Warhammer Online pushed back.

[Squidbot]

The highly anticipated MMO incarnation of Warhammer (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/home/index.php), originally slated for a Q1 2008 release, has now been delayed by three months.

In an open letter to the community, EA Mythic boss Mark Jacobs had this to say:
When we looked at our options, two paths lay before us: 1) Ship the game on time with fewer features and less polish, or 2) Extend the development cycle and spend the needed time and money to make WAR great, We chose the latter path - to invest additional time and effort in implementation and polish to make WAR great.

In an interview with Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=86853) Jacobs makes clear that this is apparently part of a new approach to game creation by EA, which is centred around:
talking to the community, getting their feedback, and being involved


This announcement, so soon after the closure of the Beta servers last month in order to make changes the beta testers had been demanding, not to mention the layoffs, can be construed either way; Good or bad. Some might say this is indicative of a title in trouble, while others would vouch that it’s a good thing they are giving the title the time it deserves.

A new approach to game creation by EA?

[Lint of Death]

At least the wacky guy in all the newsletter's videos is still working there as far as I know.

[Nura]

Holy crap! EA is starting to listen to the communities now? The next thing will be they actully support their games after release, instead of half-hearted patches.

[Deepsleeper]

Thank god.

After all the betas where we keep hearing "I was in the beta, it was awful. They released it anyway, I dunno why." (Like Hellgate:London) it's nice to see a company going "The beta testers told us it needed work, so we kept it for more work."

Is it bad that this seems painfully rare?

[Kem0sabe]

This doesn't bode well for the game me thinks, it just spells out "Radical redesign of game elements".

More likely EA is trying to turn this into a more appealing game for the masses i.e WoW.

[bean19]

Yeah, I think they know that they have the next WoW on their hands if they get it right. People often think that EA just rushes things to rush things, but that isn't true. They rush things based on cost analysis.

They also said that their layoffs were minor which could mean normal development. Many times, in growing teams quickly, game companies find that they've kissed a number of frogs and there is no reason to keep them around. A layoff is a kind (severance pay) and more legal way of firing them.

Deepsleeper - I was in the beta, but I did not frequent the boards (very late preorder beta where changes weren't going to be made). Hellgate: London is a fun Diablo in 3D game with futuristic weapons. . . I'm not sure what people were expecting, but it delivers on being that. You kill stuff, level up, and collect loot while progressing an often funny and macabre - but by the numbers - story.

[Deepsleeper]

Hey, I really liked what I got to play of Hellgate. But people in the beta bitched and were ignored, and now there's an epic bitch-fest on most boards about the game.

If a game with as much potential as Warhammer Online avoids that fate somehow, so much the better.

[Loganrapp]

Well, the concept behind WAR as a game is inherently different from WoW.

The game world will be different when you log off from when you log back on. This is because territory can be captured. You can sack a capital city. You'll probably never sack every capital city of one army, and if you do, I'm sure there's a system in place for that army to become insurgents and reclaim it, but that's a storyline that you, the players, create on every side of the equation.

In WoW, maybe you get a big raid, maybe have some fun on the battlefields, but aside from a bit of loot there's nothing on the line.

In WAR, you're fighting for your home, maybe trying to take someone else's home, and if you win you have done something for your entire faction. A little piece of land. Maybe (going idealistic for a moment here) a town that creates a specific item, or a specific sort of item, only found in that town.

For me, it's going to come down to my ability to effect change upon the game world. I'm looking at The Agency, WAR, and Age of Conan. I have to believe that one of these three will pan out. Because I hate MMOs as they are now but I love the concept of MMOs so much that I beg for the grindhouses to die out and have the industry branch off into so many different and successful directions.

[captainstrombosis]

This doesn't bode well for the game me thinks, it just spells out "Radical redesign of game elements".

More likely EA is trying to turn this into a more appealing game for the masses i.e WoW.

They didn't need radical changes. So I don't see it being a huge problem. This bodes extremely well IMO.

The game just wasn't ready. It is that simple.

[Karmakin]

Polish, Polish, Polish.

That's what the delay is for I think. From what I've heard, the core game is very solid, but very rough around the edges. I think EA is aiming to literally beat WoW, and I have to applaud that, even though I think WoW is a great game. Competition is good.

[Zander]

As a beta member, this game needs more time. Much more time. This is a good thing.

[lockwoodx]

I was brought in as a tester back in may. I went back to playing wow in a month. We all agreed it needs alot more time but then again look how badly EA rushed Hellgate London.

