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View Full Version : Midway Developer thinks PS3 as Lead Platform would Avoid Delays


bapenguin
10-31-2007, 10:19 AM
Midway developer Mike Bilder thinks making the PS3 the lead platform (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16068) for development would alleviate a lot of the problems developers are having with trying to make a multi platform title.

In recent months we've seen half a dozen titles delayed for the PS3 because of difficulties dealing with the system. While many people think the system is harder to program for, the end result may be because of the memory differences between the systems.

What we found, though, when we tried to get some of it game-ready and fitting on the disc and fitting in memory, in the end it was an easier endeavor on two of the SKUs and it was a more difficult endeavor on one of them.

Mike's solution would be to have the PS3 as the lead platform. He believes this could help in some of the trickier areas, and due to both the 360 and PS3 being similar in power, you won't compromise frame rate or technology.

Seems to make sense to me. If going from PS3->360 is easier than 360->PS3, and you don't lose any quality, you might as well do it. But if developers do hit a snag on the PS3, is the problem tougher to solve?

agentgray
10-31-2007, 10:23 AM
This is a "duh" statement in regards to PS3 delays.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 10:25 AM
It makes sense if it'll help alleviate delays. Most companies would value doing that, I'd think.

Flatpicker
10-31-2007, 10:25 AM
Or you could remove the PS3 versions entirely.
If making the PS3 version the lead delays the other SKU's then it's a lose lose proposition.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 10:26 AM
Or you could remove the PS3 versions entirely.
If making the PS3 version the lead delays the other SKU's then it's a lose lose proposition.
Yeah, really. Why would you want to open up your sales to another market, anyway? :rolleyes:

Loki_09
10-31-2007, 10:27 AM
Thats great and all, but what happens if there's issues that delay the game on the PS3 when its the lead platform? 360 owners get the shaft too.

oldjadedgamer
10-31-2007, 10:28 AM
Yeah, really. Why would you want to open up your sales to another market, anyway? :rolleyes:

MGS4 on 360 CONFIRMED!!

Flatpicker
10-31-2007, 10:29 AM
Depends on the size of the market.
Depends on how tied you are to having the product release in a certain quarter, or hitting a certain milestone by a date.

Lots of variables and there is most likely no one answer that is correct.

scythe
10-31-2007, 10:31 AM
Seems to make sense to me. If going from PS3->360 is easier than 360->PS3, and you don't lose any quality, you might as well do it.

See, this is what I never understood. It seems to me that porting from 8 cores to 3 would be tougher than going from 3 to 8. Reducing concurrency in software is very hard.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 10:32 AM
MGS4 on 360 CONFIRMED!!
Any third party game that's console exclusive these days without moneyhats, for any platform, is not being put out by a publisher with it's best financial interests in mind.

Micasa
10-31-2007, 10:32 AM
The only reason that works is because delays to the PS3 version would then also delay the 360 one. Shafting the larger userbase, especially one that buys far more games, seems like a foolish idea.

Goronmon
10-31-2007, 10:33 AM
So, basically, instead of spending a year making the 360 version and then spending 2 months to finish tweaks for the PS3 port, you just spend a year and 2 months making the PS3 version and then spend a week or two finishing the tweaks for the 360 versions?

I guess that kinda makes sense...

;)

Edit: Damnit, Micasa beat me to the punch. That's what I get for adding a bit more flare to my post, haha.

oldjadedgamer
10-31-2007, 10:37 AM
Any third party game that's console exclusive these days without moneyhats, for any platform, is not being put out by a publisher with it's best financial interests in mind.

Since Sony doesn't pay for exclusives then Kojima doesn't have Konami's best financial interests in mind.

Zanch
10-31-2007, 10:38 AM
What incentive is there to prioritize PS3 development at this point? The userbase just isn't there yet. Devs shouldn't have to pay for Sony's poor design choices.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 10:38 AM
Since Sony doesn't pay for exclusives then Kojima doesn't have Konami's best financial interests in mind.
And if you believe that, I've got this bridge over here.....

AeroHudson
10-31-2007, 10:42 AM
I don't see this happening. A console doesn't become the lead platform because of programming differences. A console becomes the lead platform mainly with market share in mind. The 360 has more than twice as many units in the market and the software sells on the system far more than on the PS3. Developers choose the 360 as the lead platform to make more money by prioritizing the release on the platform that sells better and sells more copies of their game.

Other reasons why a console would be the lead is due to exclusivity obviously whether it be timing or full.

BioGeorg
10-31-2007, 10:43 AM
The question is if developers choose their lead sku for technical or commercial considerations (e.g. attach rate - http://www.joystiq.com/2007/10/31/360-leads-hardware-to-software-ratio-wii-and-ps3-trail-with-sim/ ).

Currently the 360 has an attach rate that beats any other console nearly 2:1. Taking the install base into account, that means for each PS3 game sold, there are 6.5 360 games sold.

Siraris
10-31-2007, 10:44 AM
This has been said numerous times in the past. So do it already guys.

menage
10-31-2007, 10:48 AM
As a developer, I'd want to make sure the game runs optimal on the console with the largest userbase first. Makes more sense I think.

KingGorilla
10-31-2007, 10:51 AM
Ah, so I can expect your next title to lead on the PC then?

Kamalot
10-31-2007, 10:51 AM
Currently the 360 has an attach rate that beats any other console nearly 2:1. Taking the install base into account, that means for each PS3 game sold, there are 6.5 360 games sold.These numbers tell a tremendous story.

oldjadedgamer
10-31-2007, 11:00 AM
This has been said numerous times in the past. So do it already guys.

Siraris has a point. Why talk about it? He's from Midway, Midway is a publisher. They should be making the announcement that they have started doing it rather then saying everyone else should.

Lead by example.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 11:03 AM
See, this is what I never understood. It seems to me that porting from 8 cores to 3 would be tougher than going from 3 to 8. Reducing concurrency in software is very hard.

Thats mostly because you ( and the vast majority of consumers ), don't really understand the Cell processor ( or the 360 processors for that matter ).

People like to think that the 7 cores of the CELL == 7 CPU's. Or, even the a cell is like a Intel Core Duo, just 8times instead of 2. This isnt really accurate. The Cell processor is basically 1 CPU with 6 vector units. The vector units are good for calculations only and have limited local storage. This means, traditional CPU tasks, like branching dont work well on a vector unit. Vector units excel at straight linear processing.

Darkman
10-31-2007, 11:05 AM
So the idea then is to make a half ass game because the PS3 has less memory and then port that game to 360. Even though the 360 has easily a 3 to 1 console advantage.

Exactly how is this best for the consumer or the games. I can see this with the last gen, but if Sony can't keep up hardware wise maybe its time for them to throw in the towel instead of developers having to cut corners when making their product.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 11:05 AM
Siraris has a point. Why talk about it? He's from Midway, Midway is a publisher. They should be making the announcement that they have started doing it rather then saying everyone else should.

Lead by example.

He is one member on a team of possibly 100. I think my company should give all its employee's Porsches. Doesn't mean fuckall at the end of the day, unless I am the guy with the power to actually make it happen.

Roc Ingersol
10-31-2007, 11:09 AM
it would definitely avoid surprise delays late in production.
but it's not like those technical problems would disappear.
they'd just be hidden by an overall-longer development schedule.

Hellstorm
10-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Meh, it's Midway. I would worry more about making a profit for the first time in like 5 years than on what is the lead platform. Also spending 35 million on Max Payne lite probably isn't smart either.

Vermillion
10-31-2007, 11:12 AM
All you are doing is spreading a smaller amount of programming delays across all platforms, instead of getting a single/two console version out the door and generating profit and having one lag behind the rest.

It makes some sense, but depends really on the profitability hit, the need for revenue, and what other titles may impact your release because you have to move your platform release around.

KingGorilla
10-31-2007, 11:14 AM
How about this, ever week, month, day spend on the PS3 delayed version is time, money, and effort taken away from patches and bonus content for everyone else.

Darkman
10-31-2007, 11:17 AM
Here is one of his quotes on this subject. My response is below.

"Whereas with the PS3 and the 360, it's certainly more of a level playing field, so I don't think it's necessarily a negative to put the PS3 first. But it does help mitigate some of that risk in framerate, memory, technology, just the hardware differences."

Here is where I call bullshit. Theses 2 machines are NOT the same, totally different memory setups, totally different processor architecture, totally different online strategies, totally different storage capacities. These are NOT the same 2 machines with small differences. So while the 360 has unified memory the PS3 doesn't. The problem is you can't put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

We as consumers should NOT SUPPORT titles across multiple platforms. Jack of all trades, Master of none. That holds true.

KingGorilla
10-31-2007, 11:19 AM
You are so adorable when you are an ignorant ass. Nah, ignorance implies not knowing, you are just being stupid.

DingBat
10-31-2007, 11:19 AM
The unspoken caveat of developing on the PS3 first is this: if the PS3 truly is more difficult to develop for then you're looking at a longer time until a game company can start getting sales.

For example, let's say that development of a game on the 360 takes 18 months and 24 months on the PS3. What we're proposing is that game developers swallow a six month hit where they could have been collecting sales. And this makes sense how?

That right there is enough to kill the idea of developing on the PS3 first.

Sandman
10-31-2007, 11:20 AM
Haven't I been saying it will take some (probably unexpected) third party to have a break through for PS3 third party titles to really shine? Didn't I say developers should stop cutting corners and start trying to come up with something that works and everyone gave me crap about it? Midway gets it. I'll be accepting apologies now.

Heretic Machine
10-31-2007, 11:25 AM
I don't get how making the PS3 the lead platform would help with this... Sure, if you're making multiplatform games it is easier to design for the one with the biggest handicap (according to them: 256mb of RAM in the PS3, as opposed to the 512mb in the 360), but what does that have to do with who is the leading platform?

jeffbax
10-31-2007, 11:26 AM
See, this is what I never understood. It seems to me that porting from 8 cores to 3 would be tougher than going from 3 to 8. Reducing concurrency in software is very hard.

