Insights From The Father Of Panzer Dragoon

[Gorvi]

1UP (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3162620) has a very interesting interview up with Yukio Futatsugi, the creator of the Panzer Dragoon franchise, as well as Phantom Dust, and now former Microsoft Games Studios Japan Design Manager. It's a pretty telling view into the games market in Japan and how it's seen by someone on the inside. He conveys some fairly unbiased Wii, 360, and PS3 opinions, as well as what it was like being a key member of Microsoft's Japanese operations.

1UP: How do you feel about the Japanese game market today? The sales don't seem to reward the effort and innovation that goes into these games. It must be discouraging as a game designer, when people only want to buy sequels or play around on their cell phones.

Yukio Futatsugi: These days the kind of games that are selling well are things like Brain Training and simple games -- not the action titles -- it's a little bit of a pity that those kinds of games are what's selling. I didn't join the game industry to develop those kinds of games. I'm here to make real games, but from a business standpoint, these are the titles that are making money, so I understand that. However, with games like Monster Hunter, which sold over a million in Japan, so there are still hardcore games like that, so it's not like there aren't any game users out there. There are still kids in elementary and high school who are into games, but it comes down to the concept that game developers make, and the kind of games that users are wanting have to match. With titles like Monster Hunter, everything matched, so because of that I still have faith in the market.

The way I view the market is that these days is that game players are more into portable machines than consoles. But from research we've done, we found that people aren't using their portable machines on the go. The time they spend using these portable machines the most is when they're at home. Back in the days we played games in front of the TV, we would commit to the game for hours and we'd play, but these days kids have a lot of things they want to do, they want to go on the Internet, they want to watch TV, do a lot of stuff, so they can't commit that much time in front of the TV, play their game a little bit, do something else, then maybe play later again. So the style of gaming has changed. But developers that make games these days are from the generation that grew up sitting in front of their TV, putting in hours to a game. So the developers mind and the player's mind might not by synchronized.

.....

[B]1UP: So basically you would approve a concept and then hand it off to individual producers to manage?

YF: So Microsoft is like a game development investment company. It's not necessarily actively involved with the development. For example, Microsoft U.S. may have invested in this title, and they'll ask us "Do you think this game is worth the investment, do you think we'll make our money back?" And then we give our reports, like "We think this is a good investment" and give our report on the game. Then the developers will create the game, so Microsoft isn't so involved in the development that much. But during the development of 99 Nights it was a little better. I was able to be involved with the development, so it was more fun. But with Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey, no one could say anything to [Hironobu] Sakaguchi. Nobody could go up to Sakaguchi and say "This part sucks, you have to change this." So, we just had to watch what he was doing and report that back to the U.S., so my real feeling is that I'm just tired of this, it's time to move on.

That interview is a really good read, and I strongly recommend that you check out the rest of it. I think I'm going to go hunt down a copy of Phantom Dust now.

[Johan]

I'm going to read the whole thing, but as an increasingly casual gamer myself, I was interested in this, in reference to casual games like Brain Age:

I'm here to make real games, but from a business standpoint, these are the titles that are making money, so I understand that.

"Real" games? I'm pretty sure that's kinda silly. I may think my kids drawings are pretty simplistic and not "real" art, but to my kids and millions of other kids, such doodles are quite artistic. In other words, following the analogy, some people like simple, accessible, fun games. And they're still games. They're not complex. They're not deep. But they're games. Period.

[Gorvi]

Johan, I think you're taking what he's saying a bit to literally. :p

[Johan]

Johan, I think you're taking what he's saying a bit to literally. :p

Well, if I didn't, then my post would look like this instead:

Great article. QFT! Cool! Nice post!

That's boring as hell!

I found this interesting:

The only people who buy Xbox in Japan are people who like games. Hardcore gamers. If you ask them what their hobby is, they'll say "playing games.

So pretty much not enough Japanese like games? And the non-hardcore gamers buy PLAYSTATION?? ;)

He also said:

With Xbox 360 if you look at the lineup of titles that the 360 has right now, it's pretty solid, and if we had this kind of lineup 5 years ago, we might have had half the market. But these days the way users play games has changed, so the question is do people even want to play games on a console any more?

I don't know...is that the case in Japan? Maybe so...

[Kelegacy]

I'd be disappointed too, as a game maker, if games like Brain Age were the increasing norm in my business. It would be like coloring book creators making a fortune, and here I am a gifted Picasso or da Vinci watching my art falter. Casual gaming, for me, is more like jumping into GTA or Crackdown and just fucking around. If I wanted to do Sudoku or crosswords, I'd buy a 99 cent activity book in a store.

