San Andreas: 'It's the sex, stupid!'

[Gamewatcher]

In an editorial about the GTA: San Andreas Hot Coffee furor, Gamestay.com (http://www.gamestay.com/stories/2005/07/15/itsTheSexStupid.html) opines:

The whole firestorm is ridiculous. Doesn't everyone think it's funny that all of these politicians are waving their arms in the air screaming about a little harmless simulated sex? I mean, the game is about killing rival gang members and lets you, within the first five minutes, drive over innocent pedestrians without penalty.

Frankly, the politicians would have an easier time making the case that there are prolonged scenes of intense violence. The sex scenes, even with the mod, are short and harmless. Heck, they even suggest that a gentleman should let the lady finish first. Is that such a wrong thing to teach our kids?

It's pretty clear now that Rockstar either intentionally planted this mini-game or stupidly failed to delete the code from the released game discs. What's not clear is how far the politicians will run with this ball and how the fallout will affect games in the future.

[Oppe]

My personal belief is that we need to find something else for people looking to make a name for themselves to rail on for a while... Something they can relate to even less than video games. Maybe we could set up some kind of Clockwork Orange type room, strap in all the founding members of Focus on the Family and whatnot and make them watch music videos on BET until they decide that "Video games aren't destroying our youth, it's that "Whisper" video!"

[Klade]

An excellent idea Oppe but I wouldn't wish these dregs on any other human being. So instead lets focus their attention on space! Lets tell them that fallout from moon dust each year kills 5000 orphans, and corrupts hundreds of others.

[Heretic Machine]

Just tell them that the rappers from Venus are sending their Gangsta' Space Rap videos to Earth, and that although they don't actually suggest that anyone be hurt violently, they are rabbid sex fiends. That'll keep them busy for a while.

Of course, we could also keep them just as busy with a ball of string...

[Mrbunchypants]

Better yet lets tell them.

"ALL your Bases Belong to us."

then walk away like nothing happend. I bet for the next month they have a host of "eggspurts" telling people what really happend.

[XxSATANxX]

Rockstar=marketing

Shitstorm=$

[Goronmon]

"ALL your Bases Belong to us."Assuming it wasn't intentional, the quote is "All your base are belong to us!" :p

[Goronmon]

Rockstar=marketing
Shitstorm=$
Quoted for truth.

Who wants to bet, Rockstar is laughing all the way to the bank on this one?

[Justin_McElroy]

From my Get the Sugar editorial "Grand Theft DOIN' IT": (http://getthesugar.blogspot.com/2005/07/grand-theft-doin-it.html)

"This just in: if you're a parent who lets your kids play games that would make Ted Nugent want to ban guns, then some hardcore American doin' it should not scare you off. You should celebrate! Your child's moral disintegration is that much closer to completion.

As a videogame vigilante, I'm willing to say the thing that everyone else is afraid to. Videogames are supposed to be fun. You know what's more fun than watching some good old-fashioned doin' it? Paramount's Kings Island. Other than that? Nothing."

[fahrvergnugen]

It's pretty clear now that Rockstar either intentionally planted this mini-game or stupidly failed to delete the code from the released game discs.

It's not a "stupid mistake" on Rockstar's part. Most likely the sections were intended for use in the game, and were delivered feature-complete and bug-tested by QA. It seems likely that late in development, they were cut from the game in order to appease the ESRB.

It is much, much more expedient to just comment out the routines that would trigger the objectionable content than it is to delete the content altogether, especially if space on the DVD is not at a premium. In a project the size of San Andreas, deleting art and sound assets, scripts, and other routines that might seem like they're only used in those particular parts of the game could cause huge rippling bugs that affect other parts of the program in ways that nobody could forsee. San Andreas shipped buggy enough as it is. Leaving the code in and locked up was the right choice in order to meet the ship date.

[splatstick]

This is the Superbowl Nipple Slip of the pixelated world, ladies and gentlemen.

[Skizott]

Any publicity is good publicity.

