Bluray Lies

[Kamalot]

Recently, Evil Avatar ran a story about how the upcoming Blu-Ray format for HD movies was preferred by consumers (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3564).

GameSpot looked into the study in this week's Rumor Control column (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/16/news_6129324.html?part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6129324) and found the following:


The survey was funded by the Blu-Ray association.
When asking for the data, GameSpot was only provided with a small sample of incomplete data that compared Blu-Ray features against current DVDs, not HD-DVDs.
Consumers were told to assume the price would be the same, when in fact Blu-Ray discs are expected to sell for at least $10 more than current DVDs.

But there was no such question about whether people would prefer a format that makes the discs $10 more expensive or just 10 percent more expensive, as is expected with HD-DVDs. If the above price estimates are correct, a $20 DVD would equate to a $22 HD-DVD and a $30 Blu-Ray disc.

Looks like this whole survey is a shady steaming sack of lies from the Blu-Ray association being foisted on us as a scientific survey.

[Dirty Harry]

/me waits for the sony shit storm that is multiplying.

But honestly, I'm not suprised that the survery was flawed, because you know surveys are never correct unless they have a large sample pool to use.

[Heretic Machine]

What? We can't trust Sony? You're kidding!

[Rangoth]

What? We trusted Sony?

[falak]

The survey was funded by the Blu-Ray association.Ah, yes. There it is. But before we go on an "I hate Sony" tirade, lets remember that every major company does this, including Microsoft. They all do it.

[Edwin]

No surprise here. Like falak says all companies, institutions, and governments do it.

[serion]

Ah, yes. There it is. But before we go on an "I hate Sony" tirade, lets remember that every major company does this, including Microsoft. They all do it.

YES! Thank you. I was going to launch into a tirade of my own, luckily I read to the latest post :p

[Heretic Machine]

Ya, but some companies do it way more often, and too much further extremes...

[TrackZero]

Ah, yes. There it is. But before we go on an "I hate Sony" tirade, lets remember that every major company does this, including Microsoft. They all do it.

Yeah, because I see those HD-DVD surveys EVERYWHERE. ;P

[Atorak]

*shakes his head in disappointment*

How......how could you?!

[Zeal]

When it comes to the entertainment industry, trust no one.

[bobbler]

What makes anyone think that the price of BR movies won't be in line with HD-DVD?

You guys do realize that media cost is one of the most negligable aspects of the price we pay?

Look at VHS vs DVD and Tapes vs CDs -- they earlier incarnations cost more to produce yet the latter cost more to the consumers. We pay for content (and "quality" the content is delivered in)... not the cost of the media.

While I agree the thing was probably somewhat skewed the price of a BR movie will be within HD-DVD range. If HD-DVDs cost ~25 on average, you can be BR will too. Both sides will charge as much as they can get away with. If cost of the media had any real impact people would be paying 25+ for VHS instead of 10-15 they do now compared to DVD versions which are often 20+ for the same movie.

[if76]

Ah, yes. There it is. But before we go on an "I hate Sony" tirade, lets remember that every major company does this, including Microsoft. They all do it.

Maybe you're right but lately I've been seeing a lot of sony lies and gross exagerations.

We have the killzone video, the x360 competing with ps2 claim, the faulty psp square button done on purpose, the aging of videos etc.

We haven't seen a lot of microsoft lies lately. But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[bobbler]

Don't turn this into a comparison of who lies more -- Neither companies are saints.

Microsoft lies through their teeth in every market they are in -- they are successful for a reason. Any successful company is going to "lie" a bit.

[riposte101]

Don't turn this into a comparison of who lies more -- Neither companies are saints.

Microsoft lies through their teeth in every market they are in -- they are successful for a reason. Any successful company is going to "lie" a bit.

Show me some of Microsoft's lies? Quote them to me. Just for my information. Because we've caught Sony lying red handed time and again and I don't recall Microsoft lying.

[Adewade]

lies through their teeth in every market they are in -- they are successful for a reason. Any successful company is going to "lie" a bit.

Smaller companies - as much as legally possible.

Larger companies - a bit more than that.

[Chris_D]

The $10 more expensive sounds a bit over the top to me. Also doesn't dual layer HD-DVD require a similarly expensive upgrade on the factory line? I thought it was only single layer HD-DVD that didn't require an upgrade.

