Activision: "It wasn't us, it was them!"

[pseudopseudo]

So remember when the story with Rock Band guitar incompatibility was that it was Activision's fault (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41170)?

In a report on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16647), it looks like Activision has come forward with a completely different story:

Activision says in a statement that, "In fact, Harmonix and its parent company MTV Games/Viacom recently declined Activision’s offer to reach an agreement that would allow the use of Guitar Hero guitar controllers with Rock Band. We have been and remain open to discussions with Harmonix and MTV Games/Viacom about the use of our technology in Rock Band. Unfortunately for Rock Band users, in this case Harmonix and MTV Games/Viacom are unwilling to discuss an agreement with Activision."

The plot thickens. I'm waiting for a third party to swoop in and finangle a guitar together that magically works for not only those, but every rhythm game... ever.

[DubiousQuality]

Way to go Vivenvision, make a jackass move and then blame the other developer for it. Holy damage control statement batman!

[Rock Bandit]

I wonder what Activision's "offer" was for Harmonix to decline it. Harmonix has been adamant about wanting 3rd party hardware to work with Rock Band. And on the 360 all GH guitars work just fine with Rock Band, it's only on the PS3 that there's incompatibility so what "agreement" was there for that system that the PS3 can't get? And to date the Rock Band guitar doesn't work with any Guitar Hero game, on any platform. Who's the one cock-blocking that move?

In a game of he-said/she-said I'm more willing to believe Harmonix' side of things.

[KingGorilla]

Once again, Sony needs to step in and end the bullshit. They have quality assurance and standards in games for a reason. All this mess is doing is hurting PS3 owners. And as if how bad Guitar Hero 3 is were not enough reason to avoid buying it. God fucking forbid MTV make some money off of selling their guitar to Rock Band users.

[holysin]

I wonder what Activision's "offer" was for Harmonix to decline it. Harmonix has been adamant about wanting 3rd party hardware to work with Rock Band. And on the 360 all GH guitars work just fine with Rock Band, it's only on the PS3 that there's incompatibility so what "agreement" was there for that system that the PS3 can't get? And to date the Rock Band guitar doesn't work with any Guitar Hero game, on any platform. Who's the one cock-blocking that move?

In a game of he-said/she-said I'm more willing to believe Harmonix' side of things.

Thats the same thing I was thinking. Activision must've come up with a bullshit offer just to say they tried.
Actually, wait a second, let's try this on for size: Activision Blizzard came up with a bullshit offer to say they tried. That sounds scary.

[Karmakin]

Prediction:This will end up in court.

I'm wondering if Red Octane/Activision doesn't have some sort of patent on this, requested licensing fees for Rock Band, and were turned down.

[Johan]

It's not a difficult issue at its core. It's about money, and thus consumers will get the shaft in the process.

Screw all of them for quibbling over pennies in the midst of a "pound-foolish" public relations fiasco. Some bean counter somewhere decided that the hit to the company on the public relations front would be inconsequential compared to the money to be made by sticking it to consumers, so here we are.

scum-bag companies.

[beefyjr]

I can't imagine that Activision is just making shit up when they say that they offered to work together. the fact that Harmonix hasn't said anything about it yet is suspicious. Maybe Harmonix was busy in development and didn't have time to follow through on it? Maybe it was just an oversight on their end that people would, you know, want to play in a full band together? Maybe they thought that people would like the Strat more than they actually did? Maybe Activision did want some kind of royalties. Who knows?

That being said, we don't know any of the details, hopefully we'll hear more about it in the next few days. People are so willing to point the finger at Activision, but the bottom line is that despite Harmonix being a good company that cares about their customers (though they didn't start talking about patching in Les Paul supprt until the internet started complaining about it, which leads me to believe that it was never part of their plan and they only changed their mind when the court of public opinion forced their hand), the fact remains that they are owned by MTV and EA is publishing the game, and neither one of those companies could give a shit about any of us.

I agree that Sony needs to sack up, start acting like the platform holder they are and mediate this shit, because it's only hurting their customers.

[bickle]

I can't imagine that Activision is just making shit up when they say that they offered to work together. the fact that Harmonix hasn't said anything about it yet is suspicious. Maybe Harmonix was busy in development and didn't have time to follow through on it?

When a company says 'an agreement', they mean money. Activision obviously 'offered' to resolve this if Harmonix coughed up some $$$. Which is bat-shit insane and Harmonx was right to not pay up.

[Heretic Machine]

Prediction:This will end up in court.

I'm wondering if Red Octane/Activision doesn't have some sort of patent on this, requested licensing fees for Rock Band, and were turned down.

