Blu-Ray has the early lead vs HD-DVD?

[MrMeatshake]

gamesindustry.biz (http://gamesindustry.biz) is reporting (http://gamesindustry.biz/news.php?aid=10123) that:

Of the 1200 consumers who took part in the survey, 58 per cent said they favoured Blu-Ray ... and only 16 per cent cited HD-DVD as their format of choice.

Personally, I think there are a few reasons to favour the blu-ray standard over HD-DVD, but this is probably another case of pre-launch pointless surveying, and I think it's too early for me to throw my hat in on either side of the debate yet.

Let the partisan pro and anti-sony comments commence!

[AspectVoid]

Sony rules! *** will blow chunks! Console Wars OVER!

Okay, all joking aside, I'm on the side of Blu-Ray for next gen media. As I posted over in the JRPG vs CRPG thread, I think that the Holy Grail of games will be finding ways to let you interact with games using voice communication, and that means that the games need to be able to contain huge dictionaries and high level AI. This means more storage is needed, which means Blu-Ray is the better choice.

Honestly, I think Microsoft would be smart to look into Blu-Ray for the XB360, even though its a Sony design, if they want to take the console long term. For three or four years HD-DVD will be fine, I think, but once you get beyond that I believe that it's going to prove to be too small a storage format.

[Ernst_Jager]

Until they make Blu-Ray a more durable media my choice is still HD-DVD. From what I have read Blu-Ray has some problems in this area. Renting a game/movie you know it is going to be scratched all to hell.

[Klade]

I think whichever is cheaper is going to win. It did with the Beta vs VHS I see nothing that would change that these days.

[Paltry]

wow

i never realized us consumers had such strong opinions regarding disc type

especially before these disc types are really available to... consumers

polls suck my balls

[darkwarrior]

Didn't they create a high-tech polymer for Blu-Ray that increases its durability massively? Or was that HD-DVD?

[Vandenh]

We don't decide who wins. The publishers do...

You might prefer BlueRay/HD-DVD but if you cannot buy the movies and players you want the format will die.

That being said.. HD-DVD has the edge right now.

BTW this article is funny.. it sounds almost like a BlueRay commercial.

[Paranoia]

The poll fails to mention about price.

[MrMeatshake]

I think whichever is cheaper is going to win. It did with the Beta vs VHS I see nothing that would change that these days.

i'm sure i was told it was pr0n that won that particular round - though undoubtedly that was related 2 cost - all the pr0n studios used VHS, so it was bound 2 win... might b wrong, though.

[Kamalot]

So they ask 'potential consumers':

"Do you like Bluray for HDTV; the format that uses blue lasers...
...or do you like HD-DVD a slightly better version of DVDs?"

It is all on how you phrase the question. The above is not a fair or level representation of the facts but could be used in a poll such as this. It does not take into account price of discs or players, availability of content or anything else.

Based on the article and how it reads like a Bluray commercial, I wouldn't be shocked if the whole poll was slanted.

[AspectVoid]

That being said.. HD-DVD has the edge right now.


From what I can tell, support is fairly even right now. HD-DVD has four studios backing it (New Line Cinema, Paramount Pictures, Universal Studios, and Warner Bros.) while Blu-Ray also has four studios (Sony Pictures, MGM, 20th Century Fox, and Walt Disney). As far as game companies are concerened, HD-DVD has 1 company backing it (Microsoft) and Blue Ray has three (Sony, Vivendi, and Electronic Arts).

So yeah, as things stand right now, no one really has an advantage. Hell, actually, I'd give Blu-Ray the advantage since we don't know when exactly the X-box 360 will get HD-DVD support (as Microsoft is saying it will ship with a standard DVD drive), while the PS3 will ship with Blu-Ray.

[TRiLoGY]

hmmm pr0n.... :)

I think both formats will obviously be good, but I think Im more in favor of Blu-Ray..

[Vandenh]

>From what I can tell, support is fairly even right now

Don't forget that MS has not announced driver support for Bluray in Longhorn. They have announced HD-DVD support. If PCs cannot use Bluray, they will be in trouble. MS has actually a very large stick ;) but I don't think MS cares that much about bluray vs HDDVD. Of course if they could use it to hurt the PS3, they might....

[Kelegacy]

So they ask 'potential consumers':

"Do you like Bluray for HDTV; the format that uses blue lasers...
...or do you like HD-DVD a slightly better version of DVDs?"

