Deus Ex 3 Announced [Archive]

Gorvi

11-26-2007, 08:43 AM

Eidos has announced today that the third game in the Dues Ex series is currently in development. The game is just past the concept stage, so it should still be a good ways off yet. From Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16365):
Developer-publisher Eidos has revealed that its new studio in Montreal, Québec, first announced earlier this year, has opened its doors to the public, and the company is inaugurating the facility with the announcement of its first project: a third installment of the futuristic first person-shooter/RPG Deus Ex.
No platform was announced, but it's safe to assume that it will at least be released for the PC, with a console version likely as well.

A lot of people were fairly disappointed with the 2nd Deus Ex game, hopefully this will be a return to form from the series.

CrashCart

11-26-2007, 08:51 AM

A lot of people were fairly disappointed with the 2nd Deus Ex game, hopefull this will be a return to form from the series.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Maybe I should try Deus Ex 2 again now that my rig is a bit more capable. Part of my disappointment probably came from how shitty the sequel ran. I don't know that I gave it a fair shake since it was basically unplayable on my PC. The original was excellent, though.

Itchyeyes

11-26-2007, 08:52 AM

I didn't think Invisible War was all that bad in and of itself, just disappointing when viewed in comparison with the original Deus Ex. Two things that definitely need to be addressed from IW would be larger environments and a deeper leveling system. Making it less console centric would be nice too. Here's hoping the third game will be a return to form.

TempestBlayze

11-26-2007, 08:52 AM

Deus Ex is still my favorite game of all time. We know for certain Warren Spectre is not going to have a hand in part 3.

Whoever is the lead designer on this has got big shoes to fill.

I hope to god that they do not "consolelize" this game like they did with Deus Ex 2 invisible wars. In my opinion that is one of the big killers of the game. We need more choices and more freedom.

This game had the potential to be an awesome open ended game with all the tech that is out there. Lets hope it lives up to Deus Ex 1.

axion

11-26-2007, 08:54 AM

I thought this was already known months (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/789/789358p1.html) ago? Either way, it's awesome news, as long as they try to make it more like Deux Ex 1 than IW. I enjoyed IW myself, however it did not really stand out as the next Deux Ex. It didn't live up to it's predecessor.

[Jez]

11-26-2007, 08:57 AM

As long as they dump the shitty console influences that dragged Deus Ex 2 down I'll probably love it

Flatpicker

11-26-2007, 09:00 AM

Deus Ex without Warren. No thanks. Let it go.
Bring back Kain instead.

Norse

11-26-2007, 09:02 AM

I loved Deus Ex, it's actually one of my all time favorites. Deus Ex had an excellent story, characters and a great atmosphere. The locations where the game took place was also superb. Deus Ex 2 disappointed me in these areas. It wasn't a bad game, but it was far from Deus Ex quality.

I would compare Deus Ex with System Shock 2 in terms of gameplay. I predict that they will take the Bioshock route and make it more like an FPS. I hope I'm wrong since I don't think the Deus Ex universe translates well into a pure FPS:

Codicier

11-26-2007, 09:07 AM

Ok guys. Forget everything about Deus Ex 2.

Alright? Good.

Now, base everything you're making for 3 on the original, make it better/add more and you'll be fine.

KidNicarus

11-26-2007, 09:08 AM

So it has been confirmed that Warren Spector has nothing to do with this? Considering the slow decline that Edios has been having don't expect anything great. It's a shame, the original Deus Ex was in my opinion one of the greatest pc games ever released.

What is he doing now anyway?

YoungAlCapone

11-26-2007, 09:10 AM

Deus Ex is by far my favorite game ever, I have played through it many multiple times and all of my friends are reluctant to even mention the game as I won't stop once I have been started on it.

Invisible War was also really good, and only all that bad when compared with the first one.

Without Warren Spector at the helm I am very reluctant to get excited about this, but am going to anyway.

Stormwatcher

11-26-2007, 09:12 AM

IW was not a bad game at all. It was pretty good.

but it didn't live up to DX. DX is fucking awesome. I hope they fix the mistakes they made in IW, like stupidly small levels with lots of long load times (thanks a lot, Xbox), the crappy ugly and useless interface (thanks again, Xbox), the smaller deegree in freedom (thanks once more, Xbox) and the buggy engine.

But really, IW wasn't that bad. I might even finish it one day.

Johan

11-26-2007, 09:13 AM

As primarily a console gamer, I think the concern that this game could be "consoleized" are legitimate. There are certain games that I believe are much deeper and more enjoyable on computer, including RTSs and RPGs, as well as some of the more mod-friendly FPSs like UT and the like.

The different platforms ultimately have differing strengths and weakness for each gamer and for the developers as well...making a title that is equally strong on several different platforms is incredibly difficult in those three genres, in my opinion, and generally leads to one slice of the market feeling ripped off or disappointed.

YoungAlCapone

11-26-2007, 09:13 AM

I predict that they will take the Bioshock route and make it more like an FPS. I hope I'm wrong since I don't think the Deus Ex universe translates well into a pure FPS:

That would be a serious shame, and I would be incredibly dissapointed if they did that. They sort of did that with Project Snowblind, which I enjoyed, but for different reasons than I enjoyed Deus Ex.

Deus Ex was never about the combat, so really it would be missing the point. Violence was a means to an end, but almost never the only one, and almost always the least desirable way to go about something.

