2K Stands Down Over DRM

[Narcissus]

Whiner power has won over at the 2K boards prompting a re-evaluation of their DRM policy (http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6979), increasing the strongly-criticised limitation of 2 installations to 5. In addition, they have plans to release an application that will 'free' previously used installs.
2K increased the maximum computers you can install the game simultaneously on from 2 to 5. We are also preparing a new “revoke application” that will allow you to de-authorize computers so that you may move the game to another computer without "using up" one of these activations. This increase in the limit will cover most users' issues, and the revoke application should alleviate remaining concerns.Even big business shrinks in the face of Internet whine.

[KingGorilla]

I say again, why does the box, the web site, and the Steam description mention NONE of this? I want a big, fucking sticker right next to the 2K logo saying that this game contains Sony SecuRom copy protection software.

EDIT: Propers to Valve, the Steam page notes this.

[SuicideKing]

In this case though I daresay it was legitimate whine. Especially given how I lost myself one activation due to ignorance. Installed in vista, dualbooted to xp to use the fov fix, had to reactivate, however, no uninstall keys were added to reg, so poof there goes activation to not be reclaimed, if I understand the system correctly.

[jacktion]

Wow, the original post is really anti-consumer. I guess if you love big corporations giving us crap in return for our valuable dollars then you love DRM.
I think that people should be able to buy something and use it. Call me crazy but these companies that just make our lives difficult after paying them money should wise up.

[KingGorilla]

Wow, the original post is really anti-consumer. I guess if you love big corporations giving us crap in return for our valuable dollars then you love DRM.
I think that people should be able to buy something and use it. Call me crazy but these companies that just make our lives difficult after paying them money should wise up.

I may need to clarify myself. I do not have a problem with incorporating copy safeguards, I do not have a problem with the LATEST incarnation of the SecuRom software. The software, itself, is a far cry(pun) from StarForce. Your Windows OEM and "Student Edition" Office products utilize a similar piece of software. What I, and I feel many, take exception to is the lack of notification on just what is inside of the disc that we are buying, and installing. SecuRom will not brick your CD drive, or take up cycles, etc. In itself, it is a reasonable measure to prevent theft of a game, or illegal distribution.

[ZephidsEmbrace]

Very impressed with 2K on this. Most companies would have let people whine until the game was in the $5 bargain bin; but here they are, 2 days after release admitting that they were too strict. Props to them.

[Johan]

DRM doesn't work. It stops legit consumers from enjoying their legit purchases, while the factories in Asia and elsewhere churn out billions of illegal pieces of software and the torrent sites distribute at will.

Stupid fucking mess.

[captainstrombosis]

The OP is sucking a lot of corporate cock in the origional post.

Sorry, I'm not against copy protection, but this kind of bullshit people are having getting an ENTIRELY singleplayer game to work because it requires online activation isn't something that should be tolerated. 2k heard the demands of the gamers and saw it was wise to do as they wished.

I think it's great 2k made a mistake and chose to fix it. That's the right way to do things.

[TrackZero]

Very impressed with 2K on this. Most companies would have let people whine until the game was in the $5 bargain bin; but here they are, 2 days after release admitting that they were too strict. Props to them.

Bang on. They made a mistake and owned up to it, a rare thing.

[Dr.Finger]

Please.

I'm begging you guys.

No more BioShock news.

For at least a little while?

Please?

[Narcissus]

Wow, the original post is really anti-consumer. I guess if you love big corporations giving us crap in return for our valuable dollars then you love DRM.
I think you're either reading too far into my words, or not far enough.

I think this is a great result for consumer power, and serves as an excellent example of how we can stand up to faceless corporations if we make ourselves heard.

[Heretic Machine]

Dude, someone predicted this exact outcome in one of the other threads.

[captainstrombosis]

Please.

I'm begging you guys.

No more BioShock news.

For at least a little while?

Please?

Just wait untill Halo 3....

[Narcissus]

Please.

I'm begging you guys.

No more BioShock news.

For at least a little while?

Please?
I have to say I long expected this game to be critically acclaimed, but to dive at retail. Glad to be proved wrong. It's grown into a monster.

[Stooby]

This type of copy protection is so pointless. There is already a crack out for it. People are already playing their downloaded copies. Why would they go with this stupid activation. The standard safedisk protection that requires the original legit cd worked just as well at preventing unknowledgeable people from installing the game on their friends computers so their friends could play.

