TGS 07: Joystiq Hands-On with NIGHTS

[Dr.Finger]

The Wii-only sequel to a beloved Sega Saturn game. What could go wrong (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/09/20/joystiq-hands-on-nights-journey-of-dreams/). Oh.
Bizarrely, tellingly and somewhat amusingly, the Tokyo Game Show demo of NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams makes no use of motion controls whatsoever. The analog stick on the nunchuck controls movement, the A-button speeds you up and.... well, that's pretty much it. While several control schemes are likely to be in the works for the completed game, the lack of Wii-specific abilities seems to worsen the lack of differentiation between NiGHTS and its sequel.They say the game is still fluid and graceful, almost balletic. But no Wii-specific controls at this late stage? Bizarre. Bizarre and disappointing.

[Kamalot]

As long as it is a good game, I don't care if it utilizes motion controls or not.

[torrefaction]

I find it hard to imagine that a game on the Wii with no motion controls could have all that much depth.

But we'll see.

[oldjadedgamer]

It's from the same director from the Sonic/Shadow Adventure series. I'll wait for the reviews on this one.

[EternalGamer]

I find it hard to imagine that a game on the Wii with no motion controls could have all that much depth.

But we'll see.

That's funny because I feel exactly the opposite. When I hear "motion controls," I immediately associate that with a lack of precision and nuance. I've yet to play a game that makes me feel otherwise on Wii or PS3.

[torrefaction]

That's funny because I feel exactly the opposite. When I hear "motion controls," I immediately associate that with a lack of precision and nuance. I've yet to play a game that makes me feel otherwise on Wii or PS3.

My issue is the Wii controller isn't really built to have any depth without the use of motion controls. There's just not enough damn buttons!

I'm somewhat with you here, although I had some GREAT fun with Heatseeker, and I think MP3 changed the playing field a bit as well.

[LiquidRain]

That's funny because I feel exactly the opposite. When I hear "motion controls," I immediately associate that with a lack of precision and nuance.
Play Metroid Prime 3. Your opinion will change within 30 minutes of using the advanced controls.

[Kamalot]

My issue is the Wii controller isn't really built to have any depth without the use of motion controls. There's just not enough damn buttons!

Buttons = Depth?

[torrefaction]

Buttons = Depth?

Buttons = Options for movements/actions. Motion controls offer an alternative to that. Not having those makes me concerned that you don't do all that much but fly around. Like I said, I find it hard to imagine, but I also said we'll see. Game developers can be creative sunsabitches.

[Yellowman]

It's got optional pointer controls, just not on the build they were trying. At least thats what I heard from my Nintard source, Deep Motion.

[EternalGamer]

Buttons = Options for movements/actions. Motion controls offer an alternative to that. Not having those makes me concerned that you don't do all that much but fly around. Like I said, I find it hard to imagine, but I also said we'll see. Game developers can be creative sunsabitches.

I sort of disagree with this. I think buttons are actually a more shallow form of interaction a lot of the time. For example, I've been playing Skate the last few days and it uses far less buttons than Tony Hawk (basically a "pump" button, the shoulder buttons and analog sticks). However since everything is timing and context, it actually has way more depth than THPS. In Tony Hawk, you press a button to manual, in Skate, you subtly shift your weight on the board.

However with a game like NiGHTS, the depth comes from the level design more than the play mechanics. I don't know if you've played the Saturn original, but it doesn't need a lot of buttons. It basically uses 1 button and it works the better for it.

[Klunka]

Buttons = Depth?

http://www.computercloset.org/AtariJaguarPad.jpg

Nuff Said

[menage]

So it's up to Mario to convince. I think a lot of people are going to be dissappointed, even if it's a great game. The Wii transitional period is going to take a bit longer for 3RD party's I think.

[Deadend]

http://www.computercloset.org/AtariJaguarPad.jpg

Nuff Said

Wrong.

3 buttons that you can hit, and 12 that are quite difficult to hit.