KingGorilla

11-26-2007, 09:16 AM

GunnyMo

11-26-2007, 09:17 AM

My only complaints about #2 were the incredibly tiny levels and the unified ammo. Ammo management was one of the great pluses of the first one and the expansive levels were great. If they can fix those two issues I think #3 should be excellent.

tenchiker

11-26-2007, 09:26 AM

I'd say this game has only about a 10% chance of being good. I'll have zero expectations for it till it comes out.

51|RandoM

11-26-2007, 09:28 AM

What is the lead platform?

Game was announced in an interview back in May.

mastergeo7

11-26-2007, 09:31 AM

baz

11-26-2007, 09:32 AM

In the same boat with a lot of people here with DX being one of my all time favourites, and IW being good but just not in the same league as the original.

I'm hopeful, I think the quality of games has actually stepped up over the last 1/2 years after a dip in form, so bring on DX3.

Norse

11-26-2007, 09:34 AM

What is the lead platform?

Probably the Wii or the DS

LongStepMantis

11-26-2007, 09:38 AM

I feel 2 things from this announcement.
Excitement and skepticism.

They already broke my heart with DX2, they better not disappoint on this one. :D

NeuroMan42

11-26-2007, 09:39 AM

Why?

I mean seriously.

LongStepMantis

11-26-2007, 09:43 AM

Why?

I mean seriously.

Probably because the original is one of the all-time best PC games.

Too bad the second one was...not so much.

YoungAlCapone

11-26-2007, 09:46 AM

Ahhh great... Now they will make the same thing they did with Bioshock (a pretty cool game IMHO), they will take a working formula (system shock 2), dumb it down (for the consoles). And everyone will be happy.

I hope this will not be the income.

That is what I am super worried about. Them taking all of the ideas but dumbing them down to fit better into an action game and in the process missing the whole point.

Metal Jesus

11-26-2007, 09:54 AM

I actually enjoyed Deus Ex 2 quite a bit...but it didn't hold up to the CLASSIC ORIGINAL. My main beefs were the cramped level designs and the story was weaker.

KingGorilla

11-26-2007, 09:56 AM

Why?

I mean seriously.

Eidos will not rest until they destroy every one of their IPs.

01010

11-26-2007, 10:11 AM

Please, just get rid the unified ammo and I'll be happy.

WastelandDan

11-26-2007, 10:12 AM

A lot of people were fairly disappointed with the 2nd Deus Ex game, hopefully this will be a return to form from the series.

Invisible War was an abomination and to this day I believe it's the worst game I've ever played. When Warren Specter said if he was going to fail he wanted to fail spectacularly he must have been speaking specifically about Invisible War. If they want to get me back as a fan they'd do well to make Deus Ex 3 the direct sequel to Deus Ex and pretend Invisible War never happened.

YoungAlCapone

11-26-2007, 10:15 AM

Invisible War was an abomination and to this day I believe it's the worst game I've ever played. When Warren Specter said if he was going to fail he wanted to fail spectacularly he must have been speaking specifically about Invisible War. If they want to get me back as a fan they'd do well to make Deus Ex 3 the direct sequel to Deus Ex and pretend Invisible War never happened.

You honestly believe it is the worst game you have ever played?

Either you are delusional or you have had uncanny luck with trying new games. It was definitely a dissapointment, but to call it the worst game you have ever played must be hyperbole.

WastelandDan

11-26-2007, 10:22 AM

You honestly believe it is the worst game you have ever played?

Either you are delusional or you have had uncanny luck with trying new games. It was definitely a dissapointment, but to call it the worst game you have ever played must be hyperbole.

I've played a lot of bad games, but no game to me was as bad as Invisible War. I even played both of those Shadowman games for the N64 that had a soundtrack that sounded like it was made by smashing trashcans together.

When IW launched for the PC it literally would not run for about 80 percent of the people who purchased it due to technical errors. In fact, a large number of people had the game restart their computers whenever they tried to launch it. I myself, using a brand new smoking system at the time, was completely unable to run it at anything more then 10 to 15 frames per second, and a patch wasn't released until about three weeks after launch. Combine that with incredibly poor design decisions, bad plot decisions, a destruction of the character of JC Denton and what was overall one of the worst sequels ever made, and to me it was the single worst game I've ever played. It was the worst in execution, it was the worst in design, and it was the worst in expectations. It was a shallow mess that they should have been embarassed to have published and I've never forgiven them for it.

Atepsflame

11-26-2007, 10:25 AM

Cautious optimism here too. Hopefully it will actually be a full-fledged Deus Ex game not just turn into something else like what happened with Project Snowbound.

WastelandDan

11-26-2007, 10:33 AM

You honestly believe it is the worst game you have ever played?

Either you are delusional or you have had uncanny luck with trying new games. It was definitely a dissapointment, but to call it the worst game you have ever played must be hyperbole.

I feel like I should make an additional comment: notice that I said that it was the worst game I've ever played, not the worst game ever made. Everybody who games knows this is an expensive hobby, and I try to be careful about what I purchase so I rarely end up buying something that's truly awful. I check reviews, I read this website and others, and I generally have a good grasp of what to expect from a game though.

IW for me is the worst I've ever played not just because it was such a huge failure compared to Deux Ex, one of my favorite games of all time, but because it just wouldn't run. That to me is the sign of amateur development. When a game isn't playable not because of gameplay problems or because of plot problems but because of technical problems, I feel there's no excuse. Also, in the case of IW this wasn't a problem on my end, this was a problem experienced by the vast majority of people who bought it for the PC. When on the day you purchase a game you're unable to play it because of technical problems, the development house that made it has failed.