I think the point of the SPEs is that you make sure all the work you give them is broken into very small 256k bits, so I imagine that writing code that breaks everything down into small pieces of processing is easier to translate from the PS3 to the 360 where the multiple general cores can still handle (and possibly benefit) from the tweaks done to process on SPEs.

Where if you start on 360, you don't have this tight focus and thus you come up with challenging porting to the PS3 which requires this mentality for any kind of performance.

And multiplatform games are fine, and often done great. It would be a horrible thing if all games were exclusive... and there would be a lot fewer games to boot. If DMC4 was still PS3 only I'd be pretty cranky.

CptTripps
10-31-2007, 11:26 AM
It seems to me that porting from 8 cores to 3 would be tougher than going from 3 to 8.

??? Your kidding right? If this was an OchoCore Intel then sure it may seem feasible, but they are a completely different tech.

Edit: damnit, missed post from serapth.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 11:26 AM
Haven't I been saying it will take some (probably unexpected) third party to have a break through for PS3 third party titles to really shine? Didn't I say developers should stop cutting corners and start trying to come up with something that works and everyone gave me crap about it? Midway gets it. I'll be accepting apologies now.

ur_Insane();

Arthen
10-31-2007, 11:31 AM
So trade delay of the entire product for delay of the lowest install base SKU. Oh thats rich.

Its one thing to miss out on 100,000 PS3 sales because you missed holiday for that SKU. Its a whole 'nother thing to miss Holiday entierly and lose ALL of your sales.

Mental note, if this guy has power at midway sell midway shares.

Goronmon
10-31-2007, 11:31 AM
The unspoken caveat of developing on the PS3 first is this: if the PS3 truly is more difficult to develop for then you're looking at a longer time until a game company can start getting sales.Unspoken? Me and some yellow guy made the same exact point earlier in this very thread. :p

Edit: I must be one of those weirdos who actually reads through a thread before posting or something.

NationalKato
10-31-2007, 11:32 AM
If this was an OchoCore Intel then sure it may seem feasible

Dude, I just got my OchoCore and it's sweeeet. Of course, Crysis still runs like shit unless I turn off the bells & whistles.

Shjinta
10-31-2007, 11:34 AM
Meh I'd rather be happy to see more games on the PS3

Mr.Green
10-31-2007, 11:34 AM
ur_Insane();

Not quite the word I had in mind.

Skampy
10-31-2007, 11:36 AM
I would have no problem seeing this implemented as long as the games quality for the 360 version don't suffer. We have seen what happens when bad ports happen (Madden 08 FTW) As long as the games get made with quality I don't care how it happens

Evil Avnovice
10-31-2007, 11:37 AM
ur_Insane();

no,heisn't (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38436). o_0

oldjadedgamer
10-31-2007, 11:49 AM
How about this, ever week, month, day spend on the PS3 delayed version is time, money, and effort taken away from patches and bonus content for everyone else.

Or do like Valve did with Orange Box and outsource it. They can keep chugging along while someone else fights with the PS3. They are done and can move on to other things.

Also, look at Epic with UT3. They are in the same boat and the PS3 is the lead SKU with that right? The PC version is gold yet the PS3 version still lingers. Has nothing to do with the 360.

Reanimated
10-31-2007, 11:53 AM
Or you could remove the PS3 versions entirely.
If making the PS3 version the lead delays the other SKU's then it's a lose lose proposition.




Exactly. Just abandon the ps3 and let it continue dying.

jeffbax
10-31-2007, 11:54 AM
Or do like Valve did with Orange Box and outsource it. They can keep chugging along while someone else fights with the PS3. They are done and can move on to other things.

Also, look at Epic with UT3. They are in the same boat and the PS3 is the lead SKU with that right? The PC version is gold yet the PS3 version still lingers. Has nothing to do with the 360.
PS3 is not the lead SKU for UT3 thats about the most most hilarious thing I've ever read :o

kronickidd
10-31-2007, 12:08 PM
Yeah, really. Why would you want to open up your sales to another market, anyway? :rolleyes:

because the attach rate on the ps3 is horrible and it takes more people to port the game over.... by the time it does release on ps3, the hype is gone... all the people who would have gotten the game, would already own it on another console. or just bought another game altogether...

Podfork
10-31-2007, 12:09 PM
These numbers tell a tremendous story.

Numbers don't tell any story. People interpret numbers based on the story they want to hear.

As for this guys comments all I know is that there is never enough memory. It doesn't matter what the hardware is.

kronickidd
10-31-2007, 12:12 PM
Ah, so I can expect your next title to lead on the PC then?

we're talking about consoles.... way to be outta left field

DingBat
10-31-2007, 12:12 PM
Unspoken? Me and some yellow guy made the same exact point earlier in this very thread. :p

Edit: I must be one of those weirdos who actually reads through a thread before posting or something.

Ah, my apologies. I did read through the thread but I must have had a brain fart or something.

Grimmjow
10-31-2007, 12:19 PM
It makes sense if it'll help alleviate delays. Most companies would value doing that, I'd think.

one would think so but it seems they have different motives.

PS. why the hell is my avatar not working!

Telefrog
10-31-2007, 12:20 PM
This would be the worst plan ever for game developers that want to actually make money.

In the worst case result would be an overall delay to all the SKU's while you wait on the lead to get done. The most likely result is that the SKU with the higher user base (360) gets the worse version because it wasn't the lead. If the PS3 is your lead SKU, then you would (as all game publishers do) put your A team on the lead and farm out the following SKU to your B team.

It's an idiotic plan that sounds good only in theory - like communism.

DylonCorp
10-31-2007, 12:23 PM
PS. why the hell is my avatar not working!

It's upset that you're using an old-ass Rap Skit joke for your title. ;)

As to the Midway developer, what he's saying makes perfect sense... for when they were developing for the PS2, XBox and GC.

You're living in the past, man!

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:23 PM
This would be the worst plan ever for game developers that want to actually make money.

In the worst case result would be an overall delay to all the SKU's while you wait on the lead to get done. The most likely result is that the SKU with the higher user base (360) gets the worse version because it wasn't the lead. If the PS3 is your lead SKU, then you would (as all game publishers do) put your A team on the lead and farm out the following SKU to your B team.

It's an idiotic plan that sounds good only in theory - like communism.
Actually, if you remember last gen, normally the XBOX version was superior to the PS2 version of a game, but I doubt that hurt sales of the PS2 game. If this gets both games out in a timely manner, with the quality of both being equal (re: one not suffering), then it's a good thing. You'll never sell the PS3 version of a game if it's always late and/or buggy.

Grimmjow
10-31-2007, 12:27 PM
It's upset that you're using an old-ass Rap Skit joke for your title. ;)

As to the Midway developer, what he's saying makes perfect sense... for when they were developing for the PS2, XBox and GC.

You're living in the past, man!

HAHAHA!

I love old Rap skits :)

Serapth
10-31-2007, 12:27 PM
Actually, if you remember last gen, normally the XBOX version was superior to the PS2 version of a game, but I doubt that hurt sales of the PS2 game. If this gets both games out in a timely manner, with the quality of both being equal (re: one not suffering), then it's a good thing. You'll never sell the PS3 version of a game if it's always late and/or buggy.

Actually, last gen there was tons of bitching because the Xbox version was crap because it was " just a ps2 port". As a 360 owner, I dont want to see that trend happen again. As far as I am concern, at this point, fuck the PS3.

Kamalot
10-31-2007, 12:29 PM
As far as I am concern, at this point, fuck the PS3.

Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:30 PM
Actually, last gen there was tons of bitching because the Xbox version was crap because it was " just a ps2 port". As a 360 owner, I dont want to see that trend happen again. As far as I am concern, at this point, fuck the PS3.
Well, it's great that you feel that way, really, but I'd rather see actual competition, especially since MS doesn't exactly focus on genres I tend to give a shit about.

And if there was bitching for that, it was misguided, as the XBOX version last gen was almost always a clearly superior product when compared to the PS2 version. There's a reason every multiplatform game I own from the last gen (save for SSX due to the control design) was on the XBOX.

Telefrog
10-31-2007, 12:31 PM
Actually, if you remember last gen, normally the XBOX version was superior to the PS2 version of a game, but I doubt that hurt sales of the PS2 game. If this gets both games out in a timely manner, with the quality of both being equal (re: one not suffering), then it's a good thing. You'll never sell the PS3 version of a game if it's always late and/or buggy.

The caveat here is that I don't think it's possible to get both out in a timely manner. The PS3 version of any 3rd party game will always take longer to get done. Moving that to the front of the cycle just delays both the PS3 and the 360 version. In fact, it will squeeze into the development time on the 360, hence the lower quality if you want to ship them concurrently.

Most publishers want to make money as soon as they can regardless of the developer's wish to delay.

BlackPete
10-31-2007, 12:32 PM
Actually, if you remember last gen, normally the XBOX version was superior to the PS2 version of a game, but I doubt that hurt sales of the PS2 game. If this gets both games out in a timely manner, with the quality of both being equal (re: one not suffering), then it's a good thing. You'll never sell the PS3 version of a game if it's always late and/or buggy.

The difference is that in the previous gen, the PS2 was the dominant platform, so even though it was more difficult to work with, it was still worth it to treat it as the lead SKU then port to the 360 with extra eye candy tacked on for extra cash.

Now? The 360 is the dominant platform, which also happens to be far more dev-friendly which results in significant time savings. Having PS3 support would be just extra cash on top of the main cashcow -- assuming that the 360 version is not adversely affected by the PS3.

You'd have to come up with a damn good reason to make a lead platform out of a SKU that's more difficult to work with and has the smaller userbase.

BlackPete
10-31-2007, 12:33 PM
Haven't I been saying it will take some (probably unexpected) third party to have a break through for PS3 third party titles to really shine? Didn't I say developers should stop cutting corners and start trying to come up with something that works and everyone gave me crap about it? Midway gets it. I'll be accepting apologies now.

