Guerrilla MD: "Blu-ray is for Games, not Movies"

[fitbabits]

Adding yet more fuel to the fanboy fire, Guerrilla's managing director, in an interview excerpt over at CVG (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=171290), claims that Blu-ray is needed for games, not movies. Also, he claims that Killzone 2 would not be possible on competing machines!

"We are taking huge advantage of the architecture of PS3. I firmly believe that what we've shown we can get out of that machine would be difficult, if not impossible, to deliver on a competing machine."

---

"If you're not willing to make that investment then you're going to lose out on some options. To make it simple, the Xbox 360 doesn't have SixAxis or Blu-ray. PlayStation 3 does. And for us that's a really big thing. The level you've just seen is 2GB. We really need Blu-ray to make the game. I don't know how you could fit it on Xbox 360 without taking some shortcuts."

And that's not the first time 360's DVD format has been called into question.

Hulst continued, "Blu-ray isn't important for watching movies; we need it for making games."
Gah! I guess if we're told often enough about the importance of SIXAXIS and Blu-ray, then we'll start to believe it for ourselves.

One thing he's right about, though, is that there's no way Killzone 2 could be done on Nintendo's Wii.

[The Great Gatsby]

It can be done on the Wii... just dumb down the graphics, have a vastly superior control method and there you go.

[Rune_74]

This is so much bullshit from a company that is basically a sony company...yeah...bioshock is calling your name.

[Esquilax1138]

Could be done easier and better graphics on a PC. Or any console with a big enough hard drive. Installing to hard drive is always better then loading from an optical disc. I really don't mind swapping a disc once to install a game.

[Phhhh]

How many unique environments does Bioshock have?

[biosc1]

Sixaxis sucks. There, I've contributed to this thread.

To clarify. So far in my gaming experience with the PS3, I have yet to encounter a use of the sixaxis control scheme that I wouldn't rather use the sticks for. Most uses so far have been "gimmicky" in my mind. Though, I should clarify that I've yet to try Warhawk.

As for the storage, I'm not entirely sure about that one. I suppose if you leave it uncompressed you might be able to stream it faster? Hence, the larger size? (I'm ignorant on that technical aspect).

[Morangie]

I recall the same things being said by Factor 5. Someone remind me how that turned out?

[rein]

I think in a year to two he could be proven right. To be honest, I do not care about HD or Blu-ray movies. I do not have a 1080p TV so upscaled DVD's work fine for me. The only reason I would opt to buy the movie on Blu-ray is if it is the same price or has additional features. If anything, he should know if they could or could not put the game out on a regular DVD without cutting corners. What remains to be seen, is if the game is worth it.

[bKangy]

2gb of brown textures :P

[Schnoogs]

Two DVDs for the win

[fitbabits]

2gb of brown textures :P

This is NOT Metal Gear Solid 4 we're talking about. Take your trolling elsewhere. :rolleyes:

[Grifter]

Some one should point out the shitty texture quality (comparatively) of Killzone2 to this Douche bag before he goes and makes a bigger ass of himself. KZ2 has shown us nothing at this point that comes even close to warranting all these masturbatory comments.

Translation:
"We are so shitty at what we do we need 5x the space for a game of half the quality, so yeah WE couldn't make Killzone 2 for any other console, I am sure a good developer could though."

[bKangy]

You know, :P generally means I'm just being silly. I still contend blu ray isn't needed though, they're probably not compressing things properly to make those kinds of statements. Bioshock, Halo 3 etc seem to fit well enough on one disc and are on a visual par.

[Norse]

Let's hope they set aside some of those GBs for interesting gameplay.

[DangerousDaze]

When they paused the opening "FMV" with your character on his way down to the planet on a lander, disconnected the camera and zoomed off for miles into what initially looked like pre-rendered background only to find out was actually 2GB of level data, I was impressed.

Of course later on when the charge detonated on the door and your team didnt' even step out of the way before it went off, and the bad guys just walked around not even bothering to look at you while you shot the crap out of them, not so much. :p

[Norse]

After playing Bioshock, a 20h game with great gfx and sounds, I don't see how DVD will hold X360 back that much. A game like Bioshock could be released on 2 or more DVDs without degrading the experience.

[Siraris]

Some one should point out the shitty texture quality (comparatively) of Killzone2 to this Douche bag before he goes and makes a bigger ass of himself. KZ2 has shown us nothing at this point that comes even close to warranting all these masturbatory comments.

Translation:
"We are so shitty at what we do we need 5x the space for a game of half the quality, so yeah WE couldn't make Killzone 2 for any other console, I am sure a good developer could though."

You can't be that much of an trolling idiot. You're just trying to incite responses for fun, right? You don't honestly mean most of the stuff you post.

[Wolvie]

Ya know what Sony sounds like? The guy that tries to convince his girlfriend that his Hummer wasn't bought because of the need to "compensate" for something. ;)

[Siraris]

Ya know what Sony sounds like? The guy that tries to convince his girlfriend that his Hummer wasn't bought because of the need to "compensate" for something. ;)

Do you know what you sound like? A broken record of hyperbole, because you can't think of anything more positive to bring to a discussion.

[DangerousDaze]

/edit - oops! It really has been a long day and it's my reading comprehension that's in the shitter!

[Yellowman]

Help! I'm stuck in a maze of twisting flamewars, all alike.

[Morangie]

Except this isn't Sony's statement. What is wrong with everyone tonight? Did everyone's reading comprehension take a day off, too?
Sony own Guerilla. So yes, this is a Sony statement, surprisingly saying that bluray is needed for games. Can't imagine why they would say that.

[DeadlyDonkey]

Wow, since when did people start kicking ass on EvAv?

I swear weeks ago this thread would have been 90% troll posts by Xbox fans, but now people are actually putting them down, effectively too!

[Sl1pstream]

How many unique environments does Bioshock have?

Have you actually played the first killzone? ;p

Shellshock was horrible so they could be right. Maybe they can't make great games for competing platforms?

[Rune_74]

Do you know what you sound like? A broken record of hyperbole, because you can't think of anything more positive to bring to a discussion.


Blue ray is the awesome...that what you are lookin for?:P

These guys aren't a good reference point for anything sony/ms related due to them basically being in sony's pocket...they know who pays the bills.

[DangerousDaze]

Sony own Guerilla. So yes, this is a Sony statement, surprisingly saying that bluray is needed for games. Can't imagine why they would say that.

