Beautiful Katamari DLC Is A Ripoff

[mikeohara]

I was scouring Digg and came across this story, the full story below is from Filefront.

Don’t go running to your Xbox 360 to grab the new Beautiful Katamari content; unless you live in Asia, you don’t have access to this stuff. There are four new levels available for the game, each running you 200 Microsoft Points. I’ve got no problem with that, but it’s more the fact that, according to Destructoid, the downloads are only 384 kb, i.e. the content is already on the disc, and you’re purchasing a key to unlock it.

If you listened through the entirety of last week’s podcast, you’ll know this is precisely what I ranted about. Downloadable content that amounts to nothing more than a ripoff; this is stuff you have right on the disc that you purchased, only you aren’t able to access it until you fork over even MORE money than you already have.

Sure, it doesn’t affect those in North America or Europe (for now, at least), but it’s not like this kind of practice hasn’t been pulled in this hemisphere in various games. It’s a practice that really needs to stop, and there’s no chance that’s going to happen until more people realize what’s happening.

Link to the story: Here! (http://news.filefront.com/new-beautiful-katamari-dlc-is-a-ripoff/)

Ow. The DLC Demon strikes again.

[D.D.D.]

So does that mean it's not even available for those in NA or EU or it's available without having to purchase a "key" for the levels?
I wonder if the Wii version will suffer the same fate...

[T-Rex Commando]

For a second I thought the title read "Beautiful Katamari is a ripoff", which also would've been quite accurate. I apologize for sounding so harsh, but when you see this game being released at the same price as the Orange Box or Halo 3, it just doesn't measure up (value-wise). This unfortunate news about the DLC makes the situation even more ridiculous.

[lockwoodx]

Sega used this flavor of bullshit with Phantasy Star Universe. Only like 20% of the dvd installed and was available at the launch of that steaming turd.

[Teh Super King]

So does that mean it's not even available for those in NA or EU or it's available without having to purchase a "key" for the levels?

On Destructoid it says
Ol' Major Nelson dropped a notice today on his marketplace round-up which included some of the Beautiful Katamari DLC dropping in Asia, all of which is more than likely to hit our shores in the near future.

So looks like just Asia for now.

From what they said the game is just 3 hours long... it's a complete rip off that they are charing $10 to get those 4 extra levels. Especially if they are already on the disc.

[Beelzebud]

This trend won't stop unless people stop buying these rip offs.

We've gone from things like TFC and Enemy Territory released for free, to paying 10 bucks for 4 extra levels, that they shipped with a game.

[Heretic Machine]

Viva Pinata also used this crap on it's shitty DLC, which were nothing more than costume pieces of your pinatas.

[mkelehan]

As I've said plenty of times before, I'd rather have a $40 game with $10 of expansions than a $50 game with it all on there. The fact that people get super-pissed over it being on the disc rather than taking up your hard drive space blows my mind.

[Trickyicky]

For a second I thought the title read "Beautiful Katamari is a ripoff", which also would've been quite accurate. I apologize for sounding so harsh, but when you see this game being released at the same price as the Orange Box or Halo 3, it just doesn't measure up (value-wise). This unfortunate news about the DLC makes the situation even more ridiculous.

It's only $40 at most places here, and I'm in Canada.

[Psykoboy2]

Yeah, it's a $40 game, and will only go down from here on out.

[Chainblast]

Glad my only involvement in this story is to comment. Heh.

[Rafer]

Note to developers: If you're unlocking DLC on a disc, make sure the download is at least several megabytes so consumers don't feel ripped off.

[Isamura]

You pay a price because you want to. You're not paying for efficiency. You're paying because it's a capitalistic world with a bunch of people trying to make a dollar. On the outside, it does seem like bullshit that a company would resort for underhanded tactics, such as storing the infomation on the DVD, and give the illusion that the extra levels were too large to be stored on it. Bottom line: leisure comes at a price, and if people are willing to spend money on something, then that's why someone is selling it.

Personally, I tried out the demo earlier tonight and can't believe anyone would want to spend any time (or money) on this game. But there are things I would spend my money on regardless of how much it costs to produce, so that's not the point. For instance, if a Bungie created an extra campaign chapter with Halo 3 that was already on the disc, but needed to be unlocked - I'd probably pony up the cash to unlock it.

[Cubfan]

So what? Eventually developers will keep the content off the CD, even though it's completed prior to the game's release, and let you download it in it's entirety. Is that a better scenario?

[Johan]

The only saving grace I can see in this is that your money is yours to do with as you see fit. So please, don't buy it if you don't want to! I know I won't!

And if you buy any fish for Tetris, you need a smack.

