 360.

There are other factors to consider as well--for example, the UE3 engine seemed to be having trouble actually working on the PS3 (hopefully that will end soon given the release of UT3), in which case the skill and perserverence of the developer means far less to the overall product result.

Some companies might be better at porting to or making PS3 games than others are. Until we see a uniform set of examples where PS3-lead games run better than 360 ports, all we have are a bunch of examples where the opposite logic is true. Even then, it will always be debatable how much care the port got, since Oblivion shows that a properly ported game can run better on the PS3. And even then, it's debatable how well implemented the lead platform version was, as well. So basically, there's little point in guessing at the underlying possibilities for why one port runs better than another. In short, I doubt either system is going to emerge as the clearer muscle until at least 2009, since I'm sure there will always be titles for each system being given more special attention to show off that platform's capabilities.

[Kamalot]

Regardless, this is an absolutely ludicrous argument because this is not black and white. What does "harder" mean? People make things on the net about black and white, and NOTHING in life is black and white; there is always gray. Does harder mean that it takes a little longer in the design phase? Does harder mean it's actually more difficult to code for? Does harder refer to not as much tool support? Does harder mean that if one developer says it's hard, and another says it isn't, that it is?

It's like saying Bioshock is a 10! What does that mean? It's not a perfect game, so it doesn't deserve a 10. Because it's a 10, does that mean I will like it? Does a 10 mean that it's better than another game that got a 10, or even better than a game that got a 9? That's why review scores are a waste of time, and why making statements like something is "harder" to develop for than another system is as well.
Funny. A large number of places rate games on a 10-point scale. People seem to generally understand that a 10 is a better game than a 7. There's a basic level of common sense involved.

That same level of common sense can also be employed when listening to developers talk about the difficulty of programming consoles.

This isn't rocket science. The reasons developers like Midway cite for making the PS3 development the lead platform are because of the extra problems and difficulty in dealing with the PS3. Let me take a moment and tell you that that is NOT GOOD NEWS for the PS3.

The PS3 is systemically more expensive to develop for, as across the board developers are having issues with the platform. This may not have been an issue if there was no competition for the PS3, in the same way PS2 managed to muscle developers into learning how to deal with the system. But this generation, things are very different. Both Microsoft and Nintendo are in VERY STRONG positions. If a developer does not find programming on the PS3 to be a viable business prospect, there are VERY GOOD ALTERNATIVES available.

I am sure there are individual instances where a particular team may not be having issues with the PS3, but for every article stating as such, there are multiple contrary articles, not to mention the evidence in the games themselves. There are also people who make a point to find small anomalies to Global Warming and then use them to call the whole Global Warming thing a myth. Just because it is colder in Tuscaloosa this year does not mean that the rest of the world isn't warming.

Making games is business, and successful businesses aren't into doing things the more expensive way. Unfortunately, publishers and developers don't run off my excitement, they run off cash, and unless they are making money, they aren't going to support the system. (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27232)

[fatefodder]

Actually, "different" often does mean harder, as experience typically translates into productivity in one's work, whatever that may be. Also, "set in their ways" can also be seen as a desire for a more familiar architecture, rather than the typically arcane one that Sony uses, which is I believe an intentional attempt by Sony at making their hardware the lead development architecture and killing the profitability/expedience of ports. The only reason this hasn't worked out as it did last generation is that Sony launched a year after MS and at a higher price, otherwise the PS3 may very well have done what the PS2 succeeded in doing in this regard.

While Sony clearly did hope for Cell to be the next foundation for computer programming, I doubt they planned for it to be difficult to accommodate out of some imperial demand for conformity. If anything, I think Sony would be falling over themselves in glee if Cell were a breeze to develop for, since it would probably attract more developers, rather than put them off.

[asimonk]

Sure, that's a nice example, but there are also examples where developing on the PLAYSTATION 3 does not yield a better running game. See Assassin's Creed. I'd also like to bring up Fatal Inertia as an extreme example.

Isn't Burnout the exception to the rule?

Couldn't you have just said "See every other cross platform game" instead of singling out Assassin's Creed?

Its a cheap shot, yes, but not an untrue statement. Nintendo owns us all anyways.

[51|RandoM]

Isn't Burnout the exception to the rule?

DiRT is better on PS3, too.

GTA IV is going to be the comparison to end all comparisons. Microsoft is spending millions on DLC, I wonder if Sony is spending millions on an even break. ;)

[Kamalot]

DiRT is better on PS3, too.

GTA IV is going to be the comparison to end all comparisons. Microsoft is spending millions on DLC, I wonder if Sony is spending millions on an even break. ;)

Yeah, Dirt is the other one that comes to mind. I believe the developers used the extra time between the 360 and PS3 release to polish the game, in the same way Sega polished Virtua Fighter between the PS3 and 360 releases.

[51|RandoM]

Oh hey, anybody notice that Uncharted took the #1 spot last week for PS3 game sales in the UK?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29186/UK-PS3-CHARTS-Uncharted-takes-top-spot

Makes my statement about it continuing to sell long after Assassin's Creed is forgotten seem a little less crazy, doesn't it? ;)

[asimonk]

GTA is going to be pointless. It had better be solid gold on every system and bring that level of joy that one can only get from an asian massage parlor regardless of which system is owned. The game has been delayed for, what 4, 6 months because it was a proper clusterfuck on one or both systems (I don't recall an official explanation ever being given).