Damn, I thought I caught it in time. See my edit on the previous page - I've already conceded that point. ;)

[Wolvie]

Do you know what you sound like? A broken record of hyperbole, because you can't think of anything more positive to bring to a discussion.

You know what you sound like? A crybaby that certainly doesn't bring anything to a conversation.

[Dirty Harry]

What i find funny is all the people who support compression, hey smart guys and girls, COMPRESSION = ARTIFACTING.

[temmink]

You know what you sound like? A crybaby that certainly doesn't bring anything to a conversation.

Petty.


would be difficult, if not impossible, to deliver on a competing machine

Yawn. Show us why.

[JazGalaxy]

I think comments like these are dubious.

It seems to me like a suburban housewife complaining about how she NEEDS an SUV to raise a child. How else, she would argue, could you haul the stroller, the portable crib, the diaper bag, the formula bag, the baby basket, the toys, and still have enough room to sit.

Then one points out people who have ot make due with smaller cars simply pack more efficiently and eliminate excess. They design their travel better and therefore raise a baby equally well, if not better for it's lack of over indulgence.

If developres stuff 10 gigs of textures into a game... well... sure it can't be done on 360. But that doesn't mean that clever developers cant' make a far more engaging game with less space due simply to proper planning.

[Wolvie]

Petty.

He's no less petty, fight fire with fire. I gave an honest criticism, he attacked me because he didn't like my opinion. I call em like I see em.

What i find funny is all the people who support compression, hey smart guys and girls, COMPRESSION = ARTIFACTING.

True, thats why I always said that anything that can't fit on a disk should be made available as DLC. Either on a disk or as a download.

I think comments like these are dubious.

It seems to me like a suburban housewife complaining about how she NEEDS an SUV to raise a child. How else, she would argue, could you haul the stroller, the portable crib, the diaper bag, the formula bag, the baby basket, the toys, and still have enough room to sit.

Then one points out people who have ot make due with smaller cars simply pack more efficiently and eliminate excess. They design their travel better and therefore raise a baby equally well, if not better for it's lack of over indulgence.

If developres stuff 10 gigs of textures into a game... well... sure it can't be done on 360. But that doesn't mean that clever developers cant' make a far more engaging game with less space due simply to proper planning.

Wasn't that the argument people used with the PS2? Look how well that system did, and it had graphical limitations, and guess what? No one cared. Give me good games, who gives a shit about disk space.

[theCurse]

How many unique environments does Bioshock have?
Six. They are all under water, but each area has its own unique style. One is even a park complete with grass and trees.

[Dirty Harry]

True, thats why I always said that anything that can't fit on a disk should be made available as DLC. Either on a disk or as a download.

This is one reason i support the blu-ray, come on now, you honestly cant argue me that having more space is a bad thing.

[Yellowman]

I think comments like these are dubious.

It seems to me like a suburban housewife complaining about how she NEEDS an SUV to raise a child. How else, she would argue, could you haul the stroller, the portable crib, the diaper bag, the formula bag, the baby basket, the toys, and still have enough room to sit.

Then one points out people who have ot make due with smaller cars simply pack more efficiently and eliminate excess. They design their travel better and therefore raise a baby equally well, if not better for it's lack of over indulgence.


This reminds me of an old joke, what's the difference between an SUV and a hedgehog (or porcupine)?

Well, a hegehog has it's pricks on the outside...

[UnderHero5]

More leg room is better. Can't really argue that.



Wait, this is EvAv, of course people can argue that; what am I saying!?

[Krispy]

What i find funny is all the people who support compression, hey smart guys and girls, COMPRESSION = ARTIFACTING.

Not necessarily. There are multiple techniques for lossless compression or transparent compression. Compression doesn't have to imply artifacts.

[Wolvie]

This is one reason i support the blu-ray, come on now, you honestly cant argue me that having more space is a bad thing.

No, but in the end, if a game ends up being slightly smaller, but more fun then a huge game that sucks because the developer couldn't stay focused, guess which one I'll pick?
It's like picking Two Worlds over Bioshock because one game is bigger then the other. Not. Gonna. Happen.

[Dirty Harry]

No, but in the end, if a game ends up being slightly smaller, but more fun then a huge game that sucks because the developer couldn't stay focused, guess which one I'll pick?
It's like picking Two Worlds over Bioshock because one game is bigger then the other. Not. Gonna. Happen.

ive never equated game media size with quality.

I do equate game media size with possiblity.


Imagine a GTA game with an almost erie live like radio, that will report of actions happening in the game. Or just say a days worth of music or more. Im just giving very bad examples here but im sure you gather my gist here.

[Wolvie]

ive never equated game media size with quality.

I do equate game media size with possiblity.


Imagine a GTA game with an almost erie live like radio, that will report of actions happening in the game. Or just say a days worth of music or more. Im just giving very bad examples here but im sure you gather my gist here.

Oh sure, size of media does not guarantee quality. Look at Lair, look at two Worlds, it's what the developer does that counts, the quality they put into game, not the media they use.

[rjcc]

Yeah, I'm sure they can make a game like tha,t and when it comes out in 10 years we'll all have great fun playing it.

[UnderHero5]

No, but in the end, if a game ends up being slightly smaller, but more fun then a huge game that sucks because the developer couldn't stay focused, guess which one I'll pick?
It's like picking Two Worlds over Bioshock because one game is bigger then the other. Not. Gonna. Happen.
A game having a larger file size doesn't necessarily mean it's a larger game world. Having the extra disc space can help with things like more/better quality audio, more varied textures (not necessarily sharper textures), extra features (ala Stranglehold and the included movie), etc.

Of course, it could also be used like you said, to make a game world larger than would be possible on a single DVD, and not having to deal with swapping discs, etc.
I don't know why you automatically assume that because a games file size is bigger that it would be a worse game. Besides, Two Worlds and Bioshock have a similar file size, do they not?

Equally, having more disc space does NOT mean the games will be better, but it DOES give the developers more options if they need the extra space. It means less compromises on their games.

Cartridges became to small when CDs came around. CDs became to small when DVDs became popular. DVDs WILL become to small at some point. It's beginning to happen now.

That doesn't mean there won't be amazing games on DVDs, but eventually we will move completely away from them for our game media, and that's already starting to happen. It's not something that happens over night.

Hell, it took until about a year and a half ago for most PC games to have a DVD version. They still came on 5 cds. Just because they CAN fit the same game on something smaller, doesn't mean that's the better option.

It's sad that some of you refuse to see the benefit of more disc space, simply because of a bias.