I don't see how they could: Konami came up with it first.

[Ink Asylum]

When a company says 'an agreement', they mean money. Activision obviously 'offered' to resolve this if Harmonix coughed up some $$$. Which is bat-shit insane and Harmonx was right to not pay up.

Yup. That whole press statement reads like corporate speak for a ransom note. Not cool. I'm surprised Sony isn't taking a heavier hand in these dealings. Rock Band is a big property, and a big investment. Someone who is deciding which system to buy might make their decision based on how easy it is to get the full Rock Band experience. Right now, the 360 is the clear winner in that department.

[mkelehan]

I read this as Activision wanting money for the rights to use GH guitars in RB, and Harmonix just going ahead and reverse engineering the compatibility. Which is 100% legal and great. This did put Sony in a bad position, but I think they made the wrong call.

[Beelzebud]

All we need now is for one of the execs to have a cocaine overdose in a hotel room surrounded by teenage girls.

Rock on!

[Food Nipple]

Translation: We wanted to get paid and harmonix refused. It seems like Harmonix must have reverse engineered the necessary parts, which is perfectly legal. They don't owe Activision a dime.

[Heretic Machine]

Yup. That whole press statement reads like corporate speak for a ransom note. Not cool. I'm surprised Sony isn't taking a heavier hand in these dealings. Rock Band is a big property, and a big investment. Someone who is deciding which system to buy might make their decision based on how easy it is to get the full Rock Band experience. Right now, the 360 is the clear winner in that department.

The problem is that Sony doesn't have the clout to do such a thing; they're probably fairly pleased that these two titles showed up on the PS3 at all. Of course, I can't think of a time when Sony has ever stepped in and demanded standardization for peripherals either, so they may not want to. In fact, I can't think of a time when any console manufacturer has done that. They certainly should, though.

[TheBigL]

Nice headline.

[Harv]

When a company says 'an agreement', they mean money. Activision obviously 'offered' to resolve this if Harmonix coughed up some $$$. Which is bat-shit insane and Harmonx was right to not pay up.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

"Pay up bitches" is what this whole story is saying.

You may have to fight for your right to party, but if you want to use our controllers at your party then you have to pay!

[bstiff]

When a company says 'an agreement', they mean money. Activision obviously 'offered' to resolve this if Harmonix coughed up some $$$. Which is bat-shit insane and Harmonx was right to not pay up.


My thoughts exactly in the business world agreement=pay me. Sounds like activision is in damge control mode by making harmonix look like the bad guys.

[Deadend]

Translation: We wanted to get paid and harmonix refused. It seems like Harmonix must have reverse engineered the necessary parts, which is perfectly legal. They don't owe Activision a dime.

The DMCA says differently.

Which is bullshit. Sort of like how Activision is talking about an "agreement" what the hell is there to "agree" upon?

[51|RandoM]

...and Activision's offer required how many zeros after the $?

it is too late to spin this Activision. Do the right thing instead of one dick move after the next.

[KidNicarus]

I'm sick of this. I don't care whose fault it was, I want it fixed. Now.

[bickle]

The DMCA says differently.

IIRC, the DMCA would only apply if they were breaking some form of encryption.

[lockwoodx]

Activision's offer was they add nightelf mohawk character to the game or no deal.

[JazGalaxy]

I don't see how they could: Konami came up with it first.

It could still happen.

The reason Percussion Freaks never came out on a console in america is becuase MTV randomly patented the rights to a drum based video game peripheral which blocked anyone from every making a drum game in the states. (I know, it's absolutely appaling)

That's why Rock Band is co-branded by MTV.

[Sense Field]

Prediction:This will end up in court.

I'm wondering if Red Octane/Activision doesn't have some sort of patent on this, requested licensing fees for Rock Band, and were turned down.

They both License the tech from Konami. Konami did guitar freaks awhile back which is the game that GH and RB borrow tech from.

[BlueBomber]

I read this as Activision wanting money for the rights to use GH guitars in RB, and Harmonix just going ahead and reverse engineering the compatibility. Which is 100% legal and great. This did put Sony in a bad position, but I think they made the wrong call.I think they know what they did was perfectly legal, so they went running to Sony saying they're pissed instead of the courts.

Granted, I don't fully understand either the whole business OR legal aspects of the situation, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a very tough call for Sony. I mean, I doubt that they want to risk upsetting Activision and possibly breaking any ties that they may have, especially at the rate that Activision is growing into a third party powerhouse.

[Shankle Bunny]

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

"Pay up bitches" is what this whole story is saying.