Seriously, can anyone explain the benefit of this copy protection scheme. The only thing it has done is cause a backlash. The cracks for the game appeared in the same amount of time it would have taken for the standard old copy protection.

[Dr.Finger]

Just wait untill Halo 3....I cannot see any circumstance under which there will be as many Halo 3 threads. Halo is a lot of things, but controversial isn't one of them. The BioShock news now isn't about the quality of the game so much as the various shitstorms raging now around it.

[ZeroOmegaZX]

I think you're either reading too far into my words, or not far enough.

I think this is a great result for consumer power, and serves as an excellent example of how we can stand up to faceless corporations if we make ourselves heard.

na, you claim they were overwhelmed by whining when the DRM is a serious issue for some enthusiasts or some testing to game on multiple PC's or Dual boot senarios. I wouldda liked to have it on my laptop, and 2 desktops, one with XP and with Vista, ya know like i can do with any other game. Pop the dvd in, run its check and off to gaming glory. The fact that you can't is a fucking shame. Its too bad people won't boycott because of this. Just imagine if future software and other games start using this. You have to realize the big picture. if you would have tp uninstall every piece of software from your PC before you reformatted wtf?

[Bahamut]

Eh, it's not really whining, but enforcing consumer prerogative. That said, kudos to 2K for making things a bit more reasonable, although I still despise that there's a limit at all. I still don't think there should be any such restriction for PC games, and will still refuse to buy any that contains such security measures.

That said, I can't wait to eventually buy it for the 360 still.

[Narcissus]

I cannot see any circumstance under which there will be as many Halo 3 threads. Halo is a lot of things, but controversial isn't one of them. The BioShock news now isn't about the quality of the game so much as the various shitstorms raging now around it.
To some extent the controversy is a consequence of its popularity. We'll probably see plenty of 'Halo 3 Reviewed 8/10' threads too. :p

[Stooby]

na, you claim they were overwhelmed by whining when the DRM is a serious issue for some enthusiasts or some testing to game on multiple PC's or Dual boot senarios. I wouldda liked to have it on my laptop, and 2 desktops, one with XP and with Vista, ya know like i can do with any other game. Pop the dvd in, run its check and off to gaming glory. The fact that you can't is a fucking shame. Its too bad people won't boycott because of this. Just imagine if future software and other games start using this. You have to realize the big picture. if you would have tp uninstall every piece of software from your PC before you reformatted wtf?

When that happens I will just have to crack all the software I buy. I already crack most of the software I buy anyway. I don't want to have to keep track of the damn DVD after I install a game. I want to install the game, put the disk back in its case and put that case on my shelf where the disk won't get damaged or lost. Since the game publishers won't let me do that I go and download the crack for every game I buy.

[Heretic Machine]

I cannot see any circumstance under which there will be as many Halo 3 threads. Halo is a lot of things, but controversial isn't one of them. The BioShock news now isn't about the quality of the game so much as the various shitstorms raging now around it.

That is a sign of quality. We wouldn't have multiple topics on the front page about DRM and widescreen support right now if this were a shitty, throw-away game.

[Narcissus]

na, you claim they were overwhelmed by whining
I thought this was Evil Avatar? Whiner in this case is interchangeable with consumer, and my opinion in italics following the story claims a victory over big business, albeit in a sardonic, evil tone.

[The Continental]

Yet another incidence of draconian DRM measures hurting no one but the consumer. Chances are I could check any number of trackers this very moment and find several Bioshock releases that circumvent this crap entirely, yet it's the paying customers taking it in the ass... Again.

[Tabasco]

It's really cool that they are listening to our concerns. I'm pretty sure most companies wouldn't respond this fast.

[Narcissus]

Yet another incidence of draconian DRM measures hurting no one but the consumer. Chances are I could check any number of trackers this very moment and find several Bioshock releases that circumvent this crap entirely, yet it's the paying customers taking it in the ass... Again.
I don't entirely agree with the notion that no-one is hurt besides legitimate users by DRM. This game was uncracked up until release day and beyond, and that alone is probably incentive enough for other publishers to persist with it. Game releases aren't entirely dissimilar to movies and the money they generate on opening weekends.

However, I think it was a step too far this time, a mistake we've seen before and we'll see countless times again. DRM is only tolerable when you don't know it's there.