[torrefaction]

I sort of disagree with this. I think buttons are actually a more shallow form of interaction a lot of the time. For example, I've been playing Skate the last few days and it uses far less buttons than Tony Hawk (basically a "pump" button, the shoulder buttons and analog sticks). However since everything is timing and context, it actually has way more depth than THPS. In Tony Hawk, you press a button to manual, in Skate, you subtly shift your weight on the board.

However with a game like NiGHTS, the depth comes from the level design more than the play mechanics. I don't know if you've played the Saturn original, but it doesn't need a lot of buttons. It basically uses 1 button and it works the better for it.

I never did play the Saturn version, which is probably why it's hard for me to imagine.

But your arguments about Skate are almost exactly what I'm talking about really. Controls give developers options. Analog sticks are "buttons" in my eyes, and they are used properly, in a meaningful way. But you also need to use modifiers to do any tricks. SKATE is a great example of a game that fully utilizes buttons and analog controls in a deep and meaningful way.

The equivalent of analog controls on the Wii is the motion sensors. And according to the article (but conflicted by someone in the thread), they aren't even used.

[Kamalot]

The equivalent of analog controls on the Wii is the motion sensors. And according to the article, they aren't even used.

Well, Nights isn't Skate. The Saturn original was built around the Saturn analog controller (I think it was even packaged with Nights). So far as this title is concerned, the equivalent of analog controls on the Wii is the analog joystick on Wii.

Edit: "They say the game is still fluid and graceful, almost balletic" I fail to see any problems with this. Imagine a DS game that does not utilize the touch screen or microphone. Same difference as a Wii game that does not utilize any motion controls.

In fact, Fire Emblem for Wii is reported to not use ANY motion-sensitive controls. If the game works, and it is a good game, there's no problem.

[torrefaction]

Well, Nights isn't Skate. The Saturn original was built around the Saturn analog controller (I think it was even packaged with Nights). So far as this title is concerned, the equivalent of analog controls on the Wii is the analog joystick on Wii.

Yeah, if you guys that played it say it'll work fine, I'll take you at your word. I never did, so it's hard for me to have perspective, I guess. All I know is I've heard great things about the original

[EternalGamer]

I never did play the Saturn version, which is probably why it's hard for me to imagine.

.


If we were talking about a FPS, I'd understand where you are coming from since the Wii is obviously at a disadvantage w/o 2 analog sticks. However, NiGHTS is more like a racing game where the depth and strategy comes from the "racing line" you chose to take and how you chain together combos.

It's a pretty unique game. Imagine a 2.5D Sonic where the focus is more on continuing to grab rings and bounce off enemies in quick succession to keep combos going. The levels in NiGHTS all loop around and the goal is to fly through them as fast and as many times as possible with large a combo multipliers. You need basicaly 2 buttons in NiGHTS: a "speed dash" button and a "trick" button.

The game is so fast that I'd much more comfortable with the idea of controlling it with an analog stick as opposed to directing the main character via motion controls. I can't imagine that would do anything but break the game given how fast and precise it is.

[Kamalot]

If we were talking about a FPS, I'd understand where you are coming from since the Wii is obviously at a disadvantage w/o 2 analog sticks.

I'll disagree with you on this one.

The on-screen pointer makes playing FPS titles on Wii better than using dual-analog sticks.

[Evil Avnovice]

But no Wii-specific controls at this late stage? Bizarre. Bizarre and disappointing.

No it isn't. If Sega decides NiGHTS works better without it, they don't need to include any.

[EternalGamer]

I'll disagree with you on this one.

The on-screen pointer makes playing FPS titles on Wii better than using dual-analog sticks.

Yeah, well, I've yet to see it work better. MP3 makes it competent, but I'm pretty certain that if you were playing with your Wii waggle and I had dual analog the score would end up about 10:1 in my favor. While you are busying trying to turn with your little onscreen reticule, I'll circle strafe and melee you in the back of the head simultaneously.

