Proof Hot Coffee is Not a Mod?

[AspectVoid]

Gamespot has an article up that proves that the Hot Coffee Mod (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15/news_6129301.html) is not a mod as Rockstar claims. Wth the use of an Action Replay that can be purchased in any toy store, you can enable the Hot Coffee mod on the PS2 version of San Andreas.

The next screen proved that the PlayStation 2 edition of the game does indeed include a sexually graphic minigame, which plays almost exactly the same as the Hot Coffee mod. It begins inside a bedroom with Denise, wearing a pink thong and a cut-off T-shirt bearing the Rockstar logo, performing fellatio on CJ, who is fully clothed in jeans and a "wife beater" tank top.

Heh, my first news submission and I forgot to link the article. I think this confirms that I should not post news anymore.

[Oddmaker]

*cough* nah you did a good job :)

[Baronen]

I though that was kind of obvious, the file being so small and all. However, I still believe Rockstar's gonna win this. I mean, it isn't possible to play the Hot Coffee-mode without an Action Replay or downloading the "mod", ergo, it requires some sort of modification to be played, which still means Rockstar is innocent, right? It's not available from the get-go, so it isn't their fault, I mean. Or ... something.

[51|RandoM]

I though that was kind of obvious, the file being so small and all. However, I still believe Rockstar's gonna win this. I mean, it isn't possible to play the Hot Coffee-mode without an Action Replay or downloading the "mod", ergo, it requires some sort of modification to be played, which still means Rockstar is innocent, right? It's not available from the get-go, so it isn't their fault, I mean. Or ... something.

I think they'll lose, based upon the fact that the content exists within the game, whether it is easily accessed or not.

Isn't a big deal, just change the rating for the game and be done with it.

Ultimately, you can't be sure that it isn't accessible during normal play unless you plan on sifting all of the code by hand.

[AspectVoid]

I though that was kind of obvious, the file being so small and all. However, I still believe Rockstar's gonna win this. I mean, it isn't possible to play the Hot Coffee-mode without an Action Replay or downloading the "mod", ergo, it requires some sort of modification to be played, which still means Rockstar is innocent, right? It's not available from the get-go, so it isn't their fault, I mean. Or ... something.

Not really. Rockstar's legal problem is that their contract with the ESRB states that they have to disclose the any material in the game, whether its naturally playable or not, if it can affect the rating of the game. By the material being on the disks, it had to be disclosed.

On the publicity side of things, they're problem is that congress and the media is making a huge deal over it. Its Mortal Kombat all over again, except with sex instead of blood. Of course, that means that inside a decade sex minigames will be a normal part of games. Well, that's what happened with the whole blood thing, anyway.

[mister_slim]

At this point, we've seen enough 'locked' content unlocked that Rockstar should have known better.

[KarmaGhost]

Isn't a big deal, just change the rating for the game and be done with it.I'm sure Rockstar doesn't see it that way. Most retailers (*eh-hem*Wal-Mart) won't carry games with an Ao rating.

[MosBen]

Finally, now we can be done with all those people wailing about how this wasn't Rockstar's fault, and it was just the modders, and this is going to be the death of the modding community. Rockstar put this on the disk and they didn't tell the ESRB. That was a mistake.

[Deadend]

Well, Rockstar could get away with it by proving it was more than a simple patch.

Like if it was just code that was commented it or was auto-set to 0 as its chance of happening, then yes, they should get hammered by the ESRB for it as they didn't come out and say it. I haven't tried Hot Coffey yet, because I just havent cared about it, as it's just another poorly done mini-game, whoopty do.

[Rafer]

I wonder if there will be a recall, that's what ea did after a explative filled south park cartoon got left in a tiger woods game...

http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,17393,00.html

[eatme]

A "determined group of hackers"... hehehe...

[Dragos]

Looks like gamespot needs to learn how to actually read statements before launching cheap attempts at getting linked by the media, lame.

[Paranoia]

If modders are at fault, why don't Rockstar persue these so called hackers, just like Itagaki did when his Dead or Alive Volleyball got modded?

[iggy]

It was Rockstar's responsibility to let the ESRB know that it was still possible to do this in the game. As AspectVoid said earlier, Rockstar needs to tell the ESRB everything that is in the game. If they don't, then it is a big "no no" on their part.

I believe that an AO rating would not only get them out of stores like Walmart but it would include stores such as EB, Best Buy, etc. Does anyone know if that's a fact or not?

And if it comes down to a recall...then that's a lot of money thrown down the drain...

[GrinR]

It's not enough to cut off the filthy shame-stick, one must also sear the flesh where it once was - only then can one be pure.

[Phhhh]

I think it's kind of sad that a sex minigame is deemed as morally worse than the other content in the game.

I mean sure, you can have run over people, steal their vehicles and do other random acts of violence (which is super fun btw ^_^) but if you have a sex scene in the game it's Adults only? How is violence not worse than sex?

[Beelzebud]

Why is violence perfectly acceptable, but not sex?

It just seems so stupid to me that people are getting worked up about this. You can shoot down helicopters with a rocket launcher, and chainsaw old ladies to death. Who gives a crap if you can have sex too.

The game is rated M.

[Crabby]

People, people, people, the answer is so simple.

The fight against violence was lost just like it was for TV and movies. Sex is just the next item on the list.

[KDups]

Looks like gamespot needs to learn how to actually read statements before launching cheap attempts at getting linked by the media, lame.