[pizzatime]

Just wait untill Halo 3....


We won't hear any Halo 3 complaints because PC will be out of the picture, not to mention that even though the game isn't out and looks exactly the same as every other Halo, it is already dubbed (on the internets) the best game ever. Everyone on the internet, especially here on EA, enjoys humping their console while shoving a controller up their ass, because it's cool to hate PCs and PC gaming is "dead". Everything always gets blown out of proportion on the internet, anyone that has a problem whines, while people without problems (99%) try to stay away from the mass of retards and downies. In fact, if you consider how many copies have already been sold, and how many complaints from UNIQUE users there are circulating on various intarwebs forums, the percentage of kids having problems I'm sure is well under 1%.

As lame as copy protection is, I've yet to come across someone I personally know that has had a problem with a legitimate copy of a game (minus starforce). What really happened is the Bioshock authentication servers went down for 2 minutes, everyone on the internet pooped a brick into their diapers and went on an uncontrollable whining binge and fit of rage. Why would you even need to install this game more than twice? If the installer crashed, something is wrong with your hardware, or OS, not your copy of Bioshock. If you wanted to put it on 3 computers, buy another copy. Also, one obvious point here is, if you bought it from a retail store, you can go exchange your copy for a new one if you have to (NO retail store will deny you that) such as in the case of nulling your key.

[captainstrombosis]

Very weak attempt at trolling, Pizzatime. That or you ride the shortbus to school.

[pizzatime]

Go back to playing your console. I'll play games on my PC now.

[Johan]

Everything always gets blown out of proportion on the internet

Oh the irony...

Remember this, next time you post!

[Narcissus]

Go back to playing your console. I'll play games on my PC now.
In a mask, hat and cape, sporting a heroic grin?

Tada-tadaa!

[lockwoodx]

DRM doesn't work. It stops legit consumers from enjoying their legit purchases, while the factories in Asia and elsewhere churn out billions of illegal pieces of software and the torrent sites distribute at will.

Stupid fucking mess.

You win this thread. Pure genius

[Redline]

Copy protection is typically meant to deter casual piracy. Jim Bloggs doing a copy for Joe Public using his (also pirated) copy of Nero.

Oh wait, this isn't 1996, and now Jim and Joe both know how to use torrents and P2P in general. Oops. I'm afraid those that insist on a brick and mortar purchase will have to put up with this crap until the world goes totally digital distribution (and even then, there'll be some form of protection).

If I bought this game, I'd still be online looking for a crack. Reason? I've had far too many problems with copy protection in the past that have degraded my experience, including performance problems. If I buy something, I want to experience it all, and not take a chance that the copy protection is somehow interrupting it.

But then, I rarely buy any game on release anymore and typically wait some months before doing so. The price goes down, a working crack is out to remove the CP (sometimes from the distributor/developer themselves in the form of a later patch) and many of the bugs have been fixed. It pays to wait.

[f1sh3r]

why would you need to install your game on 5 computers at once? yarrr...that is a good question.

[harbo]

Its too bad people won't boycott because of this.

They won't? I for one haven't bought a single game except WoW in years, and I was really hoping that this one would be worthy of showing my support but I'm now 100% going warez it.

[GrinR]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. They made your chains a bit longer and lighter and there is celebration?

Does no one remember a time when there were no chains?

[pizzatime]

They won't? I for one haven't bought a single game except WoW in years, and I was really hoping that this one would be worthy of showing my support but I'm now 100% going warez it.

Netcops is on the case.

[Feltoar]

secureROM does install a rootkit. See: http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=securomob9.jpg

If you want to run the scan for yourself: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/Utilities/RootkitRevealer.mspx

Edit: If their coding is so buggy that something as simple as key deactivation on uninstallation doesnt work, Im worried of security holes which have popped open as a result.

[UnderHero5]

secureROM does install a rootkit. See: http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=securomob9.jpg

If you want to run the scan for yourself: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/Utilities/RootkitRevealer.mspx

Edit: If their coding is so buggy that something as simple as key deactivation on uninstallation doesnt work, Im worried of security holes which have popped open as a result.

I wouldn't say that's conclusive of a rootkit.
I mean... the link you posted even says
RootkitRevealer is an advanced rootkit detection utility. It runs on Windows NT 4 and higher and its output lists Registry and file system API discrepancies that may indicate the presence of a user-mode or kernel-mode rootkit.
Doesn't mean it's necessarily a rootkit, just because that app finds something they might indicate that it could be.