Nope. You're still wrong. :)

DylonCorp
10-31-2007, 12:33 PM
Actually, last gen there was tons of bitching because the Xbox version was crap because it was " just a ps2 port".

But there was a reason that the PS2 games were the lead, despite the apparent hardware superiority of the Xbox. PS2 had the largest install base, so they developed for that console, then moved to the others.

JUST LIKE NOW. FLIP THE NAMES.

Edit: Oh. Hi Pete.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 12:34 PM
Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel.

Why beat around the bush. As a system, its a failure. As a gamer it offers me nothing I don't already have, it fragments the market and if people follow Midways example, it actually hurts games on my platform of choice.

Its the worst selling, worst priced with the worst selection of games. Every day as developers jump ship, the odds of any kind of recovery get smaller and smaller.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:34 PM
You'd have to come up with a damn good reason to make a lead platform out of a SKU that's more difficult to work with and has the smaller userbase.
I'd say the fact that both would be more likely to end up being a quality product would be a good motivater.

Now, is the assumption correct that the PS3 version will always take longer or is this something that should improve as better development tools come along?

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:37 PM
Why beat around the bush. As a system, its a failure. As a gamer it offers me nothing I don't already have, it fragments the market and if people follow Midways example, it actually hurts games on my platform of choice.

Its the worst selling, worst priced with the worst selection of games. Every day as developers jump ship, the odds of any kind of recovery get smaller and smaller.
You and I have completely different tastes in games there. Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over.

Cyndair
10-31-2007, 12:37 PM
Actually, last gen there was tons of bitching because the Xbox version was crap because it was " just a ps2 port". As a 360 owner, I dont want to see that trend happen again. As far as I am concern, at this point, fuck the PS3.

Also, last gen the Xbox was unquestionably a more powerful piece of hardware than the PS2. The 360 and PS3 are being called about equal in terms of power this generation so it really isn't a fair comparison.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 12:38 PM
Well, it's great that you feel that way, really, but I'd rather see actual competition, especially since MS doesn't exactly focus on genres I tend to give a shit about.

And if there was bitching for that, it was misguided, as the XBOX version last gen was almost always a clearly superior product when compared to the PS2 version. There's a reason every multiplatform game I own from the last gen (save for SSX due to the control design) was on the XBOX.

Thing is Gorvi, if Sony scraps the PS3, all the same games are still going to be made. Final Fantasy XVIV-a,b,c,d will all be made, just for the 360 instead. *GASP* even the Japanese might buy it. Granted, the Japanese arent really buying the PS3 either. As a gamer, nothing would really change, except you would have need for only one system ( and maybe a Wii ). Now, if Sony doesnt come out with a PS4, or Sega doesnt re-enter gaming... then I agree, the lack of competition would be bad. But, as it stands right now, the PS3 is pretty damned redundant. With the exception of Eye of Judgement, I havent seen as single PS3 specific trait.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 12:39 PM
You and I have completely different tastes in games there. Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over.

...say huh? So then, whats on the PS3 that is so special? The two platforms are almost identical in their focus.

Virtuoso
10-31-2007, 12:41 PM
Exactly. Just abandon the ps3 and let it continue dying.

I really hope you are joking. If you are a true gamer then you have to realize that more consoles = more games = good.

Also, the ps3, while pretty much game free, is a beautiful piece of hardware. I play my 360 more, but I still love my ps3.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:42 PM
Thing is Gorvi, if Sony scraps the PS3, all the same games are still going to be made. Final Fantasy XVIV-a,b,c,d will all be made, just for the 360 instead. *GASP* even the Japanese might buy it. Granted, the Japanese arent really buying the PS3 either. As a gamer, nothing would really change, except you would have need for only one system ( and maybe a Wii ). Now, if Sony doesnt come out with a PS4, or Sega doesnt re-enter gaming... then I agree, the lack of competition would be bad. But, as it stands right now, the PS3 is pretty damned redundant. With the exception of Eye of Judgement, I havent seen as single PS3 specific trait.
You could say the same exact thing about the 360, if that didn't exist, those games would still be made, just for the PS3. Maybe then more people would invest in a PS3. See how that works? You have a strong investment in the 360, so you'd like to see that be the sole platform so you'd have access to every game out there being made. It doesn' mean it's a good idea.

As a gamer, I prefer Sony's first party games. As a gamer, you appear to prefer Microsoft's first party games. There's nothing wrong with either.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:45 PM
...say huh? So then, whats on the PS3 that is so special? The two platforms are almost identical in their focus.
I'm not a big fan of how Microsoft pushes shooters and online competion so much. I'm a much bigger fan of single player games, personally. But that's what I like. Maybe if they'd have done more to actually push games like Blue Dragon or Eternal Sonata they would have done something to change my opinion on that, but they did nothing of the sort.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 12:47 PM
You could say the same exact thing about the 360, if that didn't exist, those games would still be made, just for the PS3. Maybe then more people would invest in a PS3. See how that works? You have a strong investment in the 360, so you'd like to see that be the sole platform so you'd have access to every game out there being made. It doesn' mean it's a good idea.

As a gamer, I prefer Sony's first party games. As a gamer, you appear to prefer Microsoft's first party games. There's nothing wrong with either.

You are completely right. The PS3 and Xbox 360 are almost completely interchangable. Except, the 360 has a bigger library, better online infrastructure, a years head start, is easier to develop for and apparently performs better.

Why have a second console that is just a weak sister of the market leader? I mean, if the Xbox (1) had launched and it was worse then or equal to the PS2 in just about every way, I would have wanted it to fail aswell.

As to first party games, I don't really care on either system. I honestly dont see alot of difference between their lineups ( except iam a big Forza fan ). The games I have sank the most time into have been 3rd party, and alot of them have been on both consoles ( R6:V, Oblivion, The Darkness, etc... ).

Mr.Green
10-31-2007, 12:49 PM
...say huh? So then, whats on the PS3 that is so special? The two platforms are almost identical in their focus.

Games have Sony printed on the box, and that's the genre Gorvi really likes.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 12:50 PM
I'm not a big fan of how Microsoft pushes shooters and online competion so much. I'm a much bigger fan of single player games, personally. But that's what I like. Maybe if they'd have done more to actually push games like Blue Dragon or Eternal Sonata they would have done something to change my opinion on that, but they did nothing of the sort.

Say huh? Eternal Sonata sure... granted, its a little obscure/fringe a title ( a music based RPG isnt going to get a huge marketing budget from either company ) but Blue Dragon... my god man, they put their full marketing muscle behind that one! Display stands at my local walmart, TV ads, tons of magazine ads, including many back cover ads.

While with Sony... I dont understand it, but it seems like 100 percent of their advertising budget is behind Heavenly Sword. Thanks to watching Chuck and Reaper, I have seen that same fucking commercial so many damned times.

Gorvi
10-31-2007, 12:52 PM
Say huh? Eternal Sonata sure... granted, its a little obscure/fringe a title ( a music based RPG isnt going to get a huge marketing budget from either company ) but Blue Dragon... my god man, they put their full marketing muscle behind that one! Display stands at my local walmart, TV ads, tons of magazine ads, including many back cover ads.

While with Sony... I dont understand it, but it seems like 100 percent of their advertising budget is behind Heavenly Sword. Thanks to watching Chuck and Reaper, I have seen that same fucking commercial so many damned times.
They advertiesed Blue Dragon? Man, I must have completely missed that, because I saw nothing but a few ads in magazines.

Meusli
10-31-2007, 12:52 PM
Did not help Epic with Unreal Tornament by developing it for the PS3 first.

Kamalot
10-31-2007, 12:56 PM
Did not help Epic with Unreal Tornament by developing it for the PS3 first.

So true. Even the PC version went gold before the 'lead platform' PS3 version.

BlackPete
10-31-2007, 01:11 PM
I'd say the fact that both would be more likely to end up being a quality product would be a good motivater.

Now, is the assumption correct that the PS3 version will always take longer or is this something that should improve as better development tools come along?

There's an old engineer joke that's not really a joke: You have the choice of time, quality, and money. Pick any two.

The PS3 may get better over time as more middleware comes out that hides most of the nastiness. However, that doesn't really help right now because they don't really exist yet. Even then, it won't completely solve all your problems because you still have to work within the system's constraints -- keep your assets optimized for the system's memory restrictions, whether they will be DMA'ed or just directly accessed, etc, etc.

The best example I can think of is Renderware (when it was still around). It helped ease a lot of pain, but it still didn't help when it comes to debugging. Debugging on a 360 is generally easier and quicker than on a PS3.

Occasionally middleware may actually get in your way since it's basically a black box. If something goes wrong... well, hope you have full access to its source code, otherwise you can't peek inside it.

Bottom line, while it may get easier, it will never be easy. And that doesn't really help you right now if you're working on a title that must ship this Xmas season.

oldjadedgamer
10-31-2007, 01:18 PM
I'm not a big fan of how Microsoft pushes shooters and online competion so much. I'm a much bigger fan of single player games, personally. But that's what I like. Maybe if they'd have done more to actually push games like Blue Dragon or Eternal Sonata they would have done something to change my opinion on that, but they did nothing of the sort.

I've found that people who prefer the PS3 over the 360 tend to be Anime or JPN game lovers who don't play online.

Edited to say, no offense to Gorvi but his comment does fit the mold exactly.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 01:20 PM
I've found that people who prefer the PS3 over the 360 tend to be Anime or JPN game lovers who don't play online.

Edited to say, no offense to Gorvi but his comment does fit the mold exactly.

Part I don't get about that is... there are more of those style games on the 360 then the PS3.

carnage11
10-31-2007, 01:24 PM
Why beat around the bush. As a system, its a failure. As a gamer it offers me nothing I don't already have, it fragments the market and if people follow Midways example, it actually hurts games on my platform of choice.

Its the worst selling, worst priced with the worst selection of games. Every day as developers jump ship, the odds of any kind of recovery get smaller and smaller.

Man I agree with everything you just said.

You and I have completely different tastes in games there. Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over.

and

They advertiesed Blue Dragon? Man, I must have completely missed that, because I saw nothing but a few ads in magazines.