But I do recall it being touted as awesome on one system and shit on the other. Both sides claiming superiority on a game not yet released. Frankly, it had better be brought up to snuff on the offending system. Then again, I think I recall various highs and lows associated with both system. So it will probably disappoint equally.

I'd google it, but I'm too proud of myself for equating a video game to prostitution to bother. I'd rather stay contained in a small world where I can happily use that metaphor.

[Kamalot]

Oh hey, anybody notice that Uncharted took the #1 spot last week for PS3 game sales in the UK?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29186/UK-PS3-CHARTS-Uncharted-takes-top-spot

Makes my statement about it continuing to sell long after Assassin's Creed is forgotten seem a little less crazy, doesn't it? ;)

Sweet!

I see this is a PS3-only chart, and that Assassin's creed just moved up the ranking as well. I can't help but wonder how many copies of Assassin's creed were sold on the 360 in the UK last week.

Wii just surpassed the 360's install base in the UK as well (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/09/13/wow_that_was_fast_wii_outsells_xbox_360.html).

[asimonk]

Oh hey, anybody notice that Uncharted took the #1 spot last week for PS3 game sales in the UK?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29186/UK-PS3-CHARTS-Uncharted-takes-top-spot

Makes my statement about it continuing to sell long after Assassin's Creed is forgotten seem a little less crazy, doesn't it? ;)

Unless people are buying multiple copies of Uncharted (which I will admit almost sells me on a PS3) just in case they want to play through it more than once, its a non issue.

AC has sold over 2.5 million copies world wide. Off the top of my head, only Halo3, Call of Duty 4 and Guitar Hero 3 have done better this year. Apparently we as gamers like sequels.

AC will live on and be sequelized until it stops selling because a publisher will always happily spend much more to more than double sales if their cow can produce milk made out of pure gold.

While Uncharted will be the new Resistance in terms of first party/exclusive poster child of the PS3, most of that is because the viable library of knockout titles is considerably smaller.

[Ink Asylum]

Oh hey, anybody notice that Uncharted took the #1 spot last week for PS3 game sales in the UK?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29186/UK-PS3-CHARTS-Uncharted-takes-top-spot

Makes my statement about it continuing to sell long after Assassin's Creed is forgotten seem a little less crazy, doesn't it? ;)

Man, I know you love Uncharted, but there are a dozen amazing games each year that never get the sales they deserve. If this were a perfect world, Rez, Ico and Beyond Good & Evil would be multi-million sellers and in everyone's library. Sadly, sometimes a good title just never takes off.

[Kamalot]

While Uncharted will be the new Resistance in terms of first party/exclusive poster child of the PS3, most of that is because the viable library of knockout titles is considerably smaller.

I think see what you are saying... that PS3 owners are buying Uncharted because they don't have the large library of exclusive titles to choose from?

[asimonk]

More of a poster child of the PS3. I have no doubt that Resistance is a good game. However, if there were more compelling or even a larger base of equally compelling titles released in the time between Resistance's debut and now, I highly doubt that you would still see such a marketing push.

[oldjadedgamer]

Oh hey, anybody notice that Uncharted took the #1 spot last week for PS3 game sales in the UK?

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29186/UK-PS3-CHARTS-Uncharted-takes-top-spot

Makes my statement about it continuing to sell long after Assassin's Creed is forgotten seem a little less crazy, doesn't it? ;)

Well, this is just for the UK alone, only includes PS3 games, doesn't show any real sales numbers (so you can't tell if Uncharted actually sold more or the other games just sold less), and according to UK folk over at GAF, Uncharted is now selling at a discounted price and being bundled with the system.

But other then that, good news to hear. I think it will sell a bit more then it has currently but not to make back the money they spent on it. I saw a link somewhere where ND said it cost them 20 million for Uncharted. Without a multiplayer or community around it, I don't see this one having legs like Resistance.

I think see what you are saying... that PS3 owners are buying Uncharted because they don't have the large library of exclusive titles to choose from?

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

[Johan]

It's really a null issue, as I posted 3 developers who said that it is not harder to develop on PS3.

I think you're confused on how persuasive three is, and what it is effective for...

http://www.tootsie.com/image-sb/licks/howmany4.jpg

Well, this is just for the UK alone, only includes PS3 games, doesn't show any real sales numbers (so you can't tell if Uncharted actually sold more or the other games just sold less), and according to UK folk over at GAF, Uncharted is now selling at a discounted price and being bundled with the system.

But other then that, good news to hear.

Hahahahahaha! I almost spit my stew all over (and it's GOOD stew, too!).

People make things on the net about black and white, and NOTHING in life is black and white; there is always gray.

EvAv is clearly black and white (with some red).

The sun is a star.

The universe is very big.

Death isn't very enjoyable.

Food is essential for human life, as is oxygen.