Sandman

11-26-2007, 10:35 AM

Is no dead franchise safe from resurrection?

EvilBob46

11-26-2007, 10:36 AM

Given that no developers of the original are involved and that the game is being handled by a completely untested development studio funded by a publisher that has gone down the toilet in recent years, how anyone could be optimistic about this title is beyond me.

Pluvious

11-26-2007, 10:38 AM

I'm so bitter about that stupid sequel that I don't care about number 3 to be honest. They RUINED that IP and I'll never trust them to get HALF of what Deus Ex 1 had going for it.

WastelandDan

11-26-2007, 10:43 AM

I'm so bitter about that stupid sequel that I don't care about number 3 to be honest. They RUINED that IP and I'll never trust them to get HALF of what Deus Ex 1 had going for it.

Every time I play through Deux Ex again I find stuff I missed the other times. I'm astonished at how many choices you're given for how to complete your objectives, whether it's blowing up Gunter (I think that's his name) with rockets, or discovering his self-destruct code, or having him and his robo-female-comrade turn on each other. The game had a massive amount of choice and some really beautiful plot turns, and I loved every second of it. I have yet to experience any RPG-shooter as much as I enjoyed Deux Ex. It's one of the reasons IW made me want to vomit blood. At this point the only thing that could make me feel better about that experience was if I received a personal apology from Warren Specter himself.

YoungAlCapone

11-26-2007, 10:57 AM

When on the day you purchase a game you're unable to play it because of technical problems, the development house that made it has failed.

I noticed that you said game you had "played."

That said, I cannot disagree with you there. Dark Messiah early this year is my example. I paid $50 for a game that would not run on my computer, even though the demo ran completely unhitched. The amount of shit I had to go through to finally get that game running was completely unacceptable.

I ended up playing that game like 5 times though, so maybe it isn't that great of an example.

Maskatron

11-26-2007, 10:58 AM

I actually enjoyed Deus Ex 2 quite a bit...but it didn't hold up to the CLASSIC ORIGINAL. My main beefs were the cramped level designs and the story was weaker.

With better console hardware now, the consolitis problem is not so much of a concern. Most people were pretty happy with the way Bioshock turned out. Even if it is a little more "actiony" in the spirit of Bioshock, I wouldn't discount it for that. Of much more concern to me is who the creative team is and what experience they have.

Gedd

11-26-2007, 11:17 AM

Haha, another $50 box of fail.

Protip for Eidos: Don't bother.

TempestBlayze

11-26-2007, 11:33 AM

To be honest I think I would rather have a carbon copy of the game using the Unreal 3 engine rather than the Unreal 1 engine.

That would be awesome. But like I said, it is my favorite game ever so it may be only me who thinks that would be awesome.

There is no way a new Deus Ex without Warren can be on par or better than the original.

Dear Warren,
Stop making Disney games and start making real games again!

GigaFuzz

11-26-2007, 12:12 PM

How much did Warren Spector actually have to do with Invisible War? From what I remember, I think he went into a more managerial position, and Harvey Smith was the lead.

atariv8

11-26-2007, 12:12 PM

Just redo DX with an improved DX 2 engine. We all win.

EDIT: I was beat to it...damn page 2!

Stormwatcher

11-26-2007, 12:13 PM

YoungAlCapone

11-26-2007, 12:17 PM

How much did Warren Spector actually have to do with Invisible War? From what I remember, I think he went into a more managerial position, and Harvey Smith was the lead.

Yeah, basically that is the case. I always blamed that for the mistakes made there, but for no real reason other than I feel than Warren Spector is a game design god.

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 12:28 PM

I hope to god that they do not "consolelize" this game like they did with Deus Ex 2 invisible wars. In my opinion that is one of the big killers of the game. We need more choices and more freedom.

:rolleyes: Those are not issues with consoles, just issues with wanting to widen the audience.

Varsity

11-26-2007, 12:31 PM

Rendered, non-gameplay, voiceover-ed teaser. (http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/games.html) So far, so generic Hollywood.

:rolleyes: Those are not issues with consoles, just issues with wanting to widen the audience.

They are one and the same.

GigaFuzz

11-26-2007, 01:06 PM

Rendered, non-gameplay, voiceover-ed teaser. (http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/games.html) So far, so generic Hollywood.

They're hardly going to have in-game footage ready if they're just past the concept stage.

Exodus

11-26-2007, 01:06 PM

After IW, there's really no way they can screw this up. It's been so very long since IW that I can barely remember why I disliked it other than probably the same reasons I disliked witcher, small ass zones or exorbitant loading screens/times.

let's make one thing clear. I love warren. I'd die for the guy. He believes or I think he does in a lot of things that I do. But his last game left me underwhelmed but hey, it's an action game, not the greatest, I enjoyed lost planet a helluva lot more but.. sure. Deus Ex's success does not depend on his involvement.

Personally, I hope they forget what's been done and create an actual living and breathing world, not a series of tiny ass maps. What I want, is like vampires the masquerade: bloodlines detail, with much bigger worlds, and as equal and more intricate stories/plots/interactions and more.

They can go the other route like bioshock I suppose, that works but let's hope to god the story and interactions isn't just kill girls or don't kill girls.

Hemalin

11-26-2007, 01:18 PM

:rolleyes: Those are not issues with consoles, just issues with wanting to widen the audience.