Oh, yeah; it's your money. Woopsie! ;)

[Mashidar]

Well my wife likes the series so buying it was not really that hard to grasp for me. Paid 40 bucks and it keeps her happy and enjoying the 360. Now as for the DLC, it's not really going to be up to me if it's bought or not. If my wife decides she wants it, then she will pick it up herself even if I think the game is so-so and the price is abit high for stuff on the disc already.

PSU really irked me on release because they released patchs every few months that would unlock stuff that was already in the offline single player mode. It was annoying and I quit that game because of that.

[DigitalFirefly]

So if they didn't put the DLC on the disk and released it as a full download would you still be complaining? Who cares where it comes from. Ever think having the DLC on the disk is saving bandwidth and lowering the cost?

[IrishWhiskey]

Microsoft really needs to set up standards preventing this kind of thing. Yeah, there would be plenty of ways to still rip consumers off, but this just really reflects badly on their whole system.

[Zanzibar]

Guess: The DLC was designed a LONG time before ship date, and the level geometry and models were already finished. They only needed to adjust some placement data - object placement within the world - to tune the levels. The placement data is RIDICULOUSLY small, thus downloading the level data is really small.

It's similar to Halo 3's Forge. The geometry and objects are a finite sum, but your own configuration of that is up to you. Those personal configurations are really small file sizes. The only difference here is that the level geometry is included on the disc, but the placements aren't finalized/tuned/tested.

I don't see the big deal, really. Hell, those models are so low-res it wouldn't surprise me if 384kb actually contains several models.

[JimmyDanger]

Slightly off topic -

Does anyone have any idea of the PAL release date for this title?

Or better yet - does anyone know if the US/JPN or ASIAN versions of this game are region free? Play-Asia seems unsure...

I want this game now - it's fun, cheap - and mixes great with alcohol! A lot like the women I seem to attract.

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-19-49-en-15-katamari.html

[mister_slim]

Looks like the JPN release is region locked.

[Chaos Machine]

Microsoft really needs to set up standards preventing this kind of thing. Yeah, there would be plenty of ways to still rip consumers off, but this just really reflects badly on their whole system.

Microsoft prolly encourages this kinda shit, as they get a piece of the action anyway and it just saves them bandwidth from having to upload the whole file to the user.

[fozy]

I hate it when companies do this! I had a feeling that was going to be the deal when I read there was going to be downloadable content. Probably the deal-breaker for me purchasing this game.

[bean19]

Downloadable additional content that enhances a complete and great game = teh win.

Downloadable content that is simply unlocked on the disc and was already planned = bullshit.

This story has seriously stopped me from buying Beautiful Katamari. I was going to get it after making sure it was fun through Gamefly (and at a reduced rate).

[TrackZero]

Ugh, this is the same shit that happened with that DDR title. Japanese developers need to understand, this shit won't fly here.

"I'm sorry, I thought I was in America." - Stan's Dad.

[Spigot]

Personally, I tried out the demo earlier tonight and can't believe anyone would want to spend any time (or money) on this game.You die.

You die in a fire.

Heretic.

That said, your other points about the DLC itself are spot on.

I don't have a problem with content that isn't already on the disc itself and even Zanzibar's placement arguement makes a bit of sense... HOWEVER... don't charge us 200 points for EACH level. 200 points for all 4? Maybe. But not each. What galls me is that from the description on the Achievements page, you need to download all of the maps and pull off some stuff to get a couple of the achievements. It's not necessary, sure, but seeing how I do enjoy the game and could see myself probably working to get most of the other achievements, it's going to bug me to see that there are a couple that I can't get unless I decide to buckle down and shell out some points for the extra levels.

As for the complaint about the game only clocking in around 3-4 hours, I put a counterpoint to this in the other Katamari thread.

The Katamari games rarely clock in at much more than about 5 hours for an initial playthrough. They're all about going back through the levels over and over again to either a) HAVE FUN or b) try to make the largest katamari or c) find all of the cousins/presents/objects if you're a completist.

I'd grump more about the fact that this game doesn't have the wacky cutscenes like the first two PS2 games did (or much of a story, period) than the fact that it is too short, because it's only short if you plan one run-through of the game and no more. Katamari is all about the replayability.

I find the length complaint about as fallacious as the complaints about the analogue sticks on the 360 controller making the game harder to play, which is only true if you're a complete moron.

[kaddar]

As I've said plenty of times before, I'd rather have a $40 game with $10 of expansions than a $50 game with it all on there. The fact that people get super-pissed over it being on the disc rather than taking up your hard drive space blows my mind.