The Internet is a breeding ground and/or meeting place for stupidity.

Some things are black and white.

[Siraris]

I think you're confused on how persuasive three is, and what it is effective for...

http://www.tootsie.com/image-sb/licks/howmany4.jpg

Did you know that 3 is a magic number?

http://chicagoist.com/attachments/chicago_benjy/2007_09_sports_3_magic_numb.jpg

I did.

[Johan]

Did you know that 3 is a magic number?

http://chicagoist.com/attachments/chicago_benjy/2007_09_sports_3_magic_numb.jpg

I did.

I like that. You win! :D

[karak]

DiRT is better on PS3, too.

GTA IV is going to be the comparison to end all comparisons. Microsoft is spending millions on DLC, I wonder if Sony is spending millions on an even break. ;)

Man I have Dirt for both and I still think cutting out background poly's and putting them in other places is not better...but it's hard to tell. The framerate still sucks at times. I was hoping that at least would be fixed.

On the other hand, a quick google and I found over 78 pages all about the PS3 being harder to develop for. Use google, I am not going to link them here. To get even 1 where it said this was untrue I had to scroll through 7 official gamesite ones to find it...ya enough said.

However the honest truth is, if you put "time" into something its going to be good if you have skill. Extra time will have to be spent on PS3 versions of all games for the foreseeable future, this is a fact that developers agree on and have said time and again, was the only way to make the 2 versions identical or close.
We all need to take the blinders off and admit that this generation has some amazing systems with some weaknesses. BOTH Of them.
But trying to argue fact just looks foolish.

The PS3 IS harder to develop for. The 360 does have just a normal DVD drive.
Get over it.

[Gorvi]

I think see what you are saying... that PS3 owners are buying Uncharted because they don't have the large library of exclusive titles to choose from?
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
And you're implying what exactly here?

[Ink Asylum]

And you're implying what exactly here?

That if most of your console's library is either available on the 360 as well, or sucks, the few good games will sell a lot better than they normally would.

[Gorvi]

That if most of your console's library is either available on the 360 as well, or sucks, the few good games will sell a lot better than they normally would.
Actually, that was a rhetorical question, since it was pretty obvious: it was calling Uncharted mediocre. Well, unless he doesn't know the meaning of the statement.

And coming from such a staunch Wii supporter, the "few good games" comment is actually pretty funny. :rolleyes:

[Evil Avnovice]

Did someone mention lost cause? http://mazeguy.net/happy/innocent.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/thread_is_crashing.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2274)

[DangerousDaze]

Most devs are shifting their focus from PS3 to Wii and 360 as the lead sku.

Really? That is interesting. Say "hi" to them all next time you see them. You must be rolling in air miles.

[Gorvi]

Did someone mention lost cause? http://mazeguy.net/happy/innocent.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/thread_is_crashing.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2274)



http://www.fireblades.org/forums/images/smilies/threadjacker.gif



:D

[DaXIthR]

The 360 managed to outsell the PS3 by 630K worldwide for the first complete year the PS3 was on the market. Looking back at the PS2, as people are want to do, the PS3 seems an abomination, but considering the amount of dumb shit Sony has been doing since they revealed the PS3's price...that's respectable.

To stay so close to the 360 during a banner year when PS3 had so little to offer itself is not a testament to the success of the PS3 but it is one to the failure of Microsoft.

MS crappy hardware, poor support and reluctance in dropping price has hurt it for the long run, especially considering they've already blown their Halo load. Everything going right for MS and the 360 could only push 630K units more? I'm disappointed in MS.

I expect Sony to hit 30M or 35M units of hardware before MS does with their competing platforms. By that time, I think the PS3 will be lead platform for a lot of developers.

Someone shoot me. I'm starting to sound like Tretton...

[Evil Avnovice]

Sorry to ruin your moment Gorvi, but I'm getting a "FireBlades.org error" message from your pic while I'm browsing with IE7.

If I could see it myself, I could laugh with you. :o:o

[Crenor]

lol, talk about a load of crp. With the current PS3 attach rate, I expect all developers to only port after the fact to PS3. From experience in the industry and from the current trend that is what is going on for +90% of the dev's.

[Ink Asylum]

Actually, that was a rhetorical question, since it was pretty obvious: it was calling Uncharted mediocre. Well, unless he doesn't know the meaning of the statement.

And coming from such a staunch Wii supporter, the "few good games" comment is actually pretty funny. :rolleyes:

Yeah, poor me, stuck with Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Zelda, WarioWare, Trauma Center, Paper Mario, Wii Sports, Zack & Wiki, and Mario Strikers, all within one year on the market. Poor, poor me. All these exclusives, whatever will I play?

[51|RandoM]

AC has sold over 2.5 million copies world wide. Off the top of my head, only Halo3, Call of Duty 4 and Guitar Hero 3 have done better this year. Apparently we as gamers like sequels.

AC has sold over 2.5 million copies on PS3? I didn't know that.

Oh wait, it hasn't, has it? When I talk AC and Uncharted in a PS3 thread, curiously enough I'm talking about PS3 versions of those games. Uncharted will go on to sell more copies on PS3 than AC, bank on it, Sony is.

