Rare To Microsoft: "What about us?"

[Psykoboy2]

If you missed out last year on playing Viva Pinata, well, you'd be in luck, actually. It's a damn good game and it's now on the cheap side of things as far as 360 games go. However, Rare wanted you to play it back when it was released and now has questions as to why Microsoft put it on the back burner as far as marketing goes.

From GamesIndustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=29580): Software engineer James Thomas feels that the new family-friendly IP lost out to Epic's Gears of War, which enjoyed a much bigger marketing budget from Microsoft, helping it top the charts all over the world.

"Yet, so much of the money went towards publishing Gears of War, which is going to sell millions anyway."

"It was a bit like, 'what about the other franchise?' I think we got left in the wake somewhat. Hopefully the PC version this Christmas, it might get something of a second wind."

I got the game not too long after the release, and really, it's a great game (and the chicks dig it too, apparently). Plus, they had one of the best commercials (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VkLUmU1Ors) I'd ever seen from Microsoft.

[CaptStu]

I really liked Viva. It was a good game. I would have to agree with Rare in this instance.

[Goronmon]

Yeah, they really could have brought a very different demographic into the 360 if they had pushed this more. My sister loves this game.

[Gorvi]

I think Mistwalker should be feeling the same way with the nonexistance of the Blue Dragon advertising then the Halo 3 glut. BD was almost completely ignored other than a few print ads, at least from what I saw.

[Itchyeyes]

Personally, I think Viva Pinata ranks almost as high as Psychonauts on the list of under-appreciated games. I think it just occupies a strange space for a game in terms of demographics. The look and feel of it is targeted towards children, but the gameplay is much too sophisticated for most children and the 360's $400 price tag at the time it launched wasn't exactly a family friendly price point.

One thing I'm curious about is why hasn't Microsoft released any DLC for this game? If there's one game out there that's just begging for new content it's Viva Pinata.

[The Continental]

I saw the Viva Pinata commercial non-stop whereas I rarely if ever saw the fabled Gears ad outside of a movie theater or the week of launch. I don't think it has anything to do with ad budget but rather the demographic of 360 owners. This point has been beaten into the ground already but at this point the primary owners of a 360 are still the Halo crowd, not exactly the target audience for something with a Saturday morning cartoon tie in.

[YoungAlCapone]

I loved the little bit I played, and keep meaning to return to it one of these days and give it another try. I agree with The Continental though, the 360 demographic is not exactly the right one to market a game about gardening to.

[Wedge]

I think Viva was probably the second most marketed game last year, after Gears. I certanly would not bitch about it. It just makes Rare look ugly in the eyes of, well, every other developer other than Epic. It is a bit like when a good looking girl whines about being not as pretty as the prettiest girl to her ugly friends.

[menage]

Viva kicked Gears ass with a stick:P

[tehhu1k]

This is a problem with all large publishers; Ubisoft, Vivendi Universal/Sierra, MS, etc
A select few games get millions in marketing, others don't. And the sales generally reflect the marketing backing.

I don't know if you can call it a problem though, it's just the way they make the most money it would seem. I think the Viva guys are just a little annoyed that they weren't chosen by the big boys.

and btw, GoW 4tw!

[Deunnero]

It's now a sub 20$ game at Toys R Us ... it's gonna be in someone's stocking at xmas, that's for sure.

[NationalKato]

The problem I had with Viva Pinata is the amount of information thrown at you in the beginning. They never really give you a chance to just explore the previous tools they introduce before throwing more at you.

[CooterTKE]

i played it a little on a friends 360 and my wife loved it. she really wants it for the PS3.

[MaiXu]

... the primary owners of a 360 are still the Halo crowd, not exactly the target audience for something with a Saturday morning cartoon tie in.

Unless they made a Halo cartoon.

[Telefrog]

I think part of the problem is that the game itself doesn't know what it wants to be. The concept is all fucked up. It's got cute pinata animals, candy, kid-friendly art direction, and restricted Live integration, coupled with a saturday morning cartoon which points to it being meant for 'family' entertainment. The game itself, however, is an hardcore ecosystem management sim. There's really nothing 'kiddie" about the gameplay.

It's a real hit with the ladies, from what I've been gathering (my wife loves it), but kids need a LOT of handholding to get through it. It's way too hard for most children to play without constant help from an adult.