More disc space can help, just as the extra ram that the 360 is able to access can help.

A great game can some in any size, but some games might require more space to get to what the creator had in mind.

More space is GOOD. The end.

[Phhhh]

Six. They are all under water, but each area has its own unique style. One is even a park complete with grass and trees.

Ooh. I played through the demo, the demo is awesome. (it was an honest question btw)

[Narcissus]

This is one reason i support the blu-ray, come on now, you honestly cant argue me that having more space is a bad thing.Just to play devil's advocate, that extra space accounts for some part of a $200 price increase over the 360 which many feel is a bad thing. :p

[oldjadedgamer]

Blu-Ray and Sixaxis isn't needed... not at the extra cost it adds to the system. First party published titles Lair and Heavenly Sword prove this. Not only that, Warhawk seems to be the most fun so far and that's a downloadable game. No need for 25 gigs. Sony has yet to release a first party title that shows the "Blu-Ray" difference.

People aren't debating on if more space is better, what people debate is if it was worth the extra cost it added to the system.

[dirtbag]

What i find funny is all the people who support compression, hey smart guys and girls, COMPRESSION = ARTIFACTING.

Valid point -- no matter how awesome your compression is, you're going to lose something doing. Even if you feel that the PS3 should be relegated to the job of toilet-seat warmer, you have to acknowledge the benefit of having the capacity to put a game on 1 BR, instead of 2, 3, or more DVDs.

That being said, Sony is teh sUck!:p

[Wolvie]

More space is GOOD. The end.

But not NECESSARY, the end.

[Krispy]

Anyone claiming Bluray has a negative affect on games (Wolvie) is being short sighted. There is nothing bad about having 54GB's of usable disc space. Aside from the cost of entry, the medium itself doesn't cost anymore than DVD9's. What people like Wolvie are doing is confusing the argument necessity. In this generation Bluray has a steep entry cost and it hasn't yet proven that the additional space is pivotal to a greater experience other then allowing for a larger texture base, or uncompressed PCM, or any other effects that developers have disregarded since forever as being impractical because of distribution. Well, now its not so hard to distribute 54GB's of data. It just costs a lot at the moment.

So in summary, Bluray may not be necessary at the moment, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

Edit: Looks like a few seconds between typing and sending my topic made it obsolete :o.

[oldjadedgamer]

It is interesting to point out that Guerrilla made a better game with less space. According to Gamerankings.com Killzone 1 scored less then Killzone PSP. 9 gigs versus 1 gig and they made a better game with a lesser system.

[Wolvie]

Anyone claiming Bluray has a negative affect on games (Wolvie) is being short sighted. There is nothing bad about having 54GB's of usable disc space. Aside from the cost of entry, the medium itself doesn't cost anymore than DVD9's. What people like Wolvie are doing is confusing the argument necessity. In this generation Bluray has a steep entry cost and it hasn't yet proven that the additional space is pivotal to a greater experience other then allowing for a larger texture base, or uncompressed PCM, or any other effects that developers have disregarded since forever as being impractical because of distribution. Well, now its not so hard to distribute 54GB's of data. It just costs a lot at the moment.

So in summary, Bluray may not be necessary at the moment, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

Edit: Looks like a few seconds between typing and sending my topic made it obsolete :o.

Whoa whoa mother fuckin whoa! When did I say BR has a negative effect on gaming? I simply said it wasn't necessarly needed to make great games. Get your facts straight before you make a comment like that.

Besides I didn't confuse anything, sounds like I agree with you, your saying disk space hasn't proved itself necessary, I said the same thing. Perhaps I'm not the one confusing the issue here. ;)

[UnderHero5]

But not NECESSARY, the end.

Well no crap. A fucking video game console itself isn't NECESSARY, but that doesn't stop it from being a good thing!

I never said it was NEEDED. In fact, I'm pretty sure I implied that it is NOT needed. That said, it IS a valuable thing for developers, and IS necessary for some of them to achieve the visions they might have for their games.

CDs weren't NECESSARY either. Games on cartridge were still fun (and still are on my DS).
With the added space, developers can potentially do more with their games.

Any one arguing against that is a moron, plain and simple.

[f1sh3r]

Do you know what you sound like? A broken record of hyperbole, because you can't think of anything more positive to bring to a discussion.

SDF assemble!

[rein]

SDF assemble!
well... ...that never gets old. :rolleyes:

[f1sh3r]

well... ...that never gets old. :rolleyes:

it's a holiday. the day siriousius adds something of value to a discussion is the day you'll stop hearing about the SDF.

[UnderHero5]

It is interesting to point out that Guerrilla made a better game with less space. According to Gamerankings.com Killzone 1 scored less then Killzone PSP. 9 gigs versus 1 gig and they made a better game with a lesser system.

You're still going back to that "more space = better game" train of thought.
No one here, including Guerrilla, is saying that the more space they use, the better their game will be.
All that's being said is that there are things you can do with more disk space, that you wouldn't be able to do with less.

An example that comes to mind for me, on a different console, is the game DJ Max on PSP. It uses almost an entire UMD, which is full of music for the game. It simply would not be possible to put that on the DS, without compressing the audio so much that you wouldn't even be able to hear what the song was, or making them all midi.
It would fundamentally change the game. Even thought it could technically be done, it wouldn't be the same game. Some times more space is simply needed, to achieve a goal they set out for.

[Dirty Harry]

SDF assemble!

BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED I AM,
http://www.lasplash.com/uploads/1/r1952857411.jpg

[Wolvie]

Well no crap. A fucking video game console itself isn't NECESSARY, but that doesn't stop it from being a good thing!

I never said it was NEEDED. In fact, I'm pretty sure I implied that it is NOT needed. That said, it IS a valuable thing for developers, and IS necessary for some of them to achieve the visions they might have for their games.

CDs weren't NECESSARY either. Games on cartridge were still fun (and still are on my DS).
With the added space, developers can potentially do more with their games.

Any one arguing against that is a moron, plain and simple.

My point being, is that developers never seem to have a problem with the media their using to achieve their dream games, it's more a hardware limitation, like lack of processing. You can have all the space in the world and it won't mean jack if the system can't process that info.

Is a bigger disk a bad thing? No, is it needed? Not necessarily, is it nice to have? Sure, but I have yet to see any evidence that a DVD9 is a hindrance(outside of a developer complaining once or twice) on the games they make.
Like some have said, a PC game can exist on 5 CD's or a single DVD and the experience is just as good on either media. The same thing applies to consoles. The only difference is ya might have to swap a disk on a console(big deal), or use DLC to get the content onto your console that couldn't fit on the disk(I have yet to see that happen).

