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View Full Version : Ex-Harmonix Developer Has Words For PS3.


Telefrog
10-26-2007, 09:25 AM
Jason Booth, a former designer at Harmonix, has some pretty harsh words (http://jbooth.blogspot.com/2007/10/ps3-misconceptions-and-spin.html) for the PS3 and explains why he thinks it will continue to have sub-par ports and developer difficulties.

The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future. These issues all stem from unbalanced hardware design, and any future hardware that is this unbalanced will likely be unbalanced in a completely unique way.

Finally, there's the problem of resources. Game Development is, at it's heart, a resource management challenge. Given finite resources, do I have these five engineers work on optimizing the PS3 version to look better, or do I use them to make the game play better and fix bugs? Do I change my design to fit with what the PS3 hardware does well, or simply run the game at a slightly lower resolution on the PS3 to make up for it? Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process.

We've seen this type of PS3 criticism before, but this is coming from someone that worked on Guitar Hero, Guitar Hero II, and Rock Band. It's a blog post, so is it newsworthy? I think so.

Nura
10-26-2007, 09:34 AM
Damn, i really want the PS3 to succeed ( cant have too many consoles imo, well yea, but you know.. ) but it seems like sony didn't get it right at all :/

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 09:35 AM
Nothing we haven't heard before.

violentp
10-26-2007, 09:37 AM
Nothing we haven't heard before.

Thank you. I was gonna come in here and say "Is it a new week already?" but yours was better.

Telefrog
10-26-2007, 09:37 AM
Sorry about the first version, Mods. I got all discombobulated and forgot to uncheck the dreaded "disable signature" box.

On topic: Just more fuel for the fire. I couldn't resist.

Gorvi
10-26-2007, 09:37 AM
So he's saying it's different and the things you do differently are only useful on the PS3? Isn't that exactly the gist of what Gabe was saying?

NeoSuplex
10-26-2007, 09:45 AM
Actually, I'm kind of glad for this one. No one's been quite this specific before.

Kweli
10-26-2007, 09:46 AM
This is almost like an election... You have to pick the best of two evils

PS3 - Everyone complains about it, no good games (at the present time)
or
X360 - Unreliable, but seems to be picking up steam



I just want to play good games...

rein
10-26-2007, 09:47 AM
yawn......

violentp
10-26-2007, 09:48 AM
Between Ratchet, EoJ and Prologue, the PS3 is getting more playtime than my 360 these days.

teksama
10-26-2007, 09:48 AM
The Cell doesn't make since and this is more proof it. Sony made a bad choice and my games pay the price. I would have rather had 7 physics or graphics processors then the damn DSPs (and low memory bandwidth). And where is my DVR functionality?

Telefrog
10-26-2007, 09:49 AM
This is almost like an election... You have to pick the best of two evils

PS3 - Everyone complains about it, no good games (at the present time)
or
X360 - Unreliable, but seems to be picking up steam

I just want to play good games...

Or Wii - Take your chances on 3rd party games. :D

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 09:49 AM
Although, to actually add some discussion:

The problem is, at the core, that Sony designed their system in a way that depends on it dominating the market. You will have no problem having the hardest to code on system as long as developers have to use it - over time, the tricks will become more well known and developers will have more experience with them. This has the added bonus of making it difficult to port your games to competitors.

However, this is assuming that developers are obligated to develop for your machine during the first year or two. They are not this time around.

Again, their whole business model crumples under the stupid price, which was controlled by BluRay. Without the BluRay player having to compete with HD-DVD, they could have released this year, one SKU, $400, and all the other problems would just melt away. The system would have sold like crazy on release, and developers would be nearly forced to make games on it, making these complaints just never happen in the first place.

Sandman
10-26-2007, 09:51 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

Chris_D
10-26-2007, 09:51 AM
Considering the nature of the PS3 architecture this is something that most people have realised already. Good middleware is the solution, you want to avoid solving the same problems over and over. Hopefully Epic and the other providers can get their shit straight soon if they haven't already.

KingGorilla
10-26-2007, 09:53 AM
The more I hear developers talk about PS3 the more I think about the Saturn.

WastelandDan
10-26-2007, 09:55 AM
Between Ratchet, EoJ and Prologue, the PS3 is getting more playtime than my 360 these days.

just wait until November!

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 09:55 AM
Between Ratchet, EoJ and Prologue, the PS3 is getting more playtime than my 360 these days.
I'm going to give you a hint.

NOBODY cares about EoJ.

Johan
10-26-2007, 09:58 AM
What does he know anyways?

*hee hee!*

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 09:59 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.
Goodness, this is a stupid post.

If they have to WORK MORE, they will make LESS MONEY. They aren't obligated to make games for you.

Kamalot
10-26-2007, 10:00 AM
Although, to actually add some discussion:

The problem is, at the core, that Sony designed their system in a way that depends on it dominating the market. You will have no problem having the hardest to code on system as long as developers have to use it - over time, the tricks will become more well known and developers will have more experience with them. This has the added bonus of making it difficult to port your games to competitors.

However, this is assuming that developers are obligated to develop for your machine during the first year or two. They are not this time around.

Again, their whole business model crumples under the stupid price, which was controlled by BluRay. Without the BluRay player having to compete with HD-DVD, they could have released this year, one SKU, $400, and all the other problems would just melt away. The system would have sold like crazy on release, and developers would be nearly forced to make games on it, making these complaints just never happen in the first place.

If I could send you a cookie, I would. You sir, have wrapped things up into a nutshell quite nicely. :D

Developers have choice, and they aren't forced to code for a difficult platform with a low install base. I love seeing people complain that developers are lazy when it really comes down to business. Making games isn't simply a hobby that they embark on for giggles. They need to hit deadlines, be efficient and be profitable so they can make more games. The easier the hardware is to develop for, the more quickly their visions can be realized and the more profitable they can become.

Gabe Newell basically said the same thing, and the Sony fanbase came out of the woodwork in an attempt to discredit him, even going so far as to make fun of his physical size. In doing so, they only came off as closed-minded toenail munchers.

Kweli
10-26-2007, 10:00 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

I dont think you read his article... I think your just reusing the same comments for all other Sony Bashes

He never said PS3 is hard to code for... (which would allow you to call him lazy)

He said PS3 is inefficient compared to the competition

AeroHudson
10-26-2007, 10:00 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Developers aren't being lazy...they only have so many resources and so many dollars to develop their games. They have to make tough decisions on how to spend those dollars. Do they sacrifice what their vision is for the game experience to get it to look a little better on one of the platforms or focus those resources on achieving their vision while not optimizing on the harder platform to program for?

At the end of the day they have to make a choice since resources and money are finite. If I were the dev I would make the same call. The vision for my game is paramount while a slight performance drop on one platform is acceptable.

Lima Beans
10-26-2007, 10:01 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

/Massive eyeroll

Interesting that you bring the 360 and Wii into this, you hear a lot of developers bitching about them?

Really, fuck this attitude, I work long hours, and bust my ass, I can bitch about difficult to work with technology all I want, ive earned that right. I dont know Gabe, but you extended this to all developers who have complained about this is bullshit, especially when many of his points are completely accurate.

He did fail to mention the (few) advantages ps3 dev has over 360 though.

The Continental
10-26-2007, 10:02 AM
20+ posts in and still no doom image macro. Y'all is slippin'.

Telefrog
10-26-2007, 10:03 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

As a business, why should you work harder to sell less games? Why put forth the effort to "figure out the 'tricks'" of the PS3, when there is a much easier alternative that has a much larger user base and a proven record of software sales?

He's not saying the developers can't do it, he's illustrating why it's difficult and how that difficulty makes it a losing proposition to develop for the PS3 with the way things are now.

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:05 AM
20+ posts in and still no doom image macro. Y'all is slippin'.
Don't tell me how to do my job.

carnage11
10-26-2007, 10:06 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.


I don't think it's because they're lazy. It's more about resources. Many game developers have limited resources and to get a game out on time takes strict management of resources. Developers want their games to go out with as little bugs as possible. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some things for others when you're on a strict schedule. The fact that a lot of PS3 games are getting pushed back only means that developers aren't getting things done as fast as they'd like. When you work on a game for nearly 4 years you really don't want to have to push it back even longer. The quicker they can get it out and start making money the better. Somethings got to pay for all the man hours spent. Unfortunately right now the PS3 is not helping to pay bills. The simple fact that some retailers are cutting cost of PS3 shows that they are just trying to get at least some of their money back. No one wants to spend time, especially extra time to develop for a system that's not gonna make them money back in return. So from a management stand point, a developer would want to make the game for the system that sells and is easy to develop for. ie. PC, 360, hell even the Wii at this point.

KingGorilla
10-26-2007, 10:07 AM
Don't tell me how to do my job.

If you would do your fucking job, then we would not have to. That HR review is coming up, remember?

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:07 AM
Haha like 9 people came to this thread to tell Sandman how wrong he is.

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:09 AM
If you would do your fucking job, then we would not have to. That HR review is coming up, remember?
Oh, no, if I don't get my numbers up, I'm http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/theflyingorc/DrDoomChap.gif

Wait...now they're up again.

asimonk
10-26-2007, 10:10 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

This post shows you clearly lack any understanding of software development process or software in general. I'd be willing to bet you also have a similar lack of understanding of business, deadlines, financial implications or common sense.

BioGeorg
10-26-2007, 10:11 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.
Game developers are notoriously lazy. They work much less than their 'business' counterparts, don't have crunch, no harsh deadlines to meet and in general just slack around. :p. Yes, that's it.

See, if these lazy bastards would would just work harder, there would be a million games even for systems that don't have a critical mass on the market (I would love to see some C64 or Vic20 titles personally).

I mean really, why would developers even think about NOT making games for game systems with rather low install bases that require your engineers to ignore their development experience and spend development time to massage titles to work with the hardware.

Why are they instead are wasting their time to work on titles that are take few resources to create but sell well to a large install base or to a system with a significant install base, mature tools and a successful pipeline for additional digital content that can easily ported to another system with a huge install base.

I mean seriously, WTF is that? I really don't understand what these lazy bums are doing all day. Don't they see how wrong that all is.
:p

Rafer
10-26-2007, 10:11 AM
The only criticism that really throws me off is of Blu-Ray. His argument could be reversed ("DVDs have a faster read time but you don't have room to repeat assets and that increases seek times, so the extra speed of DVD is completely wasted.") and even if they took out the Blu-ray drive (the KES-400aaa is what, $60-$80?) and replaced it with a DVD they would still have a console that is expensive to manufacture and difficult to program for.

Beelzebud
10-26-2007, 10:11 AM
Although, to actually add some discussion:

The problem is, at the core, that Sony designed their system in a way that depends on it dominating the market. You will have no problem having the hardest to code on system as long as developers have to use it - over time, the tricks will become more well known and developers will have more experience with them. This has the added bonus of making it difficult to port your games to competitors.

However, this is assuming that developers are obligated to develop for your machine during the first year or two. They are not this time around.

Again, their whole business model crumples under the stupid price, which was controlled by BluRay. Without the BluRay player having to compete with HD-DVD, they could have released this year, one SKU, $400, and all the other problems would just melt away. The system would have sold like crazy on release, and developers would be nearly forced to make games on it, making these complaints just never happen in the first place.

You've summed it up well. I've said for a while that PS3 really reminds me of the Sega Saturn. I say that, with the knowledge that like the PS3, the Saturn was notorious for being difficult to develop for. Sega was counting on their market dominance, at the time, to force people to learn their new system. We all know how that turned out for Sega.

While I don't think Sony is in the same place Sega was, I think they have their "Saturn" console in the PS3.

Johan
10-26-2007, 10:15 AM
I have my own meme to describe these endlessly cyclical threads!

http://www.energizer.com/images/bunny/BnyBigBunny_img.jpg

compta
10-26-2007, 10:16 AM
Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

According to this ex-developer, the PS3's "tricks" cause the game to suffer; he cares more about that than anything else.

Quote:
"Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process."

Food Nipple
10-26-2007, 10:17 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

Guitar Hero was a huge success because the idea behind the game was so brilliant, not because of the technical chops of the team. If I've got a great idea for a game, I want to spend as much time as possible honing the creative side of the idea, and as little time as possible sorting out the technical ideas of implementing it.

This guy's words carry a lot more weight than any similar criticisms made by the likes of Gabe Newell. There's a very real chance that this guy's next project won't have a PS3 version because it's not worth all the added effort. You might call that "laziness," but to me it sounds like a smart creative decision.

NeoSuplex
10-26-2007, 10:18 AM
Although, to actually add some discussion:

The problem is, at the core, that Sony designed their system in a way that depends on it dominating the market. You will have no problem having the hardest to code on system as long as developers have to use it - over time, the tricks will become more well known and developers will have more experience with them. This has the added bonus of making it difficult to port your games to competitors.

There's a small problem with that logic. First of all, this is a total guess, but the hardware difficulties don't seem to be by design. From what I've heard about the system, the centerpiece is the Cell and Blu-Ray and they skimped on everything else. Thus, the system has a comparatively weak graphics processor and some memory problems as a result of cost, not some conniving developer lock in scheme.

Secondly, it's not that the system's hard to code for... It's hard to make games visually comparable to the 360 using the CPU Centric system. Thus, it's actually not hard to port games over to competitors. Visually, you're porting to a superior GPU and processor/memory wise, you're going to a simpler architecture with comparable speed. Essentially, to go from a PS3 designed game to a 360 one means going from 6 or 7 threads to 5 which may or may not be an obstacle.

violentp
10-26-2007, 10:19 AM
I'm going to give you a hint.

NOBODY cares about EoJ.

I fail to see how this is at all relevant to my prior post.

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:19 AM
There's a small problem with that logic. First of all, this is a total guess, but the hardware difficulties don't seem to be by design. From what I've heard about the system, the centerpiece is the Cell and Blu-Ray and they skimped on everything else. Thus, the system has a comparatively weak graphics processor and some memory problems.

My understanding is that, much like with the PS2, they simply haven't WORRIED about the difficulties, not that they make it harder on purpose or something.

Gorvi
10-26-2007, 10:20 AM
I fail to see how this is at all relevant to my prior post.
It's saying that a PS3 game is worthless, that's always a point that needs to be made in these threads. :rolleyes:

Kamalot
10-26-2007, 10:21 AM
Secondly, it's not that the system's hard to code for... It's hard to make games visually comparable to the 360 using the CPU Centric system. Thus, it's actually not hard to port games over to competitors. Visually, you're porting to a superior GPU and processor/memory wise, you're going to a simpler architecture with comparable speed. Essentially, to go from a PS3 designed game to a 360 one means going from 6 or 7 threads to 5 which may or may not be an obstacle.

