Bioshock Dev Defends Factor 5 and Lair

[Kamalot]

Susan Arendt of Wired's Game|Life column reports of a recent podcast with Ken Levine of Bioshock fame. Ken thinks we should cut Factor 5 some slack (http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/09/bioshock-develo.html) for the tippy-tilty control scheme in the PLAYSTATION 3 title, Lair. He suggests that the crux of the problem probably lies with whoever forced Factor 5 to only use motion-based controls for the game, and that Factor 5 isn't really to blame for the results.
During a Gamers With Jobs podcast, Levine said that it was likely that Sony essentially forced Factor 5 to go with motion controls whether they really wanted to or not:

Let me speak in these guys' defense for a minute as a game developer. I'm sure somebody came to them at some point and said, 'We have this motion control controller, and we have to make a go of it. And we really think you should try to make your game exclusively on that.'While the title of the Wired article is, "BioShock Developer Defends Lair's Controls", it sounds like he's defending Factor 5, and not the final control scheme.

[laggerific]

That's been my belief too...what's sad is that Factor 5 needs to keep defending that situation, while they shouldn't be taking the blame for another misstep by Sony...Sony is batting like 27 for 4860 this gen...

[Mortis]

Even if they were forced to make it with motion control only it's their job to create a game that controls well with that control scheme. From what I have read they failed to do that. I have also read that other developers have made good use of motion control on the PS3. So yeah, they are the ones to blame for the results.

[flinxz]

They are definitely going overboard with what he said. The quote is pretty much the lot of it. The comment was very casual and honest.

I got a mention in that podcast for a contest, woot!:p

[TrackZero]

Yeah, whether or not the control scheme was forced on them, it still didn't turn out so well. But it's nice to see a fellow developer asking the rest of us to give them a break over it, as I'm sure things like this come down the pipe to all them doing this type of work, and it's got to be a dangerous issue to deal with.

[Kamalot]

Yeah, whether or not the control scheme was forced on them, it still didn't turn out so well. But it's nice to see a fellow developer asking the rest of us to give them a break over it, as I'm sure things like this come down the pipe to all them doing this type of work, and it's got to be a dangerous issue to deal with.

I bet someone came to the Bioshock team and said, "We have this idea of your game really kicking ass and making a lot of money, and we really think you should try to make your game do that." :D

[Adam Blue]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of us have been saying that all this time. But I guess it shows the side of the gaming community that lives in denial until a respected dev happens to say the same damn thing.

[torrefaction]

I bet someone came to the Bioshock team and said, "We have this idea of your game really kicking ass and making a lot of money, and we really think you should try to make your game do that." :D

They did a damn good job, if that's what went down. ;)

[Pluvious]

The truth is the motion control 'feature' is a gimmick and was forced to be in the game by Sony to help push this ridiculous answer to the Wii control.

[Yellowman]

In his opinion, nothing but Wii Sports has pulled off motion controls in a satisfactory way: "Aren't there a lot of games where you're just like, 'Dude, can I just use the d-pad or the analog stick?"

Hate to be a nintard but...
Metroid Prime 3... Resident Evil 4?

[The Continental]

The truth is the motion control 'feature' is a gimmick and was forced to be in the game by Sony to help push this ridiculous answer to the Wii control.That's entirely the truth, why else force users to use a control scheme the studio head came right out said he can only execute perfectly 80% of the time? The smart thing to do would be to give users the choice to use motion sensitive controls, much the way you can disable rumble in oh... every game that has rumble. You better believe Sony pushed Sixaxis something fierce. It just sucks that Factor 5 is jerks and shot their mouths off, otherwise we'd be blaming Sony and not them.

[DaXIthR]

Levine sticking up for a bad game and bad game design makes him look like an idiot. He's completely ignoring the framerate issues Lair has. Someone (at Sony or Factor 5) should get credit for the people not making a stink about that.

And Eggebrecht being the asshole that he is, isn't helping the situation. He's not worth defending.

What if Factor 5 said to Sony, "No, we're not doing your stupid motion control song and dance"? Sony would have denied them the right to develop the game?