What's this now?

[Hellstorm]

The ESRB really doesn't have an teeth. They exist solely to avoid governmental restrictions being instituted. Nothing more. The ESRB is completely and totally funded by the companies that submit games to them and submittal is NOT mandatory and as far as I know, Nintendo, Sony and MS will still let you publish a game without an ESRB rating although they many stress that your game should be submitted for rating.

In the end we are are one step closer to having a version of the Comics Code Authority being implented in the video game industry. I don't want that, but Rock* shouldn't have been stupid and not followed the rules of the ESRB and now try and deny that it exists. In the end, not only does Rock* make themselves look bad, but the entire industry look bad as well.

Should the ESRB have teeth, Rock* should be hit with a huge fine for not giving fully disclosing what was on the disk and an aditional fine for lying about it. I have no doubts some heads will roll at Take 2 as well as at the ESRB.

[DCJoeDog]

To all the folks saying R* is innocent, explain to me how a modder can make all the lines of VA,nude models,new scripting and etc, in a 1.5 megs file?

You can't, R* had it in there to begin with, the modder ONLY unlocked it is all, but it was in there to begin with.

[Heretic Machine]

Finally, now we can be done with all those people wailing about how this wasn't Rockstar's fault, and it was just the modders, and this is going to be the death of the modding community. Rockstar put this on the disk and they didn't tell the ESRB. That was a mistake.

This doesn't change anything... Action Replay is just a device used to mod games that play on systems without hard-drives. This is still modding.

[Heretic Machine]

You can't, R* had it in there to begin with, the modder ONLY unlocked it is all, but it was in there to begin with.

Which isn't relavent, because it was inaccessable. The only thing that was on the disk was junk code, and that's all it could ever be until a modder unlocked it.

[DCJoeDog]

Don't get me wrong, I long bought this game and am enjoying it fully, I don't even have this mod on cuz, well it's kinda stupid. But R* should have deleted the code, but maybe that would have broken the game.

[DannoHung]

If modders are at fault, why don't Rockstar persue these so called hackers, just like Itagaki did when his Dead or Alive Volleyball got modded?

In DOA's case, the files that provided the sexually explicit version of the game, that is to say, the bitmaps exposing the girls' naughty parts, were not included with the game itself. They were fan created bitmaps put onto XBox hard drived and then hacked into the game.

Here, we have content that Rockstar created and shipped on the discs that were unlocked by easter egg hunters.

This is important to everyone interested in the industry because if Congress decides that the industry and retailers are ineffective at doing the job legislation may come down the line to restrict stuff or levy fines.

While there's no guarantee that there would be a "chilling effect", that's what the fear is (also, they might throw some extra bullcrap into a bill that they'd ramrod through Congress in an effort to "protect the children").

[LilAbner]

Who gives a shit if the games becomes AO? Kids shouldn't be playing the game anyway....and any parent that lets their kid play it is an idiot.

The game will sell regardless of its rating.

[Wonka]

I no longer fear a chilling effect like happened to comics. 15 years ago, that was something I would worry about but not today. Adults are already playing games in droves (many in their 30s thru their 40s). It's just the gen. above the 30-40 year olds (the gen that are in the senate and house right now meaning 50+ years old), that does NOT play games and is completely out of touch with gamer culture.

Rockstar could get the rating changed from this. So what? I know that I would run out to buy a copy that had the AO rating slapped onto the side. Meanwhile I imagine that the M rated copies would also sell for collection purposes. That would make it likely the best selling AO game ever (and I think also the 1st AO game ever sold) Wouldn't you want to own a piece of history like that??? I know that I would.

[Groo]

You could play this game for a million years, and there is no way you would ever see this content. Why? Because it isn't part of the game: it requires external modification to unlock.

[Talanvor]

Heh. Walmart would make an acception for any GTA game. It's guaranteed to sell massively. Walmart's moral fiber is only allowed to wander out when it's bottom line won't be damaged.

Personally I think R* should say screw it, unlock and polish the sex minigame and get it rated AO. It could be GTA: San Andreas GOTY edition or whatever.

I'm a little curious as to why they left it out actually. God of War has it's own sex minigame, but it came out later so... eh. I don't care honestly. I haven't played SA yet, but I plan to since I enjoyed GTA3 and VC. I'm not even going to bother to unlock the mod either. If I want to see people having sex, I'll watch porn thankyouVERYmuch.

[RMan]

Ehh, I think it was fairly transparently a marketing stunt, they certainly intended it to be part of the game, and to surface well after the game's release. They knew it was a violation of ESRB's ratings, but unless the government smacks them somehow, they'll likely be fined no more than $50K, which wouldn’t hold a candle to any one week of their marketing budget. It may, unfortunately, greatly underscore the toothlessness of the ESRB and make things tougher for the rest of the industry. Sad, because the thing itself really isn’t that big of a deal.

And if you think an AO rating wouldn’t have hurt, well, I think you’re very wrong. It may knock it out of wal-mart, which is a big hit in the wallet for any game, and may affect it’s penetration with other retailers (though likely not Gamestop, or other specialty stores). I think they’d have lied as many times as it took to the ESRB to avoid that rating.

[Hijinx]

I'm sure Rockstar doesn't see it that way. Most retailers (*eh-hem*Wal-Mart) won't carry games with an Ao rating.