How are small levels with lots of loading not an issue with consoles?

Slowpc

11-26-2007, 01:19 PM

Just bring it back to the original styling and for the pc... and I will be happy :)

Rifter

11-26-2007, 01:21 PM

So... we start in the womb, to define who and what we are? Interesting.

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 01:29 PM

How are small levels with lots of loading not an issue with consoles?
It’s a design issue… there are plenty of console games that don’t have that issue.
And in this generation of gaming consoles it’s FAR less of an issue.

But, surely THAT isn’t your biggest complaint about Dues Ex 2? That’s a minor niggle at the very most. The issues with Dues Ex 2 were much deeper then that.

Disgustipated

11-26-2007, 01:42 PM

This will never be as good as Deus Ex 1, at least not in the fanboy's eyes.

It might be good.

Crowe

11-26-2007, 02:01 PM

Please make it more like the original. Please realise that console gamers can indeed enjoy games as complex and as awesome as the Original. Please realise that not every game has to be a straight up shooter to make money.....

Lutheran

11-26-2007, 02:07 PM

If its anything at all like Bioshock I will be happy as hell..that is a great game. I would love a mixture of Bioshock and DX1 with a side taste of SS.

BigJonno

11-26-2007, 02:08 PM

"Dumbing down for consoles" is a myth created by rabid PC elitists. Yes, a lot of PC titles have received "dumbed-down" follow-ups, but you can hardly blame that on consoles. Morrowind had a direct Xbox port. I've not played it, but Deus Ex was released on the PS2. The most popular games on PCs are WoW and multiplayer shooters, neither of which would have problems running on consoles or being understood by the average Halo jockey. Is Counter-Strike a "smart" game because it's mainly a PC title? Was (pulling a random example out of my arse) Faranheit a "dumb" game because it was developed for consoles as well as PC?

Games are dumbed down for the mass market, not for platforms. The PC is the largest "casual" platform in the world, quite possibly because people own PCs for something other than gaming. A shoot-em-up with RPG elements is easier to develop and more likely to do well than a deep RPG that happens to have a shoot-em-up combat system.

However none of this excuses bad interfaces on games that are developed for both PC and consoles. :mad:

Sonic Wang

11-26-2007, 02:32 PM

Frankly i think the lack of Warren Spector may a good thing. From what i heard, he was on a leash for DX1 and with DX2 he had free reign to put whatever he wanted in it and it turned into a steam pile that we now know. And lets not forget the anal raping Thief 3 received thanks to him.

Mighty Jesus

11-26-2007, 02:37 PM

Was (pulling a random example out of my arse) Faranheit a "dumb" game because it was developed for consoles as well as PC?

Yes. Well, not sure if consoles are to blame, but it was a dumb game. Nothing but 'Game says press this. Okay, I'll press that. Next cutscene, please'. However b-grade indie film your writing is, your game shouldn't be called smart unless it has enough faith in its audience not being drooling mongoloids to let get of their hands once in a fucking while.

Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest ...

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 02:39 PM

Yes. Well, not sure if consoles are to blame, but it was a dumb game. Nothing but 'Game says press this. Okay, I'll press that. Next cutscene, please'. However b-grade indie film your writing is, your game shouldn't be called smart unless it has enough faith in its audience not being drooling mongoloids to let get of their hands once in a fucking while.

Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest ...

I like Faranheit more then I like you. =oP ;o)

Hemalin

11-26-2007, 02:53 PM

It’s a design issue… there are plenty of console games that don’t have that issue.
It's a design issue brought about by the limitations of the Xbox.

And in this generation of gaming consoles it’s FAR less of an issue.
I hope so, then again Oblivion had loading screens when you entered a 5'X5'
room.
But, surely THAT isn’t your biggest complaint about Dues Ex 2? That’s a minor niggle at the very most. The issues with Dues Ex 2 were much deeper then that.
IW had plenty of problems, from the small levels, dumbed down leveling, crappy UI, universal ammo, all of which were done to try and make the game appeal to the console kiddies.

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 03:01 PM

It's a design issue brought about by the limitations of the Xbox.
Bull-crap.
When it came out it needed a fairly hefty PC, and I remember folks upgrading to run it (I was one). The limit of the 'average' PC is an issue as much an issue as the limits of the Xbox.
I hope so, then again Oblivion had loading screens when you entered a 5'X5' room.
I could point out how the console version sacrificed very little when compared with a (then) high-end PC. Or I could point at Assassins Creed as an example of a open space with lots of NPCs. Instead I’ll just :rolleyes:
IW had plenty of problems, from the small levels, dumbed down leveling, crappy UI, universal ammo, all of which were done to try and make the game appeal to the console kiddies. Half right. All of which were done to try and make the game appeal to the kiddies, and there are kiddies on all platforms. If there were no consoles in the picture, the fallout would have been the same. Trying to blame consoles for the decline in content is just silly.
Transfering to a console didn't require a sacrifice then (Halflife 2, Morrowind, KotOR) and it doesn't now (Assassins Creed, Bioshock, Mass Effect).

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 03:09 PM

IW had plenty of problems, from the small levels, dumbed down leveling, crappy UI, universal ammo, all of which were done to try and make the game appeal to the console kiddies.

A quick addendum… I'm kinda there with you on most of your complaints. I was exclusively a PC gamer until the cost of the upgrade cycle drove me out. I never owned a Sega, Nintendo or Sony system. And I got an Xbox for the PC style games.
I also regret the simplification in Oblivion and Bioshock from their predecessors. And my tastes often diverge sharply from the others on this site.