But it's not a $40 dollar game. It was originally $20 dollars on the ps2, this game is almost entirely the same game, but shorter, for $40 dollars, without the downloadable content.

The problem is that It's a $40 dollar game with $10 dollar expansions as opposed to a $20 dollar game with $5 dollar expansions.

[Evil Avatar]

Viva Pinata also used this crap on it's shitty DLC, which were nothing more than costume pieces of your pinatas.

As did Dead Rising and Call of Duty 2.

I agree -- it is a scumbag thing to do and only the worst and most sleazy of developers pull this shit.

[Skampy]

It's simply a bad business practice. You either choose to buy the content or you choose not too. I rarely buy stuff on XBL and its never DLC. If your into the game and you want more content just buy it. It may not be the magical 300 mb download but just suck it up. We have already evolved to the point where developers know we will pay 60$ a game. What's going to happen next gen? $40 games again? Right.... We are going to be lucky if there isn't another huge price jump. It would not surprise me to see 70$ games next gen.

[Varsity]

What's included in the pack? If it's just new areas, I can see them being 384KB if they re-used existing content. It's not like there's tens of MB of lighting data and cubemaps to pack into it.

[Deadend]

I just started playing Beautiful Katamari, and I realized why the original designer quit Namco, the company did not get the point of KD, which was a small team can create a fun new idea by working within limitations instead of churning out sequels that completely lack innovation.

I am glad I skipped We <3 Katamari as this is the same damn game I had on my PS2 just with better graphics, and now the insanity seems forced and vapid.

So the fact that they are doing unlock key DLC for $5 a level... not very surprising. The game is a giant cash-in and lame franchise now.

But this also seems like a good idea to chime in about Rock Band's DLC.

They are having an entire album of DLC ready on launch day. Planned out, and announced that way... for months now, publicly. Is that really any worse? When a game has things explicitly planned out as extra things to charge you for on day 1?

As I thought the whole point of DLC was to add things in LATER and not things that were planned and created from the start but released separately to make more money.

At least it's not as bad as EA charging money for cheats.

[Heretic Machine]

I just started playing Beautiful Katamari, and I realized why the original designer quit Namco, the company did not get the point of KD, which was a small team can create a fun new idea by working within limitations instead of churning out sequels that completely lack innovation.

I am glad I skipped We <3 Katamari as this is the same damn game I had on my PS2 just with better graphics, and now the insanity seems forced and vapid.

So the fact that they are doing unlock key DLC for $5 a level... not very surprising. The game is a giant cash-in and lame franchise now.

But this also seems like a good idea to chime in about Rock Band's DLC.

They are having an entire album of DLC ready on launch day. Planned out, and announced that way... for months now, publicly. Is that really any worse? When a game has things explicitly planned out as extra things to charge you for on day 1?

As I thought the whole point of DLC was to add things in LATER and not things that were planned and created from the start but released separately to make more money.

At least it's not as bad as EA charging money for cheats.

I consider Rock Band to be different, and here is why: They have made a scheduled plan for DLC. They say that they will release a new album every week, and this is most certainly stuff that we wouldn't be getting on the disc if not for DLC, as the GH franchise (and lets face it, that is what we're looking at) has never included full albums. I mean, if Namco had said, "We're going to release a new level for DLC every week for the next six months" that would be different, as long as they were legitimetly working on new content. In this case, they can't even pretend to be working on anything, the content is on the disk, it's done.

Anyhow, I've always had a low opinion of Namco, this just goes along with what I expect from the company.

[Spigot]

I just started playing Beautiful Katamari, and I realized why the original designer quit Namco, the company did not get the point of KD, which was a small team can create a fun new idea by working within limitations instead of churning out sequels that completely lack innovation.

I am glad I skipped We <3 Katamari as this is the same damn game I had on my PS2 just with better graphics, and now the insanity seems forced and vapid.It's still better than the Katamari Holiday pack that they were going to do before they were convinced to do We Love Katamari.

And you're selling yourself short by not playing We Love Katamari. Of the three console-based Katamari games, it probably has the most variety of levels and gameplay modes (well, as much variety as you can get in a game that boils down to rolling a ball that sticks to stuff so you can make a bigger ball to roll up bigger stuff).

[mkelehan]

But it's not a $40 dollar game. It was originally $20 dollars on the ps2, this game is almost entirely the same game, but shorter, for $40 dollars, without the downloadable content.

The problem is that It's a $40 dollar game with $10 dollar expansions as opposed to a $20 dollar game with $5 dollar expansions.