But casual stuff is growing because it's cheap to make, cheaper than games like Halo and Gears anyway. There isn't as much investment, and much of the art is thrown by the wayside.

[mkelehan]

On the plus side, Bioshock and Prime 3 are both selling very well.

[Gorvi]

On the plus side, Bioshock and Prime 3 are both selling very well.
In the quote, as far as I can tell, he's only talking about Japan.

[BigJonno]

I never really thought of the Japanese market in terms of the PS casual/Xbox hardcore thing before, but it's true in Britain and I can see why it would be true in Japan. The casual segment of the market mainly buys of sports/driving games, platformers/"kiddie" games, party/"girlie" games and GTA and its imitators. The PS2 had either the best or most recognised games in all those categories. Sony had the brands and the marketing. The casual gamers weren't interested in the Xbox because MS never gave them a reason to. Even now, there are a lot of people who will buy a PS3 for Gran Turisimo, having never heard of Forza.

[lockwoodx]

I think I'm going to go hunt down a copy of Phantom Dust now.[/I]

You never played phantom dust? OMG that game pushed the xbox to it's limits and tho it was online only, well worth the purchase. One of my top ten favorite console games and very underrated.

You will be suprised at how deep the game gets.

[Gorvi]

You never played phantom dust? OMG that game pushed the xbox to it's limits and tho it was online only, well worth the purchase. One of my top ten favorite console games and very underrated.

You will be suprised at how deep the game gets.
Wait, it's an online game? I thought it was an action game with some RPG elements? Shit.

[lockwoodx]

Online only. You use and collect cards your able to trade with people as you find them in the game. Some are very rare and others are common. You do your fighting action style, casting the cards like spells ala Marvel's gambit. The action stages remind me most of armored core style of fighting with target locking, huge jumps over 99% destructible enviorments, and really cool abilities to augment every aspect.

<edit> there is a short single player campaign but you still have to be connected to live to access it. The game was only $19.99 USD when it was brand new and you more than get your monies worth.

<edit2> You only get the rarest cards and best spells fighting other people if that clears things up a bit. I cannot praise this game enough for the value when it was brand new, and if you can find a copy now it should be a steal.

[Kelegacy]

Online only. You use and collect cards your able to trade with people as you find them in the game. Some are very rare and others are common. You do your fighting action style, casting the cards like spells ala Marvel's gambit. The action stages remind me most of armored core style of fighting with target locking, huge jumps over 99% destructible enviorments, and really cool abilities to augment every aspect.

<edit> there is a short single player campaign but you still have to be connected to live to access it. The game was only $19.99 USD when it was brand new and you more than get your monies worth.

I was going to say, it's not online only. I didn't play online, just single player. It's pretty fun, but it got sort of repetitve after a while for me. Still, it was fun. Worth a try.

And NO, you don't need Live at all. I never had Live with my first Xbox. You can play completely offline.

[Gorvi]

Online only. You use and collect cards your able to trade with people as you find them in the game. Some are very rare and others are common. You do your fighting action style, casting the cards like spells ala Marvel's gambit. The action stages remind me most of armored core style of fighting with target locking, huge jumps over 99% destructible enviorments, and really cool abilities to augment every aspect.

<edit> there is a short single player campaign but you still have to be connected to live to access it. The game was only $19.99 USD when it was brand new and you more than get your monies worth.
Hmmmm. I wonder if there's still anyone playing. I do still have an active LIVE account.......

[Kelegacy]

Hmmmm. I wonder if there's still anyone playing. I do still have an active LIVE account.......

You don't need Live. Read my above post. There is a SP campaign. It's actually good.

[lockwoodx]

I was going to say, it's not online only. I didn't play online, just single player. It's pretty fun, but it got sort of repetitve after a while for me. Still, it was fun. Worth a try.

And NO, you don't need Live at all. I never had Live with my first Xbox. You can play completely offline.

Hmmm the box said it required live and I always had a live account activated so I guess I never noticed if it worked off line. I was always connected regardless.

[Gorvi]

You don't need Live. Read my above post. There is a SP campaign. It's actually good.
Oh, I saw, but the online portion would at least be interesting. Hell, I'm sure I could pick up a used copy for less than $10 now.

[lockwoodx]

It's a hidden gem for sure.

