New details regarding Solid Snake in Smash Brothers

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Since the announcement at E3 05 that Snake would be a playable character in the upcoming Smash Brothers Brawl, things have been very tight lipped. Today, on the official Brawl development diary (www.smashbros.com), developer Masahiro Sakurai posted a large amount of new screenshots and information (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/list/index.html) on his inclusion, profiling some of his moves and giving a short sample of the music he brings with him to the game.

Consistent with earlier comments, Snake will not use any firearms, but instead is loaded with the more comical (and less violent) heavy ordnance. His moveset is comprised of rocket launchers, homing missiles, grenades, mines, and even his famous cardboard box.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/4995/snake070921cyv7.jpgThe legendary mercenary makes his miraculous Smash debut! This law-breaking news roared around the world.

He comes fully loaded with cool and showy weapons that only he could possess. Couple them with these different worlds, and it will clear a path to new horizons.

I can't wait to get Pikachu in a chokehold.

[TrackZero]

Consistent with earlier comments, Snake will not use any firearms, but instead is loaded with the more comical (and less violent) heavy ordnance. His moveset is comprised of rocket launchers, homing missiles, grenades, mines, and even his famous cardboard box.

Lame. You can't just ignore the pistol, which you spend 90% of MGS using.

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Summon the fanboys to tear me down for having an opinion, and....go!

[Katslover]

Concerning the choke hold:

Kirby has no neck!

Anyway, I wonder if you tap the button repeatedly if it is instant KO?

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Lame. You can't just ignore the pistol, which you spend 90% of MGS using.

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Summon the fanboys to tear me down for having an opinion, and....go!

I understand where you're coming from but... This protection of the kids is a business move more than anything. Less violence = lower rating = larger audience.

While it might be annoying in some cases I hardly think it will negatively affect the game.

Smash Bros is all about crazy action, lots of explosions and people flying everywhere. The weaponry they've put in fits with that far more than a firearm.

[The Continental]

I hope when you do the choke hold to other characters it's even half as unintentionally erotic as the one pictured above.

Oh the hilarity!

[Llama]

Lame. You can't just ignore the pistol, which you spend 90% of MGS using.

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Summon the fanboys to tear me down for having an opinion, and....go!
I'm actually kind of happy they didn't include the pistol, not because I would have any problems shooting Kirby right in his stupid pink head, but because it would be a strange fit in a Smash Bros game. There are a ton of other guns, but they are all energy-based.

EDIT: Here's the quote from a while back:
"We thought a lot about what to do with Snake and his moves in Super Smash Bros. Brawl," said Sakurai. "As you all know Snake walks around with a gun, but with Super Smash Bros. I didn't want to bring in a lot of real weapons. So that was a real challenge. But conversely, if we could use things like rocket launchers and other explosives, not only would that be fitting for Snake, but it would work for the other characters. But who knows. Maybe Snake will exclusively use explosives throughout the game."

[Skyelan]

He’ll use anything in the battlefield.

He's planting something!

Shoosh-shoosh-shoosh-shoosh-shoosh!

Missle fired!

If I'm going to hell, I'm going down corrupting everyone else!

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Or, more accurately, real firearms would feel completely out of place in Smash. How exactly are you gonna jump over those bullets coming at you that you can barely even see, if we're talking about doing it the MGS loyal way.

Beams, rockets, explosions, etc are all easy to exaggurate and actually make playable. If Snake uses his pistol, and it remains loyal, you press the button and whoever is in front of you INSTANTLY starts getting hit, without time for reaction.

If Nintendo was doing it for 'OH NOES IT MAY HARM THE CHILLINZ', having realistically designed the other weapons kind of destroys that. And the whole 'Satan in high heels and speedo' thing. And Giga Bowser.

But hey, why be logical when you can be reactionary and over the top? :rolleyes:

Edit: Specified and fixed first paragraph, otherwise it contradicted with myself by generalizing.

[the Jack]

There was an extended series of clips of Snake in action at the Konami corner at TGS.

At first I thought it was another of Kojima's piss-takes.

There were scenes of Snake hiding in a box, uncovered by Mario, then engaging in melee. Funny stuff.

[DjinniMan]

Lame. You can't just ignore the pistol, which you spend 90% of MGS using.

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Summon the fanboys to tear me down for having an opinion, and....go!
Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say if Snake having no pistol isn't "realistic" enough (in comparison to the oh so uber realistic MGS series) for you, then SSMB and the Wii in general are NOT your cup of tea.

Too bad you are missing out on some great games.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

There was an extended series of clips of Snake in action at the Konami corner at TGS.

At first I thought it was another of Kojima's piss-takes.

There were scenes of Snake hiding in a box, uncovered by Mario, then engaging in melee. Funny stuff.

Have you got a link to this?

The smash bros thread would love to see it.

[TrackZero]

I understand where you're coming from but... This protection of the kids is a business move more than anything. Less violence = lower rating = larger audience.

While it might be annoying in some cases I hardly think it will negatively affect the game.

Smash Bros is all about crazy action, lots of explosions and people flying everywhere. The weaponry they've put in fits with that far more than a firearm.

I understand what you're saying. Essentially Nintendo is now back to pandering to the lowest common denominator and isn't interested in making games for me anymore. Fine by me, just saves me money in the long run.

[TrackZero]

But hey, why be logical when you can be reactionary and over the top? :rolleyes:

Why face facts when you can be a fanboy troll instead? These are the questions that need answering.

If you think the pistol isn't there for gameplay balance reasons, get real.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

I understand what you're saying. Essentially Nintendo is now back to pandering to the lowest common denominator and isn't interested in making games for me anymore. Fine by me, just saves me money in the long run.