Which is your opinion. You believe it is not worth it, and so you will not buy it. I believe it is worth it, and I will buy it. That's how capitalism works. If a movie I think is worth $10 costs $20 at Best Buy, I don't grab a handbell and yell "Ripoff! Ripoff!" in the Media section; I just don't buy it and move along.

[jacktion]

You can't really "talk" economics into changing. If people don't see this as a good value then they won't buy it and later games will be cheaper. I think that when we compare it to other recent Xbox releases, I don't see Katamari selling very many copies.

[Soylent Bob]

There's absolutely no reason why a complete level configuration could not fit into 384k. In fact, that sounds a bit on the heavy side... All the assets (ie, artwork) and game logic are almost certainly reused from the existing levels. You are not buying new backgrounds, object models, music, etc. These are the things that take up the majority of the storage. All the level configuration needs to contain is the arrangement of objects within the level.

To take a simplistic approach (just to get a rough idea) let's assume that that is all the configuration file contains. Specifying which object to place could easily fit in 4 bytes if the models are enumerated in some sort of asset manifest, but let's be extra conservative and say that the developers were lazy, and so the object is specified by a 64-byte file name. The position and orientation of each object, with no compression of any kind, will require 28 bytes (ie, seven 4-byte floating point values; three for a position vector, and four for an orientation specified as a quaternion). That's 92 bytes per object total. Which means that a 384k (=393216 bytes) configuration file can hold data for 4274 objects. Using an asset manifest, this blows out to over 35000 objects! How many objects would you say are in a level in Beautiful Katamari?

As for DLC that contains nothing but "decorative" items (eg, clothing and accessories for your game characters, such as Viva Pinata and Dead Rising)... What's wrong with that? The whole point is that it is optional content; if you don't consider it worthwhile, then you are not obliged to purchase it. Why would you want to take that away from the people who do?

[Darkmatter]

As for DLC that contains nothing but "decorative" items (eg, clothing and accessories for your game characters, such as Viva Pinata and Dead Rising)... What's wrong with that? The whole point is that it is optional content; if you don't consider it worthwhile, then you are not obliged to purchase it. Why would you want to take that away from the people who do?

I think the point is that before DLC things like this used to be given to customers for free as a "thank-you" for supporting their game. Sure, there was never any obligation to give stuff like this away for free, but it was a nice gesture.
I don't think many people expect large content for free very often but small simple stuff like a different T-Shirt on your character isn't exactly a lot of work to do and shouldn't (my opinion) be used by a company to rake in the cash from people who have already shelled out $50-60 for their game.

[Tyler Durden84]

if this is true, which more than likely, it is, fuck that shit. that pisses me off to no end. makes me mad....like Rambo: First Blood mad.

[Beelzebud]

So if they didn't put the DLC on the disk and released it as a full download would you still be complaining? Who cares where it comes from. Ever think having the DLC on the disk is saving bandwidth and lowering the cost?

Here's another thing that would lower the cost even more. Everything on the disc is unlocked when you install the game!

Imagine that...

[Rommel]

The reason people do not like this is simple, they already have the content in their hands. They bought the media the game is held on; the buyer should have access to everything on that media. This is like buying a house and finding a few extra rooms walled over - and you cannot get it until you go back to the real estate agency and buy a key to open the rooms in your own home.

[dvlpr]

Ugh, this is the same shit that happened with that DDR title. Japanese developers need to understand, this shit won't fly here.

Hehe. It's not just Japanese developers.
I know a bunch of upcoming US made titles (big ones too) which will have the DLC the exact same way. Of course the DLC is planned in advance. It is already on the game disk - you just pay to unlock it.
Nothing wrong with this in my opinion.

The higher the money flow, the higher our salaries and bonuses are ... :)

[dvlpr]

The reason people do not like this is simple, they already have the content in their hands. They bought the media the game is held on; the buyer should have access to everything on that media. This is like buying a house and finding a few extra rooms walled over - and you cannot get it until you go back to the real estate agency and buy a key to open the rooms in your own home.

It is not true. There is a big difference between buying a house and buying software. We can configure the software to work in different ways depending on what service you paid for. Following your logic is like saying since you have a dish or a cable box at home, because the signal for all programs reaches your receiver already you should be watching all the premium channels without paying ...

If you don't want to pay to unlock the extra content - just don't do it. Some people are ok with it and will pay to have access to it.

[Karmakin]

Which is your opinion. You believe it is not worth it, and so you will not buy it. I believe it is worth it, and I will buy it. That's how capitalism works. If a movie I think is worth $10 costs $20 at Best Buy, I don't grab a handbell and yell "Ripoff! Ripoff!" in the Media section; I just don't buy it and move along.