It is all on how you phrase the question. The above is not a fair or level representation of the facts but could be used in a poll such as this. It does not take into account price of discs or players, availability of content or anything else.

Based on the article and how it reads like a Bluray commercial, I wouldn't be shocked if the whole poll was slanted.

It's true, the name of the technology could play a big role in how people perceive the media. Blu-Ray sounds catchy, and the "blu" part reminds me of a yummy blue-raspberry candy shell. HD-DVD is a generic word that really might not appeal to many people. That is a dumb average-joe concept, but when you take something like "Xtreme Cheese Doritos" and "Extra Cheese Doritos", the consumer will always dive into the flashier.

For me, I lean towards Blu-Ray. Why? Because of the Blu-Raspberry candy shell!

[kokyunage]

If manufacturers make Blueray units for the PC than microsoft would be forced to have support for it in Windows. Otherwise, they would get sued left and right.

[Orphiuchus]

Ask 100 people on the street which format they prefer and 98 will respond with "What the hell are you talking about?", and the other 2 will be mugged durring the interview.

[Paranoia]

There are perfectly valid reasons why DVD was successful over VHS.

No tape rewinding
Easy to skip chapter/scenes
Cheaper to manufacture the disc
Significant visual improvement over VHS
Multiple language & subtitles option
Holds more content than VHS
Easier to carry, less bulky than VHS
5.1, Dolby Digital, DTS
A format that has all the support of the movie industry

I really don't see how one can simply buy ANOTHER of the same movie when their current DVD collection still looks pretty well.

So what does Blu-ray/HD-DVD has to offer to average joes out there that would want to make them jump out and buy the damn format?

Better audio & visual quality? That's all?

[Slack3r78]

Darkwarrior is correct - there's been a special coating developed for BluRay that makes the discs much more robust. Before this, it was thought that BluRay discs would require a caddy. Not anymore.

The thing I really don't understand is why so many geeks have fallen for the "HD-DVD is cheaper" FUD. Yes, BluRay requires the retooling of production facillities, making it more expensive. But you know what HD-DVD's dirty little secret is? For multilayer HD-DVD discs, the factories have to be retooled anyway. Given that HD-DVD has a much lower capacity per layer than BluRay, it has a greater need for multilayer discs, meaning that in the long term, HD-DVD will likely end up being just as expensive as BluRay, while being an inferior (in terms of storage) format.

Given all that, I find the case for HD-DVD to be rather weak overall, as I don't really care who the inventing company is, so long as I can get HiDef content on a single disc without giving up quality because the studios were trying to save a buck.

[Vandenh]

>If manufacturers make Blueray units for the PC than microsoft would be forced to have support for it in Windows.

Errr... no

[TRiLoGY]

Darkwarrior is correct - there's been a special coating developed for BluRay that makes the discs much more robust. Before this, it was thought that BluRay discs would require a caddy. Not anymore.

The thing I really don't understand is why so many geeks have fallen for the "HD-DVD is cheaper" FUD. Yes, BluRay requires the retooling of production facillities, making it more expensive. But you know what HD-DVD's dirty little secret is? For multilayer HD-DVD discs, the factories have to be retooled anyway. Given that HD-DVD has a much lower capacity per layer than BluRay, it has a greater need for multilayer discs, meaning that in the long term, HD-DVD will likely end up being just as expensive as BluRay, while being an inferior (in terms of storage) format.

Given all that, I find the case for HD-DVD to be rather weak overall, as I don't really care who the inventing company is, so long as I can get HiDef content on a single disc without giving up quality because the studios were trying to save a buck.

I think you have made a good point! :)

[StoneGut]

I can see this proving to be a huge hurdle for developers when releasing cross-platform games. We see it now with titles being released for XBox, PS2 and Gamecube... the Gamecube version is almost always lacking a feature or two, less bonus unlockable content, lower quality cut-scenes, whatever the the same game released on the other 2 systems.
So unless Microsoft has some really good compression tech that they haven't announced yet this trend might continue into the next gen.

[kokyunage]

Right, except Manufacturers can release their own drivers for the OS. The Windows Driver Development Kit is widely available. Not to mention, your "errr...no" response is asinine.

Like it or not, Microsoft no longer has the ability to do whatever the fuck it wants. It is still required to follow country laws. If it’s not sued here, it would definitely get sued in the EU.

[Vandenh]

>Right, except Manufacturers can release their own drivers for the OS

Yes.. brings us back to the old days when CDs came with their own driver disk.