R* has already laughed to the bank twice. (X box & PS2)

But, this could have a major outcome on the next game. If nothing happens, that just tells them that they can push the limits even more.

[Pluvious]

It's not a "stupid mistake" on Rockstar's part. Most likely the sections were intended for use in the game, and were delivered feature-complete and bug-tested by QA. It seems likely that late in development, they were cut from the game in order to appease the ESRB.

It is much, much more expedient to just comment out the routines that would trigger the objectionable content than it is to delete the content altogether, especially if space on the DVD is not at a premium. In a project the size of San Andreas, deleting art and sound assets, scripts, and other routines that might seem like they're only used in those particular parts of the game could cause huge rippling bugs that affect other parts of the program in ways that nobody could forsee. San Andreas shipped buggy enough as it is. Leaving the code in and locked up was the right choice in order to meet the ship date.

This seems to be the most logical reason the code was left in the game. It's a very common practice with ALL games. Now will someone like Fahrvergnugen please tell the hell bent media and senators this?! For the love of god, there are more important things to get all freaked out about!

[Sloth]

I wonder how QA tested that part of the game with a straight face. If they wrote up reports in Bugzilla, it might look like "Male penis clips in and out of woman's vagina. Expected Result: Male penis to not penetrate through womb"

[Zanzibar]

It's not a "stupid mistake" on Rockstar's part. Most likely the sections were intended for use in the game, and were delivered feature-complete and bug-tested by QA. It seems likely that late in development, they were cut from the game in order to appease the ESRB.

I agree. The minigame was designed to get the same 'freak out factor' that the hookers-for-health got for GTA3. At the last minute, when Rockstar marketing said 'Look, we know about shock factor being good for sales etc, but this is just too much. It's too over-the-top and they will give us an AO rating. We're going to need to cut it.' And the developers took the lazy way out: they put in a bit in the start of the minigame script that probably says 'If {global variable}Hot_Coffee=0 then End Script.' Then the master level startup file sets Hot_Coffee to equal zero.

Well...if someone manually changes the global variable to 1 in a savegame then the script continues, and 'Hello CJ/BJ.'

But did Rockstar plan on actually leaking this? No. If they did, then they wouldn't have made the lamebrained excuses they made.

[if76]

It is much, much more expedient to just comment out the routines that would trigger the objectionable content than it is to delete the content altogether, especially if space on the DVD is not at a premium. In a project the size of San Andreas, deleting art and sound assets, scripts, and other routines that might seem like they're only used in those particular parts of the game could cause huge rippling bugs that affect other parts of the program in ways that nobody could forsee. San Andreas shipped buggy enough as it is. Leaving the code in and locked up was the right choice in order to meet the ship date.

This argument doesn't make much sense. Adding // in front of the lines of code and deleting them altogether looks exactly the same to the compiler. Whether or not they chose to leave the art assets in is irrelevant. Commenting out is the same as deleting.

My guess is this either sliped through the cracks, was left in intentionally by a rogue programmer or was a conscious decision by Rockstar corporate headquarters. My guess is it was the second.

[Furious Wang]

My question is how did God of War get away with boobs and the sex minigame?

[fahrvergnugen]

This argument doesn't make much sense. Adding // in front of the lines of code and deleting them altogether looks exactly the same to the compiler. Whether or not they chose to leave the art assets in is irrelevant. Commenting out is the same as deleting.

My guess is this either sliped through the cracks, was left in intentionally by a rogue programmer or was a conscious decision by Rockstar corporate headquarters. My guess is it was the second.

Clearly you're not in software development. While I don't work in games, so I can't really tell you if it's the same, in commercial software it works similarly to the idea I described above.