It's not about capitalism, it's about the free market. And free markets are made better, not worse, by having as much information as possible for consumers.

In this case, people grabbing handbells and letting others know of their displeasure is PERFECTLY in line with a free market economy. Frankly , that we don't see this happen more is a huge problem in my opinion.

[Darinisawesome]

Is there any chance that these levels are unlocked as you play the game?

I'm all for companies letting people buy their way to the endgame. It's a lot better than companies putting levels on the disc and people having to pay to unlock them. That's just not fair. But I guess companies can do whatever they want with their product. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

[TrackZero]

Hehe. It's not just Japanese developers.
I know a bunch of upcoming US made titles (big ones too) which will have the DLC the exact same way. Of course the DLC is planned in advance. It is already on the game disk - you just pay to unlock it.
Nothing wrong with this in my opinion.

The higher the money flow, the higher our salaries and bonuses are ... :)

I'm not aware of any American ones off the top of my head, care to name some?

[mkelehan]

So is everybody here against demos of XBLA games? Because, those demos contain the entire games; you just download a small key to unlock them.

[mikeohara]

So is everybody here against demos of XBLA games? Because, those demos contain the entire games; you just download a small key to unlock them.

NO!

It's not the issue of Live Arcade Games to begin with, it's the fact that Namco Bandai shipped this game with these levels ON the disc, and you're having to pay for them. Heaven help them if they do something stupid like this with Soul Calibur IV, as there will be riots in the streets.

[Soylent Bob]

I'd still like to know where the evidence is that proves that the content is, in fact, already on the game disc... I would be very, very surprised if this is true.

Developers want to get their game finished, into certification, and on the shelf as soon as possible so you can purchase it. The process of certification, production and distribution takes time, usually at least a month. Why would they delay this process in order to create additional content and put it on the disc, when they could develop it after releasing the game to certification and let you download it later?

There is no benefit to the developer what so ever in putting this content on the disc. It takes just as long to create the extra content after release as it does to create it before, so it saves them nothing. It simply makes no sense...

I think everyone here is just too eager to cry foul and assume that they are being screwed.

[dvlpr]

Huh?! They made the levels in advance - so, what's the difference if the levels are already on the disk vs to have to download the stuf later? It is THE SAME level data - regardless of is it already on the disk or not. This way they even save you some bandwidth.

The data being ON the disc or not - it makes no difference


NO!

It's not the issue of Live Arcade Games to begin with, it's the fact that Namco Bandai shipped this game with these levels ON the disc, and you're having to pay for them. Heaven help them if they do something stupid like this with Soul Calibur IV, as there will be riots in the streets.

[Kelegacy]

The only saving grace I can see in this is that your money is yours to do with as you see fit. So please, don't buy it if you don't want to! I know I won't!

And if you buy any fish for Tetris, you need a smack.

Oh, yeah; it's your money. Woopsie! ;)

A fool and his money are quickly parted. The Xbox Live Marketplace is like a grand bastion for fools.

[dvlpr]

There is no benefit to the developer what so ever in putting this content on the disc. It takes just as long to create the extra content after release as it does to create it before, so it saves them nothing. It simply makes no sense...

Of course it makes sense. The projects I've worked on - DLC and the extra profit were planned/developed in advance. There is a benefit for the developers - while the team has moved to the next project, there is still money flow from the previous title and it makes everyone in-house happy.

[danhoo]

I just started playing Beautiful Katamari, and I realized why the original designer quit Namco, the company did not get the point of KD, which was a small team can create a fun new idea by working within limitations instead of churning out sequels that completely lack innovation.

It's threads like this that remind me how much Namco is milking this franchise, and that honestly makes me a bit sad.

[dvlpr]

I'm not aware of any American ones off the top of my head, care to name some?

When particular names gets mentioned me or friends (at companies who work on such projects) might get into trouble. The dev companies and publishers don't like seeing such details named in public.

[Beelzebud]

Of course it makes sense. The projects I've worked on - all that DLC and the extra profit was planned in advance. The DLC was developed in advance. There is a benefit for the developers - while the team has moved onto developing the next project, there is still money flow from the previous title and it makes everyone in-house happy.

Well see there you go. Now I understand where your bias comes from.

Mine comes from the point of a consumer. You're out to make money on this, and I'm out to try to save mine.

Here is a much better analogy than the house analogy.

Let's say they start charging to unlock DVD movie extras? Do you think it would be fine to charge money for the deleted scenes, or should people be able to just watch them, because they're on the disc to begin with?

I don't know about you but I like Director's Commentaries, and extras. I'd be pissed off if they started charging for every little thing like that. The difference is that you guys think that because the technology enables to do that kind of crap, you should do it.