Isn't this what all game companies have ultimately always done?

Also, if you check out that blog and see just how many tiny little features and throwbacks to old nintendo memorabilia there are, I think you'd find it hard to argue that the whole game is like this. Given how much of this game IS for gamers, I think we can allow them one small (not game changing) thing which will allow them more sales without seeing them as a terrible evil corporation.

[TrackZero]

Isn't this what all game companies have ultimately always done?

Also, if you check out that blog and see just how many tiny little features and throwbacks to old nintendo memorabilia there are, I think you'd find it hard to argue that the whole game is like this. Given how much of this game IS for gamers, I think we can allow them one small (not game changing) thing which will allow them more sales without seeing them as a terrible evil corporation.

Pander to their audience? Yes, my point was that I'm realizing I'm no longer a member of that crowd. Nintendo has milked me for too many years on nostalgia, and now when they have a system that sets itself apart and brings something new, they're still just recycling and limiting, and their target audience has moved even further from me. So, I'm done.

[Opty]

Waah, Nintendo isn't doing exactly what I want them to do that must mean I'm not their customer anymore! Waah, their games are designed to be fun for as many people as possible therefore it's not fun for me! Waah, I have a warped sense of entitlement and a heavy case insecurity and immaturity that makes me discount the Wii and all games that are on and ever will be on the system because I believe them to not be "mature" enough for me and not pandering enough to me specifically.

Fuck Nintendo.

[southwick]

I understand what you're saying. Essentially Nintendo is now back to pandering to the lowest common denominator and isn't interested in making games for me anymore. Fine by me, just saves me money in the long run.

Doesn't requiring a gun to enjoy a game, make you the lowest common denominator?

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Pander to their audience? Yes, my point was that I'm realizing I'm no longer a member of that crowd. Nintendo has milked me for too many years on nostalgia, and now when they have a system that sets itself apart and brings something new, they're still just recycling and limiting, and their target audience has moved even further from me. So, I'm done.

As valid as many of your points are you are over thinking this.

No matter how much of a cash in this game is, it is going to be incredible fun to play.

[TrackZero]

Waah, Nintendo isn't doing exactly what I want them to do that must mean I'm not their customer anymore! Waah, their games are designed to be fun for as many people as possible therefore it's not fun for me! Waah, I have a warped sense of entitlement and a heavy case insecurity and immaturity that makes me discount the Wii and all games that are on and ever will be on the system because I believe them to not be "mature" enough for me and not pandering enough to me specifically.

Fuck Nintendo.

Like I said, fanboys rush in. God forbid you don't like what I'm saying about my own reasoning which has nothing to do with you. Bugger off.

[TrackZero]

As valid as many of your points are you are over thinking this.

No matter how much of a cash in this game is, it is going to be incredible fun to play.

Oh, without a doubt I'm sure the game will be fun. I wouldn't claim otherwise.

[TrackZero]

Doesn't requiring a gun to enjoy a game, make you the lowest common denominator?

No, the lowest common denominator is those who need content filtered for them because it may offend their sensibilities.

[Shodan2020]

Dude! CQC!

[Kamalot]

Nintendo has milked me for too many years on nostalgia...

Funny, Nintendo earns my cash by producing incredibly fun games. If something isn't fun, I don't buy it, no milking.

Also, the amount of fun I have in a game isn't restricted to how realistic the firearms are.

[TrackZero]

Funny, Nintendo earns my cash by producing incredibly fun games. If something isn't fun, I don't buy it, no milking.

Also, the amount of fun I have in a game isn't restricted to how realistic the firearms are.

The firearms realism is a weak argument to take it out. There's zero reason it couldn't have been the tranq gun.

[Kamalot]

The firearms realism is a weak argument to take it out. There's zero reason it couldn't have been the tranq gun.

That fact that Snake does not have in the pistol in the game will not lessen the fun gameplay of the title.

...and it IS about the gameplay... right?

[Baron Samedi]

Funny, Nintendo earns my cash by producing incredibly fun games. If something isn't fun, I don't buy it, no milking.

Exactly. Nintendo, for all their milking, consistently makes quality games. If you no longer like it, don't buy it. All the industry is guilty of this - even us fanboys, who love our sequels (Halo 3 anybody?).

[Generation ABXY]

Ten bucks says he still buys it.

[BlackPete]

The firearms realism is a weak argument to take it out. There's zero reason it couldn't have been the tranq gun.

Last time I looked, it was you who said that the gun was removed due to realism and kiddification.

Did you even see the quote from the developer? They took it out due to gameplay reasons.

[southwick]

No, the lowest common denominator is those who need content filtered for them because it may offend their sensibilities.

Ignoring that it might be for gameplay/balance reasons I am okay with the world not revolving around me and appreciate that there are games like this for kids and adults alike.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

I hope when you do the choke hold to other characters it's even half as unintentionally erotic as the one pictured above.

Oh the hilarity!

I agree - that picture is kind of hot. :o

[shnastybiznastic]

The firearms realism is a weak argument to take it out. There's zero reason it couldn't have been the tranq gun.
Look, I'm going to try and write something you won't write off as fanboy drivel, so pay attention.

If you give Snake a little service pistol like he has in the MGS games, how would it be designed?

It can't be like Fox's blaster, which has a slower shot travel and big fucking glowing bullets. It would have to have much faster bullet travel time, and the shots would have to be almost undetectible before they hit you.

That means it wouldn't be something you could respond to in the middle of a game, which is what Smash is all about. A rocket launcher, on the other hand, is in the MGS games, travels slow enough and is visible enough to make it fun for the other players, and has knockback which translates well into Smash.

Noone is trying to "protect the kiddies". They are trying to design a game that is balanced where all the characters fit.