[Reanimated]

I saw plenty of commercials for it, and I mean they have a FUCKING SHOW on saturday morning. What the hell else do they want?

The problem with putting a ton of marketing dollars behind that game is that it's a mass market game that came out at a time when 360 wasn't anywhere near a mass market price. Hell, it's STILL not at a mass market price. If Rare wants to bitch about something, it should be that MS has basically done jack shit to bring down the price of the console. Asking parents to shell out ~500 bucks so their kids can play Viva Pinata is a non-starter. 200 - 250? Maybe you're in the conversation at that point.

The bottom line is that it's been 3 years. The console should be a hell of a lot cheaper than it is. The lower price point is the only thing that's going to help these mass market games thrive. You can advertise all you want, but you're not going to convince anyone to drop 4-500 bones for Viva Pinata. Sorry.

[bapenguin]

Umm...what? Not marketed. Hell you have a Saturday morning cartoon in which the game was advertised on non stop.

Yes, it wasn't mass marketed. Because that wasn't the target audience.

[Psykoboy2]

Viva kicked Gears ass with a stick:P

Don't you mean a shovel? Or a water bucket, maybe?

[Hellstorm]

Nintendo sells Rare to MS for three hundred million: The greatest scam Nintendo has ever pulled.

[Switcher]

Microsoft buying Rare is a move both companies I think regret at this point.

[violentp]

I would have like to see a Goldeneye(N64) remake released at the time of Gears. Just out of curiosity.

[VTMarik]

The Commercial really did make me want to play it.

"If you let me go, I'll grant all your wishes..."
"HaHA! That was acting, children!"

[DubiousQuality]

I think Mistwalker should be feeling the same way with the nonexistance of the Blue Dragon advertising then the Halo 3 glut. BD was almost completely ignored other than a few print ads, at least from what I saw.

Maybe if BD didn't suck to begin with they would have tossed more marketing towards it. Didn't it get pretty low reviews across the board?

I do think Rare is crying foul over this one though, if I remember correctly Viva did get a decent push, even with its own animated series. If thats not considered marketing I don't know what is.

[NeoSuplex]

No sale. Viva got a freaking cartoon tie in. Are you going to tell me that the cartoon was more than just marketing for the game?
Just take it easy with the collect-a-thon game design in Banjo, and everything will be peachy.

[Rafer]

The problem I had with Viva Pinata is the amount of information thrown at you in the beginning. They never really give you a chance to just explore the previous tools they introduce before throwing more at you.

At the beginning, it was like every 8 seconds the game would stop and I'd get a text message telling me to do something new, when I still haven't cleaned up the yard yet. Playing the game I think there was some problems in the game design in that it was too complex for young kids.

[Xerxes]

Hell, Rare use to be third on the list of first party dev houses. Lionhead is now at the head of the table, and Fable 2 is going to get the same love it got last time no doubt. Fable was in the top five major games of Xbox history and no doubt MS is looking to make a killing there. Hell, if Halo Wars hits hard on 360, Rare might end up behind Ensemble as far as the console front is concerned.

Rare on the other hand, MS still doesn't know what to do with them it seems. I would agree more marketing "could" have helped. It was a quality game. I thought PDZ and Kameo were as well. Still lacking that old school Rare polish they use to do for Nintendo but still quality. I have yet to play the game but the demo was again, quality and solid.

Without Bungie around to soak up money like a wet sponge, maybe the next Viva or whatever can make a huge splash with better marketing. MS should see that the genre is liked by the gamers, now push it too the masses. Like some have mentioned, girls like it. Push it to girls, parents for their young, and again the gamers that loved it first.

I'm still wanting my Killer Instinct 360!!!!

Also doesn't MSGS only have 5 internal dev houses?

[slothy]

The bottom line is that it's been 3 years. The console should be a hell of a lot cheaper than it is.

Actually it's been almost 2 years. The 360 launched in November of 2005.