It's all about quality, not disk space. Not yet anyways.

[Draft]

So far I am not really feeling the Blu Ray advantage. We've got stuff like Lair and Resistance using 20+ gigs of space and looking like Xbox 360 games. They're not stupid varied in terms of enemies or backgrounds, the sound isn't noticeably better, and the games aren't' especially long. So where's the advantage?

[Podfork]

God, it always comes down to "not bashing Sony = you belong to a nice little group called SDF so we can mock you without actually making any sort of counterpoint". It's a smart move if everyone around you has the playground mentality to appreciate it. Not so smart otherwise.

A few hundred years ago, the same thing was happening. Except it was with people crying "Burn the witch!" when they heard a contrary view.

In a few hundred years we've gone from burning to flaming. Wow, that's progress! It's a great example of the sort of open-mindedness and forward thinking on display in 'discussions' like this and good 'ol 16th century witchunting. :rolleyes:

As for anyone arguing about how greater capacity can't or won't yield greater benefits that they regard as worthwhile - I sure hope you're doing it on a 320x240 12" mono monitor using your 33.6 baud dial-up modem and, when you're done, you go back to your text adventures like Zork.

Right?

Right.

[Shodan2020]

Do you know what you sound like? A broken record of hyperbole, because you can't think of anything more positive to bring to a discussion.

I'm positively glad I don't own a PS3. :)

There. I said it. :D

[Draft]

Astute observation. Good analogy. Fat white men fighting on the internet IS a lot like the Salem witch trials.

[Schnoogs]

What i find funny is all the people who support compression, hey smart guys and girls, COMPRESSION = ARTIFACTING.

What's even funnier are those who have never heard of Lossless Compression ;)

[lockwoodx]

I'm glad I'm skipping this generation

[BlackPete]

Valid point -- no matter how awesome your compression is, you're going to lose something doing.

Ahem. Lossless compression. Look it up.

[Dirty Harry]

What's even funnier are those who have never heard of Lossless Compression ;)

Which is complete bullshit....but not at the same time. i geuss its all dependant on the application of lossless comp, some date types are excellent for use while others still have either hickups or are just not suitable.

[Schnoogs]

Which is complete bullshit....

The fact that they've never heard of it? I agree! :p

Lossless Compression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_data_compression)

[Dukefrukem]

It can be done on the Wii... just dumb down the graphics, have a vastly superior control method and there you go.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[cp#]

The SIXAXIS is bullshit. I've played the games, it sucks. Motorstorm with tilt controls on is total shit. I still remember them announcing the tilt controls... oh Sony.

As for Blu-Ray, we get it already. It can hold more stuff. Killzone 2 could be done on the 360 and PC.

[Dirty Harry]

The fact that they've never heard of it? I agree! :p

Lossless Compression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_data_compression)

Care to re-read my post smartass.


Protip: Im very familar with lossless compression with all the music albums i convert into lossless for maxium audio quality with 1/3 of a full size rip of music.

[Wolvie]

So far I am not really feeling the Blu Ray advantage. We've got stuff like Lair and Resistance using 20+ gigs of space and looking like Xbox 360 games. They're not stupid varied in terms of enemies or backgrounds, the sound isn't noticeably better, and the games aren't' especially long. So where's the advantage?

Podfork, read the above quote and you'll get it. And just because someone doesn't believe that a larger disk format doesn't benefit gaming(yet) doesn't equate them to a witch burning fucktard, it simply means they aren't convinced(yet). The games we've seen(so far) have no difference. When I see a cross-platform game for the PS3 benefit from the larger disk space, I will change my mind. I'm not gonna go off the deep end and declare BR a needed thing with no evidence to back it up.

[Schnoogs]

Care to re-read my post smartass.

Kind of hard to do when you posted your EDIT after I responded :rolleyes:

[UnderHero5]

My point being, is that developers never seem to have a problem with the media their using to achieve their dream games, it's more a hardware limitation, like lack of processing. You can have all the space in the world and it won't mean jack if the system can't process that info.

Is a bigger disk a bad thing? No, is it needed? Not necessarily, is it nice to have? Sure, but I have yet to see any evidence that a DVD9 is a hindrance(outside of a developer complaining once or twice) on the games they make.
Like some have said, a PC game can exist on 5 CD's or a single DVD and the experience is just as good on either media. The same thing applies to consoles. The only difference is ya might have to swap a disk on a console(big deal), or use DLC to get the content onto your console that couldn't fit on the disk(I have yet to see that happen).

It's all about quality, not disk space. Not yet anyways.
Actually, I think it was I who brought up the 5 cds vs 1 DVD thing on PC.
I never said they were the same experience.
I actually implied that 5 cd's wasn't the better option...
Hell, it took until about a year and a half ago for most PC games to have a DVD version. They still came on 5 cds. Just because they CAN fit the same game on something smaller, doesn't mean that's the better option.

The game is the same, yes, but the convenience is NOT. Consoles are all about convenience. On PC you'll install the game and be done with it. That doesn't happen on consoles, and the 360 wouldn't be prepared for that, even if it were to happen. Assuming a game is too big to fit on a single DVD, then it would be at least two DVD's. Allowing theg ame to be installed would mean it takes up AT LEAST half of the 360's 20gb HDD (I believe only, what, 11gb is actually available for use? Could be 16, I'm not sure).
Point is, that's not really an option. Which kind of rules out downloading 8gb's for a game too. Both take away convenience, and would be impossible for a person without a HDD (which there are many of).

Sure, but I have yet to see any evidence that a DVD9 is a hindrance(outside of a developer complaining once or twice) on the games they make.
I've seen at least 3 devs complain about the size of DVD now. If that isn't evidence that they are getting to small, then what is? What kind of evidence are you looking for, exactly?

Developers will worth with what they have. I've never seen the Developer of a DS complain about the cart size, but that doesn't mean they don't have problems fitting what they want on it, or that they haven't made certain compromises with their games.

Hearing devs actually speak out about lack of space, even if only a few, really says something to me.

It's all about quality, not disk space. Not yet anyways.
Yet, indeed. In two years time (a lot of time, in the world of PC's/consoles) you will really be seeing the limitations of DVDs. I already see them on my PC. When I've got a 1 terrabyte hard drive, and only a DVD 9, at max, to back up my data... I can see the limitations of DVD pretty damn clearly.