[LikeTheRazor]

Anyone who thinks the lack of a gun is a big deal has no understanding of Smash Bros.

[Kamalot]

Look, I'm going to try and write something you won't write off as fanboy drivel, so pay attention.

If you give Snake a little service pistol like he has in the MGS games, how would it be designed?

It can't be like Fox's blaster, which has a slower shot travel and big fucking glowing bullets. It would have to have much faster bullet travel time, and the shots would have to be almost undetectible before they hit you.

That means it wouldn't be something you could respond to in the middle of a game, which is what Smash is all about. A rocket launcher, on the other hand, is in the MGS games, travels slow enough and is visible enough to make it fun for the other players, and has knockback which translates well into Smash.

Noone is trying to "protect the kiddies". They are trying to design a game that is balanced where all the characters fit.

Good point!

Make Snake's pistol shoot plungers, then everyone is happy. Players can see and react to the shots, kids are safe, and Snake has a 'realistic' gun.

Win - Win - Win !!!

[mister_slim]

I can see Jack Thompson's next target. All we need are shots of Snake choking Samus and Lyn.
I agree - that picture is kind of hot. :o
True that. I bet we get some good fanfic Snake/Ike fanfic out of SSBB.

I'm also really surprised how well SSBB melded the different art styles. Snake and Ike don't clash (visually) at all.

[KSmitty]

As sad as it is for me to admit this I had completely forgotten about Snake.

And TrackZero I know this won't fit well with your 'Nintendo catering to the kidiez' view, but Snake having a sidearm or a fully automatic weapon would have broken the character. And on top of that Smash Bros has NEVER been about realism and ALL about over the top frantic action.

[cp#]

Lame. You can't just ignore the pistol, which you spend 90% of MGS using.

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Summon the fanboys to tear me down for having an opinion, and....go!

If that makes you not want a Wii... just wow.

[Rock Bandit]

How is taking away the handgun and giving him an f'n BAZOOKA making it kiddie safe?

"We didn't want to give Snake a gun because it would be too violent for kids and we in no way want to expose kids to such images. So anyway, here's some footage of Snake grabbing Pikachu by the throat and planting some C4 on his back...."

[BlackPete]

Put another way: Do you see pistols in Soul Calibur? Virtua Fighter? Mortal Kombat?

No? Therefore they must've been toned down for kids.

I hope you can see a problem with that argument.

[TrackZero]

Last time I looked, it was you who said that the gun was removed due to realism and kiddification.

Did you even see the quote from the developer? They took it out due to gameplay reasons.

They can say whatever they'd like.

[TrackZero]

Good point!

Make Snake's pistol shoot plungers, then everyone is happy. Players can see and react to the shots, kids are safe, and Snake has a 'realistic' gun.

Win - Win - Win !!!

Bang on, the thing could even shoot marshmallows. My point is his pistol is part of his character. By removing it, they're doing a disservice. I already stated it could be the tranq pistol, which would work fine for gameplay, so again, that's a bunk argument to those still contesting it. But ce la vie, I'm just saying I think it's bullshit. I never said the game won't be fun.

And no, I won't be buying it. I didn't grab it on the cube either, but I respect the game. And I'm not saying people shouldn't love the shit out of it.

God forbid anyone speaks ill of a Nintendo property, I think this thread made my point. You can't even criticize a small asset being missing for a reason other than what the developer claims without constant defense posts. Get a grip people.

[TrackZero]

Put another way: Do you see pistols in Soul Calibur? Virtua Fighter? Mortal Kombat?

No? Therefore they must've been toned down for kids.

I hope you can see a problem with that argument.

Can you see the problem with yours? If not, think about it. I shouldn't even have to explain it.

[TrackZero]

If that makes you not want a Wii... just wow.

The only titles I'm interested in for the system are MP 3, No More Heroes and RE: Umbrella Chronicles so far, it's not at a point I feel the need to buy it yet. I'm not saying I won't down the road.

[Skyelan]

So Track, explain. How would you make his pistol work in Smash Bros? Come on, you know that we raging fanboys are just making excuses, so prove us wrong. The point has been made that the very way his Tranq gun and Pistols work wouldn't fit with Smash Gameplay, but clearly that isn't true, so it shouldn't be too hard.

Or you could keep ignoring the points and bawl about them being kiddy Nintendo defenders. That seems to work out well for you. :rolleyes:

Edit: Saw your point about the Tranq gun. So, your point just blew up in your face? A Tranq gun is no more 'violent' than a rocket launcher or explosive mines, or a mortar.

One could easily make the point that a gun which puts enemies to sleep would completely fuck with the balance. Jigglypuff's Sing isn't that cheap because you need to be close, but with Snake all you'd need to do is pelt them from a far off distance.

How exactly is that not fucking up the game?

[Opty]

I love to go into threads for games I don't intend on buying or playing and disparaging some aspect of it that truly doesn't matter to me because as mentioned before I'm not bothing with the game and then calling everyone fanboys when they get mad at me for getting angry and shitting up a thread over something that's insignificant to the people who enjoy the game. I'm gonna go do it to a Halo thread now! Let's go everyone!

[TrackZero]

So Track, explain. How would you make his pistol work in Smash Bros? Come on, you know that we raging fanboys are just making excuses, so prove us wrong. The point has been made that the very way his Tranq gun and Pistols work wouldn't fit with Smash Gameplay, but clearly that isn't true, so it shouldn't be too hard.

There's no reason the Tranq gun can't be used as a quick shot weapon that stuns and has a slow reload time. The dart could have it's speed set so that while it's quick, it's not crazy (no instant-hitting someone who's going to fall off the map), and it perfectly fits in the games motif. I don't see how you couldn't think that up for yourself, or the developer, like I said, this argument is FUD.