The only retailers that carry AO games are the kind that have autograph signings and vagina tootsie pops. Oops I just got an AO :o

[Heretic Machine]

AGAIN. This is not part of the game, it is in no way included with the game. What you people are trying to say is a dreaded marketing ploy, is junk code. Since it can never be seen in game as Rockstar has sold it, the code, models, and everything else associated with "Hot Coffee" is nothing more than 1's and 0's arranged in a pattern. Until it takes shape on the screen, it is not part of the game. Since this can only happen when modifications are made to the game, it is not Rockstar's responsibility. Case closed.

[Frostburn]

The game is rated M for 17+ and to get to this part of the game you have to use a Gameshark/Replay or something similar? I understand that Rockstart made a mistake by leaving it in and not telling the ESRB but for our government to get mad about it is just crazy, Mrs. Clinton putting the spotlight on it is just going to make it worse. The only people who will find this are people that go looking for it, its not a menu option when you first boot the game or anything. So I have two things, first is a post I made in another forum about Gaming and the Media and my experiance with a idiot adult and the other is the description of an M rated game as described by the ESRB.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

http://www.beetlesmod.com/useastforums/viewtopic.php?p=25942#25942

[RMan]

AGAIN. This is not part of the game, it is in no way included with the game.
Uhh, no, you are wildly incorrect. It's unlockable through a code, meaning that material is definitely there, just like the many games with code locked hidden materials we’ve seen throughout the years. This is much like shipping porn with a movie on a DVD in WMV files then claiming it's not a problem since you never intended them to be used with a PC. If you choose to believe it was an accident (they developed it, then forgot to remove it), and the ensuing denial was also a mistake, well, that's certainly a possibility, but I don't think that's the case. Mistake or intentional, they need to get some kind of punishment for it (which still won't match the free press they've gotten, but it'll send a message to both sides of the issue).

[Thenetcase]

AGAIN. This is not part of the game, it is in no way included with the game. What you people are trying to say is a dreaded marketing ploy, is junk code. Since it can never be seen in game as Rockstar has sold it, the code, models, and everything else associated with "Hot Coffee" is nothing more than 1's and 0's arranged in a pattern. Until it takes shape on the screen, it is not part of the game. Since this can only happen when modifications are made to the game, it is not Rockstar's responsibility. Case closed.

I just got done watching Zoolander... and I have to admit that the above statement is stupider than anything in that entire movie (which is pretty damn stupid).

1.) It IS content included in the game.
2.) It takes a simple utility you can buy at EBgames and Gamestop to unlock it on consoles (because you can't "patch" or "add data" to the PS2).
3.) Rockstar did not disclose this to the ESRB
4.) It is Adult Only material, whereas the rest of the game is NC17
5.) There is NO WAY the "Hot Coffee modification" could have included models and all the code required to make this mod work.
6.) There is no way the "Hot Coffee modification" could have rewritten the game. That would require already having the entire source code and have reverse-engineered it so you could insert a whole new segment of gameplay. This would have also made the "modification" (which included graphics, sound, cutscenes and control based interaction) phanominally large in file size. As it stands the mod is rather tiny and contains no such data. Nor does it contain models.
The conclusion we draw from these points is this: Rockstar screwed up. Rockstar behaved itself very unethically. The Hot Coffee mod makers DID unlock the material that was already in the game. Oh and the Hot Coffee Modification is NOT THE ONLY WAY TO UNLOCK IT.

Therefore we can conclude that the above quote is completely and in all ways false and written by a person who has NO knowledge of programming or game design.
Either that, or he's being extremely sarcastic. Or maybe he's 12 yrs old.

-TNC-

[Wonka]

Ehh, I think it was fairly transparently a marketing stunt, they certainly intended it to be part of the game, and to surface well after the game's release. They knew it was a violation of ESRB's ratings, but unless the government smacks them somehow, they'll likely be fined no more than $50K, which wouldn’t hold a candle to any one week of their marketing budget. It may, unfortunately, greatly underscore the toothlessness of the ESRB and make things tougher for the rest of the industry. Sad, because the thing itself really isn’t that big of a deal.

And if you think an AO rating wouldn’t have hurt, well, I think you’re very wrong. It may knock it out of wal-mart, which is a big hit in the wallet for any game, and may affect it’s penetration with other retailers (though likely not Gamestop, or other specialty stores). I think they’d have lied as many times as it took to the ESRB to avoid that rating.

It MAY be true that the AO rating might have hurt Rockstar if it had happened BEFORE they sold a hojillion copies of their game, (though I am actually not convinced of this). But regardless of this, I think its pretty clear that it wouldn't hurt them at this point. At this point, it can only drum up extra sales.

In any case, I think that if anyone could have afforded to take on the financial risk of having an AO rated title it would have been Rockstar. I actually wish they had just made their game an AO title from the beginning if thats the game that they really wanted to make. It actually might have given me a reason to buy it. I would have been groundbreaking and somewhat historical, much like GTA3 was.

[Groo]

1.) It IS content included in the game.

It is NOT content included in the game. If I put the San Andreas game into the PS2, and sat you down in front of it with a controller, there is no possible way for you to play the game to unlock this "hot coffee" content. Never in a million years.

Rockstar was considering making it part of the game, that's why it's on the disc. But it's not part of the game. They left it on the disc for some unknown reason, but not because they expected people to play it.

[Heretic Machine]

1.) It IS content included in the game.