Do you have any stories to back up these statements? Everything I've read indicates that the PS3 is difficult to program for compared to the 360 and Wii, regardless of visuals. Even 'simple' things like voice chat and networking functions (http://www.playstatic.com/news/957) are more complex on the PS3, resulting in more time and effort being spent than on the competitions hardware, and that has nothing to do with visuals.


Edit: By the way, everyone here (and everywhere) should read the entire article (http://jbooth.blogspot.com/2007/10/ps3-misconceptions-and-spin.html) from top to bottom. It is excellent.

This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.

violentp
10-26-2007, 10:21 AM
It's saying that a PS3 game is worthless, that's always a point that needs to be made in these threads. :rolleyes:

Ahh, I see. I still don't care, but I see.

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:22 AM
It's saying that a PS3 game is worthless, that's always a point that needs to be made in these threads. :rolleyes:
That most people aren't having the same problem, because even those with a PS3 and a 360 aren't buying EoJ?

I'm not saying it isn't a good game, I'm saying nobody cares about it, and double nobody would care if Penny Arcade hadn't endorsed it.

Enjoy your "Magic: The Gathering over the internet", though.

Sandman
10-26-2007, 10:23 AM
I think I understand it perfectly. He's saying the PS3 uses it's own unique programing tools and tricks and he doesn't want to use the resources to figure them all out, he'd rather find work arounds. I understand not every gaming company has resources to fully exploit the PS3 but at least try to find a break through and get something that works on it instead of working around it and bitching about it on the internets. That's why people buy the 360 version of a multi-platform game, developers usually cut corners on the PS3 (see EA's football games). On the other hand look at the Burnout series, they are coding for the PS3 first, making it work for that system the best that it can and then porting over and it's going to show in the final game. I'm not saying every developer has to do it for the PS3 first, just take the time to get it working right instead of cutting corners.

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:24 AM
I think I understand it perfectly. He's saying the PS3 uses it's own unique programing tools and tricks and he doesn't want to use the resources to figure them all out, he'd rather find work arounds. I understand not every gaming company has resources to fully exploit the PS3 but at least try to find a break through and get something that works on it instead of working around it and bitching about it on the internets. That's why people buy the 360 version of a multi-platform game, developers usually cut corners on the PS3 (see EA's football games). On the other hand look at the Burnout series, they are coding for the PS3 first, making it work for that system the best that it can and then porting over and it's going to show in the final game. I'm not saying every developer has to do it for the PS3 first, just take the time to get it working right instead of cutting corners.
...those that do delay their games. It's a balance. You seem to think that game design companies are a magic place where all you have to do to make a good game is want it to be good really, really hard.

antoniogaud
10-26-2007, 10:25 AM
I personally know Jason (was his art director at Turbine) and he is one of the most honest people I know. People often dislike him for the manner in which he mentions things, but 99% of the time he is right.

violentp
10-26-2007, 10:26 AM
That most people aren't having the same problem, because even those with a PS3 and a 360 aren't buying EoJ?

I'm not saying it isn't a good game, I'm saying nobody cares about it, and double nobody would care if Penny Arcade hadn't endorsed it.

Enjoy your "Magic: The Gathering over the internet", though.

Fucking yawn dude.

I've played the game and I think it kicks ass. Now I ask you, what the hell does that have to do with what other people think? At what point did trends become more important than the enjoyment of a fucking game? This is exactly the problem with the gaming scene right now.

Gorvi
10-26-2007, 10:29 AM
That most people aren't having the same problem, because even those with a PS3 and a 360 aren't buying EoJ?

I'm not saying it isn't a good game, I'm saying nobody cares about it, and double nobody would care if Penny Arcade hadn't endorsed it.

Enjoy your "Magic: The Gathering over the internet", though.
Actually, I really don't care about the game. But you don't have to shit on someone else's enjoyment of something just because you don't see the value in it.

Hell, "nobody" cares about Etrian Odyssey, but that doesn't mean I don't love the hell out of the game for all of it's old school goodness.

Telefrog
10-26-2007, 10:29 AM
That most people aren't having the same problem, because even those with a PS3 and a 360 aren't buying EoJ?

I'm not saying it isn't a good game, I'm saying nobody cares about it, and double nobody would care if Penny Arcade hadn't endorsed it.

Enjoy your "Magic: The Gathering over the internet", though.

Did you guys happen to see that you can use any cheap color printer to make copies of the cards (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/10/26/eye_of_judgement_cards_can_be_copied/1)? That was something Sony specifically said was going to be safeguarded against with counterfeit-resistant inks.

Once someone posts a few color scans of a full set, the game's booster pack pricing model will be borked. You'll just be able to print out whatever deck you want for free!

On topic: Sony completely boned themselves this time around.

Slack3r78
10-26-2007, 10:30 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know the first thing about development and thinks that 'just working harder' is no big deal. The PS3 has some very fundamental imbalanced designed problems. It's got a potentially great processor (for some types of calculations), a decent GPU, and a relatively awful memory system. These devs aren't bitching about ZOMG TEH PS3 MAKES ME WORK HARDER AND I DON'T LIKE THAT QQ. They're making complaints much more akin to John Carmack's talking about the fact that it's much more difficult to shoehorn the same content onto the PS3 that that other platforms, i.e., the 360 handle fairly easily.

TheFlyingOrc
10-26-2007, 10:32 AM
Actually, I really don't care about the game. But you don't have to shit on someone else's enjoyment of something just because you don't see the value in it.

Hell, "nobody" cares about Etrian Odyssey, but that doesn't mean I don't love the hell out of the game for all of it's old school goodness.
The last of my 3 statements is the only one where I mocked the game.

My point is that most people are not having the similar experience of the PS3 taking up the majority of their time, as nobody is playing that game.

Slack3r78
10-26-2007, 10:32 AM
On the other hand look at the Burnout series, they are coding for the PS3 first, making it work for that system the best that it can and then porting over and it's going to show in the final game.
Actually, that's called targeting the lowest common denominator.

Hagetaka
10-26-2007, 10:32 AM
Fucking yawn dude.

I've played the game and I think it kicks ass. Now I ask you, what the hell does that have to do with what other people think? At what point did trends become more important than the enjoyment of a fucking game? This is exactly the problem with the gaming scene right now.

Hey... whoa man. You're raining all over our this is why Sony sucks thread. No need for logic or reason here...

(Not seriously.. compared to some other forums -- where threads like this are more akin to monkeys flinging poo -- we're doin ok).

antoniogaud
10-26-2007, 10:34 AM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

I'm sure if you knew ANYTHING about what you were talking about, you would know that game developers are anything but lazy.

However, since it makes you feel superior for saying that they are, go right ahead and enjoy your adrenaline rush.

violentp
10-26-2007, 10:35 AM
Hey... whoa man. You're raining all over our this is why Sony sucks thread. No need for logic or reason here...

(Not seriously.. compared to some other forums -- where threads like this are more akin to monkeys flinging poo -- we're doin ok).

It annoys me just how deep the counterproductive wells run sometimes.

theblackw0lf
10-26-2007, 10:39 AM
People should also check out some of the comments (if you can sift through the raging Sony fanboys). These two stand out. One being supportive of the post, the other critical. Both come from developers.

Whilst many of the points are obvious to many of us inside the industry, unfortunately for all faults it has it still has ways around them and like stated its just a matter of resources to work around them.

Resources are an issues but if your making specifically (exclusive) for the PS3 this issue whilst still important doesn't have as much of an impact as with a port.

I will agree however that the hardware isn't as effective to use as the 360 from the bat and cell structure is pretty damning to work with but its not something that can't be worked around (resources claim again).

I think it was a given we all knew the 360 GPU was better then the PS3 GPU (if only in certain respects) but they're are unique ways to work with the cell that are quite interesting (although they do cause slowdowns).

Also people are going to look at what you said about multiple processors and mis-interp it as cores, you should really have specified that cause most don't realize how the cell actually works and that the approaches to multi-core programming doesn't automatically apply (if at all really) to the cells design and in the grand scheme to work made in programming for multi-cores doesn't translate straight to cell at all.

Blu-ray is a touchie subject, in some respects its useful and others not. It helps many of the PS3 hardware bottlenecks however so this in essence is a good thing, the transfer speeds hold true until you push it onto the hard-drive which dramatically increases loads and streams, which is probably why sony included such a large hard-drive in the first place to supplement this flaw in blu-rays speeds but if the hard-drive isn't used then yes this is a extremely fundamental flaw.

I've notice the artists at my work enjoy the extra leg room with space restrictions with the format but cause of the hardware limitations on the PS3 this space doesn't translate to much if anything at all but maybe will in later life be useful.

I or You can't predict nothing in the long term in our industry, technology and software advances come high and unique to us on many occasions. Something I could do in three years could be impossible right now but doable then, its how it works.

As to people claiming exclusive games (uncharted, R&C) to the platform look and play nice thats because when you develop from the ground up for a platform you make everything around that platform and not for a porting reason, this gives you a ton of leg room that multi-platforms would never give you, thus you can do things whilst not cutting others in the process.

As to the call of duty 4 claim, you guys should realize that they built it from the ground up to be multi-platform, they made there engine structure different for the versions taking advantage of each of the consoles respective hardware so they wouldn't have trouble with the overall hardware issues whilst doing all the other technical and artist work.

Basically they nipped a bud in the butt before they started so they didn't have these troubles down the path.

Many are going to claim bias on you and probably even bash you for this blog but when your on the front line things are not so clean cut (we know more sure) as when sitting on the side lines watching, I'm surprised you didn't podcast or livecast however cause words generally hold no merit on the internet.



Don't have a lot of time so I'll keep it short:
1) fillrate -> while it's true that 360 has more raw fillrate than PS3, this is mostly relevant only when extremely simple shaders and alpha blending are involved (particles).
A few games successfully render particles at lower res on PS3 (well, on 360 as well, see Lost Planet)and almost no one can tell the difference.

2) shader processing being significantly slower on PS3 -> simply not true, having worked on both platforms I'm very well aware of that. Moreover comments like "which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360" makes me understand that you don't know very well how a modern GPU works. You don't need more fillrate to run a more complex shader; shader ALUs and ROPs have been decoupled for a few years now. What you wrote just doesn't make any logical sense here.

3)processing stuff on SPUs introduce extra latency -> simply false. It's a matter of how you want to implement it. You can do it introducing an extra frame worth of latency..or you can do it in a clever way..(ring buffering? :) )

4)The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3.. -> This is laughable at best. All best practices needed to improve performance on CELL are going to improve performance on 360 as well (in the general case..).
Are you telling me that keeping your dataset small, avoiding branchy code, re-organize your data structures so that you access them in a cache (or local stores) friendly way, etc.. is going to make some code run slower on 360? I would like to know why.. :)

Marco

Also, does anyone have hardcore statistical evidence that the fillrate on the PS3 is slower than the 360?

jeffbax
10-26-2007, 10:45 AM
Do you have any stories to back up these statements? Everything I've read indicates that the PS3 is difficult to program for compared to the 360 and Wii, regardless of visuals. Even 'simple' things like voice chat and networking functions (http://www.playstatic.com/news/957) are more complex on the PS3, resulting in more time and effort being spent than on the competitions hardware, and that has nothing to do with visuals.

OT but please do not link to such an absolutely shitty site in the future. you can't even read the article cause every time you move the mouse an ad pops up on your screen.

holy fuck that was annoying.

Johan
10-26-2007, 11:01 AM
That's why people buy the 360 version of a multi-platform game, developers usually cut corners on the PS3

Developers aren't cutting corners as you imply, unless you think they spend LESS time on PS3 titles than they do on the 360...which is not what the development community itself has been saying and repeating and declaring and trying to get through the thick skulls of the zombified Sony acolytes.

They're not cutting corners. They're refusing to spend MORE time (which is a monetary expense) on titles than they have to spend on the 360 or Wii...or than can be compensated for by potential eventual sales.

Sony built a hardware brick that, in its complexity, was supposed to smash the 360 and Wii due to the difficulty of porting from it to other titles. Instead, the cost and anemic adoption rate of the console has made it the last, not first, development option; and it's suffering as a result...of their design decisions, not lazy developers.

Ridiculous.

Podfork
10-26-2007, 11:10 AM
Once someone posts a few color scans of a full set, the game's booster pack pricing model will be borked. You'll just be able to print out whatever deck you want for free!

On topic: Sony completely boned themselves this time around.

On the contrary, Wizards of the Coast get boned on the sales of booster packs. Gamers of low moral fibre who like to cheat see the easy win of a game like this and still buy it regardless.

I've yet to encounter a gamer that has principles strong enough to resist a self-serving win - such as those who yell "boycott" on EA games and then buy Command and Conquer or Skate.:p

Lima Beans
10-26-2007, 11:17 AM
1) fillrate -> while it's true that 360 has more raw fillrate than PS3, this is mostly relevant only when extremely simple shaders and alpha blending are involved (particles).
A few games successfully render particles at lower res on PS3 (well, on 360 as well, see Lost Planet)and almost no one can tell the difference.

This is a much bigger deal in my personal experience. Every 'next gen' game ive worked on has had fillrate as the primary bottleneck, something that isnt solved just from reducing a few particles.



Also, does anyone have hardcore statistical evidence that the fillrate on the PS3 is slower than the 360?

very good point here.

Kamalot
10-26-2007, 11:29 AM
OT but please do not link to such an absolutely shitty site in the future. you can't even read the article cause every time you move the mouse an ad pops up on your screen.

holy fuck that was annoying.

Sorry. I didn't have the problem in my version of Firefox. Had I, I wouldn't have posted the link. Thanks for the heads-up.

oldjadedgamer
10-26-2007, 11:36 AM
Sorry. I didn't have the problem in my version of Firefox. Had I, I wouldn't have posted the link. Thanks for the heads-up.

I was wondering what he was talking about. Firefox w/adblock FTW

lockwoodx
10-26-2007, 11:41 AM
Thank you. I was gonna come in here and say "Is it a new week already?" but yours was better.

The fact that it keeps coming bring to mind bart simpson going "ow quit it" "ow quit it"

Reanimated
10-26-2007, 11:52 AM
This seems to be the consensus amongst third parties that don't wear sony money hats.

