PSM: "The PS3 hard drive will not be used for games"

[Red Cloak]

"There were plenty of moans heard when Sony started talking about an add-on hard disk drive for PS3. We all know how well the PS2 HDD did. Still, there will be a micro HDD released for PS3 at some point in time. The first capacity being pitched is 80 gigabytes, but developers are being told it won't be for use with games. Instead, Sony is planning to use it as pure storage; you'll do things like put downloaded movies on it, copy MP3s to it, and store your digital photos on it. Then, using the PS3's network hub capability, be able to watch/listen to it all on any capable device hooked up to your home network, like a PC, PSP or even another PS3."
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=631&Itemid=2

On a related note, Enchant Arm's developer Masanori Takeuchi says that almost all X360 games will utilize the hard drive for caching and this is "something that Microsoft is taking seriously."

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/638/638323p1.html

[Varsity]

I hate to do this, but...

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4077

[Red Cloak]

Same link, different headline/content. ;)

[beerbaronstatic]

Who cares about a hard drive when I have the Sony Boomerang to keep me busy! oh crap... thats the controller :P

[jeffool]

No matter how bad the controllers are, the jokes are worse. And like the controllers, the jokes keep coming back.

*rimshot*

[kokyunage]

Well, I'm definitely not going to be buying a PS3 now. After the unique and shockingly often usage of the hard drive the Xbox had, I could never live without one. Oh, wait, never mind.

[Atorak]

Just wait till the X360 price comes out in 2 weeks.

Yikes.

[Reanimated]

Well, I'm definitely not going to be buying a PS3 now. After the unique and shockingly often usage of the hard drive the Xbox had, I could never live without one. Oh, wait, never mind.





Wooks wike somebody nevew got any downwoadabew content. :(




ANYWAY, it looks like MS is really taking the online space to the next level by really using the hard drive. This time around, not only will we get developer created content, but users are going to be able to create and trade their own content via microtransactions. Damn cool if you ask me. Not having any artistic talent myself has kept me from having any of these kick-ass cars that people have been creating in Forza. I'm really excited about having a way to get that kind of user-created stuff for myself on the 360. Not to mention maps for games that come with editors (like TS2), and all kinds of other stuff.

It looks like there might be a dumbed down version of this for PS3, but they're going to want you to buy their hundred dollar memory stick or hard drive... and, as mentioned, we all saw how well the "add-on" HDD did on the PS2.

[kokyunage]

Although, I have to say if any game manages somewhow to create a modscene with new user created maps that would be ultra cool. Especially if they incorporate automatic downloading/syncing.

The problem with downloadable content is that only a handful of games released stuff. However, that might change with the new Live free silver package.

[Reanimated]

Although, I have to say if any game manages somewhow to create a modscene w/ new user created maps that would be ultra cool. Especially if they incorporate automatic downloading/syncing.



Yeah... Timesplitters 2 for the Xbox already has that... That kind of stuff will only become more common on the 360.

[Reanimated]

The problem with downloadable content is that only a handful of games released stuff. However, that might change with the new Live free silver package.




Apparently you haven't been keeping up. Almost all of the MS and Ubi Soft games have had 2 or 3 DLC packs each. Not to mention the user created maps for TS2, and there are a bunch of other games that have had downloads like Unreal...

[Kelegacy]

I'm beginning to anticipate the Xbox2 more than the PS3...which is atypical for me. I'm traditionally a Sony supporter. Hopefully lack of HDD and no really mentioned killer online component are just small roadbumps for a completely incredible system. I'll reserve judgement until both Sony and Microsoft's testicles lay on the table, ready for my inspection.

[EvilBob46]

Pity about the lack of a HD as a standard, but when it comes to cashing data and reducing loading times...

It's my understanding that the data access speed of a Blue Ray drive will be at least twice that of a regular DVD drive, which would...translate...into shorter loading times by default?

[Reanimated]

Actually, I count 40 games with downloadable content available.

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/live/downloads/a-m.htm


That's a sizeable chunk of Live playable games with DLC. Looks like a little less than half.

[Zanzibar]

I'll reserve judgement until both Sony and Microsoft's testicles lay on the table, ready for my inspection.

Really, really could have done without that visual. Yargh.

[Dirty Harry]

Actually, I count 40 games with downloadable content available.

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/live/downloads/a-m.htm


That's a sizeable chunk of Live playable games with DLC. Looks like a little less than half.
and how many games are for xbox as it stands, then just make a small pie chart to explain that cached games only account for 12 percent of all xbox games. All im trying to say is games that use the caching of hardrives are the minority and we all have seen minority report.

[Zanzibar]

Am I really witnessing people bitching about the Hard Drive for Xbox being unimportant?