No, it is not. It is code, sitting on a disk. It has no part in the game. To be part of the game, it must in some way effect gameplay or be rendered on the screen. This is not done, without modification to the game.

I think some people have pointed out that if you modify a Mario game, you can have Mario and Princess Peach fucking too. Sure, it's a more extensive modification, but that is irrelevant. This content does not exist without modification to the game, so Rockstar can not be held responsible for it.

Well, they can, but only but morons like yourself.

[eatme]

You could play this game for a million years, and there is no way you would ever see this content. Why? Because it isn't part of the game: it requires external modification to unlock.

THANK YUO FOR TEH TIP!111111111

[RMan]

It is NOT content included in the game. If I put the San Andreas game into the PS2, and sat you down in front of it with a controller, there is no possible way for you to play the game to unlock this "hot coffee" content. Never in a million years.
Because it's not visible the way you play the game doesn't mean it's not in there, just because something is undocumented or even hard to get to also does not mean it's not there. To say it's not included in the game is just plain stupid.
They left it on the disc for some unknown reason, but not because they expected people to play it.
Wow, you are quite the Rockstar fan, aren't you. You don't know the reason, but it's not for people to play it? Yea, I'm sure they spend a great deal of time developing and shipping things they don't intend to be played. Again, although there's an outside chance this is a big mistake on their part, to deny the possibility it was intentional is so sycophantic that perhaps you should be serving them some hot coffee :).

Listen, whether you realize it or not, you really need Rockstar to be punished in some way for this. The last thing you want, if you want to keep the government at bay, is for there to be a very obvious and visible example of where the ESRB’s ratings are meaningless. If the developer can simply ship anything they want, and as long as it is undocumented and/or difficult to find it is exempt from the ratings system, then the ESRB will clearly be inadequate.

[kwillhan]

If a little bored maggot fat kid decides to exploit the fact that Windows Deals With Hard Drives on a daily basis, is Windows as fault? Is Microsoft at fault? The code is there, in the program to erase things, and the little fat geeky kid only has to 'unlock' it, so doesn't that mean that Microsoft is the one that did it?

If they shoot a film with Angelina Jolie, and then later on some little fat kid releases previously unreleased sex scenes that weren't on the original film, doesn't that make it the directors fault?

If Stephen King writes a book, and then later on his little fat white kid gardener steals his manuscripts and releases some unwanted filth, isn't that Stephen Kings fault?

If Walmart releases a little fridge, and then some little fat white kid adds a little peice of C4 to it, and then it blows up, isn't it Wal Marts fault?

You people are dumb, like my mom.

kelly

[Opty]

If removing the code from the game added even one bug they'd have to sit and waste manhours to fix where adding an impossible if statement to bypass the code introduced no bugs, then the laziness that is in the heart of all programmers would have picked the bypass route. And I bet that's exactly what happened here. Someone up top said "Get rid of that sex minigame" and the programmers weighed their options and picked to bypass it. It doesn't matter it's included on the disk, the minigame simply cannot be accessed without modifying the game, and once you've modified the game in any way anything that happens is your fault. If I open up an .exe in Notepad and randomly replace values and then run that .exe and it makes my computer format itself, is it the creator of that .exe's fault my computer was fucked? No, it was my fault.

And also, I see a lot of people talking about the ESRB contract. Does anyone have the contract on hand so I can read it and see the part about "revealing all content, reachable or unreachable in the game" or anything of the sort that would get Rockstar in trouble for leaving code in the game that the average person who actually needs to follow the ESRB ratings can't get to? Also, what's funny about all this is that without the media blitz, only a few internet geeks would have known about this leftover code, but now many more people know about it and so that many more people can do it and "alter their fragile little minds" with "graphic" depictions of (fully clothed) sex.

[AspectVoid]

And also, I see a lot of people talking about the ESRB contract. Does anyone have the contract on hand so I can read it and see the part about "revealing all content, reachable or unreachable in the game" or anything of the sort that would get Rockstar in trouble for leaving code in the game that the average person who actually needs to follow the ESRB ratings can't get to?

I don't have the contract, but this is straight off of their website:

To get a game certified with an ESRB rating, publishers fill out a detailed questionnaire explaining exactly what's in the game, and submit it to ESRB along with actual videotaped footage of the game, showing the most extreme content and an accurate representation of the context and product as a whole.

Now then, lets see...the Hot Coffee mod is definately in the game if a console can access it and it certainly falls under most extreme content given all of the bitching.

Now then, on the ESRB site, there's also this:


As the game industry’s self-regulatory body, ESRB is responsible for the enforcement of its rating system. Every publisher of a game rated by the ESRB is legally bound to disclose all pertinent content when submitting the game for an ESRB rating.

The Hot Coffee stuff obviously falls under pertinent content, and Rockstar certainly did not disclose it to the ESRB. What the exact legal wording to the contract is, I don't have access to, but its pretty clear that Rockstar screwed up.

[AspectVoid]

After my last post I had to leave for work, and on the way I thought about this issue more. As I did, I came to realize something. It doesn't really matter whether leaving the Hot Coffee stuff on the game disks is an ESRB violation or not anymore. Rockstar is gonna get hammered no matter what. They're gonna end up being the sacrifical lamb to try to keep the US Government appeased and out of the game industry. There's not really much more to it then that.

It really sucks, but the way I see it, that's how it's gonna be.