When most games take up almost an entire DVD 9, it's safe to say devs are running out of leg room. Most newer games on 360 DO take up almost an entire DVD 9, from what I've seen.

However, I have to say, it will ALWAYS be about quality. Always.

[Podfork]

Astute observation. Good analogy. Fat white men fighting on the internet IS a lot like the Salem witch trials.

Fair point. I think folk who like to be so deliberately obtuse give Salem a bad name.

Seriously, it's like a goddamn digital jihad with you guys but you're so wrapped up with burning flags in your holy war you can't see which of you are terrorists and which of you are allies.

The knee-jerk mentality that WHATEVER the enemy/heathen/wrong religion says is WRONG and MUST BE ARGUED AS WORTHLESS or NOT IMPORTANT TO YOUR WAY OF LIFE is a fucking tragedy. Half of you would actually get on with one another if you could stop arguing about boxes of lifeless silicon.

[Dirty Harry]

Kind of hard to do when you posted your EDIT after I responded :rolleyes:

I do it all the time, check the last post.

[Schnoogs]

Which is complete bullshit....but not at the same time. i geuss its all dependant on the application of lossless comp, some date types are excellent for use while others still have either hickups or are just not suitable.

I guess I don't understand your post...lossless algorithms are pretty mature at this point in time and unless there are processor limitations they work perfectly well.

[UnderHero5]

Podfork, read the above quote and you'll get it. And just because someone doesn't believe that a larger disk format doesn't benefit gaming(yet) doesn't equate them to a witch burning fucktard, it simply means they aren't convinced(yet). The games we've seen(so far) have no difference. When I see a cross-platform game for the PS3 benefit from the larger disk space, I will change my mind. I'm not gonna go off the deep end and declare BR a needed thing with no evidence to back it up.

Cross platform developers aren't usually the ones to take advantage of a consoles specifics though. So you'll very likely NOT see that evidence for a long time, from a cross platform developer.

All the best games, which really take advantage of hardware, are usually platform specific (Halo, God Of War, etc, etc).

[BlackPete]

Which is complete bullshit....but not at the same time. i geuss its all dependant on the application of lossless comp, some date types are excellent for use while others still have either hickups or are just not suitable.

If you end up with artifacts after compression, then that is by definition not lossless.

Lossless compression isn't exactly a myth like the unicorn ;)

[Morangie]

God, it always comes down to "not bashing Sony = you belong to a nice little group called SDF so we can mock you without actually making any sort of counterpoint". It's a smart move if everyone around you has the playground mentality to appreciate it. Not so smart otherwise.

A few hundred years ago, the same thing was happening. Except it was with people crying "Burn the witch!" when they heard a contrary view.

In a few hundred years we've gone from burning to flaming. Wow, that's progress! It's a great example of the sort of open-mindedness and forward thinking on display in 'discussions' like this and good 'ol 16th century witchunting. :rolleyes:

As for anyone arguing about how greater capacity can't or won't yield greater benefits that they regard as worthwhile - I sure hope you're doing it on a 320x240 12" mono monitor using your 33.6 baud dial-up modem and, when you're done, you go back to your text adventures like Zork.

Right?

Right.
Fair point. I think folk who like to be so deliberately obtuse give Salem a bad name.

Seriously, it's like a goddamn digital jihad with you guys but you're so wrapped up with burning flags in your holy war you can't see which of you are terrorists and which of you are allies.

The knee-jerk mentality that WHATEVER the enemy/heathen/wrong religion says is WRONG and MUST BE ARGUED AS WORTHLESS or NOT IMPORTANT TO YOUR WAY OF LIFE is a fucking tragedy. Half of you would actually get on with one another if you could stop arguing about boxes of lifeless silicon.
Podfork: making the rest of the Sony fanboys look reasonable since Jully 2006.

Say what you like about Siraris, at least he never compares criticising Sony to burning people alive and terrorism.

As for Blu-Ray, we get it already. It can hold more stuff. Killzone 2 could be done on the 360 and PC.
It could be done but why would we want it to be? Guerrilla Games hardly have a great track record. Let them have all the space they can fill to make another mediocre FPS; the PS3 certainly has a shortage of overhyped crap right now.

I've seen at least 3 devs complain about the size of DVD now. If that isn't evidence that they are getting to small, then what is? What kind of evidence are you looking for, exactly?
Several non-Sony owned developers complaining about DVD would be nice. I have a feeling these Sony developers have a slight bias when it comes to bluray. Don't ask me why.

[Draft]

Fair point. I think folk who like to be so deliberately obtuse give Salem a bad name.

Seriously, it's like a goddamn digital jihad with you guys but you're so wrapped up with burning flags in your holy war you can't see which of you are terrorists and which of you are allies.

The knee-jerk mentality that WHATEVER the enemy/heathen/wrong religion says is WRONG and MUST BE ARGUED AS WORTHLESS or NOT IMPORTANT TO YOUR WAY OF LIFE is a fucking tragedy. Half of you would actually get on with one another if you could stop arguing about boxes of lifeless silicon.You're right. Jihad is a better metaphor.

[torrefaction]

H.264 says hi, Harry.

[bapenguin]

I'm so tired of this...from all angles.

[BlackPete]

...

That's quite an amazing variety of emotion spilled over a mega corporation selling a video game system :)

Relax man! It's not like Sony's going anywhere just because they got called a few names.

[Grifter]

You can't be that much of an trolling idiot. You're just trying to incite responses for fun, right? You don't honestly mean most of the stuff you post.

Uh oh! Looks like some one got sand in their pussy again. Do me a favor, grab some douche, wash that sand out, shut the fuck up and listen.

I mean it 100%, the overall texture quality on the PS3 has been average at best and KZ2 is no different. As soon as you get within a few feet of almost any object the textures look flat and blurry. This is an issue the PS3 will have to cope with because of how Sony organized RAM distribution, they made a similar Mistake with the PS2. I don't care how much room is on the disc if the internal hardware can't take advantage of it who the fuck cares!?!

I am not knocking the art direction or saying that KZ2 is in any way ugly because it's not but it is also not any where near good enough for these douche bags to be talking about it like it's the second coming. A good developer can easily make a game better looking and just as big as KZ2 and fit it on a DVD-9. These guys are talking shit, I know it, you know it and the rest of EvAv knows it. As far as compression goes it only causes artifacts if it is done poorly. We have been playing compressed games since the first 3D games has it ever been a real issue? No it hasn't and it wont become one now.