<edit> let me know what you think after you've tried it.

[DaXIthR]

"Real" games? I'm pretty sure that's kinda silly. I may think my kids drawings are pretty simplistic and not "real" art, but to my kids and millions of other kids, such doodles are quite artistic. In other words, following the analogy, some people like simple, accessible, fun games. And they're still games. They're not complex. They're not deep. But they're games. Period.

I agree, but I always take these with a grain of salt. We've learned by now that there is no reliable interpreter for Japanese as far as videogames are concerned.

With that disclaimer put up, the 'real games' bit irked me as well. It comes off as elitist and a little deluded even, but I can appreciate his honesty because that shines through as well. I say 'deluded' because there was a long period - virtually everything to end of the 16-bit era - where action titles dominated videogames. Back then, we basically only had platformers, action titles, racing/sports and RPGs. His preferred genre has seen its purple patch.

And as an aside, Brain Age and Brain Training are viewed a little too simply. They are innovative titles and gambles, and I suspect they will be remembered historically for altering the industry. Obviously, no one else saw the potential for such titles to become the phenomenons they are, and so credit goes to the original concept. You can't knock them for that.

[Kamalot]

Complaining about 'brain age' type of games is like action-movie makers complaining that people are making documentaries. There's room for both.

[Edwin]

You never played phantom dust? OMG that game pushed the xbox to it's limits and tho it was online only, well worth the purchase. One of my top ten favorite console games and very underrated.

You will be suprised at how deep the game gets.

It is not an online game. While you can play it online there is most certainly a single player game.

[Johan]

As far as Phantom Dust and online, I'd be surprised if many games outside of Halo 2 have terribly many people playing them online after a year or more from release.

Getting it for single player sounds like a good idea, or to play against friends who already own it and who are online.

That being said, I still occasionally drop in Crimson Skies and enjoy a random online game or two. It can be tough to find people, but it's such a blast that I don't care. What a great game that was/is. I mean, I just LOVE that game.

[Gorvi]

As far as Phantom Dust and online, I'd be surprised if many games outside of Halo 2 have terribly many people playing them online after a year or more from release.

Getting it for single player sounds like a good idea, or to play against friends who already own it and who are online.

That being said, I still occasionally drop in Crimson Skies and enjoy a random online game or two. It can be tough to find people, but it's such a blast that I don't care. What a great game that was/is. I mean, I just LOVE that game.
Yeah, Crimson Skies was a great game. I'm having some really big flashbacks of that game now with Warhawk. :)

[bean19]

1. I'm not sure about how unbiased this is. Obviously, he is disgruntled and planning to leave his job.

2. I find it unlikely that the majority of Japan has moved on from serious gaming and is now looking for portable and casual games only. Sure, PS3 sales are low in Japan too, but they aren't nearly as low as the 360 and the 360 has a year lead on them (something like 500K for the 360 now vs. slightly over a million for the PS3). That could be one part of the puzzle, but I think that are markets are probably more similar than he thinks. The PS3 probably still holds a lot of popular support there because in the last two generations it was the clear leader but the high price-tag continues to scare buyers away. Likewise, the 360's price is still not near mass-market range, and despite it's outstanding game library, the Japanese made fun of the original Xbox like we make fun of the Phantom, so it has a negative stereotype to overcome. I agree with him about the Wii's success being due to people saying it's fun and the fact that people playing together tend to sell each other the machines - especially to casual gamers who are okay with slow game release schedules because they are casual gamers.

Very interesting article, but I have clear problems with it that make me disagree with Gorvi's gushing introduction.

[Gorvi]

Bean, I didn't really mean to make it a "gushing" intro, just positive. And I don't think he's leaving because he's disgruntled, it looks like he just wants to get back into development in a more hands on manner.

[Johan]

Yeah, Crimson Skies was a great game. I'm having some really big flashbacks of that game now with Warhawk. :)

That makes me want to play Warhawk! Grrrr....no $$$.

[NeoSuplex]

Complaining about 'brain age' type of games is like action-movie makers complaining that people are making documentaries. There's room for both.

The problem is, there isn't in Japan. If the rest of the world were like Japan in the way they played games, Hardcore games would no longer be profitable.

[bean19]

Bean, I didn't really mean to make it a "gushing" intro, just positive. And I don't think he's leaving because he's disgruntled, it looks like he just wants to get back into development in a more hands on manner.