Telefrog
10-26-2007, 11:53 AM
On the contrary, Wizards of the Coast get boned on the sales of booster packs. Gamers of low moral fibre who like to cheat see the easy win of a game like this and still buy it regardless.

I've yet to encounter a gamer that has principles strong enough to resist a self-serving win - such as those who yell "boycott" on EA games and then buy Command and Conquer or Skate.:p

If you don't believe that Sony has an interest in seeing EoJ's booster packs sell well, then you're badly mistaken.

51|RandoM
10-26-2007, 11:57 AM
NOBODY cares about EoJ.

Looking at the number of posts you've made directly referencing EoJ, that means you're a nobody?

What is your PSN id anyways? :p

violentp
10-26-2007, 12:01 PM
The fact that it keeps coming bring to mind bart simpson going "ow quit it" "ow quit it"

Will you take us to Mt. Krusty?
Will you take us to Mt. Krusty?
Will you take us to Mt. Krusty?
Will you take us to Mt. Krusty?

Chainblast
10-26-2007, 12:01 PM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly?

I doubt that has very little to do with it. More likely they don't want to spend the extra time because...well time costs money. Right now the consensus is that a game can be developed cheaper and faster on the 360, and sell a great deal more copies than the PS3 version.

NeoSuplex
10-26-2007, 12:10 PM
Do you have any stories to back up these statements? Everything I've read indicates that the PS3 is difficult to program for compared to the 360 and Wii, regardless of visuals. Even 'simple' things like voice chat and networking functions (http://www.playstatic.com/news/957) are more complex on the PS3, resulting in more time and effort being spent than on the competitions hardware, and that has nothing to do with visuals.

I guess I worded that wrong. I'm not going to pretend that I'm qualified to judge how hard the PS3 is to program for. What I meant was, the pertinent point (to TFO's post) made in the article is the difficulty of getting 360 like performance, not just the difficulty of getting code running.

Evil Avnovice
10-26-2007, 12:24 PM
http://www.rome.ro/images/doom/Doom.png

Just tossing my two cents in.

bapenguin
10-26-2007, 12:31 PM
I personally know Jason (was his art director at Turbine) and he is one of the most honest people I know. People often dislike him for the manner in which he mentions things, but 99% of the time he is right.

He posts on this site from time to time as well. We'll see if he comes out to defend himself.

KingGorilla
10-26-2007, 12:35 PM
He posts on this site from time to time as well. We'll see if he comes out to defend himself.

Because that always ends well.

Trazzlo the Magnificant
10-26-2007, 12:41 PM
Sorry. I didn't have the problem in my version of Firefox. Had I, I wouldn't have posted the link. Thanks for the heads-up.
I didn't have any issues at all either ... Firefox here as well.

As to the story, what is common between it and the other developers who responded is that it is still difficult to program for. To make things work the way you want, you need to resort to tricks and work arounds. That isn't bad in itself, because you eventually build a library of tools and knowledge which helps bring the next title in on time and budget.

The problem I see is the same as I posted before; it is a system with a steep learning curve and the first project (if not more than one) have higher R&D costs to learn it all. What that means is that it will likely have a few great development studios, and others that just don't have the funds to get past the first hurdle.

It means that the indie game scene on the PS3 is probably several years behind the larger studios. I don't think the same is true for Wii and 360 though.

What will probably happen is that the PS3 will continue to have great 1st party titles (lots of internal knowledge already built up, and access to private design decisions), but those will be relatively few in number. Then large 3rd party shops will release titles, but many of those will be ports or designed for common features between all consoles (ie won't make full use of the PS3 hardware). Much later, once Sony releases a comprehensive support library for a reasonable fee, the indie developers will start to appear.

MS is in a much better position support wise to get indie and small studios to the point they can release titles and make a profit to fund more games.

Norse
10-26-2007, 12:44 PM
He posts on this site from time to time as well. We'll see if he comes out to defend himself.

Why would he need to defend himself? If anyone should come out and defend themselves it's Sony.

Norse
10-26-2007, 12:46 PM
Enjoy your "Magic: The Gathering over the internet", though.

I'm interested in seeing what kind of people end up buying EoJ. When I think of these kind of card games I think of crazy people sitting outside "geek shops" playing, age often spanning from 10 to 40. It's disturbing :)

Durka-Dan
10-26-2007, 12:48 PM
On topic: Just more fuel for the fire. I couldn't resist.

Yea.. I bet you couldn't...:rolleyes:

Anywho, just like the second reply says.. nothing we haven't heard before.

I'm not dissing the developer here, but none of the games that were listed that he worked on looked complicated to develop anyways. What's he talking about frame rates for?! It's guitar hero and rockband, framerates for what? How fast the slider moves?!

Edit: Has this guy even worked on a game that was ported over for the PS3 that was more graphic intensive then guitar hero? Don't get me wrong, the part after the song where you enter your name on the urinal and it flushes when you accept must be pretty intense to animate.

Gorvi
10-26-2007, 12:50 PM
It means that the indie game scene on the PS3 is probably several years behind the larger studios. I don't think the same is true for Wii and 360 though.
So you're forgetting games like flOw and Everyday Shooter? What indie games are on the 360 or Wii? I think there's one on the 360 that was made by interns, that free co-op shooter.

Norse
10-26-2007, 12:57 PM
So you're forgetting games like flOw and Everyday Shooter? What indie games are on the 360 or Wii? I think there's one on the 360 that was made by interns, that free co-op shooter.

What do you consider indie? Aren't The Behemoth independent (Alien Hominid, Castle Crashers)? How about PomPom Games (Mutant Storm), Naked Sky Entertainment (Roboblitz), Gastronaut Studios (Small Arms) or Klei Entertainment (Eets)?

Gorvi
10-26-2007, 01:00 PM
What do you consider indie? Aren't The Behemoth independent (Alien Hominid, Castle Crashers)? How about PomPom Games (Mutant Storm), Naked Sky Entertainment (Roboblitz), Gastronaut Studios (Small Arms) or Klei Entertainment (Eets)?
Good point. While I'm not familiar with all of those, it looks like they'd all fit. That just reminds me how much I need to catch up on XBLA demos.

BGSS
10-26-2007, 01:04 PM
So you're forgetting games like flOw and Everyday Shooter? What indie games are on the 360 or Wii? I think there's one on the 360 that was made by interns, that free co-op shooter.

Outpost Koloki
Aegis Wing
Assault Heroes
Crystal Quest
Feeding Frenzy
Mutant Storm Reloaded
Small Arms
Space Giraffe
Band Of Bugs
(and more)

Granted, many of those are not as good as something like everyday shooter (though a couple are close). There are also some more upcoming that look really promising.

Undertow (this game rocks)
and Castle Crashers.

Edit: Ah, you already replied above while I was typing this.

Also, I'd just like to say that I think Sandman needs to quit talking like he knows how game development works. Both in his original post, and in his defense post after getting shut down by like 10 people clearly show that he is just making speculations about how things 'should' work based off of his own speculations about how things currently work, both of which are pretty off. I won't bother quoting the original posts or arguing individual points because the rest of you have done that well enough. Really man, you don't know what you're talking about.

oldjadedgamer
10-26-2007, 01:04 PM
So you're forgetting games like flOw and Everyday Shooter? What indie games are on the 360 or Wii? I think there's one on the 360 that was made by interns, that free co-op shooter.

Curious because I don't know but who is the publisher for flOw and Everyday shooter?

Gorvi
10-26-2007, 01:22 PM
Curious because I don't know but who is the publisher for flOw and Everyday shooter?
I believe Sony published both, though both were indapendant (and complete) projects before they were picked up for release on the PSN.

Evil Avnovice
10-26-2007, 01:30 PM
Curious because I don't know but who is the publisher for flOw and Everyday shooter?

On the subject of Everyday Shooter, I don't know if this will help you....:confused:

Indie Games Showcase (http://www.areyouindie.com/showcase/profile.php?id=5)

Micasa
10-26-2007, 01:47 PM
Why would he need to defend himself? If anyone should come out and defend themselves it's Sony.

Judging by some of the posts attacking Booth, Sony's already here in some form :D

WaltJay
10-26-2007, 02:04 PM
The system would have sold like crazy on release, and developers would be nearly forced to make games on it, making these complaints just never happen in the first place.

This is basically what happened with the PS2. Like the PS3, it was hard to develop for, but the marketshare was so great that game publishers and developers couldn't ignore it. Now it's the worst of both worlds: low marketshare and hardest to code for. Sony has quite the uphill battle, but what else is new.

Fartacus
10-26-2007, 03:05 PM
So from this comment and Gabe's it seems like developers want to be lazy bastards and just have whatever coding they do on a PC work on 360 and PS3 and Wii automaticly? I don't think that will ever happen until there is just one company making the systems. Until then get off your ass, figure out the PS3's "tricks" and put the effort into making something good for it.....these developers aren't saying it's impossible, just that they don't want to do the extra work.

It's not a question of laziness. Its a question of cost vs. benefit. PS3 is a costly beast to develop for, and the costs of jumping through Sony's hoops outweigh the benefits.

It's very clear from your post that you are a @$%! moron that needs to get a clue. Lazy game developers don't survive very long in the industry.

teksama
10-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Cell is/was/ and will always be a bad idea. DSPs go in my calculator or my stereo not in my game system. They do nothing and it shows.

Farsight
10-26-2007, 05:02 PM
I think I understand it perfectly. He's saying the PS3 uses it's own unique programing tools and tricks and he doesn't want to use the resources to figure them all out, he'd rather find work arounds. I understand not every gaming company has resources to fully exploit the PS3 but at least try to find a break through and get something that works on it instead of working around it and bitching about it on the internets. That's why people buy the 360 version of a multi-platform game, developers usually cut corners on the PS3 (see EA's football games). On the other hand look at the Burnout series, they are coding for the PS3 first, making it work for that system the best that it can and then porting over and it's going to show in the final game. I'm not saying every developer has to do it for the PS3 first, just take the time to get it working right instead of cutting corners.

Your posts on this topic are naive at best.

Each platform gets resources (man-hours of work) devoted to it based on the priority of the platform. Anyone making a new game and prioritizing the PS3 over the 360 or Wii is making a very odd decision.

The PS3 is a port-target because of its low install base. It gets -bad- ports because its secondary status doesn't justify allocating resources to work that only applies to it. It only gets ports at all because the investment for a port is quite easy to recoup even with lackluster sales. If the PS3 version had additional manpower devoted to it, its costs would rise, and it might no longer be a worthwhile option at all.

So it's not a question of whether developers feel like playing paintball or doing some real work. It's where developers choose to place their priorities:

A) Hitting deadlines (moving resources to a PS3 version can cause your other versions to be delayed)

B) Making your budget (adding resources to a PS3 version may cause it to not be profitable, making cancelling the PS3 version a more attractive option)

C) Making the best game possible on your lead platform (balancing all versions may make the PS3 version perform better, but at the cost of the other versions that have bigger potential sales)

There's simply no way to justify the PS3 versions of multi-platform titles getting any more attention than they are now. It has the most cumbersome hardware and smallest sales base.

What's he talking about frame rates for?! It's guitar hero and rockband, framerates for what? How fast the slider moves?!

If a rhythm game has even the slightest framerate hiccups, the game falls apart. I avoid a couple of the venues in GH2 for exactly that reason - the game slows down briefly, I mess up notes, then I want to break a guitar, which is not a good place to be. :)

BlackPete
10-26-2007, 05:47 PM
/Steps in.
/Looks around to see that Sandman's already been pwned hard, so no need to reply.
/Flies away.

Durka-Dan
10-26-2007, 06:22 PM
If a rhythm game has even the slightest framerate hiccups, the game falls apart. I avoid a couple of the venues in GH2 for exactly that reason - the game slows down briefly, I mess up notes, then I want to break a guitar, which is not a good place to be. :)

My point is, a game like guitar hero isn't exactly suffering from a case of low frame rates(shouldn't be anyways). And seeing as how (not sure if he has worked on anything that had to be ported over to the PS3 besides guitar hero/rockband) he hasn't had to port anything over that had to "drop in quality" to meet sufficient frame rates. I'm gonna have to say he's just talking out of his ass or taking somebody else's word for it. I'm not saying it's a problem, I just don't think this guy has even encountered it yet and therefor needs to "shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudaaaaaaaaaap"!

donkeydrop
10-26-2007, 06:28 PM
And he's an expert because .... he has a degree in Music and a total of two years programming experience? ... on a game that looks identical on PS3 and 360?

Johan
10-26-2007, 06:31 PM
And he's an expert because

I'm sure you already know this, but:

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51covn9+FlL._AA240_.jpg

Virtuoso
10-26-2007, 06:36 PM
The PS3 is like the PS2 without the install base.

On the flipside, I now own a ps3 with a 250gb hdd. Bout to put linux on it, and then mame it is. Funny, I don't think I'll own ps3 games for at least another month, or at least whenever drakes fortune comes out.

donkeydrop
10-26-2007, 06:38 PM
"Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors"

So, let's see ... a top of the line computer has a quad core cpu, 2 video cards, and a sound card. That makes seven processors, never mind that you could add two more video cards and a physics card if you really wanted to go crazy. People are writing code that takes advantage of multiple processors, and for a platform that sells a lot less games than a console.

Johan
10-26-2007, 06:46 PM
People are writing code that takes advantage of multiple processors, and for a platform that sells a lot less games than a console.

True. Other consoles. :D

Azrikam
10-26-2007, 07:59 PM
Here's a silver lining for the SDF. All these developers/publishers complaining about how difficult the PS3 is to program for might... just might... get through to Sony. And maybe, if we close our eyes tight and wish real hard, Sony will not ignore this feedback and put more thought into their next console from a developer's point of view.

But given Sony's track record on this sort of thing, I won't be getting my hopes up that much.

Leper DCE
10-26-2007, 10:39 PM
This is almost like an election... You have to pick the best of two evils

PS3 - Everyone complains about it, no good games (at the present time)
or
X360 - Unreliable, but seems to be picking up steam



well i vote for the one that admits they fucked up and are doing something to redeem themselves

Evil Avnovice
10-27-2007, 01:13 AM
Here's a silver lining for the SDF. All these developers/publishers complaining about how difficult the PS3 is to program for might... just might... get through to Sony. And maybe, if we close our eyes tight and wish real hard, Sony will not ignore this feedback and put more thought into their next console from a developer's point of view.

But given Sony's track record on this sort of thing, I won't be getting my hopes up that much.