Those two quotes prove that you're blind, or in desperate need of glasses.

Evil Avnovice
10-31-2007, 01:28 PM
You and I have completely different tastes in games there. Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over.

Depending on who you ask, the games may not be all that to some, but overall Xbox 360 has an extremely solid lineup of titles to choose from.

And some love online play and the ability to try demos before buying. That's all there is to it.

kronickidd
10-31-2007, 01:28 PM
Actually, last gen there was tons of bitching because the Xbox version was crap because it was " just a ps2 port". As a 360 owner, I dont want to see that trend happen again. As far as I am concern, at this point, fuck the PS3.

i second that ..


FUCK THE ps3

Goronmon
10-31-2007, 01:31 PM
i second that ..


FUCK THE ps3What the fuck Serapth? Look what you started! :mad:

Zecon
10-31-2007, 01:39 PM
I've found that people who prefer the PS3 over the 360 tend to be Anime or JPN game lovers who don't play online.

Edited to say, no offense to Gorvi but his comment does fit the mold exactly.

Personally I love my saturday night AS lineup (Naruto, Blood plus, and Bleach). But I prefer the 360 because it's got the games, not promises of potential that probably won't be realized anytime in the near future.

Kamalot
10-31-2007, 01:40 PM
What the fuck Serapth? Look what you started! :mad:

Serapth's a trend-setter. Before long, a buncha people will have "Fuck the PS3!" in their signature, in various colors of course. Everyone has to put their own spin on the meme.

Zecon
10-31-2007, 01:58 PM
Serapth's a trend-setter. Before long, a buncha people will have "Fuck the PS3!" in their signature, in various colors of course. Everyone has to put their own spin on the meme.

really? That's been my personal mantra for the past 2 years.

ElektroDragon
10-31-2007, 02:00 PM
This Midway developer is a HUGE FLAMING RETARD! The reason for the delays is because you're developing for DirectX APIs with XNA as opposed to Linux/OpenGL with custom APIs and tools... you can NOT get more wildly different! If PS3 were the lead platform, you'd just end up with big 360 delays. What an idiot.

Mal.Reynolds
10-31-2007, 02:58 PM
This Midway developer is a HUGE FLAMING RETARD! The reason for the delays is because you're developing for DirectX APIs with XNA as opposed to Linux/OpenGL with custom APIs and tools... you can NOT get more wildly different! If PS3 were the lead platform, you'd just end up with big 360 delays. What an idiot.

Not the 360's fault all your games SUCK midway

MrSatan
10-31-2007, 04:00 PM
Or you could remove the PS3 versions entirely.
If making the PS3 version the lead delays the other SKU's then it's a lose lose proposition.
What kind of lame ass pathetic Xbot fanboy comment is that.

Devs should always start on the most complicated architecture and scale down from there.

oldjadedgamer
10-31-2007, 04:03 PM
What kind of lame ass pathetic Xbot fanboy comment is that.

Devs should always start on the most complicated architecture and scale down from there.

The Sega Saturn would have loved you.

rein
10-31-2007, 04:27 PM
Why beat around the bush. As a system, its a failure. As a gamer it offers me nothing I don't already have, it fragments the market and if people follow Midways example, it actually hurts games on my platform of choice.

Its the worst selling, worst priced with the worst selection of games. Every day as developers jump ship, the odds of any kind of recovery get smaller and smaller.

Yes, life would be rosy if Sony went away and Microsoft dominated the market. They have my best interest at heart. :rolleyes:

Isamura
10-31-2007, 04:34 PM
Here's a better idea: think about the design challenges for the PS3 before you write your first line of code for the xbox.

I can sort of relate to this in my industry - it's like making a webpage for Internet Explorer, and then having to redo a bunch of stuff later to get it working in Firefox. It's best practice to realize these types of things before you begin.

Farsight
10-31-2007, 05:42 PM
This discussion is academic. No sane developer/publisher is going to make the #3 console their lead platform on a multiplatform title. If a choice had to be made between making the PS3 the lead or dropping the PS3 entirely, I'm certain most companies would just drop the PS3 (I know mine would).

Being third means you get 3rd priority. Sony has sold enough consoles to make doing a PS3 version an attractive option, as long as costs are low (ie ports). There are nowhere near enough PS3s to make risking the outcome of the 360 (or Wii even) version anything less than a braindead decision.

TrackZero
10-31-2007, 05:57 PM
It makes sense if it'll help alleviate delays. Most companies would value doing that, I'd think.

So instead of delaying the PS3 version, we delay the 360 one to wait for the PS3 one to get done at the same rate. Yeah, no thanks.

Kamalot
10-31-2007, 06:01 PM
So instead of delaying the PS3 version, we delay the 360 one to wait for the PS3 one to get done at the same rate. Yeah, no thanks.

We'd still be waiting for the Orange Box?!

TrackZero
10-31-2007, 06:09 PM
We'd still be waiting for the Orange Box?!

Answer: YES.

jeffbax
10-31-2007, 06:17 PM
Here's a better idea: think about the design challenges for the PS3 before you write your first line of code for the xbox.

I can sort of relate to this in my industry - it's like making a webpage for Internet Explorer, and then having to redo a bunch of stuff later to get it working in Firefox. It's best practice to realize these types of things before you begin.
That is a confusing analogy, because one usually codes for standard browsers first like Firefox, Safari, and Opera and then goes to fix all the bugs that occur in the much-broken Internet Exploder.

Serapth
10-31-2007, 06:21 PM
That is a confusing analogy, because one usually codes for standard browsers first like Firefox, Safari, and Opera and then goes to fix all the bugs that occur in the much-broken Internet Exploder.

You work in a much different environment then me. At my current job, its Intranet work so support IE and fuck the rest of the browsers. In past jobs, it was the market leader you developed for, then tweaked for the rest. When netscape was king ( 1996 ), we would dev for NS, then port to IE. After IE 4.5, that role changed and has never changed back. IE is 60%+ of the market, so people target to IE and tweak to fit other browsers.

Crenor
10-31-2007, 06:21 PM
What a dumbass. Do a PS3 only game, delay 1 year. Do a Xbox360 only game 0 delay...
PS3 means PS3 specific everything - people and hardware
360 means use a PC, get it done now with the same people.

Oh wait, do a PS3 version and +2 year delay... for a system that has yet to get a foothold...

Johan
10-31-2007, 06:26 PM
Stick a fork in the PS3...or push it off a damn cliff already. This is stupidity and ridiculousness.

And Gorvi: Give the 360 back, or pass it on to someone who would enjoy it.

Demo_Boy
10-31-2007, 06:27 PM
Here's a solid, real world example.

Your daily build finishes. You want QC to smoke test it.
X360: copy it from network to x360. You can do this with Windows Explorer and set up shortcuts on your desktop just like any network location.
Double click the executable, and voila the game launches on the 360. Wow so easy literally you can ask someone off the street to do it for you.
Later, anyone can walk up to the dev kit and choose the build from the 360 UI. No hassle.

On PS3, its copy it to your personal computer, run a software interface on your PC which links into your PS3 and feeds it the data off your computer. There's a bunch of line options and switches to set. These are not saved across user sessions. Oh by the way your software uses a dated serial key which expires frequently enough to place an operational load on your project manager. OK you are running it after some technical effort. No it is not very easy and much less people could learn this easily. Later, someone else walks up to the system and wants to use it - so sorry they need to use your computer to run the dev kit. Whaaa?? And this was the same with the PS2.

The only thing the 360 could do better is if you could edit txt files directly from its hard drive (to set configs and vars).

Net out: Developping on PS3 as lead sku slows you down on the front end and on the back end of development - harder to prototype and harder to finalize -- this can only slow down your whole dev process.

I almost wonder if it would be faster to dev a PS3 exclusive title on a 360 and port it at the end, due to less technical hassles.

If you read this far let me know, since I imagine none goes 5 pages deep and it would save me some typing next time.

Johan
10-31-2007, 06:31 PM
If you read this far let me know, since I imagine none goes 5 pages deep and it would save me some typing next time.

SDF: Assemble and deflect/attack! Demo_Boy must be biased/wrong/retarded/an MS plant!

Nice post, Demo_Boy.

DylonCorp
10-31-2007, 06:46 PM
Beautiful and Massive, like shitting emeralds after Thanksgiving.

I know almost nothing about programming or game design, but I followed almost all of your explanation. Great post.

Chainblast
10-31-2007, 06:54 PM
Thats great and all, but what happens if there's issues that delay the game on the PS3 when its the lead platform? 360 owners get the shaft too.

That's already happened a view times and will continue to happen with major releases regardless of what platform is the lead SKU. That's just the nature of a multi-platform market.

Isamura
10-31-2007, 08:47 PM
That is a confusing analogy, because one usually codes for standard browsers first like Firefox, Safari, and Opera and then goes to fix all the bugs that occur in the much-broken Internet Exploder.

Not where I'm from.

Schnoogs
11-01-2007, 12:01 AM
Yeah, really. Why would you want to open up your sales to another market, anyway? :rolleyes:

Not all markets are equal though. Do you roll your eyes at PC developers who have neglected Apple all these years? If the PS3 market is substantially smaller it seems prudent to focus on the larger Wii and 360 market instead.

Gorvi
11-01-2007, 01:33 AM
Stick a fork in the PS3...or push it off a damn cliff already. This is stupidity and ridiculousness.

And Gorvi: Give the 360 back, or pass it on to someone who would enjoy it.
Nice, your first comment makes you sound like just as much of an ass as the rest of the 360 fanboys around here.

As far as giving the 360 back, I do want the console, and I do enjoy it. Is it the be all end all of gaming like so many people around here make it out to be? Not even close. But it's a damn solid system. I just wish there were more games coming out for it that really grabbed my interest. Alan Wake seems to be that next game. If they start getting some of the PC RPGs over instead of just FPSs, I'd be in heaven, and totally in love with my 360.