You may have to fight for your right to party, but if you want to use our controllers at your party then you have to pay!

This about sums it up

[beefyjr]

When a company says 'an agreement', they mean money. Activision obviously 'offered' to resolve this if Harmonix coughed up some $$$. Which is bat-shit insane and Harmonx was right to not pay up.

That could have happened. It's very likely. But I don't know. And you don't either. I'm just saying that it's easy to point fingers despite the fact that it was obvious at launch that Harmonix weren't planning on supporting the GH3 controller (though I think they did the right thing in responding to their customers' complaints so quickly). I would assume that if Activision really did approach them about it that they would be interested in making the Rock Band guitar also work with GH3. I doubt it would be a one-way street on that.

The thing that people aren't factoring in is the massive amount of bad blood between Harmonix and Activision/Red Octane. That's really the only thing holding this patch up now. It has nothing to do with money or reverse engineering or whatever. That was an incredibly messy divorce that ended up with directly competing products, and the fact that Harmonix chose EA to publish the game is just another slap in the nuts for Activision.

So Activision could have approached Harmonix and been jerks about it. Or Harmonix could have said "Fuck you, we don't need your help" in a moment of hubris. Or maybe they wanted money. Or maybe it was something else altogether.

That being said, I don't want to diminish the fact that Activision is clearly in the wrong at this point. Harmonix are trying to do right by their customers, and Activision's bullshit sense of pride is making them look absolutely fucking terrible right now.

[J Arcane]

Yanno, I generally respect Hamronix and all, but they kind of pulled a dick mode of their own. The Rock Band guitar isn't compatible with ANYTHING else other than RB. I could be that Activision just demanded a little tit-for-tat, so that both guitars would be cross compatible.

[Rock Bandit]

I'm just saying that it's easy to point fingers despite the fact that it was obvious at launch that Harmonix weren't planning on supporting the GH3 controller (though I think they did the right thing in responding to their customers' complaints so quickly). I would assume that if Activision really did approach them about it that they would be interested in making the Rock Band guitar also work with GH3. I doubt it would be a one-way street on that.

Ah, but they do have full support for GH controllers. On the 360 and PS2 that is. So what the hell is going on over on the PS3 side of things? How did this even become an issue to begin with?

[Food Nipple]

Yanno, I generally respect Hamronix and all, but they kind of pulled a dick mode of their own. The Rock Band guitar isn't compatible with ANYTHING else other than RB. I could be that Activision just demanded a little tit-for-tat, so that both guitars would be cross compatible.

I think you're confused. Rock Band supports all guitar peripherals: the Red Octane ones as well as third party ones like The Ant Commandos. Guitar Hero III supports only the RO guitars, how is that Harmonix's fault?

[Disgustipated]

I think you're confused. Rock Band supports all guitar peripherals: the Red Octane ones as well as third party ones like The Ant Commandos. Guitar Hero III supports only the RO guitars, how is that Harmonix's fault?

He's not confused, just stupid. Big difference.

[J Arcane]

I think you're confused. Rock Band supports all guitar peripherals: the Red Octane ones as well as third party ones like The Ant Commandos. Guitar Hero III supports only the RO guitars, how is that Harmonix's fault?
The reason the TAC and RO guitars are all compatible is that they're built on an open standard. The only reason the PS3 has an issue is because of a bug in the game, hence why the other RB platforms support the GHIII guitar just fine.

The Rock Band controller does not follow that standard however, which is why it's completely useless for every other game but Rock Band.

[DubiousQuality]

Yanno, I generally respect Hamronix and all, but they kind of pulled a dick mode of their own. The Rock Band guitar isn't compatible with ANYTHING else other than RB. I could be that Activision just demanded a little tit-for-tat, so that both guitars would be cross compatible.

And as usual you have no idea what you're talking about. At least you're consistant. :rolleyes:

[oldjadedgamer]

The reason the TAC and RO guitars are all compatible is that they're built on an open standard. The only reason the PS3 has an issue is because of a bug in the game, hence why the other RB platforms support the GHIII guitar just fine.

The Rock Band controller does not follow that standard however, which is why it's completely useless for every other game but Rock Band.

If they don't follow the standard then how did Sony pass them through certification?

[J Arcane]

If they don't follow the standard then how did Sony pass them through certification?
I meant the standard for guitar controllers.

[Food Nipple]

The reason the TAC and RO guitars are all compatible is that they're built on an open standard. The only reason the PS3 has an issue is because of a bug in the game, hence why the other RB platforms support the GHIII guitar just fine.