Apparently, you must have missed those first few posts back there. ;)

TeeCakes
10-27-2007, 10:39 AM
...those that do delay their games. It's a balance. You seem to think that game design companies are a magic place where all you have to do to make a good game is want it to be good really, really hard.

Seriously, enough. Your patronizing tactics are giving me an ulcer. The man has a point regardless of you making him seem like an idiot for having a unique opinion.

People should also check out some of the comments (if you can sift through the raging Sony fanboys). These two stand out. One being supportive of the post, the other critical. Both come from developers.


Quote:
Whilst many of the points are obvious to many of us inside the industry, unfortunately for all faults it has it still has ways around them and like stated its just a matter of resources to work around them.

Resources are an issues but if your making specifically (exclusive) for the PS3 this issue whilst still important doesn't have as much of an impact as with a port.

I will agree however that the hardware isn't as effective to use as the 360 from the bat and cell structure is pretty damning to work with but its not something that can't be worked around (resources claim again).

I think it was a given we all knew the 360 GPU was better then the PS3 GPU (if only in certain respects) but they're are unique ways to work with the cell that are quite interesting (although they do cause slowdowns).

Also people are going to look at what you said about multiple processors and mis-interp it as cores, you should really have specified that cause most don't realize how the cell actually works and that the approaches to multi-core programming doesn't automatically apply (if at all really) to the cells design and in the grand scheme to work made in programming for multi-cores doesn't translate straight to cell at all.

Blu-ray is a touchie subject, in some respects its useful and others not. It helps many of the PS3 hardware bottlenecks however so this in essence is a good thing, the transfer speeds hold true until you push it onto the hard-drive which dramatically increases loads and streams, which is probably why sony included such a large hard-drive in the first place to supplement this flaw in blu-rays speeds but if the hard-drive isn't used then yes this is a extremely fundamental flaw.

I've notice the artists at my work enjoy the extra leg room with space restrictions with the format but cause of the hardware limitations on the PS3 this space doesn't translate to much if anything at all but maybe will in later life be useful.

I or You can't predict nothing in the long term in our industry, technology and software advances come high and unique to us on many occasions. Something I could do in three years could be impossible right now but doable then, its how it works.

As to people claiming exclusive games (uncharted, R&C) to the platform look and play nice thats because when you develop from the ground up for a platform you make everything around that platform and not for a porting reason, this gives you a ton of leg room that multi-platforms would never give you, thus you can do things whilst not cutting others in the process.

As to the call of duty 4 claim, you guys should realize that they built it from the ground up to be multi-platform, they made there engine structure different for the versions taking advantage of each of the consoles respective hardware so they wouldn't have trouble with the overall hardware issues whilst doing all the other technical and artist work.

Basically they nipped a bud in the butt before they started so they didn't have these troubles down the path.

Many are going to claim bias on you and probably even bash you for this blog but when your on the front line things are not so clean cut (we know more sure) as when sitting on the side lines watching, I'm surprised you didn't podcast or livecast however cause words generally hold no merit on the internet.
Quote:
Don't have a lot of time so I'll keep it short:
1) fillrate -> while it's true that 360 has more raw fillrate than PS3, this is mostly relevant only when extremely simple shaders and alpha blending are involved (particles).
A few games successfully render particles at lower res on PS3 (well, on 360 as well, see Lost Planet)and almost no one can tell the difference.

2) shader processing being significantly slower on PS3 -> simply not true, having worked on both platforms I'm very well aware of that. Moreover comments like "which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360" makes me understand that you don't know very well how a modern GPU works. You don't need more fillrate to run a more complex shader; shader ALUs and ROPs have been decoupled for a few years now. What you wrote just doesn't make any logical sense here.

3)processing stuff on SPUs introduce extra latency -> simply false. It's a matter of how you want to implement it. You can do it introducing an extra frame worth of latency..or you can do it in a clever way..(ring buffering? )

4)The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3.. -> This is laughable at best. All best practices needed to improve performance on CELL are going to improve performance on 360 as well (in the general case..).
Are you telling me that keeping your dataset small, avoiding branchy code, re-organize your data structures so that you access them in a cache (or local stores) friendly way, etc.. is going to make some code run slower on 360? I would like to know why..

Marco
Also, does anyone have hardcore statistical evidence that the fillrate on the PS3 is slower than the 360?



Thanks for the responses, they were informative and very eye-opening. The fact that the original guy was an 'ex' harmonix developer spouting off his bias against PS3 immediately made me want to dismiss his views, but now that I have someone who actually knows what they're talking about dismiss his views as well, I have evidence to support the fact that he's just trying to cause publicity problems with Sony in the midst of this price-cut, early-holiday season. Pathetic.

Let's also conveniently forget that all the Guitar Hero games sell 3:1 better on the PS2 system than any other system. This is most definitely a Sony-leaning multiplat, and developers of Harmonix (ex or no) would simply be foolish to not code for a Sony-console before all others when they've got such a large software install base already. 2nd clue for me that the blogger was just trying to bash for bashings sakes-- hey, he must be a longtime EvAv poster!

Yea.. I bet you couldn't...:rolleyes:

Anywho, just like the second reply says.. nothing we haven't heard before.

I'm not dissing the developer here, but none of the games that were listed that he worked on looked complicated to develop anyways. What's he talking about frame rates for?! It's guitar hero and rockband, framerates for what? How fast the slider moves?!

Edit: Has this guy even worked on a game that was ported over for the PS3 that was more graphic intensive then guitar hero? Don't get me wrong, the part after the song where you enter your name on the urinal and it flushes when you accept must be pretty intense to animate.

And he's an expert because .... he has a degree in Music and a total of two years programming experience? ... on a game that looks identical on PS3 and 360?

QFT and laughs. Oh, and if you indeed do have an EvAv account, dear Ex-Developer Man, by all means please defend yourself. This is me. Attacking you. I don't eve respect you enough to use my own words to attack you, even, I'm indirectly quoting other people's disses. Ready? Engage!

Micasa
10-27-2007, 10:49 AM
My point is, a game like guitar hero isn't exactly suffering from a case of low frame rates(shouldn't be anyways). And seeing as how (not sure if he has worked on anything that had to be ported over to the PS3 besides guitar hero/rockband) he hasn't had to port anything over that had to "drop in quality" to meet sufficient frame rates. I'm gonna have to say he's just talking out of his ass or taking somebody else's word for it. I'm not saying it's a problem, I just don't think this guy has even encountered it yet and therefor needs to "shuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudaaaaaaaaaap"!

Yet you have no problem spouting off about the strengths of the PS3 and the weaknesses of the 360, though you have absolutely nothing to do with games aside from buying the occasional one.

Kind of a double standard, isn't it?

the soUL TRAder
10-27-2007, 11:54 AM
QFT and laughs. Oh, and if you indeed do have an EvAv account, dear Ex-Developer Man, by all means please defend yourself. This is me. Attacking you. I don't eve respect you enough to use my own words to attack you, even, I'm indirectly quoting other people's disses. Ready? Engage!


And, FOR ONCE, most of your post actually makes sense, I think you should stick exclusively to quoting.;)
I mean let's face it, there are two or three rapid fanbois in every thread that make a better case for Sony than you can.
As a matter of fact, although I'm not totally sure, you may actually be helping to prove the counter-points more than your idiotic fanbois ramblings.


Why does the SDF keep arguing with things known?

Cell is advanced technology, so, of course it's more difficult to program for, we've known that since E3'05. The real problem is this new technology isn't as useful for making games as gamers would have liked.

Sony had an expectation of third party support from PS2 and didn't work to keep it.

Finally, and most basically, no code "splits well over multiple proccessors" but especially not branchy game code.


In the end, it's Sony dropping the ball again, if they wanted the cell to impress us with it's game enhancing powers, they probably should have had middleware to show developers how to unlock them; unless, of course, these powers just ain't there.:eek:

Slack3r78
10-27-2007, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the responses, they were informative and very eye-opening. The fact that the original guy was an 'ex' harmonix developer spouting off his bias against PS3 immediately made me want to dismiss his views, but now that I have someone who actually knows what they're talking about dismiss his views as well, I have evidence to support the fact that he's just trying to cause publicity problems with Sony in the midst of this price-cut, early-holiday season. Pathetic.
What motive could he have for this? The only really pathetic thing I see here is paranoia. I also find it amusing that you completely skip over the other developer which corroborated with what he had to say. Confirmation bias much?

Let's also conveniently forget that all the Guitar Hero games sell 3:1 better on the PS2 system than any other system. This is most definitely a Sony-leaning multiplat, and developers of Harmonix (ex or no) would simply be foolish to not code for a Sony-console before all others when they've got such a large software install base already.
They sell better on the PS2 because the PS2 has an install base in excess of 100 million units. So because Guitar Hero was successful on a platform with one of the most massive install bases ever, Harmonix would be foolish not to target the current generation platform with the smallest install base as their primary platform? You certainly have an interesting take on rational decision making.

Zecon
10-27-2007, 12:42 PM
[/QUOTE]QFT and laughs. Oh, and if you indeed do have an EvAv account, dear Ex-Developer Man, by all means please defend yourself. This is me. Attacking you. I don't eve respect you enough to use my own words to attack you, even, I'm indirectly quoting other people's disses. Ready? Engage![/QUOTE]

wow did you wake up this retarded, or did it take practice?
hey I got an idea...
Lets put all our develoment resources into a game console noone is buying, just so we can make the SDF happy.

carnage11
10-27-2007, 01:42 PM
Let's also conveniently forget that all the Guitar Hero games sell 3:1 better on the PS2 system than any other system. This is most definitely a Sony-leaning multiplat, and developers of Harmonix (ex or no) would simply be foolish to not code for a Sony-console before all others when they've got such a large software install base already. 2nd clue for me that the blogger was just trying to bash for bashings sakes-- hey, he must be a longtime EvAv poster!



Wow....you're so bitter. GH might have sold better on the PS2, because it was made for the PS2. We're talking about the PS3. You do know that they're two different consoles right? Just because something sells well on PS2 doesn't mean that it's automatically gonna sell as well on the PS3. This is definitely NOT a Sony-leaning multiplat. It was last gen.....it's not this gen. I also love how you only quote what helps your argument and completely skip right over the other quotes that go against what you're saying. Talk about bias.:rolleyes:

Ever think that maybe this isn't about fanboyism and maybe it's just about facts? Of course anything negative said about Sony must be fanboyism....because Sony......can do no wrong.:p

Durka-Dan
10-27-2007, 02:12 PM
Yet you have no problem spouting off about the strengths of the PS3 and the weaknesses of the 360, though you have absolutely nothing to do with games aside from buying the occasional one.

Kind of a double standard, isn't it?

Not at all. I've encountered the strengths and weaknesses of all three consoles through me personally using them.

This guy? From the work he's done, I doubt he has ever personally encountered this problem.

Spouting weaknesses about the 360? I might have promoted the PS3 over the 360 once upon a time but I don't think I've ever SPOUTED weaknesses about the 360 mainly because I can't think of any other then it's made by Microsoft (which is about my only problem with it).

I would have kept your box minimized since I have you ignored, but I wanted to see if you had anything of worth to add to the argument. It's a shame you'll always be the same guy resorting back to the fanboy spewing troll that you are.


Edit: I've got an idea, how about someone from the M $ camp actually post something other then "Pft, I knew you wouldn't accept this as news" and actually contradict some of the issues being raised.

Johan
10-27-2007, 02:18 PM
Popcorn's down below...

oldjadedgamer
10-27-2007, 02:36 PM
Wow....you're so bitter. GH might have sold better on the PS2, because it was made for the PS2.

Wait, what other last gen system was Guitar Hero ever on?

carnage11
10-27-2007, 07:18 PM
Wait, what other last gen system was Guitar Hero ever on?

It was only on PS2. That was my point. It was made for the PS2. Doesn't mean it will sell well on the PS3. It will probably still sell better on the PS2.

Micasa
10-27-2007, 07:30 PM
Edit: I've got an idea, how about someone from the M $ camp actually post something other then "Pft, I knew you wouldn't accept this as news" and actually contradict some of the issues being raised.

Have you ever actually contradicted the issues in any post? All you do is scream about bias and how anything negative towards Sony, even when it's something they've DIRECTLY said* or done is misconstrued. I think it's hilarious, and pathetically sad at the same time, to see you constantly wailing about how you're not a fanboy, as you blindly defend Sony in thread after thread.

I mean you come up with stuff like this:
"...but I don't think I've ever SPOUTED weaknesses about the 360 mainly because I can't think of any other then it's made by Microsoft (which is about my only problem with it)."

But you're not a fanboy?

* - I would bet that when Kaz revealed the 60 GB price drop was actually a clearance of the SKU, you were jumping on that bandwagon of "OMG TRANSLATION ERROR!" without ever actually viewing the TOTALLY IN ENGLISH interview, since it was seen as a negative. Hell, you probably still believe they're pumping those things out.

Dirty Harry
10-27-2007, 09:41 PM
Also, I'd just like to say that I think Sandman needs to quit talking like he knows how game development works. Both in his original post, and in his defense post after getting shut down by like 10 people clearly show that he is just making speculations about how things 'should' work based off of his own speculations about how things currently work, both of which are pretty off. I won't bother quoting the original posts or arguing individual points because the rest of you have done that well enough. Really man, you don't know what you're talking about.

AH EVILAVATAR, WHERE EVEN THE UNINFORMED CAN TROUNCE THE EVEN MORE UNINFORMED............

Johan
10-27-2007, 09:58 PM
http://www.newmoviesforum.com/popcorn.gif

Yummy yummy!

Dirty Harry
10-27-2007, 10:22 PM
http://www.newmoviesforum.com/popcorn.gif

Yummy yummy!


i've eatten green popcorn, ive eatten yellow popcorn but i have yet to have had a chance to try purple popcorn......

Johan
10-27-2007, 10:23 PM
i've eatten green popcorn, ive eatten yellow popcorn but i have yet to have had a chance to try purple popcorn......

Wine. Pour some wine on it. Or grape juice.

Wine would be better. ;)

Dirty Harry
10-27-2007, 10:34 PM
Wine. Pour some wine on it. Or grape juice.

Wine would be better. ;)

Im sure at first it would taste horrible but after you started eatting a fair bit, i bet the popcorn would start tasting very awesome.

antoniogaud
10-27-2007, 11:03 PM
This guy? From the work he's done, I doubt he has ever personally encountered this problem.