Or you could keep ignoring the points and bawl about them being kiddy Nintendo defenders. That seems to work out well for you. :rolleyes:

Rolling my eyes is all I feel about your attitude so far, I've been nothing but straightforward and didn't attack you.

Edit: Saw your point about the Tranq gun. So, your point just blew up in your face? A Tranq gun is no more 'violent' than a rocket launcher or explosive mines, or a mortar.

Nor would a rocket launcher, because this wasn't about violence, it never was, once again Nintendo fanboys assumed I meant one thing and went right to town. This was about the look of a character, Snake needs his sidearm, you don't go throwing Magikoopa into another game and take away his wand as a reaction to cultural implications for that specific game, otherwise it's not really that character anymore.



One could easily make the point that a gun which puts enemies to sleep would completely fuck with the balance. Jigglypuff's Sing isn't that cheap because you need to be close, but with Snake all you'd need to do is pelt them from a far off distance.

How exactly is that not fucking up the game?

Jigglypuff's singing is also a radius attack instead of a directional one, so you can hit someone coming up behind you (or hanging off a ledge), which the tranq gun wouldn't be able to do. It's just another move.

But write it off as "cheap", as I see you feel the need to win an argument, because you know, all I did was state my fucking opinion, and shame on me for doing so. I've only been playing video games for 24 goddamn years, what would I know about combat systems, weapons and balance? Go fuck yourself fanboy.

[TrackZero]

I love to go into threads for games I don't intend on buying or playing and disparaging some aspect of it that truly doesn't matter to me because as mentioned before I'm not bothing with the game and then calling everyone fanboys when they get mad at me for getting angry and shitting up a thread over something that's insignificant to the people who enjoy the game. I'm gonna go do it to a Halo thread now! Let's go everyone!

I love people who attach themselves personally to the success of a product they have no vested interest in and pile-on someone who has a different opinion than them and ignore every comment the person makes. So I'm going to break your argument down, because I don't enjoy being backed into a corner by righteous indignation with no basis.

1. don't intend on buying or playing

Actually no, as I said, I was getting interested in this game, my point was that this character alteration only reminded me why I had lost touch with this series in the first place.

2. disparaging some aspect of it that truly doesn't matter

There you go, if it truly doesn't matter, why do you feel the need to attack me as a person? Oh wait, because it DOES matter to you. Deep down you feel that my criticism will somehow detract from someone else's enjoyment of the title, which isn't the case at all. This is a forum, we discuss things, understand? If you disagree with me, state why (at least some people here have), don't attack me for stating my view on a subjective entertainment experience.

3. calling everyone fanboys when they get mad at me for getting angry and shitting up a thread over something that's insignificant to the people who enjoy the game.

Because you shouldn't be getting emotional over something this, that there is the sign that you are being a fanboy over something. There's no reason to be mad at me from the get go. You can think "bah, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about" most certainly, but actually getting angry shows the fault lies on the other side, I was predicting this would happen, and it did. I wasn't being angry in my initial post, in fact, my comment was "lame". My anger only came when personal hate was directed at me for even stating my view on the subject.

4. I'm gonna go do it to a Halo thread now! Let's go everyone!

Go ahead..? You obviously don't know me, as I completely understand people who don't like Halo and have always been up for discussing its many faults (there are many, and I would like to see them fixed for a better game in the 3rd title). Perhaps you'd feel more at home over at Gamefaqs if this is the way you like to talk to other people.

[Opty]

I don't see where I attacked you as a person nor where I got emotional nor where I did anything besides use Halo as a comparison franchise that one could do this whole trolling thing you're doing with. I'm sorry you took personal offense to my post and I'm sorry you think I'm hunched over my keyboard sweating, wiping my brow after every word typed, hyperventilating and muttering to myself angrily because someone's found fault with a game that's not out yet.

My first post was making fun of the fact you were complaining over something as tiny as Snake not having a gun and my second was making fun of your overreacting. Your Snake+Pistol=OTP argument would be like complaining about how the hazard meter being gone from MP3 means Nintendo's lost touch with you or because the GUI's different in Halo 3 means Microsoft's lost touch with you. It's an absurd argument and I made fun of it. You were the one who got angry first, calling me a fanboy and prancing around as if you were being persecuted. So I made fun of you for doing that as well, and look, you've made the standard quote-by-setence internet rebuttal whereas I'm sitting over here laughing at you for freaking out so much.

[Durka-Dan]

Why face facts when you can be a fanboy troll instead? These are the questions that need answering.

If you think the pistol isn't there for gameplay balance reasons, get real.

Speaking of trolling/fanboism..

Like snake not having a pistol turns you off to the wii and ruined your day. Could you possibly exaggerate this a little more?

[Durka-Dan]

Rolling my eyes is all I feel about your attitude so far, I've been nothing but straightforward and didn't attack you.

You more or less begged to be "attacked" by that asshole post that kicked this thread off in the right direction. Now your all surprised that your taking heat. Get a clue man.

But write it off as "cheap", as I see you feel the need to win an argument, because you know, all I did was state my fucking opinion, and shame on me for doing so. I've only been playing video games for 24 goddamn years, what would I know about combat systems, weapons and balance? Go fuck yourself fanboy.

State your opinion wherever and whenever you want. Don't act like a bitch and get all pissy because someone responds to your opinion with their opinion. YOU came HERE to this thread where you should have anticipated a negative response and it appears you did. So why do you act like this is out of the blue or that you need to come back here and explain to us "fanboys" something when all you'll do is get pissed off and play the victim.