In any project I've worked on, when a project hits alpha, that usually means the build team is now issuing daily builds. At this point in the project, there's a team whose whole job is to take any code changes that have been made that day and produce a nightly build incorporating all the fixes. As the QA staff ramps up and development winds down into annoying bug hunts, you reach the point at which breaking the build == TOTAL NIGHTMARE. Without a new build nobody can work. Developers can't verify their bugfixes, QA is still hemmed in by the same showstoppers they had yesterday so they aren't turning up new bugs, and people start to grumble. Broken build == army of engineers and QA temps that you're working like slaves for 20 hours a day at $13 / hour sitting idle, or maybe actually sleeping for the first time in weeks. Given enough free time they will begin pondering how much their lives suck, and how maybe they should unionize before their jobs go to India.

This is disaster.

The more massive the change to the code, the more likely the build will break.
In this environment, you're saying that it should be easy to rip thousands of lines of code, dozens of art, sound, and animation assets?

I've never been on a project the scope of something like San Andreas, but just source code management on the (much) smaller projects I work on is sometimes a total nightmare. In almost any software project, if a feature is to be removed before ship, for whatever reason, you never remove the code behind it. You delete the UI that exposes the feature, and that's all.

The important thing to remember is that this happens all the time in games. Knights of the Old Republic II shipped with sound files and dialogue for dozens of conversations and plot twists that never made it into the final game. While it's rare that content as complete as the GTA:SA sex game is left on the DVD, it's incorrect to say they are "taking the lazy way out." They're doing what makes sense given the budget and technical constraints facing the team. Could they delete all un-used content? Sure, but the only thing it saves regarding the product as shipped is disk space, so why bother? It's not like there's a precedent for this sort of tempest in a teapot.

[Bubby]

It's pretty clear now that Rockstar either intentionally planted this mini-game or stupidly failed to delete the code from the released game discs.

Now THAT is a profound statement.

[Mrbunchypants]

Clearly you're not in software development. While I don't work in games, so I can't really tell you if it's the same, in commercial software it works similarly to the idea I described above.

In any project I've worked on, when a project hits alpha, that usually means the build team is now issuing daily builds. At this point in the project, there's a team whose whole job is to take any code changes that have been made that day and produce a nightly build incorporating all the fixes. As the QA staff ramps up and development winds down into annoying bug hunts, you reach the point at which breaking the build == TOTAL NIGHTMARE. Without a new build nobody can work. Developers can't verify their bugfixes, QA is still hemmed in by the same showstoppers they had yesterday so they aren't turning up new bugs, and people start to grumble. Broken build == army of engineers and QA temps that you're working like slaves for 20 hours a day at $13 / hour sitting idle, or maybe actually sleeping for the first time in weeks. Given enough free time they will begin pondering how much their lives suck, and how maybe they should unionize before their jobs go to India.

This is disaster.

The more massive the change to the code, the more likely the build will break.
In this environment, you're saying that it should be easy to rip thousands of lines of code, dozens of art, sound, and animation assets?

I've never been on a project the scope of something like San Andreas, but just source code management on the (much) smaller projects I work on is sometimes a total nightmare. In almost any software project, if a feature is to be removed before ship, for whatever reason, you never remove the code behind it. You delete the UI that exposes the feature, and that's all.

The important thing to remember is that this happens all the time in games. Knights of the Old Republic II shipped with sound files and dialogue for dozens of conversations and plot twists that never made it into the final game. While it's rare that content as complete as the GTA:SA sex game is left on the DVD, it's incorrect to say they are "taking the lazy way out." They're doing what makes sense given the budget and technical constraints facing the team. Could they delete all un-used content? Sure, but the only thing it saves regarding the product as shipped is disk space, so why bother? It's not like there's a precedent for this sort of tempest in a teapot.

KOTOR 2 had lots in it even an ending that was never ment to be. My guess is that they did leave it in and it never crossed there mind that someone might find it, and worse yet make a big deal about it.


And yes i did leave out the "are". Kinda like how the media leaves out things when they tell there version of the news.


There are 3 different kinds of people in the world.
Those that make things happen.
Those that watch things happen.
And those that wonder what happend.
the media prey on those last people.