Again (being that I actually know 'this guy') the difference is that he knows what he is talking about as opposed to... (guess who).

carnage11
10-27-2007, 11:12 PM
I'd love to know how you've had green popcorn.....was it St. Patrick's Day popcorn or something?!

oldjadedgamer
10-28-2007, 12:37 AM
It was only on PS2. That was my point. It was made for the PS2. Doesn't mean it will sell well on the PS3. It will probably still sell better on the PS2.

Exactly. The user you quoted is on my ignore list so I didn't see the comment but replied to yours. Saying that it sells best on the console it was made for in the first place and only appeared on for years isn't really impressive. Not even close.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 12:43 AM
Have you ever actually contradicted the issues in any post? All you do is scream about bias and how anything negative towards Sony, even when it's something they've DIRECTLY said* or done is misconstrued.

I'm not claiming bias. I'm claiming this guy has never been put in the situation that he claims to have been put in.

I think it's hilarious, and pathetically sad at the same time, to see you constantly wailing about how you're not a fanboy, as you blindly defend Sony in thread after thread.

You just don't get it, I'm a gamer, not a guy with an agenda. What is sad and pathetic is how you blindly SUPPORT every piece of news that comes out and claim ANY who try to bring anything up against those who claim things that might be false are automatically lumped in with the SDF or whatever you want to call them. It's sad man. Just because everyone calls everyone else a fanboy doesn't mean you have to. grow some balls.

I mean you come up with stuff like this:
"...but I don't think I've ever SPOUTED weaknesses about the 360 mainly because I can't think of any other then it's made by Microsoft (which is about my only problem with it)."

Yes. As I've explained before, when I heard Microsoft was entering the console industry, all the dislike I've had for Microsoft in the first place carried on into the xbox, I guess that makes me a linux fanboy if anything. Does that make me biased? yes. Does it mean that I'm a PS3 fanboy? I guess since according to your logic if I bring up questions about the sources of news posts I obviously am..

* - I would bet that when Kaz revealed the 60 GB price drop was actually a clearance of the SKU, you were jumping on that bandwagon of "OMG TRANSLATION ERROR!" without ever actually viewing the TOTALLY IN ENGLISH interview, since it was seen as a negative. Hell, you probably still believe they're pumping those things out.

I bet when the news was posted you got all giddy like a school girl, jumped into the thread, and immediately started supporting the controversial news whether it was true or not. Just as you say I go against anti-sony news articles you seem to be in every anti-sony news post NOT adding to the conversation, but instead, hating on everyone who brings up issues. Pull that media dick out of your mouth for a second and actually post something useful to the conversation instead of "oh yeah? well well.. your a fanboy! it's true because it's news!"

Exactly. The user you quoted is on my ignore list so I didn't see the comment but replied to yours. Saying that it sells best on the console it was made for in the first place and only appeared on for years isn't really impressive. Not even close.

Pft, you show up in every thread like this, bitch about someone, and always say your gonna ignore somebody. Whatever man. You've probably got me ignored too.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 12:47 AM
Again (being that I actually know 'this guy') the difference is that he knows what he is talking about as opposed to... (guess who).

Ok, good. I'm glad we have someone here who knows the guy.

Could you ask him what game in particular he is talking about? What instance is he refferring to in which he had a hard time porting to the PS3 or sacrificing quality over time?

Micasa
10-28-2007, 01:05 AM
What is sad and pathetic is how you blindly SUPPORT every piece of news that comes out and claim ANY who try to bring anything up against those who claim things that might be false are automatically lumped in with the SDF or whatever you want to call them.

I support news that has a basis in reality. Kaz saying the 60 GB was a clearance, for one, as I'd actually bothered to WATCH THE INTERVIEW. Meanwhile idiots were running around proclaiming it was a mistranslated article...


Yes. As I've explained before, when I heard Microsoft was entering the console industry, all the dislike I've had for Microsoft in the first place carried on into the xbox, I guess that makes me a linux fanboy if anything. Does that make me biased? yes. Does it mean that I'm a PS3 fanboy? I guess since according to your logic if I bring up questions about the sources of news posts I obviously am..

You only question the source when the article paints Sony or the PS3 in what you perceive to be a negative light. Period. I pointed that out quite clearly in the other thread.

I bet when the news was posted you got all giddy like a school girl, jumped into the thread, and immediately started supporting the controversial news whether it was true or not. Just as you say I go against anti-sony news articles you seem to be in every anti-sony news post NOT adding to the conversation, but instead, hating on everyone who brings up issues. Pull that media dick out of your mouth for a second and actually post something useful to the conversation instead of "oh yeah? well well.. your a fanboy! it's true because it's news!"

As I pointed out, having actually seen the interview, I was pointing out that it was true and not an error in translation. I'd guess you never, to this day, bothered to watch that interview - right?

Pft, you show up in every thread like this, bitch about someone, and always say your gonna ignore somebody. Whatever man. You've probably got me ignored too.

Really? I have yet to say I'm putting anyone on ignore. Someone has though...let me think who... Oh yeah, you - twice now. Once for each time I've pointed out pretty clearly what a useless waste of webspace your posts are. You seem to reply to me a lot for someone who has me on ignore, so how's that working out for you?

Once again you post a wall of text, but make no actual points - nor refute any. You just babble about being an unbiased gamer who just happens to totally hate Microsoft and attack anything you perceive (rightly or wrongly) as negative towards Sony.

But you're not a fanboy...

:rolleyes:

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 01:28 AM
Really? I have yet to say I'm putting anyone on ignore. Someone has though...let me think who... Oh yeah, you - twice now. Once for each time I've pointed out pretty clearly what a useless waste of webspace your posts are. You seem to reply to me a lot for someone who has me on ignore, so how's that working out for you?

Check my previous post. I wasn't quoting you. Ouch, so much for your credibility for paying attention to things, eh?

Once again you post a wall of text, but make no actual points - nor refute any. You just babble about being an unbiased gamer who just happens to totally hate Microsoft and attack anything you perceive (rightly or wrongly) as negative towards Sony.

I'll support any party who is being attacked by anybody who makes unjust claims. Give me a sec, I'm compiling all the things wrong with the author of the article above.

Edit: BTW, the exact same thing you're saying about me can also be applied to yourself. A quick glance at your posting history shows half of your 700 posts were spent in PS3 related threads trolling others THE EXACT SAME WAY your trolling me now. Get a job.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 02:05 AM
The points on why this man is full o' crap:

1. He was "perusing" a career in music management, only to drop-out to become an artist for .. ah well he can say it better in an interview (http://www.iasig.org/pubs/interviews/jbooth.shtml) with IASIG:
I sort of fell into this industry during the summer of '96. I was on summer break from the Berklee College of Music, and had spent the last year basically skipping class to do theatre work and learn Lightwave, a 3d graphics tool on the Amiga. Musically, I was pretty burned out at the time, so I was naturally per suing other interests, including a heavy Street Fighter II addiction. I saw an add on the Lightwave mailing list for a new game company looking for artists, and decided to give it a try since I didn't have anything planned for the rest of the summer. At the time, the company was located in the founders mom's basement, and I pretty much moved in with my computers and got to work.On his profile (http://www.blogger.com/profile/03832373920590563761) at blogger.com, he mentions he's an engineer. First of all, as someone who is shoveling money out my ass and going deep into debt just to EARN the title of engineer, I find his self proclaimed engineering title to be insulting. Secondly, his working on games like Asheron's Call, Everquest, and Ultima with "interactive audio" HARDLY qualifies him as a programmer. As technical designer for Guitar Hero and Rock Band, the job description itself implies that "he helps bridge the gap between programmers and artists". If you ask me, it reminds me of this:
1st Bob: What you do at Initech is you take the specifications from the customer and bring them down to the software engineers?
Tom: Yes, yes that's right.
2nd Bob: Well then I just have to ask why can't the customers take them directly to the software people?
Tom: Well, I'll tell you why... because... engineers are not good at dealing with customers...
1st Bob: So you physically take the specs from the customer?
Tom: Well... No. My secretary does that... or they're faxed.
2nd Bob: So then you must physically bring them to the software people?
Tom: Well... No. ah sometimes.
1st Bob: What would you say you do here?
Tom: Look I already told you, I deal with the @#$% customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills! I am good at dealing with people, can't you understand that? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?! With all of his education, I'm starting to wonder if the problem he had with porting to the PS3 was that he has no education. It also makes you wonder if he's covering his ass for a future release of a ported game.

2. "Jason left Harmonix in August '07 to join a new stealth-mode web-based MMO startup, Conduit Labs." According to Conduit Labs:
In the real world we get together to dance, play hoops, even skydive out of planes. Online we can add people to buddy lists, but there are few options when we actually want to create, compete, and play together.
This is the start of Conduit Labs. We're building cool social entertainment destinations for you and your friends. We are bored of the same old social networks, virtual worlds, and MMOs. We've been doing this kind of thing for a long time, so we're trying something new. Drop your email below to see what's up. In that case, isn't Sony one of their competitors now with Playstation Home?

3. PS3 exclusives suck? *Looks at R&C, Uncharted, Resistance..* Shh. Jason, quit showing your true colors. Somebody might start thinking your a fanboy or something..

4. The technical side of his argument just doesn't make any sense, as a true engineer by the name of Marco Salvi (http://pixelstoomany.wordpress.com/) points out some of the author's mistakes:
1) fillrate -> while it's true that 360 has more raw fillrate than PS3, this is mostly relevant only when extremely simple shaders and alpha blending are involved (particles).
A few games successfully render particles at lower res on PS3 (well, on 360 as well, see Lost Planet)and almost no one can tell the difference.

2) shader processing being significantly slower on PS3 -> simply not true, having worked on both platforms I'm very well aware of that. Moreover comments like "which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360" makes me understand that you don't know very well how a modern GPU works. You don't need more fillrate to run a more complex shader; shader ALUs and ROPs have been decoupled for a few years now. What you wrote just doesn't make any logical sense here.

3)processing stuff on SPUs introduce extra latency -> simply false. It's a matter of how you want to implement it. You can do it introducing an extra frame worth of latency..or you can do it in a clever way..(ring buffering? :) )

4)The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3.. -> This is laughable at best. All best practices needed to improve performance on CELL are going to improve performance on 360 as well (in the general case..).
Are you telling me that keeping your dataset small, avoiding branchy code, re-organize your data structures so that you access them in a cache (or local stores) friendly way, etc.. is going to make some code run slower on 360? I would like to know why.. :)

That's enough for now as I fear I'm reaching some kind of quote restriction or something, heh.

Edit: Another thing. The same thing (http://archive.salon.com/tech/log/2000/10/27/playstation_rant/index.html) was said about the PS2 when it was launched. And look how horrible that turned out to be.

oldjadedgamer
10-28-2007, 02:11 AM
Once again you post a wall of text, but make no actual points - nor refute any. You just babble about being an unbiased gamer who just happens to totally hate Microsoft and attack anything you perceive (rightly or wrongly) as negative towards Sony.

But you're not a fanboy...

:rolleyes:

I see I'm not missing anything at all. Was he quoting me about ignoring people?

Chameleo
10-28-2007, 03:15 AM
wow you seem pretty crazy durka-dan.... the lengths you go to tear down this guy's character for his negative comments on the PS3 are amazing.

you're really quite a character. Sony should hire you.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 03:20 AM
you're really quite a character. Sony should hire you.

Or anyone who's under attack by someone who has no real insight into what they are saying, yet are regarded as "knowing what they are talking about" since they work in the industry. Read some of the responses on his blog from other's in the game development industry and you'll find a trend. Why do his peers disagree with him?

Sl1pstream
10-28-2007, 07:23 AM
Marco Salvi worked on Heavenly Sword. A title published by Sony Computer Entertainment. A title that was multiplatform before Sony picked it up. I'm pretty sure they got all the help they needed from Sony, unlike other studios.

Johan
10-28-2007, 07:30 AM
I just threw up the popcorn I had been enjoying. Thanks a lot!

Well...maybe that was because it was purple.

Nah...

Kamalot
10-28-2007, 11:34 AM
...the lengths you go to tear down this guy's character for his negative comments on the PS3 are amazing.

you're really quite a character. Sony should hire you.
There's a reason that the term 'Defense Force' is used. It takes a special kind of dedication to the cause to remain so blind and spend so much effort doing so.

Johan
10-28-2007, 11:37 AM
Why do his peers disagree with him?

Why do the actual results on the PS3 with multiplatform titles disagree with you? Including games supposedly designed from the ground up FOR the PS3 (PES 2008)?

Denial. It's a mighty deep river, with an apparently irresistible current....to some.

Kamalot
10-28-2007, 11:40 AM
Why do the actual results on the PS3 with multiplatform titles disagree with you? Including games supposedly designed from the ground up FOR the PS3 (PES 2008)?

Denial. It's a mighty deep river, with an apparently irresistible current....to some.
Didn't Kaz admit that making games on the PS3 was more difficult, and that he wanted it that way?

Micasa
10-28-2007, 11:42 AM
Didn't Kaz admit that making games on the PS3 was more difficult, and that he wanted it that way?

Careful, that kind of Sony-bashing-Sony crap will make DD's head blow off and YOU'LL be the one cleaning up the mess.

Johan
10-28-2007, 11:45 AM
Didn't Kaz admit that making games on the PS3 was more difficult, and that he wanted it that way?

My point is that, if the SDF wants to ignore anything negative that is said about the PS3, it takes an extra layer of denial and blinders to ignore the actual results in the multiplatform games themselves. That's just a whole new world of stupid, because the games themselves are proving what people are saying.

Sony did the same thing with the PS2, in that creating a complex architecture to develop games for is part of the strategy, so that Sony becomes the lead platform and ports look crappy elsewhere. They're suffering some serious blowback this generation, however. They deserve it.

We need a thread on multiplatform games and links to the complaints about the PS3 versions (delays, slower frame rate, lack of online or issues online, problems with DLC, and on and on). That would be interesting, but I'm just not willing to invest the time. It would be highly interesting, however...

antoniogaud
10-28-2007, 12:04 PM
Ok, good. I'm glad we have someone here who knows the guy.

Could you ask him what game in particular he is talking about? What instance is he refferring to in which he had a hard time porting to the PS3 or sacrificing quality over time?

While I haven't spoken to him lately, while I was his Art Director I have known him to work serious overtime solely to understand the tech of the consoles (or PC cards) we were developing for. For example on Asheron's Call 1 and 2 Jason was the Art Technical director responsible for tech breakdowns on the graphics side and the online capabilities, not a small feat for the first (arguably) MMO in existence. He created toolsets from scratch for company-wide use.