If MS builds in support for HD-DVD and not for Bluray that could make a big difference.

And sorry... that "errr.. no" is actually 100% correct. MS doesn't need to include drivers and/or support for anything. There is no law stating that they have to do that... like you said "supply you own drivers".

[Deadend]

So, why exactly is there a fight between HD-DVD and Blu-ray?

Blu-Ray can hold more data, thus in my eyes it's probably the better format.

I think the whole thing comes down to corperate ego tripping. Sony will of course want royalties for everything blu-ray, which makes it even more expensive than it would be and HD-DVD just seems to be kinda meh.

[kokyunage]

What's wrong w/ "support your own drivers"? Hell, 1/2 of the USB devices out there require you to install drivers before people insert the device. Also, most people will be not buying a Blueray unit to install into their computer. It will come preinstalled with drivers already installed in their new computers.

So, you're wrong. Sorry.

[Steamtron]

maybe this is a stupid question and if it is, be gentle. But wouldn't HDDVD and Blu-Ray require different drives in a PC altogether? Wouldn't Sony just release drivers with the Blu-Ray drives and have them made available online as well? They don't need to be made available through Microsoft. I guess I just dont see this as a big issue. Correct me if im wrong.

[Slack3r78]

Deadend,

It's because HD-DVD is being pushed as cheaper for manufacturers to produce. As I said in my previous post, my reading on the subject has lead me to believe this is a bit of a false hope. Personally, 15GB per layer vs 25GB per layer is enough to seal it for me, as this means that it takes a dual layer HD-DVD to provide the same (and slightly) more storage as BluRay. This means that HiDef content will need to either be a lower bitrate for HD-DVD, or HiDef HD-DVD discs will need to be dual layer, raising the cost as opposed to a single layer BluRay disc.

So like I suggested, I see it largely as DVD manufacturers attempting to save a buck at the cost of long term viabillity and quality, as opposed to a truly technical debate. From a technical standpoint, it's hard to argue that BluRay isn't the superior format.

[CarpeAmentum]

From what I can tell, support is fairly even right now. HD-DVD has four studios backing it (New Line Cinema, Paramount Pictures, Universal Studios, and Warner Bros.) while Blu-Ray also has four studios (Sony Pictures, MGM, 20th Century Fox, and Walt Disney). As far as game companies are concerened, HD-DVD has 1 company backing it (Microsoft) and Blue Ray has three (Sony, Vivendi, and Electronic Arts).

So yeah, as things stand right now, no one really has an advantage. Hell, actually, I'd give Blu-Ray the advantage since we don't know when exactly the X-box 360 will get HD-DVD support (as Microsoft is saying it will ship with a standard DVD drive), while the PS3 will ship with Blu-Ray.

Yes, It looks fairly balanced when only looking at studios and game consoles. However, when you add other companies in there, the balance seems to start swaying alittle more in Blu-ray's favor.
Blu-ray is supported by at least the following companies (these are listed as the Blu-ray Disc Association's board of directors companies) :
Apple, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic, Pioneer Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, TDK Corporation, and Thomson.

[Adam Blue]

A lot of you bitch about backward compatibility. Well, you'll still be able to play your DVD's in HDDVD players that come out at the end of this year.

And while BluRay might seem scratch resistant, the problem is that the laser will read 0.1mm under the surface, while HDDVD is 0.6mm. So BluRay is paying more for protection, but in the end it's just the same.

From what I've found on the Internet, HDDVD is the most logical. BluRay seems to be a little too out-there for this time frame and will leave too many people in the dark. Price-wise and without backward compatibility.

[Phades]

There are perfectly valid reasons why DVD was successful over VHS.

No tape rewinding
Easy to skip chapter/scenes
Cheaper to manufacture the disc
Significant visual improvement over VHS
Multiple language & subtitles option
Holds more content than VHS
Easier to carry, less bulky than VHS
5.1, Dolby Digital, DTS
A format that has all the support of the movie industry

I really don't see how one can simply buy ANOTHER of the same movie when their current DVD collection still looks pretty well.

So what does Blu-ray/HD-DVD has to offer to average joes out there that would want to make them jump out and buy the damn format?

Better audio & visual quality? That's all?


I'm with you. I don't really care about either format as far as movies are concerned. I've got my DVD library and it's not feeling long in the tooth yet. Either of the new formats is going to really have to wow me to get me to switch. I think the average consumer isn't going to want to either. It's too soon.