[reimomo]

As a beta member, this game needs more time. Much more time. This is a good thing.

Honestly, will the bean counters let ANY big title release in the summer? I'm betting on Q4 2008.

[Heretic Machine]

These guys aren't going to beat WoW, but if they produce a great title, they won't need to. This could provide a lot of long-term profits for EA, but only if they nail the launch. A good launch is crucial to the success of an MMO (and most other products in general), maybe EA knows this by now, maybe they don't. I hope they do, personally, because the game sounds pretty fun.

Is the NDA still up on this thing? If not, can anyone enlighten me as to the amount of grind involved compared to WoW?

[tenchiker]

Thank god.

After all the betas where we keep hearing "I was in the beta, it was awful. They released it anyway, I dunno why." (Like Hellgate:London) it's nice to see a company going "The beta testers told us it needed work, so we kept it for more work."

Is it bad that this seems painfully rare?

Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't EA involved in Hellgate? Doesn't that directly contradict this statement about EA?

[bryan]

Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't EA involved in Hellgate? Doesn't that directly contradict this statement about EA?

Situation's not exactly the same. Flagship is still independent, EA just publishes them. Mythic however, is directly owned by EA.

[Adam Blue]

A new approach to game creation by EA?

I've been pointing this out for a while. It started happening with C&C3 and the apology.

[Sandman]

Honestly, will the bean counters let ANY big title release in the summer? I'm betting on Q4 2008.

Except in the EA cannon a PC only mmorpg isn't a big release no matter how big it is for that genre.

[Ghostbear]

This is a good thing, as much as I am going nuts waiting for Warhammer, I can wait if it means that the game I want to play is that much better. Trust me when I say that this game is very exciting for me, I already have a guild forming with a website and everything :P

[Zeal]

i still haven't met anybody who has been able to play this damn game.

[captainstrombosis]

i still haven't met anybody who has been able to play this damn game.

Yes you have. However the NDA is still up as far as I know.

[KingGorilla]

Thank god.

After all the betas where we keep hearing "I was in the beta, it was awful. They released it anyway, I dunno why." (Like Hellgate:London) it's nice to see a company going "The beta testers told us it needed work, so we kept it for more work."

Is it bad that this seems painfully rare?

I will not rope Hellgate into this group, because the disappointment was the wall of Hype and the game gives you too short of a rope to traverse it. It was not a bad game, but it was not a 10 million selling epic RPG like we expect from the "Diablo Guys." And you could do a hell of a lot worse than this game, with free online.

But with all of the half assed, rushed, piece of shit MMORPG that ignorant publishers pushed out to get dem some of dat Warkraftz moniez, I am glad that a hard working team is putting the proper time into crafting their game. Thing about how Vanguard or D and D online would have benefitted from a few extra months just to polish what was there.

[Tabasco]

This can only be a good thing, as I really want this game to be good.

[Ghostbear]

i still haven't met anybody who has been able to play this damn game.

NDA NDA NDA

[everar]

Oh well, the powers that be are giving us Dawn of War: Soulstorm to sate us before WAROnline :D

[StGeorge]

Every time a company says "we had two options: release crap early or release gold later" - we always end up with "release crap later". There is nothing that 3 months can do to make a game better - you need 9 months to a year for "polish". In 3 months you can only do minor things like fix typos or adjust textures. That won't change a game from crap to great.

[captainstrombosis]

Every time a company says "we had two options: release crap early or release gold later" - we always end up with "release crap later". There is nothing that 3 months can do to make a game better - you need 9 months to a year for "polish". In 3 months you can only do minor things like fix typos or adjust textures. That won't change a game from crap to great.

In most games, maybe. However MMO's generally release and patch to begin with. Tweaks are needed, those tweaks take time, however it's not re-inventing the wheel. It's also not 3 months. It's 3 months from the release date of march of next year. There is a fairly large difference ;)

[UWCrash]

I'm not in the beta so I haven't signed any NDAs, but I actually witnessed someone get in at a public event. What kind of legal ground would they be on if I exposed them? :D

[KingGorilla]

Every time a company says "we had two options: release crap early or release gold later" - we always end up with "release crap later". There is nothing that 3 months can do to make a game better - you need 9 months to a year for "polish". In 3 months you can only do minor things like fix typos or adjust textures. That won't change a game from crap to great.