You'll get much more consumer loyalty by only charging once for a game, and then throwing in the bonus levels as a "thank you". There is a reason companies like Epic, iD, and Valve are above the rest, and it has nothing to do with how much they tried to maximize their profits. They built loyal fanbases, and the money rolled in.

[Spigot]

It's threads like this that remind me how much Namco is milking this franchise, and that honestly makes me a bit sad.Again, for people who own the PS2 versions (both of which were quite good), there isn't a compelling a reason to get Beautiful Katamari unless you're just an insane Katamari fan like myself. That said, I have at least one friend who sat out the last generation of consoles and has a 360 and is running out to buy Beautiful Katamari because he never got a chance to own it until now and the 360 is the only system he has. For people like him, it's a great deal.

And it's not like it's a bad game. Yeesh. You'd think that the game was the Daikatana of ball rolling games or something.

[dvlpr]

Btw, what people forget or sometimes don't know is that while the extra game raw data might already be on the disc, you still need to download the executable and scripts which make that data into an interactive experience. Sometimes such stuff is polished, tested and fine tuned after the game was done and the size of the executable and scripts is much smaller than raw art/sound data. So, you can't just figure out by the size of the downloaded file when was the DLC completed - before or after shipping the title. Sometimes it is finished before, sometimes after, but you just can't recognize this by seeing whether a downloaded file is 1MB or 100MB.

About the not done for free thing: The more powerful the consoles are, the the more expensive the projects get too. Let's say a good game now takes 20-30 million bucks to make vs half (or even much less than half) that a couple of years ago? So, what should the publisher/developer do? Since the population didn't double in two years, should they raise the retail price of a game to $120?
Will you be happy if the developers tomorrow tell you - "Sony stuffed us with that piece of garbage to develop for PS3 and now you'll pay $120 retail gaimes"?

You'll start seeing titles going multiplatform, paid DLC, and lots of in-game advertising in the future a lot.

Here is a much better analogy than the house analogy.

Let's say they start charging to unlock DVD movie extras? Do you think it would be fine to charge money for the deleted scenes, or should people be able to just watch them, because they're on the disc to begin with?

I don't know about you but I like Director's Commentaries, and extras. I'd be pissed off if they started charging for every little thing like that. The difference is that you guys think that because the technology enables to do that kind of crap, you should do it.

[Spigot]

Well see there you go. Now I understand where your bias comes from.

Mine comes from the point of a consumer. You're out to make money on this, and I'm out to try to save mine.

Here is a much better analogy than the house analogy.

Let's say they start charging to unlock DVD movie extras? Do you think it would be fine to charge money for the deleted scenes, or should people be able to just watch them, because they're on the disc to begin with?

I don't know about you but I like Director's Commentaries, and extras. I'd be pissed off if they started charging for every little thing like that. The difference is that you guys think that because the technology enables to do that kind of crap, you should do it.
They do that already. It's called putting out a bare-bones DVD and then putting a Special Edition out 2-3 months later. Many, MANY people get suckered into buying the same DVD 2-3 times in order to get those extra features yet we don't have a hue and cry and people marching in the streets.

For people who don't care about getting the extra features, they only need to buy the disc once. People who want the extra stuff either have to buy the DVD more than once or be patient and pay a bit of a premium when it comes out.

[mkelehan]

NO!

It's not the issue of Live Arcade Games to begin with, it's the fact that Namco Bandai shipped this game with these levels ON the disc, and you're having to pay for them. Heaven help them if they do something stupid like this with Soul Calibur IV, as there will be riots in the streets.

Right, and when you download an XBLA demo, the whole game is ON your hard drive. I'm drawing a parallel, you see.

[Dirty Harry]

As did Dead Rising and Call of Duty 2.

I agree -- it is a scumbag thing to do and only the worst and most sleazy of developers pull this shit.

aka the majority of all devs?


dvlpr
Thanks for ruining my hobby ass, another reason why i am finding myself touching consoles less and less is this bullshit. I can understand additional content being downloaded but to say its acceptable to release a "key" (using a generic term here) to unlock pre-made content is bullshit and you should know this. The reality is you dont care, you are doing this for the money and not to be a super awesome game dev, how does it feel to ruin a past time hobby you monopoly loving mother.

[Spigot]

Right, and when you download an XBLA demo, the whole game is ON your hard drive. I'm drawing a parallel, you see.Except you didn't pay to download the demo. The tech is essentially the same but what irks people is that they just paid a premium for a next-gen game anyway and what would have normally just been in there as an extra on the disc or a finished level is now being locked away until you pay even more to unlock it.