But, at this point, blaming the consoles is dumb. Consoles may be blighted with Halo frat-boy players, but PCs are blighted with WoW and 2nd life players, and they are just as bad. The decline in complexity to appeal to the wider public is not driven by simplified hardware. If you watch the making of Bioshock you’ll see why they went the direction they did, and while I don’t agree with it, I can see what they were aiming for (the ability for everyone to experience anything – which in my opinion lessened the impact of character development and made it meaningless).

Magnanimous Gnome

11-26-2007, 03:45 PM

Is no dead franchise safe from resurrection?

Hmmm, probably not. Although I'm guessing we've seen the last of Dungeon Keeper.

Oh, I better go before I get started... :mad:

Johan

11-26-2007, 05:01 PM

Games are dumbed down for the mass market, not for platforms....However none of this excuses bad interfaces on games that are developed for both PC and consoles. :mad:

I think consoles make for bad interfaces for some genres, such as RPGs and RTSs, myself.

In that respect, I would say the console does indeed "dumb down" the game, because it's limited because of the gamepad/controller.

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 05:12 PM

In that respect, I would say the console does indeed "dumb down" the game, because it's limited because of the gamepad/controller.

Morrowind, KotOR and Mass Effect came out fine........

MacD

11-26-2007, 06:05 PM

%bigger levels, please. If you fix just one thing, make it that%
/crossedfingers

Maybe this will happen, too...consoles are the limiting factor, but they can play pretty large areas nowadays. 'Cuz there's no way that Eidos ain't releasing this on all platforms

Of course, they would also have to recreate the level of story- and combat options the first DX had, as, even though I thought it was a pretty fun game, the small levels of IW resulted in a sadly neccessary restriction of your (tactical) options.

H.Bogard

11-26-2007, 06:36 PM

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 06:47 PM

All those "deep" PC games you mentioned were developed primarily for the PC and later on ported to consoles.
That’s the point, surely… the development platform is irrelevant when compared to the design phase. The design must meet the needs of the game, not the needs of a platform. When a design meets the needs of the game, the game remains strong no matter which platform it gets ported to.
Oblivion and Deus Ex 2 were simeltaneously developed for consoles and PC which had a negative impact on the final product (the UI and loading screens for tiny huts in Oblivion and the entire fucking thing in DEx2).
You’re kidding yourself. I responded to Dues Ex specifically above, so I’ll focus on Oblivion here.
If Oblivion had never been planned for consoles it still would have been ‘streamlined’. They had a taste of the mass market with Morrowind and had made the decision to aim for that group this time around. PC or Console – the mass-market users on both platforms demand similar game play concessions.
And as with Dues Ex 2, when Oblivion came out people had to upgrade – ‘normal’ PCs did not handle it well. The technical design was as much a concession to low-spec PCs as it was to the Xbox.

Eidos should've just handed the development duty to the guys that made STALKER, that would've been tits.
I look forward to playing that.

H.Bogard

11-26-2007, 06:59 PM

You’re kidding yourself. I responded to Dues Ex specifically above, so I’ll focus on Oblivion here.
If Oblivion had never been planned for consoles it still would have been ‘streamlined’. They had a taste of the mass market with Morrowind and had made the decision to aim for that group this time around. PC or Console – the mass-market users on both platforms demand similar game play concessions.
And as with Dues Ex 2, when Oblivion came out people had to upgrade – ‘normal’ PCs did not handle it well. The technical design was as much a concession to low-spec PCs as it was to the Xbox.

I meant to say was that catering to fit a game for two platforms, all while aiming for a piece of that 'broader audience' pie made for the bitter tastes.

In Oblivion, it was less so... but mind you, good cRPG's which were developed simeltaneously for consoles and PC are rare and hard to do.

Tel Prydain

11-26-2007, 07:06 PM

I meant to say was that catering to fit a game for two platforms, all while aiming for a piece of that 'broader audience' pie made for the bitter tastes.

In Oblivion, it was less so... but mind you, good cRPG's which were developed simeltaneously for consoles and PC are rare and hard to do.

Oblivion was a funny case. I really enjoyed it, thought it was way better then Morrowind and had a blast. It came out the same time as the 360 here in New Zealand and I took a week off to play with my new toy. :cool:

It wasn't until I had finished Oblivion and gone back to work that I had read the message boards. They pointed out all the things that were wrong or missing, and in the space of a day I had gone from loving it to thinking that is was a slice of suck-pie. :eek:

Later I recovered my perspective and learned to love Oblivion again (Shivering Isles helped), but it was never the same. :(

From that day forward I desided to never read negitive reviews of games I have played and enjoyed, because nit-pickers have a way of sucking the joy out of things.
:D:p

Kefkataran

11-26-2007, 07:10 PM

I'm interviewing the head of the new Eidos Montreal studio for 1UP tomorrow about this. I'll link the interview here once it's up if anything interesting is revealed.

Frogleg Special

11-26-2007, 07:30 PM

But, at this point, blaming the consoles is dumb. Consoles may be blighted with Halo frat-boy players, but PCs are blighted with WoW and 2nd life players, and they are just as bad.

Actually there are total disconnect between WoW PC Gamers, Second Life Gamers, Sims Gamers, Battlefield Gamers, Counter-Strike Gamers, Neverwinters Nights Gamers and so on.