[Ink Asylum]

AC has sold over 2.5 million copies on PS3? I didn't know that.

What's your point? The whole debate started with you saying that people would be buying Uncharted in six months but not Assassin's Creed. The 2.5 million number is pulled out to argue that something that starts out popular has more of a chance of being successful in the long term that something that starts out selling poorly. If Uncharted had been released on the 360 it probably would be selling at a proportional rate to its current sales numbers. In other words, Assassin's Creed would still be selling more.

[Farsight]

Umm, yeah, I actually work on console games, unlike a certain Sony spokesman... the only reason we're even including the PS3 is because it's essentially free money to do a port to the Sony platform. The 360 is what justifies our budget, and the Wii justifies making an entirely new game (since it's hardware requires a scaled-down design)...

The PS3 is going to be the port machine this generation. There's really no avoiding it now. Sony picked Blu-Ray over games (most of their ads even lead with movies - what console does THAT?!?), now they have to suck it up and live with that.

[51|RandoM]

Sony picked Blu-Ray over games (most of their ads even lead with movies - what console does THAT?!?), now they have to suck it up and live with that.

...and they'll be having the last laugh when Warner goes exclusively Blu-Ray in the first quarter of 2008, effectively ending the format war with Blu-Ray the winner.

Call it a Trojan Horse if you want, but Troy still fell, did it not?

[Micasa]

...and they'll be having the last laugh when Warner goes exclusively Blu-Ray in the first quarter of 2008, effectively ending the format war with Blu-Ray the winner.

Call it a Trojan Horse if you want, but Troy still fell, did it not?

And does that make the Blu Ray drive cheaper, dropping the price of the PS3?

Whether or not the rumored Warner exclusivity actually happens, people that don't want to pay for a Blu Ray drive they don't want still won't be jumping up and down to buy a PS3.

[Ink Asylum]

And does that make the Blu Ray drive cheaper, dropping the price of the PS3?

Whether or not the rumored Warner exclusivity actually happens, people that don't want to pay for a Blu Ray drive they don't want still won't be jumping up and down to buy a PS3.

I refuse to switch to the Blu-Ray format until the DVDs stop coming in those stupid blue cases.

[Wolfgang]

...and they'll be having the last laugh when Warner goes exclusively Blu-Ray in the first quarter of 2008, effectively ending the format war with Blu-Ray the winner.

Call it a Trojan Horse if you want, but Troy still fell, did it not?

Which will make the PS3 an excellent Blu-Ray movie player. Doesn't make it an excellent game machine. Apples to Oranges. We are talking gaming, game development, (as you were taking on AC sales on PS3), not if the PS3 is a nice multimedia device (which it is).

If Blu-Ray does win, Sony will make money, which is what matters, but it still won't make the PS3 the most popular gaming machine.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/1/lebowskiopinion.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=897)

[Ink Asylum]

The Dude abides.

[Chainblast]

Developers should do whatever Infinity Ward did for Call of Duty 4. The game turned out awesome on both platforms.

You mean give a shit? Well, at least someone is doing it right. Right?

[Farsight]

...and they'll be having the last laugh when Warner goes exclusively Blu-Ray in the first quarter of 2008, effectively ending the format war with Blu-Ray the winner.

Call it a Trojan Horse if you want, but Troy still fell, did it not?

But they didn't destroy Sparta while building it, either...

During the PS1/PS2 era, Sony's video game division is what kept the company afloat. Now they've tossed out the bird in the hand to dive at two in the bush, they've dropped their bone into the water to try to grab the bone their reflection was holding, they shot their golden goose, -

AH! STOP ME BEFORE I PARABLE AGAIN!

Of course, there's a reason that so many parables address the same issue: because so many people DO NOT GET IT.

[Chameleo]

wow. great PR spin by jackie-boy there.

haha love it.

[Shodan2020]

Sometimes I wonder if Sony's PR writers are out striking with the rest of them. It's the only thing I can think of.

The writer's strike happened like 3 months ago.. Sony's writers have been out for at LEAST 3 years. :)

[The Ligand]

Sarcasm is one of the things that doesn't translate well into text on the internet.
Adding a ";)" or ":rolleyes:" helps convey that a little better.

If I had a nickel for every time i tried being sarcastic and failed miserably over the net, well...I'd have a shitload of nickels.

This kinda reminds me of a challenge I read in someone's sig somewhere (might even be this site). The idea was to go to the comments on a YouTube video and try writing something so ridiculous that no one could possibly take you seriously. Problem is, it can't be done.

[Wolvie]

Trust me, as long as the 360 is fighting for 1st place with Nintendo, the games will be made for the 360 first, and ported to the less important PS3. Nice try Tretton, you get 5 minutes in the corner wearing a nice cone hat.

At any rate I agree with the COD4 statement, make the multiplatform games with the console your programming for in mind. IW did that, and so is Rockstar. You simply get a better game when the developers take the time to do it right.

[Baron Samedi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/1/lebowskiopinion.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=897)

Worst fucking grammar ever. Even Thulian should be proud.

[DubiousQuality]

This thread has taught me 3 things.