[Yellowman]

Yeah, well, I've yet to see it work better. MP3 makes it competent, but I'm pretty certain that if you were playing with your Wii waggle and I had dual analog the score would end up about 10:1 in my favor. While you are busying trying to turn with your little onscreen reticule, I'll circle strafe and melee you in the back of the head simultaneously.

Lol mate. Maybe you are good with analog sticks but personally I kick ass with the
Wiimote comparatively.

[Skyelan]

Yeah, this is REALLY reaching. We hate it when Wii games have crappy motion controls shoved in unjustly, now that a developer is focusing on NOT doing that, it's a bad thing? Riiight.

Yeah, well, I've yet to see it work better. MP3 makes it competent, but I'm pretty certain that if you were playing with your Wii waggle and I had dual analog the score would end up about 10:1 in my favor.

Okay, come on, there's genuinely not yet seeing, and then there's just acting like you have a severe case of denial.

Mass majority of reviewers and gamers who've played it didn't just wake up one day after being pissed at FPS games on the Wii since launch and go 'Hmm, we'll just shower unjust praise on this one', then fool themselves into thinking a near unanimous vote that it is superior to dual analogue. It is.

You could not, and this is something I say with absolutely certainty and would bet money on, do the kinds of boss battles Metroid had with human-size targets constantly moving accross sky as well as ground, and still accurately keep them in your sights, with dual analogue. I would love, absolutely ADORE, trying to see someone do the Gandreyda fight with dual analogue.

[Ferong]

The motion controls in the Wii are mostly atrocious. Most games up to this point have done nothing but highlight the inherent flaws with the hardware.

I'm glad that someone, somewhere realized that motion controls aren't a one-size-fits-all approach to making a game fun.

[Bydo_Empire]

As long as it is a good game, I don't care if it utilizes motion controls or not.Amen to that. I just want it to be fun, and given Sega's less-than-stellar track record lately I'm trying not to get my hopes up (though I am excited). Every Wii game doesn't HAVE to have motion controls.

For those who aren't convinced motion controls can make a game better, try Godfather. The combat feels tight, intuitive, immersive and fun. They did a fantastic job w/ it. I had no interest in the game on ps2/xbox, but playing it on the Wii is a blast and completely sold me on the game. Granted, it seems that only 1 in 10 games "get it" but the potential is still there.

[handsalad]

http://www.computercloset.org/AtariJaguarPad.jpg

Nuff Said


http://xboxflickan.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/chatpad.jpg

[EternalGamer]

Yeah, this is REALLY reaching. We hate it when Wii games have crappy motion controls shoved in unjustly, now that a developer is focusing on NOT doing that, it's a bad thing? Riiight.



Okay, come on, there's genuinely not yet seeing, and then there's just acting like you have a severe case of denial.

Mass majority of reviewers and gamers who've played it didn't just wake up one day after being pissed at FPS games on the Wii since launch and go 'Hmm, we'll just shower unjust praise on this one', then fool themselves into thinking a near unanimous vote that it is superior to dual analogue. It is.

You could not, and this is something I say with absolutely certainty and would bet money on, do the kinds of boss battles Metroid had with human-size targets constantly moving accross sky as well as ground, and still accurately keep them in your sights, with dual analogue. I would love, absolutely ADORE, trying to see someone do the Gandreyda fight with dual analogue.

I never said Prime 3 didn't work at all. It works well enough for what it is. But outside of IGN's hyperbolizing calling it the "best FPS ever," I don't recall anyone else stating it was better than standard Dualstick controls.

Personally, I think I'm being pretty charitable to it. I've only played it a couple of hours myself, and, if I were to go with my own opinion of the controls in it alone, I'd say it is far, far worse than standard controls. I'm assuming it will get easier, if I ever have enough drive to force myself to keep playing. Having so many other great FPS type games available right now that don't require me to go through this type of learning curve makes it hard to force myself to invest that time.