STALKER and Prey seemed to turn out as good games. The console kids seem to like Halo. Both Banjo games suffered numerous delays. Blizzard pushed back the release of Burning Crusade, and it ended up being a phenomenal success and a great game/expansion. The LOTRO team took a few extra months to shore up things server side and work on bugs with the beta servers, and ended up being one of the smoothest MMO launches, if not the smoothest. I can go on, but suffice to say you are wrong.

[flinxz]

The list of MMOs that have not been delayed is pretty tiny. I wouldn't think anyone would be surprised by this (beyond the fact that EA is involved). I completely agree with whoever said that ultimately the game will come out in Q4 2008.

[EL CABONG]

This is good news. Now I can wait till after I get my income tax check to get a new pc to play Warhammer on.

I hope this game plays as good as it looks. Looking forward to maybe playing with a Evil Avatar guild and ganking some noobs.

[Ghostbear]

This is good news. Now I can wait till after I get my income tax check to get a new pc to play Warhammer on.

I hope this game plays as good as it looks. Looking forward to maybe playing with a Evil Avatar guild and ganking some noobs.

Well if you're interested, I have started a guild, We are gonna play Chaos mostly, but other Destruction guys are welcome. About 10 of us so far.
Fallen Guard (http://fallenguard.com) Feel free to sign up if any of you are interested.

[bean19]

In most games, maybe. However MMO's generally release and patch to begin with. Tweaks are needed, those tweaks take time, however it's not re-inventing the wheel. It's also not 3 months. It's 3 months from the release date of march of next year. There is a fairly large difference ;)

This will, in turn, change to holiday 2008 probably. I'm not in the beta, and don't know anyone who is blabbing, but many of their videos show whole areas that are not feature complete. Cities and raid instances that are not completed and thus are not tested.

The massive number of scenarios (basically battlegrounds) alone will realistically take 6 months to test well and they aren't done on them by any means. They want a different one for every town capture, so that's 6 right there. Then they want different ones for each area which creates the need for around 8 more. Even if they don't do that many, they are still looking at significantly more battlegrounds than WoW's 4. Plus, WoW didn't launch with any battlegrounds and they've just upped the number to 4 with the expansion. Add in all the epic "raid-like" quests that involve multiple players in an area working towards the same goal, open PvP world areas, PvE quests, and 6 races with 4 classes each and you have a game that is significantly bigger than WoW in content creation and features. Plus, they must ALL not be crap.

I know they've been working on it a long time, and my understanding is that they've neared content completion for greenskins and dwarves, humans and chaos are well on the way and elves are currently being cooked. Just that information, which they openly reveal on the site shows that the game is not close enough to completion to be done in just 4 months. It could be done in 7 considering they should have all the technologies in place and their team should be comprised of veterans, but I doubt they've really got every scenario working.

[KingGorilla]

Well if you're interested, I have started a guild, We are gonna play Chaos mostly, but other Destruction guys are welcome. About 10 of us so far.
Fallen Guard (http://fallenguard.com) Feel free to sign up if any of you are interested.

Sorry dude, Necron for life.

[captainstrombosis]

I know they've been working on it a long time, and my understanding is that they've neared content completion for greenskins and dwarves, humans and chaos are well on the way and elves are currently being cooked. Just that information, which they openly reveal on the site shows that the game is not close enough to completion to be done in just 4 months. It could be done in 7 considering they should have all the technologies in place and their team should be comprised of veterans, but I doubt they've really got every scenario working.

For the most part, I agree with you. That is that it will be longer than 3 months. The march date I stated was the original release, which now puts it in the June/July range. Which, most likely, will be moved to holiday '08.

This to me, is plenty for them to finish.

[EL CABONG]

Well if you're interested, I have started a guild, We are gonna play Chaos mostly, but other Destruction guys are welcome. About 10 of us so far.
Fallen Guard (http://fallenguard.com) Feel free to sign up if any of you are interested.

Thanks alot I not sure what I am going to play yet. I am leaning towards Orcs,maybe Dark-Elf. I like playing as evil,but the engineer class looks like alot of fun.

Still thatnks for the link I bookmarked your site maybe I will apply when I pick a side.

[Sloth]

the first impression of an MMO is very important, i think if the game is unpolished and missing features, it'll flop. Sure you can patch it up, but most people will have given up on it by then.

[KingGorilla]

For the most part, I agree with you. That is that it will be longer than 3 months. The march date I stated was the original release, which now puts it in the June/July range. Which, most likely, will be moved to holiday '08.
This to me, is plenty for them to finish.
Sooner is better than later, They do not want to run into Holiday '08 and have to go up against Lich King. This is definitely a case of Sooner rather than later. How much better would Quake Wars have been received if it made it out before TF2 rather than along with it? And part of LOTRO's success came from capitalizing on players burned out on WoW after the Burning Crusade rush had waned.