[Mysteriousauger]

I think that the GTA series is a perfect tool for the war against government control. Here we have a game that is critically hailed and extremely popular challenging the authority of this government influenced (if not enforced) ESRB rating system. I don't bear the ESRB in particular any ill will because it is a good tool to help parents decide what to buy their kids and what to let them play, but their actual control over the content of industry games should be nonexistent. And the government really needs to haul their bloated form from off the doorstep of Rockstar North. They have NOTHING to do with this at all. The contract breach is between the ESRB and Rockstar. Besides, the rating is "M." I've seen breasts in M rated games. (usually on Harpies and other bare-breasted mythological enemies) I've seen other sex acts depicted that have no penetration or genitals depicted. (Silent Hill 2 Triangle Head Molestation Scene comes to mind) Even though the content was undisclosed it does not violate the rating, it just violates the legalese wording of the ESRB contract. And that is nothing to explode about. Fine them or whatever and then get back to rating games.

[fix]

Ripped straight from the GTA EULA:

" [...] If you create levels, add-on packs, sequels or other items to the Software using the SOFTWARE's level editor, including the construction of new levels (collectively, the "Modifications"), you are subject to the following restrictions: (i) the SOFTWARE's level editor and associated development tools and documentation (collectively "SDK") are considered separate from the SOFTWARE in the sense that they are not guaranteed or supported by the OWNER. However, the OWNER retains all copyrights and intellectual rights to the SDK, as stated in this license. (ii) your Modifications must require a full, registered copy of the Software to run; (iii) you may not distribute a Modification that contains an executable file which has been changed or modified in any way;

(iv) your Modifications must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties;

The prohibitions and restrictions in this Section apply to anyone in possession of the Software or any of your Modifications. YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO REVERSE ENGINEER, DECOMPILE OR DISASSEMBLE THE SOFTWARE IN ANY WAY. Any copying of the SOFTWARE or ACCOMPANYING MATERIALS not specifically allowed in this Agreement is a violation of this Agreement.
[...]"

According to that, the Hot Coffee mod is illegal, since the introduced content surely is scandalous (after all, it's caused a scandal). You can argue about the content already being in the game, but I guess there's a reason why Rockstar left it disabled. If you activate it (be it via hot coffee or gameshark), you violate the EULA, which makes *you* (see last paragraph in the quote, even if you didnt write the mod, you're still frobidden to install it without violating the EULA) the criminal, not Rockstar.

With this in mind, I think R* shouldn't worry too much about this scandal. It's a lot of free publicity, which fits right in with the "bad boy image" of the GTA series. Despite them having some powerful people against them who are trying to establish themselves as the usual "saviors of our youth", I'd guess that any proficient lawyer should be able to win this case on base of the EULA.

[Paranoia]

If they shoot a film with Angelina Jolie, and then later on some little fat kid releases previously unreleased sex scenes that weren't on the original film, doesn't that make it the directors fault?

That's one stupid analogy.

[Taco]

Fix, the mod didn't contain the Hot Coffee game. GTA contained the Hot Coffee game. How people don't understand this I don't know.

Kwillhan's whole post sucked a few IQ points into the crapper for everyone I think.

The prohibitions and restrictions in this Section apply to anyone in possession of the Software or any of your Modifications. YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO REVERSE ENGINEER, DECOMPILE OR DISASSEMBLE THE SOFTWARE IN ANY WAY. Any copying of the SOFTWARE or ACCOMPANYING MATERIALS not specifically allowed in this Agreement is a violation of this Agreement.

This would apply, but I don't think it absolves them. Whether or not this patch came out the content still would of been in the game, they just wouldn't of been busted.

[fix]

Fix, the mod didn't contain the Hot Coffee game. GTA contained the Hot Coffee game. How people don't understand this I don't know.

I'm fully aware of that, Taco. Still, the Hot Coffee minigame is disabled in GTA. You can't play it without modifying the code in a way that's expressly forbidden by Rockstar.

[Taco]

This situation still doesn't apply to your bold sections of the License Agreement. Also, what does intent matter to the ESRB? It's either in the game or it isn't.

[CaptMediocre]

I don't see why everyone is freaking about this. Only the uniformed should be doing that. They have had more explicit games on PC in Japan for years now, and their crime is 1/4 of what ours is. I wish Politicians would concern themselves what issues that truly effect the US people. Like say the raising Oil prices that they are now blaming Hurricanes for the reason the prices are going up. Last I checked, we have been dealing with Hurricanes for decades or more.
Further more, GTA would not have been released as an AO, as Sony had unofficially told Publishers that they would not "approve" AO games for release in the US. Which is why the Dev team probably was instructed to bury the mini-game.

[Taco]

Well personally, I don't care, I'm just trying to debate the facts. I do hate Rockstar though and think the GTA games are all vastly overrated.

In any case, Japan is not America, Americans think sex is the work of the devil.

[CaptMediocre]

What we should care about are the politicians. They are wasting our time and money campaigning against VGs, when they should be focussing on more important issues.
As everyone under the age of 40 knows, VGs do not make kids violent. My brother and I grew up playing Mortal Kombat. I have never thought of lighting people on fire or ripping spines out.
It just isn't popular for a Politicain to say the right thing. "Parents are to blame. Spend time with your kids and your gonna know if they are building guns and bombs in your basement."

[miah]

Not really. Rockstar's legal problem is that their contract with the ESRB states that they have to disclose the any material in the game, whether its naturally playable or not, if it can affect the rating of the game. By the material being on the disks, it had to be disclosed.