[Klunka]

http://xboxflickan.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/chatpad.jpg

I admit when I am defeated.

Well played sir, well played

[bapenguin]

That's odd. The demo I saw at E3 used the motion controls.

[McNinja]

On topic: If it uses the Wiimote effectively, I want it. Otherwise, don't bother. I don't recall Nights needing more than a couple of buttons, so I don't really care about waggle. Also, I seem to recall a Game|Life article (it MAY have been written somewhere else) that said that other schemes were also in the process of being implemented in the game, they just weren't playable at TGS? I'm searching like mad for it.

Off topic: I own Metroid 3 Corruption and the controls are more responsive and intuitive than any shooter for the PS2/3 or Xbox/360 that I can think of or own. In no way are they "far, far, worse than standard controls". I shudder to think of the utter RUIN that I could bring to the unwashed masses on Live using the Wii control scheme with Halo 3. It's gonna be rough just using my standard 360 controller.

[McNinja]

OK, found it: here it is (http://wii.ign.com/articles/821/821514p1.html).

I hear that the game will have many control schemes, including Classic Controller support as well as one that uses the Wii Remote's pointing function, but at TGS it was Nunchuk/Remote exclusively.

That is Craig Harris, not Matt Casamassina.

[ElPresidente]

That's funny because I feel exactly the opposite. When I hear "motion controls," I immediately associate that with a lack of precision and nuance. I've yet to play a game that makes me feel otherwise on Wii or PS3.

Agreed.

My interest in a game increases when I hear it ISN'T using motion controls.

I was greatly relieved when I picked up Super Paper Mario yesterday (only just released in Australia - pick your game up Nintendo) to discover motion control was minimal.

[EternalGamer]

Off topic: I own Metroid 3 Corruption and the controls are more responsive and intuitive than any shooter for the PS2/3 or Xbox/360 that I can think of or own. In no way are they "far, far, worse than standard controls". I shudder to think of the utter RUIN that I could bring to the unwashed masses on Live using the Wii control scheme with Halo 3. It's gonna be rough just using my standard 360 controller.


That's why I put the qualifier on it when I said I was making that judgment having only played a few hours. But I don know I haven't been frustrated like this with game controls since I was first learning mouse look type controls with Turok 1 on the N64. Perhaps it is just a sign of my becoming set in my ways and not wanting to change, but quite frankly I didn't NEED anyone to improve on FPS controls. They worked perfectly fine with two analog sticks and will continue to work fine after Prime 3 is long forgotten.

If motion controls are to become truly advantageous (and yes, to be honest, I'm skeptical that they ever will be), I think they have to be applied to completely new control schemes, not slapped onto preexisting ones, no matter how much they attempt to "refine" them. Those traditional control schemes have evolved over decades now and have been conceptually evolving with traditional control mechanisms in mind.

[Venkman]

I never said Prime 3 didn't work at all. It works well enough for what it is. But outside of IGN's hyperbolizing calling it the "best FPS ever," I don't recall anyone else stating it was better than standard Dualstick controls.

Gametrailers called it the best FPS controls in any game, on any console. I like their reviews. In the ones I've seen, they seem to be approaching their reviews from an enthusiast's stand point- with lots of "if you like game "A", you will also like game "B".

That's a good review to me. A real comparison that takes personal taste into account.

[Yeti]

I still prefer dual analog over Wiimote for FPS's, yes, I have played MP3 and love it but honestly prefer DA. The wrist fatigue is a killer too imo.

Diff'rent strokes and all that.

Anyways, I don't care if NiGHTS has a motion sensing in or not so long as the game is a great one and lives upto my beloved NiGHTS into dreams.

Also please please have a soundtrack that matches (prays big time).