[Dracula-X]

Show me some of Microsoft's lies? Quote them to me. Just for my information. Because we've caught Sony lying red handed time and again and I don't recall Microsoft lying.
I'll start with one, it's going back a bit.

Gates said the 3-D chips in the Xbox would be three times faster than anything on the market and offer nearly unlimited graphical visuals. "We're approaching the level of detail seen in Toy Story 2," he said, referring to the computer-generated kids film from Disney/Pixar. (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,40970,00.html?tw=wn_story_related)
This thread is pointless until we KNOW what typical blueray prices will be, which probably won't deviate much if at all from HDDVD/DVD titles, until then it's pure speculation. But I guess when you're an honorary member of the Nintendo Fanboy Club Association of America and earned yourself a Princess Pussypants Toadstool secret decoder ring, you're obligated to whine about anything Sony is involved with at every turn, because I don't see where the so called lies about Blueray are (despite being funded by the Blueray board), at worst we have the obvious bias or conflict of interest - wow, what a shocker, as if this is something new.

[Rangoth]

Am I the only one who still wonders WHY I need/want a new DVD format?

[Nintendo Revolution]

Argh. Typical lying to the general public. I'm not suprised.

[kokyunage]

Show me some of Microsoft's lies? Quote them to me. Just for my information. Because we've caught Sony lying red handed time and again and I don't recall Microsoft lying.

Just look through any Windows is better than Linux survey/study. They are all funded by Microsoft and contain lies.

[CrysDark]

Why does everyone jump on the LIES bandwagon?

"funded by the blu-ray association"

They wanted to take a survey of what people say about thier product line. ALL companies do this to some extent. This wasn't a published marketing tool, it was an internal poll conducted for them selves and when they got the data someone said, ' HEY!, This looks pretty good for us lets publish it." Some of you people need to go and research how polls are taken.

If manufactuing costs are equivalent, Blu-Ray is going to succeed, why you ask, because you take the "average" consumer, and you ask them which are you more interested in, Blu-Ray or HD-DVD?" There going to pick Blu-ray because sounds trendier and sexier than HD-DVD. Hardly any consumer knows about or could care less about storage capacity or manufacturing costs.

Of course is x360 was supporting Blu-Ray this post would be seething with love comments...

[Chris_D]

I'll start with one, it's going back a bit.
Gates said the 3-D chips in the Xbox would be three times faster than anything on the market and offer nearly unlimited graphical visuals. "We're approaching the level of detail seen in Toy Story 2," he said, referring to the computer-generated kids film from Disney/Pixar.

Well the 3x faster is not totally off if you're only comparing to other consoles and perhaps refering to certain types of rendering. I suppose you could say the ps2 chipset is 3x faster than xbox for specific routines also.

And the xbox does approach TS2 detail, from quite a long way off :).

[Wonka]

Am I the only one who still wonders WHY I need/want a new DVD format?

Nope. I wonder that as well. I personally think that A LOT of people will wonder it when BR is released, though I bet not many of those folks post here on EA. (That is, I an betting that the EA audience skews a little geekier than the general populace, and that hence they would be far more likely to assume that EVERYONE would naturally want a new HD format for their movies without ever really questioning it.) Time will tell, but I smell another laserdisc format here. The discs will cost more, and will shoe the same movies with the same convenient disc format as DVD... Why should I re-purchase all my films? For higher resolutions??? It seems to me that I only just bought a collection of DVDs in the past 3-5 years... I am betting that since most DVDs ever sold have also sold in that same time frame, that perhaps I am not the only person who feels that way. Just you wait and see. Blue-ray and HD-DVD are going to be stillborn. Sony is going to try to "give the players away" by including them in the PS3, but it still won't matter. People won't have sufficient incentive to buy the DISCS in large enough quantities, and so stores will not spend precious shelf space on them... Just give it some thought before you spend a couple grand replacing your entire disc library for $25-$30 at a time. What happens if the format flops like so many other formats of this kind? What happens to this format when in 5-6 years someone makes a new format that offers something other than just more pixlels? How likely is it that you new player will support an old dead format if almost nobody bought any discs?

[Morratut]

Am I the only one who still wonders WHY I need/want a new DVD format?

Same here Rangoth. I have no need for a new format. I'm very happy with DVD.