1. Not only is Random pretencious but he's an idiot.
2. Gorvi isn't such a bad guy and has a sense of humor.
3. Siraris fails at reading comprehension.

[JimmyDanger]

Well - it's taught me that Dubious can't spell "pretentious".

And that there's still some fun to be had on them there Evil Avatars.

And I agree with Dubious' 3 points more or less

[DubiousQuality]

heh I knew it looked wrong when I hit submit. bleh!

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/techno_viking.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2341)

Clearly you have nothing constructive to add to the thread anymore, WDF Avnovice. http://mazeguy.net/sad/melodramatic.gif

[51|RandoM]

And does that make the Blu Ray drive cheaper, dropping the price of the PS3?

Whether or not the rumored Warner exclusivity actually happens, people that don't want to pay for a Blu Ray drive they don't want still won't be jumping up and down to buy a PS3.

It will make it cheaper as economies of scale ramp up. I don't want to pay for Live but that doesn't stop me from owning a 360 and paying for Live. You don't have to like every single feature of a product to desire that product, do you?

...and it isn't the people who don't want blu-ray who will be making the difference. They'll be left on the sidelines with their "death to blu-ray" placards as the rest of the world moves on.

If you're going to continually look at it as, "waagggghhh! I don't want blu-ray on my console" instead of, "hmm, blu-ray? This could be interesting." you're not going to get it.

The presence of Blu-Ray will be an incentive to plenty of other people, once the dust settles from the format war. Putting Blu-Ray into the PS3 helped win that war, winning that war will in turn help the PS3.

Looks like a bad idea... until it actually works.

Oh, one other thing. I don't watch Blu-Ray movies, nor do I intend to. I still am happy to have a Blu-Ray drive in the PS3. Why? Because it makes the console near-silent. That is worth paying for for me. YMMV.

[51|RandoM]

But they didn't destroy Sparta while building it, either...

During the PS1/PS2 era, Sony's video game division is what kept the company afloat. Now they've tossed out the bird in the hand to dive at two in the bush, they've dropped their bone into the water to try to grab the bone their reflection was holding, they shot their golden goose, -

AH! STOP ME BEFORE I PARABLE AGAIN!

Of course, there's a reason that so many parables address the same issue: because so many people DO NOT GET IT.

Sony has multiple Golden Geese.

The PS2 is still raking in cash. The PSP is making money too. Their TV division is doing excellent. Even Sony Pictures had a great year(I think).

...and you are right, lots of people don't get it. Fortunately them not getting it isn't going to stop the people sitting on ps2s from picking up a ps3 at some point.

It will be interesting to see what you guys say when the PS3 starts rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still not beating the Wii or the DS." Have fun with that, I know I will. ;)

[NightRain]

Fail. There's nothing to suggest that one is any more superior or inferior than the other.

Actually for developing there is.

The Xbox 360 offers a familiar, easy to develope for platform for most developers. The PS3's developement is inferior to the Xbox360 since it is more difficult to program for.

As for hardware, no one really know which is truly better.

I heard a fantastic quote to describe PS3 and Xbox 360 development. "The Xbox 360 is like a 10 gallon jug, while the PS3 is like having eleven 1 gallon jugs"

I mean is makes perfect sense, the PS3 might have a bit more when looking at the total picture but just imagine a person carrying one 10 gallon jug and another trying to carry eleven 1 gallon jugs at the same time. Who is going to have it easier?

From what I read from developers the biggest hurdle with developing for the PS3 is it's segmented memory system and high overhead for the XMB.

[51|RandoM]

When was the last console generation won by the platform that was easiest to develop for? Somebody enlighten us, I am drawing a blank.

Is it easier to develop for Wii than for 360? Hmmm.

[NightRain]

Uncharted came out in a crowded market and had less marketing than the titles that outsold it.

Six months from now people will still be buying Uncharted while Assassin's Creed will be a forgotten memory along the lines of, "Jade who?"

I don't know about where you live but I see more Uncharted commericals on TV then Assassians Creed, Mario Galaxy, and Mass Effect combined.

I see Uncharted commericals on TV at least 4-6 times a day. I maybe see the other mentioned games 1-2 times a day but sometimes not at all.

Crowded market or not the game should be able to be competitive or what was the point of releasing it. This is a game that just doesn't seem like it will ever make the developement/marketing cost back.

[NightRain]

Man, I know you love Uncharted, but there are a dozen amazing games each year that never get the sales they deserve. If this were a perfect world, Rez, Ico and Beyond Good & Evil would be multi-million sellers and in everyone's library. Sadly, sometimes a good title just never takes off.

QFT. I mean look at Psychonauts; easily one of the best overall games last generation, and the most enjoyable platformer I played last gen. Yet it sold like a turd.

[Zeal]

phantom will become the lead development platform.

[Ink Asylum]

It will make it cheaper as economies of scale ramp up. I don't want to pay for Live but that doesn't stop me from owning a 360 and paying for Live. You don't have to like every single feature of a product to desire that product, do you?