PC Gamers are mostly segmentized and each segment plays and focuses on its little games. FPS squads doesn't tread too much on RTS land, and RTS geeks don't spend too much time on FPS games. Which add the hardcore gaming flavors to PC, and casual gaming nuance to PC. Because of the rental nature of console gaming, majority of console gamers dabble on many things and rarely has that focus found in PC gamers. Thus, two definitions of gaming hardcores are made. Console gamers are hardcore because they try all games, PC gamers are hardcore because they exclusively play 2-3 games only.

Ultima Thulian

11-26-2007, 07:49 PM

I loved both, but the first was definitely better. But then again, it is hard to top the first. It doesn't deserve the hate it gets nor does the whole bullshit "consolization" theory. It applies to some games, but not IW.

Fuck, the original Deus Ex ported to the PS2 pretty well. IW's problems were poor ammo method, a disjointed story, bugs, and an overall more confined feel (both when it comes to environments and choices). But for the exception of maybe the confined feel, none of those other problems can be blamed on the consolelization theory. PC elitists just blame consoles because it's easier to do than admit the game had problems and come to grips with their respective fanboyism.

Fuck, you don't see console gamers bitch that their games have become overly complex due to a PClization.

Johan

11-26-2007, 08:08 PM

Morrowind, KotOR and Mass Effect came out fine........

I don't know about KotOR or Mass Effect on the PC, but I can say quite unequivocably/definitively that Morrowind offered far more in the way of options, playability, and modifications on the PC than on the 360. The same is true of Oblivion.

In fact, I would argue that the leveling system in Oblivion ruined the experience for some, but with the PC, this problem is easily solved with modifications to the game.

The PC offers a far greater range of options and material for gamers in the RPG, RTS, and in many ways the FPS genres, in my experience.

Aggort

11-26-2007, 08:13 PM

Damn, I find out, search on EvAv and bam this post is already here. I'm very excited over this, an update and a new time is all this game needed. I still say that it was advanced for it's time and came out 5 years too soon!

Aggort

11-26-2007, 08:15 PM

This will never be as good as Deus Ex 1, at least not in the fanboy's eyes.

It might be good.

That's the same with COD fanboys, COD 2 will be there golden child. Same goes for Zelda fans and Ocarina. Same with UT fans, 2004 (though I am sure others are fanboys of others) And Counterstrike... I think I've made my point.

H.Bogard

11-26-2007, 08:41 PM

From that day forward I desided to never read negitive reviews of games I have played and enjoyed, because nit-pickers have a way of sucking the joy out of things.
:D:p

That's what we're here for: bitching. :D

H.Bogard

11-26-2007, 08:44 PM

Fuck, you don't see console gamers bitch that their games have become overly complex due to a PClization.

That can be a good thing in some cases... y'know.

Ultima Thulian

11-26-2007, 08:49 PM

Complex can be good.
Overly complex never so. Hence the "overly" part.

That being said, there are probably more console elitists than PC elitists, but I'm neither. Both have their merits. I just play consoles way more because it suits my tastes better.

Phoenix1985

11-26-2007, 09:07 PM

Hooray! More DE. I was wondering how they'd manage to fit together the story with the things that could happen at the end of 2... probably the same way they did for one, and have every ending be true, somehow.

Frogleg Special

11-26-2007, 10:10 PM

Complex can be good.
Overly complex never so. Hence the "overly" part.

There's no such thing as overly complex game especially in this era.

If the game is overly complex game, then the game is not for you but there might be guys who are into it.

Ultima Thulian

11-26-2007, 10:15 PM

Bullshit. There is such a thing as overly complex.

I mean really...c'mon.

Kefkataran

11-26-2007, 11:29 PM

Actually there are total disconnect between WoW PC Gamers, Second Life Gamers, Sims Gamers, Battlefield Gamers, Counter-Strike Gamers, Neverwinters Nights Gamers and so on.

PC Gamers are mostly segmentized and each segment plays and focuses on its little games. FPS squads doesn't tread too much on RTS land, and RTS geeks don't spend too much time on FPS games. Which add the hardcore gaming flavors to PC, and casual gaming nuance to PC. Because of the rental nature of console gaming, majority of console gamers dabble on many things and rarely has that focus found in PC gamers. Thus, two definitions of gaming hardcores are made. Console gamers are hardcore because they try all games, PC gamers are hardcore because they exclusively play 2-3 games only.

I think this is a gross oversimplification. I know a lot of console gamers who concentrate on 2-3 games only and plenty of PC gamers who play stuff all over the spectrum. And I also know plenty of people who play stuff all over on both console and PC.

Frogleg Special

11-26-2007, 11:41 PM

Bullshit. There is such a thing as overly complex.

I mean really...c'mon.

Is there someone with a higher IQ than you?

The world is not created to be equal.

Kefkataran

11-26-2007, 11:45 PM

Is there someone with a higher IQ than you?

The world is not created to be equal.

Bad analogy. I've played games that I think are too complex, and I've understood that other people might like them -- just as, inevitably, other people might like anything else I don't like -- but I don't think that makes the fact that I find them too complex unable to be criticized.

Frogleg Special

11-26-2007, 11:53 PM

I think this is a gross oversimplification. I know a lot of console gamers who concentrate on 2-3 games only and plenty of PC gamers who play stuff all over the spectrum. And I also know plenty of people who play stuff all over on both console and PC.