On the publicity side of things, they're problem is that congress and the media is making a huge deal over it. Its Mortal Kombat all over again, except with sex instead of blood. Of course, that means that inside a decade sex minigames will be a normal part of games. Well, that's what happened with the whole blood thing, anyway.

Almost, you're forgetting "Night Trap", which was the first game that got Congress's attention about all the things that are wrong with video games. Which didn't have "sex" like GTA, but it did have Dana Plato (and other girls) running around a night gown and "vampires" trying to steal their blood with crazy vacuum's.

[MosBen]

Jesus, I can't believe how far off the path people have gotten. This isn't a question of, "Oh, what if Stephen King blah blah blah." This is a contract matter between the ESRB and Rockstar. The ESRB provides a service, but in addition to their monetary fee they require full disclosure of the content provided by the developer. Now, it's possible something like this, being locked out and all, might not have actually affected the score, but that's not what we're talking about. Rockstar put out a game with content on the disc that was not disclosed in the rating process. That content is now in millions of homes. *You* may not think it's important, but the ESRB certainly does.

[Heretic Machine]

Jesus, I can't believe how far off the path people have gotten. This isn't a question of, "Oh, what if Stephen King blah blah blah." This is a contract matter between the ESRB and Rockstar.

WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT A CIVIL MATTER BETWEEN THE ESRB AND ROCKSTAR!!! I knew from the moment this shit hit the fan that we'd be dealing with politicians trying to fuck the industry... again. Now that's exactly what we're up against, and this time we have a crazy lawyer and a gold-digging whore who's only qualification for being a politician is that she used to be the wife of a president who regurally cheated on her.

[Heretic Machine]

Now then, lets see...the Hot Coffee mod is definately in the game if a console can access it and it certainly falls under most extreme content given all of the bitching.

WRONG! It's on the disk, not in the game.

[Thenetcase]

No, it is not. It is code, sitting on a disk. It has no part in the game. To be part of the game, it must in some way effect gameplay or be rendered on the screen. This is not done, without modification to the game.

How fucking stupid are you people going to get?

By "in the game" everyone means that it's a coded, finished piece of the software and CAN be accessed through "easter egg" type means or by a utility for finding hidden areas or levels. With the PC version a simple "-censored" flag on the command line is reported to work.
If this isn't part of the game (disabled by default or not) I don't know what is!

People, GET A FUCKING CLUE!!! Use your damn BRAINS. It's part of the game and they were legally obligated to reveal it to the ESRB because it was DEFINITELY going to be unlocked and discovered (which is exactly what happened).

Now please, anyone who still wants to say "this isn't in the game" go fucking shoot yourself.

-TNC-

[Groo]

How fucking stupid are you people going to get?

By "in the game" everyone means that it's a coded, finished piece of the software and CAN be accessed through "easter egg" type means or by a utility for finding hidden areas or levels. With the PC version a simple "-censored" flag on the command line is reported to work.
If this isn't part of the game (disabled by default or not) I don't know what is!

People, GET A FUCKING CLUE!!! Use your damn BRAINS. It's part of the game and they were legally obligated to reveal it to the ESRB because it was DEFINITELY going to be unlocked and discovered (which is exactly what happened).

Now please, anyone who still wants to say "this isn't in the game" go fucking shoot yourself.

-TNC-

My God, you are either incredibly stupid, or you understand nothing about the way software works.

It is NOT an Easter Egg. An Easter Egg is something that the designers put in for you to find through normal means. There is no way that Rockstar could have known that some asshole without a life would be poking around in the game enough to find this content.

Let's take it slow, so you can understand this. The way this game is meant to be played goes as follows: you have a console (let's say PS2). And a controller (let's say the PS2 controller). These are the only factors Rockstar is working with.

With input from the PS2 controller, there is no possible way to unlock this content. The only thing that's "part of the game" is stuff that can be unlocked using the controller. If Rockstar had put in a "code" for you to unlock this stuff, then I could understand what the problem would be. But, they didn't want anyone to see it.

They took it out of the game as a form of self censorship. And they left the content on the disc to avoid bugs. It's that simple. If you've ever heard of Occam's Razor, you'd know that the simplest solution is usually the correct one. This is the simplest solution. There is no massive conspiracy by Rockstar to corrupt our nation's youth.

And, as a side note, I fucking hate the Grand Theft Auto games anyway, and I would be overjoyed if they never sold another copy of them ever again.

Let me put it this way: let's say you're presenting a powerpoint presentation in your class. At one point, you decide to toss in a picture of a boob. However, later on, you decide against this, and take the picture of the boob out, but you still have it on your harddrive.

Is that picture of the boob still considered part of your powerpoint presentation because it's still on your harddrive? Should people get angry at you because there's a picture of a boob on your harddrive that no one should access? Now, I know this isn't completely analagous, but you get the idea.

[AspectVoid]

Let me put it this way: let's say you're presenting a powerpoint presentation in your class. At one point, you decide to toss in a picture of a boob. However, later on, you decide against this, and take the picture of the boob out, but you still have it on your harddrive.

Is that picture of the boob still considered part of your powerpoint presentation because it's still on your harddrive? Should people get angry at you because there's a picture of a boob on your harddrive that no one should access? Now, I know this isn't completely analagous, but you get the idea.