I don't want to pay for Live so.....I don't pay for Live. Sure, one or two needless features won't make me stop desiring a product, but too many will, especially if there's a simpler version available. Microsoft and Sony love talking about all the stuff they're jamming into their consoles, great, just give us the option not to have to pay for all that stuff we're not going to use. Microsoft has been pretty good about that, Sony a little less so. Sony even took out one feature a lot of people actually liked, hardware backwards compatibility.

It will be interesting to see what you guys say when the PS3 starts rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still not beating the Wii or the DS." Have fun with that, I know I will.

Most people pointing out the PS3's flaws don't honestly expect that the system will whither and die, causing Sony to drop out of the console market. They're not Sega. They have the money and resources to pour into this until it starts being moderately successful. Everyone expects the sales to pick up eventually, the question is not if, but when. How long is it going to take? How much of a lead will Nintendo and Microsoft have by that point? Will it be too little, too late?

Will the PS3 will start rolling, eventually? No doubt about it. Will it help win the format war with HD-DVD? Probably. Will it ever escape third place, let alone become the industry leader this console generation? Most likely not.

[Wolfgang]

When was the last console generation won by the platform that was easiest to develop for? Somebody enlighten us, I am drawing a blank.

Is it easier to develop for Wii than for 360? Hmmm.

PS1 won out over the Saturn and N64.

[Johan]

182 posts, and ultimately this doesn't even make a damn bit of difference to the vast, vast, vast majority of gamers.

You know what's important? Enjoy the games on the system(s) you own. If you own multiple gaming platforms, and are so inclined, read up on the variations between platforms for individual titles and get the most favorably reviewed version of that particular game. Most of them will essentially be the same damn game, and most people would never be able to tell a difference between them.

[Ink Asylum]

So what is today's arrogant corporate quote we can argue about?

[Kamalot]

It will be interesting to see what you guys say when the PS3 starts rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still not beating the Wii or the DS." Have fun with that, I know I will. ;)

When do you expect the PS3 to start rolling? I was told last year, and all this year long, that the holiday season will make or break Sony's PS3. Okay, well the holidays are upon us. We already know that Sony said March 2008 is when they will be #1 again. Is that a reasonable time frame?

Has any home console ever come from behind to dominate a generation?

[Roc Ingersol]

No-one 'ports down'.
That's just asking for a headache if you have two systems where one is clearly superior. (ignoring the question of whether that is the case, since it's irrelevant)

If it made any sense at all, people would've used the xbox as their lead platform and ported to the PS2 after. And we all know that sure as hell didn't happen.

The platform that hits the target market best will always be first for a multiplatform title.

Has any home console ever come from behind to dominate a generation?Do you want to count the Wii? Or the PS2, if you subscribe to the Dreamcast being of that generation. (I personally do, but some don't and it's really not worth the argument anymore). It can happen.

What doesn't seem to happen - is consoles pulling themselves out of a self-inflicted funk. The N64 never righted its ship. Nor did any of the expensive failures of yester-year (NeoGeo, TurboGrafx). Should the PS3 rally after its meh-tastic initial 18 months, that'd definitely be a first.

[Tohoya]

I don't think it's that absurd.

Of course, PS3 exclusives remain a retarded move. Bujt if you're putting your game on both consoles, it makes sense to put it on the one that's easiest to port from, and from what little I've heard from developers, that seems to be the PS3.

[Swiper]

It will be interesting to see what you guys say when the PS3 starts rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still not beating the Wii or the DS." Have fun with that, I know I will. ;)

Ha! It will be interesting to see what you say if the PS3 does not start rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still beating the GBA." Have fun with that. Someone should.

[oldjadedgamer]

It will be interesting to see what you guys say when the PS3 starts rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still not beating the Wii or the DS." Have fun with that, I know I will. ;)

Isn't the first step to actually beat sales of the PS2 first which to this day after a full year on the market the PS3 has never done in the US?

We need to crawl before we can walk.

[jadkins555]

Ha! It will be interesting to see what you say if the PS3 does not start rolling. I'm expecting stuff like, "well, ummm, it is still beating the GBA." Have fun with that. Someone should.

No, what will happen is 2009 will turn into the make or break year of the PS3 as various 2008 titles, like FFXIII, inevitably get delayed. A small number of exclusive titles will also get announced for release in 2009 that will further add to this mentality. "Just wait until 2009..."

[Kamalot]

No, what will happen is 2009 will turn into the make or break year of the PS3 as various 2008 titles, like FFXIII, inevitably get delayed. A small number of exclusive titles will also get announced for release in 2009 that will further add to this mentality. "Just wait until 2009..."

I have a feeling, when Nintendo and Microsoft announce and release their 2011 consoles, Sony will finally announce, "Next Gen Starts now! We say so! Developers have finally managed to tap the power of the PS3, Bluray movie sales are now a double-digit percentage of all movie sales, it has never been a better time to buy a PLAYSTATION 3. Just look at our competition, they have to release another generation of products to compete with the PLAYSTATION 3. 10 years FTW!"

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/bail_out.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2294)

Edit: Time to bail out of this thread.