[Ravenlock]

That's why I put the qualifier on it when I said I was making that judgment having only played a few hours. But I don know I haven't been frustrated like this with game controls since I was first learning mouse look type controls with Turok 1 on the N64. Perhaps it is just a sign of my becoming set in my ways and not wanting to change, but quite frankly I didn't NEED anyone to improve on FPS controls. They worked perfectly fine with two analog sticks and will continue to work fine after Prime 3 is long forgotten.
I find it really amusing that there's a subset of the gaming population that thinks that dual-analog controls are desirable controls for a FPS. I can only presume they didn't start out FPS'ing on a PC. Dual analog controls are an acceptable hack - an attempt to replicate the computer FPS setup of WASD + mouse on the "standard" (that is to say, what became the standard after N64 and Goldeneye introduced tolerable analog-stick FPS control) console controller. But between WASD + mouse and dual-analog, there's no comparison. The computer setup has always been faster, more precise, and more intuitive.

What the Wiimote does is take the console FPS one step closer to the PC control scheme. It isn't perfect yet - turning speed is still slightly slower than it would need to be for competitive play - but in terms of rapid precision on the screen, it's a huge step in the right direction. And I think it'll get better - Red Steel was mediocre, Call of Duty 3 was better, Metroid Prime 3 got it almost perfect, and Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 is supposed to be as good or better than MP3, plus internet multiplayer. I'm looking forward to that.

But yeah, pretending that the Wii FPS scheme is an attempt to "improve" on some "dual-analog standard" is kind of laughable. Dual-analog was an attempt to emulate a far better control scheme that the Wiimote is finally taking console FPS's back towards.

[EternalGamer]

I'm certainly not unaware of mouselook controls, but as primarily a console gamer, I also know that putting a keyboard and mouse on your lap is not very feasible. In my opinion, the Wii-mote controls, while perhaps a step forward in terms of accuracy (but I still find that a bit debatable), is a pretty big step backwards comfort wise.

[Rafer]

I was going to post this in the Lair thread below, but anyway... I think Metroid Prime 3 works because it makes minimal use of motion controls. Really the only time you use it in combat is with the grapple, and that's one of the most awkward parts of the game, you just z target and jiggle your left hand in any direction. Outside of combat (from what I've played of the game) the only other times you use motion controls is for working pistons and the like, which is kinda amusing but isn't central the game.

I love the pointer but I think people over attribute a lot of Wii gameplay to motion controls, and I'm disappointed NiGHTS isn't incorporating the pointer into gameplay, but I guess I'll wait and see.

[EternalGamer]

You must be playing with the basic controls in Prime 3 rather than the "advanced" controls. I'm thinking about switching back to those myself.

[Kamalot]

I'm certainly not unaware of mouselook controls, but as primarily a console gamer, I also know that putting a keyboard and mouse on your lap is not very feasible. In my opinion, the Wii-mote controls, while perhaps a step forward in terms of accuracy (but I still find that a bit debatable), is a pretty big step backwards comfort wise.I play with the Wii remote in my lap and just point using my wrist. What kind of setup do you have where you are uncomfortable playing Wii?

[Ravenlock]

I play with the Wii remote in my lap and just point using my wrist. What kind of setup do you have where you are uncomfortable playing Wii?

Ditto that - I find MP3 perfectly comfortable to play, even in long sessions. Same with Godfather: Blackhand, which uses a similar control scheme. Rest hands in lap, orient lap towards screen, play. Same as with a normal gamepad but with pointing.

I should clarify after reading Rafer's post though that I agree - the pointer is the big huge benefit of the Wiimote in terms of FPS. Motion control adds very little to MP3 - it's fun, but I can't necessarily claim it's MORE fun than just pushing a button.

What's strange about the motion controls on the Wii is that they can be done well and provide a suitable alternative to button mashing - I found the "waggle attack" in Zelda: TP to be a fine control method, and it works similarly well in Marvel: UA and Mario: Strikers. In Mario Strikers it actually is an improvement IMO because it's very satisfying to have a physical connection in knocking into the other players. (Godfather Blackhand is similarly satisfying for more disturbing reasons.) But then there's games like Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End where the motion controls are completely unusable, or the "motion actions" in Call of Duty 3 that might've been neat but never recognized properly. Or Metal Slug where you have to jerk the Wiimote like a madman to throw a grenade.