Big deal...that sounds like great effing news. The world could do with less Lairs.

(Though I admit, if Factor 5 did blow off Sony, they would have made a dual-analog game for the 360 or a better motion control one for the Wii. Either way, everyone would have been better off.)

[digitalErich]

Since Factor 5 isn't owned by Sony, I have a hard time believing anything was forced on them. Sure, there might have been some really nice incentives, but it was still ultimately up to Factor 5 to implement the control scheme in a fun way.

Maybe I'd feel differently if Eggebrecht hadn't said what he'd said.

[Kamalot]

Levine sticking up for a bad game and bad game design makes him look like an idiot. He's completely ignoring the framerate issues Lair has. Someone (at Sony or Factor 5) should get credit for the people not making a stink about that.

Actually, I think he was specifically referring to the controls, not the entire game. I could be mistaken though.

[Itchyeyes]

Levine sticking up for a bad game and bad game design makes him look like an idiot. He's completely ignoring the framerate issues Lair has. Someone (at Sony or Factor 5) should get credit for the people not making a stink about that.
Spouting off about how Levine looks like an idiot without actually listening to the podcast makes you look like an idiot. He in no way says that Lair is a good game.

[torrefaction]

Spouting off about how Levine looks like an idiot without actually listening to the podcast makes you look like an idiot. He in no way says that Lair is a good game.

Hah. Calling Levine an idiot immediately makes you a complete failure.

Hell, if I was a mod, that level of ignorance would get a ban.

[captainstrombosis]

The controls are just fine once you get used to them. Of course I'll be bitched at and all that shit, but I had to say it.

On top of that, I think it's great that Ken is sticking up for them.

[Karmakin]

Hate to be a nintard but...
Metroid Prime 3... Resident Evil 4?

Pointing is not motion control. Although I thought the motion control in MP3 was well done where it was used, and really added to the experience, I understand the point of the whole thing. It really is rarely used right. I also like tilting for camera angles. I dunno why, I just think it works. RE4 only had a little bit of motion control, which I barely used, except for the quick action scenes, which DID work well.

The Wii will shine when best practices for using the damn thing come to light. We're getting close to that point, but frankly that the first generation of games was pretty much a wash doesn't surprise me. The DS really was the same way.

BTW. Pointing alone makes the Wiimote a success. Pointing is fun fun fun.

[Karmakin]

But back on topic, the comments regarding Warhawk made by the head of Level 5 seemed too cute by half, but I'll still stick with my feeling that he was actually talking about his own game being "forced" to have those controls, and he was pissed that Incognito wasn't forced to do it for Warhawk. Which goes in with what Levine was saying here. Lair was supposed to be shining jewel for the 6axis controller, everything else was secondary.

I'd be pissed too, to be honest.

[Kamalot]

Pointing alone makes the Wiimote a success. Pointing is fun fun fun.

More true words have not been spoken. Wii's on-screen pointer is probably the best thing to happen to video games in a long, long time.

[torrefaction]

More true words have not been spoken. Wii's on-screen pointer is probably the best thing to happen to video games in a long, long time.

I'd agree. Even though I've already stated I'm not a huge fan of it for marathon sessions, MP3 is a metric fuckton of fun to shoot at people in.

[DaXIthR]

He in no way says that Lair is a good game.

Should have spent an extra ten minutes reading the post instead of just quoting it....

Ten minutes is enough time for you, right?

[Itchyeyes]

Hate to be a nintard but...
Metroid Prime 3... Resident Evil 4?
They bring up MP3 in the podcast and Levine confesses that he has not played it yet. I'm pretty sure he would consider RE4 as a game that didn't really merit motion controls since it was already an amazing game on two other platforms without them. He's specifically talking about games that utilize motion controls in a completely original way, not just as an adequate control mechanism that mimic dual analog.

[torrefaction]

Should have spent an extra ten minutes reading the post instead of just quoting it....

Ten minutes is enough time for you, right?

You called Ken Levine an idiot. I don't think you have any room to call people out. At all.