Gross simplification? Hardly. I don't see that many websites dedicated to single console games other Halo and Gears of War. While there are websites dedicated to PC games like Civilization, Caesar, Company of Heroes, and during its heyday, Tribes. Such websites are made because some gamers are that dedicated with games.

Again PC gamers who like dabble every game all over the spectrum are much more likely to resort to shady means, because you have no option to rent the games.

Frogleg Special

11-26-2007, 11:56 PM

Bad analogy. I've played games that I think are too complex, and I've understood that other people might like them -- just as, inevitably, other people might like anything else I don't like -- but I don't think that makes the fact that I find them too complex unable to be criticized.

Sure, but don't blame and exclaim the game too complex just because you think it's complex. It's complex because it's simply not your type of game.

Then again, it goes both ways. "Dumb" games may not be so dumb for some people.

Kefkataran

11-27-2007, 12:39 AM

Gross simplification? Hardly. I don't see that many websites dedicated to single console games other Halo and Gears of War. While there are websites dedicated to PC games like Civilization, Caesar, Company of Heroes, and during its heyday, Tribes. Such websites are made because some gamers are that dedicated with games.

You're pointing to the cream of the crop of PC games. There are plenty of sites devoted to the same for console games. There are tons of Mario and Zelda fansites, BioShock and Call of Duty communities, and, as you said, Halo, Gears of War, etc. The only big difference that kept players uber-dedicated to single PC games was online play indefinitely expanding their life; now that we have that for consoles as well, the same thing is happening there, so I think your statement remains a gross oversimplification and also strangely ironic coming from someone who's also trying to say that we shouldn't ever label anything as too complex.

Sure, but don't blame and exclaim the game too complex just because you think it's complex. It's complex because it's simply not your type of game.

I personally believe it's 100% valid criticism to point out ways in which a game is overly complex. Added layers to a game don't necessarily make it better and sometimes those added layers can actually make a game worse. If that's the case, in your opinion, then I think you can rightfully call something too complex.

The idea that it's just not your type of game could be used to defend against any criticism.

Frogleg Special

11-27-2007, 01:12 AM

You're pointing to the cream of the crop of PC games. There are plenty of sites devoted to the same for console games. There are tons of Mario and Zelda fansites, BioShock and Call of Duty communities, and, as you said, Halo, Gears of War, etc. The only big difference that kept players uber-dedicated to single PC games was online play indefinitely expanding their life; now that we have that for consoles as well, the same thing is happening there, so I think your statement remains a gross oversimplification and also strangely ironic coming from someone who's also trying to say that we shouldn't ever label anything as too complex.

Caesar is not a big and MP game. So are Europa Universalis or Freespace.

So let's check out crossplatform game site like Planet Call of Duty. Now who do you think populate the forum more, the PC gamers or the console gamers? In retrospect, the proportion of those who play COD4 in the X360 highly exceeded the ones who buy the PC version, and the game is designed first as a console game.

I personally believe it's 100% valid criticism to point out ways in which a game is overly complex. Added layers to a game don't necessarily make it better and sometimes those added layers can actually make a game worse. If that's the case, in your opinion, then I think you can rightfully call something too complex.

The idea that it's just not your type of game could be used to defend against any criticism.

If it's valid to call some games overly complex, then it's also valid to label some games are overly simplified aka dumbed down.

Now I might say that both cases are true personally. I don't like to play games that are over my head and also don't like games that put wizard-like simplification over its mechanics. But I have no right to judge the game are too complex because my opinion is not universal. It's for the devs to decide if their games are too complex. Because if everyone/most think their games are too complex, then the game will not sell and they don't get their paycheck. On the other hand, if you and I think the game is complex but some joes in Kentucky say the game is just perfect then the game will still sell.

Kefkataran

11-27-2007, 01:49 AM

If it's valid to call some games overly complex, then it's also valid to label some games are overly simplified aka dumbed down.

Of course that's valid, and people have done so for a long time. IIRC that's the primary complaint a lot of PC gamers have had about PC developers moving their franchises to consoles. Whether or not I agree with that, I think it's totally a valid opinion to have and can be argued.

I don't like to play games that are over my head and also don't like games that put wizard-like simplification over its mechanics. But I have no right to judge the game are too complex because my opinion is not universal.

No opinion is universal by the very definition of the word opinion. Again, going off of what you're saying, we couldn't ever pass judgment on a game about anything. If I say a game is too complex, I'm giving my opinion, and that doesn't make it a fact... but there's no reason that it's not a valid opinion and not something that can be debated.

Frogleg Special

11-27-2007, 02:35 AM

Of course that's valid, and people have done so for a long time. IIRC that's the primary complaint a lot of PC gamers have had about PC developers moving their franchises to consoles. Whether or not I agree with that, I think it's totally a valid opinion to have and can be argued.

Well, then it's their opinion but it's not a universal belief and certainly not fact.

No opinion is universal by the very definition of the word opinion. Again, going off of what you're saying, we couldn't ever pass judgment on a game about anything. If I say a game is too complex, I'm giving my opinion, and that doesn't make it a fact... but there's no reason that it's not a valid opinion and not something that can be debated.

Yes, you shouldn't pass that judgement. The same way the PC gamers shouldn't think that console-focused reincarnations are "dumbed down" and exclaim it to the world in bold, H1 fonts. Opinion is for each of us to hug, but not shoving it to other people. If you say a game is overly complex or too dumb, that's for yourself to digest. Other mileages may vary.

Kefkataran

11-27-2007, 03:18 AM

Well, then it's their opinion but it's not a universal belief and certainly not fact.