When it comes to technology, Jason knows what he is talking about to a level that makes my (mostly art and design based) knowledge look stupid. He knows all aspects of programming; art, sound, online and workflows. Those that know him regard him with genuine awe and respect.

Harmonics trusts his opinion of tech and so do I. Besides, it isn't like Jason is offering an opinion that has been mirrored by many others.

Slack3r78
10-28-2007, 12:35 PM
Edit: Another thing. The same thing (http://archive.salon.com/tech/log/2000/10/27/playstation_rant/index.html) was said about the PS2 when it was launched. And look how horrible that turned out to be.
What was the most difficult to code for and, ultimately, least powerful console last generation due to an unbalanced hardware design? Wait for it.... the PS2. The PS2 was popular due to inertia, not because it was a great platform to develop for.

Slack3r78
10-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Sony did the same thing with the PS2, in that creating a complex architecture to develop games for is part of the strategy, so that Sony becomes the lead platform and ports look crappy elsewhere. They're suffering some serious blowback this generation, however. They deserve it.
The funny thing being, the PS2 version generally tended to be the worst looking version of multiplatform games, even when it was the lead console. It just plain didn't have the horsepower that the XBox and the Gamecube did.

The PS3 is much closer in terms of raw power to the 360 this time around, but thanks to an unbalanced design, rarely has a chance to really show off what it should be capable of, and this time around Sony doesn't have the PS2's massive install base to rest on.

Johan
10-28-2007, 12:48 PM
The PS3 is much closer in terms of raw power to the 360 this time around, but thanks to an unbalanced design, rarely has a chance to really show off what it should be capable of, and this time around Sony doesn't have the PS2's massive install base to rest on.

We need a thread on this, listing the multiplatform games with problems and what those problems are.

/broken record. :)

Chameleo
10-28-2007, 01:24 PM
watching some of the PS3 fans post in this thread is kinda like watching christians argue that the world was created 2000 years ago.

nothing you say can change their opinion, they'll just defame your character and pull up evidence and foam at the mouth.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 02:25 PM
God I can't wait for some bad news to be posted on the 360 or Wii so I can defend those too. What will that make me then? A fanboy for...? games? It's gonna be hard to do since bad news is rarely posted on the 360 or wii. You guys act like I'm picking and choosing Sony out of all the bads news when Sony is pretty much the only one with news like this.

A lot of people from within the industry and outside of it have said that the cell is hard to program. I believe it when you compare it to the 360's devkit. However, it is easy to just accept everyone's comments without understanding what background they have in what they are saying. For example, you got a bunch of people who climbed a mountain and said it was hard, then along comes a guy that didn't climb it and it's like hold up a sec, who are you? It pisses off those who actually did climb it by belittling their hard work.

Edit: BTW, some of you might be under the impression that I'm saying the cell is easy to program with. I am not. My issue is with the validity of the author's history with the cell.

Chameleo
10-28-2007, 02:31 PM
God I can't wait for some bad news to be posted on the 360 or Wii so I can defend those too. What will that make me then? A fanboy for...? games? It's gonna be hard to do since bad news is rarely posted on the 360 or wii. You guys act like I'm picking and choosing Sony out of all the bads news when Sony is pretty much the only one with news like this.

well there's this one (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38500) on the same page as the one we're talking in, and through two pages, you haven't once yet popped into it to defend the xbox's terrible failure rate.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 02:50 PM
well there's this one (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38500) on the same page as the one we're talking in, and through two pages, you haven't once yet popped into it to defend the xbox's terrible failure rate.

Because I believe the problem was fixed by Microsoft by offering an extended plan and "probably" fixing the main problem in the first place. Nobody, of a higher level in this industry, is saying something false about the 360s. There are still some of them out there that are doomed to die, Microsoft is not gonna come to your house and they sure as hell aren't gonna do a recall. There's nothing more they can do. Bitching about 360 fail rates was cool three months ago, now it's just sad if you still don't understand the situation. If news came in from some Sony, Microsoft, or Wii developer/pr person about how Microsoft is continuing to screw customers with shipping broken 360s then I'd evaluate the source and probably go at them too.

Edit: Not to mention I popped in to read it when it was still about gamestop.

Johan
10-28-2007, 03:30 PM
Edit: BTW, some of you might be under the impression that I'm saying the cell is easy to program with. I am not. My issue is with the validity of the author's history with the cell.

So, you have no problem with the validity of what he says, just a problem with whether he himself directly experienced what he says regarding the PS3?

WTF are you smoking?

Micasa
10-28-2007, 08:02 PM
God I can't wait for some bad news to be posted on the 360 or Wii so I can defend those too. What will that make me then? A fanboy for...? games? It's gonna be hard to do since bad news is rarely posted on the 360 or wii. You guys act like I'm picking and choosing Sony out of all the bads news when Sony is pretty much the only one with news like this.

I believe I already pointed you in the direction of this one (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38102), back when you were declaring Dean Takahashi an idiot with no knowledge of the industry.

Maybe you missed it?

For some reason I doubt that though. And you wonder why people consider you a joke? Come on, you have to have more brain cells left than that. :D

I mean now you're even branching out (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1061927#post1061927) to remain unbiased by bashing Microsoft on non-gaming threads.

Durka-Dan
10-28-2007, 11:49 PM
I believe I already pointed you in the direction of this one (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38102), back when you were declaring Dean Takahashi an idiot with no knowledge of the industry.

Maybe you missed it?

For some reason I doubt that though. And you wonder why people consider you a joke? Come on, you have to have more brain cells left than that. :D

I mean now you're even branching out (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1061927#post1061927) to remain unbiased by bashing Microsoft on non-gaming threads.

I've explained to you twenty thousand times that the Cnet post is an outlook. Do I deny CNET as knowing what they are talking about? hell no. But it's just an outlook. I know that whole thing got your panties in a bind and you need a hug from mommy. I never said I was un-biased. In fact, I said I WAS biased. get over it man. I'm gonna keep on doin what I'm doin and there's nothing you can do about. I'm not breaking any laws here. Chill out man. Like I said, get a job.

Jack B
10-29-2007, 02:09 AM
Because that always ends well.

:D :D KingGorilla, Your posts are actually getting funny lately. Hmmm, I'm not accustomed to laughing at your posts. At least not for straight up funny reasons.

Jack B
10-29-2007, 02:11 AM
Oh, and I was going to respond to Sandman's post, but 187,038 people already did, so I'll just say, I think game developers bust their ass and aren't the least bit lazy. Unless you call 60 hours a week lazy. :D

Jack B
10-29-2007, 02:13 AM
watching some of the PS3 fans post in this thread is kinda like watching christians argue that the world was created 2000 years ago.

nothing you say can change their opinion, they'll just defame your character and pull up evidence and foam at the mouth.

2,000? I heard it was 6,000 years old... :confused:

carnage11
10-29-2007, 12:44 PM
Oh, and I was going to respond to Sandman's post, but 187,038 people already did, so I'll just say, I think game developers bust their ass and aren't the least bit lazy. Unless you call 60 hours a week lazy. :D

60 hours? Shit...that's a cake walk. Try 110 hours. Try 28 hour days! Game development sucks! When Beta hits, you might as well bring a sleeping bag.....cause you're not going home.:(

violentp
10-29-2007, 12:50 PM
60 hours? Shit...that's a cake walk. Try 110 hours. Try 28 hour days! Game development sucks! When Beta hits, you might as well bring a sleeping bag.....cause you're not going home.:(

I know what rough weeks are all about. I'm pulling in about 33 hours a week. That shit ain't easy.

Johan
10-29-2007, 12:54 PM
I know what rough weeks are all about. I'm pulling in about 33 hours a week. That shit ain't easy.

Shhhh!

I get thirteen weeks of vacation a year. Plus ten holidays. Plus twelve sick days and five personal days. In fact, I work just barely over half the days in any given year (190 days).

I don't make a lot, but I don't give a crap. Time is more valuable to me than money.

Life is rough, man! :D

violentp
10-29-2007, 12:59 PM
Shhhh!

I get thirteen weeks of vacation a year. Plus ten holidays. Plus twelve sick days and five personal days. In fact, I work just barely over half the days in any given year (190 days).

I don't make a lot, but I don't give a crap. Time is more valuable to me than money.

Life is rough, man! :D

You don't think I know this? Only reason I ever considered being a teacher. Plus talking literature all day must be nice.

Johan
10-29-2007, 01:03 PM
Plus talking literature all day must be nice.

I have a total blast with my seniors. Now, my sophomores? Oh dear...feels like drilling nails into my brain.

Who would have thought that two years could make so much of a difference cognitively, maturationally, and otherwise?!!? It sure does.

Back to grading! :)

Draconis
10-29-2007, 01:05 PM
God I can't wait for some bad news to be posted on the 360 or Wii so I can defend those too. What will that make me then? A fanboy for...? games? It's gonna be hard to do since bad news is rarely posted on the 360 or wii. You guys act like I'm picking and choosing Sony out of all the bads news when Sony is pretty much the only one with news like this.



Dude, you CLEARLY haven't been around for when almost an entire week nothing but 360 Warranty problems/failure rate stories/hate filled vitriolic bile was posted for news stories. Hell, they still happen as news stories.

Have you been paying attention? There's PLENTY of 360 hate on this site. Just look at most of us Rip into Halo for example, or how the site handled the Halo 3 Launch.

Yeesh. Take off the blinders.

Draconis
10-29-2007, 01:06 PM
I have a total blast with my seniors. Now, my sophomores? Oh dear...feels like drilling nails into my brain.

Who would have thought that two years could make so much of a difference cognitively, maturationally, and otherwise?!!? It sure does.

Back to grading! :)


You know Johan, suddenly, your cynicism makes ALOT more sense to me now. You have my sympathies.

Jack B
10-29-2007, 01:46 PM
60 hours? Shit...that's a cake walk. Try 110 hours. Try 28 hour days! Game development sucks! When Beta hits, you might as well bring a sleeping bag.....cause you're not going home.:(

110 hours! Well, you obviously "aren't" a PS3 programmer. I've heard the reason some PS3 games are late and perform worse is because the PS3 programmers are lazy. They ship games late and at fewer frames per second and it's a cake walk. I'm betting PS3 developers only work about 20 hours a week. Lazy bastards... :D Those hard working 360 developers should take more breaks like the PS3 programmers.

On the other hand, it does seem odd, that with some PS3 titles shipping late the programmers don't feel the pressure to ship product. It guess the PS3 project managers are also lazy and just let just everyone kick back... It doesn't seem to add up, but on the other hand the SDF are the experts on all things PS3, so PS3 developers "must" be lazy... It's definitely not the PS3, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

Kamalot
10-29-2007, 03:23 PM
110 hours! Well, you obviously "aren't" a PS3 programmer. I've heard the reason some PS3 games are late and perform worse is because the PS3 programmers are lazy. They ship games late and at fewer frames per second and it's a cake walk. I'm betting PS3 developers only work about 20 hours a week. Lazy bastards... :D Those hard working 360 developers should take more breaks like the PS3 programmers.

On the other hand, it does seem odd, that with some PS3 titles shipping late the programmers don't feel the pressure to ship product. It guess the PS3 project managers are also lazy and just let just everyone kick back... It doesn't seem to add up, but on the other hand the SDF are the experts on all things PS3, so PS3 developers "must" be lazy... It's definitely not the PS3, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

Woah damn. It is getting deep in here.

Evil Avnovice
10-29-2007, 04:16 PM
Wow. I thought this news item died off long ago. :eek:

Dirty Harry
10-29-2007, 05:57 PM
hell hath no fury like an enraged mass of nerds....

TeeCakes
10-29-2007, 06:17 PM
My point is that, if the SDF wants to ignore anything negative that is said about the PS3, it takes an extra layer of denial and blinders to ignore the actual results in the multiplatform games themselves. That's just a whole new world of stupid, because the games themselves are proving what people are saying.

Sony did the same thing with the PS2, in that creating a complex architecture to develop games for is part of the strategy, so that Sony becomes the lead platform and ports look crappy elsewhere. They're suffering some serious blowback this generation, however. They deserve it.

If that was your point, then congrats for stating a biased opinion. Here's mine-- Sony's PS3 uses a high-def medium and a unique system to deliver potentially-better games. The fact of the matter is, developers have had a year to get ruined from the Xbox 360's slacktacular engine to get 'bumped' into the next gen. This naturally hurts the PS3 when dev kits get released later, and people need to unlearn things.

We need a thread on multiplatform games and links to the complaints about the PS3 versions (delays, slower frame rate, lack of online or issues online, problems with DLC, and on and on). That would be interesting, but I'm just not willing to invest the time. It would be highly interesting, however...

However I'm sure you could find a similar amount of issues/problems/delays/complaints/blah/bias/hack/cough against any other system, console, product, man, plant, animal, you've just been SDF'ed, Jo.

carnage11
10-29-2007, 06:37 PM
If that was your point, then congrats for stating a biased opinion. Here's mine-- Sony's PS3 uses a high-def medium and a unique system to deliver potentially-better games. The fact of the matter is, developers have had a year to get ruined from the Xbox 360's slacktacular engine to get 'bumped' into the next gen. This naturally hurts the PS3 when dev kits get released later, and people need to unlearn things.



However I'm sure you could find a similar amount of issues/problems/delays/complaints/blah/bias/hack/cough against any other system, console, product, man, plant, animal, you've just been SDF'ed, Jo.



nah.....when the PS3 dev kits crash we all take a cigarette break. needless to say we're all dying of lung cancer now.:D

Johan
10-29-2007, 06:48 PM
If that was your point, then congrats for stating a biased opinion

Bias: In the eye of the beholder. See my sig. (second quote) :D

BTW:

http://www.luclin.org/files/jamond/Retarded.jpg

Durka-Dan
10-29-2007, 06:51 PM
Bias: In the eye of the beholder.

See my sig. (second quote) :D

The difference is, you really think you can never be wrong. It's that Johan reputation that's like "meh, don't bother arguing with him, if he doesn't win with facts he'll flame ya".

Johan
10-29-2007, 06:53 PM
The difference is, you really think you can never be wrong.

Well aren't you clever! :D

It's that Johan reputation that's like "meh, don't bother arguing with him, if he doesn't win with facts he'll flame ya".

Let me introduce you to your fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well)

Run along now... :D

BlackPete
10-29-2007, 07:45 PM
If that was your point, then congrats for stating a biased opinion. Here's mine-- Sony's PS3 uses a high-def medium and a unique system to deliver potentially-better games. The fact of the matter is, developers have had a year to get ruined from the Xbox 360's slacktacular engine to get 'bumped' into the next gen. This naturally hurts the PS3 when dev kits get released later, and people need to unlearn things.