[Slack3r78]

A lot of you bitch about backward compatibility. Well, you'll still be able to play your DVD's in HDDVD players that come out at the end of this year.

And while BluRay might seem scratch resistant, the problem is that the laser will read 0.1mm under the surface, while HDDVD is 0.6mm. So BluRay is paying more for protection, but in the end it's just the same.

From what I've found on the Internet, HDDVD is the most logical. BluRay seems to be a little too out-there for this time frame and will leave too many people in the dark. Price-wise and without backward compatibility.

How do you figure BluRay players won't be backwards compatible? It simply requires the player to use a different laser head to handle reading, the same way DVD players do for a CD. Not really that much of a hurdle. If you're talking the hybrid discs that they've been trying to tout, you're back at the same problem of you *can* do it, but a hybrid disc is going to be more expensive than a single layer BluRay disc to produce.

[Darkman]

I am not sure why people think BluRay won't work on Computers. Heck, Microsoft is making one of the compression schemes that Blu-ray uses.

http://news.com.com/Blu-ray+group+gets+behind+Microsoft+tech/2100-1041_3-5330786.html

As to which is better, well Blu-ray has more storage then HD-DVD. Which should lead to yes better audio and video quailty. HD-DVD's advantages are.... well.... maybe they cost less to manufacture? No real advantage to the consumer at all.

As far as the cost goes, it really isn't about manufacturing costs, its about how many of the product is bought, and the greed of the people selling the product. CD's have been cheaper to manufacture over tapes since they came out. Which has always been priced higher?

So in the end run, which will succeed. Personal opinion points at Blu-ray for no other reason then it is going to be in the PS3. Sony could sell upwards of maybe 30 to 40 million ps3's worldwide. If Microsoft doesn't come to the dance wearing some form of HD delivery device, its pretty much over. And the argument that its better picture and audio quailty is the only advantage over DVD, well I aplaud that. The day you go HD is the first day you realize how crappy regular tv looks, and while DVD's look good on a HD device they can't compare to true HD.

[Chandler]

"No tape rewinding"

Ha! How about, no tape forwarding!...it was so chunky and hard to move to a different part of the disc. Of course chapters are a lot better I suppose..but still, I can't have my manual slo-mo rewinding of an explosion.

[motor]

The real advantage to HD-DVD (and honestly I don't think I have any bias :) is that you can manufactur a hd-dvd that plays at existing quality in a current dvd players and plays at higher quality on HD-DVD players. I think this is why HD-DVD will win, people will eventually see disc that say "hd-dvd" and still buy them just as normal and play them on the existing dvd player, and when their $29.95 dvd player fizzes out in two years, then they buy a new hd-dvd player and hd-tv and presto, all their old dvd's look much better. then they go back and repurchase the old dvds they own that they bought before hd-dvd discs came out. Thus the manufacturers get you in the end by selling you the same movie twice. Everyone's happy.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

The real advantage to HD-DVD (and honestly I don't think I have any bias is that you can manufactur a hd-dvd that plays at existing quality in a current dvd players and plays at higher quality on HD-DVD players.

This isn't much of an advantage -- there's a hybrid Blu-Ray/DVD format (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/5903.cfm) that can do the exact same thing.

[Kamalot]

This isn't much of an advantage -- there's a hybrid Blu-Ray/DVD format (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/5903.cfm) that can do the exact same thing.
At what cost? Last I checked, a DVD factory can be turned into an HD-DVD factory in a day. What will the costs be associated with making Bluray discs AND regular DVD discs at the same time?

[Kamalot]

Darkwarrior is correct - there's been a special coating developed for BluRay that makes the discs much more robust. Before this, it was thought that BluRay discs would require a caddy. Not anymore.
As long as the special coating isn't the same one used on the PSP, you know, the one that is so easy to scratch that rubing the unit with the included cleaning cloth damages the surface? Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

At what cost?

The cost of manufacturing a DVD layer and then gluing it to the Blu-Ray layer.

As long as the special coating isn't the same one used on the PSP, you know, the one that is so easy to scratch that rubing the unit with the included cleaning cloth damages the surface?

It's not. It's actually this coating (http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+this+DVD/2100-1041_3-5455621.html).