Opinion is for each of us to hug, but not shoving it to other people. If you say a game is overly complex or too dumb, that's for yourself to digest. Other mileages may vary.

Who was ever arguing that any of this was fact? Virtually everything anyone ever writes on a message board is opinion-based, and I don't think anyone was trying to say that they can 100% prove one way or another that a game is too complex. That would be silly. But saying that we shouldn't give our opinions on a forum that's based around discussing opinions is equally silly.

Frogleg Special

11-27-2007, 03:25 AM

Who was ever arguing that any of this was fact? Virtually everything anyone ever writes on a message board is opinion-based, and I don't think anyone was trying to say that they can 100% prove one way or another that a game is too complex. That would be silly. But saying that we shouldn't give our opinions on a forum that's based around discussing opinions is equally silly.

That would be like arguing that PC gaming elitists have a point on their crusade against dumbed down gaming. Again, that's their opinion right?

Kefkataran

11-27-2007, 03:26 AM

That would be like arguing that PC gaming elitists have a point on their crusade against dumbed down gaming. Again, that's their opinion right?

Huh? Yes, it is their opinion. I have no idea what you're trying to say any more. :/

Frogleg Special

11-27-2007, 03:42 AM

Huh? Yes, it is their opinion. I have no idea what you're trying to say any more. :/

So why console gamers are feeling touchy when PC gamers are telling console games are dumbed-down?

I myself think that there are no such thing as dumb or complex games since every guy in this planet has his own standard. It's captain obvious. Overly complex? Fine, put it in your own notebook. Don't need to make it to a banner and wave it to the world because the world as we know it is not uniform. The standard goes below you (your opinion: overly simple, dumbed down) and above you (your opinion: overly complex).

Kefkataran

11-27-2007, 04:42 AM

So why console gamers are feeling touchy when PC gamers are telling console games are dumbed-down?

I myself think that there are no such thing as dumb or complex games since every guy in this planet has his own standard. It's captain obvious. Overly complex? Fine, put it in your own notebook. Don't need to make it to a banner and wave it to the world because the world as we know it is not uniform. The standard goes below you (your opinion: overly simple, dumbed down) and above you (your opinion: overly complex).

Despite your insanely confusing way of writing, I think understand what you're saying. My point is just that internet forums exist for sharing and discussing opinions. Saying that no one should express x opinion doesn't really make sense to me.

LongStepMantis

11-27-2007, 10:03 AM

I don't know about KotOR or Mass Effect on the PC, but I can say quite unequivocably/definitively that Morrowind offered far more in the way of options, playability, and modifications on the PC than on the 360. The same is true of Oblivion.

I have to agree whole-heartedly about that.
I STILL play Morrowind on my PC. Because every time I start a new game, I just load 7 or 8 different mods, making an entirely different experience each time.

Each time I can add new creatures, quests, towns, CONTINENTS, it just keeps going and going.
I use a housing mod called "A Good Place to Stay" that gives you a nice little mansion, complete with labeled jars for alchemic ingredients, armor display dummies, and a magic cup that I carry on me that can teleport me back to the house anytime I use it. And the house itself has a teleporter that can teleport me to any town on the continent. So long annoying treks across the wasteland...unless I feel like it.

My point is that mods make games like Morrowind and Oblivion infinitely more entertaining and increase replayability a ton. Mods are one of the reasons if I have a choice between console and PC, especially for games like those, I choose PC.

Ultima Thulian

11-27-2007, 10:17 AM

Games can be too complex, to the point where even most people won't like them. For example, nothing fits this description better than the some of the Nippon games on the PSP. For example, the sequel to Generation of Chaos. Overly complicated menus. Over amount of actions upon useless actions. And so forth.

Yes, a game can be too complex. It's not an I.Q. thing or any other pretentious horseshit like that. It is when a game adds too many layers and ends up drowning itself in its own wake.

And for a polar opposite. Portal is complex. Great game, but some of the later puzzles really make you think, and some folks may not be able to figure them out. This is NOT an example of overly complex. Overly complex is different.

Ultima Thulian

11-27-2007, 10:26 AM

And to be clear, I'm not a console elitist nor was I "touchy" when PC gamers complain about PC games getting dumbed down for a console port. In truth, I HATE it when any game has to sacrifice its vision and fullness when being ported over. Granted, a little sacrifice here and there is no big deal. For example, Doom 3 on the Xbox didn't look as god as the PC version, but other than that, it lost nothing in the process, except maybe the mod community. But that's another outside influence all together. But when a game is ported over and gets really fuckered up by it, then that is bad for all gamers. And I try to avoid poor PC-to-Console ports, just like I'm sure PC gamers try to avoid poor Console-to-PC ports. A good example is when Starcraft was ported to the N64. What were they thinking?

HOWEVER, IW's problems had nothing to do with being "dumbed" down for a console. Not a thing. And, IW was a very good game, it just didn't live to the ridiculously high standard of the first, and fanboys bitched and raved and made things sound way worse than they were. They were dissapointed because their expectations were too high. That happens to a lot of high profile games in established series, and frankly, I find it to be bullshit. Whenever I do a review, I do my damnedest to put aside any expectations, negative or otherwise, andy bias, and then review the game at my own pace, in order to get the best review. I ain't perfect, but I try my best at this. Other people should do the same.

I mean really, if you compared every game you played to Deus Ex, then you are going to end up very dissapointed most of the time. It's one of the greatest games ever made.