That's a bad analogy. The correct one would be that rather then deleting the boob off from the presentation, you put a picture of a cow over it. You then pass out CDs with the presentation on them. Someone in accounting deletes the cow, and viola, there's the picture of the boob again. Then the guy from accounting sends a company wide email about what you can find if you delete the picture of the cow.

Seriously, don't you think that if this happened, you'd get fired. I know in the places I've worked, I would if I did this.

[Heretic Machine]

[quote]CAN be accessed through "easter egg" type means or by a utility for finding hidden areas or levels.[/quote

No, you can't. You can -NOT- access this content without modifying the game. It's not like you use the friggin hidden enviroments bug to get there or something, this isn't an easter egg. For it to qualify as an easter egg, you'd have to be able to get to it without changing the way the game works.

Your opinion has been invalidated.

[MosBen]

The "what is or isn't part of the game" is only relevent vis a vis the rating, which is only relevent to the ESRB investigation into whether it should have properly been disclosed. And based on the fact that they're investigating whether or not this will affect the score, it certainly seems that the ESRB thinks that this should have been disclosed when Rockstar submitted the game for being rated.

The political side of it, the Lieberman/Clinton thing, is all politics and all that matters is that the content is there. Along with all the other things contained in the game that they object to, now there's a sex scene. This is politics, it doesn't matter how it can be accessed, the content is right there in the homes of millions of kids. Sure, I don't find any of that content objectionable, but from the standpoint of making a political case that games need some kind of federalized controls, whether the sex is an integral part of the game or something you have to unlock is just immaterial.

[Dirty Harry]

What makes me wonder, is that gta sa was out for 10 months before this was even discovered. Why now instead of them was this discovered?.

[Groo]

That's a bad analogy. The correct one would be that rather then deleting the boob off from the presentation, you put a picture of a cow over it. You then pass out CDs with the presentation on them. Someone in accounting deletes the cow, and viola, there's the picture of the boob again. Then the guy from accounting sends a company wide email about what you can find if you delete the picture of the cow.

Seriously, don't you think that if this happened, you'd get fired. I know in the places I've worked, I would if I did this.

I was thinking of something similar when I was writing my analogy. However, the GTA mod isn't as simple as deleting a cow, which everyone can do. There's a much smaller number of people who could/would actually crack GTA to open up the questionable content.

[AspectVoid]

I was thinking of something similar when I was writing my analogy. However, the GTA mod isn't as simple as deleting a cow, which everyone can do. There's a much smaller number of people who could/would actually crack GTA to open up the questionable content.

Personally, I think that the Action Replay is as simple as deleting the cow. Anyone can stick a CD into the PS2, type in the proper numbers, and then switch the CDs. I've been using Gameshark/Codebreaker/etc since I was about 10. I hate the buildup process in Eastern RPGs, so I use them to let me skip that and get back to the story. If a 10 year old can do it, I'd say that its open enough.

[Heretic Machine]

Personally, I think that the Action Replay is as simple as deleting the cow. Anyone can stick a CD into the PS2, type in the proper numbers, and then switch the CDs.

But then you'd have to own a device made specifically for modifying games. Now, the problem here of course is that most of the people who own and use these hack devices are children... which makes things seem worse if you're a soccer mom who thinks badly rendered sex will destroy your child's fragile mind.

[splatstick]

Jesus fucking Christ, I've read more interesting arguments about abortion.

It's alive!!!!!!!111!! It's just tissue!!!1!!1311
It's in the game!1!1!!11! It's just code!1532jttshr

Fucking shit people, if it can't be ACCESSED without modifying it in a way that it was not originally intended for, can you really blame Rockstar and keep a straight face?

I think the solution is that we create a time machine and abort Hilary Clinton.

[Groo]

Rockstar did NOT intend to have the game modified by Pro Action Replay. There should not be a precedent set that the developers are responsible for what people do with their game using cheating devices like a pro action replay.

[Heretic Machine]

I think the solution is that we create a time machine and abort Hilary Clinton.

My R&D team are working on this very solution in my secret volcano base. Since... you know... I hate gold-digging whores who get sympathy votes.

[Herald42]

I was thinking of something similar when I was writing my analogy. However, the GTA mod isn't as simple as deleting a cow, which everyone can do. There's a much smaller number of people who could/would actually crack GTA to open up the questionable content.

So instead of hiding the picture that poorly, it's more like someone who deleted it from their powerpoint presentation, but forgot to erase their tracks. Since Office keeps track of every little thing you type, even if you delete it, someone with a little bit of time and knowledge can go and see every little thing you deleted -- including said boob. All it took was someone with a little bit of knowledge, intuition, and a desire to be nosy.

[Crabby]

I think you can more closely relate this situation to that fiasco concerning the TechTV chick last year. She released that seductive picture and someone with an ounce of computer savy noticed that the thumbnail contained the whole uncropped picture rather than her alteration.

Yet, the result wasn't so ghastly, only harm done was her embrassment by showing the world a little boobie. There are probably tons of guys here grateful for that anyway.

[RMan]

Rockstar did NOT intend to have the game modified by Pro Action Replay. There should not be a precedent set that the developers are responsible for what people do with their game using cheating devices like a pro action replay.
Again, you have no idea what Rockstar intended. And I think it's very reasonable to hold developers responsible for what they ship on their DVDs. This is not hacked in content, and if another company had a copy of GTA3 inside their game that was unlockable through a pro action replay code then they'd get sued by Rockstar, because they put it there. The fact that it's hard to get to or undocumented doesn't change the fact that they put it there. And I, and many concerned parents/gamers would hate to see the opposite precedent, which is developers can ship whatever they want as long as it’s not accessible through the standard hardware.