I think the bottom line on motion controls is that they're obviously difficult to program and calibrate correctly. When it's done well, I enjoy them and they're no worse than a gamepad button, sometimes better. When it's done poorly, though, it can RUIN an otherwise good game, and that's a shame. If motion control isn't working out for your Wii game, developers, DON'T USE IT. It took DS devs a long time to figure out they could just not use the touch screen if it didn't add to their game. Hopefully Wii devs will eventually realize the same for motion controls. Why Metal Slug didn't include a Classic Controller scheme, I'll never understand.

So all in all, I'd rather get NiGHTS with no motion control whatsoever than have it ruined by BAD motion control. If they can make something awesome happen with the Wiimote, super. I certainly would have thought it'd be their primary focus. But if they just deliver a solid title that doesn't use it, that's okay by me.

[Adam Blue]

They say the game is still fluid and graceful, almost balletic. But no Wii-specific controls at this late stage? Bizarre. Bizarre and disappointing.

Considering the original title used analog controls, I don't see what would be so bizarre about this. Even being on the Wii, it doesn't always need motion controls. I'm pretty sure they were wanting the market here.

[Shodan2020]

It's from the same director from the Sonic/Shadow Adventure series. I'll wait for the reviews on this one.

No Yuji Naka?

[card930]

Maybe motion controls just aren't appropriate for the game.

[LiquidRain]

You must be playing with the basic controls in Prime 3 rather than the "advanced" controls. I'm thinking about switching back to those myself.
Advanced == required use. Lock on/free aim is a preference (debatably free aim lets you do more, but I prefer the lock on ease of use), but you MUST MUST MUUUUUST use advanced. This is where the "better than dual analog" argument comes alive. I'd prefer dual analog to the basic/regular control schemes of Prime 3, but advanced eats dual analog alive in my opinion.

No Yuji Naka?
Naka formed his own studio that's at arm's length from Sega. (I believe he receives funding from Sega but retains full control over what games he makes)

[BlackPete]

Advanced == required use. Lock on/free aim is a preference (debatably free aim lets you do more, but I prefer the lock on ease of use), but you MUST MUST MUUUUUST use advanced. This is where the "better than dual analog" argument comes alive. I'd prefer dual analog to the basic/regular control schemes of Prime 3, but advanced eats dual analog alive in my opinion.

This.

I honestly found that the "far worse than dual analog" argument completely laughable. I mean, if you want to aim and shoot at something, then point at it. How the hell do you get more accurate than that with DA?!

EDIT: Sorry, that came across stronger than intended and I didn't mean to sound harsh/rude. No offense intended, EternalGamer :) I was genuinely surprised! I was also thinking about a review I'd recently read that bashed RE4 for being too easy to play whereas the GC version was harder due to lack of pointer control

[torrefaction]

I'll have to agree with everyone that as far as snappy controls go, it's significantly better than dual analog. It does to some extent approach the level of precision that you can achieve with KBM.

But I'm still not a big fan of it for marathon sessions, personally.

[roboninja]

I would not call it disappointing. Some people see the Wii as a one-trick pony, and making every game use the motion controls would only reinforce that idea. It is like saying all 360 games should be 3D to use that systems abilities to their best.

[EternalGamer]

This.

I honestly found that the "far worse than dual analog" argument completely laughable. I mean, if you want to aim and shoot at something, then point at it. How the hell do you get more accurate than that with DA?!

EDIT: Sorry, that came across stronger than intended and I didn't mean to sound harsh/rude. No offense intended, EternalGamer :) I was genuinely surprised! I was also thinking about a review I'd recently read that bashed RE4 for being too easy to play whereas the GC version was harder due to lack of pointer control

It's not the aiming that is the problem. It is moving the view in intense firefights.