And for the record, MGS can ABSOLUTELY be played without the use of the pistol. So fuck your 24 years.

[Odyzen]

Lame. You can't just ignore the pistol, which you spend 90% of MGS using.

Oh wait, you can, because it's Nintendo showing they're just for kids, again. Fuck, here I was getting in the mood for a Wii lately and shit like this puts me right off again.

Summon the fanboys to tear me down for having an opinion, and....go!

"We thought a lot about what to do with Snake and his moves in Super Smash Bros. Brawl," said Sakurai. "As you all know Snake walks around with a gun, but with Super Smash Bros. I didn't want to bring in a lot of real weapons. So that was a real challenge. But conversely, if we could use things like rocket launchers and other explosives, not only would that be fitting for Snake, but it would work for the other characters. But who knows. Maybe Snake will exclusively use explosives throughout the game."It's obvious that Sakurai was aware of the compromise that had to be made with the type of character Snake is and his vision (not introducing realistic weapons, easily obtainable?). I guess he knew that there would be some backlash from Snake fans, like Track, and why I think he mentioned it early. I wouldn't argue with Track for being upset, it's understandable. It's the same thing as seeing Sonic race Mario and they're both neck and neck. WTF is that?

I thought about 3 ways that we could've kept Snakes pistol:

1) Make his pistol like the 8/16-bit era. Allow him to fire a few pellets (say 5) at a time that can be dodged. However the impact of all the bullets is like 1-2% damage. The effect is to stop the others and be annoying. Snake might be able to jump while doing it but can't move back and forth, also meaning the pellets only can be shot horizontally.

2) The pistol has no bullets and is a basic attack, where in close combat, Snakes pistol-whips you. Also as a one time thing he can chuck it at your head. Afterwards it would be an object like Samus' suit that can be thrown around.

3) It's just an item that can be thrown around or have limited huge bullets with smoke-trails and disappear after use.

So, it could be kept. Is it in the spirit of Smash Bros? I'm going to say maybe not. Maybe in previous incarnation of Smash Bros but not Brawl. Sakurai has put in so many technical mechanic in all of the objects, uses of the map, and in-dpeth thought into the characters that this version of Smash Bros is more strategic and technical than the crazy fight it was in the past. Not saying it there won't be crazy fighting. How Sakurai designed Snake is exactly how he is supposed to be for Super Smash Bros Brawl.

Is it a compromise on Snake? Yes, but not as bad as seeing Sonic neck and neck to Mario at the finish line.

Track, I implore you to get SSBB when you get a brawl. :)

[shnastybiznastic]

There's no reason the Tranq gun can't be used as a quick shot weapon that stuns and has a slow reload time. The dart could have it's speed set so that while it's quick, it's not crazy (no instant-hitting someone who's going to fall off the map), and it perfectly fits in the games motif. I don't see how you couldn't think that up for yourself, or the developer, like I said, this argument is FUD.

What about shot visibility? Stun time? I'm genuinely interested in this, since you seem to have a good head on about all this.

Nor would a rocket launcher, because this wasn't about violence, it never was, once again Nintendo fanboys assumed I meant one thing and went right to town. This was about the look of a character, Snake needs his sidearm, you don't go throwing Magikoopa into another game and take away his wand as a reaction to cultural implications for that specific game, otherwise it's not really that character anymore.

Hrmn. This is a good point, would having the gun in his character model fit enough? Once again, genuinely interested. The sidearm itself changes from game to game (isn't he wielding a SIG in MGS4?), so it's not dedication to a certain firearm. I could see making the case to have a pistol present, but I have a hard time rationalizing it as an important character aspect. Especially since Snake seems detached in all the games, not holding one tool for mission completion over another.



Jigglypuff's singing is also a radius attack instead of a directional one, so you can hit someone coming up behind you (or hanging off a ledge), which the tranq gun wouldn't be able to do. It's just another move.

But it's also very close range, and incapacitates you for a time. In the end, sing is a very situational move, one that you need to time properly to make use of.

I guess my worry with giving Snake pistol shot move is that it will lead to spraying (which itself is very un-Snake).

[Kamalot]

Super Smash Bros is going to be very fun, even if some fans don't get to see all their characters represented exactly as they wanted.

I know people that bitched about Tom Bombadil not appearing in the Lord of the Rings movies as well. Does that makes the movies themselves any worse on their own?

[Gilius Thunderhead]

I know people that bitched about Tom Bombadil not appearing in the Lord of the Rings movies as well. Does that makes the movies themselves any worse on their own?

Don't remind me! I loved Tom Bombadil. He did some awesome shit.

[TrackZero]

Speaking of trolling/fanboism..

Like snake not having a pistol turns you off to the wii and ruined your day. Could you possibly exaggerate this a little more?

It just shows me that the commitment isn't to the character, it's to making money by being willing to modify him for expanding the markets sake.

[TrackZero]

I know people that bitched about Tom Bombadil not appearing in the Lord of the Rings movies as well. Does that makes the movies themselves any worse on their own?

Actually I was miffed by that too. They erased half the first book, it's pretty fucked.

[TrackZero]

What about shot visibility? Stun time? I'm genuinely interested in this, since you seem to have a good head on about all this.

I'm not on the payroll to design the game for them, they've made their choices.

Hrmn. This is a good point, would having the gun in his character model fit enough? Once again, genuinely interested. The sidearm itself changes from game to game (isn't he wielding a SIG in MGS4?), so it's not dedication to a certain firearm. I could see making the case to have a pistol present, but I have a hard time rationalizing it as an important character aspect. Especially since Snake seems detached in all the games, not holding one tool for mission completion over another.