It’d be nice to know Rockstar’s intent in this matter, but frankly, we never will. In the end, stop trying to figure it out, it really shouldn’t matter that much, many doctor’s careers have been ended by malpractice suits that did not involve ill intent, but did involve incompetent, negligent, or unethical conduct. Rockstar’s behavior surely exhibits at least one, if not all of these things at some level. To suggest they shouldn’t pay in some way is just unreasonably stupid.

[AbeLincoln]

I imagine if Rockstar had told the ESRB they had left the content in the source code, but unaccessable the ESRB would have told them to completly remove it. I'm not the ESRB but my guess for the reason they want to know about everything in the game is to maintain the integrity of the rating system and avoid scandal. The scandal the politicians have created rests on the thinking that, lurking on the disk is code for pixelated sex, and they are right. They don't care what you have to do to access it, they care that it's there. Rockstar doesn't think like the politicians or soccer moms, they shouldn't have to, they create games. The ESRB is meant to be the buffer if Rockstar had disclosed and the ESRB did nothing than I'd blame them and not Rockstar. Rockstar are to blame and something does need to be done to satisfy the scandal, people need to follow the rules.

You can't seperate these issues from each other, saying without the scandal Rockstar wouldn't seriously be charged, or that the contract with the ESRB doesn't matter and Rockstar locked the game well enough that this scandal is unfounded. It's all these things together that are the issue.

[Dra2k]

All that hot coffee has done is spark intrest in a game that has been out for a year on the PS2. What even a better way to sell even more copies by this mod/code whatever it may be to slip out or be found now that the PC and Xbox versions came out. That puts the game back in the spotlight and will only help Rockstar not hinder them. The rating should stand the same because the game already contains sexual content in it anyways. Any 17+ year old can go to an R rated movie and see alot more realistic sex scene than in GTA hot coffee. The rating AO 18+ is pretty much to me a stupid rating as is NC-17. So I guess that the ESRB thinks that a 17 year old knows about sex and violence and drugs as well as strong language but can take high amounts of it until they turn 18?

[MosBen]

Abe Lincoln is right. Most of the arguments people are giving in support of Rockstar strike me as ethical or moral arguments. While I have sympathy to those arguments, and indeed I don't think there's anything wrong per se with content that's on a disc and not part of the game from an ethical/moral standpoint, this isn't one of the two issues here.

Issue 1: Rockstar's contract with the ESRB. This is a simple matter of looking at the contract the two of them signed and parsing the disclosure requirements. While none of us know for sure what the contract says, I think it's entirely likely that the contract required full disclosure of everything shipped on the disc, whether an integral part of the game or locked content. The actions of the ESRB seem to me to indicate that *they* think the content should have been disclosed.

A sub issue here is also whether the sex scene would have affected the rating, and though many of us, myself included, think the ratings system is crazy in how it deals with sexual content as opposed to violent content, based on what we've seen from the ESRB in the past the scene very well might have had an impact on the score.

Issue 2: The political issue. We live in a society where currently it is popular to bash video games as the source of all types of evils. GTA was hardly out of the political spotlight before this happened and all kinds of similar hearings and denouncements had happened about any number of things that you are able to do in the game. Given this political climate, Rockstar released a game, already controversial for the brutal carnage you can partake in, with an unlockable sex minigame. Now, maybe this was on purpose. It's possible that they knew this would get found and also knew that as one of the most popular and profitable franchises in recent years that their game was in a unique position to include this content and make an issue out of it. As has been pointed out, the ESRB is very intertwined with the industry and it's very unlikely that they'll give an AO rating to a game this popular, regardless of the content, so maybe Rockstar is just trying to push the boundaries on acceptable levels of sexual content.

I don't know what they're trying/intending to do, and nobody else does outside the company. What we do know is that this is just one more thing to jump on if you're a person that thinks there's something wrong with video games today, and if this wasn't some intentional move by Rockstar then it was a huge damn mistake. Whether they intended it or not or whether it's an integral part of the game or some locked minigame, however, does not matter to the politicians. The content is there, in millions of children's homes across the country, and the debate is whether it *should* be there, regardless of how it's accessed, and also whether parents should be made aware of this content before they bring it into their homes.

I understand the frustration with the political process, but this happens every time there's some new artistic expression. It happened to Rock n' Roll, it's still happening to Rap, and it's going to continue to happen with video games until the kids that grew up on GTA are in thier 50s and are deeply involved in politics.

[steve]

many doctor?s careers have been ended by malpractice suits that did not involve ill intent, but did involve incompetent, negligent, or unethical conduct. Rockstar?s behavior surely exhibits at least one, if not all of these things at some level. To suggest they shouldn?t pay in some way is just unreasonably stupid.

Ah come on, please compare a virtual sex minigame in a 17-rated game that has to be externally unlocked on purpose to a doctor's malpractice. And I really love the American practice of suing everybody and making them pay. Jeesh get a life...

[RMan]

What the content was and how it was unlocked is inconsequential, and as most, you miss the point. The point is their blatant violation of the ESRB’s system, and the ramifications that has on the system and industry. Just like a doctor self-medicating or writing prescriptions on request, these violations are not earth shattering, but are actionable and penalties should be levied if the system is to be taken seriously.