How many memory cards was I required to buy? Oh yeah, that's right, none. 50+ Xbox games with savegames on my HDD; I could go back and play any of them that I wanted to.

How many custom soundtracks did I put on that HDD? Many. My GTA3 soundtrack kicked major ass.

How much shorter were the load times for Xbox games than PS2 games? Quite a bit. Halo had pretty goddamned large levels and there was only a bit of hesitation (half a second or so) as it cached from the HDD. Would have been DAMNED annoying to stop the game for 10 seconds to load the next segment from the DVD.

Hard drives are the way to go. Anyone who posts that they can't see the usefulness of one has an agenda.

[netcraazzy]

Well, I'm definitely not going to be buying a PS3 now. After the unique and shockingly often usage of the hard drive the Xbox had, I could never live without one. Oh, wait, never mind.

At first I thought you were just being honest. You do realize that the way the xbox uses the harddrive is unique in the console world, and shockingly, it is used quite often to cache game data.

[rein]

Downloadable content is possible on other types of media. Even the PS2 has a version of EQ that required patches and updates. Memory options are going to be so much bigger than the 8mb limit on the PS2 memory cards. The question is how much money will need to be spent on these other memory options. I do not want to chose between using my memory card for the psp or downloadable content on the PS3. I sure the hell do not want to buy serveral memory stick duos either.... ..stupid Sony.

[president_fred]

I think this must all be lost in translation and sony will turn around soon and go "haha we tricked you, fuck you!" and we will laugh and say "Oh... Sony, you braggard." then sony will promise to stop drinking, beating us and cheating on us and we will take him back because thats who we are.

[Red Cloak]

Pity about the lack of a HD as a standard, but when it comes to cashing data and reducing loading times...

It's my understanding that the data access speed of a Blue Ray drive will be at least twice that of a regular DVD drive, which would...translate...into shorter loading times by default?

Actually a 1 speed Blueray drive is a forth as fast as the X360 12X DVD drive. So if Sony wants to at least match the X360's disk speed, it will need to put in a very expensive 4X Blueray. And that will still not fix the fact that it has no hard drive included. Load times will still be an issue, and so will large streaming worlds.

[Bone]

Maybe it was lost in translation, and they meant to say "The PS3 will not be used for games". Along with "The PS3 is not for households!" and "The PS3 will be expensive, you cannot afford one, stupid American!"

Ahh, the joys of Engrish.

[XenonCJ]

Am I really witnessing people bitching about the Hard Drive for Xbox being unimportant?

How many memory cards was I required to buy? Oh yeah, that's right, none. 50+ Xbox games with savegames on my HDD; I could go back and play any of them that I wanted to.

How many custom soundtracks did I put on that HDD? Many. My GTA3 soundtrack kicked major ass.

How much shorter were the load times for Xbox games than PS2 games? Quite a bit. Halo had pretty goddamned large levels and there was only a bit of hesitation (half a second or so) as it cached from the HDD. Would have been DAMNED annoying to stop the game for 10 seconds to load the next segment from the DVD.

Hard drives are the way to go. Anyone who posts that they can't see the usefulness of one has an agenda.So say we all...

[Ernst_Jager]

Sony can't kick themselves in the ass fast enough it seems.

[Red Cloak]

Halo 2 for instance culd not have been done without a hard drive. I'm not talking about the downloadble mulitplayer maps even. The level after landing ont he Halo was one continuous experience that was streamed off the harddrive. The entire experience was streamed with no loadtimes.

[Furious Wang]

Downloadable content is possible on other types of media. Even the PS2 has a version of EQ that required patches and updates. Memory options are going to be so much bigger than the 8mb limit on the PS2 memory cards. The question is how much money will need to be spent on these other memory options. I do not want to chose between using my memory card for the psp or downloadable content on the PS3. I sure the hell do not want to buy serveral memory stick duos either.... ..stupid Sony.

I think the PS2 EQ required the harddrive. Not certain though.

Also, why on Earth would Sony release something as tremendously versatile as a harddrive and then limit its usability? Where's the logic? Clearly the agenda is to milk you for cash by forcing you to buy a mem stick and hard drive.

And again, I may be wrong, but wasn't the "network hub" feature cut from the PS3 like a month after E3 because it was too expensive? Have I missed something?

[Reanimated]

So say we all...



So say we all.


BTW, I LOVE that show. :D


All great points from Zanzibar. Anyone that denies the usefulness of a built in HDD is either an idiot or has an agenda.

[Cyrano]

Actually a 1 speed Blueray drive is a forth as fast as the X360 12X DVD drive. So if Sony wants to at least match the X360's disk speed, it will need to put in a very expensive 4X Blueray. And that will still not fix the fact that it has no hard drive included. Load times will still be an issue, and so will large streaming worlds.