[Doctor Setebos]

Nintendo sells Rare to MS for three hundred million: The greatest scam Nintendo has ever pulled.Agreed. N'Gai appears to agree, as well (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/10/15/bizarre-bungie-bioware-flee-microsoft-what-does-it-all-mean.aspx):

That's one way to look at it. For us, the flight of the Killer B's is a clear indication that Microsoft as a whole is still shell shocked not only by the massive losses in the Xbox division, but also more importantly by the poor showing of Rare, which has to rank as not only one of the Microsoft's least successful purchases, but as quite possibly the worst acquisition in the history of gaming.Indeed. :rolleyes:

[Switcher]

All of Rare's mediocre titles under Microsoft's banner can be forgiven, if we finally get what we all want.

Killer Instinct 3.

[Xerxes]

Agreed. N'Gai appears to agree, as well (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/10/15/bizarre-bungie-bioware-flee-microsoft-what-does-it-all-mean.aspx):

Indeed. :rolleyes:

That shit is sort of spot on. I do recall MS saying they wanted to strenghten ties with 3rd party people, but I think screwing your own group to shell out money for publishing is retarded. I think Lionhead, which will prove worth while with fable 2, is a purchase they don't worry about. Rare is like 5 games in and no mega successes yet. MS bought them on name and what they did for Nintendo. I think MS should put them into a hole and let them crawl out with a gem. I mean get them on a sure fire project and give them the time and resources to make people nod their heads at Rare being what people remembering them as. Although I think it's not what it use to be, but they can try. Aspire to the name.

Killer Instinct 360!


Edit: I like this N'Gai Croal. Is that what real game journalism looks like?

[Roc Ingersol]

The target market for the Pinata franchise does not drop $400 on a new console. If it was released for the Wii or PS2 it would've sold like gangbusters. Thank Microsoft's console pricing for fucking that up.

Until the damn thing is in the 200-250 range, you're looking at a serious upper-limit on casual/kid-friendly game sales. Rare's delivered good titles. They're just being paid to pitch games to a market that, for the most part, doesn't care about them.

[Grimmjow]

Plus, they had one of the best commercials (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VkLUmU1Ors) I'd ever seen from Microsoft.[/i]

I love that commercial, one of my all time favorites

[EGO]

Viva has a long-form commercial in the form of a Saturday morning cartoon, so I'm really gonna have to call sour grapes here.

Plus, as good as Viva is, it suffers from classic Rare issues, including being too hardcore the play side even though it looks casual. That's one of the reasons Kameo didn't do that well. People that should play it were put off by the percieved "kiddie-ness", while kids and casual platform players were like "wtf, I was just asked to; boost, transform in mid-air, dodge, move the camera, etc." all in the span of a second?

Don't get me wrong, I love Rare's stuff, but Gears of War and marketing isn't the reason Viva didn't do better.

[Zaro]

I wonder if the DS version of Viva Pinata will sell well.

[Darkmatter]

Damn I saw this used at Blockbuster for $20 but I past over it because I wasn't sure if I would like it due to its kid-ness. Guess I'll have to keep my eyes open for another cheap copy, new or used.

[Xerxes]

Viva has a long-form commercial in the form of a Saturday morning cartoon, so I'm really gonna have to call sour grapes here.

Plus, as good as Viva is, it suffers from classic Rare issues, including being too hardcore the play side even though it looks casual. That's one of the reasons Kameo didn't do that well. People that should play it were put off by the percieved "kiddie-ness", while kids and casual platform players were like "wtf, I was just asked to; boost, transform in mid-air, dodge, move the camera, etc." all in the span of a second?

Don't get me wrong, I love Rare's stuff, but Gears of War and marketing isn't the reason Viva didn't do better.

You are on to something. Kiddie games aren't kiddie. I think they should just move on form them at that. Or make them simpler. Alot of folks think simple is the way. They have a good vehicles for 2 trigger and a few button platforms and stuff.

[karak]

Fucking nonstop commercials and a cartoon are not enough? My god I loved the commercials but I saw it about 1 trillion times. I don't know how much more they could have wanted.

[Rune_74]

Maybe if BD didn't suck to begin with they would have tossed more marketing towards it. Didn't it get pretty low reviews across the board?

I do think Rare is crying foul over this one though, if I remember correctly Viva did get a decent push, even with its own animated series. If thats not considered marketing I don't know what is.

Actually it got high reviews in japan and bad ones here, however its a fun nice looking game I own it and it definately doesn't suck. Play it before you rate it.