[PacerDawn]

http://mythical.blogspot.com/2005/07/love-story.html

[Gamewatcher]

http://mythical.blogspot.com/2005/07/love-story.html

Slightly off-topic, but funny! :)

Regarding the other discussions about bugs and ship dates, I understand the software development process but feel compelled to state:

1) Not removing the assets carried a risk that someone would find a way to enable them - someone at Rockstar had to know that. And there should have been a way to nuke the code for the mini-game and leave the art and sounds intact. Without the code for the mini-games, there would be no ready way to access the other assets, certainly not in the form we see today with the mod. And Rockstar devs already had to write code that changed the outcome of getting invited in for coffee (triggering the brief outdoor scene vs. the mini-game). So omitting the carefully defined mini-game code should have been no problem.

2) If the code was truly commented out, it shouldn't be executable. Maybe a mod-maker could uncomment it (although I doubt it if it's compiled code). But the PS2 version? C'mon. That code was intact.

3) They had plenty of time between the PS2 release and the PC version to remove all of the mini-game code and assets if they wanted to. By then, they knew they were leaving it out of the final release of the game - that decision had been made. And if the PC version of the mini-game hadn't been discovered, it's doubtful the PS2 version would have surfaced. I have no doubt people have been tearing up the console versions looking for it since the Hot Coffee mod first appeared. Without that motivation, it might have been years before it turned up if ever.

-=Gamewatcher

[Racknahm]

My question is how did God of War get away with boobs and the sex minigame?
Because it's not set in a modern setting.

[Gamewatcher]

Because it's not set in a modern setting.

I don't think that's it at all. The camera pulls away quickly in God of War, making it more suggestive. Sure, there's a little nudity, but as I said in my Rant, that's OK for an M rating.

More importantly, the ESRB gave the game an M rating with this content clearly visible - it's quite early in the game, in fact.

Sure, setting it in a mythological universe softens it slightly. But that's not the whole story.

[Orphiuchus]

You can argue that violence is worse than sex all you want, but they knew what the rules were before they shippied the game.

This reminds me of a guy I knew in college, one night he got drunk and threw phonebooks through a bunch of windows at the complex he lived in, then he threw a bottle through a window and hit someone. The next day he told me, and I quote, "They dont need to have so many phonebooks around here, I'm gunna tell them that". I never saw that guy again.

When you fuck up you dont go tell the people who make the rules that their rules are wrong, you hang your head and take your punishment.

[Gamewatcher]

You can argue that violence is worse than sex all you want, but they knew what the rules were before they shippied the game.

This reminds me of a guy I knew in college, one night he got drunk and threw phonebooks through a bunch of windows at the complex he lived in, then he threw a bottle through a window and hit someone. The next day he told me, and I quote, "They dont need to have so many phonebooks around here, I'm gunna tell them that". I never saw that guy again.

When you fuck up you dont go tell the people who make the rules that their rules are wrong, you hang your head and take your punishment.

Gee, I love being equated with a drunk sophist. I'm disappointed you took so little away from my carefully reasoned argument.

Let me try to illustrate the issue in a different way. There are no rules, per se. Society sets the standards for things like game and movie ratings. Sure, individuals (like Hilary Clinton) can decide what they believe deserves an outcry and help focus the media attention on stuff that bothers them like the San Andreas mini-game. And that's fair, if you think about it, since it's the system's way of self-policing.

One of my points, if you read the Rant, was that even with the enhanced sexual content, the game arguably fits within the definition of an M-rated game. Now, the ESRB raters - who try to interpret their view of community standards - might still rate it AO, and that's their prerogative.

But if you disagree with ratings or a particular outcry, let your voice be heard. You are a member of the "community." You don't have to just throw up your hands and say, "Oh, those are the rules - we shouldn't have games with certain kinds of mature content because the people who set the rules say so." Over time, if there's a clear shift in community standards, that will be reflected in how games are rated and what gets an outcry from the politicians who still have to appease their constituents.

Basically, you, in a small way, help set the rules. Isn't that the idea that this country was founded on?