Ever again.

[Itchyeyes]

Should have spent an extra ten minutes reading the post instead of just quoting it....

Ten minutes is enough time for you, right?
Excuse me for paraphrasing. Quibbling over whether or not "sticking up for" is exactly equal to "says is good" doesn't change the fact that you're ranting about how he's an "idiot" based upon a single quote taken out of context from a two hour podcast.

[DaXIthR]

You called Ken Levine an idiot. I don't think you have any room to call people out. At all.

Ever again.

Excuse me for paraphrasing. Quibbling over whether or not "sticking up for" is exactly equal to "says is good" doesn't change the fact that you're ranting about how he's an "idiot" based upon a single quote taken out of context from a two hour podcast.

I guess I'm from a different part of the world where good people can do bad things and vice-versa, and smart people can do dumb things and vice-versa.

Just because Levine said it doesn't make it true. Listen to yourself..you sound as if the man is your mother.

By the way, I don't care who you think I have a right to call out or not, obviously.

And, Itchyeyes...I'll tiptoe through the tulips. The quote, and the half-dozen news articles I've read about this interview since yesterday, all make the Ken Levine seem like an idiot. There. That should make you happy. Perhaps it's all yellow journalism...

[torrefaction]

I guess I'm from a different part of the world where good people can do bad things and vice-versa, and smart people can do dumb things and vice-versa.

Just because Levine said it doesn't make it true. Listen to yourself..you sound as if the man is your mother.

By the way, I don't care who you think I have a right to call out or not, obviously.

And, Itchyeyes...I'll tiptoe through the tulips. The quote, and the half-dozen news articles I've read about this interview since yesterday, all make the Ken Levine seem like an idiot. There. That should make you happy. Perhaps it's all yellow journalism...

I didn't say it was true. I'm saying it didn't make him look like an idiot. I guess I'm from a different part of the world, where the sum of a man's actions is more important than whether or not I agree with a single statement he made.

For instance, I think it's lame that Trent Reznor did an ad for fucking PETA. But never in a thousand years would I call him an idiot.

define:idiot
a person of subnormal intelligence.

*Edit*
From the wiki, to give you a bit of perspective:
Some of the games he has worked on include Thief: The Dark Project, System Shock 2, Tribes: Vengeance, Freedom Force, its sequel Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich, SWAT 4 and BioShock.

[GameFlood Nathan]

More true words have not been spoken. Wii's on-screen pointer is probably the best thing to happen to video games in a long, long time.

The mouse on my computer agrees. Just sayin'. ;)

[Heretic Machine]

From what I've heard, the controls aren't the only problem with Lair.

[DaXIthR]

I didn't say it was true. I'm saying it didn't make him look like an idiot.

Fair enough. There, we disagree.

I guess I'm from a different part of the world, where the sum of a man's actions is more important than whether or not I agree with a single statement he made.

For instance, I think it's lame that Trent Reznor did an ad for fucking PETA. But never in a thousand years would I call him an idiot.

In my part of the world, saying someone acted like an idiot, came across as an idiot or seemed to be an idiot, is not the same as being an idiot. Like I said, a smart person can say dumb things. And that's how I'm diagnosing Levine's podcasted brain fart.

And while we're on the subject, I think only an idiot would do an ad for PETA. I'm not going to say everyone who does an ad for PETA is an idiot except for Trent Reznor, whoever the hell that is.

From what I've heard, the controls aren't the only problem with Lair.

As I said earlier, you heard right.

[dhaelis]

...except for Trent Reznor, whoever the hell that is.

Wow, don't get out much, do ya? ;)

I say that in jest, by the way.

[BlackPete]

More true words have not been spoken. Wii's on-screen pointer is probably the best thing to happen to video games in a long, long time.

Not since the DS touchscreen anyway :D

[cp#]

Probably already been said but..

this doesn't change the fact that the controls suck ass.

[geckokidd]

The controls are just fine once you get used to them. Of course I'll be bitched at and all that shit, but I had to say it.

On top of that, I think it's great that Ken is sticking up for them.