[Rafer]

Edit: I like this N'Gai Croal. Is that what real game journalism looks like?

Pretty much. It probably helps that he works for Newsweek and isn't subject to the whims of videogame advertisers.

[Darkmatter]

Pretty much. It probably helps that he works for Newsweek and isn't subject to the whims of videogame advertisers.

WTF are you talking about?!? Idiot... Haven't you heard, advertisers and their money play NO ROLE in game ratings.

The next time a multi-million dollar company tells you something I expect you to listen...

(This small peice of theatre has been brought to you by the letter 69 and the number ROFLCOPTER)

[Xerxes]

Pretty much. It probably helps that he works for Newsweek and isn't subject to the whims of videogame advertisers.

I wonder what a magazine of that would look like.

[Darkmatter]

I wonder what a magazine of that would look like.

Dude, don't torture yourself with things that don't exist...

[Xerxes]

Dude, don't torture yourself with things that don't exist...

I know right. A quality magazine that demonstrates the highest quality of video game journalism that doesn't cater to the industry but the people who enjoy the industry. :rolleyes:

Now I'm trying to imagine how awesome the review system would be. :(
They don't use numbers?! :confused:

[walkstheplanes]

Damn I saw this used at Blockbuster for $20 but I past over it because I wasn't sure if I would like it due to its kid-ness. Guess I'll have to keep my eyes open for another cheap copy, new or used.

You can find it new for 20 dollars if not less... Look around onlines.

[Xerxes]

I think Mistwalker should be feeling the same way with the nonexistance of the Blue Dragon advertising then the Halo 3 glut. BD was almost completely ignored other than a few print ads, at least from what I saw.

Again, it got it's own cartoon.

[Gorvi]

Maybe if BD didn't suck to begin with they would have tossed more marketing towards it. Didn't it get pretty low reviews across the board?
It got avearge scores I believe. I wasn't a big fan of what I played of the demo, but they made a pretty big investment in the game, you'd think their first "big" RPG would have seen more marketing money.
Again, it got it's own cartoon.
It did? Or was that just in Japan?

[BigJonno]

Viva Pinata is awesome although, as has already been pointed out, it's a kiddie-looking game with a cartoon that is way too complex for most kids. It's also wonderfully subversive when you read all the item descriptions. It's probably my favourite Rare game after Goldeneye.

Killer Instinct, by the way, sucked. It had long lists of ridiculously complex "combos" instead of any real gameplay. The characters were cheesy, cliche and lacked any real originality. Even Mortal Kombat played better.

[Psykoboy2]

Blue Dragon seems to follow the "marketing to the right audience" sort of thing. Japan was it's market and it did very well over there. Bringing it stateside was just a "few extra bucks" type of thing.

Lost Odyssey might be a different story.

[Sazime]

For you, a gun and one bullet.

[Xerxes]

Killer Instinct, by the way, sucked. It had long lists of ridiculously complex "combos" instead of any real gameplay. The characters were cheesy, cliche and lacked any real originality. Even Mortal Kombat played better.

Well now I know you're crazy.
http://www.karmataxi.de/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/randallcurtis.png

[Brinstar00]

What about Banjo and Kazooie? That was one of my favorite franchises on the N64. I am really looking forward to that comin out on 360. I also agree about the difficulty level for Viva. It was kiddie looking but it was a difficult and time consuming game especially if you went for all 1000 GS.

[Infinity]

Viva kicked Gears ass with a stick:P

A shovel, you mean?

[mister_slim]

The problem I had with Viva Pinata is the amount of information thrown at you in the beginning. They never really give you a chance to just explore the previous tools they introduce before throwing more at you.

You'd think that with MS's usability labs Rare would notice problems like this. It seems like, based on Rare's recent output, MS is not hands-on enough.

[Shodan2020]

Viva Pinata is one of my favorite 360 games. I love it, but it did get more than a fair shake at marketing... I saw that commercial fairly often... and well the cartoon tv series is a huge advertisement that occurs once every saturday for 30 minutes. :)

[alienchild]

Rare sucks ass now (good guys left, most of them to Free Radical), and Viva Pinata was a fucking piece of shit game.

[Venkman]

Nintendo sells Rare to MS for three hundred million: The greatest scam Nintendo has ever pulled.