I have only one DVD player in my house and thats my Xbox :D

Oh i may have two in my house when i buy the Xbox360 :p

[Leaving Hope]

Same here Rangoth. I have no need for a new format. I'm very happy with DVD.

I have only one DVD player in my house and thats my Xbox :D

My situation is a bit different here. I suppose it all comes down to your needs.

Single and dual layer DVD technology is a huge improvement capacity-wise over CD; however, as someone who does a great deal of high resolution video editing, in addition to routine backups, I find DVDs just aren't large enough for what I want to do.

IMO, it's the higher quality video that is pushing the demand for higher capacity media. More and more people are using their computers as PVRs, and at 350MB+ per 40 minutes of SD show it adds up quick. 5 years ago we saw a move to store our music online. Today it's video.

Although, while Blue-Ray's 30GB sounds great to me, I'm really hoping they work out the issues with HVD and bring it to market soon.

[RichardTowler]

I agree with the above, I do video recording onto PC, for example, when i record a NASCAR race, I have to record at 6mb/sec MPEG2 to be able to fit it onto DVD Dual or 2 DVD single layer discs, its always a tight fit, usually the races are between 6gb and 8gb not included pre race :) so it would be nice to have some extra space.

[bapenguin]

Eventually the cost of Blu-Ray will come down. It took a good 5 years for DVD to REALLY catch on (it was introduced in 1995). I expect the same for the Hi-Def generation of next generation DVDs. By that time, the price will be virtually the same.

[51|RandoM]

Am I the only one who still wonders WHY I need/want a new DVD format?


You can't fit high def audio, high def video, and menus, on a single DVD.

They even have trouble with just two different high def audio tracks, if you have any amount of 'extras', which ends up in 2 discs instead of one.

[Roc Ingersol]

You can't fit high def audio, high def video, and menus, on a single DVD.
No, but I can upload my single DVD to Sony and let them 'age' it for me.



;)

[agentgray]

Am I the only one who still wonders WHY I need/want a new DVD format?
Because the current crop of DVD's look like crap on HDTVs....and it's a great scheme to get us to buy them all over again. ;)

[Goronmon]

Although, while Blue-Ray's 30GB sounds great to me, I'm really hoping they work out the issues with HVD and bring it to market soon.
Amen to that, screw this whole Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD crap, let's just go straight to good stuff ;)

[TrackZero]

Because the current crop of DVD's look like crap on HDTVs....and it's a great scheme to get us to buy them all over again. ;)

They do? Funny I never noticed that.

[automaton]

I don't mind a new format moving forward. You people are assuming that you need to buy all your existing movies all over again. New generation DVD players will play legacy DVD's. So there is no worries and no one loses. I am looking forward to being able watch DVD's in high definition. If any of you saw Fox's broadcast of Attack of the Clones a few months ago in hi-def you would understand what I'm talking about. There is NOTHING LIKE watching a movie in high definition. It is so sweet. Crystal fucking clear.

[Azrikam]

The average consumer doesn't need a new DVD format. They are quite satisfied with existing DVDs. But, companies that produce these DVDs want to sell all their old movies yet again, so they are obviously going to roll out a new format, whether the public demands it or not.

The jump in quality between regular and HD DVDs isn't enough to get the average consumer to:
a) go out and buy a new DVD player. If they get one with their console, fine, which is why Sony is intent on using their PS market to push Blu-Ray.
b) replace their existing video library in the new format. This is where the real money is. CDs were a huge market because people replaced their collection of cassettes and LPs. DVDs were huge because people had videotapes slowly rotting in their closets and wanted something better.

Here's my prediction. Next-gen DVD will fail. The studios will push it hard, AV enthusiasts will buy into it, picking up just the new films that warrant it, and maybe a few classics. (Star Wars, etc) People with lots of expendable income and high-def TVs will buy in. But, without Joe Consumer buying in with reckless abandon, Next-gen DVD will not supplant vanilla DVDs in popularity. That means, Next-gen players will remain very expensive (DVD players didn't start coming down in price until the market boom), as will Next-gen DVDs. And then, in a couple years time, when a new DVD format is developed, the companies involved will scrap HD/Blu-ray, and go for the new format. (undboubtedly touting unparalleled video, audio, and storage space) The people who bought into HD/Blu-ray will have high-quality films, but eventually will find themselves in the same position as Laserdisc owners. (not that that's such a bad thing) They will have bought into an evolutionary dead-end in the consumer electronics market.