[rubbishfoo]

Starcontroll2 Melee > mario party

/QFT

Loves me some SC2 supa melee.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

Isn't the first step to actually beat sales of the PS2 first which to this day after a full year on the market the PS3 has never done in the US?

We need to crawl before we can walk.That's not fair! It's already moved well ahead of the GBA. :p

[karak]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/bail_out.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2294)

I so wish that I had sound. That video deserves the full sound effect of that kids head hitting cement...being a child and made of rubber was good times.

[Ink Asylum]

I so wish that I had sound. That video deserves the full sound effect of that kids head hitting cement...being a child and made of rubber was good times.

I love how she tries to do everything except turn the handlebars.

[Kamalot]

That's not fair! It's already moved well ahead of the GBA. :p

You do realize that's because the GBA just gave the fuck up, like Obi Wan.

[karak]

I love how she tries to do everything except turn the handlebars.

..Seriously it just makes me smile. I remember the heady days of doing stupid stuff and trying everything BUT the correct thing...good times.
But just like a cat little girls always land on their....face?
HA.

[Evil Avnovice]

It makes me happy that a few people understood the "Bail Out" reference. :D

[Ink Asylum]

It makes me happy that a few people understood the "Bail Out" reference. :D

Whoops. I just like seeing kids mess up. :)

[Evil Avnovice]

Whoops. I just like seeing kids mess up. :)

It's cool. I come back first thing this morning, and the thread's still going. I figure I'd lay back and post a few silly images/gifs every now and then for today and see what happens. ;)

[Gorvi]

It's cool. I come back first thing this morning, and the thread's still going. I figure I'd lay back and post a few silly images/gifs every now and then for today and see what happens. ;)

http://www.mikesfreegifs.com/main4/funny/calvinwake.gif

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/new_thread_cat.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1895)

[the soUL TRAder]

That's interesting, since the PS3 was the lead platform for Burnout and plays better and has a superior framerate over the 360 version. Mind boggling, isn't it?


Wait till they have "finished" the PS3 version and they get time optimizing on the 360 hardware :rolleyes:.

So, howza gonna spin right round THAT?

Developers could spend an eternity in hell with the PS3 (some are saying it seems like it now), but they will never be able to get around it's weak branch prediction, which is one of the main causes of framerate drop.

360s branch prediction is much better than the PS3s, (altough they both completely suck without an instruction window) and it helps developers get around this with efficiency, where as, the PS3 architecture is built on raw power and deep channels, two things which will choke during mis predicts.

When games on the PS3 do have a smooth framerate, the truth is much the same result could be and will be done, more easily, on the 360.

And yet they are both consoles that are and will be making some great games, just one more easily than the other, it's no biggie.

[the soUL TRAder]

...and they'll be having the last laugh when Warner goes exclusively Blu-Ray in the first quarter of 2008, effectively ending the format war with Blu-Ray the winner.

Call it a Trojan Horse if you want, but Troy still fell, did it not?

Yeah, but they never lived through Betamax, their porn was all live than.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/serious_cat.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=189)

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/serious_cat.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=189)
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/-/bush_internets.jpg

[Kamalot]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/-/bush_internets.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/wj7znljpggz5.gif

[Evil Avnovice]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/-/bush_internets.jpg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/seekrit_cat.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=188)

[Chameleo]

QFT. I mean look at Psychonauts; easily one of the best overall games last generation, and the most enjoyable platformer I played last gen. Yet it sold like a turd.

better than okami and shadow and the colossus?!!?

[Chameleo]

I love how she tries to do everything except turn the handlebars.

heh, but its not hear fault, its the idiot of a father/mother that put the training wheels on so high they don't touch the ground..

"you wanna learn how to ride a bike?! HAH lets see you RIDE THIS!!"

[NightRain]

better than okami and shadow and the colossus?!!?

Shadow of the Colossus wasn't really a typical platformer. It was really just a bunch or boss fights and was a great game. Okami was also a great game, with awesome art style.

I enjoyed both very much, but both pale when compared to Psychonauts as a whole. I enjoyed the comedy aspect of Psychonauts the most and everything else just seems to "work" in that game too.

They say a picture is worth 1000 words, notice how I've literally placed Psychonauts "on top" of Okami and Shadow of the Colossus.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6779/1000955smallqu9.jpg

[Ink Asylum]

Shadow of the Colossus wasn't really a typical platformer. It was really just a bunch or boss fights and was a great game. Okami was also a great game, with awesome art style.

I enjoyed both very much, but both pale when compared to Psychonauts as a whole. I enjoyed the comedy aspect of Psychonauts the most and everything else just seems to "work" in that game too.

If I were to play game connoisseur, I would say Shadow of the Colossus and Okami are adventure games, while Psychonauts is pure platformer. After all, Okami is pretty much Zelda with a wolf, and no one would call Zelda a platformer. At least, not OOT and Twilight Princess.

[Ondo]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=160954

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27782

http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=31489

There's three articles I found in all of 3 seconds on Google that say that it is NOT harder to develop on PS3.
No, you didn't. The first article says difficulty is irrelevant, a good developer does what is needed.