That's not true. The PS3 devkits are getting a *lot* of use around here. They make great footrests.

violentp
10-29-2007, 07:52 PM
That's not true. The PS3 devkits are getting a *lot* of use around here. They make great footrests.

Yeah, umm, do what you do as long as it's not comedy. I request this solely as a fan of comedy.

BTW, this thread licks balls.

carnage11
10-29-2007, 07:59 PM
Yeah, umm, do what you do as long as it's not comedy. I request this solely as a fan of comedy.

BTW, this thread licks balls.

One man's garbage is another's treasure. I thought it was quite funny.:D

violentp
10-29-2007, 08:05 PM
One man's garbage is another's treasure. I thought it was quite funny.:D

I got a couple of knock-knock jokes that'll really make you think then.


I kid. I just find people knocking on the PS3 for the sake of knocking is about as old as a pair of Kanga's I owned in '82.

BlackPete
10-29-2007, 08:26 PM
I got a couple of knock-knock jokes that'll really make you think then.

I kid. I just find people knocking on the PS3 for the sake of knocking is about as old as a pair of Kanga's I owned in '82.

I protest! That's nowhere near as funny as my joke was! :confused:

But realistically people are taking the PS3 criticisms way too personally -- it's just a hunk of PCB, resistors, capacitors, and wiring. Its feelings can't be hurt.

violentp
10-29-2007, 08:31 PM
I protest! That's nowhere near as funny as my joke was! :confused:

But realistically people are taking the PS3 criticisms way too personally -- it's just a hunk of PCB, resistors, capacitors, and wiring. Its feelings can't be hurt.

I understand what you mean and it's true. I'm just complaining about frequency, not subject.

EDIT: C'mon, Kangas? That's classic shit right there.

carnage11
10-29-2007, 10:39 PM
I understand what you mean and it's true. I'm just complaining about frequency, not subject.

EDIT: C'mon, Kangas? That's classic shit right there.

Kangas? 82? that would have made me 1 year old. guess thats why i didn't get. sorry gramps.:p

Windsong
10-29-2007, 11:02 PM
"Our devs will work twice as hard for our games..and love every minute of it!" -- Krazy Ken

;)

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 12:13 AM
Well aren't you clever! :D



Let me introduce you to your fallacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well)

Run along now... :D

Just by saying someone is wrong hasn't proved anything, which isn't a logical fallacy in your case since you're not using any logic at all with your argument, so I'm sorry I can't link you with a clever wiki page of the strategy your using. I've proved the author of the article has neither the programming experience or education on a professional level to be considered an expert on the subject. The method in which my argument is presented is called deductive reasoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_argument). The method you linked to states the following: 1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.
2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.
All the information I've provided is factual, with links back to their sources. So with that in mind, obviously you don't find the information in your favor and therefore, as I've stated before, "any claims person A makes will be false" which is how you feel about pro-Sony posts in general. Which pretty much sums up your attempts to derail anyone posting anything which might fall in Sony's favor.

Edit: Oops. Forgot to put something witty at the end. That way it makes you look like you know something the other person doesn't and won the argument through wit alone. Umm.. "Run along now... :D".. .. man that was lame.. I guess it doesn't make you look smart after all.

Micasa
10-30-2007, 12:28 AM
"I've proved the author of the article has neither the programming experience or education on a professional level to be considered an expert on the subject."

How did you prove that, when one of his former coworkers claimed he was extremely competent in every field he discussed? Oh right, you selectively ignored that. Well played.

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 12:44 AM
How did you prove that, when one of his former coworkers claimed he was extremely competent in every field he discussed? Oh right, you selectively ignored that. Well played.

That's purely hearsay. Opinion at best. His job listing, education, and personal testimony about what he did for those games says otherwise.

Jack B
10-30-2007, 12:46 AM
I understand what you mean and it's true. I'm just complaining about frequency, not subject.

The frequency happens, because the SDF still exists to make these threads interesting.

You've probably noticed we don't get a lot of debate around here whether the Earth is flat or round. It's mostly because all the people who believed it was flat have either died or gone underground. The SDF is still alive and well. So, for now these threads keep popping up.

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 12:54 AM
I've proved the author of the article has neither the programming experience or education on a professional level to be considered an expert on the subject.

Where?

Because, it would be impossible for someone who knows even less about the subject, to judge someone elses level of understanding in reference to it.

Your fanboy blindness aside, he worked everyday under the same roof as a PS3 development kit, even if he was never part of the coding team that worked directly with it, he would still have been aware if the PS3 team was having problems and probably would have heard the engineers bitching as to why; or, maybe he just heard what most developers where saying and said that;).

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 01:11 AM
Where?

Because, it would be impossible for someone who knows even less about the subject, to judge someone elses level of understanding in reference to it.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. To say that because you're not AS knowledgeable on a particular subject then someone else means you can't judge them is wrong. Do I really need to explain this? Come on..

As for your comment on working under the same roof and all that, just because the man might have over heard some programmer griping about it or that he worked in the same building does not, by any means, make him a professional in the area in which he wrote about. Further more, to backup my reasoning that he is not a professional or knowledgeable in the technicalities of programming for the cell, his blog reaks of flaws. Check my previous post where those flaws are explained more in detail.

Exodus
10-30-2007, 01:11 AM
Although, to actually add some discussion:

The problem is, at the core, that Sony designed their system in a way that depends on it dominating the market. You will have no problem having the hardest to code on system as long as developers have to use it - over time, the tricks will become more well known and developers will have more experience with them. This has the added bonus of making it difficult to port your games to competitors.

However, this is assuming that developers are obligated to develop for your machine during the first year or two. They are not this time around.

Again, their whole business model crumples under the stupid price, which was controlled by BluRay. Without the BluRay player having to compete with HD-DVD, they could have released this year, one SKU, $400, and all the other problems would just melt away. The system would have sold like crazy on release, and developers would be nearly forced to make games on it, making these complaints just never happen in the first place.

I think another big thing was, they were probably banking on bluray as a reason developers would flock to them as well, I remember they were trying to make a huge usp about it but I haven't heard anything since the pgr fiasco.

Well put TFO

Exodus
10-30-2007, 01:17 AM
As for your comment on working under the same roof and all that, just because the man might have over heard some programmer griping about it or that he worked in the same building does not, by any means, make him a professional in the area in which he wrote about. Further more, to backup my reasoning that he is not a professional or knowledgeable in the technicalities of programming for the cell, his blog reaks of flaws. Check my previous post where those flaws are explained more in detail.

This is not entirely true. An executive producer doesn't necessarily have to have higher programming knowledge just an understanding, shit has to be scheduled and it needs to be done yesterday, if something's fucking up the works it's their job to find out what the fuck is going on, it is a resource game in a way like it was said and he probably didn't overhear shit if he's producing he probably got pissed off and asked them what the hell's going on before he starts cracking the whip.

This is assuming he is the producer of course or the design lead.

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 01:36 AM
This is not entirely true. An executive producer doesn't necessarily have to have higher programming knowledge just an understanding, shit has to be scheduled and it needs to be done yesterday, if something's fucking up the works it's their job to find out what the fuck is going on, it is a resource game in a way like it was said and he probably didn't overhear shit if he's producing he probably got pissed off and asked them what the hell's going on before he starts cracking the whip.

This is assuming he is the producer of course or the design lead.

How much general understanding is needed? According to another industry expert, his comments leads him to believe that he doesn't know the basic workings of a modern GPU, according to his article.

I appreciate your input on this.

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 01:50 AM
That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. To say that because you're not AS knowledgeable on a particular subject then someone else means you can't judge them is wrong. Do I really need to explain this? Come on..

And the fact that you think my post is dumb, exactly proves my point.

Since, you're not wise enough to know NOT to judge, plus, you compound your ignorance my judging others about their lack of understanding when you yourself don't understand enough about the subject, and, most alarmingly, you think this is what you should do, you are showing me you are not knowledgable enough to consider your judgment of him valid.

Johan
10-30-2007, 05:17 AM
Just by saying someone is wrong hasn't proved anything

That certainly sums up your contributions to this epic, hilarious thread.

Thank you for bringing the funny! :D

That's purely hearsay. Opinion at best. His job listing, education, and personal testimony about what he did for those games says otherwise.

Your evidence IS HEARSAY!

What a moron...which is not hearsay. Your words prove that! :D

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 06:02 AM
That certainly sums up your contributions to this epic, hilarious thread.

Thank you for bringing the funny! :D



Your evidence IS HEARSAY!

What a moron...which is not hearsay. Your words prove that! :D

yes.. hearsay.. from himself in an interview :rolleyes: let this thread die.

NeoSuplex
10-30-2007, 06:29 AM
http://www.luclin.org/files/jamond/Retarded.jpg
That picture is meant to read: "Out of Range."
And also have a Wii-mote

Kamalot
10-30-2007, 07:32 AM
How did you prove that, when one of his former coworkers claimed he was extremely competent in every field he discussed? Oh right, you selectively ignored that. Well played.
That's purely hearsay. Opinion at best. His job listing, education, and personal testimony about what he did for those games says otherwise.
This is comedy gold. Thanks for making my morning sparkle Durka.

Paranoia runs deep (http://www.gapingvoid.com/paranoia%20management-thumb.jpg)

silv
10-30-2007, 08:17 AM
This thread is awesome.

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 11:51 AM
yes.. hearsay.. from himself in an interview :rolleyes: let this thread die.

Sorry:(, I can't resist, you made it too much fun:D!

So, let me get this straight:

Hearsay, from a forum poster, who also works in the industry, and, by the way, also is backing up the fact that the Cell has bottlenecks and is a bitch to code for, is supposed to sway me less than flawed reasoning based on some blog of someone who dosen't post here, so I can't get a clarification of what he meant, plus, by a poster who hasn't shown much ability to understand the obvious?

I don't think so.

This "Booth" character's opinion wouldn't mean diddly if he were the only one saying it, but, at this point, he is just a drop in the bucket of people who talk about PS3 developement difficulties. And, that is only if all I had to rely on was other's opinions; however, the PS3 specific delays, lower fps and the lack of games that take advantage of the "Cell/BluRay difference" is enough emperical evidence for me to rely on.

The PS3 will eventually have great games, but don't delude yourself, they will take much longer and be much harder to optimize than they would/will be on the other platforms.

Cause Booth said so.

violentp
10-30-2007, 11:54 AM
Kangas? 82? that would have made me 1 year old. guess thats why i didn't get. sorry gramps.:p

And I was three sonny. We probably shit our pants on the same day once in our past.

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 12:05 PM
And I was three sonny. We probably shit our pants on the same day once in our past.

And hopefully you both live long enough to do it again.

violentp
10-30-2007, 12:06 PM
And hopefully you both live long enough to do it again.

Funny, I thought the same thing. Then I though maybe one of us won't. Maybe both. Then I went to see the Bigfoot pic.

Exodus
10-30-2007, 12:09 PM
How much general understanding is needed? According to another industry expert, his comments leads him to believe that he doesn't know the basic workings of a modern GPU, according to his article.

I appreciate your input on this.

lol there's a reason game design documents are seperate from the technical design documents and there's a reason the producer writes the gdd and the tech/programming team writes the tech design document seperate, different hats, however if you can do both superbly you can probably just go for design architect job yielding MUCH HIGHER pay. :)

carnage11
10-30-2007, 12:21 PM
Funny, I thought the same thing. Then I though maybe one of us won't. Maybe both. Then I went to see the Bigfoot pic.


According to deathclock.com I'll die when I'm 56.:(

Hopefully I'm not shitting my pants at the age of 56.

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 12:33 PM
According to deathclock.com I'll die when I'm 56.:(



What's it gonna be?

Heart attack during OT of team deathmatch?

violentp
10-30-2007, 12:34 PM
According to deathclock.com I'll die when I'm 56.:(

Hopefully I'm not shitting my pants at the age of 56.

68 for me. I refuse to die with soiled underoos. Where are my smokes?

carnage11
10-30-2007, 01:38 PM
What's it gonna be?

Heart attack during OT of team deathmatch?


Heart attack during sex I'm hoping.

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 02:06 PM
Hearsay, from a forum poster, who also works in the industry, and, by the way, also is backing up the fact that the Cell has bottlenecks and is a bitch to code for
Check my posts. I am aware of the fact that the Cell is hard to work with. Not denying that.

This "Booth" character's opinion wouldn't mean diddly if he were the only one saying it, but, at this point, he is just a drop in the bucket of people who talk about PS3 developement difficulties.
No, this "Booth" character's comments is the equivalent to someone who speaks of things that he does not have direct contact with. An analogy: I worked at NASA as head operations manager for our flight team and therefore I am an expert on knowing what it feels like to be in space. No, this man does not have experience working on the cell directly so his comments should have as much weight as any other person in the industry with no experience in the matter. Just because you know a guy who had sex with a double amputee doesn't mean you know what it's like. So when it comes time to comment on the difficulty of working with the cell, or how space felt, or what it's like to have sex with a double amputee, your not speaking from experience and can only give a general description of what it was like based on what your friend/coworker said. Which means, it would have been appropriate, based on his experience with the problem, to comment like, "I hear it's pretty hard to do and our development team had trouble with it." But he's assuming the role of someone who's actually been there. Someone who paid for the schooling and had the ambitions to get where he is as a programmer. Not what he truly is. A college dropout who struck it lucky with a company that was going places. The way his life was going, he should still be doing theater or music.

The PS3 will eventually have great games, but don't delude yourself, they will take much longer and be much harder to optimize than they would/will be on the other platforms.
I know you like to get up on your high horse and preach down to us unworthies, but I hate to break it to you that I'm not refuting the fact that the PS3 is hard to develop for.

Don't delude yourself in thinking that everyone here supporting Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo is blind of the consoles obvious shortcomings.

Kamalot
10-30-2007, 02:12 PM
An analogy: I worked at NASA as head operations manager for our flight team and therefore I am an expert on knowing what it feels like to be in space.

I was wondering where you'd gotten to. I was feeling down, but this little analogy picked me right back up again. Thanks! :D

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 02:13 PM
I was wondering where you'd gotten to. I was feeling down, but this little analogy picked me right back up again. Thanks! :D

Thank you. I'll be here all night. :o

BlackPete
10-30-2007, 02:42 PM
Check my posts. I am aware of the fact that the Cell is hard to work with. Not denying that.