It's too early for a new format. Now if they really wanted the $$$, they'd use some of the politicians in their pocket to pass legislation banning regular DVDs. Sure, it'd be a hard sell, but that's the only way they're going to make this into the market they really want.

[Furious Wang]

I agree with the above, I do video recording onto PC, for example, when i record a NASCAR race, I have to record at 6mb/sec MPEG2 to be able to fit it onto DVD Dual or 2 DVD single layer discs, its always a tight fit, usually the races are between 6gb and 8gb not included pre race :) so it would be nice to have some extra space.


Why are you recording NASCAR races. Aren't they boring enough the first time through?

Anyway. As far as every company lying, just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right. And it certainly shouldn't prevent us from calling a company on it when they are caught red handed. Why would you even try to defend such behavior? From any company?

I too think next gen dvd will be a massive failure. Both formats. I do think HD-dvd has more potential to do well, though. Mainly on its name. People will hear "HD-dvd" and immediately realize what it is. They'll hear "Blueray" and wonder what the hell. Branding is everything. Blueray only sounds "hip and sexy" to videophiles. HD-dvd sounds dependable to everyone else.

I can already see the Best Buy employee desperately trying to sell a BR player to a customer by explaining all the differences and gettiing nowhere. "What's the price difference?" The customer will ask. His decision will then be made.

[Orphiuchus]

People need to stop saying "well, they all do it" and start saying "wait a minute, this is bullshit!". I don't like being lied to, and its really unfortunate that most people don't feel the same way because these liars who get caught at every turn still make more money than they can spend.

[Meatgortex]

The big problem with both HD formats is they aren't a big enough leap yet.

CD -> DVD = ~700Mb -> 9Gb (12x size increase)
DVD -> Blue-ray = 9Gb -> 30Gb (3.3x size increase)

Come back to me with a format that is at least a 10x improvement on current tech. Both HD and Blue-ray feel like they are jumping the gun.

[Reanimated]

Both of these formats are essentially laser disc. Niether one is going to take off.

[Rangoth]

Both HD and Blue-ray feel like they are jumping the gun.
Amen! They are creating a solution to a problem that does not exist.

[johnperkins21]

Amen! They are creating a solution to a problem that does not exist.

They are creating a solution for people who own high def television sets that want to watch their DVDs in high def as well. Standard, over-the-air television is supposed to go high def by 2007 (they may have pushed it back to 2009 now). So why shouldn't we expect the same from our movies? I'm much more interested in watching my DVDs in high def than I am some cheesy episode of Everybody Loves Raymond.

The next media format they use doesn't really matter. If they can get 1080p on a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, then I'm sold. There aren't even any TVs that do 1080p out yet, so I wouldn't say they're jumping the gun. They're just getting ready for the next wave of HDTVs.

You throw a current 480i DVD up on a 50+ inch 1080p TV, and it will look like 10 year old VHS tape rented from Blockbuster.

[51|RandoM]

They need to be created now, if you expect them to be even remotely 'adopted' by the time there is a real need for the masses.

[Kamalot]

If Bluray is a real solution to a real problem, then it will sell itself. Why bother creating bogus surveys and spewing slanted and spun results?

If the product is really that good, then people will demand it without lies. Become deceitful with the public and they will forever shun your product.

[Rangoth]

I wish I could agree with you Kamalot. Unfortunatly, the public seems to be about as sharp as a bag of wet hair. They seem to love to be lied to as long as its a lie that comes from someone they know.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

We have the killzone video, the x360 competing with ps2 claim, the faulty psp square button done on purpose, the aging of videos etc.


Whoah...what is this about the faulty square button on purpose?

[Kamalot]

Whoah...what is this about the faulty square button on purpose?
It was designed that way. The square button does not fit 'squarely' (heh) over the sensor due to the frame on the LCD screen. You can see some pictures of it on the interweb.

http://image.lik-sang.com/content/psp/release/psp-release49.jpg

The sensor for the square button (the one near the screen) is not the same distance from the other three buttons or the center hole as indicated in the picture. This means that the square button is not directly above the sensor. The system was designed with symmetry being more important than usability.

The square button then reacts differently than the other three face buttons. Sony claims that by shaving off more plastic in the manufacturing process that the button 'sticks' in the down position less than it did in the first run of PSPs, but still does not solve the problem of the button reacting differently.