Next to convincing the world that the Wii Fit board is cool interactivity.

[Rune_74]

Rare sucks ass now (good guys left, most of them to Free Radical), and Viva Pinata was a fucking piece of shit game.

good to see you added to the conversation, now back to your cave.

[TrackZero]

Killer Instinct, by the way, sucked. It had long lists of ridiculously complex "combos" instead of any real gameplay. The characters were cheesy, cliche and lacked any real originality. Even Mortal Kombat played better.

Hard to contest that, but I know my friends and I used to have mad fun with it for hours at a time for about a year straight. So it had something going for it.

[KingGorilla]

Shouldn't Rare be used to being pegged as the little brother? It is not like their titles, save Goldeneye, really got a lot of attention from Nintendo.

[Zeal]

Rare lost it years ago. Give us a new Killer Instinct, Diddy King Racing, or just leave.

[Xerxes]

Hell, make a brand new Conkers. Not a remake.

[cp#]

Rare balled out during the N64 era.. they were stagnant during the GameCube era though. I think Rare needs Nintendo to do big things. Conkers BFD, Diddy Kong Racing, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, Jet Force Gemini, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Blast Corps, and Donkey Kong 64. I love the N64

[Xerxes]

Didn't Rare make a showing with good Starfox games in the end of it's Gamecube days.

[Xerxes]

Reading more of the N'Gai article. If I was Bill Gates, I'd call Shane Kim into my office and answer for these sins against Microsoft Game Studios. I'd probably fire him anyways too. He sold off, dissolved and lost all kinds of developers. O_o

Then they only got like 3 internal dev houses worth a damn. Although Rare is being treated like a coin in the air by everyone.

[Sazime]

Ok, as far as marketing goes, everyone seems to concentrate on a Saturday morning cartoon show. Come on, who has disposable income, 6-12 year olds or 18-29 year olds? It was poorly marketed, and coming from someone who doesn't watch much TV, I didn't even know it had come out until it was out for ~2 months.

[Wyrm]

Here's a clue, want to sell as many games as Gears on the 360? Market your game to a demographic that has enough money to buy the fucking system.

[Ravenlock]

I had no idea it was coming out for the PC this Christmas. I just ordered a new box, so I'll have to consider picking this up!

[mister_slim]

Reading more of the N'Gai article. If I was Bill Gates, I'd call Shane Kim into my office and answer for these sins against Microsoft Game Studios. I'd probably fire him anyways too. He sold off, dissolved and lost all kinds of developers. O_o

Then they only got like 3 internal dev houses worth a damn. Although Rare is being treated like a coin in the air by everyone.

I wonder what Ed Fries is up to now? Shane Kim was also the guy that dropped Oddworld: Stranger and Psychonauts.

[Xerxes]

I wonder what Ed Fries is up to now? Shane Kim was also the guy that dropped Oddworld: Stranger and Psychonauts.

Ed Fries was the guy that thought buying Rare was a good idea wasn't he? Good Idea with Bungie, Bad Idea with Rare. I mean they should have been cheaper than that. Shane isn't doing to hot too me, unless MS just cut them off. Would seem there budget is in the shitter aside from marketing. I would look into Shane's replacement if there was some shady backhand deal he can present info to me that shows Bizarre Creations is going to be on PGR5 and BioWare still is making me trilogy only for me even though EA has them and Bungie while free is still MS's bitch.

[BigJonno]

I was closely watching a MS Game Studios title when Ed Fries left. That was a dark day for MS, so many promising, interesting games got canned without his support.

[Xerxes]

I was closely watching a MS Game Studios title when Ed Fries left. That was a dark day for MS, so many promising, interesting games got canned without his support.

Which game was that? I mean he started the downward spiral if I remember correctly. Maybe it's all Shane Kim but I thought Fries left after a few blunders.

[BigJonno]

The game I was associated with was Mythica, a Norse-themed MMORPG. It actually had some new ideas and the feature still compares favourably to WoW and the rest of the MMOs out now. I was a staff member on the game's most popular fansite, which was a pretty big deal as they never had an official forum. The game was actually a couple of days away from entering external alpha testing when the plug was pulled. I know, because I was in the test. Long story short, they canned it in order to clear the way for Vanguard, which they later sold anyway. It put a lot of good people out of jobs.