DubiousQuality
11-01-2007, 04:06 AM
Nice, your first comment makes you sound like just as much of an ass as the rest of the 360 fanboys around here.

As far as giving the 360 back, I do want the console, and I do enjoy it. Is it the be all end all of gaming like so many people around here make it out to be? Not even close. But it's a damn solid system. I just wish there were more games coming out for it that really grabbed my interest. Alan Wake seems to be that next game. If they start getting some of the PC RPGs over instead of just FPSs, I'd be in heaven, and totally in love with my 360.

In comparison to the PS3 is IS the end all be all when it comes to games. It actually HAS GAMES! But because it doesn't have 30 highly marketed JRPG's Gorvi isn't impressed. I'm sure this isn't you're intention but thats the impression your posts have in this thread to me.

Gorvi
11-01-2007, 04:55 AM
In comparison to the PS3 is IS the end all be all when it comes to games. It actually HAS GAMES! But because it doesn't have 30 highly marketed JRPG's Gorvi isn't impressed. I'm sure this isn't you're intention but thats the impression your posts have in this thread to me.
Oh, hell, I don't even care if it's JRPGs. I'd be ecstatic to see some PC RPGs coming over to the 360, since they're appealing to me, but I just don't have the patience or cash to be a PC gamer. I'd love to see something like Hellgate London come over to the 360. Seriously, if that happened, I be in love with my 360. That's what I'd love to see Microsoft do, and something that disappoints me that they haven't done. The 360 is a fine system, with many good games, but for what I want, it's lacking those great games (Bioshock excluded, of course). And for the record, so is the PS3 for that matter.

The games I want this fall for the DS and PSP far outnumber what I see on both the 360 and PS3. But, again, I'm saying this from my own perspective, what I want out of gaming. I fully realize that that's not in line with what a lot of people want, and that's fine.

Johan
11-01-2007, 05:01 AM
Nice, your first comment makes you sound like just as much of an ass as the rest of the 360 fanboys around here.

Thank you! I have a fork I can bring...wanna have a cookout? :D

I'll pay for shipping on the 360, too...to me!

Kamalot
11-01-2007, 03:23 PM
As far as giving the 360 back, I do want the console, and I do enjoy it. Is it the be all end all of gaming like so many people around here make it out to be? Not even close.
It is difficult to believe you have given the 360 a fair evaluation and only managed to rack up 10 gamer points (http://www.evilavatar.com/index.php?pageid=leaderboard). Most games give you a healthy number of points for simply progressing through the title. I've never set out to 'collect' gamer points, but just by playing they are accumulated.

Serapth
11-01-2007, 03:30 PM
It is difficult to believe you have given the 360 a fair evaluation and only managed to rack up 10 gamer points (http://www.evilavatar.com/index.php?pageid=leaderboard). Most games give you a healthy number of points for simply progressing through the title. I've never set out to 'collect' gamer points, but just by playing they are accumulated.

This would be a good time to mention that EA NHL 08 is not one of such games!

I still dont have a fucking single gamerscore point from that bitch!

Micasa
11-01-2007, 03:33 PM
It is difficult to believe you have given the 360 a fair evaluation and only managed to rack up 10 gamer points (http://www.evilavatar.com/index.php?pageid=leaderboard). Most games give you a healthy number of points for simply progressing through the title. I've never set out to 'collect' gamer points, but just by playing they are accumulated.

To be fair, he's only played what...nine games? Eight of them are probably Xbox Live Arcade demos, so he couldn't get Achievements. The other was Lost Planet which, despite really wanting to play more, he apparently didn't get back into.

Kamalot
11-01-2007, 03:35 PM
This would be a good time to mention that EA NHL 08 is not one of such games!

I still dont have a fucking single gamerscore point from that bitch!

Your fault for playing EA Sports games on your 360. ;-)
I played one game of Team Fortress last night and got 2 achievements without even trying. Well, I was trying to win, but not specifically aiming for Achievements.

Kamalot
11-01-2007, 03:36 PM
To be fair, he's only played what...nine games? Eight of them are probably Xbox Live Arcade demos, so he couldn't get Achievements. The other was Lost Planet which, despite really wanting to play more, he apparently didn't get back into.

In your honest opinion, do you think that's a real and fair shakedown of what the Xbox 360 has to offer?

Micasa
11-01-2007, 03:42 PM
In your honest opinion, do you think that's a real and fair shakedown of what the Xbox 360 has to offer?

Of course not, but did you really expect him to actually buy any games or give the console a fair shake at all?

Micasa
11-01-2007, 03:50 PM
Having a 360 and not buying games for it is kinda like having someone give you a car for which you refuse to purchase fuel.

Just checking his post history would have told you that he'd never give the console a chance. If anything, I'd guess he rented Lost Planet. Hating the 360, whether he's a dyed-in-the-wool PS3 fanboy or it's just a gimmick act, is all he has. Did you think he'd give that up without a fight?

Given his post history, I'm surprised his 360 hasn't 'red ringed' already so he can complain about a terrible experience with getting it replaced. Maybe he didn't think it'd be believable yet.

Edit

0.o something's missing...

Gorvi
11-01-2007, 04:06 PM
Just checking his post history would have told you that he'd never give the console a chance. If anything, I'd guess he rented Lost Planet. Hating the 360, whether he's a dyed-in-the-wool PS3 fanboy or it's just a gimmick act, is all he has. Did you think he'd give that up without a fight?

Given his post history, I'm surprised his 360 hasn't 'red ringed' already so he can complain about a terrible experience with getting it replaced. Maybe he didn't think it'd be believable yet.

Edit

0.o something's missing...
Man, you really are a poor judge of character, aren't you? :rolleyes:

I haven't played Lost Planet much yet simply because I haven't had the time. My PS3 has been similarly ignored, with the exception of Ratchet in the past week. I've played quite a few 360 demos over the course of the last three weeks, and been impressed by a few I didn't think I would be (Tomb Raider, Overlord, and Dead Rising to name a few). I'll actually pick them up after the holidays as well, and if Mass Effect has a demo that impresses me, it may be a day one purchase if I can scrap the cash together.

Just because I wish Microsoft would release more games that I'd be excited about doesn't mean I hate them (however irrational an attitude like that would be). If they start getting some of the PC RPGs out for the system, the 360 will be used quite a bit.

Having a 9 month old son and working 55+ hour weeks has restricted most of my gaming time to the PSP (Jeanne d'Arc and now Disgaea) and DS (Etrian Odyssey and FF1). I'm sorry if I have other things in my life that take priority over gaming.

It's ok, though, ignore this post or write it off as a lie, I really don't care. Whatever helps you keep up that image of me being a biased Mircosoft hating Sony fanboy.

Kamalot
11-01-2007, 04:11 PM
Having a 9 month old son and working 55+ hour weeks has restricted most of my gaming time to the PSP (Jeanne d'Arc and now Disgaea) and DS (Etrian Odyssey and FF1). I'm sorry if I have other things in my life that take priority over gaming.

Posting on EvAv actually eats up a lot of my time. I'd probably get more game time if if I cut back, but EvAv IS my favorite game. :)

Edit: I'll admit that I'm pissed that you don't play more 360, but for purely greedy reasons. Team Fortress 2 would be hella fun with you.

Serapth
11-01-2007, 04:13 PM
Posting on EvAv actually eats up a lot of my time. I'd probably get more game time if if I cut back, but EvAv IS my favorite game. :)

Edit: I'll admit that I'm pissed that you don't play more 360, but for purely greedy reasons. Team Fortress 2 would be hella fun with you.

Mostly because everytime it seems like he is having fun, you can point laugh and say "told you so!".

Gorvi
11-01-2007, 04:15 PM
Posting on EvAv actually eats up a lot of my time. I'd probably get more game time if if I cut back, but EvAv IS my favorite game. :)

Edit: I'll admit that I'm pissed that you don't play more 360, but for purely greedy reasons. Team Fortress 2 would be hella fun with you.
Right now I'm waiting for the baby to finally nod off, so I really can't do much anyway. :p

And the TF2 thing may still happen. I'll gladly buy the 360 version if the PS3 version ends up being crap. And since it's EA doing it, well, yeah....

Micasa
11-01-2007, 05:19 PM
Man, you really are a poor judge of character, aren't you? :rolleyes:

I haven't played Lost Planet much yet simply because I haven't had the time. My PS3 has been similarly ignored, with the exception of Ratchet in the past week. I've played quite a few 360 demos over the course of the last three weeks, and been impressed by a few I didn't think I would be (Tomb Raider, Overlord, and Dead Rising to name a few). I'll actually pick them up after the holidays as well, and if Mass Effect has a demo that impresses me, it may be a day one purchase if I can scrap the cash together.

Just because I wish Microsoft would release more games that I'd be excited about doesn't mean I hate them (however irrational an attitude like that would be). If they start getting some of the PC RPGs out for the system, the 360 will be used quite a bit.

Having a 9 month old son and working 55+ hour weeks has restricted most of my gaming time to the PSP (Jeanne d'Arc and now Disgaea) and DS (Etrian Odyssey and FF1). I'm sorry if I have other things in my life that take priority over gaming.

It's ok, though, ignore this post or write it off as a lie, I really don't care. Whatever helps you keep up that image of me being a biased Mircosoft hating Sony fanboy.

Flip the scenario - someone who's been running down the PS3 forever wins one in a contest, then posts some cautiously optimistic impressions. Then a few weeks later they're back to the same old thing - bashing the PS3 and glorifying any 360 news they hear.

Now assume Sony has come up with an Achievements system of their own, and you notice that this person has played a grand total of ONE actual game, and only the first level of that. What do you think the outcome of their next thread would be?

Johan
11-01-2007, 05:49 PM
Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over.

It is difficult to believe you have given the 360 a fair evaluation and only managed to rack up 10 gamer points (http://www.evilavatar.com/index.php?pageid=leaderboard).

Whatever helps you keep up that image of me being a biased Mircosoft hating Sony fanboy.

...you notice that this person has played a grand total of ONE actual game, and only the first level of that. What do you think the outcome of their next thread would be?