Who started this 1/4 speed rumor? Someone debunked that on another thread here. It's just not right. A 1x Blu-ray drive is considerably faster than a 12x DVD drive. I don't feel like Googling the data now, but it's really easy to find.

[mister_slim]

So how well will these 360 games work without the hard drive connected?

[Red Cloak]

Who started this 1/4 speed rumor? Someone debunked that on another thread here. It's just not right. A 1x Blu-ray drive is considerably faster than a 12x DVD drive. I don't feel like Googling the data now, but it's really easy to find.

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/

Check for yourself, A 4X Blueray will be needed to match a 12X DVD.

[Dracula-X]

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/

Check for yourself, A 4X Blueray will be needed to match a 12X DVD.
here we go again. The official specs from various sources as they stand (to quote once again)
CD-ROM: 32x (4.92 Mb/s) (CAV)
DVD-ROM (Single): 12x (16 Mb/s) (CAV)
DVD-ROM (Dual): 8x (11 Mb/s) (CAV)
HD-DVD (Single): 1x (36.55 Mb/s) (HD-DVD 1.0 spec)
BD-ROM (Single): 1x (54 Mb/s) (BD-ROM 1.0 spec)

Even the link you posted corroborates these numbers, so do other sites like arstechnica, tom's hardware, etc etc ad-fucking-nauseum. Conclusion: 1x BD-ROM is 3 to 5 times faster than a 12x DVD-ROM. Suggestion: try actually reading.

[NACIONAL]

So how well will these 360 games work without the hard drive connected?

Why you would disconnect your disk???, except for putting a hgher storage disk????... and I think that if that situation is possible, welll... maybe they could implement something like:

if drive_conected() = true then
stream_game_to_HD()
else
load_game_from_disk()
end if

well.... that was stupid.. but what the heck.

[Kelegacy]

Why you would disconnect your disk???, except for putting a hgher storage disk????... and I think that if that situation is possible, welll... maybe they could implement something like:

if drive_conected() = true then
stream_game_to_HD()
else
load_game_from_disk()
end if

well.... that was stupid.. but what the heck.

I think he was kidding. Meaning, a game's a game...without or without a HDD they are still playable. I personally love my XB HDD, so I was a little taken aback when i heard I'd need to buy a PS3 AND an expensive (meaning more than 1 dollar to me) memory card. What a bunch of hooey.

[mister_slim]

Why you would disconnect your disk???, except for putting a hgher storage disk????... and I think that if that situation is possible, welll... maybe they could implement something like:
Well, I seem to remember MS stating that games could not require the hard drive. Since they've mentioned people being able to detach the drive and take it along when visiting friends, and game consoles are frequently used by more than one person, I'm curious as to how this will work out.

[bobbler]

here we go again. The official specs from various sources as they stand (to quote once again)
CD-ROM: 32x (4.92 Mb/s) (CAV)
DVD-ROM (Single): 12x (16 Mb/s) (CAV)
DVD-ROM (Dual): 8x (11 Mb/s) (CAV)
HD-DVD (Single): 1x (36.55 Mb/s) (HD-DVD 1.0 spec)
BD-ROM (Single): 1x (54 Mb/s) (BD-ROM 1.0 spec)

Even the link you posted corroborates these numbers, so do other sites like arstechnica, tom's hardware, etc etc ad-fucking-nauseum. Conclusion: 1x BD-ROM is 3 to 5 times faster than a 12x DVD-ROM. Suggestion: try actually reading.

Not to be picky, but the CD-ROM and DVD-ROM speeds listed are actually in MB (bytes) and the HD-DVD/BD-ROM are in Mb(bits). It would actually take a 2.5x BD-ROM drive to match a 12x DVD drive in transfer speeds. I'm not sure how improved seek times are on BD -- transfer rates aren't the main concern actually, its seek times. Thats why some games have zero load times and others have very long load times on the same system -- some developers take the time to make sure the disc is accessable in a way that reduces seek times down to almost nothing. In the same vein, you can bet the PS3 will have a 12-16x DVD drive also, and most PS3 games will be using DVD so it won't matter much (I have a feeling only a fraction of the total games for PS3 will end up using blu-ray -- especially the first half of the generation).


Also more on topic: I'd be willing to put money on the fact that you'll be able to save your games to an HDD if you have it. Call it a hunch. What you can do with an HDD on the Xbox360 you'll be able to on the PS3 (if a game wanted to use the HDD it can, but since HDD's apparently aren't standard you won't be seeing many of them require or use it for caching -- maybe just MMOs). It isn't as if Sony is telling the dev's they can't touch the HDD if they find the user has one. PSM isn't exactly the most trustworthy source of valid information... They'll write whatever, and poorly at that (misconstruing what devs say and what things mean is common practice at PSM -- maybe EvAv readers write for PSM!).