If you press the button in certain ways, you can press it completely in but not get a reaction from the system, 'i.e. it does not thing the button is being pressed.'

The real stink came about when the president of Sony entertainment, Ken Kutaragi, came around telling gamers that they would have to adapt to the way the button works and likened himself to being a master architect. Rather than admitting that the face button was designed poorly he said…

"I believe we made the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody would criticize a renowned architect's blueprint that the position of a gate is wrong. It's the same as that." Yet, if an architect put a gate in a position that caused it to not function, then you better be damn straight that the architect would fix it. In fact, the architect’s reputation would be on the line. As was the case with Ken Kutaragi, who came off sounding like a mighty asshole shouting from his ivory tower.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

The big problem with both HD formats is they aren't a big enough leap yet.

CD -> DVD = ~700Mb -> 9Gb (12x size increase)
DVD -> Blue-ray = 9Gb -> 30Gb (3.3x size increase)

Come back to me with a format that is at least a 10x improvement on current tech. Both HD and Blue-ray feel like they are jumping the gun.

To be honest with you, Blu-ray can do 50GB on a dual layered disk and HD-DVD can do as much as 45GB. But the better storage disks are just around the corner. They are called HVD and can store 3.9 Terabytes...or up to 80 times as much as a Blu-Ray. Personally, the logical progression would be to HD-DVD and then to HVD. If we are expected to buy a new format, then why bother with the expense of Blu-Ray? Just get the HVD. With HD-DVD, the cost increase would be minimal and could tide the people over until HVD is accepted.

Here are links to HD DVD and Blu-Ray info:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-chronicles-of-a-futile-battle-Blu-Ray-vs-HD-DVD-631.shtml
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050511-4896.html

Here is a link to Holographic Video Discs (HVD):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Thanks...I knew Kenishi "Ken" Kutaragi said some pretty arrogant things, but this...

He has said that '...people should feel like working more hours to get a PS3."
He has said that he will ship his PS3 with a faulty SPE...there are 6 more working.

And this is just the latest of genious quotes. I hope Sony continues to be this arrogant. Unfortunately, I think Blu-Ray will win and that is depressing enough. Just by including it into the PS3...which will sell tens of millions of units, they are pretty much assured good market saturation for Blu-Ray. MS is making a mistake by not going with a higher capacity format for their game...plus DVDs will stream info slower than Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.

I think the 360 will be awesome for now...but will age badly.

[Kamalot]

And just to make life a little more interesting...

http://forevergeek.com/news/toshiba_backs_holographic_storage_technology.php

Toshiba has decided to invested in Optware, which is only one of the companies that Optware is talking to as it tried to gain more US venture capital.

Optware is currently working to finish development of its HVD (Holographic Versatile Disc) technology that would enable DVD sized discs or blocks to store upwards of 1TB (1000GB) of data. The HVD technology stores data inside a disc as holographic patterns.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

And just to make life a little more interesting...

http://forevergeek.com/news/toshiba_backs_holographic_storage_technology.php

Check out the link below...it says HVDs can hold 3.9TBs. The list of companies supporting it is small, but hopefully it grows. The most impressive part is the transfer rate. If it is this fast, the need for cache would be greatly diminished if the system could read and process 125 Gigabytes per second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc

[Ondo]

The big problem with both HD formats is they aren't a big enough leap yet.

CD -> DVD = ~700Mb -> 9Gb (12x size increase)
DVD -> Blue-ray = 9Gb -> 30Gb (3.3x size increase)

Come back to me with a format that is at least a 10x improvement on current tech. Both HD and Blue-ray feel like they are jumping the gun.

Actually, HD-DVD is 15Gb per layer, with two layers being the most common number cited but three layer discs have been developed. So it's a 5x improvement over DVD.
Blu-ray is 25Gb per layer, but they've demonstrated an 8-layer disc, so it's about a 22x improvement over DVD.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Blu-ray is 25Gb per layer, but they've demonstrated an 8-layer disc, so it's about a 22x improvement over DVD.

Actually, I hadn't heard they demonstrated the vaunted 8 layer disk. In fact they announced that they were going to unveil it and never did. Nothing beyond the 2 layer + 1 layer HD-DVD hybrid was displayed. That disk can hold 58.5.

...oh, and the three layered disk is dual sided...so I wouldn't count on that becoming mainstream.