Quite self-explanatory, really...the 360 sucks! :rolleyes:

And I believe we can finally put to bed the idea of objectivity, eh Gorvi? BTW: I have a book I read the first few pages of that just sucked...so I won't recommend it. In fact, I'm sure all the complete works of that author suck, as do all the other books under that company's purview!

*achoo*

I'm sorry; I'm allergic to bullshit, and you seem to be tracking it around in this thread. :D

Vanthar
11-01-2007, 06:16 PM
Quite self-explanatory, really...the 360 sucks! :rolleyes:

And I believe we can finally put to bed the idea of objectivity, eh Gorvi? BTW: I have a book I read the first few pages of that just sucked...so I won't recommend it. In fact, I'm sure all the complete works of that author suck, as do all the other books under that company's purview!

*achoo*

I'm sorry; I'm allergic to bullshit, and you seem to be tracking it around in this thread. :D

Why do you and a bunch of others want to force him to play genres that he's typically not interested in just so he can join you in praising the 360's library? He's playing games on the 360 that he: a) can afford and b) likes the genre. Criticizing him cuz he doesnt blow a ton of money on games he may not like seems pretty fucking ludicrous.

Schnoogs
11-01-2007, 06:20 PM
Why do you and a bunch of others want to force him to play genres that he's typically not interested in just so he can join you in praising the 360's library? He's playing games on the 360 that he: a) can afford and b) likes the genre. Criticizing him cuz he doesnt blow a ton of money on games he may not like seems pretty fucking ludicrous.

I thought people rediculed him because he's so anti-360.

Micasa
11-01-2007, 06:24 PM
Why do you and a bunch of others want to force him to play genres that he's typically not interested in just so he can join you in praising the 360's library? He's playing games on the 360 that he: a) can afford and b) likes the genre. Criticizing him cuz he doesnt blow a ton of money on games he may not like seems pretty fucking ludicrous.

He like JRPG, but has never tried Blue Dragon or Eternal Sonata? Instead he plays one level of Lost Planet and goes back to declaring the 360 a total failure?

Ludicrous? No more than his claims of being objective.

Honestly, he set himself up as the biggest supporter of the PS3 and then created a post about his impressions on the 360, after winning one, a year after its launch. If he wants to paint himself as a completely unbiased voice of reason and a paragon of virtue here, he should be open for criticism on his obviously still biased slant.

Schnoogs
11-01-2007, 06:38 PM
Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over.

Let's put things into perspective.

Using the power of achievements and Live (can you do that on the PS3?) I've determined the extent of Gorvis experience with the 360 from which he based his opinion on.

Doom
Fatal Fury Special
Ms. Pac Man
Castlevania
Marathon
Yaris
Lumines
E4
Lost Planet

I think it's safe to say that most of these were the demos and not even the full game.

I don't see any of the dozen or so MUST OWN games for the 360.

There's a reason you have yet to see why everyone is creaming their jeans. You really haven't played much and if in the process of downloading those demos you weren't hit square in the face with the superiority of the 360's online capabilities I don't think you're capable of ever understanding.

Vanthar
11-01-2007, 06:51 PM
He like JRPG, but has never tried Blue Dragon or Eternal Sonata? Instead he plays one level of Lost Planet and goes back to declaring the 360 a total failure?

Ludicrous? No more than his claims of being objective.

Honestly, he set himself up as the biggest supporter of the PS3 and then created a post about his impressions on the 360, after winning one, a year after its launch. If he wants to paint himself as a completely unbiased voice of reason and a paragon of virtue here, he should be open for criticism on his obviously still biased slant.

I really don't think saying that the system isn't the be all and end all of gaming is calling it a total failure. I think your really overreacting here because he didnt instantly fall in love with the system's library. Maybe he will play those games and start to love the 360 like you. He's not on a fuckin crusade to bring down the 360 like Kamalot did (and still does) with the PS3.

Gorvi
11-01-2007, 06:55 PM
It's too bad the 360 doesn't show the demos you've played, maybe people would stop overreacting then.....

Schnoogs
11-01-2007, 07:42 PM
It's too bad the 360 doesn't show the demos you've played, maybe people would stop overreacting then.....

It actually does. Most of the ones that show up for me are demos.

Schnoogs
11-01-2007, 07:43 PM
I really don't think saying that the system isn't the be all and end all of gaming is calling it a total failure. I think your really overreacting here because he didnt instantly fall in love with the system's library. Maybe he will play those games and start to love the 360 like you. He's not on a fuckin crusade to bring down the 360 like Kamalot did (and still does) with the PS3.

You're what's known as an enabler.

TeeCakes
11-01-2007, 07:45 PM
Quite self-explanatory, really...the 360 sucks! :rolleyes:

And I believe we can finally put to bed the idea of objectivity, eh Gorvi? BTW: I have a book I read the first few pages of that just sucked...so I won't recommend it. In fact, I'm sure all the complete works of that author suck, as do all the other books under that company's purview!

*achoo*

I'm sorry; I'm allergic to bullshit, and you seem to be tracking it around in this thread. :D

Jesus, you guys are giving Gorvi shit because he ACTUALLY GAVE 360 A CHANCE? He tried it, and found it lacking. Case closed. Stop calling him a biased fanboy, MS failed to entice an eager, willing gamer and it's really that simple.

Hazing non-Xbox converts over the fact that they have different (better?) tastes than you just powers the idea that it's a thin line between the SDF and a 'rational' 360 fan.

oldjadedgamer
11-01-2007, 07:58 PM
It actually does. Most of the ones that show up for me are demos.

He's talking about full game demos, they don't show up on your gamertag. I think he just went crazy with the XBLA demos since as a PS3 owner, he's stunned that you can actually try a downloadable game instead of being forced to blindly buy it just to even see the title screen.

Johan
11-01-2007, 08:02 PM
Jesus, you guys are giving Gorvi shit because he ACTUALLY GAVE 360 A CHANCE?

He got it for free; he tried it enough to get ten gamer points; he declared that "Having a 360 now, I really fail to see what everyone was creaming their jeans over."

So...he didn't give it a chance yet.

I don't give a shit who plays what system. Who the fuck cares; seriously. But I smell a pile of shit, and unlike yourself, I'm going to avoid sitting in it and making shit-angels. :D

He's talking about full game demos, they don't show up on your gamertag.

Ten gamer points speaks loud and clear...

I enjoy Gorvi's posts a lot, which is most likely more than most would say of mine...so he's certainly got that in his favor. But this is a bunch of stanky-butted, potty-pooped, diaper-crappy nose snot. I have enough kids to know it when I smell/see it. :D

Schnoogs
11-01-2007, 08:29 PM
He's talking about full game demos, .

Me too....

the soUL TRAder
11-01-2007, 08:47 PM
But I smell a pile of shit, and unlike yourself, I'm going to avoid sitting in it and making shit-angels. :D

Now we know why they call him "cakes".:D

Jack B
11-01-2007, 09:01 PM
You know Siraris certainly defended the hell out of Sony, but when he 'bought' a 360 it became obvious, that he just loved games. He' played both his 360 and his PS3 extensively.

He has over 6,000 gamerpoints to your 10. Your comments are a joke.

TheFlyingOrc
11-01-2007, 10:33 PM
Well, it's great that you feel that way, really, but I'd rather see actual competition, especially since MS doesn't exactly focus on genres I tend to give a shit about.

And if there was bitching for that, it was misguided, as the XBOX version last gen was almost always a clearly superior product when compared to the PS2 version. There's a reason every multiplatform game I own from the last gen (save for SSX due to the control design) was on the XBOX.

Really? What genres that you care about has Sony been addressing better than both Microsoft AND Nintendo? I'll wait.

NONE. The Sony you know and love is dead. The new Sony is a collection of old IPs, a handful of good developers, and none of the magic the PS2 had. They're the N64 all over again.

TheFlyingOrc
11-01-2007, 10:37 PM
You could say the same exact thing about the 360, if that didn't exist, those games would still be made, just for the PS3. Maybe then more people would invest in a PS3. See how that works? You have a strong investment in the 360, so you'd like to see that be the sole platform so you'd have access to every game out there being made. It doesn' mean it's a good idea.

I don't know about Serapth, but I DID say those things about the Xbox last generation. We didn't need it, and I hated it for existing (it pretty much killed the gamecube by not letting the cube be the most powerful system on the market). Big surprise, I hate Sony now. The market cannot adaquately support three platforms.

TheFlyingOrc
11-01-2007, 10:41 PM
i second that ..


FUCK THE ps3

http://i.somethingawful.com/fashion/tattooswat/18.jpg

TheFlyingOrc
11-01-2007, 10:48 PM
Really? What genres that you care about has Sony been addressing better than both Microsoft AND Nintendo? I'll wait.

NONE. The Sony you know and love is dead. The new Sony is a collection of old IPs, a handful of good developers, and none of the magic the PS2 had. They're the N64 all over again.
You really oughta get your stupid fanboy flamewar stuff outta this thread, man. It's immature and you're better than this.

oldjadedgamer
11-01-2007, 11:53 PM
Really? What genres that you care about has Sony been addressing better than both Microsoft AND Nintendo? I'll wait.

NONE. The Sony you know and love is dead. The new Sony is a collection of old IPs, a handful of good developers, and none of the magic the PS2 had. They're the N64 all over again.

What "magic" did the PS2 have besides an insanely large userbase that forced developers to make games for it if they wanted to make money?

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 01:30 AM
You know Siraris certainly defended the hell out of Sony, but when he 'bought' a 360 it became obvious, that he just loved games. He' played both his 360 and his PS3 extensively.

He has over 6,000 gamerpoints to your 10. Your comments are a joke.
My comment is a joke how, exactly? I've had the 360 for all of 3-4 weeks, and I've been very, very busy in that time period. Considering that I've spent more time with the 360 over the course of the past month playing demos than I have with the PS3 playing anything (all I've played through is Ratchet), you have no clue what the hell you're talking about, Jack. But that's the way things are normally, so why should I expect any change?