The Rock Band controller does not follow that standard however, which is why it's completely useless for every other game but Rock Band.

If the GH standard is "open" then why does RO sue anyone who releases compatible guitars?

[J Arcane]

If the GH standard is "open" then why does RO sue anyone who releases compatible guitars?
Dude, keep up. They stopped doing that a while ago, and there's a LOT of third party guitars out now.

[Food Nipple]

You have proven several times over that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Heretic Machine]

The reason the TAC and RO guitars are all compatible is that they're built on an open standard. The only reason the PS3 has an issue is because of a bug in the game, hence why the other RB platforms support the GHIII guitar just fine.

The Rock Band controller does not follow that standard however, which is why it's completely useless for every other game but Rock Band.

But, and I could be wrong here, TAC guitars aren't supported by GHIII; this means that Activision is locking people out of their game. That is what I took from the post you were responding to.

[J Arcane]

You have proven several times over that you have no idea what you're talking about.
That's a pretty big ego you've got there. I mean, what, we're all supposed to just believe you because, what, you have the word Nipple in your handle?

Clearly that's proof enough, without having to bother with, you know, proof to the contrary or anything.

[J Arcane]

But, and I could be wrong here, TAC guitars aren't supported by GHIII; this means that Activision is locking people out of their game. That is what I took from the post you were responding to.
Ahh. I wasn't aware of this. That's pretty asspants. I'm not saying Activision is a bunch of rosy happy bunnies or anything here, I just think that both sides have kind of been cocks about the whole guitar thing.

[Xzyliac Noise]

It could still happen.

The reason Percussion Freaks never came out on a console in america is becuase MTV randomly patented the rights to a drum based video game peripheral which blocked anyone from every making a drum game in the states. (I know, it's absolutely appaling)

That's why Rock Band is co-branded by MTV.

Ummm...no. It's co-branded by MTV because they own Harmonix. And unless I'm mistaken that patent is dead.

[Disgustipated]

That's a pretty big ego you've got there. I mean, what, we're all supposed to just believe you because, what, you have the word Nipple in your handle?

Clearly that's proof enough, without having to bother with, you know, proof to the contrary or anything.

And... cut! J Arcane goes off on a tangent, trying to grasp at straws to prove Food wrong.

Take the idiot back to his cage and chain him up, he's getting too wild. :rolleyes:

[Grimmjow]

I love the fact that

1.this is hella late in the overall scheme of news and
2. some of the comments you guys are posting.

[Disgustipated]

I love the fact that

1.this is hella late in the overall scheme of news and
2. some of the comments you guys are posting.

Remember when we got drunk and jammed on plastic guitars? Well, now I've got plastic drums and I so don't need your plastic guitar anymore...

[Grimmjow]

Remember when we got drunk and jammed on plastic guitars? Well, now I've got plastic drums and I so don't need your plastic guitar anymore...

I think it was mainly you who was drunk :D

[donkeydrop]

I wonder what Activision's "offer" was for Harmonix to decline it. Harmonix has been adamant about wanting 3rd party hardware to work with Rock Band. And on the 360 all GH guitars work just fine with Rock Band, it's only on the PS3 that there's incompatibility so what "agreement" was there for that system that the PS3 can't get? And to date the Rock Band guitar doesn't work with any Guitar Hero game, on any platform. Who's the one cock-blocking that move?

In a game of he-said/she-said I'm more willing to believe Harmonix' side of things.

It's simple really;

1) Activision's software locks out other hardware, so there is no way Rock Band's controllers can work.

2) Activision's hardware on PS3 uses a non-standard protocol. When Harmonix (quite legally) made a patch to get it to work with Rock Band Activision threatened legal action and scared Sony into not releasing it. Because Microsoft makes all developers use their own proprietary wireless interface Activision could not lock their hardware from working with Rock Band on 360.

There's no question, whatever Activision proposed it certainly involved locking out 3rd party controllers, something that Harmonix has always said is against their principles. Activision/Red Octane is 100% in the wrong.

[Wolvie]

The plot thickens. I'm waiting for a third party to swoop in and finangle a guitar together that magically works for not only those, but every rhythm game... ever.

That would be the GHII guitar. :D

[KingGorilla]

Remember when we got drunk and jammed on plastic guitars? Well, now I've got plastic drums and I so don't need your plastic guitar anymore...

Kind of what I said, There are a lot of good reasons to leave Guitar Hero in the dust for Rock Band. They have obviously superior songs. And if Activision or MTV can make money off of selling guitars to rock band players, good for them. Apparently, like All music companies, they hate making easy money.