Does this mean you have had direct experience with cell programming?

No, this man does not have experience working on the cell directly so his comments should have as much weight as any other person in the industry with no experience in the matter. Just because you know a guy who had sex with a double amputee doesn't mean you know what it's like. So when it comes time to comment on the difficulty of working with the cell, or how space felt, or what it's like to have sex with a double amputee, your not speaking from experience and can only give a general description of what it was like based on what your friend/coworker said.

If, for the sake of argument, it is true that it's just "hearsay" that he actually had direct knowledge and is instead relying on what coworkers are saying (and let's also ignore the fact that he's taken up programming), it doesn't take a NASA double amputee to put two and two together.

More complex programming = more R&D and programming time = shipping scheduling gets affected = more delays = salesmen, marketers, producers, customers, everyone get unhappy.

Evil Avnovice
10-30-2007, 02:45 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/goingplaces.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1235)

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 02:54 PM
and let's also ignore the fact that he's taken up programming
He may very well have taken up programming. That means or proves nothing. What does prove something, like how much experience he has with his new found hobby, is the technical mistakes he made in his blog about it.
More complex programming = more R&D and programming time = shipping scheduling gets affected = more delays = salesmen, marketers, producers, customers, everyone get unhappy.
Understood. Not arguing that. Arguing this man's role as a good source on the subject or whether he's just trying to get a cheap jab on the topic seeing as how Sony is now his new company's competitor.

Micasa
10-30-2007, 03:01 PM
What does prove something, like how much experience he has with his new found hobby, is the technical mistakes he made in his blog about it.

I think it's funny that you 'know' about these technical mistakes because of someone else's post, someone whose word - of course - you took at face value, without hesitation.

ThirdRail
10-30-2007, 03:02 PM
lol there's a reason game design documents are seperate from the technical design documents and there's a reason the producer writes the gdd and the tech/programming team writes the tech design document seperate, different hats, however if you can do both superbly you can probably just go for design architect job yielding MUCH HIGHER pay. :)

well yes and no. the two aren't mutually exclusive. the process works best when the GDD is written by a designer first and the eggheads come along and turn the design requirements into technical requirements explaining to the designers what each feature is going to cost in terms of resources. then there is a lot of back and forth. that's when the real game design begins. negotiation can actually get somewhat tense during that time. The tech people want to keep the designers based in reality and the designers want the tech people to understand that the features they have designed out integral to the game. it's such a back and forth process you can say that both departments end up writing both documents so to speak. True, designers are never going to contribute to to multi-threading section and the eggheads stay out of the cut scene section but it's all born out of collaboration. I've never worked with anyone that had a true understanding of both sides of the ball. It's so competitive for positions these days, you almost have to specialize. the good people are the ones that can understand both sides, come up with good compromises, and get on board with the other side.

//my 39 cents

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 03:04 PM
I think it's funny that you 'know' about these technical mistakes because of someone else's post, someone whose word - of course - you took at face value, without hesitation.

I think it's funny how you and others focus on MY understanding of the cell while distracting attention away from the argument and the factual information I've presented. Do you want to contact the author of those comments and let him know he's wrong?

Johan
10-30-2007, 03:05 PM
Please: DON'T STOP NOW! (http://www.squarefree.com/blogimages/108_0805-50p.jpg) :D

Micasa
10-30-2007, 03:10 PM
I think it's funny how you and others focus on MY understanding of the cell while distracting attention away from the argument and the factual information I've presented.

Again, your "factual information" is no more verified than Booth's ramblings. I just pointed out that you declared it "factual information" despite that, something you apparently didn't notice or can't comprehend, while also ignoring completely the people - also in the industry - who supported what Booth said.

The guy who says something negative is automatically wrong, the random guy who says he's wrong is automatically right? How is it that you claim to not be a fanboy without cracking up?

Johan
10-30-2007, 03:15 PM
The guy who says something negative is automatically wrong, the random guy who says he's wrong is automatically right? How is it that you claim to not be a fanboy without cracking up?

I pointed that out in post #183.

Waste of breath...but fun! Maybe we should circle up and do an intervention...

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 03:20 PM
I think it's funny how you and others focus on MY understanding of the cell while distracting attention away from the argument and the factual information I've presented. Do you want to contact the author of those comments and let him know he's wrong?

He's not wrong, Marco is, and since you trust his opinion, ipso facto, you're wrong, too.

silv
10-30-2007, 03:22 PM
I think I've seen some articles by Durka-Dan on sonydefenseforce.com.

Exodus
10-30-2007, 03:29 PM
well yes and no. the two aren't mutually exclusive. the process works best when the GDD is written by a designer first and the eggheads come along and turn the design requirements into technical requirements explaining to the designers what each feature is going to cost in terms of resources. then there is a lot of back and forth. that's when the real game design begins. negotiation can actually get somewhat tense during that time. The tech people want to keep the designers based in reality and the designers want the tech people to understand that the features they have designed out integral to the game. it's such a back and forth process you can say that both departments end up writing both documents so to speak. True, designers are never going to contribute to to multi-threading section and the eggheads stay out of the cut scene section but it's all born out of collaboration. I've never worked with anyone that had a true understanding of both sides of the ball. It's so competitive for positions these days, you almost have to specialize. the good people are the ones that can understand both sides, come up with good compromises, and get on board with the other side.

//my 39 cents

oh I know that they aren't exclusive hence why I said if you can do both you're definitely the shit :D, and yeah you totally have to specialize -_- the problem is specializing and trying to get the understanding of the otherside at the same time, it ain't peaches and unless you take a real interest on the otherside.. the only other option is gaining experience

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 03:30 PM
Check my posts. I am aware of the fact that the Cell is hard to work with. Not denying that.

So you kept bumping this to prove that Booth's opinion isn't worth listening to, even though you agree with it? Still without any good reason to listen to YOUR opinion?

I'm glad you realise the shortcomings are there, not sure why you want to disreguard Booth's assessment of why.

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 03:38 PM
So you kept bumping this to prove that Booth's opinion isn't worth listening to, even though you agree with it? Still without any good reason to listen to YOUR opinion?

I'm glad you realise the shortcomings are there, not sure why you want to disreguard Booth's assessment of why.

I dislike people very much who self promote themselves to somebody they are not to take advantage of a situation they simply are not an authority on.

Evil Avnovice
10-30-2007, 03:40 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/4/thread_direction.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=752)

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 03:41 PM
yea this thread is done. somebody close it.

Slack3r78
10-30-2007, 03:49 PM
yea this thread is done. somebody close it.

But the life you're getting out of an ad hominem argument is impressive.

Kamalot
10-30-2007, 03:58 PM
I have found that people asking to have a thread closed have often times painted themselves into a corner.

Johan
10-30-2007, 04:04 PM
I have found that people asking to have a thread closed have often times painted themselves into a corner.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/88/42/23424288.jpg

BlackPete
10-30-2007, 04:09 PM
yea this thread is done. somebody close it.

Emperor Palpatine voice:
Give yourself over to the forces of the wrong. It is OK to be wrong. Just admit you were wrong. It's easier. Why hold yourself back?
/end Emperor Palpatine voice

Kamalot
10-30-2007, 04:20 PM
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/EvAvThreadisdone.jpg

Thanks Johan

Johan
10-30-2007, 04:41 PM
^^^That is so awesome. The "Evil" eye looks like the blob from a 1950s horror flick!

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 05:56 PM
I have found that people asking to have a thread closed have often times painted themselves into a corner.

Alright cool. Let's keep going than. My points are still valid and my facts are still.. facts? Balls in your court. I figured we'd close it since nobody wants to contribute anything more intelligent than, "oh.. yeah? well.. you don't know nuttin about nuttin, fanboy."

Just a reminder, we are talking about whether Jason Booth is qualified enough on the subject of cell programming to count as another " drop in the bucket" or whether he's just pretending to know what it's like to program with the cell and fulfilling a personal agenda. Seriously, don't expect me to reply to anything then that in this thread from now on.

Johan
10-30-2007, 05:59 PM
Just a reminder

http://www.completeyourdissertation.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/treadmillrunning.gif

http://moroccanmaryam.typepad.com/my_marrakesh/images/doubt_3.jpg

BlackPete
10-30-2007, 06:00 PM
Just a reminder, we are talking about whether Jason Booth is qualified enough on the subject of cell programming to count as another " drop in the bucket" or whether he's just pretending to know what it's like to program with the cell and fulfilling a personal agenda. Seriously, don't expect me to reply to anything then that in this thread from now on.

I think that's the point where people stopped caring. If he's right, then who cares whether he's qualified to say it or not?

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 06:17 PM
I think that's the point where people stopped caring. If he's right, then who cares whether he's qualified to say it or not?

Said the same thing on page 7. Like I said, I dislike it when people (Jason) jump in just to say something. It's cheap, especially if it really didn't need clarifying. We already know it. Now he's just trying to be special.

carnage11
10-30-2007, 07:14 PM
Said the same thing on page 7. Like I said, I dislike it when people (Jason) jump in just to say something. It's cheap, especially if it really didn't need clarifying. We already know it. Now he's just trying to be special.

oh.. yeah? well.. you don't know nuttin about nuttin, fanboy.




:D

the soUL TRAder
10-30-2007, 07:33 PM
Alright, I'll play by your rules, if you think that will help; although, I still think you are reading something that isn't there on Booth's "self promotion".
He is a guy in the industry with a blog, just like your boy Marco, he's a dime a dozen, and what he is saying isn't that earth shattering.



......about whether Jason Booth is qualified enough on the subject of cell programming to count as another " drop in the bucket" or whether he's just pretending to know what it's like to program with the cell and fulfilling a personal agenda...........

For me, he qualifies because when you work for a game company, no matter in what capacity, you will, at very least, be around when the companies challenges are being discussed, and, may have as much insider knowledge as, hearing co-workers you are close to that work with the cell bitching about the exact reason they hate working with it.
Even if he had zero formal training in electrical engineering or software engineering, the general knowledge of being part of a company that puts software onto hardware would give someone the knowledge to understand the problem, even if they don't have the training to find a solution.

So, what is your proof that his assessment as to why the PS3 is difficult to develope for is invalid? He works in the industry, but, because he didn't study engineering, he was unable to learn anything useful about game developement architecture?

That might be true of some people who are completely left brain with little mechanical/analytical inclination, but I'd figure there are very few of those that work at game studios.

Durka-Dan
10-30-2007, 08:34 PM
Alright, I'll play by your rules, if you think that will help; although, I still think you are reading something that isn't there on Booth's "self promotion".
He is a guy in the industry with a blog, just like your boy Marco, he's a dime a dozen, and what he is saying isn't that earth shattering.





For me, he qualifies because when you work for a game company, no matter in what capacity, you will, at very least, be around when the companies challenges are being discussed, and, may have as much insider knowledge as, hearing co-workers you are close to that work with the cell bitching about the exact reason they hate working with it.
Even if he had zero formal training in electrical engineering or software engineering, the general knowledge of being part of a company that puts software onto hardware would give someone the knowledge to understand the problem, even if they don't have the training to find a solution.

So, what is your proof that his assessment as to why the PS3 is difficult to develope for is invalid? He works in the industry, but, because he didn't study engineering, he was unable to learn anything useful about game developement architecture?

That might be true of some people who are completely left brain with little mechanical/analytical inclination, but I'd figure there are very few of those that work at game studios.

I got self promotion by his blog profile which says engineer. To me it was kind of insulting when I heard he dropped out of college. Then I was under the impression that his job worked mainly with graphic artists for Guitar Hero. Then I thought of all the games he might have ported to PS3 and it really only consists of guitar hero (2?) and rock band. I have some degree of programming experience and some common sense to tell that those two games aren't exactly full of complex algorithms or thread intensive. So I'm wondering if the programmers he had on his team were THAT bad that they might have given him a false impression that porting was hard

Evil Avnovice
10-30-2007, 08:45 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/Ilikewherethisthreadisgoing.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1789)

Micasa
10-30-2007, 08:48 PM
I got self promotion by his blog profile which says engineer. To me it was kind of insulting when I heard he dropped out of college. Then I was under the impression that his job worked mainly with graphic artists for Guitar Hero. Then I thought of all the games he might have ported to PS3 and it really only consists of guitar hero (2?) and rock band. I have some degree of programming experience and some common sense to tell that those two games aren't exactly full of complex algorithms or thread intensive. So I'm wondering if the programmers he had on his team were THAT bad that they might have given him a false impression that porting was hard

So once again your "facts" are nothing but your "thoughts" on it? You continue to ignore guys like Gabe Newell, who have said the same things about the PS3? You also ignore another person on this thread who supported Booth, and spoke to his competence?

You should really start putting the word 'fact' in quotes, because you obviously have only the faintest inkling of what it means.

Kamalot
10-30-2007, 11:19 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/Ilikewherethisthreadisgoing.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1789)

This is incredibly funny. Thank You! :D

Kamalot
10-30-2007, 11:37 PM
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/ThreadGrateSmall.jpg

Evil Avnovice
10-31-2007, 12:44 AM
This is incredibly funny. Thank You! :D

Seriously! :D Someone needs to stop replying.

Kamalot
10-31-2007, 01:08 AM
Seriously! :D Someone needs to stop replying.
No way man. It is late at night, and I'm having fun makin animated GIFS and 'I like where this thread is going' images.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/transformers.gif

Evil Avnovice
10-31-2007, 01:13 AM
No way man. It is late at night, and I'm having fun makin animated GIFS and 'I like where this thread is going' images.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/transformers.gif

Dood, don't encourage it. :p

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/34/flame.jpg (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=1311)

crunchyshorts
10-31-2007, 04:08 AM
The Ps3 Is Like The N64 Too Hard To Develop For , N64 Failed And The Weaker Ps1 Won , History Is Repeating Itself

violentp
10-31-2007, 09:36 AM
The Ps3 Is Like The N64 Too Hard To Develop For , N64 Failed And The Weaker Ps1 Won , History Is Repeating Itself

Holy shit!

Johan
10-31-2007, 09:47 AM
Holy shit!

Drop the holy! Emphasis on the shit! ;)

violentp
10-31-2007, 09:51 AM
Drop the holy! Emphasis on the shit! ;)

Well you're a teacher. I think that gives you right to judge where I'm simply an observer and hence capable of expressing nothing further than awe.

BlackPete
10-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Holy shit!

Hey, that's an excellent idea! Were you thinking of something like this?

http://www.foureyesjokeshop.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=382