I also have no problem with Blu-ray in general or a larger format but to keep saying that the PS3 will have better game because of it is just fucking retarded. If the PS3 had 1gig of RAM, half for system and half for Video then having a larger media format for things beside extra video and multiple language tracks would definitely be needed.

I just don't think Blu-ray is as big of a deal this generation as these ass hats are pretending it to be.

I do think the Sixaxis is shit and I couldn't care less about it, to flaunt that as a feature just makes me want to shove it your ass.

[silv]

Can someone please point to a game on Blu-Ray that is qualitatively different than one on DVD? Because I have yet to see one. I have seen the horrific load times on Motorstorm though.

Also, SIXAXIS is shit. Motorstorm? Lair?

[Hemalin]

Several non-Sony owned developers complaining about DVD would be nice. I have a feeling these Sony developers have a slight bias when it comes to bluray. Don't ask me why.
Does Mark Rein count? (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34332&highlight=unreal+tournament)

[Wolvie]

Actually, I think it was I who brought up the 5 cds vs 1 DVD thing on PC.
I never said they were the same experience.
I actually implied that 5 cd's wasn't the better option...


The game is the same, yes, but the convenience is NOT. Consoles are all about convenience. On PC you'll install the game and be done with it. That doesn't happen on consoles, and the 360 wouldn't be prepared for that, even if it were to happen. Assuming a game is too big to fit on a single DVD, then it would be at least two DVD's. Allowing theg ame to be installed would mean it takes up AT LEAST half of the 360's 20gb HDD (I believe only, what, 11gb is actually available for use? Could be 16, I'm not sure).
Point is, that's not really an option. Which kind of rules out downloading 8gb's for a game too. Both take away convenience, and would be impossible for a person without a HDD (which there are many of).


I've seen at least 3 devs complain about the size of DVD now. If that isn't evidence that they are getting to small, then what is? What kind of evidence are you looking for, exactly?

Developers will worth with what they have. I've never seen the Developer of a DS complain about the cart size, but that doesn't mean they don't have problems fitting what they want on it, or that they haven't made certain compromises with their games.

Hearing devs actually speak out about lack of space, even if only a few, really says something to me.


Yet, indeed. In two years time (a lot of time, in the world of PC's/consoles) you will really be seeing the limitations of DVDs. I already see them on my PC. When I've got a 1 terrabyte hard drive, and only a DVD 9, at max, to back up my data... I can see the limitations of DVD pretty damn clearly.

When most games take up almost an entire DVD 9, it's safe to say devs are running out of leg room. Most newer games on 360 DO take up almost an entire DVD 9, from what I've seen.

However, I have to say, it will ALWAYS be about quality. Always.

I hate to quote this whole thing, but I can't find a way to cut the fat, cuz there is none. But I do think the fact that an 120 Gig HDD exists could help developers achieve what I talked about... if it's ever needed.

PC games are indeed a different animal, and swapping disks, while installing a game is no big deal to me. Swapping disks on a console like once very 10 hours through a game is no big deal either, to me at least.

But like you said, Dev teams will make due with what they have, and compromises will be made, and the game will be none the worse for it. The Wii, DS (and maybe some day the 360) are proof that a big media format doesn't hinder great games.

Cross platform developers aren't usually the ones to take advantage of a consoles specifics though. So you'll very likely NOT see that evidence for a long time, from a cross platform developer.

All the best games, which really take advantage of hardware, are usually platform specific (Halo, God Of War, etc, etc).

So which means we'll never likely see a real difference. Dev teams will develope games with what they have, and the first party games like you said will be made with the propriety tech in mind, and will end up looking/playing as well as the developer can program.

One thing I will say is this, BR/HD disks probably won't be an issue this generation. Next go around MS at least will need to adopt one of the formats because games will need the space by then.

What it all comes down to is the developer and what they do with what they have. Look at Shadow of the Colossus, Or Metroid Prime hunters. Both fantastic games, and they didn't end up sucking because of the media they were on. All I have to say is, is the quality is what makes the game, not the disk it's on.

[torrefaction]

Having room in the disk is all fine and dandy. It's certainly an advantage for the format. Read times, not so much, but it'll do. The mistake they made is not giving the PS3 enough memory to effectively use the size advantage they have with BluRay to really provide enhanced graphics.

That's one of the 360's big benefits, is the shared memory architecture.

[Podfork]

Podfork, read the above quote and you'll get it.

No. I assure you. I get it.

I see a few people presenting an argument. Then I see an oh-so-original yelp of "SDF" and it's the same dumb mentality. Don't argue. Don't listen. Don't contribute. Just dismiss and ridicule because, if you've got an audience that are receptive to that behaviour, you'll get away with it.

Which is the same as "Burn the Witch!" in my book. And exhibits much of the same mentality from both audience and protagonist.

As for BD, many are simply trying to suggest what it offers is worthless and then attempting to enforce that opinion as inarguable fact whilst proudly displaying their Gamertags in their sigs. That's not really a balanced argument - whatever you may believe.

But, you know, I'm sure some name-calling, semantic arguments and support by like-minded witch-hunters will assure you that one person's opinion is right and the other's is wrong. I fear you missed the broader point of my original post.

[Dirty Harry]

H.264 says hi, Harry.

Well aware of that video codec, infact its great for csi eps dubbed in HDTV :3.

[Darth Sonik]

Sony Budgets

Resistance > $25M
Heavenly Sword > $20M
Lair > $30M
Killzone 2 > $40M

These budgets are not feasible for most third parties.

[Podfork]

Podfork: making the rest of the Sony fanboys look reasonable since Jully 2006.

If you were a little more careful, you'd have taken the time not to prove my point quite so clearly.

Oh well. :rolleyes:

Oh, and here's a nugget of information you might want to remember before you're quick to label someone that expresses an opinion contrary to yours: I own a 360, not a PS3. I also own some objectivity. Try it. It's fun!

Sony Budgets

Resistance > $25M
Heavenly Sword > $20M
Lair > $30M
Killzone 2 > $40M

These budgets are not feasible for most third parties.

Erm, you'll find that sort of ratio applies to all first/second party development. Regardless of platform. The sort of money Nintendo can lavish on DS Pokemon would be something other DS developers can only dream of, for example.

[Wolvie]

No. I assure you. I get it.