Honestly, I'd have been fine with any sidearm, but removing it entirely just showed me what they're line of thinking is. But since my mental image of Snake at least has his pistol holster, that's enough for me. And I'm not even a huge MGS fan.





But it's also very close range, and incapacitates you for a time. In the end, sing is a very situational move, one that you need to time properly to make use of.

And the tranq gun couldn't be? As I said, the entire discussion is FUD, it's a choice that has nothing to do with gameplay, it's all about Nintendo trying to widen their audience, even at the cost of the characters involved.

I guess my worry with giving Snake pistol shot move is that it will lead to spraying (which itself is very un-Snake).

Long reload times on the tranq would completely eliminate that.

[TrackZero]

Speaking of trolling/fanboism..

Like snake not having a pistol turns you off to the wii and ruined your day. Could you possibly exaggerate this a little more?

Already explained in other replies, so quit replying just to get a word in.

[BlackPete]

Can you see the problem with yours? If not, think about it. I shouldn't even have to explain it.

And what exactly is my argument as you see it?

I am taking your argument and using it on Soul Calibur. A pistol in Soul Calibur really wouldn't work because it's simply not that type of game. So it simply doesn't make sense to complain about the lack of a pistol in that game.

Ditto for Smash Bros. A pistol simply wouldn't work in a Smash Bros game.

You're pissed that they "broke" the Snake character. I get it. However, what I (and everyone else) am saying is that if they tried to be faithful to the Snake character, it would break the game. So either they drop the pistol or they cut the character altogether.

Personally I'd go with just cutting the pistol.

[TrackZero]

You more or less begged to be "attacked" by that asshole post that kicked this thread off in the right direction. Now your all surprised that your taking heat. Get a clue man.

Oh, gee, maybe I should wait until everyone else has posted first, then come in at the end, just so I won't be attacked? My opinion was still valid, and correct. Just because fanboys are sheep doesn't make me any less right.



State your opinion wherever and whenever you want. Don't act like a bitch and get all pissy because someone responds to your opinion with their opinion. YOU came HERE to this thread where you should have anticipated a negative response and it appears you did. So why do you act like this is out of the blue or that you need to come back here and explain to us "fanboys" something when all you'll do is get pissed off and play the victim.

I didn't slap down the right for others to state their opinions, I only replied to those who directed themselves at me. I stated my opinion and then did exactly that, I anticipated a negative response, because like always, no one DARES to say something, even minutely wrong with a Nintendo title without having the fanboys attack.

So you're saying I shouldn't come into a thread with a criticism, essentially, and then complain that someone will make personal attacks on me? I deserve it because I predicted a knee-jerk response? Bah, if I accepted that, I'd never want to post in another thread again unless I went along with the mainstream opinion.

The problem is, so many people are fanboys without even realizing it themselves, but become enraged at the suggestion itself. You'd have been better off not replying to me at all here, as you've done nothing to add to the conversation that wasn't already brought up by myself or others.

And for the record, MGS can ABSOLUTELY be played without the use of the pistol. So fuck your 24 years.

I didn't say it couldn't be played without it, I said you still need it for the character. It still needs to be on snakes character model, otherwise it's not really snake in the first place.

(Up until this point, I've been relatively civil, until you had to finish this up with that witty witty response. And this is what you get.....)

Fuck my 24 years? Fuck you shitface, go rot in a goddamn hole instead of coming in and attacking me for no fucking goddamn reason whatsoever. You want to make an enemy? Congrats, you just did it, I hope it was worth it to your pathetic fucking ego. Fucking asshole, acting like a internet fuckwad, for what? What purpose? WHY, TELL ME WHY YOU REPLIED TO ME.

Was it so you'd feel better about yourself? Do you actually believe ANYONE at Nintendo cares that you defend this game? Are you hoping I'll suddenly come to some vast realization about the nature of gaming I didn't understand before once I saw the fecal ridden nuggets of widsom you posted back to me?

Fuck off kid.

(Oh, and I just for the record, do NOT post back to a guy who's already went through another batch of idiots before you, has the flu, and having a nic fit because it's been 24 hours since his last smoke.)

[TrackZero]

You're pissed that they "broke" the Snake character. I get it. However, what I (and everyone else) am saying is that if they tried to be faithful to the Snake character, it would break the game. So either they drop the pistol or they cut the character altogether.

That's just it, I'm not pissed about them breaking Snakes character. I'm not that invested in this. All I noted is that this just made me realize how Nintendo isn't targeting me as it's audience anymore. So there's no reason I should support them either. I've already got 2 other companies designing consoles and targeting titles at me, I don't need a 3rd.

Making Snake faithfully can still be done without breaking the gameplay, as I've explained in other posts how to do so. But it's not the gameplay that's the problem to the developer, it's having a firearm in what by Nintendo is perceived as a childrens game. Which is the real issue at hand.

[Kamalot]

That's just it, I'm not pissed about them breaking Snakes character. I'm not that invested in this. All I noted is that this just made me realize how Nintendo isn't targeting me as it's audience anymore.

Sorry. That's bullshit.

Had they not included Snake, the game would have been the same game. Smash Bros is what it is. Like it? Fine, buy it. Don't like it? Fine, don't buy it. Nobody is 'leaving gamers behind' because they didn't give Snake a fucking model of a 3D pistol.

Sorry you didn't get the level of fan-service you expected when they announced Snake, a goddamn EXTRA BONUS CHARACTER that Nintendo didn't even need to put in the game to begin with. But you must be right, by adding Snake into the game, they announced that they aren't targeting you. In fact, somewhere on the box I bet there will be a little sticker that reads, "For teh kiddies only. Real gamers any anyone who likes Snake just bugger off now."