Fair enough. I reread it and you were just positive and not "gushing". Also, disgruntled is too hard a word. . . but he is leaving his job which I think does create an element of bias.

Everyone is biased though, so I guess I just don't really understand where his bias lies. Maybe this piece is more honest because of it. In any case, I still disagree that the PS3 and the Xbox 360's main reasons for selling poorly in Japan are that they do not appeal to casual gamers.

I think that we are seeing an influx of NEW game consumers, but the old ones aren't going anywhere.

[drakkarim]

I think I'm going to go hunt down a copy of Phantom Dust now.[/I]

I've got a copy i'd sell for 10 shipped :)

[Krispy]

I wonder if you would get beaten on the streets if you walked around in a Master Chief costume in Japan.

[Johan]

I think that we are seeing an influx of NEW game consumers, but the old ones aren't going anywhere.

Some of them are dying...:(

[Orz]

Panzer Dragoon Saga is still the finest game of all time.

That is all.

[Furious Wang]

"Real" games? I'm pretty sure that's kinda silly. I may think my kids drawings are pretty simplistic and not "real" art, but to my kids and millions of other kids, such doodles are quite artistic. In other words, following the analogy, some people like simple, accessible, fun games. And they're still games. They're not complex. They're not deep. But they're games. Period.

Quit being so relativistic and grow some balls. Your kids drawrings are not real art.

I wasn't aware that Monster Hunter was considered a "hardcore game" though, so maybe there's a point there somewhere.

Phantom dust was a very fun game. The problem was there were a few ridiculously over powered "rare" skills that dominated online play and the developers never did anything about them, even after several updates/rebalances.

[Johan]

Quit being so relativistic and grow some balls. Your kids drawrings are not real art.

My kids draw--rings?

And isn't it a bit of an oxymoron to tell someone with five kids that he needs balls? :D

So tell me...how do you define art? CAN it be defined?

*lays mine field. Waits* :D

[RMan]

Complaining about 'brain age' type of games is like action-movie makers complaining that people are making documentaries. There's room for both.
Exactly, March of the Penguins success and even that of all those reality TV shows years did not dramatically change the markets they were in.
2. I find it unlikely that the majority of Japan has moved on from serious gaming and is now looking for portable and casual games only.
Precisely, I’m a big fan of the casual gaming change that’s happening now, because I think it’s best for gamers. This characterization that casual games are ‘taking over’ anything is just not true, even on the DS which is likely best designed for casual play, has maybe 1 of 5 successful games as casual games (and their success is in no small part due to being half as expensive). I think games like Brain Training draw a lot of attention because it’s so unique, cheap to develop, and clearly successful that it bothers a lot of traditional gamers and designers, but that’s hardly the norm, and I think most people would like to see risk and creativity rewarded (at least sometimes). Perhaps some developers would like the industry become purely about big budget games/sequels, but that’s only desirable by industry insiders, and it’s ultimately not good for the industry.

In truth, we’re likely just finally achieving balance in that respect, I think in the past games were too hard and built for enthusiasts that were willing to put up with much more than casual gamers today. Casual games are filling a demand, and it doesn’t seem as if traditional games are selling any less than they ever did, if anything, they seem to sell more. Perhaps traditional games are less profitable, but that’s not the fault of the market, excessive budgets are to blame for that.

[Wolvie]

Phantom dust ruled! It was quite possibly the most under rated game on the Xbox.

[JockoIsWacko]

It's been said that the only people in Japan that buy Xbox are the hardcore gamers.....

It's all about the Nationalism, baby!
Unfortunately for the Japanese, they sure are missing out on so many great games such as Bioshock, Gears, Dead Rising and Halo.....

[Edwin]

People still play Phantom Dust online. I try to get in a few games at least three times a week.

[GabeCube]

But with Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey, no one could say anything to [Hironobu] Sakaguchi. Nobody could go up to Sakaguchi and say "This part sucks, you have to change this." So, we just had to watch what he was doing and report that back to the U.S., so my real feeling is that I'm just tired of this, it's time to move on.

Anyone who had a chance to "interview" (and I mean that in the most loose sense possible) Sakaguchi should know that. Seriously, for the most part, we'd ask questions to his employees and producers, and only if they couldn't answer themselves, they'd translate for him - and he'd invariably look a little bothered while answering (almost as if "we just didn't get it").

Seriously, it felt something like "interviewing" Don Corleone. About as different from Tetsuya Mizuguchi as possible - who not only spoke PERFECT English, but was also excited about talking of his game.