That said, who knows, maybe it is. I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet though.

[Moloch666]

At least they have listened to the consumer and loosen their grip a little.
I'll give them points for that.

[cppcrusader]

I say again, why does the box, the web site, and the Steam description mention NONE of this? I want a big, fucking sticker right next to the 2K logo saying that this game contains Sony SecuRom copy protection software.

EDIT: Propers to Valve, the Steam page notes this.

While its not a giant sticker stating it, the box clearly says internet connection required for activation. On the LE box its on both the big ass box it comes in and the dvd case under the system requirements. Its noted on the system requirements on the listing at Gamestop, which I pointed out last week in one of the Bioshock threads.

[ElectricMonk]

This whole debacle is precisely why I bought this game on 360. Just don't care about sorting through this bs anymore.

[reimomo]

They won't? I for one haven't bought a single game except WoW in years, and I was really hoping that this one would be worthy of showing my support but I'm now 100% going warez it.

Oh noes, this copy protection encouraged someone who never pays for software to steal software! Gee, your input is extraordinarily relevant!

[Serapth]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. They made your chains a bit longer and lighter and there is celebration?

Does no one remember a time when there were no chains?

Not really. I remember copy protection dating back to the Apple II. I remember having to look up stupid fucking phrases in a book, I remember having to align fucking code wheels, I remember disk based copy protection the wore out as you used to the disk.

If you take off the rose coloured glasses, you would realize things have actually improved over time.

[Telefrog]

Not really. I remember copy protection dating back to the Apple II. I remember having to look up stupid fucking phrases in a book, I remember having to align fucking code wheels, I remember disk based copy protection the wore out as you used to the disk.

If you take off the rose coloured glasses, you would realize things have actually improved over time.

I also remember looking up codewords, or in the case of Loom - musical notes :D, and I have to honestly say that I prefer that to this kind of shit.

[Serapth]

I also remember looking up codewords, or in the case of Loom - musical notes :D, and I have to honestly say that I prefer that to this kind of shit.

You obviously don't lose shit as often as I do then....

[51|RandoM]

The DRM is still there. If it was the antichrist on Tuesday, it is still the antichrist today.

Make up your mind, people.

[Ancalagon]

yeah, they loosened the restrictions somewhat, they didnt remove them.

its a sad world we live in, where pirated software is healthier for your system than legal software.

[51|RandoM]

its a sad world we live in, where pirated software is healthier for your system than legal software.

I could start seeding gamecopyworld with nocd cracks that rewrite your partition table(s) if that would make it a happier world.

[Ancalagon]

but you wouldnt do that because you wouldnt gain anything from it, and if you did, the crack would be pulled from the website pretty soon.

[Morangie]

but you wouldnt do that because you wouldnt gain anything from it...
You haven't been on the internet very long, have you?

[Shadowstorm]

SecuROM is still a rootkit. DRM sucks.

In all honesty, I really am glad that 2K listens to their customers, but Bioshock's implementation of SecuROM DRM technology does nothing except hurt legitimate customers.

With DRM, the pirates will inevitably crack and still get the media/content, and the legit users are stranded with broken media pushing to pirated versions that are online. Without DRM, everybody gets access, everything can be copied and used on an unlimited number of computers/devices, legit users get a more value-filled product, and pirates still don't pay.

I like that they patched Bioshock to give it a "5 by 5" plan (as described by community manager Elizabeth Tobey), but if it's my game, I should be able to do what I want with it. I don't want 2K Games or any other corporation telling me what I can and can not do with something that I have legitimately purchased.

I also find it ironic that 2K's PC FAQ site (http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/pc_faq.html) says that SecuROM is not a rootkit, even after the site describes a rootkit being exactly what SecuROM is. Why legit customers have to go through these hoops just to play the game is beyond me.

Again, I appreciate 2K listening to its customers. Sadly, not many do this. Still doesn't change the fact that DRM sucks.

[51|RandoM]

but you wouldnt do that because you wouldnt gain anything from it, and if you did, the crack would be pulled from the website pretty soon.

Obviously I'd put a delay or a trigger in it, to introduce just enough time so that you wouldn't know if it was the crack or something else you'd done.