I see a few people presenting an argument. Then I see an oh-so-original yelp of "SDF" and it's the same dumb mentality. Don't argue. Don't listen. Don't contribute. Just dismiss and ridicule because, if you've got an audience that are receptive to that behaviour, you'll get away with it.

Which is the same as "Burn the Witch!" in my book. And exhibits much of the same mentality from both audience and protagonist.

As for BD, many are simply trying to suggest what it offers is worthless and then attempting to enforce that opinion as inarguable fact whilst proudly displaying their Gamertags in their sigs. That's not really a balanced argument - whatever you may believe.

But, you know, I'm sure some name-calling, semantic arguments and support by like-minded witch-hunters will assure you that one person's opinion is right and the other's is wrong. I fear you missed the broader point of my original post.

I hear ya and I assure you I'm not dismissing BR, I'm simply not convinced it makes a difference this generation. Having an open mind means to never talk in absolutes. Thats why I'm not saying outright that BR is not needed, I just haven't seen anything that shows that it is needed. If I do see something in the future, my opinion will change. Until then, I'll just keep playing my games and not care what kind of disk my games are pressed on.

[II ZoiD II]

What happen to the notion, Bigger is better?

[Furious Wang]

"If you're not willing to make that investment then you're going to lose out on some options. To make it simple, the Xbox 360 doesn't have SixAxis or Blu-ray. PlayStation 3 does. And for us that's a really big thing. The level you've just seen is 2GB. We really need Blu-ray to make the game. I don't know how you could fit it on Xbox 360 without efficient coding."

edited for accuracy

[digitalErich]

It used to be that Japan was viewed as the pinnacle of efficiency while us ugly American's took the "bigger, faster, stronger is better" mentality. Your fucking with my world view Sony.

[Wolvie]

Not really, Nintendo uses DVD9, and their Japanese. And winning the console war as of right now. Make of that what you will.

[digitalErich]

Not really, Nintendo uses DVD9, and their Japanese. And winning the console war as of right now. Make of that what you will.
Stop ruining my witticisms.

Yes, witticisms.

[Wolvie]

Stop ruining my witticisms.

Yes, witticisms.

I'm just being honest.

[BlackPete]

As for BD, many are simply trying to suggest what it offers is worthless and then attempting to enforce that opinion as inarguable fact whilst proudly displaying their Gamertags in their sigs.

Then please provide a counterargument instead of simply saying that they're being arrogant snobs. They've backed up their argument by pointing out that the PS3 has comparitively lower texture memory to make BR really shine.

What's your counterargument to that?

Nobody's saying that BR is flat out useless -- hell I loved Planet Earth on 1080p -- but it's kinda like having 1000 exobytes HDD space on the PC when you can't really utilize all that space.

[MAbans]

It's not the size of the ship it's the motion of the ocean. Nuff said.

[Gorvi]

We'll see when the game is released if the quality of Killzone 2 matches all the talk it's been getting.

[jacktion]

Well, the sixaxis is not necessary to play this game. It is just thrown in on top of everything. You could do the same game without it.
Blueray is nice but it just lets the devs be lazier with their storage of data. It is no great feat to fill up a huge space with data. If you want to you could fill 40 gigs with a Nintendo 64 game if you really were lazy and inefficient. Plus, the Blueray discs are only marginally bigger than an HDDVD disc. If there isn't enough space for a game on 360 you can just print two discs. They are cheap.
So this is just a fanboy dev trying to drum up support for PS3 so they can sell more copies of Killzone 2 just like Sony ordered them to.

[DarkDaY]

We'll see when the game is released if the quality of Killzone 2 matches all the talk it's been getting.


end thread, well, that is to say, the textures in the game are not that apealing, I was not too into the first game, but I have some faith that this will be a fun game with some very cool wow moments.
imo, its not blueray that sony needed, it was more memory. ram...
now that would have made a huge difference.

I like my shiny textures.

[Bahamut]

Wow, since when did people start kicking ass on EvAv?

I swear weeks ago this thread would have been 90% troll posts by Xbox fans, but now people are actually putting them down, effectively too!

People must've ate it and bought the PS3 on clearance and changed their minds :p

[the soUL TRAder]

Having room in the disk is all fine and dandy. It's certainly an advantage for the format. Read times, not so much, but it'll do. The mistake they made is not giving the PS3 enough memory to effectively use the size advantage they have with BluRay to really provide enhanced graphics.

That's one of the 360's big benefits, is the shared memory architecture.

Ding, Ding, Ding!

Bigger is better!

Especially in things static and performance dependent........like RAM. Come back when Sony can ship games with an extra 25mb of RAM included.

At the same time, the more useful architecture of the 360 could fill 5 disks in half the time it would take a Sony developer to fill one BR.

So, more content is most useful if it can be delivered timely and with a RAM advantage, even if it's on multiple units of delivery media.

[Rain Dogs]

I don't know... while I wouldn't say that BR is a make or break feature this generation, it is definitely useful - textures, video (and I don't just mean cut scenes - animated surfaces, steaming video surfaces etc. can add a lot to an environment), animations, models etc. can all take up pretty big chunks of room - and storing data in an uncompressed format can speed things up. It's definitely a nice feature for PS3 to have for games.

Of course, I don't believe for a second that the motivation for adding it into the system had the slightest thing to do with games.

[bean19]

I'm on the first DVD of Blue Dragon. There are 3 DVDs.

[TrackZero]

It can be done on the Wii... just dumb down the graphics, have a vastly superior control method and there you go.

True enough, and you wouldn't even have to touch the A.I. ;)

[Micasa]

I'm on the first DVD of Blue Dragon. There are 3 DVDs.

Filled with ridiculous amounts of high-def cutscenes. All that really proves is that it doesn't take Blu Ray discs for developers to waste space.

[menage]

Man, blahblahblahblahblah. Why the hell do we need to hear this shit again and again. I really doesn't make me buy a PS3. Just make GoW3 and a new team Ico game and then we'll talk. Until then, shooters a plenty and they don't need Blue-Ray.

[HotCod]

Simple fact is that we will move up to bigger spaced media in games at some point, that point is coming but at the moment the costs don't really balance out with the benefit. Next gen all the consoles will be using some kind of larger medium... i don't say blue ray 'cus there are better things but the idea is the same.

It's also amusing to see people say that the ps3 will have better looking games 'cus they have more space. More space isn't very useful when your console can't put as much texture data on the screen as a 360 can.

[Dukefrukem]

Sony Budgets

Resistance > $25M
Heavenly Sword > $20M
Lair > $30M
Killzone 2 > $40M

These budgets are not feasible for most third parties.

are these accurate? links?