[Wolvie]

Kind of what I said, There are a lot of good reasons to leave Guitar Hero in the dust for Rock Band. They have obviously superior songs.

I sold my copy of GHIII, simply because Rock Band is all you need. Wanna rock the guitar? Play Rock Band, it does that better then any GH game. Need a change of pace? Rock the drums, or screech your way through any song with the microphone! RB kicks copious amounts of ass.

[mister_slim]

Despite their attempt at PR bullshit, Activision is still dead to me.

[KingGorilla]

Contrary to popular belief though mister_slim, it is not Activision's game. It is MTV and Red Octant's game that Neversoft was contracted to make. This is not the first time that we have seen the "owner" of the game make an idiotic money grab move. I have seen it when EA shut down mod makers despite Westwood's attempt to facilitate user created content. Or EA shutting off mod makers in Battlefield(which is just such a cluster fuck given that Battlefield was a mod to begin with).

[Chimpbot]

I think you're confused. Rock Band supports all guitar peripherals: the Red Octane ones as well as third party ones like The Ant Commandos. Guitar Hero III supports only the RO guitars, how is that Harmonix's fault?

Personally, I don't blame them for disabling The Ant Commandos' products; they're not worth the plastic they're built out of. I own their so-called Shredder and it's easily the worst controller I've ever purchased, rhythm-game controller or not. They make shitty products, period; if their controllers are being locked out, I can only praise that decision.

My attitude would be different if they actually made quality controllers.

[KingGorilla]

And to piggy back off of Food Nipple. That had slipped my mind. But Red Octane has already lost a lawsuit over this to The Ant Commandos. There were people who fought pretty hard a few years ago to open controllers up a bit.

[Rock Bandit]

It's simple really;

1) Activision's software locks out other hardware, so there is no way Rock Band's controllers can work.

2) Activision's hardware on PS3 uses a non-standard protocol. When Harmonix (quite legally) made a patch to get it to work with Rock Band Activision threatened legal action and scared Sony into not releasing it. Because Microsoft makes all developers use their own proprietary wireless interface Activision could not lock their hardware from working with Rock Band on 360.

There's no question, whatever Activision proposed it certainly involved locking out 3rd party controllers, something that Harmonix has always said is against their principles. Activision/Red Octane is 100% in the wrong.

Thank you, that clears up a lot of questions I had.

And Wolvie's right, I haven't touched my copy of GHIII since Rock Band came out. I have however thrown in GHII a couple of times since then though. I find the note chart and song selections to be a lot better (along with the ability to play as the king of cool, Clive Winston). I really don't see me buying GHIV next year, which is good because I'm going to need that extra money to keep up with Rock Band's weekly DLC.

[KingGorilla]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20071217.jpg

[eppythacher]

From http://arstechnica.com:

rrmills
Recreation of conversation leading to this press release:

Harmonix: We want GH3 controllers to work in RB.
Activision: OK, give us teh mad monies first. $$$
Harmonix: No, how about we just do it for free.
Activision: LOLz suck it.
Harmonix: <puts out statement about Activision blocking patch>
Activision: Waaaah.

[apologiesplz]

I still feel worse for the Wii GH3 owners. I mean, a music game in mono? That's retarded. As for GH3 for the 360, it still has appeal. The guitar that comes with can serve as a bass guiter for Rock Band and the songs are more difficult than the ridiculously easy guitar songs for RB.

[mister_slim]

Contrary to popular belief though mister_slim, it is not Activision's game. It is MTV and Red Octant's game that Neversoft was contracted to make. This is not the first time that we have seen the "owner" of the game make an idiotic money grab move. I have seen it when EA shut down mod makers despite Westwood's attempt to facilitate user created content. Or EA shutting off mod makers in Battlefield(which is just such a cluster fuck given that Battlefield was a mod to begin with).

Activision owns Red Octane. MTV had no involvement in GHIII, they own Harmonix and publish Rock Band. I wouldn't be surprised if Red Octane was responsible for blocking the patch, as they've tried similar things before, but ultimately Red Octane is Activision.

[KingGorilla]

The divorce was so sloppy that even a super fan like me can get confused. Like most children I wonder if it was all my fault.

I would like to add that my point about how Red Octane already lost a lawsuit over guitars is still genius.

[beefyjr]

I wanted to say that now that Activision has straight up admitted to wanting money for their controller to work with the PS3 Rock Band, I'd like to revise my previous fence-sitting position and say "fuck those guys."

[ResistanceAddict]

And as if how bad Guitar Hero 3 is were not enough reason to avoid buying it.

I LOLed...