EDIT: Seriously, from the demos that I've played, the 360 doesn't seem like the second coming to me, is that so wrong? It's a good system, a solid system, but the library isn't exactly blowing me away right now with games that are great to me. Neither does the PS3's, before anyone gets that idea. I loved Bioshock, and will get it when I get a chance. I loved Tomb Raider Legends, Dead Rising, Prey, and Overlord as well, and I'll get those as soon as I can, too. Conversely, Crackdown just didn't feel right to me, it wasn't what I was expecting. Lost Planet as well just isn't what I thought it would be, but since I actually own it, I'll definitely be giving it more of a chance. Kameo, on the other hand, did not do a damn thing for me from the hour I played it this morning, and I'm not sure if I'll be going back to it at all. I will be buying Final Fantasy XI for the 360 when that comes out (full game + expansions) and you'll definately see me playing that a pretty good amount, where as now I pretty much can only play it on PS2. Has it not sunk in with anyone when I say that I get much more time to play games on portables as opposed to home consoles, generally speaking?

Shit, people, it doesn't take much to get your panties in a bunch, does it? It's a good system, just not the best ever. Really, what the hell is wrong with that statement?

EDIT 2:
Really? What genres that you care about has Sony been addressing better than both Microsoft AND Nintendo? I'll wait.

NONE. The Sony you know and love is dead. The new Sony is a collection of old IPs, a handful of good developers, and none of the magic the PS2 had. They're the N64 all over again.
Things like the deal with NC Soft for starters. That's something that Micorsoft should have done a while ago, and that alone would have sold me a 360 very easily once the games started to come out. I said it earlier and I'll say it again: I'd love to see Microsoft get deals together to bring more PC RPG franchises to the 360 and not dumb them down. Things like bringing out games like Jeanne d'Arc are another. They've also got Team ICO working on games that are almost gauranteed to be things that I'd like, if ICO and SotC are any indication.

Nintendo actually isn't doing a bad job by having things like Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, and the aquisition of Monolith (Xenosaga devs). I'd love to see them put out another Paper Mario RPG or just another Mario RPG in general, since I really, really enjoyed Thousand Year Door and the original Mario RPG.

Let me put this bluntly (and this isn't just directed at you, TFO, but a lot of people): My tastes ≠ your tastes. Look at my sig and see what I'm actually playing if you need a reminder.
It actually does. Most of the ones that show up for me are demos.
It shows XBLA trial games, but not disc based game demos.
He's talking about full game demos, they don't show up on your gamertag. I think he just went crazy with the XBLA demos since as a PS3 owner, he's stunned that you can actually try a downloadable game instead of being forced to blindly buy it just to even see the title screen.
I've downloaded nearly every XBLA trial game, I just haven't had the time to dig in to all of them. But yeah, that is a great feature, I love it.
Jesus, you guys are giving Gorvi shit because he ACTUALLY GAVE 360 A CHANCE? He tried it, and found it lacking. Case closed. Stop calling him a biased fanboy, MS failed to entice an eager, willing gamer and it's really that simple.

Hazing non-Xbox converts over the fact that they have different (better?) tastes than you just powers the idea that it's a thin line between the SDF and a 'rational' 360 fan.
Here's the thing: I didn't find it lacking. It doesn't have the library that I really want, but the system itself is great. There are a lot of good games I'd like to play, but so far, aside from Bioshock, it's lacking those "holy shit that's awesome" games for me (once again, something the PS3 doesn't exactly have either yet). Mass Effect may turn out to be one of those, though.
Quite self-explanatory, really...the 360 sucks! :rolleyes:

And I believe we can finally put to bed the idea of objectivity, eh Gorvi? BTW: I have a book I read the first few pages of that just sucked...so I won't recommend it. In fact, I'm sure all the complete works of that author suck, as do all the other books under that company's purview!

*achoo*

I'm sorry; I'm allergic to bullshit, and you seem to be tracking it around in this thread. :D
If you're allergic to bullshit, you may want to stay away from that post you just put up there. You didn't seem to have understood me before, so let me say it again: THE 360 IS A GOOD SYSTEM. So far only owning Kameo and Lost Planet, I haven't racked up any kind of a gamerscore yet, especially with the time that I've had and putting what time I do have into trying as many demos as I possibly can. And with Kameo, from what I've played so far, I don't think that's going to help it (the controls were frustrating). I'll give LP more playtime this weekend, so you'll see that 10 go up.

Johan
11-02-2007, 05:20 AM
You don't seem to have understood me before, so let me say it again: THE 360 IS A GOOD SYSTEM.

You're right; I didn't understand. You're a Microsoft fanboy, because the 360 is built like a piece of shit, so how could you say this? :D

BlackPete
11-02-2007, 08:56 AM
....

Damn Gorvi, you gotta stop putting in shades of grey between "It's the best system ever!!!" and "It sucks". It only confuses people. :(

I'm actually in the same boat. I want to love my 360 more, but there's far too many of the type of games I don't play anymore. The only game I'm really playing on the 360 these days is Eternal Sonata -- which btw I think you will definitely like (even if it's on the easy side).

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 08:59 AM
Damn Gorvi, you gotta stop putting in shades of grey between "It's the best system ever!!!" and "It sucks". It only confuses people. :(

I'm actually in the same boat. I want to love my 360 more, but there's far too many of the type of games I don't play anymore. The only game I'm really playing on the 360 these days is Eternal Sonata -- which btw I think you will definitely like (even if it's on the easy side).
Yeah, that grey is kinda hard to see, especially on this black background. ;)

Eternal Sonata is one demo I haven't tried yet. I've downloaded it, but I'm waiting on when my wife and I have some time to sit down with it, since I think it's a game she'd appreciate.

Micasa
11-02-2007, 09:00 AM
"Seriously, from the demos that I've played, the 360 doesn't seem like the second coming to me, is that so wrong? It's a good system, a solid system, but the library isn't exactly blowing me away right now with games that are great to me. Neither does the PS3's, before anyone gets that idea."

And yet you're constantly evangelizing the PS3, the more expensive system, though it also has no games, while you bash the 360. And you want to be taken seriously when you claim to be unbiased - because you won a 360 that you don't play?

I, in particular, just find it funny that you feel you're such an expert on 360 games that you can dismiss the library because a handful of demos didn't wow you. I also think that if you'd really given the machine a fair shake, you'd have known that we could look up what games you have or haven't played via your gamertag.

TheFlyingOrc
11-02-2007, 09:05 AM
Things like the deal with NC Soft for starters. That's something that Micorsoft should have done a while ago, and that alone would have sold me a 360 very easily once the games started to come out. I said it earlier and I'll say it again: I'd love to see Microsoft get deals together to bring more PC RPG franchises to the 360 and not dumb them down. Things like bringing out games like Jeanne d'Arc are another. They've also got Team ICO working on games that are almost gauranteed to be things that I'd like, if ICO and SotC are any indication.

Nintendo actually isn't doing a bad job by having things like Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, and the aquisition of Monolith (Xenosaga devs). I'd love to see them put out another Paper Mario RPG or just another Mario RPG in general, since I really, really enjoyed Thousand Year Door and the original Mario RPG.

Let me put this bluntly (and this isn't just directed at you, TFO, but a lot of people): My tastes ≠ your tastes. Look at my sig and see what I'm actually playing if you need a reminder.

So, Team Ico and MMOs is the answer to my question? I asked you to defend genres, not personal tastes. You also specifically avoided RPGs (which I know is one of your favorite genres) since Sony is clearly letting you down so far in that department (with no signs of major change not named FFXIII).

Everything Sony is doing, Microsoft or Nintendo is doing better.

Micasa
11-02-2007, 09:26 AM
Everything Sony is doing, Microsoft or Nintendo is doing better.

Not if you don't play the games they put out. If I've never played Forza, then sure...Gran Turismo is still the king of driving simulators. It's really quite an ingenious little way of wearing the blinders.

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 09:51 AM
So, Team Ico and MMOs is the answer to my question? I asked you to defend genres, not personal tastes. You also specifically avoided RPGs (which I know is one of your favorite genres) since Sony is clearly letting you down so far in that department (with no signs of major change not named FFXIII).

Everything Sony is doing, Microsoft or Nintendo is doing better.
Who's doing RPGs better, then? Certainly not Nintendo. Microsoft has Blue Dragon going for them, and really didn't care for that demo. Like I said before, I still need to try Eternal Sonata. Personally, I'm pretty damn excited about White Knight Story for the PS3, but I'm a big fan of what Level 5 has put out. Other than that, no next gen console has really done much of anything as far as RPGs. Even within that genre, I'm just being a lot more picky these days. There have been quite a few pretty good PS2 RPGs this year, yet the only one I've actually picked up was Rogue Galaxy at the beginning of the year (there's that pesky Level 5 again).

You were also asking about genres. Well, how about platformers? Nintendo has Mario (which is fantastic), Sony has Ratchet and hopefully will continue with Jak (both great), and Microsoft has...... Banjo? Maybe (as far as quality)?
Not if you don't play the games they put out. If I've never played Forza, then sure...Gran Turismo is still the king of driving simulators. It's really quite an ingenious little way of wearing the blinders.
I couldn't care any less about either game, but you'd know that if you were paying attention.
And yet you're constantly evangelizing the PS3, the more expensive system, though it also has no games, while you bash the 360. And you want to be taken seriously when you claim to be unbiased - because you won a 360 that you don't play?

I, in particular, just find it funny that you feel you're such an expert on 360 games that you can dismiss the library because a handful of demos didn't wow you. I also think that if you'd really given the machine a fair shake, you'd have known that we could look up what games you have or haven't played via your gamertag.
When am I bashing the 360 exactly? Please, show me, I'd love to see it. Just because I'm not head over heals for the console does not mean I'm bashing it. You say I don't play it, that's nice. Do you know how much time I'm able to spend with my PS3? On average, not much more. But, once again, that would require being able to read and seeing that I've said time and again that I have much more opportunity on average to play portables. I was playing Kameo this morning, actually, did you see that?