You got a bug up your butt while sitting on your high horse. Maybe one day you'll be able to see that.

[TrackZero]

Sorry. That's bullshit.

Had they not included Snake, the game would have been the same game. Smash Bros is what it is. Like it? Fine, buy it. Don't like it? Fine, don't buy it. Nobody is 'leaving gamers behind' because they didn't give Snake a fucking model of a 3D pistol.

Sorry you didn't get the level of fan-service you expected when they announced Snake, a goddamn EXTRA BONUS CHARACTER that Nintendo didn't even need to put in the game to begin with. But you must be right, by adding Snake into the game, they announced that they aren't targeting you. In fact, somewhere on the box I bet there will be a little sticker that reads, "For teh kiddies only. Real gamers any anyone who likes Snake just bugger off now."

You got a bug up your butt while sitting on your high horse. Maybe one day you'll be able to see that.

So I shouldn't expect characters to, you know, be designed like they normally are? That's considered "fan-service" now? Wow, how our self-respect has fallen.

Next time I post an honest revelation, I'll be sure that it's one that doesn't damage the fragile egos of Nintendo fans. It's clear to me now that they want to live in a fantasy world whether they're playing a game, or just handling real life.

[Kamalot]

So I shouldn't expect characters to, you know, be designed like they normally are? That's considered "fan-service" now? Wow, how our self-respect has fallen.

Next time I post an honest revelation, I'll be sure that it's one that doesn't damage the fragile egos of Nintendo fans. It's clear to me now that they want to live in a fantasy world whether they're playing a game, or just handling real life.

You aren't hurting my ego. I could care less who is in Super Smash Bros, or what weapons they have. You've backed yourself into a corner though.

That's just it, I'm not pissed about them breaking Snakes character. I'm not that invested in this. All I noted is that this just made me realize how Nintendo isn't targeting me as it's audience anymore.
******************
So I shouldn't expect characters to, you know, be designed like they normally are? That's considered "fan-service" now? Wow, how our self-respect has fallen.

Honestly, what's your real beef with the 'lack of a pistol'. We've been round robin so many times that I don't even know why you are pissed any more.

Nintendo is making a game. A game for gamers. In doing so, they left out a cosmetic accessory to a character, like putting Batman in a game without a batmobile. And somehow out of all of this you managed to turn it into "Nintendo isn't targeting gamers"? That's total bullshit.

[TrackZero]

You aren't hurting my ego. I could care less who is in Super Smash Bros, or what weapons they have. You've backed yourself into a corner though.

That's just it, I'm not pissed about them breaking Snakes character. I'm not that invested in this. All I noted is that this just made me realize how Nintendo isn't targeting me as it's audience anymore.
******************
So I shouldn't expect characters to, you know, be designed like they normally are? That's considered "fan-service" now? Wow, how our self-respect has fallen.

Honestly, what's your real beef with the 'lack of a pistol'. We've been round robin so many times that I don't even know why you are pissed any more.

Nintendo is making a game. A game for gamers. In doing so, they left out a cosmetic accessory to a character, like putting Batman in a game without a batmobile. And somehow out of all of this you managed to turn it into "Nintendo isn't targeting gamers"? That's total bullshit.

No, it's like putting the punisher in a game and taking away his guns. Same deal. If you can't figure it, again, you're just making excuses for this to yourself.

[Kamalot]

No, it's like putting the punisher in a game and taking away his guns. Same deal. If you can't figure it, again, you're just making excuses for this to yourself.

So, put the punisher in a game without pistols, but he has a rocket launcher? That's cool. How about putting Spawn in a game and not giving him his cape? Well, then it just isn't Spawn, is it? Oh, that's exactly what they did in Soul Calibur 2. Somehow, the game turned out to be fabulous anyways.

Honestly, I'm not that invested in this. I couldn't care less what accessories they give Snake, or Mario or whoever else they put in the game. If the game is great, I'll buy it.

I believe Solid Snake is man enough that he can handle himself in Smash Bros using only his wits and the weapons available on the battlefield.

[TrackZero]

So, put the punisher in a game without pistols, but he has a rocket launcher? That's cool. How about putting Spawn in a game and not giving him his cape? Well, then it just isn't Spawn, is it? Oh, that's exactly what they did in Soul Calibur 2. Somehow, the game turned out to be fabulous anyways.

Honestly, I'm not that invested in this. I couldn't care less what accessories they give Snake, or Mario or whoever else they put in the game. If the game is great, I'll buy it.

I believe Solid Snake is man enough that he can handle himself in Smash Bros using only his wits and the weapons available on the battlefield.

Well good for you, I don't. So we disagree, the end.

[Kamalot]

Well good for you, I don't. So we disagree, the end.

You don't think Snake is man enough to play Smash Bros without his pistol? :eek:

Master Chief could do it. Hell, I say drop Simon Belmont in there without a whip and see how long he lasts. What about Kratos without his blades? He'd just rip Pikachu in half!

[BlackPete]

I believe Solid Snake is man enough that he can handle himself in Smash Bros using only his wits and the weapons available on the battlefield.

That actually brings up an awesome idea: Imagine MacGyver as a bonus character! :eek:

Now that would be all kinds of awesome.

[BlackPete]

Making Snake faithfully can still be done without breaking the gameplay, as I've explained in other posts how to do so. But it's not the gameplay that's the problem to the developer, it's having a firearm in what by Nintendo is perceived as a childrens game. Which is the real issue at hand.

OK. So bottom line. Your problem is that the pistol got removed because Nintendo has a problem with firearms. Correct? Let me know if I missed something.

If that's the case, then I have two questions:

1) Has anyone other than yourself said that this is indeed the case? That it was removed to keep it kid friendly and not for gameplay reasons?