Your parallel is more perpendicular than anything.

[danhoo]

Again, for people who own the PS2 versions (both of which were quite good), there isn't a compelling a reason to get Beautiful Katamari unless you're just an insane Katamari fan like myself. That said, I have at least one friend who sat out the last generation of consoles and has a 360 and is running out to buy Beautiful Katamari because he never got a chance to own it until now and the 360 is the only system he has. For people like him, it's a great deal.

And it's not like it's a bad game. Yeesh. You'd think that the game was the Daikatana of ball rolling games or something.

Oh, I hear ya. And I'm glad those who didn't get the opportunity to play Katamari the first time around now do. I'm just reminded that the original "spirit" of the game seems to be somewhat sullied. For example: you mentioned that the new Katamari doesn't have the usual wacky cutscenes. As bizarre as they were, it seems almost against the spirit of the Katamari games to _not_ include some serious "WTF" moments with the King, or that wacky family from the first game, etc.

It makes me wonder what the next Katamari game will be like, because you know there's going to be one. It won't be, of course, the Daikatana of ball rolling games, thank goodness. Unless John Romero's Katamari is about to make me it's bitch.

[Spigot]

Oh, I hear ya. And I'm glad those who didn't get the opportunity to play Katamari the first time around now do. I'm just reminded that the original "spirit" of the game seems to be somewhat sullied. For example: you mentioned that the new Katamari doesn't have the usual wacky cutscenes. As bizarre as they were, it seems almost against the spirit of the Katamari games to _not_ include some serious "WTF" moments with the King, or that wacky family from the first game, etc.

It makes me wonder what the next Katamari game will be like, because you know there's going to be one. It won't be, of course, the Daikatana of ball rolling games, thank goodness. Unless John Romero's Katamari is about to make me it's bitch.The King is still insane and the core mechanics are there. He plays billiards with you if you lose a level this time around. He still berates you when you do well and is flabbergasted when you actually do something right.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the spirit is sullied. It's muted somewhat, but once you get past the lack of story the gameplay is still as solid as ever.

I agree with you about the NEXT Katamari game though. They had better pull something impressive out of their hat, either graphically or gameplay-wise. I still like the idea people were kicking around about having different textures of stuff to pick up. Ie. if you were picking up soft things like clouds, they'd actually be like big cotton balls and the katamari would roll differently because of the texture.

I don't expect Gears Of Katamari or anything as I am quite happy with the visual style of the Katamari games but they need to gussy up the engine a bit, one way or another.

[Soylent Bob]

The projects I've worked on - DLC and the extra profit were planned/developed in advance.

I didn't suggest for a second that the DLC wasn't planned in advance. ;)

And if that's what you say has happened with your projects, then obviously I cannot dispute that. Ok, so I'll accept that it happens, at the very least in your company.

But I still don't get why? Why develop it before releasing the game to certification? It's just holding up your income stream, because the game is not yet on the shelf. And even supposing it was both planned and developed in advance, why put it on the disc for initial release? You still have to put the title update that enables it through certification seperately anyway...

[dvlpr]

Right at the end of the project, the busiest part of the team is the software engineers - cranking 100% on fixing all sorts of software bugs from minor glitches to major things affecting gameplay. At that point artists and designers are pretty much not doing anything - why not make them create something which will be used/unlocked later which can be just be added to the disk but doesn't have to be entirely playtested and certified.
In this case when the game ships there is lots of extra content on the disk which can be used by a new executable or script updates later.

A bunch of other variants too but I am too lazy to type now ... :)


I didn't suggest for a second that the DLC wasn't planned in advance. ;)

And if that's what you say has happened with your projects, then obviously I cannot dispute that. Ok, so I'll accept that it happens, at the very least in your company.

But I still don't get why? Why develop it before releasing the game to certification? It's just holding up your income stream, because the game is not yet on the shelf. And even supposing it was both planned and developed in advance, why put it on the disc for initial release? You still have to put the title update that enables it through certification seperately anyway...

[ElectricMonk]

there's no way that this is going to go away. Unless downloadable content is purely content and has no code changes you have to plan for downloadable content as you make the game anyway, and often it's just easier to put the downloadable functionality into the game. If you want high quality dlc then you'll need code changes.

You're not buying a game anyway you're buying a license to play the game, so if you don't think the game on the disc is worth the money then don't buy it.

With shady things going on like gamestop's selling of used games it's no big surprise that this is a way around that. If game discs evolved to be $10 and only had the first episode unlocked and then you paid to unlock subsequent episodes it would give more money to the developers and be a way around used game sales.

It would probably end up cheaper for gamers anyway considering how I only finish about 20% of the games I buy.