I agree. I just rented Lair to see if the controls are as crappy as everyone is saying and they aren't. It just takes some getting used to.

[Chris_D]

Hmm this quote seems kind of funny on it's own. As someone who listened to the entire podcast, I highly recommend it, it was a great listen! GWJ is probably my favourite video gaming podcast these days. Also Ken had stacks of interesting stuff to say on various things.

[KingGorilla]

I like how one statement, from a completely brilliant, 2 hour guest spot is all anyone talks about. Ken's statements about taking risk in game development, self publishing, his road to success, His failures and disappointments, were so enthralling to listen to. He is one of the few genuine personalities that we have, he speaks openly almost all of the time, and all they can focus on is a point where he plays Devil's Advocate for a fellow Developer? A Developer that made one of the most brilliant series of games ever to grace a console.

This is utter BULLSHIT! Even Bioshock and Ken Levine cannot escape the typhoon of "lol, the 600 dollar Blu-Ray player has shitty games, and was over hyped in 2005."

[donkeydrop]

Somebody should tell Nintendo that it's impossible to make motion controls work.

[donkeydrop]

More true words have not been spoken. Wii's on-screen pointer is probably the best thing to happen to video games in a long, long time.

Except for the all the game genres where it sucks.

[Loganrapp]

Fair enough. There, we disagree.

In my part of the world, saying someone acted like an idiot, came across as an idiot or seemed to be an idiot, is not the same as being an idiot. Like I said, a smart person can say dumb things. And that's how I'm diagnosing Levine's podcasted brain fart.

And while we're on the subject, I think only an idiot would do an ad for PETA. I'm not going to say everyone who does an ad for PETA is an idiot except for Trent Reznor, whoever the hell that is.

As I said earlier, you heard right.

If I had a mute button, I'd use it.

In lieu of that, from this moment forward I'll just respond to similar posts as the above with the following: "Sigh."

I encourage everyone else to do the same.

Gorilla has it right on the nose. GWJ did an excellent interview, and basically y'all are ignoring it to continue with a pointless argument.

[Kamalot]

Except for the all the game genres where it sucks.
Shock upon shock. If a game design does not work well with the on-screen pointer, the developers aren't required to use it. It isn't like Nintendo is going to developers and saying, "We have this on-screen pointer, and we have to make a go of it. And we really think you should try to make your game exclusively on that."

Nintendo is even making games that don't utilize motion controls on point-and-shoot.

If you are going to whine, at least put some thought into your argument.

[Bahamut]

Hah. Calling Levine an idiot immediately makes you a complete failure.

Hell, if I was a mod, that level of ignorance would get a ban.

That's probably why you're not a mod :p

[Strider]

Shock upon shock. If a game design does not work well with the on-screen pointer, the developers aren't required to use it. It isn't like Nintendo is going to developers and saying, "We have this on-screen pointer, and we have to make a go of it. And we really think you should try to make your game exclusively on that."

Nintendo is even making games that don't utilize motion controls on point-and-shoot.

If you are going to whine, at least put some thought into your argument.

I'm sure we aree though there's another problem.

The bigwigs say 'Hey, game xx is making lots of money with motion sentitive controls. WHATEVER you do, you MUST use it'. :cool:

The first year of DS's games seemed like that to me with the touchscreen.

[torrefaction]

That's probably why you're not a mod :p

Hahaha...Probably.

[KingGorilla]

The biggest news coming from that podcast was Bioshock themed Peggle coming to XBLA.

[51|RandoM]

I don't see that as a valid defense. Motion control has been implemented effectively in warhawk and heavenly sword, why not in lair?

[Johan]

Unless someone here knows whether they were somehow forced to utilize motion-controls exclusively, it's hard to pin all the blame on them OR to remove it.

If they had a choice to make motion-control optional, and didn't...they're fools and deserve much of the criticism. If they were highly pressured and had to make it motion-controlled exclusively, then I'd say they deserve some sympathy.

Either way, I don't think what Levine impacts this either way, since he's not providing proof of one or the other in the "forced motion-controls" question.