The second is the only one to actually claim the PS3 isn't harder to develop for. It's pretty easy to see why most developers disagree - he's arbitrarily decided that how difficult it is to learn how to program it is unrelated to how difficult it is to program it.

The third article just claims it's not that hard to develop for. It never compares it to the 360.

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/annoy_the_dog.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2324)

[Ink Asylum]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/annoy_the_dog.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2324)

Man, that thing is freaking me out.

[Evil Avnovice]

Man, that thing is freaking me out.

How about this? http://mazeguy.net/happy/innocent.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/leonidaskidzn.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2183)

[Ink Asylum]

How about this? http://mazeguy.net/happy/innocent.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/leonidaskidzn.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2183)

Freakier without the Leonidas face.

[Evil Avnovice]

Wii Defense Force Avnovice says this thread is boring, so he'll entertain [terrify] anyone stupid enough to stick around by playing his air guitar.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/215_46e36f072adcb.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1986)

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/server.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=190)

[Ink Asylum]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/215_46e36f072adcb.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1986)

Man, I can't believe that's who's replacing Edgeworth in the new Ace Attorney saga. What a crime.

[Johan]

Even "news" threads are turning to shit. Ridiculous.

[Ink Asylum]

Even "news" threads are turning to shit. Ridiculous.

Evil Avnovice is on a thread killing spree.

[Johan]

Evil Avnovice is on a thread killing spree.

So am I, but I keep it in the ToT and P&R.

[Ink Asylum]

So am I, but I keep it in the ToT and P&R.

In his defense, he seems to be targeting threads that have devolved into circular arguments and sniping. They could be considered mercy killings.

[Zeal]

http://www.ladydragon.com/155phantom.gif
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW............

[Evil Avnovice]

Whaddya know? I turn around, and there's still some life left in this thread. http://emoticons4u.com/evil/teu42.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/BeatDeadHorse.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2307)

[Evil Avnovice]

And for the finale, my brand new [experimental] "DOOMED" pic:

http://www.cineglobe.de/forum/userpix/40_xmen_apocalypse01_1.jpg

[Chameleo]

that air-guitar guy is replacing edgeworth!??

whaaa!? goddamnit why mess with a winning forumla?! I love nick and edgey and gumshoe! even maya grew on me, and pearls i could tolerate... damn, i don't know if i'll like the new characters enough to play through it.

[Gorvi]

And for the finale, my brand new [experimental] "DOOMED" pic:

http://www.cineglobe.de/forum/userpix/40_xmen_apocalypse01_1.jpg

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/unknown-cathulhu_soul.jpg

[DubiousQuality]

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/unknown-cathulhu_soul.jpg

That...is horifying... bad Gorvi. Jesus thats all sorts of creepy.

[Ink Asylum]

http://www.ladydragon.com/155phantom.gif
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW............

I have a Phantom t-shirt from E3 that is one of my most prized pieces of gaming swag.

[Ink Asylum]

And for the finale, my brand new [experimental] "DOOMED" pic:

http://www.cineglobe.de/forum/userpix/40_xmen_apocalypse01_1.jpg

Good so far, but if you could make the white transparent as in your original "DOOM!" pic it would be even better.

[Kamalot]

Good so far, but if you could make the white transparent as in your original "DOOM!" pic it would be even better.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/DarkDoom.gif

[Ink Asylum]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/DarkDoom.gif

Perfect.

Although there's a certain MSPaint charm to the poorly removed background of the Doom pic that leaves little white borders around the image. :)

[Evil Avnovice]

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/unknown-cathulhu_soul.jpg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/shadow_cat.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=191)

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/shadow_cat.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=191)

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/xolotl-nameless_void_1.jpg

[Evil Avnovice]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/DarkDoom.gif

Thanks, Kamalot! http://mazeguy.net/happy/cloud9.gif

[Evil Avnovice]

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/xolotl-nameless_void_1.jpg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/what_the_shit.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=220)

[Gorvi]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/what_the_shit.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=220)
http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/arwedda-ur_sanity.jpg

[Evil Avnovice]

http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/arwedda-ur_sanity.jpg

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/i_is_burito.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1290)

[Ink Asylum]

For a moment I thought I was in the Caturday thread.

[Kamalot]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/DarkDoom.gif
Now animated

[karak]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/18/shadow_cat.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=191)
That last pic is the best pic I have ever seen posted to the internet. I LOVE it.

[KingGorilla]

That is totally Haggar's cat from Voltron.

[Ink Asylum]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/DarkDoom.gif
Now animated

It's animated? I'm not seeing any changes.

[Kamalot]

It's animated? I'm not seeing any changes.

Try refreshing, or clearing your cache

[Evil Avnovice]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/4/untitled-2.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1469)

[Ink Asylum]

It is now my goal not to let Evil Avnovice have the last post in this thread. The gauntlet has been thrown!

http://network2.tv/channelimg/ThreadBanger.png

[Evil Avnovice]

It is now my goal not to let Evil Avnovice have the last post in this thread. The gauntlet has been thrown!

http://network2.tv/channelimg/ThreadBanger.png

I accept your challenge, Ink Asylum. http://mazeguy.net/silly/razz.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/4/leanne5.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1465)