Start the cracked .exe, it checks to see how many save games you have, if saved games > 5 then it replaces any of the commonly used .exe files in Windows/system32 with a .bat version that runs something along the lines of:

echo yes > yes.txt
format /q c: < yes.txt

That is how easy it used to be, might not be that easy nowadays, but it is still trivial for somebody with a bit of experience.

[Voodoo]

Obviously I'd put a delay or a trigger in it, to introduce just enough time so that you wouldn't know if it was the crack or something else you'd done.

Start the cracked .exe, it checks to see how many save games you have, if saved games > 5 then it replaces any of the commonly used .exe files in Windows/system32 with a .bat version that runs something along the lines of:

echo yes > yes.txt
format /q c: < yes.txt

That is how easy it used to be, might not be that easy nowadays, but it is still trivial for somebody with a bit of experience.

It would be much worse to have a trojan that deletes all the p0rn instead... Messing with system files, that's child's play... A geek loosing their entire p0rn collection - you are talking severe breakdowns.

[Stormwatcher]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. They made your chains a bit longer and lighter and there is celebration?

Does no one remember a time when there were no chains?

The imaginary times of neverwhen?

Games always had copy protection schemes. I actually glad they ditched the manual page crap.

[lockwoodx]

Obviously I'd put a delay or a trigger in it, to introduce just enough time so that you wouldn't know if it was the crack or something else you'd done.

Start the cracked .exe, it checks to see how many save games you have, if saved games > 5 then it replaces any of the commonly used .exe files in Windows/system32 with a .bat version that runs something along the lines of:

echo yes > yes.txt
format /q c: < yes.txt

That is how easy it used to be, might not be that easy nowadays, but it is still trivial for somebody with a bit of experience.


If your smart enough to write virisus why are you dumb enough to support sony? lol

[The_Reckoning]

Obviously I'd put a delay or a trigger in it, to introduce just enough time so that you wouldn't know if it was the crack or something else you'd done.

Start the cracked .exe, it checks to see how many save games you have, if saved games > 5 then it replaces any of the commonly used .exe files in Windows/system32 with a .bat version that runs something along the lines of:

echo yes > yes.txt
format /q c: < yes.txt

That is how easy it used to be, might not be that easy nowadays, but it is still trivial for somebody with a bit of experience.

Virus checkers are far more advanced now. They'll find your "bit of experience" code immediately, delete the file, the website will get notified and it'll be taken down in less than an hour. Or even, the site MIGHT have their own virus checkers!

If what you described was how it worked, how come the sweeping majority of people are fine?

[51|RandoM]

Virus checkers are far more advanced now. They'll find your "bit of experience" code immediately, delete the file, the website will get notified and it'll be taken down in less than an hour. Or even, the site MIGHT have their own virus checkers!

If what you described was how it worked, how come the sweeping majority of people are fine?

Actually, virus checkers aren't any smarter than they've ever been. They're fingerprint databases in all practical cases. Heuristics will go a bit further but people seldom use them because of all the false positives.

How hard for me is it to create something like this that doesn't match any existing fingerprint? Not hard at all...

The sweeping majority of people are fine because a) the sweeping majority of people don't bother with cracks, and b) people who can do stuff like this have better things to do with their time.

The death of the floppy and the advent of port-blocking by default on even the cheapest of routers have done just as much as all the virus checkers in the world in both a) stemming the spread and b) making it less worthwhile to create stuff like this in the first place.

[Serapth]

Actually, virus checkers aren't any smarter than they've ever been. They're fingerprint databases in all practical cases. Heuristics will go a bit further but people seldom use them because of all the false positives.

How hard for me is it to create something like this that doesn't match any existing fingerprint? Not hard at all...

The sweeping majority of people are fine because a) the sweeping majority of people don't bother with cracks, and b) people who can do stuff like this have better things to do with their time.

The death of the floppy and the advent of port-blocking by default on even the cheapest of routers have done just as much as all the virus checkers in the world in both a) stemming the spread and b) making it less worthwhile to create stuff like this in the first place.


Besides, you arent actually writing a virus. You have no intention of spreading from computer to computer. Your actual vector for spreading is the greed of people using cracks. If you have no need for you code to propigate it is alot easier to get around virus detection. Given that most people run as admin, once that EXE is clicked it can pretty much do whatever it wants to your system.

[Beelzebud]

Ironically enough, the Xbox 360 version is the only one you can pirate right now.