[Shodan2020]

I find the length complaint about as fallacious as the complaints about the analogue sticks on the 360 controller making the game harder to play, which is only true if you're a complete moron.

Me too. I've easily spent 6 hours and I haven't even beaten the game yet.

The only difference between a 360's analog sticks and a PS2's analog sticks is the positioning. It's much more comfortable with a 360 controller.

As for the people who don't "get" the attraction of the Katamari games, I bet if I saw your game collection I could pick out a few that I wouldn't "waste" money on either. Just cause you don't like a game doesn't mean it's crap or that people who do like it have bad taste. We just have different tastes, that's all. You don't like it? Don't buy it. Any grief you'd heap on me for purchasing a game I enjoy is coals to fucking Newcastle my friend.

[mkelehan]

The tech is essentially the same but what irks people is that they just paid a premium for a next-gen game anyway and what would have normally just been in there as an extra on the disc or a finished level is now being locked away until you pay even more to unlock it.


And my point is that it wouldn't have normally just "been in there." It wouldn't have existed at all. Extra content, extra dev time. You DID NOT pay for these levels; you paid for the 12 already in there. Nobody's tricking you into thinking that you're going to get more, and then pulling the rug out from under you. The game that's on there is full and complete. They're offering you extra, and not asking to take up any more of your hard drive space.

Oh! I've got an analogy we could try: the honor bar in a hotel room.

[Rommel]

With PPV or dish streams, the content is no in your hands physically. In this case, the player owns the content as he owns the media on which it is housed.

This is a true slope issue in the realm of digital shopping and theft. If someone were to start releasing keys for these, possibly fully finished, levels - would that be a crime? The players and debuggers wouldn't be stealing, they would be fiddling with something they own to a lesser extent than mod developers - they would just be tearing down walls. But I sure as hell bet the game companies would balk.

Selling someone a piece of physical media and then claiming they do not own and must purchase what is on that media is wrong - and I would fully expect more people start looking into breaking through their discs looking for hidden gems. It caused a problem with Rockstar, and I would not want to encourage more users to crawl through my hidden and buried content if I were a developer.

Oh! I've got an analogy we could try: the honor bar in a hotel room.

Do you own the honor bar? This is more like if you had a picnic basket and someone told you that there was some candy hidden in the lining - but you cannot get it unless you go to the store and let them peel away the fabric. Fuck them, its my picnic basket!

[mightbe]

I'll pay for this shit every day of the week.

As long as I gets more katamari.

[Pluvious]

You'll get much more consumer loyalty by only charging once for a game, and then throwing in the bonus levels as a "thank you". There is a reason companies like Epic, iD, and Valve are above the rest, and it has nothing to do with how much they tried to maximize their profits. They built loyal fanbases, and the money rolled in.

HEAR HEAR! Nicely said.

[dvlpr]

So, in this case you own a bunch of extra bytes written on a disk ...
In order to turn those extra bytes stored on a disk from numbers into interactive content, you need the new executable or/and script files which'll you receive after you pay for the DLC. Until then those extra bytes you have will remain just bytes and you can own them as much as you want and peeling away your basket won't help you since the important stuff is not there. What you get when you pay for DLC is not just an unlock code regardless that it is tiny in size.

It is like somebody told you that there is a sweet and nice looking candy in your basket. You start looking for it but what you find is a nice looking candy wrap, but the candy itself is not iside the wrap yet.


P.S. And with the dish streams what do you mean that the content is noth there? Of course it is there - the satellite provides it to everyone and your hardware picks it up - it is there - the stream from the satellite is one way and always there. But to watch it on the screen you need the unlock code which is on the card which you put in your receiver. It is the exact same thing as the games DLC.


With PPV or dish streams, the content is no in your hands physically. In this case, the player owns the content as he owns the media on which it is housed.

This is a true slope issue in the realm of digital shopping and theft. If someone were to start releasing keys for these, possibly fully finished, levels - would that be a crime? The players and debuggers wouldn't be stealing, they would be fiddling with something they own to a lesser extent than mod developers - they would just be tearing down walls. But I sure as hell bet the game companies would balk.

Selling someone a piece of physical media and then claiming they do not own and must purchase what is on that media is wrong - and I would fully expect more people start looking into breaking through their discs looking for hidden gems. It caused a problem with Rockstar, and I would not want to encourage more users to crawl through my hidden and buried content if I were a developer.



Do you own the honor bar? This is more like if you had a picnic basket and someone told you that there was some candy hidden in the lining - but you cannot get it unless you go to the store and let them peel away the fabric. Fuck them, its my picnic basket!