2) How would you describe the other weapons in the game? Like the bazooka Snake has? Is that a firearm?

[TrackZero]

You don't think Snake is man enough to play Smash Bros without his pistol? :eek:

Master Chief could do it. Hell, I say drop Simon Belmont in there without a whip and see how long he lasts. What about Kratos without his blades? He'd just rip Pikachu in half!

Trust me, I wasn't happy about the Spartan in DOA4 either.

[TrackZero]

OK. So bottom line. Your problem is that the pistol got removed because Nintendo has a problem with firearms. Correct? Let me know if I missed something.

If that's the case, then I have two questions:

1) Has anyone other than yourself said that this is indeed the case? That it was removed to keep it kid friendly and not for gameplay reasons?

2) How would you describe the other weapons in the game? Like the bazooka Snake has? Is that a firearm?

I'm sure the bazooka will be "kiddied up", just like the ones in Worms. I can understand their avoiding a pistol, as it's harder to do that. But the tranq gun would be perfect.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Honestly, I'd have been fine with any sidearm, but removing it entirely just showed me what they're line of thinking is. But since my mental image of Snake at least has his pistol holster, that's enough for me.

Oh, so you'd be happy if it was just on his model even if he wasn't using it?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2381/snake070921clov5.jpg

Cool so basically you can be quiet now.

[TrackZero]

Oh, so you'd be happy if it was just on his model even if he wasn't using it?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2381/snake070921clov5.jpg

Cool so basically you can be quiet now.

Oh snap. Perhaps I can be.

[Durka-Dan]

(Up until this point, I've been relatively civil, until you had to finish this up with that witty witty response. And this is what you get.....)

piss and moan, piss and moan...

http://www.talesofinterest.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/268989343_l.jpg

"My opinion was still valid, and correct." Your not considering it an opinion when you believe it is actually factual. No, you've crossed into a different realm there, sir. There is no way we can reason with you since there is no evidence to point anybody in any direction. So, you show up, state your opinion, say it's correct, and go fucking ballistic when people disagree with you, as evident by your quadruple double post about something you cannot possibly argue and hope to get anywhere. You wanna talk about stupid ass posts that don't get us anywhere? You seem to be apart of the problem, if not THE problem, as far as this thread is concerned.

[TDub301]

OK, stopped at page 3, so the argument may be over now. But I honestly don't see a big difference between Fox's blaster and Snake's gun, except the blaster shoots big laser shots instead of bullets. It would be just as fast. You react to the shots by seeing Fox pick up his blaster really quick, the shots themselves still move as fast as a bullet in the game probably would. And for the record you can barely see Sheik's darts, so the visibility thing isn't a big issue, either. So in that regard, I agree with you Track. And this is coming from someone who thinks Melee is the greatest game ever (just my opinion, don't want to start a new war here).

That being said, it's all just a game. See this as a fight, Track is taking all you on with words and you are all fighting back. It's not about whose right or wrong, it's about how makes the other look more stupid. That's all it's ever about with blogs, the topic could be anything.

Bottom line, the game's director (who is very close friends with MGS's creator and has consulted with him a whole lot about how to make Snake in the game) felt it was better to do without the gun for whatever reason. To me Snake wasn't about a pistol, he was about sneaking around and espionage and stuff like that. I'm not hurt by his pistol being gone, it's just one of the many weapons in his arsenal. If you chose to use his pistol more than anything else in the game, then that was for you. I usually just snuck up behind people and broke their neck, which we can see by the pic is probably in the game so I'm happy.

[KSmitty]

I'm sure the bazooka will be "kiddied up", just like the ones in Worms. I can understand their avoiding a pistol, as it's harder to do that. But the tranq gun would be perfect.

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x100/Ksmitty99/snake_070921g-l1.jpg
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x100/Ksmitty99/snake_070921b1.jpg
Man that is one Tom and Jerry looking bazooka right there.

OK, stopped at page 3, so the argument may be over now. But I honestly don't see a big difference between Fox's blaster and Snake's gun, except the blaster shoots big laser shots instead of bullets. It would be just as fast. You react to the shots by seeing Fox pick up his blaster really quick, the shots themselves still move as fast as a bullet in the game probably would. And for the record you can barely see Sheik's darts, so the visibility thing isn't a big issue, either. So in that regard, I agree with you Track. And this is coming from someone who thinks Melee is the greatest game ever (just my opinion, don't want to start a new war here). So like Fox's gun the bullets hit you but cause only 1% damage and do zero knockback? That seems pretty weird for bullets. Sheik's darts are another issue, yes they travel fast, but they are not rapid fire. And unless you are involved with something else you can easily get out of the way before she cocks back and lets another one fly, not so much with fully automatic sub machine gun or a semi-automatic sidearm. And to be able to put someone alseep with a tranq gun would screw anyone trying to get back to the edge as ANY attack can be timed to perfection (Hello Jigglypuff's insta kill). Get the timing down and you can tag ANYONE trying to get back to the edge with their Up+B or Side+B and air dodge just gurantees you falling to your death.

But hey what am I talking about. I'm just making excuses for Nintendo kiddifying Snake its not like I know the game mechanics, besides there is no depth to this cartoony game anyway. :rolleyes:

[Kamalot]

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x100/Ksmitty99/snake_070921g-l1.jpg
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x100/Ksmitty99/snake_070921b1.jpg
Man that is one Tom and Jerry looking bazooka right there.

Duh. That's the same plastic-toy bazooka that all the kids on the playground are playing with these days. Obviously Nintendo is only tapping into the 'recess playground hardcore' with this title. I mean, only kids actually know who this Snake guy is anyways.

Come on people! 0_o