[MajSheppard]

I favor keeping dvd around for many more years, screw sony and this damn, lets make everyone buy all there movies again. Screw format changes every 10 years. I'll buy blu ray or HD in 2020. Which will be right around the time the Government finally makes everyone make everything in High Def. Until then there is no reason for it at all.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

I'll buy blu ray or HD in 2020. Which will be right around the time the Government finally makes everyone make everything in High Def. Until then there is no reason for it at all.

So you're saying no one should bother with HD unless everyone has HD? If companies waited for the government to mandate everything before supporting it, we probably wouldn't even have AM radio, much less HD television.

[Adam Blue]

The cost of manufacturing a DVD layer and then gluing it to the Blu-Ray layer.


It's not. It's actually this coating (http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+this+DVD/2100-1041_3-5455621.html).


And while BluRay might seem scratch resistant, the problem is that the laser will read 0.1mm under the surface, while HDDVD is 0.6mm. So BluRay is paying more for protection, but in the end it's just the same.

So there's more money right there. Also size of gigs issue shouldn't be a big deal right now. I don't think anyone really has to worry about the space.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

So there's more money right there.

This has been brought up before, but again: the cost difference will probably make next to no difference so far as the end user is concerned. The HD-DVD camp is going to charge as much as the market will bear, no more and no less. The media cost is hardly a major determinant of the final retail price; I think CD has illustrated this pretty well.

[mister_slim]

So there's more money right there. Also size of gigs issue shouldn't be a big deal right now. I don't think anyone really has to worry about the space.
I like the Blu-Ray's potential maximum of 200 gigs, personally.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Apple is backing Blu-Ray, and will probably be shipping them in PowerMacs. One of the few groups that really needs large, writeable storage is people working with video and HD video, and many of them use Macs. If people are using Blu-Ray for rough cuts it should speed uptake.

[Kelegacy]

Apple is backing BR? Well, that's something I hadn't heard. Seals the deal for me then. The media will survive.

[TrackZero]

wow

i never realized us consumers had such strong opinions regarding disc type

especially before these disc types are really available to... consumers

polls suck my balls

Well said.

Fuck both standards. DVD is fine. Developers who want high def CGI movies can also suck my balls.

[Kagger]

i'm sure i was told it was pr0n that won that particular round - though undoubtedly that was related 2 cost - all the pr0n studios used VHS, so it was bound 2 win... might b wrong, though.

You are correct, My sister is an RTF Major, and she learned that in class

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

That's an urban legend. Porn was available for both VHS and Beta. Beta died because it cost slightly more, offered no significant quality increase (even many videophiles couldn't see a difference and innovations like Beta Hi-Fi were usually matched by VHS shortly thereafter), and the recording time was shorter (six hours for VHS vs. 4 1/2 hours for Beta).

[bobbler]

I can't imagine more porn movies are purchased than normal movies. It doesn't even make sense. The porn industry may be fairly big, but it doesn't have enough weight to do much of anything. Now days, if you don't see it at Walmart it doesn't have a chance at consumer adoption.

There is a reason porn has such low production value... With that, I don't think porn will jump on either new hi-def format -- it is better for them to not have hi definition, most porn people aren't exactly good looking without the SD-TV fuzziness.

[Kamalot]

GameSpot looked into this study, thet Bluray was preferred by customers and here is what they found...

The responses in the survey were from a selective series of questions only...responses to questions about whether a generic next-generation disc format (which just happened to have Blu-Ray's feature set) sounded like an improvement over ordinary DVDs, assuming they were roughly equivalent in price (big surprise, they did). However, manufacturers will need to overhaul existing factories in order to accommodate Blu-Ray production, and that cost of upgrading is expected to be passed onto the consumer for as much as an extra $10 per Blu-ray Disc (BD).

So it looks like consumers like the IDEA of the Capabilities of Bluray when compared to DVDs, not HD-DVD. Also, this is assuming there is no cost difference, which GameSpot claims isn't true at least for factories which is expected to be passed onto consumers as well.

The study was also funded by the bluray association.

The whole thing is a shady pack of lies.


http://www.gametab.com/news/322043/

[mister_slim]

So it looks like consumers like the IDEA of the Capabilities of Bluray when compared to DVDs, not HD-DVD. Also, this is assuming there is no cost difference, which GameSpot claims isn't true at least for factories which is expected to be passed onto consumers as well.

The study was also funded by the bluray association.

The whole thing is a shady pack of lies.
To be honest, I don't see any source for the assertion that Blu-Ray will cost considerably more. Well, other than constant repetition.