[Furious Wang]

Yeah, Bobbler's right. A 12x Dvd Rom is something like 132.8 Mb/s max. 8 bits to a Byte and all that. A 1x BlueRay drive is significantly slower. b != B

As far as 360's Hard Drive, I imagine Microsoft just doesn't want to see games with message screens like "Error. Where's your piking hard drive? Game inoperable." Instead you'll probably see a screen that says "Warning! Harddrive not attached. You won't be able to save your game to it. Continue Anyway?" similar to what happens when you play a PS2 game with no memory cards in the slot.

[Cyrano]

OK. I can guess where the 1/4 number came from. 1x DVD = 11.1 Mbps, so 12x DVD = 132.2 Mbps. 1x Blu-ray = 54 Mbps. So, 12x DVD is about 2.5 times faster than Blu-ray, not 4 times faster. However, there wouldn't be a 2.5x Blu-ray spec, so it would take a 4x Blu-ray to overtake the 12x DVD.

[bobbler]

Cyrano, that isn't really true.

Disc speeds don't need to go in factors of two, they just have most of the time. Anyone remember the old CD-ROM drives (3x,5x, etc) and old DVD-ROM drives which were fractional speeds (2.4x is the most current example for DVD -- burn speed of 2.4x on dual layers)?

They can just as easily make a 2.5x BD drive as a 2x or 3x. I'll put my money on a 2.4x (or 2x) BD-ROM and a 12x DVD drive in the PS3.

[Cyrano]

It was just a guess as to where the 1/4 as fast number came from. If you're right, bobbler, then someone did really just pull the 1/4 number out of his ass.

[Dracula-X]

Not to be picky, but the CD-ROM and DVD-ROM speeds listed are actually in MB (bytes) and the HD-DVD/BD-ROM are in Mb(bits).
You're absolutely right, bobbler. The place I nabbed the cd/dvd specs from had it listed as 'Mbps' however, and I never thought to double check these. A 1x dvd is spec'd to put out 1350 KBps, so it works out that a 12x dvd should put out 15.82 MBps (or 126.56 Mbps). BUT most CD/DVD drives these days are CAVs (constant angular velocity), they reach their maximum yields at the outer disc only - you can expect about 50%-70% of the maximum nominated speed, on average (not that it makes much difference). Seek times also influence things as you mentioned, and we'll have to see how they stack up in the PS3.

Apologies to RedCloak if I came on too strongly, but a 12x dvd is only 2.3 times faster than a 1x BD-ROM (on paper, anyway). And I'd wager we wouldn't be seeing much BDs, if any, for a while anwyays :) The PS3 should stack up comparably on the DVD side.

[bobbler]

It was just a guess as to where the 1/4 as fast number came from. If you're right, bobbler, then someone did really just pull the 1/4 number out of his ass.

It came from the fact that write speed of BD is highly publicized along with read speeds (which caused some confusion) -- Blu-ray is really pushing writing as part of the usefulness of Blu-ray. Write speed of Blu-ray is 36Mb/s for 1x, read speed is 54Mb/s. If you go buy write speed and compare it to a 12x DVDs read speed, then it is actually almost exactly 1/4th the speed.

[MrMeatshake]

Well, I seem to remember MS stating that games could not require the hard drive. Since they've mentioned people being able to detach the drive and take it along when visiting friends, and game consoles are frequently used by more than one person, I'm curious as to how this will work out.

why not give people something and then make the decision not to use it to it's full potential? that sounds like a good idea. what idiots.

that said, what was up with there not being a simple caching module that people could just add to thier games when they'd converted them to xbox. i loved burnout 3, but wtf it had the exact same load times as the PS2 version!? oh, and don't even get me started on fucking forza.

[TRiLoGY]

why not give people something and then make the decision not to use it to it's full potential? that sounds like a good idea. what idiots.

Yeah.. I use a Console to play Games.. Not to use as a Media Centre... Whats the point of adding a HD If you cant use it with Games? (Which IMHO Is what a Games Console is for.... Games!)

But then again, I guess the HD is optional, So I dont have to get one, and seen as it wont be used by games, I wont have to spend as much money on the Console.

[MrMeatshake]

But then again, I guess the HD is optional, So I dont have to get one, and seen as it wont be used by games, I wont have to spend as much money on the Console.

which means everyone (75%+) will make the same decision, which means there won't be a critical mass to make it worthwhile actually providing functions for this, which means the HDD extention idea is pretty much DOA IMHO.

[Goronmon]

Its interesting. The more I hear about the PS3, the less interested I seem to feel towards it. I guess its all the "Its not just a console" crap thats being pushed around.