[captainstrombosis]

Sooner is better than later, They do not want to run into Holiday '08 and have to go up against Lich King. This is definitely a case of Sooner rather than later. How much better would Quake Wars have been received if it made it out before TF2 rather than along with it? And part of LOTRO's success came from capitalizing on players burned out on WoW after the Burning Crusade rush had waned.

This is true, I completely forgot about Lich King. Which makes me think they are actually going to stick to the June/July range. Kind of an odd time to release, but it's still enough time for them to get it working smoothly.

[bean19]

This is true, I completely forgot about Lich King. Which makes me think they are actually going to stick to the June/July range. Kind of an odd time to release, but it's still enough time for them to get it working smoothly.

Actually, it really seems like a great time to launch new IPs that are good. Battlefield 2, Dead Rising, LOTRO (as someone else mentioned) all did very well by launching outside the holiday season.

KG is right that it would hurt sales to go against the Lich King. A lot of players will be willing to put aside WoW, at least for a while, in order to try Warhammer if it releases next summer, but many won't ever give it a shot (or won't until they get tired of the Lich King - Summer 2009 or so), if they wait on it.

Either way, I want it to be good. I don't want to wait a bunch of extra months for a marketing launch window or for the minor tweaks we see in live patches of games, but it has to run well and it has to be fun.

[Ghostbear]

Sorry dude, Necron for life.

which would make sense, if this were 40k :D

[KingGorilla]

There are not Necron in Warhammer? A sale has been lost.

[Ghostbear]

There are not Necron in Warhammer? A sale has been lost.

yah, undead Machines powered by the star gods makes sense in a fantasy world :p

[KingGorilla]

Orcs with steam cannons does? It is a Fantasy universe, you can make whatever the fuck up. That is what makes it a fantasy. Though I may play an Orc, I did roll them once or twice.

[Herald42]

There's something kind of like the Necron...

the Tomb Kings. But they're an enemy of both sides in the MMO.

[Lint of Death]

Playing a Necron would rather suck. The only characters in their armies with free will really are the C'Tan gods, even the Necron Lords only have it to a degree.

And, sadly, most of the C'Tan have already been eaten.

[KingGorilla]

I like being in control of evil pets. So that is sort of up my alley. Blizzard managed to write in how the undead gained free will and joined the Horde. I want to control demonic hordes and wield destructive soul crushing spells god damnit.

[captainstrombosis]

I like being in control of evil pets. So that is sort of up my alley. Blizzard managed to write in how the undead gained free will and joined the Horde. I want to control demonic hordes and wield destructive soul crushing spells god damnit.

Blizzard controlled it's own story. Making a change like that with Games Workshop in control of the story... is fucking impossible.

[Ghostbear]

I like being in control of evil pets. So that is sort of up my alley. Blizzard managed to write in how the undead gained free will and joined the Horde. I want to control demonic hordes and wield destructive soul crushing spells god damnit.

Chaos Magus for you then

[Zeal]

can anyone let me borrow their account for like a day. i just wanna see if this game sucks ass or not.

[The Continental]

yah, undead Machines powered by the star gods makes sense in a fantasy world :pThe unbridled geek snobbery in this phost is something to behold. It really needs to be read in Comic Book Guy's voice.

I love it.

[DubiousQuality]

I like being in control of evil pets. So that is sort of up my alley. Blizzard managed to write in how the undead gained free will and joined the Horde. I want to control demonic hordes and wield destructive soul crushing spells god damnit.

Blizzard also has a habit of changing the lore whenever they see fit to begin with, giving one a sort of wtf feeling to begin with.

[Ghostbear]

The unbridled geek snobbery in this phost is something to behold. It really needs to be read in Comic Book Guy's voice.

I love it.
hey now to be fair, i put a smiley to point out I was just trying to be a smart ass. I guess i failed :(

[Headcase]

it's nice to see a company going "The beta testers told us it needed work, so we kept it for more work."

Is it bad that this seems painfully rare?

I play a lot of Nintendo games so I'm having trouble relating to the "rarity" of this announcement.

[bean19]

I play a lot of Nintendo games so I'm having trouble relating to the "rarity" of this announcement.

Why? Nintendo never listens to anyone. They make good first party games, but they do so with very little input from gamers - if any.