[Dukefrukem]

It used to be that Japan was viewed as the pinnacle of efficiency while us ugly American's took the "bigger, faster, stronger is better" mentality. Your fucking with my world view Sony.

Or it could be that all imported technology lasts longer, is more reliable and more efficient than domestic engineering... 33% failure rate anyone?

[johnymitsu]

Adding yet more fuel to the fanboy fire, Guerrilla's managing director, in an interview excerpt over at CVG (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=171290), claims that Blu-ray is needed for games, not movies. Also, he claims that Killzone 2 would not be possible on competing machines!


Gah! I guess if we're told often enough about the importance of SIXAXIS and Blu-ray, then we'll start to believe it for ourselves.

One thing he's right about, though, is that there's no way Killzone 2 could be done on Nintendo's Wii.

Guerrilla wouldn't be a speck on the gaming worlds ass if sony didn't hype the fuck out of their "alright at best" games and if they hadn't, not only would they not be making this statement, then no one would give a shit, killzone 2 isn't awesome until it ships and actually proves its as good as people seem to think it will be, but up until this piont guerrilla have no reason to be as 'popular' as they seem to be, anyone can make great graphics, but it takes a good developer to make a great game with great gameplay and things to back that up like story and sound etc, and so far guerrilla has done none of that.

[Gorvi]

Guerrilla wouldn't be a speck on the gaming worlds ass if sony didn't hype the fuck out of their "alright at best" games then not only would they not be making this statement, then no one would give a shit, killzone 2 isn't awesome until it ships and actually proves its as good as people seem to think it will be, but up until this piont guerrilla have no reason to be as 'popular' as they seem to be, anyone can make great graphics, but it takes a good developer to make a great game with great gameplay and things to back that up like story and sound etc, and so far guerrilla has done none of that.
Actually, Killzone Liberation is a great game. Granted, that's only 1 out of the 3 games they've done that really is great, but it is their most recent.

[johnymitsu]

Actually, Killzone Liberation is a great game. Granted, that's only 1 out of the 3 games they've done that really is great, but it is their most recent.

well considering thats 1 out 3, its a handheld, and that otuside of some good gameplay theres little to it i'd hardly say its an idication that they're worthy of much praise, still, lots of the faults in killzone where due to the game not being finished, not that the core gameplay was particularily bad, still, the point i was making was that until killzone 2 ships, theres really not much reason to pay much atention to them. still, valid point though

[Gorvi]

well considering thats 1 out 3, its a handheld, and that otuside of some good gameplay theres little to it i'd hardly say its an idication that they're worthy of much praise, still, lots of the faults in killzone where due to the game not being finished, not that the core gameplay was particularily bad, still, the point i was making was that until killzone 2 ships, theres really not much reason to pay much atention to them. still, valid point though
Outside of good gameplay there's little to it? Isn't that what matters most?

I can see your point that they're being a bit overhyped at this point, but a lot of first party games are. It's really not much different than what we see with other first party games. The game does look good, but really none of us can pass any judgement until we get some playtime with the game.

[TeeCakes]

Sixaxis sucks. There, I've contributed to this thread.

To clarify. So far in my gaming experience with the PS3, I have yet to encounter a use of the sixaxis control scheme that I wouldn't rather use the sticks for. Most uses so far have been "gimmicky" in my mind. Though, I should clarify that I've yet to try Warhawk.

As for the storage, I'm not entirely sure about that one. I suppose if you leave it uncompressed you might be able to stream it faster? Hence, the larger size? (I'm ignorant on that technical aspect).

I liked the use of the Sixaxis in the Fable demo on the PSN, the motion sensing moves control a lot better than the majority of 1st-gen (not 1st party) Wii games that I've played IMO.

[Dukefrukem]

I have mixed feelings about SixAxiS. My first inclination is that it was a poor attempt to combat the Wii, in some last minute gimmick attempt... but steering Jeeps in Call of Duty 3, shaking off monsters in Resistance, flying dragons in Lair... it wakes you up... keeps you immersed in the game... i dont want to overuse it, but i dont mind that its there

[Stormwatcher]

ive never equated game media size with quality.

I do equate game media size with possiblity.


Imagine a GTA game with an almost erie live like radio, that will report of actions happening in the game. Or just say a days worth of music or more. Im just giving very bad examples here but im sure you gather my gist here.

You CAN do the second idea on a PC. Just dump a lot of mp3s in the USER folder, and voilá.

[grognard66]

This is from the school of thought that if you repeat something (whether true or not) enough times people will believe it just because of the repetition. Sadly, there are a lot of Sony fanboys who gobble this stuff up. Sixxaxis is a gimmick and there is not a single game that shows the motion control is sensitive enough to support anything but those most board gestures making it pointless.

Needing Blu-Ray is also a joke. The only reason that particular level would require 2 GB of space is because Blu-Ray uses a 10-year old compression codec (MPEG 2). Like PS3's online philosophy Sony allows a variety of compression codecs so while developers can use the superior MPEG4, etc. they "encourage" developers to use the older codec so they can tout their line that all that space is needed.

Finally, Guerilla has yet to make even one decent game so I'll wait until this game actually launches and gets reviewed before getting hyped for this one.

[Gorvi]

Sixxaxis is a gimmick and there is not a single game that shows the motion control is sensitive enough to support anything but those most board gestures making it pointless.
Motorstorm and Warhawk say hi.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Motorstorm and Warhawk say hi.

But their overall market impact says low. ZING!

[KidCactus]

Sixxaxis is a gimmick and there is not a single game that shows the motion control is sensitive enough to support anything but those most board gestures making it pointless.
I just love how this mantra is repeated over and over, as if saying it again and again will eventually make it true.

[Skyelan]

Don't be silly Gorvi, everyone knows that good gameplay is the LAST thing we should worry about when playing a game. I mean, who needs gameplay when you have ninja chickens?

I just love how this mantra is repeated over and over, as if saying it again and again will eventually make it true.

Well well... Finally Sony is having one of THEIR ideas ripped off. :D

[Gorvi]

Don't be silly Gorvi, everyone knows that good gameplay is the LAST thing we should worry about when playing a game. I mean, who needs gameplay when you have ninja chickens?
Ninja chickens you say? Preposterous! No such state of gaming perfection exists!

[TeeCakes]

Ninja chickens you say? Preposterous! No such state of gaming perfection exists!

A man can dream, though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez1IgYWkzs8