Also, so now a demo isn't a good indication of what a game is like? And only a few? I've played most every demo you can download for the 360 aside from a few I'm waiting on my wife to try and the sports games (which I couldn't care less about).

And really, stop using the past tense, I still have the console and still do use it.

Why not make a constructive suggestion on what I should be playing then, other than the games I've already expressed interest in?

EDIT: Once again, for those who really have a tough time reading: I'm not saying "Microsoft sucks", I'm not saying "the 360 sucks", I'm saying that they're not catering to me with more games that I'd want. Give me a Crimson Skies sequel. Give me a Mech Assault sequel. Bring over the PC RPGs (MMOs included). Give me adventure games (Alan Wake is looking to be a damn good start). Give me platformers (but not from Rare, I have no faith in them). Give me stealth games (not Splinter Cell, I've never cared for the series). Give me SRPGs. There's no reason why they can't do that. I'm not part of the demographic they're targeting, but there's no reason why I can't be.

Kamalot
11-02-2007, 10:20 AM
Yeah, that grey is kinda hard to see, especially on this black background. ;)

Eternal Sonata is one demo I haven't tried yet. I've downloaded it, but I'm waiting on when my wife and I have some time to sit down with it, since I think it's a game she'd appreciate.

And Eternal Sonata has Co-Op!

"Y" button menu > Options > Right-Bumper > (make sure you have controller 2 on) > Switch character control to the 2nd player.

Also, so now a demo isn't a good indication of what a game is like? And only a few? I've played most every demo you can download for the 360 aside from a few I'm waiting on my wife to try and the sports games (which I couldn't care less about).Actually, depending on the demo some demos are not very good representations of an entire game. I remember someone saying the same thing about Folklore... ;)

Props on the correct use of 'couldn't care less'. Although, I'm a little sad you used it properly... I wanted to see Fitbabits in here flipping out over it. :D

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 10:22 AM
And Eternal Sonata has Co-Op!

"Y" button menu > Options > Right-Bumper > (make sure you have controller 2 on) > Switch character control to the 2nd player.
Which totally kicks ass. Seriously, I'm tempted to buy the game right now sight unseen just for that. Not enough games have local co-op, especially games like that.
Actually, depending on the demo some demos are not very good representations of an entire game. I remember someone saying the same thing about Folklore... ;)
Very true, there are plenty like that. It's a good thing that most of the demos on LIVE are meaty enough so that they do give a pretty good impression as to what the game is really like. With the possible exception of Blue Dragon, from what I've been told. :)

TheFlyingOrc
11-02-2007, 10:30 AM
Who's doing RPGs better, then? Certainly not Nintendo. Microsoft has Blue Dragon going for them, and really didn't care for that demo. Like I said before, I still need to try Eternal Sonata. Personally, I'm pretty damn excited about White Knight Story for the PS3, but I'm a big fan of what Level 5 has put out. Other than that, no next gen console has really done much of anything as far as RPGs. Even within that genre, I'm just being a lot more picky these days. There have been quite a few pretty good PS2 RPGs this year, yet the only one I've actually picked up was Rogue Galaxy at the beginning of the year (there's that pesky Level 5 again).

I gave you an OR statement, which you sidestepped several times.

Also - Stealth games? How many stealth game series even exist? You're just saying "I LIEK METAL GEER". Nintendo will have more platformers, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it will have the most jRPGs by early 2009.

What single thing is Sony doing that no part of the competition is doing better?

Kamalot
11-02-2007, 10:30 AM
Which totally kicks ass. Seriously, I'm tempted to buy the game right now sight unseen just for that. Not enough games have local co-op, especially games like that.

Very true, there are plenty like that. It's a good thing that most of the demos on LIVE are meaty enough so that they do give a pretty good impression as to what the game is really like. With the possible exception of Blue Dragon, from what I've been told. :)

Yeah. I was completely sold on Blue Dragon, until I played the demo. I've been told that the demo is a very poor representation of the final game, but I can't bring myself to play it after the awful 'demo aftertaste'.

Also, I've got a free 1-month GameFly trial code that I'm more than happy to give you if you like. That way you can try more titles and we can hook up online.

Kamalot
11-02-2007, 10:31 AM
What single thing is Sony doing that no part of the competition is doing better?

Folding @ Home

Duh!:rolleyes:

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 10:35 AM
I gave you an OR statement, which you sidestepped several times.

Also - Stealth games? How many stealth game series even exist? You're just saying "I LIEK METAL GEER". Nintendo will have more platformers, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it will have the most jRPGs by early 2009.

What single thing is Sony doing that no part of the competition is doing better?
Thief (I have the game on the original XBOX), Hitman (I know the 360 had a last gen port) and I know there are others that are eluding me right now.

I'd say they're still going to be doing RPGs better, in the same way that the PSP is doing those better than the DS with a smaller install base.

As far as what they're doing better right now? Not much. Then again (and I've said this before), I'm not exactly ecstatic about what any of the home consoles are doing right now.

Really, man, I put a pretty good list in there of what I'd like to see Microsoft do. All you could think of to do was pick on me saying "stealth games"? Believe me, if you want me to do a list of the same kind for Sony, I could do that to, because they're far from perfect.
Also, I've got a free 1-month GameFly trial code that I'm more than happy to give you if you like. That way you can try more titles and we can hook up online.
That would be wonderful.

Kamalot
11-02-2007, 10:41 AM
I'd say they're still going to be doing RPGs better...I'd wait on that one personally. Already the 360 has more RPGs and more JRPGS than the PS3 has. This generation is VERY different than the PS1 / PS2 era. I remember when getting great JRPGs meant buying a Nintendo. Typically, JRPGs go to the system with the biggest install base, which will NOT be the Playstation this generation.
That would be wonderful.No problemo. Lemmie see if I can find it when I get home tonight.

TheFlyingOrc
11-02-2007, 10:44 AM
I'd wait on that one personally. Already the 360 has more RPGs and more JRPGS than the PS3 has. This generation is VERY different than the PS1 / PS2 era. I remember when getting great JRPGs meant buying a Nintendo. Typically, JRPGs go to the system with the biggest install base, which will NOT be the Playstation this generation.

JAPANESE install base - and I don't think it is quite the same as the PSP vs DS, as the Wii can handle any gameplay elements that its Sony competitor can, unlike the DS. However, I believe the Wii is beating down the PS3 in Japan even more than the DS is beating the PSP.

No problemo. Lemmie see if I can find it when I get home tonight.
I need to play both of you guys sometime.

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 10:45 AM
I'd wait on that one personally. Already the 360 has more RPGs and more JRPGS than the PS3 has. This generation is VERY different than the PS1 / PS2 era. I remember when getting great JRPGs meant buying a Nintendo. Typically, JRPGs go to the system with the biggest install base, which will NOT be the Playstation this generation.
This generation is a bit odd for that though. You're not seeing a huge RPG influx to the DS (DQIX aside) and the PSP is getting quite a bit of love in that area, so the install base argument isn't really the best for that. With the 360, the thing is practically dead in Japan, the target market for those JRPGs. I'd say it's fairly up in the air at this point, there's a pretty good argument against all 3 as far as getting those games.
No problemo. Lemmie see if I can find it when I get home tonight.
Much appreciated. I've been meaning to get an account, and that'll be a good kick in the ass to do it. :)

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 10:48 AM
JAPANESE install base - and I don't think it is quite the same as the PSP vs DS, as the Wii can handle any gameplay elements that its Sony competitor can, unlike the DS. However, I believe the Wii is beating down the PS3 in Japan even more than the DS is beating the PSP.
I think it's much more about the perceived market than it is about the hardware. The DS can do 2D just fine, and there's nothing wrong with 2D RPGs. As far as numbers, I think the PSP : DS and PS3 : Wii ratios are about the same.

Serapth
11-02-2007, 10:49 AM
With the 360, the thing is practically dead in Japan, the target market for those JRPGs.

So is the PS3 though. All the quirky wierd as fuck "only in japan" rpgs are going to be on the Wii or on handhelds. Mega RPGs like FF, DQ etc, will go to whoever has the biggest marketshare in the end.

BlackPete
11-02-2007, 11:01 AM
Yeah. I was completely sold on Blue Dragon, until I played the demo. I've been told that the demo is a very poor representation of the final game, but I can't bring myself to play it after the awful 'demo aftertaste'.

Ditto -- and I'm a major RPG nut. That demo was just... ugh. I can't bring myself to try the full game until it hits the $20 bargain bin (or $5 with the way the CDN dollar is going these days...)

I seriously hope Mass Effect sells like gangbusters to kick publishers into making more RPGs or at least take the genre more seriously instead of creating YAFPS.

oldjadedgamer
11-02-2007, 11:03 AM
So is the PS3 though. All the quirky wierd as fuck "only in japan" rpgs are going to be on the Wii or on handhelds. Mega RPGs like FF, DQ etc, will go to whoever has the biggest marketshare in the end.

Even Gorvi's favorite Level 5 has expressed interest in making Wii games and they have a huge stable of DS games already in development.

Japan is now and always has been a one console nation.

Gorvi
11-02-2007, 11:06 AM
Even Gorvi's favorite Level 5 has expressed interest in making Wii games and they have a huge stable of DS games already in development.

Japan is now and always has been a one console nation.
It'd be interesting to see what they could do with the Wii, and if I don't already have a Wii by the time their game comes out (assuming they actually make a Wii game), I'll buy it for them. I'm already planning on getting the first Professor Layton game that's coming out here in February on the DS, and more than likely it's two planned sequels. Hell, I'd even get their soccer RPG simply because I haven't been let down by a Level 5 game yet.

The most disappointing thing about last gen was their XBOX MMO (True Fantasy Online) being canceled.

Serapth
11-02-2007, 11:11 AM
The most disappointing thing about last gen was their XBOX MMO (True Fantasy Online) being canceled.

That always struck me as odd. I think there is a story there that we just arent being told.